The End of the "Job" as We Know It! What's that mean for DEX?? Phil Kirschner Is Back

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Yeah, I was. I was lived in London in twenty
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ten when the US and England were in the same
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group and we were the last time.
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Yeah yeah, which was where we played each other one
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one and Pickford let the ball go like through his
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legs or something.
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It was, Yeah, my favorite part of that whole game,
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even though I was in London. The New York Post
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paper front page headline the next day, what us.
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Wings one one?
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That's the mind?
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Hey it change makers and welcome to the Deck Show
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with Tom mc grath. Let's get into.
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It, Hi, change makers, Welcome back to the Deck Show.
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Look.
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I want to begin by thanking everybody who last week.
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Joined us for our first ever AMA on the New
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Next Thing subreddit with show regular and favorite Jeffrey Right.
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It was.
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It was a lot of fun. We already enjoyed it,
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and jeff was just as ever, the perfect, the perfect get,
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the perfect interlocutor for so many people who pitched in,
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and actually the resulting conversation is sufficiently entertaining to be
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worth a look in hindsight even if you weren't able
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to join life. So I'm going to put a put
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a link in a show notes so you can click
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over and if you haven't heard of the subreddit, or
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you haven't had a chance to give us a follow
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yet over there, please please follow that link and do so.
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We'd love to have you as a part of that community,
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as we love to have you as a part of
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this community. And speaking of this community, it's always a
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pleasure to welcome a guest back. I'm pretty sure this
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gentleman is here for the second time. I've got to
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write excellent, excellent philm me. He is Phil Kirshner, and
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he's got Phil. I would describe, I would describe your
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specialism and why we love to talk to you. You
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have a phrase right, which is I think very American.
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It's like the intersection of h it and real estate.
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But you just mean you mean the real world. You
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mean the brick and mortar. You know, the workplace per se.
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Per se yes, the work place and all of its follies.
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But you go, as we know, as we're going to
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see you. Your foot goes beyond those confines as well.
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But you're founder of PK Consulting, and if there's a
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delighted to have you back, And if there's anything I
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haven't said that surely has been that surely is please
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add to your introduction and introduce yourself.
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Oh thank you, yes, very nice to be back. It
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was almost two years ago now here when I had
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just left McKinsey where it was my last like real role.
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So there I was sat between the real estate and
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people practices as an expert come by way of the
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workplace strategy world. So think a lot about the built environment.
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Even though I'm not an architect or designer. My background
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is actually in technology, which may be relevant of the
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AI parts of the conversation today. And maybe the other
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thing is what is different for me this time being
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an independent consultant versus the last time I did it
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before John McKinzie, after having left we work which was filed,
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is that I have a newsletter now called the Work Line,
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the tagline for which specifically is helping people lead across
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the lines with modern work because I think the answers
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to many of the questions today come in the margins
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in between our traditional silos like HR and I T
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and wherever the heck you put real estate or communications
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or everybody else.
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One hundred percent And yes you are you know uniquely
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exit your experience leads you uniquely suited to occupy this intersection, right,
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and if not recklessly candid about my ailies about it.
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So that's good.
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So, yeah, almost two years ago, and it's a little
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it's a little layer of and I thought, actually because
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I felt like when we last spoke it was still
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the aftermath of the paw pandemic. And I guess that's
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true to some degree in twenty twenty four, right, But
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looking back now at that at the twenty twenties, you know, per.
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Se again, you know, just just more broadly, what do
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you think we've got wrong and right?
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So far? Is decade in our reactions to events and
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our expectations of the consequences of those events which have
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defined the decades so far in terms of the work workplace?
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Yeah, what did we get wrong and right?
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So?
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What did we get right? In terms I guess who
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the we is right? But if you if you generalize,
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I think one of the core things that people may
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have gotten wrong, especially in the early twenty twenty you know,
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still feeling the sting of COVID time was that hybrid
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and remote was the first and only ever definition of
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what future work is like. This is it, guys, We're
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here the big changes here, and maybe we're not paying
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attention prior to March With twenty twenty about the things
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that were being defined by the thought leaders and consultants
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out there as potential future of work challenges, one of
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which being automation and another one being let's just call
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it like more fluid workforces, contractors, gaid workers, consultants, all that.
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And one of those two is now very present in
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the form of automation and AI. The other one is
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lingering in the background and advancing slowly. But I guess
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that's the Maybe it was the one risk leaders who
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think this is the thing right now and there were
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no other things before. They might not be other things next.
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And when we finish this, when we're done dealing with
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the hybrid and remote thing, that we will move on
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and even if another thing comes our way later, we
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will not have to tackle or wrestle with that previous
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era of future what is future of work? So that's
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probably the biggest concern, that the all of these trends
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are not being taken together, and like clients that I
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talked to aren't trying to stitch the thread between them
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two realize what may become a continual like consumer orientation
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and lack of predictability for our work day to think
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a little more holistically about the experience that we have
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to create going forward.
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And you know, unembarrassed, have in part reached out to
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you because since we last spoke, you know, AI has
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entered the picture pretty pretty conclusively explosively, and you've written very,
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very brilliantly on its impact, as I say, in a
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broader sense than just what it means for the workplace,
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although that is a dimension of it, of its of
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its influence and impact. With fascinated to ask you about,
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So what changes have you already observed, not just in
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the technology itself, but in how organizations are consequently operating,
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how work itself is getting done, and how people are
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now planning, and how organizations are now planning for the
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future in that intersection that we described at the top
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of the convert.
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Yeah, look, so AI or generative AI, I'll say specifically, right,
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AI is not new. This version of AI is new
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or new into the mass market anyway. Is similar to
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the last kind of wave of major change with hybrid
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and remote in that it is a resistible change. If
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you tell someone I want you to sit here or
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I want you to go there. Even if you say,
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if you don't do what I'd say, I'm going to
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fire you and you've got to do this and that,
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or you won't be promot like if you're the most
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tracconing about it, that still doesn't necessarily mean that the
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person's going to do it, or if they do, they
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might kind of phone in the effort. It's not the
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same as an organizational change like oh, we've married two
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departments now that were never together before. Some employee may
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not like the change, but they can't just sit on
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their hands and pretend it didn't happen, like congratulations, you
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work for Bob. Now, that's just that's done before you
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ever found out. But telling someone I want you to
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behave differently that you did yesterday or that you want
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to makes it a resistible change. So I see similar
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views in demandate And to kind of answer your question,
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there's a few ways that I think organizations are approaching
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AI transformation. One is, oh, no, everybody else is doing it,
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and we're in an economic moment where I'm being asked
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to do less or do more with less, so go go,
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go go go, Like I use AI, Please use AI.
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Please do it all the time, you'll have to do it.
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And not only does that create an environment where people
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who are not sort of trained properly and change management
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programs are not executed properly, who may explicitly or or
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just sort of passively resist the change and not do it,
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or do it at the bare minimum level. You get
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barely entergy. Maybe the employee gets a couple hours of
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their time back, but the organization does not benefit in
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any way. Then there's organizations that are leaning maybe on
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the far the other side, very very hard into the
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power of these technologies, much like they might have in
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past digital transformations. And uh, you know RPA kind of
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process automation shop for efficiency logic right, putting AI and
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spending lots of money with consultants and implementation specialists. At
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the at the business of the business end, we make widgets,
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so we are we're putting all the horse power that
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we can into that widget making machine, which in truth,
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for a large organization, only a small percentage of the
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actual employees might interact with it on a day to
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day basis. And then they're ignoring the general knowledge worker set,
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you know, accounting and marketing and operations and everyone else
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who doesn't make the widgets that supports the company and
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can leave them out. Unfortunately, in terms of AI fluency, training, adoption,
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and the most interesting organizations maybe in the middle, are
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the ones who are recognizing this is not just an
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opportunity to help individual workers write more emails or write
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them faster, but a chance to tease a part and
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break and destroy every legacy assumption that we have about
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how the work has to happen. Because when allowed to
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do what it can do these deenerative AI tools And
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I love this phrasing I saw on a newsletter a
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couple of days ago. It's like something like, it's like
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hydrochloric acid for organizational boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, it's just bleeds
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across right, the lines of people and processes that need
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to make out like business outcomes. So if you lead
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into it and you're willing to prioritize the redesign of work,
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give teams not only the training, but the change support
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and embedded call it forward deployed engineers or whatever you want.
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People who can understand and think in an unbiased way,
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how might this work be doable now in a way
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that was not doable yesterday? Given these tools with the
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social scaffolding for the employees to go along on the ride,
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because it's really hard to avoid all the news articles
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about people being laid off supposedly because of AI, So
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you're asking them to implement something that is fearful for
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the security of their drought.
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At same time, let's come back to this in just
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a minute, Phil, very very interesting couple of things you've
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raised there, But let's think about the what we dead
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the top of a discussion workplace per se and its
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impact on currents of like hybrid work. Do you think
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ai jen AI reinforces the case for hybrid work, undermines it,
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or fundamentally changes the conversation altogether. Is that another silo
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that's starting to disintegrate.
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Yeah, I think two things. Maybe one the companies that
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are having the most success I think with let's just
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call it egentic or like AI assistant based augmented work,
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not outbreak replacing people, but you know, all of us
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having our little agent on our shoulder. The ones who
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are having an easiest time at that are the ones who,
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convenient Lady, also have the most not necessarily hybrid friendly
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work practices, but remote friendly work practices, which has a
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lot to do with documentation and asynchronous work and consistent
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ways of working. Because if you and I are pretty
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consistent with the kinds of channels that we use for
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certain kinds of information or project tracking, and if a
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company has a pretty good called handbook or playbook for
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who is who and what is what and what's important
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today and what we do and don't do, or registers
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of major decisions that were made anything written down, which
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is the hallmark of the most successful fully remote organizations.
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You layer AI on top of that and you get
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real supercharged work because it knows where to look at,
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knows what the decision, knows who does what, It knows
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how to help. So companies that went hybrid but really
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defined it as you don't have to be here all
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the time. We would prefer if you were, but you
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don't have to. Maybe we upgrade the office a little
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bit to support that, but like rarely did the more
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difficult work of making it easier for people to not
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be together.
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Ready, you have to explain my last one again, for it's.
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Both things right. So if I if I'm a company
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where we used to be in all the time and
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which was never really all the time, but it was
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most of the time. And now I've conceded to say,
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not all of you wanted to be here all the time.
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Your commuter is really long, our office is okay, So
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I will allow you to not be here some of
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the time. It's a concession, and they are not also
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saying I am going to make it easier for us
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to do our work and for work to continue in
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the company, to continue growing and being successful when we
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are not. He I'm going to put in my effort
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into making you want to be here and trying to
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convince you that there are benefits of when you are here,
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or make the office nicer when you are here. Yes,
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I am not inclined to continue investing in the way
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work happens completely independently of where you happen to be
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at any moment.
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Yes, okay.
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And very few companies I think have taken that like
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remote first stance, where they do the work on the
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work and then you continue to think about the built
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environment too. Right, so the work has come first because
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the bar is very low for me to not go
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in right now, whether kids, contractors, whatever. So that's how
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they really related to sort of hybrid one, but then
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two we were already saying like the office is better
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when we are together, but many people were still coming
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in to do individual work. And now these generative AI
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tools are like further shipping away the things that felt
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kind of together but were in truth very individually oriented,
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and are really amplifying that, like we should be together
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for things that are truly human, which means like hands
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off keyboards. I want my agent in the background doing
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the BAU work. I want to wake up to very
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minimal pains and nudges that I have to do certain
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things and push things along, and that you know, it's
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going to raise the bar for what will make me
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want to come to be with someone and therefore raise
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the bar what that environment will be like to support
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us when we're there.
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I sense a parallel between your concept of was it
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resistible change as it's kind of and the way companies
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have managed that issue of resistible change with regards to
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style of work or place of work, with maybe the
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approach to facilitating AI transformation in the organizations. You know,
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what are those parallels, Where do they overlap and where
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don't they.
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Well, I'm change is hard, and organizations are notoriously bad
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at change management, like I've been forever McKinsey and change
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the leadership sessions. There's a slide they can picture that
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a colleague used to use about you know, close to
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two thirds of changes fail to achieve their objectives. How
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long has that statistic been true? And it's like decades basically,
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So we haven't gotten any better at this. And that
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was when we were thinking about change management in a
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more traditional sense of go from point A to point B.
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Now it's more of a change mindset, like I need
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you to be bulletproof to uncertainty and at all times
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understanding the reason we are undertaking various changes and being
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more truthful with people about the very definition of the
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change that we're undertaking at the very least, is this
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something that we've elected to do ourselves. Is this something
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that we have to do because someone or something told
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us that we have to do, or like if we
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don't do it, there will be a problem. And in
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particularly because of COVID, I think like all the masks
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came off for executives right in deep pandemic time, Like
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my grandma was not okay, your grandma is not okay.
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We're all human right now, and so employees saw what
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actual authenticity and transparency looked like in many organizations, and
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so when the masks went back on, and now it's like, oh, economically,
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the power is very much with the employer. And you
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say you're laying us off because of AI or you
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say I have to come back to the office because
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it's better for me, and a kind of you know,
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the BS radar goes up very quickly. Really, that doesn't
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that doesn't track with what I'm feeling. And you have
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not given me any evidence to suggest that I should
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behave a certain way because of a good reason. And
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we we we sense the inauthenticity. There's lower trust in
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organizations that you're seeing from organizations like Adeline with their
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trust barometer every year, and that makes it harder to
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define and establishment of the terms of the change before
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you jump to what is normally defined as change mandement,
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which is communications. And if you look still at most
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change management roles that are posted to I see anyway
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if very communication oriented, tell the employees what we want
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to tell them and what we want them to be
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happy about that we're doing, not spend more time upstream
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on you know, pro actively identifying what might be resistance
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issues being honest with the definition, establishing a clear north
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star vision, building a coalition amongst leadership for their conviction
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that change, and critically getting them to behave in a
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way that models this new future. And just like with hybrid,
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you tell me I have to come in, but the
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boss doesn't or lives farther away, or you hired an
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executive who's remote when you told us we don't do
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remote anymore. It's the same feelings saying like you're telling
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me I have to be using all these AI tools
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all the time, and yet I keep going to these
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meetings that feel like they're being run the old way
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by people who aren't using these tools and have not
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themselves change how they are working. So I resist.
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So that the.
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Hybrid removes the old definition of place. AI removes the
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old definition of styles.
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Yeah, and a job. It is really attacking what the
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word job means. And that's scary for sure.
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Yeah, unpack that and where the destination should be event
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organizationally for people who work in places?
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What what?
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What? What do? What do future jobs look like if
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the very notion of the job is under threat? And
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why is it important to get there? How do we
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get there soundly?
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I wish I knew the answer to this one. I
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my suspicion is it we're grinding towards greater clarity on
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roles and greater focus on outcomes. This is what has
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to be delivered, this is what I will pay you for.
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And it's the same. It sort of connects to like
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skills based hiring. Instead of oh, you went to Harvard, awesome,
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Now you're seeing more and more companies being like less
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concern that you went to Harvard and more like can
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you do this and this and this? And the A
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tools themselves may make it easier to assess people for
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particular skills in the moment. I suspect we will also
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see a greater kind of dissolution of the team in
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hierarchy structure internally, and more likely that employees will be
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gigging around kind of project to project to project and
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seeing sort of two kinds of roles emerge. One either
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people who are contributing to the effort, like and maybe
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many more of them, like flatter structures and dynamic teams.
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And now we got a contractor here and a person here,
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and sometimes we go in and sometimes we don't. We
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got a bunch of agents that have been spun up
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to help us, and that's cool, and then one person
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who is taking the accountability for the outcome. It's the
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you know, the Hollywood model a little bit. Some people say, right,
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like a bunch of people get together, we're gonna make
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a movie. Someone's the s they get the bag of money,
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or their job is to get the money, and their
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job is to make more of it than they needed
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to make the money moving the beginning, and then they go,
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you know, they get one person who's good at casting,
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and one person's going to make up, and like those
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people go find other teams and they're largely contracted vendor. Right,
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the whole thing comes together as a company for one
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moment to make one thing and then poof gone. If
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it worked well, like, you've got a higher chance of
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coming back or benefiting financially from that. It didn't work, well,
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you're gonna have a harder time finding someone who's gonna
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want you to do that next thing, right, yeah, yeah,
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which makes it more greater inequity. Right, people are really
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good will make a ton of money, and people who
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are not may struggle at least in like more traditional Roles.
394
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Yeah. Yeah.
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The concept a few years ago was called the democratization
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of work, right, and I guess it's the acceleration of
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that trend.
398
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Yeah, yeah me. Also, like someone here in the US
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or in the UK may moan like I'm I'm struggling
400
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to find a role. But is it is it good
401
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that someone in a country that may have struggled before,
402
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but who's let's say, English is pretty good and technical
403
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skills are pretty good and can compete in a global
404
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scale and make their skills marketable and be visible on
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tools like a GitHub, right, like external transparency like this
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is me. Look, I contribute, I'm here. There's trust in
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this system that they may win and someone else is
408
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going to lose, and that's hard. Most of the complaints
409
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come for the people who have had a pretty good
410
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right when you say democratization.
411
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Yes, yes, this brings us down to sort of the
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implementation of organizational change.
413
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Right.
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I thought that's an excellent definition, by way.
415
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And one of the things that caught all right was
416
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your recent article leaders can't break their own silos, and
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you mentioned in this motion of zero based organizational imagination,
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which looks even madden. Now I read my notes when
419
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I read it, So maybe breakdown what that is. I mean,
420
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that's that's like a core change management precept though, isn't it?
421
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And what does it mean when it comes to to
422
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AI transformation specific Yeah, so.
423
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I have for a while these as one that I've
424
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been writing my newsletter anchoring on interesting organizational changes that
425
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seem to blur boundaries and we get even at the
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executive level. Maybe the first splashing one was when Maderna
427
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merged HR and it together with all of this change base,
428
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we're seeing a lot more of that kind of HR
429
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and IT AI and HR transformation officers like being merged
430
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because of the nature of the beast. And I've said, like,
431
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it's difficult to break the silos, and had been thinking
432
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more of the two and three four people down from
433
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the executive maybe level, or really like hands on fighting
434
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the battle for employee experience, and maybe it had been thinking, gosh,
435
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this is really difficult the executive level. But it wasn't
436
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until Deloite put out there in the twenty twenty six
437
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Human Capital Trends Report, which covers a wide range of topics,
438
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but had this a whole chapter dedicated to the fact
439
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that the kind of the traditional was called corporate functions
440
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hr IT operations, risk finance, where I should say real
441
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estate is not called out or mentioned for reasons we
442
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:42.119
could maybe go into. But the GNA the shared services
443
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functions like maybe do for a reboot, And it leaned
444
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on a principle that I hadn't really heard invoked in
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a long time since I was a practitioner CARDSWISS a
446
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long time ago, which is this construct of running the
447
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company and changing the company, run the business, change the business,
448
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and saying maybe we're headed towards the world where a
449
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lot of the keep the lights on stuff that is
450
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functionally very similar across some of those organizations, like maybe
451
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.680
should be coming together in a different way and we
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break out. Really the strategic change strategic finance is very
453
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different than strategic it, but the running of finance and
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the running of it, especially with more agentic support and
455
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different staffing models like maybe more so much is musing
456
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that this is perhaps the direction that we have to
457
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challenge the actual silos. And it felt so real to
458
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me in part because of the lines in there about
459
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this is necessarily going to be hard because now the
460
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person who's afraid of their job is not the not
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marry and accounting. Who's being told, Oh, no, my spreadsheets
462
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can be done by copilot now and I don't have
463
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to do that. That's scary for me. But now it's
464
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the maybe it's the CFO or the CHRO, like you're
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telling me I should move twenty percent of my organization
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out or more to someone else. What does that do
467
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for me? 're seeing some executives in the case of
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a Walmart and Coca Cola, I think recently both had
469
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CEOs to are transitioning out invoking this moment we're not
470
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necessarily the best person to lead through this speed and
471
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complexity of AI power change. So maybe from the top
472
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top you're seeing a little bit of people going, am
473
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I the right person? And from the bottom worker's already
474
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being afraid of like what does AI need for me?
475
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But to challenge the silos means you need like N
476
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minus one and minus two executive leader who's willing to go.
477
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Let's just pretend for a moment that my org didn't exist,
478
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and we took all the component pieces, we put them
479
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back together differently because of similarity and how they work
480
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or how agents can support them, and then let's see
481
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what's left and where do I have that role? And
482
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that's really scary, more scary for that maybe because you
483
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know lead, you're in your career, you're more successful, you know, financially,
484
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:15.480
and what does that mean to You're like, wait, you're
485
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taking half of my responsibility away or you're suggesting that
486
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.200
half of them goes somewhere else, and what does that mean?
487
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.240
And how do you get them to feel okay about that?
488
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:28.960
So, you know, employee experience has been a big theme
489
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.079
of yours for a long time. Phil Right and ar
490
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.240
could believe a record of a lot, maybe of all
491
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.720
of your writings. So what is that what employee experience
492
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.680
becomes in this area of change? How do people come
493
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.519
to feel okay about everything that's happening to them?
494
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:46.960
Oh, that's a good yeah. I wouldn't know if that's
495
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.880
a playee experience or maybe just broader psychological safety, but
496
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:55.160
employee experience certainly, I think is due also for not
497
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:02.559
a reboot, but a revagination consistent with the sort of
498
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:05.960
greater accountability for projects and change. And I do think
499
00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.240
the organizations will put more and more power to the
500
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:10.960
edge a little bit instead of the center over time,
501
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.599
or at least the ones that need to be moving,
502
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:18.160
quicker and more agile, more responsive, more iterative, which means
503
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.599
the divine run a group like I'm ultimately responsible for
504
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.079
my outcome. So in theory, or maybe I'm more accountable
505
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:28.720
and benefiting from the outcomes that I'm driving than I
506
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:31.759
ever was. So now me as a business unit leader,
507
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:35.880
project leader, I should in theory, be more attuned to
508
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:44.480
the choices that I am making about day to day actions, rhythms,
509
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:48.200
and journeys for the people in my kind of area,
510
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.799
and how those choices and experiences are affecting the outcome.
511
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:59.640
So it's a little less of cupcakes and confetti employee
512
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.640
experiences and more about trying to connect day to day
513
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.119
behaviors to real outcomes. If someone needs to work with
514
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:13.279
the mcginsee we call this applying like shop floor logic
515
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.279
the factory floor logic to knowledge work for the first
516
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:20.640
time because maybe it's possible because of the way we
517
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:22.960
can look at data signals. But to do that, I
518
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:30.359
think is going to require a centralization of the teams
519
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:35.240
and the people who are best positioned to measure and
520
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:40.680
advise on those choices around employee experiences, not necessarily to
521
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:45.119
own it, but to make it clearer in an unbiased
522
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:50.359
fashion to the people doing the work like what matters,
523
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.279
and that i'll stems from the fact that I often
524
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:57.400
see if employee experience is owned by let's say an
525
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:01.039
HR function and you ask them about the things that
526
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:05.119
influence the employee experience, nine times out of ten they
527
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:12.559
will not invoke anything technical or spatial. It's all HR
528
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:19.160
benefit policy, engagement, survey, leadership development, which is important, but
529
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:24.119
it is not the only thing that makes employees either
530
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:26.920
you know, their change their behavior to be better for
531
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.440
themselves in the business or like working there to begin with.
532
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.039
So that's why I think pulling those things out, which
533
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.720
is a small example of the silo busting and getting
534
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.640
it out of the way the executives who are biased
535
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:42.519
to the outcome, will be better for groups that are
536
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:45.000
trying to understand the impact of the choices that they're making.
537
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.599
And when we were last, when we had our last discussion,
538
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:54.000
that that the increasing gray area between the what you
539
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:56.799
just said, the technical and the spatial was that was
540
00:32:56.839 --> 00:32:57.279
I think.
541
00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:00.519
A main mainzation.
542
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:08.160
We talk about we call the former digital employee experience here, right,
543
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:13.319
and what do you think the implications are for that concept?
544
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:17.559
As employees increasingly interact not only with apps and devices,
545
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:21.599
but with AI agents and assistance and yeah.
546
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:26.000
Even more important. Right, We're just especially because the introduction
547
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.400
of assistance and like vibe coding tools is making it
548
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.839
even easier for employees to take a consumer orientation towards work. Oh,
549
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.720
I don't like that app anymore. And like you're saying, oh,
550
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:41.400
our portal for this, that and the other thing is
551
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:43.200
really great. I don't care. I don't want to go
552
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.440
to your portal. I want my personal copilot to go
553
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.599
get the information for me and help me. So I'm
554
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:55.720
expecting like extreme interoperability, an extreme sort of service mindset
555
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.400
to me in being able to stitch together the system
556
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.720
that I want, especially if you believe that more and
557
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:09.199
more employees will be well, let's just say not employees. Right,
558
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.320
they will show up as a gig worker or a
559
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.239
consultant contractor, which means like they have some degree of
560
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.320
agency over the tooling that they are using within policy
561
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.800
driven reason, right, they're bringing their own kit. They're being
562
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:25.679
measured on outcome, so like I want to use the
563
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:29.400
tools that I want, or even employees who are switching
564
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.159
roles full time role to full time role and I
565
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:34.320
think are going to be asking more and more questions
566
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:40.239
about a tech stack even than they were before, which
567
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.000
again is a check in the box for the fully
568
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.400
remote companies because they tend to be much more transparent
569
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:52.440
about those things and public kind of career and handbook
570
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:57.079
material like this is exactly our marketing tech stack. If
571
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.719
you're coming into marketing and if you don't like one
572
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:04.320
of the tools, like we're totally relying on HubSpot or something,
573
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.639
and you just you don't like Hubstock for whatever reason
574
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:13.559
you prefer the competitor, don't come here like you're gonna
575
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.280
have that experience from the jump. So we're gonna be
576
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.599
transparent about things that we allow and that we use.
577
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:21.719
And yeah, I mean if you told me I was
578
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.519
taking a job tomorrow where I got there and they said,
579
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:27.079
like in my case, like no, we don't like Claude,
580
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:33.960
I'd have a fit immediately. So yeah, I think I
581
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.400
think we'll just people will lean more consumer oriented than
582
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.119
even before with the ways that they want to engage
583
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:44.960
with the environment, digital, digitally, their own.
584
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:49.159
Experience compelling, highly compelling.
585
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:55.360
Okay to conclude, phil right, if we accept that, you know,
586
00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:02.599
employee experience is now cutting violently across h IT facilities, operations,
587
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:03.760
the business itself.
588
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.800
What does what should the operating model for employee experience
589
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:11.199
look like? Or another? What I mean to ask the
590
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.840
fact that is, who should who should own it? And
591
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.000
maybe the answer is.
592
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:20.400
A question again of silos, you know, not not just
593
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:22.599
in who's being managed, but who's managing it.
594
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.800
You know, we've traditionally we had hr we had it.
595
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.960
Yeah, I you know, I tend to invoke the concept
596
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.599
of a chief of work or something like it a
597
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.719
lot of my writing, which is the version of that
598
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.800
independent function. And I am not precious about the name.
599
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.400
I'm not even precious about where it reports. And I
600
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:45.480
certainly don't believe it necessarily has to be a c
601
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.679
suite function from day one. I also don't believe that
602
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:55.960
it is practical to aggregate the operational implementation of hr
603
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.880
T real estate everybody like in one place. They may
604
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.199
meet at some executive level Sunday, or maybe you believe
605
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:03.880
they're going to break apart to run the bank and
606
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:06.480
change the bank, or run the business change of business groups.
607
00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:10.880
But the I think organizations ze a little bit of
608
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:15.039
a human chief operating officer or more of a like
609
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:18.360
a Fitbit or fitness a fitness tracker for the organization.
610
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.559
Right like I could look at my watch or my watch,
611
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:23.639
right'd say, oh, you you took so many steps, so
612
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:25.800
you did this, or you slept better you didn't, And
613
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:29.800
I sell the agency to choose what do I do
614
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:33.199
today based on what you're telling me happened yesterday? But
615
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.559
if I'm running a team and we're supposed to go
616
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:39.639
really fast, I want to be able to turn to
617
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.159
one source and maybe even through my little you know,
618
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:48.199
team copilot, just go hey, what am I not seeing
619
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:52.280
that could be helpful to us? And to be able
620
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.239
to have some central source with let's just call it
621
00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:59.760
workplace strategy and change people, by which I mean more
622
00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:06.480
like real estate types, digital collaboration or digital workplace strategy
623
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:10.199
and architecture types. Not just the one who's like running slack,
624
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.000
but the person who spends a good amount of time
625
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:21.239
thinking about how are the employees using slack right, what
626
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.719
are they going to it for, how are they behaving
627
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.719
in it? Are they making the most of the features,
628
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.920
What does that do to team dynamics, how does that
629
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.880
connect to meeting culture, ets other entire and the people
630
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.800
from the NHR side who think about people listening, engaged
631
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.320
in surveys and maybe benefits. Not all them. They all
632
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:41.719
think about work in a really human centered way, and
633
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.280
all probably want a level of data science or business
634
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.679
intelligence and user experience research and human center read. They
635
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:51.199
all want that. So if you put them into one
636
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:53.880
place and you just at least get them out of
637
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:59.559
those big core employee experience owning functions so that they
638
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:05.199
don't feel any fear to say, Oh, in this particular case, Bob,
639
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:11.280
for your team, your objectives, your dynamics, your composition, your everything,
640
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:16.079
it seems that the choices that you're making around let's
641
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:18.519
say the built environment where you go or how you
642
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.880
sit when you're there, is hurting you. And that doesn't
643
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.480
mean that for everyone else that judgment is true. It
644
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:30.599
means for you, your choices right now are working against
645
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:34.920
your objectives. So here's an unbiased view of some maybe
646
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.199
tweaks you can make. Or here's another group kind of
647
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.320
like you, looks and feels and smells a bit like
648
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:43.360
your team. They do something different, but composition wise you're similar,
649
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.280
and they're behaving in a different way. They're using co
650
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:51.440
pilot differently, they're thinking about space differently, they have more
651
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:55.000
or fewer meanings than you do, and they run them
652
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:56.880
this way. Here's a week and see. It's like we're
653
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.599
reading the tea leaves and they may have some lessons
654
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:01.840
that are useful for you. Here's some things that you
655
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.760
might try tomorrow and see if that helps. All right,
656
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:08.400
we can tell you did your heart rate go up?
657
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:11.440
Or that we can tell We don't own the outcome.
658
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:16.840
You own your outcome. We own the ability to connect
659
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:23.840
choices and journeys and moments and rhythms to your dependent outcome.
660
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:27.639
Amazing stuff.
661
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.880
Phil Typically, you know nowadays you just say you don't
662
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:33.519
even send anyone anyway and they just got a.
663
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:36.360
Link to us. But you have a beautiful, a beautiful website.
664
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:38.719
Beautiful thank you, I mean by the home for my.
665
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:41.199
Picture.
666
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:45.639
I really appreciate that. For anybody else, it's it's walkthwork
667
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.239
line dot com that will get you to my newsletter
668
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.719
and everything else about me, but LinkedIn to I'm very
669
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:51.400
active there.
670
00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:56.760
Is it's it's well worth checking out on the regular.
671
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.159
And we we we've loved having you back and we
672
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:03.079
hope to have you back again. I wonder if the
673
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:04.239
next two years will be as.
674
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.480
Tumultuous as the last two since we lost.
675
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.320
But I try, I mean, I try to be optimistic.
676
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:13.760
I think it will be the change will be even faster.
677
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:18.519
But we can either pretend it's not happening and hold
678
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.239
on to the way things are, or just try to
679
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.519
get on with it and figure out how we adapt
680
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:26.960
to what's possible now and tackle the really difficult problems.
681
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:29.880
Sound like I giving the choice of sitting here and
682
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.039
stewing or at least attempting to be optimistic about it.
683
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.039
I'd choose the latter, so I hope others do too.
684
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:35.800
I guess we'd better.
685
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:38.599
I think we better.
686
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:42.360
Yes, that's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be
687
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:45.159
back next week, and if you don't already, be sure
688
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.199
to follow the show so you don't miss an episode
689
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.440
until next time.