WEBVTT
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So happy Wednesday.
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Welcome back to the particulars.
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I'm Lacey.
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And I'm Nick.
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And a quick reminder before we get into anything, everything you hear from us tonight is our opinion and our analysis based on the public record.
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It is not legal advice, and where a case is still working its way through the system, the presumption of innocence applies.
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Full stop every time.
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One more thing, every episode, everything you're about to hear was fact-checked and verified as of 5 30 p.m.
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Eastern this afternoon.
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If something changed after that cutoff, we didn't know about it when we built tonight's show.
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That's how live news works.
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So I will go ahead and with some of the teasers.
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Anybody have any idea?
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If you saw tonight's graphic, you should have some ideas about what we're covering.
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But does anybody have anything in the chat?
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Anybody have any questions, things they want us to talk about?
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Thank you for the heart, Amy.
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We are going to take, oh, thank you.
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We are going, yeah.
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We're going to cover, and it's I I told Nick we actually went to dinner.
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Sorry, I touched my microphone.
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I heard it.
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I'm not used to having that there.
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Um, we went to dinner tonight, and I kind of told him that I was introducing a new segment tonight on the live, and he was like, You're killing me, Smalls.
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But it won't be bad.
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It is gonna be, it's gonna be, I don't want to say exciting.
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That makes it sound horrible.
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But there is a case that is just starting in the judicial system, so to speak.
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So, as you can probably guess, it is the Lindsay Clancy murder trial, and it's going on right now in Plymouth County.
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And what we're gonna be doing throughout the course of her trial is we will cover that trial every Monday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday at nine.
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When we do it, she will have her own segment built into the particulars so you will be able to see and have a more layperson understanding of what's going on in her trial as it unfolds live.
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If you are wanting to watch the trial or anything like that in particular, we're not gonna do that.
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We're just gonna kind of give you the recaps and give our I don't even want to say analysis, but how we do all of our other cases.
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We're gonna try to explain things.
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So if there's something that happens, or an expert witness, or you know, something like that during the case, we'll be able to explain that.
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And this is, I think, gonna be very beneficial because you'll be able to follow along as the case progresses.
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So that is our new segment.
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Um, we will also be talking about criminal responsibility, and we also have some very exciting news.
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You don't look excited.
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I'm pregnant.
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No, um, no, I guess it is me still.
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So we do have our Kofi set up and we did have our first donation.
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Yeah.
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So thank you, Amy, for our first donation.
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And we do have now my notes say two stickers, but I went ahead and I I raised the bar a little bit more for all of our viewers and our listeners.
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We have a t-shirt live in our sticker mule store, specially designed for all of our wonderful fans.
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So if you want a t-shirt, if you want to donate, uh, if you want to do any of those things, I do have my link tree set up.
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You can find it all from there.
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So we give the people what they want, right?
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So, quick bridge on some open threads.
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I spent a lot of time today going through um all the cases that we have covered, our topics that we have covered since our first episode of the particulars.
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And I tried to look at um, then I went through every live stream that we've done and I tried to see where have we yeah, it merch is gonna be difficult.
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I mean, for me to do because it took me quite a long time to design that shirt and get it pushed out, but it'll be good once it's up and running.
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So sorry.
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Um keep going.
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That's so distracting.
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Don't look at it.
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Um I oh my brain, there's too much going on.
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Okay, sorry.
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So um I went back through all the cases and the lives, and I tried to track what we have covered, what we've done updates with, and things like that.
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So tonight I will tell you forewarn, I'm gonna try to do give you any updates that I've been able to find before we pressed like live.
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Okay, so here we go.
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Let's get into it.
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Um, there really hasn't been anything material-wise that's a full segment.
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And when I say a full segment, that's like in regards to our um Lindsay Clancy case that is getting its own full segment every time we go through.
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So when I say it didn't get a full segment, it's just me right now giving you the rundown.
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Okay, so um, I talked about the 530.
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So, really quick, Paul Pelosi, the hit and run.
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Uh, we talked about that back in episode one.
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Um, the Napa County DA's office filed charges Friday, July 17th, a misdemeanor hit and run, leaving the scene of an accident, which was tied to his July 3rd crash in Yuntenville.
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We already reported that.
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Um, but he previously pled guilty to a DUI in 2022.
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So staying strictly on the legal facts here, there's a lot that's kind of being pushed out right now.
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Um, and more so the political side of that.
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That's that one.
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All right, and now we are going to go into one.
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And since I've been talking this entire time, I'm gonna s say Nick's gonna cover this because I want to see his reaction to this, and I'll actually turn it over for you.
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Thank you.
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There you go.
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Alright, so we're talking about accuracy.
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Um, we have Paul Juan Pascal uh or Pascal Juan case, that's what it is.
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A Guatemalan national named Martin Pascual Juan, who's lived in Seymour, Indiana since entering the U.S.
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as an unaccompanied minor in 2018.
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He was pulled over by North North Vernon Police in May after a flock safety camera flagged his vehicle as belonging to someone with suspended license.
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So it's worth stating that there are two outlets reporting this, the Seymour Tribune and the Republic, both call this a mistaken identification by police.
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We don't have the underlying probable cause affidavit ourselves, so I'm not able to um fact-check that, okay?
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Um, I attempted to verify with court records um the names that I was pulling, I was unable because there was a lot of mismatches in regard to names.
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So we're connecting that record to the story loosely.
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We're mainly basing this kind of off of the initial reporting.
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But I wanted to talk about this case because it is a flock camera case, and what's interesting is if you do any of your own research or go to you know, any any web search, you will be able to see a lot of the cases that are flock cases coming up.
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So I thought this was very interesting.
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Um, so the U.S.
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District Judge Matthew Brookman, South Southern District of Indiana, Terre Hot Division, ordered ICE to give him a bond hearing or release him, finding he'd been denied a hearing required under section 1226 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
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The government argued he fell under a stricter no bond hearing provision that usually applies to people detained at the border.
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The judge disagreed.
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He's lived here for years, this isn't a border case.
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So this is at least the seventh time since December a federal judge in this district has ruled the same way in a similar case.
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That's a pattern of the courts pushing back on how these detentions are handled.
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It's not just one outlier judge.
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No, it you're seeing a consistent pattern.
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So um the legal commentary this week tied the Supreme Court Shautri versus United States ruling, which we covered back in episode two, directly to Flock.
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The court held that police collecting Google location history through a geofense warrant counted as a Fourth Amendment search because Americans have a reasonable expectation of privacy in records of their movements.
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That reasoning is now in play in Schmidt v.
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City of Norfolk, a case in the Fourth Circuit challenging Flock cameras directly.
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The district court ruled against the privacy claim back in February before Shawtree came down.
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So the appellate court now has to weigh in with the Supreme Court's language in hand.
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Our commentary on this particularly is an opinion like we have our own view on Flock.
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The thing that's interesting to me is the amount of traction, I guess is the word we use, the amount of traction it is getting across all the platforms.
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And and it is not just social media based, it's not just news based.
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You are seeing this in actual court cases and even and it's just so frustrating to me that people are like, oh, you you can't do that.
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You can't watch me drive down the street.
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The cops sit there and watch you do it when they're sitting in their cruiser.
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How is it any different?
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All it is is it's a tool for the police force.
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Okay, so I will say, Amy, I'm gonna try to answer this question gently.
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Okay, so a a business is in a lot of ways for general purposes, a private owned.
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They're not they're not affiliated with the government.
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They're not, they're not, they don't enforce law, they don't enforce legislation, they're not a part of a city government or anything like that.
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So therefore, they don't fall under the rules that the government does as far as rights violations.
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So uh a private company cannot violate your rights.
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And in regard to as well, when we take this to Flock, these cameras are not um the majority, well, with this, now there are some cities that have their own camera systems, but the majority of these, which are the license plate readers, those cities are part of the city, which is part of city government, which is subject to is that the flock cameras are contracted through a specific private company.
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And if they're utilized, if they're utilized as a tool by the government, they fall under the statutes of the constitution.
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No, it's there's there's but well, in regard to the question, in regard to it being like, how is it different than a convenience store or a mall or something like that?
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That's kind of the difference.
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Yeah, um, but again, if we think about the fact that the majority of the citizens in our world right now have a ring camera or blink camera on their door, and you pass by it how many times a day, it's picking that up.
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Okay, I'm gonna settle this with Flock and then we can move on.
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Well, we're always gonna have to cover Flock because it's it's I know that it's prevalent, it's relevant, but for to our viewers and all seven of you right now, thank you for being here.
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Yes.
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Look at it this way.
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This is the simplest way to put it, period.
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Just like Amy said, how is it, you know, how is it different than a security camera at a store?
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Okay.
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It's not.
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Honestly.
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It's hard to hear me, yeah, because this mic doesn't work.
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I I will speak louder.
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Why do you keep pulling it away if it doesn't work?
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We're using those on TikTok.
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These and this one's not working.
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It hasn't worked forever.
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So I don't know.
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Anyways.
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We want mine, I talk louder.
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You're fine.
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Here's the deal.
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Struggle bus.
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No, it's it's not.
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Here's the deal with flock.
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Okay.
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A kid walks into a convenience store, right?
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Has a gun.
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Another guy, an adult, walks into a convenience store, has a gun.
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They don't know each other are there for the same reason, but the kid wants to rob the store, and the guy wants to rob the store.
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The adult.
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While the adult winds up shooting so-and-so, the cashier.
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Okay?
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Just follow me.
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I'm trying.
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The kid hides.
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The adult runs, the cops show up, they find the kid, they find the dead cashier, the kid has a gun, they arrest the kid.
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Now, there's video evidence that shows the kid didn't shoot the guy, the adult did.
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That is private security.
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At the time, it's not evidence.
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Only up until the police or a government agency seizes that recording does it become evidence and property of a government agency.
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Therefore, it is subject to the rules of the constitution at that point.
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And because it is a recording, it has to follow the rules of the constitution.
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And the fact that the government now obtained that doesn't matter if it needed a warrant or anything, they have that now.
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So when you look at it that way, now does the man who actually shot the person, the cashier, who left and fled the scene and was not caught, when he's caught later because of video evidence that exonerates the kid and implicates the adult, when you use that, is that a violation of his rights?
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Because you had originally arrested this kid and charged him, but now you're charging me because there's new information that you gained.
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Well, did you have a reasonable expectation of privacy being in that store?
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No, you didn't.
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Therefore, with a flock camera, do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy of driving on a public road?
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No, you don't.
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It's a tool that law enforcement uses to help fight crime, to find criminals.
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Therefore, if you are not committing a crime, why are you worried about flock cameras?
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I'm just saying.
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If that's the case, if that's the case, you wouldn't walk into any store that has a surveillance camera.
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Yeah, you wouldn't.
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Because the government could come in and seize it.
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It's a public they can't there has to be Do you know how easy it is?
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You know how easy it is to write search warrants to get them approved by a judge.
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Mine now.
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That's not how it works.
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There is law behind it.
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There is, yeah, that does protect you, so to speak.
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But in theory, the bottom line here is if you are following the law, yeah, it really shouldn't matter.
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Right.
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And quite honestly, considering, to me, my opinion, my opinion on the whole thing is we live in a world where literally we can watch people, they literally set up a camera to have people watch their dogs on TikTok live all day.
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You don't have privacy.
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I'm sorry.
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If you are inviting the world into your life through, you know, your Instagram, your your TikTok, your Facebook, your all these things.
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Yeah, I mean, what what's I don't get it?
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Like what I in my head, I'm like, okay, now if you come to my home and you want to like search my home or something like that, I think that is different.
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That's different in my head.
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But in in the public, like Walmart or any of those stores that you go into, I don't expect it to be private.
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Like I always consider that's public.
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That's why I try not to go out in the public because it's the public, it's too publicly out there.
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I prefer my homework, my space.
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But in a nutshell, that's f that's flock cameras.
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All it is, it's a private agency that's out there putting up cameras out in public.
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And I will say that I think that it was done in the best of intentions, genuinely, in true our society, anyone can take something that is done with the best of intentions and they turn it in to something completely opposite.
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And everybody always wants to look at the negative downside instead of potentially like you know, we talk about missing person cases a lot.
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And my my opinion in this kind of situation, I think the more cameras that we have, the better.
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Because then, you know, it's not just oh, well, so and so said they saw this person here.
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No, we can verify that.
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Yep.
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So that to my thing, I would rather have cameras.
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Just like with Lacey Peterson, so-and-so saw her walking her dog.
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Yeah, I mean, like I Maybe if we had flock cameras, they would have verified that.
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I'm just saying that is to me, that is a yes, and then there's a whole other aspect down there where people are like, well, AI, you can alter it.
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Well, yeah, you can, but then you're committing you're trying to be facetious and there's no winning, no, I feel like, in the majority of situations.
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No, not what the space society is.
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Yeah.
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So, and we do, we have, we've actually have, so they there was, and I am not gonna quote it, I'm not gonna pull it because I don't have it off top, like, you know, like right here in front of me.
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There was some cases, and I think it was I don't know if it was Google, I think it was Ring.
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They were having some really because um law enforcement was trying to get and obtain ring footage without going through the person.
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They were trying to like go through ring itself, and it has to go through the person that now it is on ring's servers, so to speak, but they still have to because it is my footage, my camera has to go through me.
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That's some of the some of the way.
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So I get it.
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There's legit reasons and concerns that people have.
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So I understand that the concerns are out there.
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I did briefly touch on that.
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It comes down to, in my personal opinion, integrity, morals, values, honesty, like accountability.
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Those are the things like it doesn't really matter.
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It's it's the bad apple principle, right?
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.799
In my head, there's always going to be a bad apple.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:47.599
I am not, you will very rarely ever catch me saying, like, all all law enforcement this or all attorneys that, because I don't think that you can lump a whole classification or group of people together and it be a true um, sorry, my brain, a true, a true classification.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:53.039
Because there's always you, yeah, like you can't worry about I can't.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.359
There it's too much, and it's just like uh there are good cops, there are bad cops.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.039
There are good attorneys, bad attorneys, good doctors, bad doctors.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.119
That's with every profession, right?
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:12.880
So what we tend to do though in our news is we pick up the horrible people and we put them on the news for the world to see.
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.920
So then the world only gets to see the negative.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:23.599
So what you're seeing in a lot of your news reporting in regard to flock cameras is the misuse of them.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:30.319
You are not seeing where I haven't pulled that, I'm sorry, but you're not seeing on the news every night the good.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.799
You're not seeing where it has helped do this or helped do that because that doesn't really, it's the same thing with your algorithm right now.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.519
That's why we're doing what we're doing with the two different recording setups because we're trying to reach people.
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:42.160
Yep.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.839
That's exactly what the news is doing, it just does it in a little bit different way.
00:20:48.079 --> 00:21:00.400
We're just trying to portray what is not known out there, or some some of the things that are we feel are important to be known and say, hey, you know, look at this.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.680
Take another look at this.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:10.480
I don't want people to just think that we're bad mouthing every news, every because it's not.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:16.640
Um I do think there are some that hold themselves to a higher standard of reporting.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:22.319
Um, but I also think that I don't even like that.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.319
Is just one of those things I've always been like that.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.200
I don't take what you tell me, and you're like, okay, great, that's awesome.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.839
I'm gonna go and share that with the world.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:41.680
No, I'm gonna go and look at four different things to verify what you said because I want to know well, is that really true, or is there more to that story?
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:43.920
It's the same, it's a it's a telephone thing.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:45.200
We've we've talked about that.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.400
Matt, you talk about worrying about data centers.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.599
It's funny.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:58.240
Data centers data centers have been going up around the country for about six years.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Started, yeah, it's started.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.599
Started right at around 2020.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:02.640
Imagine that.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.240
When data centers started popping up.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.599
We were all locked in our houses.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:12.799
But nobody said shit about them until the news started having a problem with it.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:17.839
Or people started having a problem with it and wanted to bring it to the news.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.240
Now, oh, it's in the news.
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:22.160
So I have now I'm worried about it.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:23.119
Right.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.599
The uh data centers have been popping up since 2020, since COVID.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.039
The that was the real start of the AI boom.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.839
Um just saying, we'll move on.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.640
But I just wanted to I wanted to mention that because it's very relevant to you know what we're talking about right now.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:40.960
Yeah.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:54.400
Well, and you know, if tonight is the first time that you are catching um the Casewalker Chronicles, the particulars, we are on all platforms, and our replays are on YouTube.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:01.519
And I will say that as I was looking through today, we touched that at the beginning of our stream.
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:12.079
Today I went back through kind of again matching case to whatever, and there was like 20 some cases that we've already talked about because we're live every Monday, Wednesday, Friday on TikTok at 9 p.m.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:18.720
Eastern, and we have covered a lot, and there's there's a lot of casework that's out there.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.720
Um, so I want people to know that if you missed it, I would try to urge you to catch up on the replays.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.519
Um, and again, hit that follow button.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.119
We greatly appreciate it.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:41.839
And in terms of our newest segment, the trial watch, which it won't just be my hope, it won't just be the the Lindsay Clancy case.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:56.960
I'm hoping that once her trial has you know concluded, a new trial would take its place, so that then we'll be able to build kind of like a catalog, and you can compare and contrast cases within different jurisdictions and things like that.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.880
Um, and that the manner of cases, it's it's all a catalog process.
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.200
So we're it's a it's a work in progress.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:06.240
We're glad you're here.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.640
We hope you keep you know coming back.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.000
Um following up with a previous episode, we spoke about Nolan Wells.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:14.720
This one's big.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:15.119
Are you ready?
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:15.839
You sure you're gonna be able to do that?
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:16.640
We're starting it.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:17.599
Let's go, let's do it.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.960
So we're we talked about Nolan Wells down in Mississippi.
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.000
The recap.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:22.559
Right.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:30.640
He's he was an 18-year-old, went missing on the 4th of July after a boat trip to Horn Island in Mississippi.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.319
His body was recovered two days later on July 6th.
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.160
Today we got the first real medical detail since then.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.880
And before we go into it, a couple things.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:49.759
When we uh when we were discussing this case, we did talk about jurisdiction in regard to this case.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.720
Um, if you missed that episode, again, I urge you to go back and watch it.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:04.640
But on that note, before we jump into the the meat and potatoes of this segment, does anyone have any questions that they want to throw out about this?
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:06.400
Why don't we cover it first?
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.240
I I just I kind of want to know what people's intake is so far.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.359
Like, what are they seeing?
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:16.319
What is what has been your your um what are you seeing?
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.240
Because I know what I see on mine.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.000
I want to know what you're seeing in regard to this.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.960
And I'll wait because I know everything's a little delayed.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.920
I just like using the little buttons.
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:33.279
They can't hear it.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.720
Oh, they can't hear it.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.599
Oh man, sorry, there were crickets.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.079
Uh okay.
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.039
Well eventually.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:46.880
I think they will eventually, yes.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:58.240
Especially if they if this ever goes to like a trial thing, yes, they would at that point, and it would it would be in the trial, but no, not just like like what are you seeing?
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.160
Like, what do you see in your feeds?
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:18.559
Because I know what my stuff is showing me, but again, I'm also going to um county uh public court systems, and I am actually looking or I am looking up cases and I am pulling the docket for cases, so I know what my stuff is sending me.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.519
I just want what you know people that aren't doing that.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:23.519
What does your news feed look like?
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:33.920
For a minute.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:34.720
Are you back?
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:35.920
He's back.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:38.319
I'm gonna wait.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.960
Give me some thumbs up, like an actual emoji.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:41.599
I'm old school.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.119
Give me an emoji in the chat if we're ready to get down to this.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:58.640
And I will tell you that I'm gonna tell you where you can go to get specifics after we yeah, yeah, it it's yeah.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:01.039
All right, well, here we go.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:06.160
A second independent autopsy was performed July 10th by Dr.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:15.599
Roger Mitchell of RAM Consulting LLC, board-certified forensic pathologist, former chief medical examiner for Washington, D.C.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.640
from 2014 to 2021.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.680
The exam was paid for by Colin Kaepernick.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:30.000
Mitchell's signed written report is dated July 19th, addressed directly to the Crump law firm, and the findings were made public today.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.160
Do you know who Colin Kaepernick is?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:34.079
Wasn't he some kind of sports person?
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:34.720
Yeah.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.640
Oh rich ass NFL player.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.359
That's irrelevant to the segment.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.759
Oh, we're not going to talk about the NAACP today?
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.160
No.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:46.720
Oh, okay.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.000
My bad.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:50.880
You're just read what I tell you to read.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:57.759
Well, the bottom line stated plainly in the report: cause of death, undetermined, pending investigation.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.440
Manner of death, undetermined, pending investigation.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:08.799
Because the body showed marked decomposition, Mitchell performed additional dissections the first autopsy hadn't done.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:16.400
Face, posterior head, and neck, ribs, pelvis, back, arms, legs, specifically to rule out blunt force injury.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:22.079
Result, no fractures, no deep tissue injuries found anywhere on the body.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:33.680
Now, one exception, dissecting the back of the head, Mitchell found a 12 by 8 inch area of red discoloration in the soft tissue over the occipital bone, the base of the skull.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.240
No skin laceration, no skull fracture.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.039
His own report calls this inconclusive for paramortal injury.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:48.559
Due to both the decomposition and the absence of any associated injury, but significant enough to flag for further investigation.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.480
That's the report's own language.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.359
Inconclusive, not a finding of trauma.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.200
Sent with the body to second.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:20.960
No, no, but you gotta be specific.
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.000
You're gonna let me know.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:23.680
You can't put your opinion in this part.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:27.039
Go ahead.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.000
They weren't with the second examination.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:31.359
Just have a drink.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:32.480
Thank you.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:45.440
Mitchell says retaining those structures after a first autopsy is common practice, just like the organs that were not there with the body or the brain.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:54.240
Because that was all held with the first to do toxicology and the gastroetymology, all of that.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:08.160
Um he doesn't know why the back portion of the occipital bone and things like that weren't examined as well in that report.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.880
But without them, he says the neck exam from the back only is complete.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:14.079
Incomplete.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:20.480
Uh he can't rule out neck injury because he doesn't have the front portion.
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.079
So the examiner with the second autopsy.
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:33.119
So Mitchell also couldn't examine, obviously, the airway, lungs, or stomach contents since those organs had been processed by the first autopsy.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:39.440
The second exam did not include toxicology, and histology samples have been submitted, but results aren't back yet.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:41.119
Both are still pending.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:48.559
One unrelated finding for the record: a remote healed scar on the left ankle, old and not connected to the cause of death.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:53.359
So the report lists seven specific open questions before a real cause of death can be determined.
00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:06.640
How Wells entered the wadi uh water, sorry, his body position when found, whether there was water in the airway, evidence of neck injury, evidence of intracranial hemorrhage, stomach contents, and the toxicology results.
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:15.759
Direct quote from the report this pathologist cannot rule out if any intervening non-accidental factors contributed to or caused the death.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.640
So that is not a founding of foul play.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.960
It's the pathologist saying the evidence in front of him doesn't let him rule it out.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.680
A different, narrower statement, and we want to be precise about that.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.079
So Amy, you're exactly right.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.519
I was thinking the same thing when I read the second autopsy report.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.519
12 by 8 inches on on the back of the neck and head.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:38.880
That is massive.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:53.519
That is the entire side-to-side profile of the head and all the way down from the you know center of the skull to the to your middle back for an 18-year-old, unless this kid is like seven foot tall, which I don't think he is.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:56.799
I thought the same thing in my head.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.440
I didn't say anything, but I'm like, man, that's weird.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.799
12 by 8 inch area.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.920
That's huge.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:05.920
I will say that.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:07.759
So I will finish with this.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:13.279
The official Mississippi State Medical Examiner's autopsy is still not released, still waiting on toxicology.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.079
So we're not asking you to take our word for any of this.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:18.559
The full preliminary report signed by Dr.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.839
Mitchell is posted publicly at bencrump.com.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.279
Go read it for yourself.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.200
And what I'm going to tell you is that I read it and then I read it to Nick, and then Nick and I discussed it.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:39.519
And what I will say is that we had our own questions, and when I posed my possible theories or um summaries in regard.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:48.960
Yeah.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.720
So he literally goes, huh, and turned away and walked away.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.400
No, I said, no.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.200
What'd you say?
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.000
That's not what I said.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:56.640
Yeah, I know.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:58.400
He had him and I have a little bit different.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.119
You will see that we have some very different views on some things.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:08.720
Um she's coming around.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.920
I say you're coming around to my my way of thinking.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:18.160
That's where you need your crickets.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:20.720
Alright.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.680
So that is that.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.240
That is as clear as mud.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.000
I will say there was a press conference today that was held by the NAACP.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.079
That is on YouTube as well.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.240
Don't go listen to it.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.920
I would strongly tell you to read.
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:43.519
I see, I agree.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:44.559
I am always right.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:49.359
I would I would tell you to read their report for yourself.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.400
Then you could watch the press conference.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:34:14.400
I what you will notice with me is I am not devoid of emotion, but for me, I like to look at the science and the facts of things rather than get someone's uh I wasn't gonna say bias, but I I everyone has a bias.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.199
I understand that.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:25.519
That's why I choose to operate largely with documents because it's yes, they can be written, but especially when it comes to medical things, it's a little bit harder to put a bias in there.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:26.639
I'm just saying.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:27.599
Do you want mine?
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:28.159
No.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:29.360
Okay.
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:31.840
So hopefully that that helps.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.480
Does anybody have any other questions about that?
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:40.400
That was a huge um, a huge chunk, huge development.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:40.960
Yeah.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.960
Um, so I I felt like we had to cover it.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:54.480
I feel like there's a lot of coverage on it, but I wanted to kind of put it out there that it is available for you to read yourself.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:01.599
So before you start looking and seeing what everybody's saying about it, I would urge you to read it.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:07.039
And it that it that again was, I think it was at bencrump.com because Ben Crump is the attorney for the family.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.880
So that is my that is my take on that.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.559
Any questions?
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:19.679
I love all the likes.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.679
You guys are so great with your hearts.
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:22.639
Thank you for liking.
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:24.639
Almost 14,000 likes.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:25.840
That's awesome.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:32.800
If you are just hopping in, give us a follow so you can stay up to date on all the things going on.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.559
All right, no questions.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:42.000
All right, so we are moving on to Vinton County.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:52.159
So this is gonna be just the quick status check for people that are just hopping in or haven't caught the previous episodes.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.960
This is the Siders family case.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.679
And remember, we discussed in previous episodes, they are all their own cases.
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:07.119
So I, for purposes of I hate to say storytelling, but basically, yes, this is the 16 children case.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:11.119
Um, so two motions we've been watching remain undecided.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:19.039
So Christina Siders' request for a non-dissemination order and Elizabeth Siders' request to modify her$300,000 bond to recognition.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.679
No ruling on either as of tonight.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.679
Here's what did move.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:29.280
All four defendants waived their preliminary hearings back on July 7th.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.239
And that sends the case straight to a Venton County grand jury instead.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:42.800
Prosecutor William William Archer said on July 8th, he hoped to have indictment news in the next couple weeks.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:48.639
Well, that's kind of where we are right now, which means this could break literally any day now.
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.599
I'm reading through my note.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.719
Thank you, Amy.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:29.599
So there's um some things floating around, and I will say, um, in regards to this case, again, right now, the four cases are able to be found on the public records court document page.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.639
So um I have that somewhere.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.320
It's in my other spreadsheet.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:47.360
But that I would there's some things uh specifically like separately, where Elizabeth married Gary at age 15, and there's stuff like that that's floating around.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.800
That really isn't anything to do with this case.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:38:01.840
So there are a lot of outlets out there that are picking up some of those older snippets of things, and it's kind of getting confused in with the current case.
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:08.480
Cases, because they are separate, but that is all of that that I have.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:12.000
So one more open thread in regard to the Ciders family.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.119
Um, Gary Jr.
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:19.599
faces a separate case for counts of public indecency, unrelated victims warrant issued the same day as the search.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:24.000
Several outlets suggested this is the same warrant that brought them to the house.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.199
Authorities haven't officially confirmed that connection.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.480
We're presenting it as outlets connecting dots, not as confirmed fact.
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:34.960
So, yeah, there's a lot going on.
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.360
And they, and again, what I I will briefly, I'll try to touch on this briefly.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.480
What I mean by that is when I go in and I do um like my public record searches, okay.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.360
So, like we have, I'll just use Indiana, that's an easy one.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.440
Um, Indiana My Case.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.679
I'm pretty sure everybody living in this state knows about Indiana My Case, okay?
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:58.159
So you can go in there and you can literally do a simple search by the name.
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:06.480
So you can put somebody's first name and last name in there, and it, if there is a some kind of record for them, it's gonna pull up whatever.
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:14.320
Okay, there are statute of limitations as far as like if we look at driving stuff, that's a little bit different and how stuff is processed there.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:21.119
Um then we look at like underage juveniles, usually never listed unless they are tried as an adult.
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.960
Um, again, there are different laws per each thing.
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:26.880
So I'm just doing broad classifications.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:40.400
Each state's different, yeah, and each state is different, and each like you know, um the the court levels are different, and depending on how the case, like what court it is tried in, they have different things.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:52.239
So there was, and I don't remember which one I talked, I think it was last episode, and I told you guys that when I was just trying to get the case record from the docket, I had to pay$4.75 just to access it.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:40:00.960
I was like, this is and then I have some when I actually go to um some courts, they will charge you per page, and it's usually 10 cents per page.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:19.840
So if you um are accessing a PDF document on that case, which is could be a motion with exhibits or anything like that, easily it could be 500 pages, and so then they're charging you 50 bucks 50 bucks to pull this report, which is stupid because it's digital and they're not copying it.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:25.920
Yeah, it's they're getting the money back for putting the copies into digital format, yeah.
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:32.880
That's and and housing the documents, the great thing about Indiana is it's all free.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.480
Yes, it is all free.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:40.880
However, they they are a little there's a delay in the the processing, it's not bad, it's not too bad, but it is there.
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:43.280
Um it's usually there the next day.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:53.199
Yeah, so just saying, like when I say when I go and look for things, yes, there are some cases where if we look at a an W It all depends on the clerk, too, the county, yeah.
00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:03.840
Because I know with uh the county we live in specifically, the clerk, anything that we've processed with the court usually gets in the very next day.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.880
Anything that gets processed is usually the next day for the house and you've got holidays and you've got all the things don't take our word for it.
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:16.000
That's just our case that we've been dealing with.
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:22.960
Other counties may be different, they may have a bigger workload, and that information doesn't get into the system as quickly.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:35.119
So yeah, and I I do try to like I literally have bookmarks, so I will go in each day and I will go and I will do the search and I will look at the docket and see if anything is posted.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:40.320
If it has posted and the motion is available to download, I will download it, I will read it.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.599
All of those things.
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:43.760
Um let's move on to top G.
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:44.960
We're losing people.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.199
It is what it is.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.679
I said top G and somebody joined.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.960
Look, I cannot with you.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:55.840
I you know what?
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.599
There are people that legitimately want to hear the method to my madness.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.679
Look, more people were joining because I said top G.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.559
This is not why.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.519
If you are joining just for this, I can't with you.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.400
So, anyways, the moment you've all been waiting for, obviously, the Tate brothers.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.599
Andrew Tate.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.320
Ain't nobody got time for that.
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:16.159
All right, you take the whole segment then.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:16.960
I'll take it all.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:24.400
Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate arrested in Miami last weekend on a UK extradition warrant.
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:34.000
So they're trying to get them extradited back to the UK for potential crimes, alleged crimes that they have committed.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:45.679
A senior Trump administrator or admission administration official told Axios directly, so take it for what you will, because we know how all those Trump claims are.
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:51.599
The administration will not intervene to block extradition on the Tate Brothers.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.400
The U.S.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:43:02.800
has an extradition treaty with the UK, and the admin administration intends to honor it in this case as well.
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:13.280
Under the Justice Department's own court filing, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has sole discretion to block extradition if he believes it's politically motivated.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:21.119
A senior State Department official has Rubio or says Rubio hasn't spoken to the Tates or their lawyers.
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.280
See, we got more people joining.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.400
And that the state has no plans to act.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.480
The next hearing is Monday, July 27th.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:33.440
This coming Monday.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.000
Both brothers waived their attendance for it.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.719
So it'll just be their attorneys, obviously.
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:45.360
Um, if you don't know by now, uh the Tate brothers are social media influencers at this point.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:53.119
They're pretty well known in the social media world, other than the fact that this one had no clue who they were.
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:54.559
I don't know who they were.
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:58.719
Which is not surprising because of who they influence.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.760
They are
00:44:00.239 --> 00:46:23.840
marketed towards young impressionable men I was gonna say I'm young and I'm impressionable men I'm not a man uh to help hone their minds into thinking a certain way I know that's not true I know that first of all okay that's absolutely terrible if that is the truth that's exactly what it is do they state that because I feel like that's a bit pretty big claim to state sir on a platform they have a their own university to get kids to pay tuition to learn how to be a T'es terrible people silent I'm that's that's my opinion they're they're absolutely horrible people and they have everything everything coming to them is deserved I'll just say that his opinion his analysis not legal advice also on the numbers UK authorities issued 38 new charges and Axios describes this as bringing the total combined counts to 59 it could be read as saying 59 is their total UK exposure when earlier it explicit 59 is new charges on top of the separate prior UK charges involving three alleged victims we have not independently verified the exact I'm giving thumbs up to Maddie we have not like I'm not going down a rabbit hole for this I'm sorry that even if it is even if it is 38 that is an astronomical amount of like legwork that I'm not saying it's not important but in my opinion Yeah let's just say it involves rape child sex trafficking uh child pornography all kinds of stuff that is pretty terrible Alex is on his way home I now those are all alleged yeah I anyways apples apples oranges whatever we're moving on if you genuinely want more Tate brothers content let me know I can cover it but I feel like I do want to say there is a political dimension to this and I don't like politics.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:47:33.119
I know we try not to cover politics the Tate's attorney is calling this political persecution and there's reporting that parts of the administration were caught off guard by the arrest we're sticking to the legal facts of the charges the claims um of what's been charged and we're staying out of the whole political side of looking at it so but I will say if we do follow up with this the political side of it is gonna come out with their case just saying oh Demi's having a nightmare she's joining the conversation so if you hear her she's having a dream over there all right moving on I'm glad I I'm glad I'm not going to Newport I just funny because you're like I don't want to hear any more about it and then yeah I I I I don't like the politics side of it.
00:47:33.199 --> 00:49:16.320
I really don't like it it it has no place in in like investigations and things like that in my opinion I'm sorry like it it's this is your job do your job whoever is the judge the mayor whatever shouldn't have any effect yeah that's my view that's how I look at it like I don't care who you go to church with I don't it doesn't matter to me like this is what you were supposed to do this is who you are this is the alleged crimes that you committed that's it there's no I I don't think there's that's why I try to keep politics separate and that's why I I just I don't I look at some cases and I try not to cover them because it's and I that sounds even worse but it's like it it's all like we touched on Pelosi right that was it we touched on I gave you the facts of the case the the and then we moved on like the there the whole thing that's in the news feeds is like this much the case and this much politics that surround the case and it's like no sorry well more about politics Newport Kentucky flock cameras laughing because you you wanted to be done with flock and then it's like oh it creeps back in yeah so quick follow-up on Newport Kentucky I was gonna say why did that change but I oh gosh hang on more technical issues no it's not it's just them saying that we're not active so we have to I'm part of their bullcrap to make sure you're not a bot yeah and that's the thing like I really try I don't want things to seem like I have a bias but again every single person has some sort of bias.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:34.880
I genuinely do try to look at things from all different aspects and that's why it became increasingly more obvious for me that I wanted to present something like this where I can say well this is what the actual case is you make your determination.
00:49:35.039 --> 00:51:53.440
Yeah flock cameras Newport Kentucky I said that so since we spent real time on flock cameras on uh tonight already uh multiple outlets confirm the city ended its flock pilot program on July 14th citing public feedback and fourth amendment concerns tied to the Shaw Tree ruling we just discussed but every single report on this as of tonight still describes the removal and future or announcement tents will remove or they are removing we do not have independent confirmation the cameras are physically down and the camera count itself is inconsistent across the sources one outlet says 17 cameras were originally placed another says only six were active at removal and another account says there were 18 again this is the whole point of the podcast and it's like depending on which which news story you see hear or read yeah but the facts have changed but the fact that they shut it down according to their reporting it was their their their community's feedback that they didn't want and I think that the bigger takeaway there is that they the city so to speak chose to limit the amount of possible outcomes in regard to legal battles they just said okay fine that's my take on it I mean because that's what in my opinion when the when the community comes to you and they say hey we don't want this we blah blah blah blah blah and they're willing to like put up a fight for it I that's my thing like I think that the the community it's gonna be unfortunate when it uh don't okay shut just shut your mouth so anyways moving on you can have this case oh Nancy Guthrie the the the other one that I hate gosh you see what she does to me first is your blood pressure raising yet no I got low blood pressure what's already been confirmed Derek Kalella the man who sent the false ransom note in the case has he's pleaded guilty on two federal felony accounts sentencing is set for September 10th before the U.S.
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.920
Dis district judge John C.
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:32.800
Hendraker Hendraker we're just gonna make up names for these people from now on there's five people watching so I they probably wouldn't know the difference if we made up names they'd be like oh yeah that sounds about second something new we love you all FBI director cash patel the party animal that he is told Fox News Digital that the four day delay before the FBI was allowed into their investigation may have cost crucial doorbell camera video.
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:47.760
Hmm the footage that was ultimately recovered came from a cache a cache that was in his words on the verge of deletion with that video file.
00:52:48.719 --> 00:53:15.039
So Sheriff Nanos disputes part of this saying an FBI task force member though not a federal agent was present in the early stages this is a single outlet exclusive as of tonight not yet independently cooperated elsewhere so we're presenting it as reported not as settled fact oh cash patel being a party animal that's my opinion but yeah you go see for yourself.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:24.159
He's in a lot of a lot of news feeds across the country I'm just gonna say that he's he's got a lot going on right now.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:40.480
So that's five real updates in one segment this is exactly why we build the show this way follow along if tonight's the first time you're catching one of these I really strongly doubt that there is a person in the United States that doesn't know about some of this.
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.079
And if they do you may not have access to the internet.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:54:27.440
They're not like us no so now we're moving on hello Kelly quick backstory Marley Kinney 19 of Ashland Kentucky disappeared June 24th while boating with a group of gr with a group at Grayson Lake in Carter County she reportedly left the rented pontoon to use the restroom and never returned after a multi-agency search using divers, sonar helicopters drones and cadaver dogs her body was recovered June 28th we pulled the actual docket ourselves the case is Commonwealth now I will say these are two separate cases before we go into it in in this because I am very specific about this.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:36.159
So the docket that I am able to pull is in regard to Cameron Conley and that is the Commonwealth versus Cameron P.
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:59.599
Conley Carter District Court and I'm not going to give you the case number um Conley the operator of the boat is scheduled for arraignment today July 22nd at 9 a.m I pulled was not able to find a conclusion for that I will say that he was arrested for boating under the influence he was the one supposedly driving the pontoon that Marley and her friends were on.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:14.960
Now I will tell you that also there are some spelling inconsistencies across the national coverage in regard to this case and as of today the national coverage of this case is dwindling and it is very sparse.
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:31.920
Yeah um so given our production cutoff we don't know the outcome of today's arraignment I looked again before it's not on there but what's still unresolved is Marley's cause and manner of death remain pending with the Kentucky State Medical Examiner's office in Frankfurt.
00:55:32.079 --> 00:56:02.079
So no update since her body was recovered June 28th that's now four weeks with no public finding and I will go ahead and push this and tie it all the way back to Nolan Wells this case with very minimal it had a lot of media coverage at the beginning but since then that has filtered off I will say that it has been four weeks and there is no real um update so no real findings or anything like that.
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:34.320
So in Amy's question is it kind of normal the way that the Nolan Wells case is is going through the system I will say that I think the uh we got hats and mustaches I love it I missed it I I think that while one case is getting more attention than the other I think they're honestly moving at the same speed if we look at just what is being put out there.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.559
That's all I'm gonna say about that.
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:47.760
Um this is a real case a real court date and we noted back in episode two that the voting under the influence charge against Conley and Marley's death remain legally separate facts.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:57:03.519
So no charge currently connects them we're not implying one it's just that that is how that came about so in terms of Connie's arrest and things like that it those two are connected in that manner but not anything else.
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:23.679
Two separate cases um but it is a very real case it's a it's got a real real court date and it's gotten a fraction of the attention some other stories this month have that's not a knock on any of the other cases okay um I'm just saying that coverage volume isn't the same as legal substance.
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:47.679
Alright Grayson okay another thing Grayson Lake is small Ashland Kentucky is small it's not gonna get huge coverage unless of course there's a big to-do about it where something is found that is extraordinary and is newsworthy.
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:58.480
That's just how it that's just how it happened my opinion just saying I'm not going to tell you much more other than what I have said tonight.
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:18.800
Yeah that's that's I just for two cases that were very and similar in the nature and and way the way things happen okay you have two groups of friends go out on two different voting days both of them had someone end up dead at the end of the excursion.
00:58:19.039 --> 00:59:42.239
Okay those in my head and maybe I'm thinking about that in the simplest terms but to me that's two very similar cases and if you look at what you see right now the black man's national news and the white girl's not I'll say it I don't care what I think we have tried to do is in in order not to be looked at one way we've over I don't even want to say overcompensated but news has instead of saying okay it's just I'm I'm just I was very upset I'll be honest with you I I got to the end of the press conference today and I was just upset because why I mean I in my head a case is a case a child is a child a uh a murder is a murder what's gonna what's gonna sell the news right now I'm I that's what it's always I know people are not gonna like they're not gonna like what you said and they're not gonna like what I had to say and I understand that and I get that and I'm not trying to make anything about race I'm just saying that these cases pretty much happened right about the same time and what have considering you look online and what have you observed what have you observed one has had no news updates in almost four weeks the other is the entire news feed is covered.
00:59:42.400 --> 01:00:32.960
Yep what sells the news well I'm just saying it's not equal it's not fair and there is no fair I understand that okay dad thank you actually the fair is next week but anyway all I'm saying is until we start treating all cases with the same legal and and um like investigative lens and honestly if we just kept the media out of it the world would be a little bit better that's just my opinion I know everyone's got one and I know everybody has different opinions and at the end of the day in my honest opinion you had two groups of friends two very young people that lost their lives whether it was an accident whether it was murder it doesn't matter they are both gone and they are not coming back.
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:59.440
That cannot be undone so quite honestly what the world thinks about it really doesn't matter it's the investigations that are done and I understand that their view on this is that they're saying that that you know this specific case the investigation was botched or it didn't happen fast enough well I'm here to tell you friends that I still don't have any other information on Marley Kenny.
01:00:59.760 --> 01:03:20.880
No I'm sorry everybody probably is gonna be really upset about that comment and I can't wait for people to come at me in my YouTube comments bring it all I'm sorry I just think that and in terms of I mean do we have any idea like the case log that some some counties have if we're doing toxicology reports or if we're doing like you know all the all this backlog of rape kits that need to be tested the amount of work that needs to be done cannot keep up with the amount of crime that takes place in this country I I just that's I'm sorry I'll get off my soapbox I went down a rabbit hole I'm sorry no we're not sorry it is what it is it's we're trying to just bring the facts to light because we see we investigate these things we look at both sides of these things you know we see cases that we believe you know should be investigated thoroughly they all should and they all should be brought to the limelight yeah I think because because they're all important they're all somebody's child husband mother daughter and they're they're there's they're people there is a lot of cases out there where the investigation was not up to par and that is what I will say about that I am not trying to badmouth anyone because hindsight as Nick likes to say it's 2020 they taught they teach you that in in investigations plain and simple and yes we understand mistakes get made we're all humans we all make mistakes that's why you notice a lot of this automation starting to happen automatic plate readers you know ways of yeah it takes the human out of it taking the human out of it because we we all know that the justice system is flawed be based on the human element plain and simple well yeah because we've already talked about that we have bias and again like point point made with this now again people are probably gonna snip it and and pick different parts out of this live they can go ahead or they can go to YouTube and find the replay and find the actual talk about it.
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:32.400
But what what that's the thing is if we are trying to in theory eliminate the human nature aspect of it and make things more autonomous then we can't be getting rid of the autonomy.
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:42.079
Mm-hmm Newport wants to get rid of well then you know it may take them eight weeks to get results back.
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:47.199
I don't know I don't I'm every every and then another another person could get murdered because of it.
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:52.320
Yeah it it just there's no winning in any situation that's what I want people to understand.
01:03:52.400 --> 01:04:58.239
And yes you need to fix society before we try to fix the oh yeah it's a people we have a people problem bad it's a people problem I I fear because I mean it is it is what it is but anyways we are officially I I this is a whole new setup we've talked about that I'm sorry I'm not gonna keep saying it but if you're just jumping in you're just joining us I strongly suggest that you hit that follow button and you follow along because this is our brand new segment the trial watch and it will continue to evolve throughout this case and hopefully many that sounds bad hopefully many more in the future um it's the justice system we're wanting to last a while we're we're wanting to provide that in-depth look and looking at things from multiple different aspects angles whatever you want to call it um hello Ian Rhodes I hope everyone that is just joining us and just following us for the first time also knows that all of our live streams are on YouTube.
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:51.280
Catch the replay they are not um sequential so to speak you can watch them however we do try to build upon and we do cover different cases roughly each episode we do have our sticker mule uh website where you can purchase our wonderful t shirt has anybody that follows and is a frequent has anybody checked it out yet have you got I haven't hinted at what the t-shirt is yet but I'm waiting for someone in the chat to tell me they've looked at it because I'm I made the shirt for my fellow followers that are my diehard fans I made the shirt for you guys um and we do have the the two new sick stickers as well and Mad Bark I don't know if you're on here you were at one point I do I haven't forgot about you I am gonna send you stickers I just haven't left my house to go to the post office.
01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:59.760
So segment two the trial watch with Lindsay Clancy and just to be completely fair
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.400
Nick knows very, very little.
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:05.599
You didn't see the t-shirt.
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:08.480
I'm gonna have to look.
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:13.039
I can see it on my end, but I I I thought I made it public.
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:18.400
Anyone else if wants to chomp like hop over and see if they can find the shirt?
01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:21.679
Because if not, I'm gonna have to reach out to them.
01:06:22.239 --> 01:06:26.960
That'll be uh Maddie, it's in our um link tree.
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:36.000
And our link tree should be on TikTok, it should be Instagram, all those should be in there.
01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:38.960
Every every platform's a little different, so that's why I do the link tree.
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:41.360
Matt says he's like he can only see the stickers.
01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:49.679
Amy said she can see it now, so I don't know if maybe keep checking and let me know because I I can reach out to them.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:50.880
I don't know why.
01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:52.480
It was that like I said, it was there for me.
01:06:52.559 --> 01:06:54.559
I actually personally ordered one.
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:59.280
Um and I'm supposed to get it, I think June 29th.
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:02.960
So if I get it, it I'll definitely show it.
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:04.960
Yeah, but it is on sticker mule.
01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:09.280
That was a hot mess for me to try to get that store fixed.
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.280
So let me know feedback on that.
01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:14.559
But I did I did design the shirt.
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:16.719
And he says click on July.
01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:17.679
Maybe.
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:19.519
Or maybe did I say June?
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:20.639
I maybe said June.
01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:22.400
I don't know what I don't even know what day it is.
01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:23.599
Like I know it's Wednesday.
01:07:23.679 --> 01:07:25.199
My stuff is revolves around.
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:27.440
I will say podcasts.
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:29.599
We we have felt this a lot.
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.000
When you Maddie sees the shirt, perfect.
01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:44.639
When you quit your job, like your regular day job, nine to five, whatever you want to call it, that's Monday through Friday, and you start working from home and start trying to build your own business, you completely lose track of time.
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.480
Time is just like non-existent.
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:47.679
I don't know what day it is.
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:50.400
We don't know what day it is, we don't know what time it is.
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:52.480
Hey Tiffany Taylor.
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.360
Oh my gosh, this is the first time I've seen her in our in our live.
01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:56.079
That's awesome.
01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:04.239
And yeah, we we are like up until two or three o'clock in the morning, and uh welcome, welcome.
01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:06.960
You are just in time for the main segment.
01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:10.079
Um, again, thank you for the likes, the shares, the follows.
01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:14.719
Again, we the main thing we're really pushing for is the follows, our follow count.
01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:19.760
I it's uh I will say Nick did a live stream fishing the other day.
01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:23.840
He got like 45 followers in that one live stream.
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:32.159
That's what brought about this whole why we're doing the stream different today, because he just used his phone and was just him live.
01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:36.000
Quick disclaimer this live is a little bit different than normal.
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.000
We don't have graphics, we don't have any of that.
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:41.359
We're streaming directly from the TikTok app on the phone.
01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:42.800
Yes, this is a test.
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:45.680
We're using two separate different mics.
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:51.600
We're streaming, we're not streaming, we're recording from another camera that is going to be going to YouTube.
01:08:51.920 --> 01:09:00.479
So you will get the 16 by 9 version, which is like the normal screen version that we usually do over on YouTube if you've missed some of tonight's episode.
01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:03.680
Be sure to go to YouTube and check it out when I get it uploaded.
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:10.319
It takes me some time because I have to edit it and I'll be up till two in the morning, three in the morning, but it doesn't matter because I have insomnia and I don't sleep anyway.
01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:19.760
And on that note, in the chat or in my DM or anywhere that we have a platform where you could leave a comment or anything like that, what would people think?
01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:21.199
Nick hasn't heard this yet.
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:23.920
I thought about this the other night when I couldn't sleep.
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:35.520
Should we put the particulars as its own kind of standalone on like Spotify, Apple so that you get the replay that way as well?
01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:42.000
Yeah, if you listen to podcasts on Spotify, it would be able to come through that way rather than having to go to YouTube or whatever.
01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:43.520
I'm just throwing that out there.
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:44.640
It was a thought I had.
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:49.840
It was like, in if we had that to our post-production, we can push that out to that, maybe.
01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:53.279
And if you're driving in your car, you'd be able to listen to it that way.
01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:56.000
So there is that possibility that we could go that rate.
01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:57.039
I just play YouTube video.
01:09:57.359 --> 01:09:58.239
I know, I'm just saying.
01:09:58.399 --> 01:09:59.920
I I'm just throwing out some ideas.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:01.439
This is what happens when we don't sleep.
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:05.199
Because we clearly like we don't get up in the mornings anymore till like almost.
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:07.199
Well, I get speak for yourself.
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:09.439
I roll out like 10, 11.
01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:10.880
Yeah.
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:15.199
If you're lucky, and I get my day started, and then I'm up to like three.
01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:17.600
Is that a yari that you know?
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.359
Uh yeah, probably.
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:21.039
I don't know very many yaris.
01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:21.920
I only know one.
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:28.079
But, anyways, yeah, no, I was just saying when you quit your job, um time goes out the window.
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:28.479
Yeah.
01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:30.800
So, all right, let's get to segment two.
01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:33.600
We like to talk about tangents, and we're not anymore.
01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:35.199
We're talking about Lindsay Clancy.
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:42.479
So, before any legal analysis, here's the story plainly for anyone joining fresh.
01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:44.479
This one is a hard one, okay?
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:50.399
We're going to stay at the level of legal facts and standards, which is our shoals show's whole approach anyway.
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:57.119
It will not be the blow-by-blow detail because we only do Monday, Wednesday, Friday lives at 9 p.m.
01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:05.279
So it is obviously not going to be the trial watch where there's, you know, the person live streaming the trial as it's minute by minute.
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:06.560
It's not going to be that.
01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:11.760
It's more of okay, when we come on Monday, we can give you a recap of what happened Monday.
01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:14.720
We'll give you the legal breakdown, that sort of thing.
01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:20.159
Um, then on Wednesday, we'll cover uh Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:21.840
So that'll kind of be how that goes.
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:24.000
Hey Tiffany, thank you for the follow.
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:24.560
Thank you.
01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:26.239
You want me to do the first segment?
01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:28.000
Hi, you can do it.
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:28.399
Yes.
01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:28.720
Okay.
01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:31.760
Because I don't know much about yes, he is coming in new.
01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:33.439
I we're gonna say hello to Yari.
01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:34.479
Hello, Yari.
01:11:37.119 --> 01:11:52.079
All right, so on this case, on the evening of January 24th, 2023, in Duxbury, Massachusetts, Lindsay Clancy, a labor and delivery nurse, is accused of killing her three young children.
01:11:52.319 --> 01:11:57.119
Cora five, Dawson, three, and Callen.
01:11:57.439 --> 01:11:58.319
Is it Callan?
01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:07.119
Callan, eight months old, while her husband Patrick was out of the home running an errand, she had asked him to run.
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.720
Cora and Dawson died that day.
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.479
Callan died days later from his injuries.
01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:21.359
Lindsay then cut her wrists and neck and jumped from a second floor window.
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:29.840
She survived, but suffered traumatic spinal cord injuries and is now paralyzed below the sternum.
01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:30.880
Yes.
01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:39.359
So she was arraigned at Tewkesbury State Hospital on October 26th, 2023, and pleaded not guilty on all charges.
01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:47.920
That same day, the court committed her under General Laws Chapter 123, Section 18, for a period not to exceed six months.
01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:52.560
She's been held there since, transported to court in person for each day of this trial.
01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:57.760
Most recently, under a civil recommitment petition filed May 21 of 2025.
01:12:58.079 --> 01:13:13.039
So um that this is a pretrial civil commitment under Code 18, a different statute from the post-verdict 16 commitment referenced later in 2C, which would apply only if she's acquitted by reason of lack of criminal responsibility.
01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:15.760
Keep those two sections distinct, okay?
01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.680
Um, the present custody is not the hypothetical future outcome.
01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:20.159
Right.
01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:24.239
She has never disputed that she caused their deaths.
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:39.680
The entire courtroom fight, the trial happening right now, is about her mental state, not what happened, why, and whether the law holds her criminally responsible for it.
01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:40.720
Yes.
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:46.319
So I know that is gonna bring a lot of confusion right now if you don't know about this.
01:13:46.560 --> 01:13:50.239
Okay, so okay.
01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:52.479
So there's a lot going on.
01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:53.039
A lot.
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:55.520
Amy asked if the last juror got selected.
01:13:55.840 --> 01:13:57.520
Yes, I believe all of them are seated.
01:13:57.600 --> 01:13:59.920
And I think um I think Vladir is done.
01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:03.600
Uh yeah, I think they are fully seated because I think I talked in here.
01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:04.720
I was following it.
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:06.319
Let us we're gonna continue on.
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:07.119
We're gonna keep going.
01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:12.399
If I don't answer that, get get back with me at the end as a post-follow-up question.
01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:14.640
But um, she was indicted.
01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:15.520
Did I say that?
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:16.319
No, that was the other one.
01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:36.960
Okay, so as the charges, as they stand tonight, okay, so she, Lindsay Clancy, was indicted by a Plymouth County grand jury on September 15th, 2023, on three counts of murder under General Laws, Chapter 265, Section 1, one for each child, and three counts of strangulation or suffocation under chapter 265, section 15 DB.
01:14:37.279 --> 01:14:40.800
That is not the full picture of what she's on trial for starting this week.
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:57.119
So on July 8th, 2026, less than two weeks before opening statements, prosecutors formally dropped all three strangulation counts through a filing called, and I'm gonna say this wrong because it's it's legal, but it I think it's a null prosecue.
01:14:57.279 --> 01:14:59.680
Um, or pro prosecue?
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:01.439
I don't know.
01:15:01.520 --> 01:15:02.159
It's like Latin.
01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:02.800
It's Latin.
01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:04.399
I'm sorry, I it is what it is.
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:05.760
Come on, law student.
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:08.560
Well, you can't possibly know all of them.
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:09.760
Sorry, it is what it is.
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:15.119
Lindsay Clancy now stands trial on three counts of first degree murder only, one for each child.
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:24.720
And I will tell you that, and I even looked up, try to pronounce this right, but you need the phonetic.
01:15:25.119 --> 01:15:29.680
I tried to look for that, and it was like, I don't want to tell you if I don't know.
01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:36.239
Um, and I don't, we haven't covered this, like my teachers haven't covered this specific, so I can't hear them say it.
01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.880
So, but anyways, it's not an acquittal.
01:15:39.039 --> 01:15:41.840
Um, the null prosecue is what I'm prosecute.
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:46.319
Why prosecute what how do you say it?
01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:47.359
So you say it.
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:49.279
Read it and tell me what it says.
01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:51.600
I would look up how to say it first.
01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:52.800
Exactly.
01:15:53.039 --> 01:16:04.800
Okay, it's not an acquittal, it's not assigned the case weekend, it's the Commonwealth choosing to proceed on the murder count alone, since the underlying contact conduct is the same act for both charge sets.
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:05.279
Right.
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:08.880
So my section.
01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:09.439
Okay.
01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:10.800
My section.
01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:12.159
All right, go ahead.
01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:14.560
We're gonna have a we're gonna fight later.
01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:16.399
Somebody had, I don't remember who it was with someone else.
01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:17.039
The boxing gloves up.
01:16:17.119 --> 01:16:18.560
I think Amy put the boxing gloves up.
01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:20.399
Hey Julie, thank you for the follow.
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:21.920
We appreciate it so much.
01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:23.520
Thank you for the like.
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:29.119
So, prosecutors they streamline charges or a charge sheet before prial or trial.
01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:33.279
And the reason for that is because they want to have a little more clarity.
01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.079
Uh, trial economy, trials cost a lot of money.
01:16:36.319 --> 01:16:37.760
Um, and especially murder trials.
01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:39.119
Right, and uh high profile.
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:44.079
Understand that prosecutors work for the people, they work for the state.
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:45.600
The state is paying them.
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:48.880
It's money that comes from the people of the state.
01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:51.039
So we try to streamline those things.
01:16:51.199 --> 01:17:02.079
No, I say we, prosecutors try to streamline those things to so that they're in the people's good graces, even though these things take forever and they're drawn out and they cost so much money.
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:07.680
But um, Massachusetts doesn't use the word insanity in the courtroom.
01:17:07.840 --> 01:17:13.199
The actual legal standard comes from a 1967 case, Commonwealth vs.
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:14.079
McCau.
01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:34.720
So under the McAu standard, a defendant is not criminally responsible for a crime if at the time of the offense, as a result of mental disease or defect, she lacked the substantial capacity either to appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct or to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law.
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:50.000
All right, if you don't know anything about this case, we have not covered why at this point there is uh an insanity requirement or a substantial capacity requirement.
01:17:50.239 --> 01:18:04.319
We haven't covered any of that, so just to clarify, there are issues with this case regarding prescription medication, antidepressants, and all of these other things that she was taking.
01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:08.239
You're you're cutting into no no because people have no clue.
01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:09.520
There's like why chat.
01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:14.079
In the chat, really quick, does anyone know or have they heard anything about Lindsay Clancy?
01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:17.279
I'm sure Amy does because she was watching jury selection.
01:18:17.920 --> 01:18:21.760
Yes, but anybody Amy can't answer this one because I know she does.
01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:23.920
Um you've never heard of this one.
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:24.159
Okay.
01:18:24.319 --> 01:18:31.920
Yeah, see, Matt has no idea why is there a mental case for someone who killed their kids and jumped out of a window.
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:34.479
And now she's a paraplegic.
01:18:37.039 --> 01:18:38.800
Anyone else is gonna chime in?
01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:44.000
So that's what I'm saying, is you we have to bring that into context.
01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:46.800
And and we are, we're we're giving the backstory.
01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:50.000
Yeah, so two things most people don't know.
01:18:50.159 --> 01:18:51.439
First, thank you, Matt.
01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:55.920
I we we had that same discussion.
01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:57.520
We this was dinner.
01:18:57.600 --> 01:19:03.520
This was yeah, in case anyone really was confused on what we talk about a lot, this we're not lying.
01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:06.319
Like now, this is two different dinners, two different days.
01:19:06.399 --> 01:19:07.520
We're talking about two different cases.
01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:11.439
The reason we turn this into a podcast is because this is what we do in real life.
01:19:11.680 --> 01:19:35.439
This is yeah, this is this should be an IRL podcast, IRL broadcast, because these are the conversations we have, and we're like which then ends up one of us, usually me, going and pulling the actual Massachusetts code to say and point out to him, hey, XYZ, this is what the standard is, this is what the statute reads, and then we go from that way.
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:40.640
So this is not us being anyway other than who we are, yeah.
01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:45.760
Like I just saying, so what most people don't understand, okay?
01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:47.840
So first it's an either or test.
01:19:47.920 --> 01:19:50.960
The defense just always be liked and post that crap.
01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:57.279
Yeah, the defense only has to show that she lacked capacity on one of the two prongs, not both.
01:19:57.439 --> 01:20:06.239
So, second, and this is the big one, once the defense gives formal notice they're raising it, which Clancy's team did in December of 2024, the burden flips.
01:20:06.319 --> 01:20:14.880
It is not on her to prove she lacked criminal responsibility, it's on the Commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible.
01:20:15.039 --> 01:20:15.520
Right.
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:22.720
So, in the chat, let me know does that much of what we've discussed make sense.
01:20:23.119 --> 01:20:33.600
Yeah, and Matt already said that he can't imagine uh a sane person killing their kids and then trying to kill themselves.
01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:47.359
So behind the scenes conversations, you probably, I mean, it's very similar to what it is here, but it is I'm putting on here as well that if she's acquitted on this defense, she does not go free.
01:20:47.439 --> 01:20:54.319
Okay, she would be committed to a state psychiatric hospital under GLC 12316.
01:20:54.479 --> 01:20:54.640
Right.
01:20:54.800 --> 01:20:57.279
So subject to periodic review under 17.
01:20:57.520 --> 01:21:06.079
State that you know, not guilty by reason of lack, not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility is not an escape hatch.
01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:11.039
Okay, so it does not mean and but it's not a conviction of murder.
01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:18.720
And I will say, I will say, because I brought this up to Nick, and I'm I'm gonna try to pull it up and possibly see.
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:21.119
We have one more episode this week, so maybe Friday.
01:21:21.279 --> 01:21:36.479
Um, in regard to when it's mothers killing children, the statistics on that, the ratios on on like convictions and things like that is very interesting.
01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:44.159
And I don't want to throw things out that I can't like give you a citation for right off my head, but what you've read into already.
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:51.920
Yeah, it is it's usually again, this is not legal advice, this is not forensic science.
01:21:52.000 --> 01:22:07.359
I do not have a citation for this, but from my learnings of psychology, child development, and all of those things, criminal justice, all of those things, the topics that we've discussed in regard to this, most of the time it is some form of insanity plea.
01:22:07.520 --> 01:22:12.399
And most of them don't go to prison, they go to like a psychiatric hospital, right?
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:16.239
But I will say from and I'm covering the this next part here.
01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:17.439
Oh, the preliminary?
01:22:17.520 --> 01:22:18.720
Uh primary.
01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:27.840
No, underneath the guardrail, underneath the primary because it it goes right along from an investigator standpoint.
01:22:28.079 --> 01:22:48.000
We when I was an investigator, when we would try to uh uh make sure our charges fit the statute of a case for this, particularly because their defense is uh on the side of insanity or uh not determined to have the wherewithal to commit that crime.
01:22:48.319 --> 01:22:50.079
Well, there's that wherewithal word again.
01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:53.039
Because that's what it falls under.
01:22:53.199 --> 01:22:53.680
Yeah, I know.
01:22:54.640 --> 01:23:09.279
What prosecutors want the investigators to do is try to build that premeditation because especially with murder, uh murder, uh capital murder requires premeditation for the statute, typically under state and federal law.
01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:11.119
So that's a new one.
01:23:11.199 --> 01:23:17.520
I was gonna say, does anybody you could discuss um because murder is you're kind of touching on it.
01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:23.359
Yeah, that's she's being charged with three separate counts, along with the strangulation and all that.
01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:26.159
But murder specifically But they dropped the strangulation.
01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:28.079
Obviously, because murder is.
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:59.840
And it and it seems obvious that this would be the case, but a lot of people overlook the fact that yes, prosecutors and uh investigators are trying to find that premeditation within this case because the defense is so heavily on the insanity plea that she didn't have the mental capacity to do what she did.
01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:04.000
But they look for the premeditation.
01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:16.239
Is in order for it to be murdered, you have to have two what you have to have the modus operandi.
01:24:17.039 --> 01:24:18.319
No, you don't have to have a motive.
01:24:18.399 --> 01:24:19.359
You don't have to have a motive.
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:22.560
People try to find a motive, there's usually not a motive for murder.
01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:25.119
No, you have to have the act and you have to have the intent.
01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:25.840
You have to have both.
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:26.960
Oh, the intent, yeah.
01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:28.000
You have to have both.
01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:28.239
Yeah.
01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:30.960
So where you get the premeditation, that is your intent.
01:24:31.119 --> 01:24:32.880
Yes, yes, yes.
01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:36.960
So premeditated is what they're trying to prove.
01:24:37.199 --> 01:24:48.319
And where they're really, in my opinion, where they're really gonna struggle with this case is the fact that she sought repeatedly mental, uh psychiatric doctors.
01:24:48.560 --> 01:24:50.960
Multiple multiple different doctors.
01:24:51.119 --> 01:25:00.560
So she's got a I would say, in my my opinion, an extensive um history where she has with mental health, yes.
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:03.279
So um what?
01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:04.560
Oh, you need another mince?
01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:06.720
Do you not have words?
01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:08.399
It's like being in kindergarten.
01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:12.880
You were talking, use your words, all right.
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:20.960
So the the actual legal test pulled from the real 1967 opinion, not a paraphrase off the internet.
01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:25.760
This is the exact kind of thing we dig up for our episodes, okay?
01:25:26.079 --> 01:25:32.880
So when we are discussing the insanity plea, a lot of people get that wrong.
01:25:33.039 --> 01:25:36.880
Um, and I'm not trying to, again, you know, throw shade, okay?
01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:42.399
What I'm saying is we told you where that came from and what they are doing.
01:25:42.560 --> 01:25:44.960
And again, each state is different.
01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:48.960
So their laws are all written differently.
01:25:49.199 --> 01:25:56.800
Yeah, and had this case not um originated in Massachusetts, it might not be going down the way it is.
01:25:56.880 --> 01:26:13.119
And that's why I'm really excited about this specific um trial watch segment being put in, is I think that's gonna be one of those things like if we pick a different state, a different trial for each, you know, we will cover this one until it's done and then we will pick up with another trial.
01:26:13.359 --> 01:26:28.880
But in theory, you will be able to learn and see what I mean when I say that each state, so say then if you would have put Lindsay Clancy in this other state, it could be a totally different outcome process.
01:26:29.119 --> 01:26:32.800
So that's kind of what I'm trying to get across to um with that.
01:26:32.960 --> 01:26:34.159
Hopefully that makes sense.
01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:42.079
And I, you know, didn't confuse everybody, but this is one of the most contested pretrial motion battles that we've covered.
01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:51.840
Every ruling is pulled directly from the court's own docket, and again, that was the way they do their court dockets are different than Indiana, so that was a learning curve for me.
01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:54.319
I had to learn their docket system.
01:26:54.720 --> 01:27:03.359
Um, and I'm I'm not sure if it's covered tonight or if I put it in Friday's episode, but we're gonna continue to see.
01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:16.399
So the the defense actually asked the court to split the trial into two phases: one to decide if she committed the acts, and a second to decide if she was criminally responsible for those acts.
01:27:16.640 --> 01:27:18.239
So we have touched on that before.
01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:25.359
So, in in court, you're not just proving that a murder occurred or this crime occurred.
01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:33.039
Legally, you are you are connecting this specific person to this specific act that created this result.
01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:35.680
Yeah, that's the trail that you are proving.
01:27:35.760 --> 01:27:41.279
It's not just stating, well, I know it was Colonel Mustard that that did this.
01:27:41.439 --> 01:27:47.279
No, you have to say Colonel Mustard used the revolver in the library.
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:49.600
That is how that works in court.
01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:57.600
So however, this with this case, there are two separate, two separate things going on.
01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:04.000
There is one to say This person to prove this person did what they did.
01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:14.239
There's another, however, that's separate of that, saying that they did or did not have the mental capacity to do it.
01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:17.439
And I I am going to discuss on this really briefly.
01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:24.880
I'm gonna try to just kind of read these off because I think they're important and I think some of it gets skimmed across too quickly.
01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:30.079
Um, so there was a change of venue, okay, from Plymouth to elsewhere.
01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:31.119
That was denied.
01:28:32.079 --> 01:28:33.199
A motion for a change of venue.
01:28:33.439 --> 01:28:33.680
Yes.
01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:35.199
Um, yes, sorry.
01:28:35.359 --> 01:28:38.079
Um, November 18th of 2025, okay.
01:28:38.319 --> 01:28:45.680
Um, early access to the jury was so basically early access to the list was allowed.
01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:50.560
So April 23rd, the defense's woefully inadequate process argument succeeded.
01:28:50.720 --> 01:29:00.239
And then also the witness sequestration order was allowed on June 18th of 2026, with an exception carved out for Clancy's mother, father, and sister.
01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:09.760
So then jury sequestration, a separate question in regard to that, was denied July 13th of 2026.
01:29:09.840 --> 01:29:23.840
So a defense motion in Lemini, filed and denied the same day on 713, 2026, lines up with press reporting that the defense sought to call lay witnesses about their own postpartum experien experiences, it was denied.
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:27.199
The docket entry itself doesn't name the subject matter.
01:29:27.520 --> 01:29:29.600
So that's why we're calling it lay witness.
01:29:29.840 --> 01:29:37.600
Um, but the press sourced it's not docket confirmed, but as of right now, I haven't been able to actually pull that.
01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:38.399
I can just see.
01:29:38.560 --> 01:29:42.640
So what what I read to you basically is kind of the breakdown of what a docket looks like.
01:29:42.720 --> 01:29:52.880
I don't know if any in the chat anybody ever looked at a docket on um like one of the states uh like court websites.
01:29:53.039 --> 01:29:58.079
Has anybody I know when I talk about it, Nick knows because I'm always in the docket.
01:29:58.560 --> 01:30:07.600
I look at the docket, so he knows, but when I talk about the docket, like it the way most of it is that we'll give you like the a breakdown, not even a breakdown.
01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:12.159
It's like it gives you like a code said motion motion filed, whatever, and the date.
01:30:12.239 --> 01:30:18.880
And then some states, if you actually can click, it'll say image or it'll say exhibit, whatever.
01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:23.760
You can click on it and it'll give you the actual mine automatically downloads it.
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.800
So you can, but not all states do.
01:30:26.880 --> 01:30:36.479
And and again, when we move further into trial, sometimes a lot of that stuff kind of limits because they start, you know, sealing things and they're like, no, you can have it after the trial.
01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:42.239
So say all that to say there was a lot of movement on this case.
01:30:42.479 --> 01:30:44.880
It's not just an open and shut.
01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:46.159
This is what the case was.
01:30:46.319 --> 01:30:47.279
I'm gonna read it to you.
01:30:47.359 --> 01:30:49.840
I want you to understand there was quite a bit.
01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:51.359
Well, it started two years ago.
01:30:51.520 --> 01:30:56.640
Yeah, quite a bit of stuff that's gone on, and I did pull quite a bit of it.
01:30:56.800 --> 01:31:07.359
Um, so the the Commonwealth's motion to exclude several late disclosed defense expert witness, um, it was opposed, shows no formal ruling entry in the docket.
01:31:07.520 --> 01:31:13.439
Um, but it's now press confirmed by two independent outlets, Court TV and NBC 10 Boston.
01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:19.600
The latter describing the fence as denied its bid to add undisclosed medical experts.
01:31:21.119 --> 01:31:26.239
Um, also same open status for the jury instruction.
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:30.319
So the docket shows it's under advisement, no ruling yet.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:34.800
Um, so this is where we did.
01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:40.720
Who didn't?
01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:53.760
This is very similar in that there was a late defense expert witness disclosure fight right before the trial.
01:31:54.079 --> 01:31:58.399
Um, we've seen this, uh I hate to say this.
01:31:58.479 --> 01:32:02.960
We've seen this before in other high-profile Massachusetts cases.
01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:27.119
So what I will say that we have learned, and I have learned through uh we've talked about attorneys have strategy, and there also are kind of general practices that attorneys have, and it's kind of a standard in unwritten procedure kind of thing.
01:32:29.840 --> 01:32:35.039
Imagine a court and a trial being a baseball game.
01:32:35.840 --> 01:32:45.439
You're gonna put certain players in at certain times, you're also going to run certain plays depending on who's on base.
01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:47.279
I don't know.
01:32:47.439 --> 01:32:48.319
Every dollar.
01:32:49.359 --> 01:32:50.319
Exactly.
01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:53.520
What's on second?
01:32:54.079 --> 01:32:55.840
I don't know! Third base.
01:32:56.800 --> 01:32:59.600
So sorry.
01:32:59.760 --> 01:33:00.239
That's all right.
01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:02.720
That's Abbott and Costello, for all you that didn't know.
01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:03.600
You need to watch that.
01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:04.079
Yeah.
01:33:04.319 --> 01:33:07.039
No, we're gonna go over the evidentiary rulings for trial.
01:33:07.119 --> 01:33:08.399
Uh yeah, see?
01:33:09.279 --> 01:33:09.760
Exactly.
01:33:09.920 --> 01:33:10.800
Who's on third?
01:33:11.039 --> 01:33:12.960
The rule 403 teaching.
01:33:13.039 --> 01:33:15.520
This is a teaching moment for rule 403.
01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:19.359
We're talking about the evidence that's allowed in court.
01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:21.279
So, like I was talking about the baseball game.
01:33:21.520 --> 01:33:22.479
You can cover this whole section.
01:33:22.640 --> 01:33:22.880
Okay.
01:33:23.199 --> 01:33:24.079
You can do 2D one.
01:33:24.479 --> 01:33:25.279
It's easy.
01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:32.319
Um relate it to a baseball game where you're gonna run different plays, or a basketball game for that matter.
01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:36.560
You're gonna run different plays with who's out there, who's on the playing field.
01:33:36.800 --> 01:33:39.680
And that being said, a courtroom is no different.
01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:41.199
Absolutely no different.
01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:54.000
You're going to try to get stuff suppressed and allowed based on who your opponent is going to bring forward or try to that leg try to suppress.
01:33:54.319 --> 01:33:55.439
Gotta resuate.
01:33:55.760 --> 01:34:04.479
So, with this, um, photographs of the three children while alive is being allowed for the trial.
01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:07.520
The autopsy and crime scene photographs is being allowed.
01:34:07.680 --> 01:34:10.960
Now, these are all motions that had to be presented to the court.
01:34:11.279 --> 01:34:20.720
Or not necessarily motion to it's typically when like uh one side is c is is saying yes, all evidence, and the other one is saying no.
01:34:21.119 --> 01:34:21.279
Right.
01:34:21.359 --> 01:34:23.199
The defense is gonna always say no.
01:34:23.439 --> 01:34:25.119
We don't want to want that in.
01:34:25.439 --> 01:34:38.800
They want to suppress under prejudice, uh, is typically how it works because that evidence is too prejudicial to a jury, which honestly in the court uh it makes sense, but to a lay person it doesn't.
01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:41.600
Why wouldn't all the evidence be presented anyway?
01:34:41.840 --> 01:34:44.640
Because it's evidence or it's information.
01:34:45.439 --> 01:34:54.880
That's just how the court systems work, and that's the way they've done it for years and years and years, and you have to fight to get information in or get information suppressed.
01:34:55.600 --> 01:35:03.119
So, uh, because information may be fabricated, it may cover this one, it may be actual production.
01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:03.680
No.
01:35:03.840 --> 01:35:23.039
Uh a 3D model of the family's home, the Ducksbury home, to use for trials been allowed, subject to foundation, just the foundation of the the the case itself, not particularly who moved where and did what.
01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:25.199
It's just the 3D model.
01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:30.479
And also, when we say foundation, it is meaning like 2D information.
01:35:30.560 --> 01:35:34.159
So it's not gonna be like a it's not gonna have the dead bodies and where they're we're at or anything like that.
01:35:34.239 --> 01:35:34.960
It's just a 3D model.
01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:37.600
That would be that would fall under your crime scene photos.
01:35:37.680 --> 01:35:44.800
But what I mean is it's not like the Zillow 3D walkthrough where it's like, this is our living room, and this is it's got a three-bedroom, three-bath.
01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:55.039
It that's not really also Patrick Clancy's 911 call allowed to be played to the jury with limiting instruction from the judge.
01:35:55.359 --> 01:36:13.760
So all that being said, is it's a playbook, it's it's what the prosecution they want to allow all the evidence, obviously, that's gonna be beneficial to them, and the defense wants to suppress all the end uh evidence that is gonna hurt them.
01:36:13.920 --> 01:36:16.079
That's the that is just the way it works.
01:36:16.239 --> 01:36:35.439
Um, also, the defense has the ability to want to have evidence presented, you know, during the discovery process, and the prosecution obviously has the opportunity to request that it is suppressed, and a judge is there to make that determination.
01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:43.520
So ultimately, the judge has the decision on whether or not evidence is brought forward to the jury in the trial.
01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:50.640
But that's that's the 403 explanation, and now we're going to move on to what Amy had talked about.
01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:53.199
The house isn't even going to look the same.
01:36:53.439 --> 01:36:54.079
Yeah.
01:36:55.119 --> 01:36:57.199
Yeah, they're not there's a lot.
01:36:57.359 --> 01:37:03.680
In this case, like I I'll be honest, like this case to me is uh okay.
01:37:04.079 --> 01:37:10.479
Let's go ahead and we're gonna move on to what I think we've briefly discussed this and other we've talked about in other episodes.
01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:16.079
So voidir, which is basically what jury selection, okay?
01:37:16.239 --> 01:37:18.560
And we're gonna discuss why it looks different here.
01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:28.239
So voidir, which is French for to speak the truth, just means questioning prospective jurors before they're seated, routine in pretty much all cases.
01:37:28.479 --> 01:37:30.319
Trial, trial cases, yeah.
01:37:30.560 --> 01:37:39.439
Um, so individual versus panel voidir, why attorneys are probing jurors' personal views on mental illness specifically here?
01:37:39.680 --> 01:37:40.880
That's not general.
01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:41.359
Okay.
01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:54.560
So the defense submitted a proposed 48 question juror questionnaire in April of 2026, including, quote, would you be able to return a verdict of not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility?
01:37:54.800 --> 01:38:08.880
End quote, defense attorney Kevin Reddington separately raised concerns that questions probing jurors' personal mental health history could be misused to strike jurors unfairly, given the stigma attached to those conditions.
01:38:09.279 --> 01:38:11.840
So that was the defense's proposed questionnaire.
01:38:11.920 --> 01:38:15.680
It's not confirmed as the final version that was actually put to the jurors.
01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:16.159
Okay.
01:38:16.479 --> 01:38:24.479
Um the court is seating a panel of 18, 12 jurors and six alternates, citing the case's exceptional emotional weight.
01:38:24.640 --> 01:38:29.279
So jury selection began Monday, July 20th, with five jurors seated that first day.
01:38:29.439 --> 01:38:41.920
On Tuesday, July 21st, Wire reports that the count at nine by the lunch break, courtroom tracking coverage that continued through the full afternoon session, put the end of day total at 12.
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:46.479
Six women and six men, which quite honestly, I was like, wow, okay.
01:38:46.640 --> 01:38:49.920
Um, with six more, including alternates still needed.
01:38:50.159 --> 01:38:56.000
So, same day update today, jury selection continued um in front of Judge William F.
01:38:56.079 --> 01:38:56.720
Sullivan.
01:38:56.800 --> 01:39:04.640
Courtroom tracking coverage had roughly 17 of the 18 seats filled by the early afternoon recess, but I guess so.
01:39:04.800 --> 01:39:06.239
The court did not finish.
01:39:06.319 --> 01:39:09.279
Um, selection continues tomorrow, Thursday at 11 a.m.
01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:11.520
Amy, that answers your question.
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:13.680
And I'm trying to read what I have in here.
01:39:13.920 --> 01:39:14.239
K.O.
01:39:14.399 --> 01:39:15.760
Yes, this is about Clancy.
01:39:16.079 --> 01:39:16.720
Yes.
01:39:17.279 --> 01:39:29.520
Uh if you just joined us, we're discussing um the trial procedure and we'll continue be the trial watch and be continued to discuss the uh Clancy case.
01:39:29.680 --> 01:39:49.600
I am gonna say here that there is a source discrepancy worth, um, which I did check, but the Docket's own event grid lists, I think it's Gildia, Gildia uh honorable mark for the 720-721 trial sessions, but the Dockets narrative text for both days explicitly reads before Sullivan J.
01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:54.079
So we actually yeah, I was really surprised too.
01:39:54.239 --> 01:39:57.439
Um, especially giving some of the cases.
01:39:57.520 --> 01:40:10.800
I mean, if we think back to if we think Karen Reed or if we think some of our other high-profile cases that we've watched, jury selection is a very it can be because I'm surprised that they didn't have more back and forth and we didn't throw jurors out.
01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:15.520
I mean, again, we I think we saw very a quick jury selection.
01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:23.279
So um uh I'm reading this.
01:40:23.439 --> 01:40:27.920
Oh, so uh one live detail worth noting.
01:40:28.319 --> 01:40:39.520
Um reporting from inside jury selection shows the court actually questioning prospective jurors individually at sidebar, which is functionally the individual voidier the Commonwealth asked for back in June.
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:46.239
There's no endorsement entry in the docket confirming that request was formally allowed, but it appears to be happening in practice.
01:40:46.560 --> 01:40:51.680
So this jury is being seated as we're live and genuinely happening in real time.
01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:58.319
If you want to catch every update as it lands, follow on TikTok, subscribe on YouTube where the full replay goes up after air.
01:40:58.399 --> 01:41:25.600
And again, I want to say as we're covering this, that we are not court TV, we are not um attorneys, we are not um, I don't even know what else we are not, but we are your normal people that have some area now, and again, we'll touch on this briefly because, for example, we talked about briefly lay witnesses, and we've talked in previous episodes about expert witnesses.
01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:36.399
I don't think, sorry, I just am kind of one of those humbly type people, I don't think either of us would qualify as expert witnesses, but I think we are above a lay witness.
01:41:36.560 --> 01:41:42.800
So the lay witness is like your normal, uh, your common everyday Hey now, come down easy.
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:46.720
I would I would be an expert witness in like firearms technology.
01:41:46.960 --> 01:41:48.399
Okay, well, yeah, okay, then fine.
01:41:48.479 --> 01:41:52.239
Then I would, if you were talking private investigations, then I could be an expert witness.
01:41:52.399 --> 01:41:52.640
Exactly.
01:41:52.880 --> 01:42:04.319
I'm just saying we use a little bit of more of our knowledge in that we have had experience or extra trainings or knowledge, learning, education.
01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:09.680
I mean, you have a criminal justice degree with a uh concentration of forensic psychology.
01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:12.479
That's more than what a lot of other people could say when it comes to that.
01:42:12.560 --> 01:42:14.159
So take that with a grain of salt.
01:42:14.319 --> 01:42:18.960
I don't want, I don't need like 500 people being like they're claiming to be this or they're claiming to be that.
01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:30.720
No, we do quite a bit of research, but if we have some areas that we struggle to understand, I know the majority of people of what they see on TV just because people will come to us and ask us.
01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:32.880
Hang on, Amy, what switch with the mics?
01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:34.159
Can you hear me now?
01:42:35.039 --> 01:42:35.680
Better?
01:42:35.920 --> 01:42:36.560
Worse?
01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:37.520
I don't know.
01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:38.479
Can you hear me now?
01:42:38.640 --> 01:42:43.279
Sorry, this is the first time we're doing this, so we're trying to get everything squared away.
01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:46.000
This is super low budget production, guys.
01:42:46.479 --> 01:42:48.319
We're normal people.
01:42:48.479 --> 01:42:51.279
I know, we're just can you still hear us though?
01:42:51.439 --> 01:42:52.720
Like everything's still working.
01:42:53.119 --> 01:42:54.159
Give us some likes.
01:42:55.279 --> 01:42:56.800
Hearts, anything.
01:42:58.479 --> 01:43:00.079
Can you are we still there?
01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:01.199
I don't know.
01:43:01.760 --> 01:43:02.399
Okay, good.
01:43:02.560 --> 01:43:03.920
Well, if you can hear, that's great.
01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:07.279
I mean, and you can see us, and we're not like okay.
01:43:07.359 --> 01:43:08.000
We got some likes there.
01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:08.159
Yeah.
01:43:08.560 --> 01:43:10.319
29,000, we're almost to 30,000.
01:43:10.479 --> 01:43:11.199
That's crazy.
01:43:14.560 --> 01:43:15.439
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:16.239
We appreciate it.
01:43:16.319 --> 01:43:20.960
And again, give us some follow, share, because I feel like this is genuine.
01:43:21.039 --> 01:43:23.359
Like, we try to be as down to earth as we can.
01:43:23.760 --> 01:43:27.119
And try to we we want you to ask us questions.
01:43:27.359 --> 01:43:40.079
We want you to understand because genuine life, I feel like, in all honesty, when people watch trials and cases in real time, they need to understand that it could be any one of them or their loved ones.
01:43:40.159 --> 01:43:47.439
Yeah, and they should have a general understanding of our our court systems, our criminal justice systems.
01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:50.479
I think it's a civic responsibility, a civil duty.
01:43:50.720 --> 01:43:52.399
So that's kind of where we are.
01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:57.680
And hopefully that will end help uh lessen the confusion.
01:43:58.319 --> 01:43:58.640
Yep.
01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:05.279
All right, so with this case, with this trial, strip away procedure, and this is the real fight.
01:44:05.520 --> 01:44:22.880
The Commonwealth's theor theory is that Clancy researched over multiple days how to do this and timed her husband's errands precisely, a premeditation that cuts hard against a psychotic break claim.
01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:41.680
The defense theory is that she spent months trying to get help, hospitalizations, medications, crisis calls, and it was a grip of a rare severe condition that was never properly treated.
01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:44.319
That's essentially the sides that we're seeing here.
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:58.640
You can go ahead and cover the next the medication and treatment uh timeline courses from a civil wrongful death complaint filed by Patrick Clam Clancy against her providers.
01:44:59.439 --> 01:45:01.920
His legal terms characterization.
01:45:04.479 --> 01:45:05.920
That's the second word.
01:45:07.039 --> 01:45:08.319
I can't I can't read.
01:45:08.479 --> 01:45:08.800
I know.
01:45:08.880 --> 01:45:09.840
Do I need to bring it closer?
01:45:10.239 --> 01:45:11.439
Yeah, it's it's so far away.
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:13.119
I you're making fun of me now.
01:45:13.199 --> 01:45:14.720
I really can't read far away.
01:45:14.800 --> 01:45:15.840
You're mean.
01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:20.479
So his legal teams characterization.
01:45:20.720 --> 01:45:26.079
They filed a case, all four defendants have where is that?
01:45:26.319 --> 01:45:26.560
Okay.
01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:34.800
So there's four defendants bec the defendants of that civil case are the medical providers and all of that.
01:45:34.960 --> 01:45:47.600
Because he filed a suit against the medical providers claiming that there was a wrongful death of his children because they they didn't fix her.
01:45:47.840 --> 01:45:48.079
Right.
01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:51.680
And I will say, because again, I uh this is a little unfair.
01:45:51.760 --> 01:45:58.880
Now, warning, I did give him warning that we were talking, and this wasn't going to be an ongoing segment, so take that as you will.
01:45:59.199 --> 01:46:04.720
But I will say that in in terms of this case, Lindsay has two.
01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:07.920
She has her criminal case, and she also has her own civil case.
01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:10.479
Oh, we're not talking about that yet.
01:46:10.640 --> 01:46:11.439
We're getting ready to do that.
01:46:11.760 --> 01:46:12.640
You're confusing people.
01:46:12.800 --> 01:46:16.640
No, I'm just I clearly said filed by Patrick Clancy.
01:46:17.199 --> 01:46:21.520
Patrick has a civil, Lindsay has a civil, and then she also has her criminal case.
01:46:21.760 --> 01:46:22.640
You're skipping ahead.
01:46:22.800 --> 01:46:25.039
I'm not skipping ahead, I'm just trying to clarify.
01:46:25.119 --> 01:46:38.800
So, anyways, they have gone after those medical professions or establishments that provided care leading up to the events that took place that warranted the criminal investigation.
01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:44.239
But that no courts ruled on whether these allegations everything is very much still moving through the system.
01:46:44.399 --> 01:46:49.119
So yeah, those civil claims are still out there, they have not been ruled on.
01:46:49.359 --> 01:46:49.680
Correct.
01:46:49.840 --> 01:46:54.720
So, according to that civil complaint, and this is Patrick's, I believe, is where we were discussing right now.
01:46:54.880 --> 01:47:07.199
Clancy told her provider she was what hearing what she described as a compelling, unrecognizable male voice telling her, in her words, this is your last chance, and that she had to take her children with her.
01:47:07.359 --> 01:47:15.039
Courtroom reporting this week describes her account in similar terms: a voice telling her, This is your last chance, kill the children so you can kill yourself.
01:47:15.199 --> 01:47:19.920
So this is Clancy's own reported account of her mental state, not a neutral fact.
01:47:20.159 --> 01:47:24.880
Frame, okay, this is like a he said she said according to her account.
01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:33.039
Okay, so and again, and Amy's saying she feels it would be hard to rule on those until hers is over.
01:47:34.000 --> 01:47:55.520
I I'm telling you, when I I and again, like I said, I I Massachusetts system was a little bit different because, like in their system, so they each have there's three different case numbers, and so when you go in and you pull the case number, so for instance, like when you're looking at Patrick's, it's all of the people that are a party to it, so that's the line.
01:47:55.600 --> 01:48:01.840
Like it's one, they all have the same case number, but they all get like a drop down, and it's like all right.
01:48:01.920 --> 01:48:05.600
This is this is my opinion, and I'm gonna throw this in there real quick.
01:48:06.720 --> 01:48:12.800
There's a reason for the, and we're getting ready to talk about Lindsay's civil suit because she has a silver suit of her own.
01:48:13.039 --> 01:48:13.840
A silver suit?
01:48:14.000 --> 01:49:23.520
Yes, silver of her own on this, and the reason being is and that was brought on by her defense attorneys, obviously, because think about it this way if you can prove civilly, or you can have it found by a court civilly, even though you're already being tried for murder, that you were wrongfully treated under a certain medical condition during uh for with medical providers and all that, if you can prove that in a court, that helps you in a criminal court, it's more evidence to a criminal court and can be brought forward saying, hey, it was already found that there was negligence or whatever it may have been, whatever they try to prove in the civil case, even though it's a whole nother case, it has to pertain to her her her mindset at the time, which is a premeditation factor when it comes to murder.
01:49:23.680 --> 01:49:28.560
Now, are are we saying that manslaughter's off the table or secondary murder, all that stuff?
01:49:28.640 --> 01:49:35.199
No, but murder, it could potentially bring that back to we have to have intent, and there has to be the act.
01:49:36.000 --> 01:49:37.359
So think about it that way.
01:49:37.520 --> 01:49:44.319
You know, it it is a tactic, it is a play that the defense is playing.
01:49:44.479 --> 01:49:47.039
It's uh in this game.
01:49:47.359 --> 01:49:49.279
His Nick's opinion.
01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:51.840
Yeah, that's again, but think about it.
01:49:52.000 --> 01:49:55.199
It makes logical sense for an attorney to do that.
01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:57.680
The thing is, it could backfire.
01:49:58.319 --> 01:50:05.199
Because It could be this civil case could be drawn out long after the criminal case.
01:50:05.520 --> 01:50:24.960
I will say, if you if you actually listen to the podcast, The Case Walker Chronicles, we have discussed, say, for instance, when we discussed Jill Behrman, and we talked about how they're they the family was not getting any resolution from the criminal case, then they pursued the civil side of things.
01:50:25.119 --> 01:50:43.680
So I'm not saying it's uncommon to have the civil and criminal uh running alongside or to counteract what the other one does or whatever, but I will say in theory, once there is some kind of proof in the court system, it helps it helps one or both, or hurts.
01:50:43.840 --> 01:50:44.079
Yes.
01:50:44.319 --> 01:50:58.399
So in theory, if we are saying that, you know, this civil case, there is a finding that is ruled as truth, then that could potentially change something in the criminal, or vice versa.
01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:02.960
So there is also a little Go ahead.
01:51:03.199 --> 01:51:09.760
There is a little um uneasiness, I think, that could come about when you're doing this.
01:51:09.840 --> 01:51:23.359
And I'm not comfortable claiming that this is what that I could actually pull the dates when all this was filed, but it just we again our analysis, not not legal advice.
01:51:23.600 --> 01:51:27.199
So, and I actually am gonna tell you right here.
01:51:27.439 --> 01:51:36.720
So on January 22nd of 2026, Lindsay Clancy filed her own medical malpractice suit in Norfolk Superior Court.
01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:43.760
Now, if you remember when we went back to the very beginning, we talked about which county is the criminal case in.
01:51:44.399 --> 01:51:45.359
Do you remember?
01:51:48.880 --> 01:51:50.239
This is a quiz.
01:51:52.560 --> 01:51:56.079
Uh that one's in Norfolk County.
01:51:56.239 --> 01:51:57.039
No, I don't remember.
01:51:57.359 --> 01:51:57.920
Plymouth.
01:51:58.159 --> 01:52:02.319
Her criminal is in Plymouth, and her civil is in Norfolk.
01:52:02.479 --> 01:52:05.840
Specifically assigned to the same judge as Patrick's case.
01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:07.359
Michael Doolin.
01:52:07.439 --> 01:52:11.359
So her complaint names the same four defendants Patrick sued Doctors, Dr.
01:52:11.520 --> 01:52:20.640
Tufts, Nurse Jolotta, Astor Mental Health, and South Shore Health System, plus seven more.
01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:26.560
McLean Hospital, Women and Inference Hospital of Rhode Island, and five individually named providers, Dr.
01:52:26.640 --> 01:52:28.239
Aliyah Goodhart, Dr.
01:52:28.399 --> 01:52:30.720
Zabida Diaz, Dr.
01:52:30.800 --> 01:52:37.840
Elizabeth Modva, nurse practitioner Julie Paul, and licensed mental health counselor Letitia Dukes.
01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:46.880
So Lindsay's own complaint describes a woman who did everything the textbook says to do.
01:52:47.039 --> 01:52:57.199
She recognized something was wrong, sought psychiatric care on her own initiative, went to emergency rooms, called the suicide hotline, and told her providers each time her symptoms were getting worse.
01:52:57.359 --> 01:53:12.720
Her complaint alleges her care was, in its own words, significantly complicated by polypharmacy and the involvement of multiple prescribers, which in effect obscured an accurate diagnosis and appropriate intervention and treatment.
01:53:12.880 --> 01:53:20.479
At Women's and Infants Hospital in December of 2022, her own depression and anxiety screening scores were severe.
01:53:20.640 --> 01:53:40.399
And the complaint alleges the attending psychiatrist there concluded she had no postpartum depression and no bipolar disorder, in part because that psychiatrist never asked about her earlier hypomanic episode after her second child's birth.
01:54:07.279 --> 01:54:18.560
And it's a little when it comes to some of these claims, things are not necessarily she filed it in Norfolk County.
01:54:18.640 --> 01:54:20.479
She's from Plymouth County.
01:54:21.359 --> 01:54:22.399
I'm just saying there's no.
01:54:22.720 --> 01:54:23.840
No, yeah, I know.
01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:28.960
So anyway, one more thing flagged for a future episode, not tonight.
01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:33.359
This docket shows a stipulation referencing an offer of proof and a tribunal.
01:54:33.439 --> 01:54:55.520
That's Massachusetts Mandatory Medical My Practice Tribunal under GLC 23160B, a single Superior Court justice, a Massachusetts licensed physician, and an attorney reviewing whether the plaintiff's offer of proof raises a legitimate question of liability appropriate for judicial inquiry, or whether it's merely an unfortunate medical result.
01:54:55.760 --> 01:54:59.600
Lindsay's offer of proof was filed July 8th, 2026.
01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:02.319
No tribunal ruling yet.
01:55:07.680 --> 01:55:17.760
Also worth flagging for the future episode: the answer filed by three of the defendants, Joel A Paul and South Shore Health, shows this complaint runs 55 separate counts.
01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:21.840
Essentially, the same handful of claims repeated once per defendant.
01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:25.520
Two of their affirmative defenses are genuinely teachable.
01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:30.880
First, comparative negligence under GL 231B.
01:55:31.359 --> 01:55:50.239
Second, and this one tends to surprise people, South Shore Health is invoking GL23185K, Massachusetts charitable immunity statute, arguing that as a nonprofit, any recovery against it is statutorily capped regardless of what a jury finds.
01:55:50.800 --> 01:55:57.199
This woman had sought mental health treatment.
01:55:58.560 --> 01:56:07.760
She noticed, or they, as a married couple, noticed a problem and wanted to uh fix it.
01:56:08.479 --> 01:56:10.319
Isn't that what everybody does?
01:56:10.640 --> 01:56:23.760
I will say what what draws me to this more, um, and because mental health has such a stigma around it, and anyone that has followed me for any length of time knows obviously that is a huge thing for me.
01:56:24.000 --> 01:56:29.279
Um, I huge mental health advocate, seeking help, all of those things.
01:56:29.520 --> 01:56:55.279
But she was a nurse, and I'm not saying that you know, like nurses are above somebody else, but considering what you was a labor and delivery nurse, but you learn and like when you think of postpartum depression, which is its own thing, and they are actually talking about um postpartum psychosis, so that's it's a whole other thing, but in regards to just just say mental health, because nurses they all go through, and I'm I'm drawing a blank on the names.
01:56:55.439 --> 01:57:02.319
Um it's not a cohort, it it's like units, so it's they do like labor and delivery, same with doctors.
01:57:02.479 --> 01:57:09.680
They go through, you know, they have um emergency, they have all these different areas that they have to have a general understanding.
01:57:09.840 --> 01:57:10.960
So she does have a lot of people.
01:57:11.119 --> 01:57:12.560
Amy, you're exact you're exactly right.
01:57:12.640 --> 01:57:14.239
She was super versed in all the signs.
01:57:14.399 --> 01:57:30.800
Yeah, I mean, like, so to me, I think that speaks even more highly because there's a lot of times where people that are just not nurses or doctors, or they don't have, you know, even mental health therapists or anything like that, they don't have that um extra knowledge.
01:57:31.039 --> 01:57:48.239
They may have a different um understanding of the signs, or you know, but when to me, someone who is very well aware of it, now again, there's that whole other aspect of mental health where you don't want to have anything wrong with you, so you kind of suppress it.
01:57:48.720 --> 01:57:52.319
From my understanding so far, it seems like that was not the case.
01:57:52.479 --> 01:58:12.560
No, but I'm I'm trying to remain um open and and watch things play out because I don't want them, I don't think that's I don't think I have to be very careful, but I don't think you can just say, well, he had stuff going on mentally, so that's why this occurred and that makes it okay, or whatever.
01:58:12.640 --> 01:58:13.680
No, it doesn't.
01:58:14.000 --> 01:58:15.199
No, it doesn't no, absolutely not.
01:58:15.520 --> 01:58:16.960
I don't think that that's what we're trying to say.
01:58:17.039 --> 01:58:20.720
I'm just saying that I don't think it's a cut and dry.
01:58:21.520 --> 01:58:21.920
Not at all.
01:58:22.079 --> 01:58:22.800
I don't think so either.
01:58:23.039 --> 01:58:24.479
I think I think it'll continue.
01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:29.199
And what is sad is that this was the conclusion.
01:58:30.079 --> 01:58:39.920
That was the resolution that it it appears that that was her resolution was to end the life of her children and her own.
01:58:40.079 --> 01:58:44.560
Um, and she was successful on three parts of that, not the fourth.
01:58:45.199 --> 01:58:49.039
I I just I personally think this is a very devastating case.
01:58:49.199 --> 01:59:02.159
And I I don't I know again, I put we put ourselves out there for a lot of things, obviously, but it's like you know, I I think of it in terms of uh of that as a human, though.
01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:06.640
Four no Amy, not three, four, five, multiple, multiple.
01:59:07.039 --> 01:59:15.520
Yeah, because you look at the look at the because everyone who was affected, you know, lost lost grandkids, lost cousins, maybe, you know, all of this.
01:59:15.600 --> 01:59:43.039
It's it's terrible, it's awful, and it it comes to full circle to the mental health issue that is going on in this country, on top of the ability to get adequate health care and and be treated, you know, well, because I again I don't I don't think that we really um there's still so much that is unknown about mental health, obviously, and it is ever evolving and ever changing.
01:59:43.199 --> 01:59:58.479
And I understand that there are doctors that have specialties in certain areas, but again, there are we just need to have a bigger conversation about mental health, and people need to not be so upset, like they need to be willing to talk about it.
01:59:58.560 --> 02:00:02.720
It's not let's move on to our clothes because your phone is gonna die.
02:00:04.000 --> 02:00:05.760
Is the particulars for tonight?
02:00:06.239 --> 02:00:07.760
Headlines in, details begin.
02:00:07.840 --> 02:00:09.439
We're back Friday at 9 Eastern.
02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:12.079
Our opinion, our analysis, not legal advice.
02:00:12.239 --> 02:00:16.239
Thank you for walking the cases with us, and we hope to see you Friday at nine.
02:00:16.479 --> 02:00:17.760
Love you guys.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:01.520
So happy Wednesday.
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:02.799
Welcome back to the particulars.
00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:03.680
I'm Lacey.
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:04.799
And I'm Nick.
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:12.560
And a quick reminder before we get into anything, everything you hear from us tonight is our opinion and our analysis based on the public record.
00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:18.079
It is not legal advice, and where a case is still working its way through the system, the presumption of innocence applies.
00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:19.440
Full stop every time.
00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:25.359
One more thing, every episode, everything you're about to hear was fact-checked and verified as of 5 30 p.m.
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:26.640
Eastern this afternoon.
00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:31.120
If something changed after that cutoff, we didn't know about it when we built tonight's show.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:33.759
That's how live news works.
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.240
So I will go ahead and with some of the teasers.
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Anybody have any idea?
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.640
If you saw tonight's graphic, you should have some ideas about what we're covering.
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But does anybody have anything in the chat?
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Anybody have any questions, things they want us to talk about?
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Thank you for the heart, Amy.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.200
We are going to take, oh, thank you.
00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:00.960
We are going, yeah.
00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:05.359
We're going to cover, and it's I I told Nick we actually went to dinner.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.719
Sorry, I touched my microphone.
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:07.280
I heard it.
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:09.200
I'm not used to having that there.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:17.280
Um, we went to dinner tonight, and I kind of told him that I was introducing a new segment tonight on the live, and he was like, You're killing me, Smalls.
00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:18.560
But it won't be bad.
00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.760
It is gonna be, it's gonna be, I don't want to say exciting.
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That makes it sound horrible.
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But there is a case that is just starting in the judicial system, so to speak.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:39.680
So, as you can probably guess, it is the Lindsay Clancy murder trial, and it's going on right now in Plymouth County.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:52.319
And what we're gonna be doing throughout the course of her trial is we will cover that trial every Monday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday at nine.
00:01:52.400 --> 00:02:07.040
When we do it, she will have her own segment built into the particulars so you will be able to see and have a more layperson understanding of what's going on in her trial as it unfolds live.
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:11.360
If you are wanting to watch the trial or anything like that in particular, we're not gonna do that.
00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:19.280
We're just gonna kind of give you the recaps and give our I don't even want to say analysis, but how we do all of our other cases.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:20.800
We're gonna try to explain things.
00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:27.120
So if there's something that happens, or an expert witness, or you know, something like that during the case, we'll be able to explain that.
00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:33.759
And this is, I think, gonna be very beneficial because you'll be able to follow along as the case progresses.
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So that is our new segment.
00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:48.240
Um, we will also be talking about criminal responsibility, and we also have some very exciting news.
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You don't look excited.
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I'm pregnant.
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No, um, no, I guess it is me still.
00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:02.240
So we do have our Kofi set up and we did have our first donation.
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:02.879
Yeah.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.639
So thank you, Amy, for our first donation.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:17.360
And we do have now my notes say two stickers, but I went ahead and I I raised the bar a little bit more for all of our viewers and our listeners.
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:26.159
We have a t-shirt live in our sticker mule store, specially designed for all of our wonderful fans.
00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:34.479
So if you want a t-shirt, if you want to donate, uh, if you want to do any of those things, I do have my link tree set up.
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You can find it all from there.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.840
So we give the people what they want, right?
00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.840
So, quick bridge on some open threads.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:56.319
I spent a lot of time today going through um all the cases that we have covered, our topics that we have covered since our first episode of the particulars.
00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:06.800
And I tried to look at um, then I went through every live stream that we've done and I tried to see where have we yeah, it merch is gonna be difficult.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:13.759
I mean, for me to do because it took me quite a long time to design that shirt and get it pushed out, but it'll be good once it's up and running.
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:15.120
So sorry.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.319
Um keep going.
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That's so distracting.
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Don't look at it.
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Um I oh my brain, there's too much going on.
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Okay, sorry.
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So um I went back through all the cases and the lives, and I tried to track what we have covered, what we've done updates with, and things like that.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:47.279
So tonight I will tell you forewarn, I'm gonna try to do give you any updates that I've been able to find before we pressed like live.
00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:48.399
Okay, so here we go.
00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:49.680
Let's get into it.
00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:55.839
Um, there really hasn't been anything material-wise that's a full segment.
00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:04.560
And when I say a full segment, that's like in regards to our um Lindsay Clancy case that is getting its own full segment every time we go through.
00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.519
So when I say it didn't get a full segment, it's just me right now giving you the rundown.
00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:15.120
Okay, so um, I talked about the 530.
00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.839
So, really quick, Paul Pelosi, the hit and run.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.959
Uh, we talked about that back in episode one.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:33.680
Um, the Napa County DA's office filed charges Friday, July 17th, a misdemeanor hit and run, leaving the scene of an accident, which was tied to his July 3rd crash in Yuntenville.
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.680
We already reported that.
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:42.399
Um, but he previously pled guilty to a DUI in 2022.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:48.560
So staying strictly on the legal facts here, there's a lot that's kind of being pushed out right now.
00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:53.040
Um, and more so the political side of that.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:54.480
That's that one.
00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:58.160
All right, and now we are going to go into one.
00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:11.199
And since I've been talking this entire time, I'm gonna s say Nick's gonna cover this because I want to see his reaction to this, and I'll actually turn it over for you.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:11.920
Thank you.
00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:13.120
There you go.
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:16.240
Alright, so we're talking about accuracy.
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:24.079
Um, we have Paul Juan Pascal uh or Pascal Juan case, that's what it is.
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:33.839
A Guatemalan national named Martin Pascual Juan, who's lived in Seymour, Indiana since entering the U.S.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.199
as an unaccompanied minor in 2018.
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:48.879
He was pulled over by North North Vernon Police in May after a flock safety camera flagged his vehicle as belonging to someone with suspended license.
00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:59.040
So it's worth stating that there are two outlets reporting this, the Seymour Tribune and the Republic, both call this a mistaken identification by police.
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:07.040
We don't have the underlying probable cause affidavit ourselves, so I'm not able to um fact-check that, okay?
00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:18.399
Um, I attempted to verify with court records um the names that I was pulling, I was unable because there was a lot of mismatches in regard to names.
00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.079
So we're connecting that record to the story loosely.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:27.439
We're mainly basing this kind of off of the initial reporting.
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:46.399
But I wanted to talk about this case because it is a flock camera case, and what's interesting is if you do any of your own research or go to you know, any any web search, you will be able to see a lot of the cases that are flock cases coming up.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.399
So I thought this was very interesting.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:49.680
Um, so the U.S.
00:07:49.839 --> 00:08:04.720
District Judge Matthew Brookman, South Southern District of Indiana, Terre Hot Division, ordered ICE to give him a bond hearing or release him, finding he'd been denied a hearing required under section 1226 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:10.959
The government argued he fell under a stricter no bond hearing provision that usually applies to people detained at the border.
00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:12.319
The judge disagreed.
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.199
He's lived here for years, this isn't a border case.
00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:26.240
So this is at least the seventh time since December a federal judge in this district has ruled the same way in a similar case.
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:32.000
That's a pattern of the courts pushing back on how these detentions are handled.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.279
It's not just one outlier judge.
00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.759
No, it you're seeing a consistent pattern.
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:48.000
So um the legal commentary this week tied the Supreme Court Shautri versus United States ruling, which we covered back in episode two, directly to Flock.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:58.960
The court held that police collecting Google location history through a geofense warrant counted as a Fourth Amendment search because Americans have a reasonable expectation of privacy in records of their movements.
00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:01.759
That reasoning is now in play in Schmidt v.
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.919
City of Norfolk, a case in the Fourth Circuit challenging Flock cameras directly.
00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.799
The district court ruled against the privacy claim back in February before Shawtree came down.
00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.679
So the appellate court now has to weigh in with the Supreme Court's language in hand.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:23.840
Our commentary on this particularly is an opinion like we have our own view on Flock.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:35.919
The thing that's interesting to me is the amount of traction, I guess is the word we use, the amount of traction it is getting across all the platforms.
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:40.879
And and it is not just social media based, it's not just news based.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:52.080
You are seeing this in actual court cases and even and it's just so frustrating to me that people are like, oh, you you can't do that.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.759
You can't watch me drive down the street.
00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.480
The cops sit there and watch you do it when they're sitting in their cruiser.
00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:01.759
How is it any different?
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.159
All it is is it's a tool for the police force.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:11.440
Okay, so I will say, Amy, I'm gonna try to answer this question gently.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:21.360
Okay, so a a business is in a lot of ways for general purposes, a private owned.
00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:24.240
They're not they're not affiliated with the government.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:31.039
They're not, they're not, they don't enforce law, they don't enforce legislation, they're not a part of a city government or anything like that.
00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:38.159
So therefore, they don't fall under the rules that the government does as far as rights violations.
00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.919
So uh a private company cannot violate your rights.
00:10:42.240 --> 00:11:10.720
And in regard to as well, when we take this to Flock, these cameras are not um the majority, well, with this, now there are some cities that have their own camera systems, but the majority of these, which are the license plate readers, those cities are part of the city, which is part of city government, which is subject to is that the flock cameras are contracted through a specific private company.
00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:18.000
And if they're utilized, if they're utilized as a tool by the government, they fall under the statutes of the constitution.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:28.799
No, it's there's there's but well, in regard to the question, in regard to it being like, how is it different than a convenience store or a mall or something like that?
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:30.399
That's kind of the difference.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:45.120
Yeah, um, but again, if we think about the fact that the majority of the citizens in our world right now have a ring camera or blink camera on their door, and you pass by it how many times a day, it's picking that up.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.320
Okay, I'm gonna settle this with Flock and then we can move on.
00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:57.279
Well, we're always gonna have to cover Flock because it's it's I know that it's prevalent, it's relevant, but for to our viewers and all seven of you right now, thank you for being here.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:58.080
Yes.
00:11:58.639 --> 00:11:59.600
Look at it this way.
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.000
This is the simplest way to put it, period.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.639
Just like Amy said, how is it, you know, how is it different than a security camera at a store?
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:07.279
Okay.
00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:08.639
It's not.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:09.840
Honestly.
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.120
It's hard to hear me, yeah, because this mic doesn't work.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:15.919
I I will speak louder.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.159
Why do you keep pulling it away if it doesn't work?
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:20.480
We're using those on TikTok.
00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.720
These and this one's not working.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.480
It hasn't worked forever.
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:27.600
So I don't know.
00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:28.399
Anyways.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:30.720
We want mine, I talk louder.
00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:32.399
You're fine.
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:34.080
Here's the deal.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:34.960
Struggle bus.
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:36.399
No, it's it's not.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:37.759
Here's the deal with flock.
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:38.720
Okay.
00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.200
A kid walks into a convenience store, right?
00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:45.279
Has a gun.
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:53.279
Another guy, an adult, walks into a convenience store, has a gun.
00:12:53.600 --> 00:13:01.360
They don't know each other are there for the same reason, but the kid wants to rob the store, and the guy wants to rob the store.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:02.639
The adult.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:09.600
While the adult winds up shooting so-and-so, the cashier.
00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:10.080
Okay?
00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:11.120
Just follow me.
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.320
I'm trying.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.639
The kid hides.
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:29.919
The adult runs, the cops show up, they find the kid, they find the dead cashier, the kid has a gun, they arrest the kid.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:38.240
Now, there's video evidence that shows the kid didn't shoot the guy, the adult did.
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.120
That is private security.
00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.559
At the time, it's not evidence.
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:56.960
Only up until the police or a government agency seizes that recording does it become evidence and property of a government agency.
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.360
Therefore, it is subject to the rules of the constitution at that point.
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:10.159
And because it is a recording, it has to follow the rules of the constitution.
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:19.279
And the fact that the government now obtained that doesn't matter if it needed a warrant or anything, they have that now.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:44.960
So when you look at it that way, now does the man who actually shot the person, the cashier, who left and fled the scene and was not caught, when he's caught later because of video evidence that exonerates the kid and implicates the adult, when you use that, is that a violation of his rights?
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:56.879
Because you had originally arrested this kid and charged him, but now you're charging me because there's new information that you gained.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:01.840
Well, did you have a reasonable expectation of privacy being in that store?
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:03.519
No, you didn't.
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:11.200
Therefore, with a flock camera, do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy of driving on a public road?
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:12.720
No, you don't.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:20.399
It's a tool that law enforcement uses to help fight crime, to find criminals.
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:27.360
Therefore, if you are not committing a crime, why are you worried about flock cameras?
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:30.080
I'm just saying.
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.559
If that's the case, if that's the case, you wouldn't walk into any store that has a surveillance camera.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:35.120
Yeah, you wouldn't.
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.799
Because the government could come in and seize it.
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:43.440
It's a public they can't there has to be Do you know how easy it is?
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.000
You know how easy it is to write search warrants to get them approved by a judge.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:49.759
Mine now.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:50.639
That's not how it works.
00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.159
There is law behind it.
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.519
There is, yeah, that does protect you, so to speak.
00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:03.600
But in theory, the bottom line here is if you are following the law, yeah, it really shouldn't matter.
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:04.080
Right.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:17.279
And quite honestly, considering, to me, my opinion, my opinion on the whole thing is we live in a world where literally we can watch people, they literally set up a camera to have people watch their dogs on TikTok live all day.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:18.720
You don't have privacy.
00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:19.360
I'm sorry.
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:29.360
If you are inviting the world into your life through, you know, your Instagram, your your TikTok, your Facebook, your all these things.
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.799
Yeah, I mean, what what's I don't get it?
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:42.559
Like what I in my head, I'm like, okay, now if you come to my home and you want to like search my home or something like that, I think that is different.
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:44.080
That's different in my head.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:50.559
But in in the public, like Walmart or any of those stores that you go into, I don't expect it to be private.
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.320
Like I always consider that's public.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:57.600
That's why I try not to go out in the public because it's the public, it's too publicly out there.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.559
I prefer my homework, my space.
00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.279
But in a nutshell, that's f that's flock cameras.
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:08.720
All it is, it's a private agency that's out there putting up cameras out in public.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:24.240
And I will say that I think that it was done in the best of intentions, genuinely, in true our society, anyone can take something that is done with the best of intentions and they turn it in to something completely opposite.
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:32.079
And everybody always wants to look at the negative downside instead of potentially like you know, we talk about missing person cases a lot.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:37.680
And my my opinion in this kind of situation, I think the more cameras that we have, the better.
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:44.160
Because then, you know, it's not just oh, well, so and so said they saw this person here.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.000
No, we can verify that.
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:46.319
Yep.
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:50.240
So that to my thing, I would rather have cameras.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.319
Just like with Lacey Peterson, so-and-so saw her walking her dog.
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.319
Yeah, I mean, like I Maybe if we had flock cameras, they would have verified that.
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:05.680
I'm just saying that is to me, that is a yes, and then there's a whole other aspect down there where people are like, well, AI, you can alter it.
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:14.960
Well, yeah, you can, but then you're committing you're trying to be facetious and there's no winning, no, I feel like, in the majority of situations.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.359
No, not what the space society is.
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:18.880
Yeah.
00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:27.200
So, and we do, we have, we've actually have, so they there was, and I am not gonna quote it, I'm not gonna pull it because I don't have it off top, like, you know, like right here in front of me.
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:33.759
There was some cases, and I think it was I don't know if it was Google, I think it was Ring.
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:42.079
They were having some really because um law enforcement was trying to get and obtain ring footage without going through the person.
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:55.920
They were trying to like go through ring itself, and it has to go through the person that now it is on ring's servers, so to speak, but they still have to because it is my footage, my camera has to go through me.
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.599
That's some of the some of the way.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.160
So I get it.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.559
There's legit reasons and concerns that people have.
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.759
So I understand that the concerns are out there.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.920
I did briefly touch on that.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:14.480
It comes down to, in my personal opinion, integrity, morals, values, honesty, like accountability.
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.759
Those are the things like it doesn't really matter.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.119
It's it's the bad apple principle, right?
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.799
In my head, there's always going to be a bad apple.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:47.599
I am not, you will very rarely ever catch me saying, like, all all law enforcement this or all attorneys that, because I don't think that you can lump a whole classification or group of people together and it be a true um, sorry, my brain, a true, a true classification.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:53.039
Because there's always you, yeah, like you can't worry about I can't.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.359
There it's too much, and it's just like uh there are good cops, there are bad cops.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.039
There are good attorneys, bad attorneys, good doctors, bad doctors.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.119
That's with every profession, right?
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:12.880
So what we tend to do though in our news is we pick up the horrible people and we put them on the news for the world to see.
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.920
So then the world only gets to see the negative.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:23.599
So what you're seeing in a lot of your news reporting in regard to flock cameras is the misuse of them.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:30.319
You are not seeing where I haven't pulled that, I'm sorry, but you're not seeing on the news every night the good.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.799
You're not seeing where it has helped do this or helped do that because that doesn't really, it's the same thing with your algorithm right now.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.519
That's why we're doing what we're doing with the two different recording setups because we're trying to reach people.
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:42.160
Yep.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.839
That's exactly what the news is doing, it just does it in a little bit different way.
00:20:48.079 --> 00:21:00.400
We're just trying to portray what is not known out there, or some some of the things that are we feel are important to be known and say, hey, you know, look at this.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.680
Take another look at this.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:10.480
I don't want people to just think that we're bad mouthing every news, every because it's not.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:16.640
Um I do think there are some that hold themselves to a higher standard of reporting.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:22.319
Um, but I also think that I don't even like that.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.319
Is just one of those things I've always been like that.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.200
I don't take what you tell me, and you're like, okay, great, that's awesome.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.839
I'm gonna go and share that with the world.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:41.680
No, I'm gonna go and look at four different things to verify what you said because I want to know well, is that really true, or is there more to that story?
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:43.920
It's the same, it's a it's a telephone thing.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:45.200
We've we've talked about that.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.400
Matt, you talk about worrying about data centers.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.599
It's funny.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:58.240
Data centers data centers have been going up around the country for about six years.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Started, yeah, it's started.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.599
Started right at around 2020.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:02.640
Imagine that.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.240
When data centers started popping up.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.599
We were all locked in our houses.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:12.799
But nobody said shit about them until the news started having a problem with it.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:17.839
Or people started having a problem with it and wanted to bring it to the news.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.240
Now, oh, it's in the news.
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:22.160
So I have now I'm worried about it.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:23.119
Right.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.599
The uh data centers have been popping up since 2020, since COVID.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.039
The that was the real start of the AI boom.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.839
Um just saying, we'll move on.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.640
But I just wanted to I wanted to mention that because it's very relevant to you know what we're talking about right now.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:40.960
Yeah.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:54.400
Well, and you know, if tonight is the first time that you are catching um the Casewalker Chronicles, the particulars, we are on all platforms, and our replays are on YouTube.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:01.519
And I will say that as I was looking through today, we touched that at the beginning of our stream.
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:12.079
Today I went back through kind of again matching case to whatever, and there was like 20 some cases that we've already talked about because we're live every Monday, Wednesday, Friday on TikTok at 9 p.m.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:18.720
Eastern, and we have covered a lot, and there's there's a lot of casework that's out there.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.720
Um, so I want people to know that if you missed it, I would try to urge you to catch up on the replays.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.519
Um, and again, hit that follow button.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.119
We greatly appreciate it.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:41.839
And in terms of our newest segment, the trial watch, which it won't just be my hope, it won't just be the the Lindsay Clancy case.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:56.960
I'm hoping that once her trial has you know concluded, a new trial would take its place, so that then we'll be able to build kind of like a catalog, and you can compare and contrast cases within different jurisdictions and things like that.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.880
Um, and that the manner of cases, it's it's all a catalog process.
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.200
So we're it's a it's a work in progress.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:06.240
We're glad you're here.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.640
We hope you keep you know coming back.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.000
Um following up with a previous episode, we spoke about Nolan Wells.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:14.720
This one's big.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:15.119
Are you ready?
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:15.839
You sure you're gonna be able to do that?
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:16.640
We're starting it.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:17.599
Let's go, let's do it.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.960
So we're we talked about Nolan Wells down in Mississippi.
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.000
The recap.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:22.559
Right.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:30.640
He's he was an 18-year-old, went missing on the 4th of July after a boat trip to Horn Island in Mississippi.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.319
His body was recovered two days later on July 6th.
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.160
Today we got the first real medical detail since then.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.880
And before we go into it, a couple things.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:49.759
When we uh when we were discussing this case, we did talk about jurisdiction in regard to this case.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.720
Um, if you missed that episode, again, I urge you to go back and watch it.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:04.640
But on that note, before we jump into the the meat and potatoes of this segment, does anyone have any questions that they want to throw out about this?
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:06.400
Why don't we cover it first?
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.240
I I just I kind of want to know what people's intake is so far.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.359
Like, what are they seeing?
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:16.319
What is what has been your your um what are you seeing?
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.240
Because I know what I see on mine.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.000
I want to know what you're seeing in regard to this.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.960
And I'll wait because I know everything's a little delayed.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.920
I just like using the little buttons.
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:33.279
They can't hear it.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.720
Oh, they can't hear it.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.599
Oh man, sorry, there were crickets.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.079
Uh okay.
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.039
Well eventually.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:46.880
I think they will eventually, yes.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:58.240
Especially if they if this ever goes to like a trial thing, yes, they would at that point, and it would it would be in the trial, but no, not just like like what are you seeing?
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.160
Like, what do you see in your feeds?
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:18.559
Because I know what my stuff is showing me, but again, I'm also going to um county uh public court systems, and I am actually looking or I am looking up cases and I am pulling the docket for cases, so I know what my stuff is sending me.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.519
I just want what you know people that aren't doing that.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:23.519
What does your news feed look like?
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:33.920
For a minute.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:34.720
Are you back?
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:35.920
He's back.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:38.319
I'm gonna wait.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.960
Give me some thumbs up, like an actual emoji.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:41.599
I'm old school.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.119
Give me an emoji in the chat if we're ready to get down to this.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:58.640
And I will tell you that I'm gonna tell you where you can go to get specifics after we yeah, yeah, it it's yeah.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:01.039
All right, well, here we go.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:06.160
A second independent autopsy was performed July 10th by Dr.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:15.599
Roger Mitchell of RAM Consulting LLC, board-certified forensic pathologist, former chief medical examiner for Washington, D.C.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.640
from 2014 to 2021.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.680
The exam was paid for by Colin Kaepernick.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:30.000
Mitchell's signed written report is dated July 19th, addressed directly to the Crump law firm, and the findings were made public today.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.160
Do you know who Colin Kaepernick is?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:34.079
Wasn't he some kind of sports person?
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:34.720
Yeah.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.640
Oh rich ass NFL player.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.359
That's irrelevant to the segment.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.759
Oh, we're not going to talk about the NAACP today?
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.160
No.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:46.720
Oh, okay.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.000
My bad.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:50.880
You're just read what I tell you to read.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:57.759
Well, the bottom line stated plainly in the report: cause of death, undetermined, pending investigation.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.440
Manner of death, undetermined, pending investigation.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:08.799
Because the body showed marked decomposition, Mitchell performed additional dissections the first autopsy hadn't done.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:16.400
Face, posterior head, and neck, ribs, pelvis, back, arms, legs, specifically to rule out blunt force injury.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:22.079
Result, no fractures, no deep tissue injuries found anywhere on the body.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:33.680
Now, one exception, dissecting the back of the head, Mitchell found a 12 by 8 inch area of red discoloration in the soft tissue over the occipital bone, the base of the skull.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.240
No skin laceration, no skull fracture.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.039
His own report calls this inconclusive for paramortal injury.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:48.559
Due to both the decomposition and the absence of any associated injury, but significant enough to flag for further investigation.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.480
That's the report's own language.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.359
Inconclusive, not a finding of trauma.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.200
Sent with the body to second.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:20.960
No, no, but you gotta be specific.
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.000
You're gonna let me know.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:23.680
You can't put your opinion in this part.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:27.039
Go ahead.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.000
They weren't with the second examination.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:31.359
Just have a drink.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:32.480
Thank you.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:45.440
Mitchell says retaining those structures after a first autopsy is common practice, just like the organs that were not there with the body or the brain.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:54.240
Because that was all held with the first to do toxicology and the gastroetymology, all of that.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:08.160
Um he doesn't know why the back portion of the occipital bone and things like that weren't examined as well in that report.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.880
But without them, he says the neck exam from the back only is complete.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:14.079
Incomplete.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:20.480
Uh he can't rule out neck injury because he doesn't have the front portion.
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.079
So the examiner with the second autopsy.
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:33.119
So Mitchell also couldn't examine, obviously, the airway, lungs, or stomach contents since those organs had been processed by the first autopsy.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:39.440
The second exam did not include toxicology, and histology samples have been submitted, but results aren't back yet.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:41.119
Both are still pending.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:48.559
One unrelated finding for the record: a remote healed scar on the left ankle, old and not connected to the cause of death.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:53.359
So the report lists seven specific open questions before a real cause of death can be determined.
00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:06.640
How Wells entered the wadi uh water, sorry, his body position when found, whether there was water in the airway, evidence of neck injury, evidence of intracranial hemorrhage, stomach contents, and the toxicology results.
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:15.759
Direct quote from the report this pathologist cannot rule out if any intervening non-accidental factors contributed to or caused the death.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.640
So that is not a founding of foul play.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.960
It's the pathologist saying the evidence in front of him doesn't let him rule it out.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.680
A different, narrower statement, and we want to be precise about that.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.079
So Amy, you're exactly right.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.519
I was thinking the same thing when I read the second autopsy report.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.519
12 by 8 inches on on the back of the neck and head.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:38.880
That is massive.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:53.519
That is the entire side-to-side profile of the head and all the way down from the you know center of the skull to the to your middle back for an 18-year-old, unless this kid is like seven foot tall, which I don't think he is.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:56.799
I thought the same thing in my head.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.440
I didn't say anything, but I'm like, man, that's weird.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.799
12 by 8 inch area.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.920
That's huge.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:05.920
I will say that.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:07.759
So I will finish with this.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:13.279
The official Mississippi State Medical Examiner's autopsy is still not released, still waiting on toxicology.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.079
So we're not asking you to take our word for any of this.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:18.559
The full preliminary report signed by Dr.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.839
Mitchell is posted publicly at bencrump.com.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.279
Go read it for yourself.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.200
And what I'm going to tell you is that I read it and then I read it to Nick, and then Nick and I discussed it.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:39.519
And what I will say is that we had our own questions, and when I posed my possible theories or um summaries in regard.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:48.960
Yeah.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.720
So he literally goes, huh, and turned away and walked away.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.400
No, I said, no.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.200
What'd you say?
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:56.000
That's not what I said.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:56.640
Yeah, I know.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:58.400
He had him and I have a little bit different.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.119
You will see that we have some very different views on some things.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:08.720
Um she's coming around.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.920
I say you're coming around to my my way of thinking.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:18.160
That's where you need your crickets.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:20.720
Alright.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.680
So that is that.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.240
That is as clear as mud.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.000
I will say there was a press conference today that was held by the NAACP.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.079
That is on YouTube as well.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.240
Don't go listen to it.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.920
I would strongly tell you to read.
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:43.519
I see, I agree.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:44.559
I am always right.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:49.359
I would I would tell you to read their report for yourself.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.400
Then you could watch the press conference.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:34:14.400
I what you will notice with me is I am not devoid of emotion, but for me, I like to look at the science and the facts of things rather than get someone's uh I wasn't gonna say bias, but I I everyone has a bias.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.199
I understand that.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:25.519
That's why I choose to operate largely with documents because it's yes, they can be written, but especially when it comes to medical things, it's a little bit harder to put a bias in there.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:26.639
I'm just saying.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:27.599
Do you want mine?
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:28.159
No.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:29.360
Okay.
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:31.840
So hopefully that that helps.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.480
Does anybody have any other questions about that?
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:40.400
That was a huge um, a huge chunk, huge development.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:40.960
Yeah.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.960
Um, so I I felt like we had to cover it.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:54.480
I feel like there's a lot of coverage on it, but I wanted to kind of put it out there that it is available for you to read yourself.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:01.599
So before you start looking and seeing what everybody's saying about it, I would urge you to read it.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:07.039
And it that it that again was, I think it was at bencrump.com because Ben Crump is the attorney for the family.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.880
So that is my that is my take on that.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.559
Any questions?
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:19.679
I love all the likes.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.679
You guys are so great with your hearts.
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:22.639
Thank you for liking.
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:24.639
Almost 14,000 likes.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:25.840
That's awesome.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:32.800
If you are just hopping in, give us a follow so you can stay up to date on all the things going on.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.559
All right, no questions.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:42.000
All right, so we are moving on to Vinton County.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:52.159
So this is gonna be just the quick status check for people that are just hopping in or haven't caught the previous episodes.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.960
This is the Siders family case.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.679
And remember, we discussed in previous episodes, they are all their own cases.
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:07.119
So I, for purposes of I hate to say storytelling, but basically, yes, this is the 16 children case.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:11.119
Um, so two motions we've been watching remain undecided.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:19.039
So Christina Siders' request for a non-dissemination order and Elizabeth Siders' request to modify her$300,000 bond to recognition.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.679
No ruling on either as of tonight.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.679
Here's what did move.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:29.280
All four defendants waived their preliminary hearings back on July 7th.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.239
And that sends the case straight to a Venton County grand jury instead.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:42.800
Prosecutor William William Archer said on July 8th, he hoped to have indictment news in the next couple weeks.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:48.639
Well, that's kind of where we are right now, which means this could break literally any day now.
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.599
I'm reading through my note.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.719
Thank you, Amy.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:29.599
So there's um some things floating around, and I will say, um, in regards to this case, again, right now, the four cases are able to be found on the public records court document page.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.639
So um I have that somewhere.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.320
It's in my other spreadsheet.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:47.360
But that I would there's some things uh specifically like separately, where Elizabeth married Gary at age 15, and there's stuff like that that's floating around.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.800
That really isn't anything to do with this case.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:38:01.840
So there are a lot of outlets out there that are picking up some of those older snippets of things, and it's kind of getting confused in with the current case.
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:08.480
Cases, because they are separate, but that is all of that that I have.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:12.000
So one more open thread in regard to the Ciders family.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.119
Um, Gary Jr.
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:19.599
faces a separate case for counts of public indecency, unrelated victims warrant issued the same day as the search.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:24.000
Several outlets suggested this is the same warrant that brought them to the house.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.199
Authorities haven't officially confirmed that connection.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.480
We're presenting it as outlets connecting dots, not as confirmed fact.
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:34.960
So, yeah, there's a lot going on.
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.360
And they, and again, what I I will briefly, I'll try to touch on this briefly.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.480
What I mean by that is when I go in and I do um like my public record searches, okay.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.360
So, like we have, I'll just use Indiana, that's an easy one.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.440
Um, Indiana My Case.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.679
I'm pretty sure everybody living in this state knows about Indiana My Case, okay?
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:58.159
So you can go in there and you can literally do a simple search by the name.
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:06.480
So you can put somebody's first name and last name in there, and it, if there is a some kind of record for them, it's gonna pull up whatever.
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:14.320
Okay, there are statute of limitations as far as like if we look at driving stuff, that's a little bit different and how stuff is processed there.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:21.119
Um then we look at like underage juveniles, usually never listed unless they are tried as an adult.
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.960
Um, again, there are different laws per each thing.
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:26.880
So I'm just doing broad classifications.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:40.400
Each state's different, yeah, and each state is different, and each like you know, um the the court levels are different, and depending on how the case, like what court it is tried in, they have different things.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:52.239
So there was, and I don't remember which one I talked, I think it was last episode, and I told you guys that when I was just trying to get the case record from the docket, I had to pay$4.75 just to access it.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:40:00.960
I was like, this is and then I have some when I actually go to um some courts, they will charge you per page, and it's usually 10 cents per page.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:19.840
So if you um are accessing a PDF document on that case, which is could be a motion with exhibits or anything like that, easily it could be 500 pages, and so then they're charging you 50 bucks 50 bucks to pull this report, which is stupid because it's digital and they're not copying it.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:25.920
Yeah, it's they're getting the money back for putting the copies into digital format, yeah.
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:32.880
That's and and housing the documents, the great thing about Indiana is it's all free.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.480
Yes, it is all free.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:40.880
However, they they are a little there's a delay in the the processing, it's not bad, it's not too bad, but it is there.
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:43.280
Um it's usually there the next day.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:53.199
Yeah, so just saying, like when I say when I go and look for things, yes, there are some cases where if we look at a an W It all depends on the clerk, too, the county, yeah.
00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:03.840
Because I know with uh the county we live in specifically, the clerk, anything that we've processed with the court usually gets in the very next day.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.880
Anything that gets processed is usually the next day for the house and you've got holidays and you've got all the things don't take our word for it.
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:16.000
That's just our case that we've been dealing with.
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:22.960
Other counties may be different, they may have a bigger workload, and that information doesn't get into the system as quickly.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:35.119
So yeah, and I I do try to like I literally have bookmarks, so I will go in each day and I will go and I will do the search and I will look at the docket and see if anything is posted.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:40.320
If it has posted and the motion is available to download, I will download it, I will read it.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.599
All of those things.
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:43.760
Um let's move on to top G.
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:44.960
We're losing people.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.199
It is what it is.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.679
I said top G and somebody joined.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.960
Look, I cannot with you.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:55.840
I you know what?
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.599
There are people that legitimately want to hear the method to my madness.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.679
Look, more people were joining because I said top G.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.559
This is not why.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.519
If you are joining just for this, I can't with you.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.400
So, anyways, the moment you've all been waiting for, obviously, the Tate brothers.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.599
Andrew Tate.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.320
Ain't nobody got time for that.
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:16.159
All right, you take the whole segment then.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:16.960
I'll take it all.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:24.400
Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate arrested in Miami last weekend on a UK extradition warrant.
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:34.000
So they're trying to get them extradited back to the UK for potential crimes, alleged crimes that they have committed.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:45.679
A senior Trump administrator or admission administration official told Axios directly, so take it for what you will, because we know how all those Trump claims are.
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:51.599
The administration will not intervene to block extradition on the Tate Brothers.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.400
The U.S.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:43:02.800
has an extradition treaty with the UK, and the admin administration intends to honor it in this case as well.
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:13.280
Under the Justice Department's own court filing, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has sole discretion to block extradition if he believes it's politically motivated.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:21.119
A senior State Department official has Rubio or says Rubio hasn't spoken to the Tates or their lawyers.
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.280
See, we got more people joining.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.400
And that the state has no plans to act.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.480
The next hearing is Monday, July 27th.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:33.440
This coming Monday.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.000
Both brothers waived their attendance for it.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.719
So it'll just be their attorneys, obviously.
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:45.360
Um, if you don't know by now, uh the Tate brothers are social media influencers at this point.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:53.119
They're pretty well known in the social media world, other than the fact that this one had no clue who they were.
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:54.559
I don't know who they were.
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:58.719
Which is not surprising because of who they influence.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.760
They are
00:44:00.239 --> 00:46:23.840
marketed towards young impressionable men I was gonna say I'm young and I'm impressionable men I'm not a man uh to help hone their minds into thinking a certain way I know that's not true I know that first of all okay that's absolutely terrible if that is the truth that's exactly what it is do they state that because I feel like that's a bit pretty big claim to state sir on a platform they have a their own university to get kids to pay tuition to learn how to be a T'es terrible people silent I'm that's that's my opinion they're they're absolutely horrible people and they have everything everything coming to them is deserved I'll just say that his opinion his analysis not legal advice also on the numbers UK authorities issued 38 new charges and Axios describes this as bringing the total combined counts to 59 it could be read as saying 59 is their total UK exposure when earlier it explicit 59 is new charges on top of the separate prior UK charges involving three alleged victims we have not independently verified the exact I'm giving thumbs up to Maddie we have not like I'm not going down a rabbit hole for this I'm sorry that even if it is even if it is 38 that is an astronomical amount of like legwork that I'm not saying it's not important but in my opinion Yeah let's just say it involves rape child sex trafficking uh child pornography all kinds of stuff that is pretty terrible Alex is on his way home I now those are all alleged yeah I anyways apples apples oranges whatever we're moving on if you genuinely want more Tate brothers content let me know I can cover it but I feel like I do want to say there is a political dimension to this and I don't like politics.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:47:33.119
I know we try not to cover politics the Tate's attorney is calling this political persecution and there's reporting that parts of the administration were caught off guard by the arrest we're sticking to the legal facts of the charges the claims um of what's been charged and we're staying out of the whole political side of looking at it so but I will say if we do follow up with this the political side of it is gonna come out with their case just saying oh Demi's having a nightmare she's joining the conversation so if you hear her she's having a dream over there all right moving on I'm glad I I'm glad I'm not going to Newport I just funny because you're like I don't want to hear any more about it and then yeah I I I I don't like the politics side of it.
00:47:33.199 --> 00:49:16.320
I really don't like it it it has no place in in like investigations and things like that in my opinion I'm sorry like it it's this is your job do your job whoever is the judge the mayor whatever shouldn't have any effect yeah that's my view that's how I look at it like I don't care who you go to church with I don't it doesn't matter to me like this is what you were supposed to do this is who you are this is the alleged crimes that you committed that's it there's no I I don't think there's that's why I try to keep politics separate and that's why I I just I don't I look at some cases and I try not to cover them because it's and I that sounds even worse but it's like it it's all like we touched on Pelosi right that was it we touched on I gave you the facts of the case the the and then we moved on like the there the whole thing that's in the news feeds is like this much the case and this much politics that surround the case and it's like no sorry well more about politics Newport Kentucky flock cameras laughing because you you wanted to be done with flock and then it's like oh it creeps back in yeah so quick follow-up on Newport Kentucky I was gonna say why did that change but I oh gosh hang on more technical issues no it's not it's just them saying that we're not active so we have to I'm part of their bullcrap to make sure you're not a bot yeah and that's the thing like I really try I don't want things to seem like I have a bias but again every single person has some sort of bias.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:34.880
I genuinely do try to look at things from all different aspects and that's why it became increasingly more obvious for me that I wanted to present something like this where I can say well this is what the actual case is you make your determination.
00:49:35.039 --> 00:51:53.440
Yeah flock cameras Newport Kentucky I said that so since we spent real time on flock cameras on uh tonight already uh multiple outlets confirm the city ended its flock pilot program on July 14th citing public feedback and fourth amendment concerns tied to the Shaw Tree ruling we just discussed but every single report on this as of tonight still describes the removal and future or announcement tents will remove or they are removing we do not have independent confirmation the cameras are physically down and the camera count itself is inconsistent across the sources one outlet says 17 cameras were originally placed another says only six were active at removal and another account says there were 18 again this is the whole point of the podcast and it's like depending on which which news story you see hear or read yeah but the facts have changed but the fact that they shut it down according to their reporting it was their their their community's feedback that they didn't want and I think that the bigger takeaway there is that they the city so to speak chose to limit the amount of possible outcomes in regard to legal battles they just said okay fine that's my take on it I mean because that's what in my opinion when the when the community comes to you and they say hey we don't want this we blah blah blah blah blah and they're willing to like put up a fight for it I that's my thing like I think that the the community it's gonna be unfortunate when it uh don't okay shut just shut your mouth so anyways moving on you can have this case oh Nancy Guthrie the the the other one that I hate gosh you see what she does to me first is your blood pressure raising yet no I got low blood pressure what's already been confirmed Derek Kalella the man who sent the false ransom note in the case has he's pleaded guilty on two federal felony accounts sentencing is set for September 10th before the U.S.
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.920
Dis district judge John C.
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:32.800
Hendraker Hendraker we're just gonna make up names for these people from now on there's five people watching so I they probably wouldn't know the difference if we made up names they'd be like oh yeah that sounds about second something new we love you all FBI director cash patel the party animal that he is told Fox News Digital that the four day delay before the FBI was allowed into their investigation may have cost crucial doorbell camera video.
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:47.760
Hmm the footage that was ultimately recovered came from a cache a cache that was in his words on the verge of deletion with that video file.
00:52:48.719 --> 00:53:15.039
So Sheriff Nanos disputes part of this saying an FBI task force member though not a federal agent was present in the early stages this is a single outlet exclusive as of tonight not yet independently cooperated elsewhere so we're presenting it as reported not as settled fact oh cash patel being a party animal that's my opinion but yeah you go see for yourself.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:24.159
He's in a lot of a lot of news feeds across the country I'm just gonna say that he's he's got a lot going on right now.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:40.480
So that's five real updates in one segment this is exactly why we build the show this way follow along if tonight's the first time you're catching one of these I really strongly doubt that there is a person in the United States that doesn't know about some of this.
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.079
And if they do you may not have access to the internet.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:54:27.440
They're not like us no so now we're moving on hello Kelly quick backstory Marley Kinney 19 of Ashland Kentucky disappeared June 24th while boating with a group of gr with a group at Grayson Lake in Carter County she reportedly left the rented pontoon to use the restroom and never returned after a multi-agency search using divers, sonar helicopters drones and cadaver dogs her body was recovered June 28th we pulled the actual docket ourselves the case is Commonwealth now I will say these are two separate cases before we go into it in in this because I am very specific about this.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:36.159
So the docket that I am able to pull is in regard to Cameron Conley and that is the Commonwealth versus Cameron P.
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:59.599
Conley Carter District Court and I'm not going to give you the case number um Conley the operator of the boat is scheduled for arraignment today July 22nd at 9 a.m I pulled was not able to find a conclusion for that I will say that he was arrested for boating under the influence he was the one supposedly driving the pontoon that Marley and her friends were on.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:14.960
Now I will tell you that also there are some spelling inconsistencies across the national coverage in regard to this case and as of today the national coverage of this case is dwindling and it is very sparse.
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:31.920
Yeah um so given our production cutoff we don't know the outcome of today's arraignment I looked again before it's not on there but what's still unresolved is Marley's cause and manner of death remain pending with the Kentucky State Medical Examiner's office in Frankfurt.
00:55:32.079 --> 00:56:02.079
So no update since her body was recovered June 28th that's now four weeks with no public finding and I will go ahead and push this and tie it all the way back to Nolan Wells this case with very minimal it had a lot of media coverage at the beginning but since then that has filtered off I will say that it has been four weeks and there is no real um update so no real findings or anything like that.
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:34.320
So in Amy's question is it kind of normal the way that the Nolan Wells case is is going through the system I will say that I think the uh we got hats and mustaches I love it I missed it I I think that while one case is getting more attention than the other I think they're honestly moving at the same speed if we look at just what is being put out there.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.559
That's all I'm gonna say about that.
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:47.760
Um this is a real case a real court date and we noted back in episode two that the voting under the influence charge against Conley and Marley's death remain legally separate facts.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:57:03.519
So no charge currently connects them we're not implying one it's just that that is how that came about so in terms of Connie's arrest and things like that it those two are connected in that manner but not anything else.
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:23.679
Two separate cases um but it is a very real case it's a it's got a real real court date and it's gotten a fraction of the attention some other stories this month have that's not a knock on any of the other cases okay um I'm just saying that coverage volume isn't the same as legal substance.
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:47.679
Alright Grayson okay another thing Grayson Lake is small Ashland Kentucky is small it's not gonna get huge coverage unless of course there's a big to-do about it where something is found that is extraordinary and is newsworthy.
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:58.480
That's just how it that's just how it happened my opinion just saying I'm not going to tell you much more other than what I have said tonight.
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:18.800
Yeah that's that's I just for two cases that were very and similar in the nature and and way the way things happen okay you have two groups of friends go out on two different voting days both of them had someone end up dead at the end of the excursion.
00:58:19.039 --> 00:59:42.239
Okay those in my head and maybe I'm thinking about that in the simplest terms but to me that's two very similar cases and if you look at what you see right now the black man's national news and the white girl's not I'll say it I don't care what I think we have tried to do is in in order not to be looked at one way we've over I don't even want to say overcompensated but news has instead of saying okay it's just I'm I'm just I was very upset I'll be honest with you I I got to the end of the press conference today and I was just upset because why I mean I in my head a case is a case a child is a child a uh a murder is a murder what's gonna what's gonna sell the news right now I'm I that's what it's always I know people are not gonna like they're not gonna like what you said and they're not gonna like what I had to say and I understand that and I get that and I'm not trying to make anything about race I'm just saying that these cases pretty much happened right about the same time and what have considering you look online and what have you observed what have you observed one has had no news updates in almost four weeks the other is the entire news feed is covered.
00:59:42.400 --> 01:00:32.960
Yep what sells the news well I'm just saying it's not equal it's not fair and there is no fair I understand that okay dad thank you actually the fair is next week but anyway all I'm saying is until we start treating all cases with the same legal and and um like investigative lens and honestly if we just kept the media out of it the world would be a little bit better that's just my opinion I know everyone's got one and I know everybody has different opinions and at the end of the day in my honest opinion you had two groups of friends two very young people that lost their lives whether it was an accident whether it was murder it doesn't matter they are both gone and they are not coming back.
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:59.440
That cannot be undone so quite honestly what the world thinks about it really doesn't matter it's the investigations that are done and I understand that their view on this is that they're saying that that you know this specific case the investigation was botched or it didn't happen fast enough well I'm here to tell you friends that I still don't have any other information on Marley Kenny.
01:00:59.760 --> 01:03:20.880
No I'm sorry everybody probably is gonna be really upset about that comment and I can't wait for people to come at me in my YouTube comments bring it all I'm sorry I just think that and in terms of I mean do we have any idea like the case log that some some counties have if we're doing toxicology reports or if we're doing like you know all the all this backlog of rape kits that need to be tested the amount of work that needs to be done cannot keep up with the amount of crime that takes place in this country I I just that's I'm sorry I'll get off my soapbox I went down a rabbit hole I'm sorry no we're not sorry it is what it is it's we're trying to just bring the facts to light because we see we investigate these things we look at both sides of these things you know we see cases that we believe you know should be investigated thoroughly they all should and they all should be brought to the limelight yeah I think because because they're all important they're all somebody's child husband mother daughter and they're they're there's they're people there is a lot of cases out there where the investigation was not up to par and that is what I will say about that I am not trying to badmouth anyone because hindsight as Nick likes to say it's 2020 they taught they teach you that in in investigations plain and simple and yes we understand mistakes get made we're all humans we all make mistakes that's why you notice a lot of this automation starting to happen automatic plate readers you know ways of yeah it takes the human out of it taking the human out of it because we we all know that the justice system is flawed be based on the human element plain and simple well yeah because we've already talked about that we have bias and again like point point made with this now again people are probably gonna snip it and and pick different parts out of this live they can go ahead or they can go to YouTube and find the replay and find the actual talk about it.
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:32.400
But what what that's the thing is if we are trying to in theory eliminate the human nature aspect of it and make things more autonomous then we can't be getting rid of the autonomy.
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:42.079
Mm-hmm Newport wants to get rid of well then you know it may take them eight weeks to get results back.
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:47.199
I don't know I don't I'm every every and then another another person could get murdered because of it.
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:52.320
Yeah it it just there's no winning in any situation that's what I want people to understand.
01:03:52.400 --> 01:04:58.239
And yes you need to fix society before we try to fix the oh yeah it's a people we have a people problem bad it's a people problem I I fear because I mean it is it is what it is but anyways we are officially I I this is a whole new setup we've talked about that I'm sorry I'm not gonna keep saying it but if you're just jumping in you're just joining us I strongly suggest that you hit that follow button and you follow along because this is our brand new segment the trial watch and it will continue to evolve throughout this case and hopefully many that sounds bad hopefully many more in the future um it's the justice system we're wanting to last a while we're we're wanting to provide that in-depth look and looking at things from multiple different aspects angles whatever you want to call it um hello Ian Rhodes I hope everyone that is just joining us and just following us for the first time also knows that all of our live streams are on YouTube.
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:51.280
Catch the replay they are not um sequential so to speak you can watch them however we do try to build upon and we do cover different cases roughly each episode we do have our sticker mule uh website where you can purchase our wonderful t shirt has anybody that follows and is a frequent has anybody checked it out yet have you got I haven't hinted at what the t-shirt is yet but I'm waiting for someone in the chat to tell me they've looked at it because I'm I made the shirt for my fellow followers that are my diehard fans I made the shirt for you guys um and we do have the the two new sick stickers as well and Mad Bark I don't know if you're on here you were at one point I do I haven't forgot about you I am gonna send you stickers I just haven't left my house to go to the post office.
01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:59.760
So segment two the trial watch with Lindsay Clancy and just to be completely fair
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.400
Nick knows very, very little.
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:05.599
You didn't see the t-shirt.
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:08.480
I'm gonna have to look.
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:13.039
I can see it on my end, but I I I thought I made it public.
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:18.400
Anyone else if wants to chomp like hop over and see if they can find the shirt?
01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:21.679
Because if not, I'm gonna have to reach out to them.
01:06:22.239 --> 01:06:26.960
That'll be uh Maddie, it's in our um link tree.
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:36.000
And our link tree should be on TikTok, it should be Instagram, all those should be in there.
01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:38.960
Every every platform's a little different, so that's why I do the link tree.
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:41.360
Matt says he's like he can only see the stickers.
01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:49.679
Amy said she can see it now, so I don't know if maybe keep checking and let me know because I I can reach out to them.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:50.880
I don't know why.
01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:52.480
It was that like I said, it was there for me.
01:06:52.559 --> 01:06:54.559
I actually personally ordered one.
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:59.280
Um and I'm supposed to get it, I think June 29th.
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:02.960
So if I get it, it I'll definitely show it.
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:04.960
Yeah, but it is on sticker mule.
01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:09.280
That was a hot mess for me to try to get that store fixed.
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.280
So let me know feedback on that.
01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:14.559
But I did I did design the shirt.
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:16.719
And he says click on July.
01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:17.679
Maybe.
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:19.519
Or maybe did I say June?
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:20.639
I maybe said June.
01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:22.400
I don't know what I don't even know what day it is.
01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:23.599
Like I know it's Wednesday.
01:07:23.679 --> 01:07:25.199
My stuff is revolves around.
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:27.440
I will say podcasts.
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:29.599
We we have felt this a lot.
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.000
When you Maddie sees the shirt, perfect.
01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:44.639
When you quit your job, like your regular day job, nine to five, whatever you want to call it, that's Monday through Friday, and you start working from home and start trying to build your own business, you completely lose track of time.
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.480
Time is just like non-existent.
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:47.679
I don't know what day it is.
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:50.400
We don't know what day it is, we don't know what time it is.
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:52.480
Hey Tiffany Taylor.
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.360
Oh my gosh, this is the first time I've seen her in our in our live.
01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:56.079
That's awesome.
01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:04.239
And yeah, we we are like up until two or three o'clock in the morning, and uh welcome, welcome.
01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:06.960
You are just in time for the main segment.
01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:10.079
Um, again, thank you for the likes, the shares, the follows.
01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:14.719
Again, we the main thing we're really pushing for is the follows, our follow count.
01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:19.760
I it's uh I will say Nick did a live stream fishing the other day.
01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:23.840
He got like 45 followers in that one live stream.
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:32.159
That's what brought about this whole why we're doing the stream different today, because he just used his phone and was just him live.
01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:36.000
Quick disclaimer this live is a little bit different than normal.
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.000
We don't have graphics, we don't have any of that.
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:41.359
We're streaming directly from the TikTok app on the phone.
01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:42.800
Yes, this is a test.
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:45.680
We're using two separate different mics.
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:51.600
We're streaming, we're not streaming, we're recording from another camera that is going to be going to YouTube.
01:08:51.920 --> 01:09:00.479
So you will get the 16 by 9 version, which is like the normal screen version that we usually do over on YouTube if you've missed some of tonight's episode.
01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:03.680
Be sure to go to YouTube and check it out when I get it uploaded.
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:10.319
It takes me some time because I have to edit it and I'll be up till two in the morning, three in the morning, but it doesn't matter because I have insomnia and I don't sleep anyway.
01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:19.760
And on that note, in the chat or in my DM or anywhere that we have a platform where you could leave a comment or anything like that, what would people think?
01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:21.199
Nick hasn't heard this yet.
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:23.920
I thought about this the other night when I couldn't sleep.
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:35.520
Should we put the particulars as its own kind of standalone on like Spotify, Apple so that you get the replay that way as well?
01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:42.000
Yeah, if you listen to podcasts on Spotify, it would be able to come through that way rather than having to go to YouTube or whatever.
01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:43.520
I'm just throwing that out there.
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:44.640
It was a thought I had.
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:49.840
It was like, in if we had that to our post-production, we can push that out to that, maybe.
01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:53.279
And if you're driving in your car, you'd be able to listen to it that way.
01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:56.000
So there is that possibility that we could go that rate.
01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:57.039
I just play YouTube video.
01:09:57.359 --> 01:09:58.239
I know, I'm just saying.
01:09:58.399 --> 01:09:59.920
I I'm just throwing out some ideas.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:01.439
This is what happens when we don't sleep.
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:05.199
Because we clearly like we don't get up in the mornings anymore till like almost.
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:07.199
Well, I get speak for yourself.
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:09.439
I roll out like 10, 11.
01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:10.880
Yeah.
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:15.199
If you're lucky, and I get my day started, and then I'm up to like three.
01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:17.600
Is that a yari that you know?
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.359
Uh yeah, probably.
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:21.039
I don't know very many yaris.
01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:21.920
I only know one.
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:28.079
But, anyways, yeah, no, I was just saying when you quit your job, um time goes out the window.
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:28.479
Yeah.
01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:30.800
So, all right, let's get to segment two.
01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:33.600
We like to talk about tangents, and we're not anymore.
01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:35.199
We're talking about Lindsay Clancy.
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:42.479
So, before any legal analysis, here's the story plainly for anyone joining fresh.
01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:44.479
This one is a hard one, okay?
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:50.399
We're going to stay at the level of legal facts and standards, which is our shoals show's whole approach anyway.
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:57.119
It will not be the blow-by-blow detail because we only do Monday, Wednesday, Friday lives at 9 p.m.
01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:05.279
So it is obviously not going to be the trial watch where there's, you know, the person live streaming the trial as it's minute by minute.
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:06.560
It's not going to be that.
01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:11.760
It's more of okay, when we come on Monday, we can give you a recap of what happened Monday.
01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:14.720
We'll give you the legal breakdown, that sort of thing.
01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:20.159
Um, then on Wednesday, we'll cover uh Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:21.840
So that'll kind of be how that goes.
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:24.000
Hey Tiffany, thank you for the follow.
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:24.560
Thank you.
01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:26.239
You want me to do the first segment?
01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:28.000
Hi, you can do it.
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:28.399
Yes.
01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:28.720
Okay.
01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:31.760
Because I don't know much about yes, he is coming in new.
01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:33.439
I we're gonna say hello to Yari.
01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:34.479
Hello, Yari.
01:11:37.119 --> 01:11:52.079
All right, so on this case, on the evening of January 24th, 2023, in Duxbury, Massachusetts, Lindsay Clancy, a labor and delivery nurse, is accused of killing her three young children.
01:11:52.319 --> 01:11:57.119
Cora five, Dawson, three, and Callen.
01:11:57.439 --> 01:11:58.319
Is it Callan?
01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:07.119
Callan, eight months old, while her husband Patrick was out of the home running an errand, she had asked him to run.
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.720
Cora and Dawson died that day.
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.479
Callan died days later from his injuries.
01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:21.359
Lindsay then cut her wrists and neck and jumped from a second floor window.
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:29.840
She survived, but suffered traumatic spinal cord injuries and is now paralyzed below the sternum.
01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:30.880
Yes.
01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:39.359
So she was arraigned at Tewkesbury State Hospital on October 26th, 2023, and pleaded not guilty on all charges.
01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:47.920
That same day, the court committed her under General Laws Chapter 123, Section 18, for a period not to exceed six months.
01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:52.560
She's been held there since, transported to court in person for each day of this trial.
01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:57.760
Most recently, under a civil recommitment petition filed May 21 of 2025.
01:12:58.079 --> 01:13:13.039
So um that this is a pretrial civil commitment under Code 18, a different statute from the post-verdict 16 commitment referenced later in 2C, which would apply only if she's acquitted by reason of lack of criminal responsibility.
01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:15.760
Keep those two sections distinct, okay?
01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.680
Um, the present custody is not the hypothetical future outcome.
01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:20.159
Right.
01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:24.239
She has never disputed that she caused their deaths.
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:39.680
The entire courtroom fight, the trial happening right now, is about her mental state, not what happened, why, and whether the law holds her criminally responsible for it.
01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:40.720
Yes.
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:46.319
So I know that is gonna bring a lot of confusion right now if you don't know about this.
01:13:46.560 --> 01:13:50.239
Okay, so okay.
01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:52.479
So there's a lot going on.
01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:53.039
A lot.
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:55.520
Amy asked if the last juror got selected.
01:13:55.840 --> 01:13:57.520
Yes, I believe all of them are seated.
01:13:57.600 --> 01:13:59.920
And I think um I think Vladir is done.
01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:03.600
Uh yeah, I think they are fully seated because I think I talked in here.
01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:04.720
I was following it.
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:06.319
Let us we're gonna continue on.
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:07.119
We're gonna keep going.
01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:12.399
If I don't answer that, get get back with me at the end as a post-follow-up question.
01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:14.640
But um, she was indicted.
01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:15.520
Did I say that?
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:16.319
No, that was the other one.
01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:36.960
Okay, so as the charges, as they stand tonight, okay, so she, Lindsay Clancy, was indicted by a Plymouth County grand jury on September 15th, 2023, on three counts of murder under General Laws, Chapter 265, Section 1, one for each child, and three counts of strangulation or suffocation under chapter 265, section 15 DB.
01:14:37.279 --> 01:14:40.800
That is not the full picture of what she's on trial for starting this week.
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:57.119
So on July 8th, 2026, less than two weeks before opening statements, prosecutors formally dropped all three strangulation counts through a filing called, and I'm gonna say this wrong because it's it's legal, but it I think it's a null prosecue.
01:14:57.279 --> 01:14:59.680
Um, or pro prosecue?
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:01.439
I don't know.
01:15:01.520 --> 01:15:02.159
It's like Latin.
01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:02.800
It's Latin.
01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:04.399
I'm sorry, I it is what it is.
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:05.760
Come on, law student.
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:08.560
Well, you can't possibly know all of them.
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:09.760
Sorry, it is what it is.
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:15.119
Lindsay Clancy now stands trial on three counts of first degree murder only, one for each child.
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:24.720
And I will tell you that, and I even looked up, try to pronounce this right, but you need the phonetic.
01:15:25.119 --> 01:15:29.680
I tried to look for that, and it was like, I don't want to tell you if I don't know.
01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:36.239
Um, and I don't, we haven't covered this, like my teachers haven't covered this specific, so I can't hear them say it.
01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.880
So, but anyways, it's not an acquittal.
01:15:39.039 --> 01:15:41.840
Um, the null prosecue is what I'm prosecute.
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:46.319
Why prosecute what how do you say it?
01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:47.359
So you say it.
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:49.279
Read it and tell me what it says.
01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:51.600
I would look up how to say it first.
01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:52.800
Exactly.
01:15:53.039 --> 01:16:04.800
Okay, it's not an acquittal, it's not assigned the case weekend, it's the Commonwealth choosing to proceed on the murder count alone, since the underlying contact conduct is the same act for both charge sets.
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:05.279
Right.
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:08.880
So my section.
01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:09.439
Okay.
01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:10.800
My section.
01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:12.159
All right, go ahead.
01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:14.560
We're gonna have a we're gonna fight later.
01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:16.399
Somebody had, I don't remember who it was with someone else.
01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:17.039
The boxing gloves up.
01:16:17.119 --> 01:16:18.560
I think Amy put the boxing gloves up.
01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:20.399
Hey Julie, thank you for the follow.
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:21.920
We appreciate it so much.
01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:23.520
Thank you for the like.
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:29.119
So, prosecutors they streamline charges or a charge sheet before prial or trial.
01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:33.279
And the reason for that is because they want to have a little more clarity.
01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.079
Uh, trial economy, trials cost a lot of money.
01:16:36.319 --> 01:16:37.760
Um, and especially murder trials.
01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:39.119
Right, and uh high profile.
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:44.079
Understand that prosecutors work for the people, they work for the state.
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:45.600
The state is paying them.
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:48.880
It's money that comes from the people of the state.
01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:51.039
So we try to streamline those things.
01:16:51.199 --> 01:17:02.079
No, I say we, prosecutors try to streamline those things to so that they're in the people's good graces, even though these things take forever and they're drawn out and they cost so much money.
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:07.680
But um, Massachusetts doesn't use the word insanity in the courtroom.
01:17:07.840 --> 01:17:13.199
The actual legal standard comes from a 1967 case, Commonwealth vs.
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:14.079
McCau.
01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:34.720
So under the McAu standard, a defendant is not criminally responsible for a crime if at the time of the offense, as a result of mental disease or defect, she lacked the substantial capacity either to appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct or to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law.
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:50.000
All right, if you don't know anything about this case, we have not covered why at this point there is uh an insanity requirement or a substantial capacity requirement.
01:17:50.239 --> 01:18:04.319
We haven't covered any of that, so just to clarify, there are issues with this case regarding prescription medication, antidepressants, and all of these other things that she was taking.
01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:08.239
You're you're cutting into no no because people have no clue.
01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:09.520
There's like why chat.
01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:14.079
In the chat, really quick, does anyone know or have they heard anything about Lindsay Clancy?
01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:17.279
I'm sure Amy does because she was watching jury selection.
01:18:17.920 --> 01:18:21.760
Yes, but anybody Amy can't answer this one because I know she does.
01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:23.920
Um you've never heard of this one.
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:24.159
Okay.
01:18:24.319 --> 01:18:31.920
Yeah, see, Matt has no idea why is there a mental case for someone who killed their kids and jumped out of a window.
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:34.479
And now she's a paraplegic.
01:18:37.039 --> 01:18:38.800
Anyone else is gonna chime in?
01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:44.000
So that's what I'm saying, is you we have to bring that into context.
01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:46.800
And and we are, we're we're giving the backstory.
01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:50.000
Yeah, so two things most people don't know.
01:18:50.159 --> 01:18:51.439
First, thank you, Matt.
01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:55.920
I we we had that same discussion.
01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:57.520
We this was dinner.
01:18:57.600 --> 01:19:03.520
This was yeah, in case anyone really was confused on what we talk about a lot, this we're not lying.
01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:06.319
Like now, this is two different dinners, two different days.
01:19:06.399 --> 01:19:07.520
We're talking about two different cases.
01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:11.439
The reason we turn this into a podcast is because this is what we do in real life.
01:19:11.680 --> 01:19:35.439
This is yeah, this is this should be an IRL podcast, IRL broadcast, because these are the conversations we have, and we're like which then ends up one of us, usually me, going and pulling the actual Massachusetts code to say and point out to him, hey, XYZ, this is what the standard is, this is what the statute reads, and then we go from that way.
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:40.640
So this is not us being anyway other than who we are, yeah.
01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:45.760
Like I just saying, so what most people don't understand, okay?
01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:47.840
So first it's an either or test.
01:19:47.920 --> 01:19:50.960
The defense just always be liked and post that crap.
01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:57.279
Yeah, the defense only has to show that she lacked capacity on one of the two prongs, not both.
01:19:57.439 --> 01:20:06.239
So, second, and this is the big one, once the defense gives formal notice they're raising it, which Clancy's team did in December of 2024, the burden flips.
01:20:06.319 --> 01:20:14.880
It is not on her to prove she lacked criminal responsibility, it's on the Commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible.
01:20:15.039 --> 01:20:15.520
Right.
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:22.720
So, in the chat, let me know does that much of what we've discussed make sense.
01:20:23.119 --> 01:20:33.600
Yeah, and Matt already said that he can't imagine uh a sane person killing their kids and then trying to kill themselves.
01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:47.359
So behind the scenes conversations, you probably, I mean, it's very similar to what it is here, but it is I'm putting on here as well that if she's acquitted on this defense, she does not go free.
01:20:47.439 --> 01:20:54.319
Okay, she would be committed to a state psychiatric hospital under GLC 12316.
01:20:54.479 --> 01:20:54.640
Right.
01:20:54.800 --> 01:20:57.279
So subject to periodic review under 17.
01:20:57.520 --> 01:21:06.079
State that you know, not guilty by reason of lack, not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility is not an escape hatch.
01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:11.039
Okay, so it does not mean and but it's not a conviction of murder.
01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:18.720
And I will say, I will say, because I brought this up to Nick, and I'm I'm gonna try to pull it up and possibly see.
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:21.119
We have one more episode this week, so maybe Friday.
01:21:21.279 --> 01:21:36.479
Um, in regard to when it's mothers killing children, the statistics on that, the ratios on on like convictions and things like that is very interesting.
01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:44.159
And I don't want to throw things out that I can't like give you a citation for right off my head, but what you've read into already.
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:51.920
Yeah, it is it's usually again, this is not legal advice, this is not forensic science.
01:21:52.000 --> 01:22:07.359
I do not have a citation for this, but from my learnings of psychology, child development, and all of those things, criminal justice, all of those things, the topics that we've discussed in regard to this, most of the time it is some form of insanity plea.
01:22:07.520 --> 01:22:12.399
And most of them don't go to prison, they go to like a psychiatric hospital, right?
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:16.239
But I will say from and I'm covering the this next part here.
01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:17.439
Oh, the preliminary?
01:22:17.520 --> 01:22:18.720
Uh primary.
01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:27.840
No, underneath the guardrail, underneath the primary because it it goes right along from an investigator standpoint.
01:22:28.079 --> 01:22:48.000
We when I was an investigator, when we would try to uh uh make sure our charges fit the statute of a case for this, particularly because their defense is uh on the side of insanity or uh not determined to have the wherewithal to commit that crime.
01:22:48.319 --> 01:22:50.079
Well, there's that wherewithal word again.
01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:53.039
Because that's what it falls under.
01:22:53.199 --> 01:22:53.680
Yeah, I know.
01:22:54.640 --> 01:23:09.279
What prosecutors want the investigators to do is try to build that premeditation because especially with murder, uh murder, uh capital murder requires premeditation for the statute, typically under state and federal law.
01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:11.119
So that's a new one.
01:23:11.199 --> 01:23:17.520
I was gonna say, does anybody you could discuss um because murder is you're kind of touching on it.
01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:23.359
Yeah, that's she's being charged with three separate counts, along with the strangulation and all that.
01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:26.159
But murder specifically But they dropped the strangulation.
01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:28.079
Obviously, because murder is.
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:59.840
And it and it seems obvious that this would be the case, but a lot of people overlook the fact that yes, prosecutors and uh investigators are trying to find that premeditation within this case because the defense is so heavily on the insanity plea that she didn't have the mental capacity to do what she did.
01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:04.000
But they look for the premeditation.
01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:16.239
Is in order for it to be murdered, you have to have two what you have to have the modus operandi.
01:24:17.039 --> 01:24:18.319
No, you don't have to have a motive.
01:24:18.399 --> 01:24:19.359
You don't have to have a motive.
01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:22.560
People try to find a motive, there's usually not a motive for murder.
01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:25.119
No, you have to have the act and you have to have the intent.
01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:25.840
You have to have both.
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:26.960
Oh, the intent, yeah.
01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:28.000
You have to have both.
01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:28.239
Yeah.
01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:30.960
So where you get the premeditation, that is your intent.
01:24:31.119 --> 01:24:32.880
Yes, yes, yes.
01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:36.960
So premeditated is what they're trying to prove.
01:24:37.199 --> 01:24:48.319
And where they're really, in my opinion, where they're really gonna struggle with this case is the fact that she sought repeatedly mental, uh psychiatric doctors.
01:24:48.560 --> 01:24:50.960
Multiple multiple different doctors.
01:24:51.119 --> 01:25:00.560
So she's got a I would say, in my my opinion, an extensive um history where she has with mental health, yes.
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:03.279
So um what?
01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:04.560
Oh, you need another mince?
01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:06.720
Do you not have words?
01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:08.399
It's like being in kindergarten.
01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:12.880
You were talking, use your words, all right.
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:20.960
So the the actual legal test pulled from the real 1967 opinion, not a paraphrase off the internet.
01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:25.760
This is the exact kind of thing we dig up for our episodes, okay?
01:25:26.079 --> 01:25:32.880
So when we are discussing the insanity plea, a lot of people get that wrong.
01:25:33.039 --> 01:25:36.880
Um, and I'm not trying to, again, you know, throw shade, okay?
01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:42.399
What I'm saying is we told you where that came from and what they are doing.
01:25:42.560 --> 01:25:44.960
And again, each state is different.
01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:48.960
So their laws are all written differently.
01:25:49.199 --> 01:25:56.800
Yeah, and had this case not um originated in Massachusetts, it might not be going down the way it is.
01:25:56.880 --> 01:26:13.119
And that's why I'm really excited about this specific um trial watch segment being put in, is I think that's gonna be one of those things like if we pick a different state, a different trial for each, you know, we will cover this one until it's done and then we will pick up with another trial.
01:26:13.359 --> 01:26:28.880
But in theory, you will be able to learn and see what I mean when I say that each state, so say then if you would have put Lindsay Clancy in this other state, it could be a totally different outcome process.
01:26:29.119 --> 01:26:32.800
So that's kind of what I'm trying to get across to um with that.
01:26:32.960 --> 01:26:34.159
Hopefully that makes sense.
01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:42.079
And I, you know, didn't confuse everybody, but this is one of the most contested pretrial motion battles that we've covered.
01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:51.840
Every ruling is pulled directly from the court's own docket, and again, that was the way they do their court dockets are different than Indiana, so that was a learning curve for me.
01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:54.319
I had to learn their docket system.
01:26:54.720 --> 01:27:03.359
Um, and I'm I'm not sure if it's covered tonight or if I put it in Friday's episode, but we're gonna continue to see.
01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:16.399
So the the defense actually asked the court to split the trial into two phases: one to decide if she committed the acts, and a second to decide if she was criminally responsible for those acts.
01:27:16.640 --> 01:27:18.239
So we have touched on that before.
01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:25.359
So, in in court, you're not just proving that a murder occurred or this crime occurred.
01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:33.039
Legally, you are you are connecting this specific person to this specific act that created this result.
01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:35.680
Yeah, that's the trail that you are proving.
01:27:35.760 --> 01:27:41.279
It's not just stating, well, I know it was Colonel Mustard that that did this.
01:27:41.439 --> 01:27:47.279
No, you have to say Colonel Mustard used the revolver in the library.
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:49.600
That is how that works in court.
01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:57.600
So however, this with this case, there are two separate, two separate things going on.
01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:04.000
There is one to say This person to prove this person did what they did.
01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:14.239
There's another, however, that's separate of that, saying that they did or did not have the mental capacity to do it.
01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:17.439
And I I am going to discuss on this really briefly.
01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:24.880
I'm gonna try to just kind of read these off because I think they're important and I think some of it gets skimmed across too quickly.
01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:30.079
Um, so there was a change of venue, okay, from Plymouth to elsewhere.
01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:31.119
That was denied.
01:28:32.079 --> 01:28:33.199
A motion for a change of venue.
01:28:33.439 --> 01:28:33.680
Yes.
01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:35.199
Um, yes, sorry.
01:28:35.359 --> 01:28:38.079
Um, November 18th of 2025, okay.
01:28:38.319 --> 01:28:45.680
Um, early access to the jury was so basically early access to the list was allowed.
01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:50.560
So April 23rd, the defense's woefully inadequate process argument succeeded.
01:28:50.720 --> 01:29:00.239
And then also the witness sequestration order was allowed on June 18th of 2026, with an exception carved out for Clancy's mother, father, and sister.
01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:09.760
So then jury sequestration, a separate question in regard to that, was denied July 13th of 2026.
01:29:09.840 --> 01:29:23.840
So a defense motion in Lemini, filed and denied the same day on 713, 2026, lines up with press reporting that the defense sought to call lay witnesses about their own postpartum experien experiences, it was denied.
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:27.199
The docket entry itself doesn't name the subject matter.
01:29:27.520 --> 01:29:29.600
So that's why we're calling it lay witness.
01:29:29.840 --> 01:29:37.600
Um, but the press sourced it's not docket confirmed, but as of right now, I haven't been able to actually pull that.
01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:38.399
I can just see.
01:29:38.560 --> 01:29:42.640
So what what I read to you basically is kind of the breakdown of what a docket looks like.
01:29:42.720 --> 01:29:52.880
I don't know if any in the chat anybody ever looked at a docket on um like one of the states uh like court websites.
01:29:53.039 --> 01:29:58.079
Has anybody I know when I talk about it, Nick knows because I'm always in the docket.
01:29:58.560 --> 01:30:07.600
I look at the docket, so he knows, but when I talk about the docket, like it the way most of it is that we'll give you like the a breakdown, not even a breakdown.
01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:12.159
It's like it gives you like a code said motion motion filed, whatever, and the date.
01:30:12.239 --> 01:30:18.880
And then some states, if you actually can click, it'll say image or it'll say exhibit, whatever.
01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:23.760
You can click on it and it'll give you the actual mine automatically downloads it.
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.800
So you can, but not all states do.
01:30:26.880 --> 01:30:36.479
And and again, when we move further into trial, sometimes a lot of that stuff kind of limits because they start, you know, sealing things and they're like, no, you can have it after the trial.
01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:42.239
So say all that to say there was a lot of movement on this case.
01:30:42.479 --> 01:30:44.880
It's not just an open and shut.
01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:46.159
This is what the case was.
01:30:46.319 --> 01:30:47.279
I'm gonna read it to you.
01:30:47.359 --> 01:30:49.840
I want you to understand there was quite a bit.
01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:51.359
Well, it started two years ago.
01:30:51.520 --> 01:30:56.640
Yeah, quite a bit of stuff that's gone on, and I did pull quite a bit of it.
01:30:56.800 --> 01:31:07.359
Um, so the the Commonwealth's motion to exclude several late disclosed defense expert witness, um, it was opposed, shows no formal ruling entry in the docket.
01:31:07.520 --> 01:31:13.439
Um, but it's now press confirmed by two independent outlets, Court TV and NBC 10 Boston.
01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:19.600
The latter describing the fence as denied its bid to add undisclosed medical experts.
01:31:21.119 --> 01:31:26.239
Um, also same open status for the jury instruction.
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:30.319
So the docket shows it's under advisement, no ruling yet.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:34.800
Um, so this is where we did.
01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:40.720
Who didn't?
01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:53.760
This is very similar in that there was a late defense expert witness disclosure fight right before the trial.
01:31:54.079 --> 01:31:58.399
Um, we've seen this, uh I hate to say this.
01:31:58.479 --> 01:32:02.960
We've seen this before in other high-profile Massachusetts cases.
01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:27.119
So what I will say that we have learned, and I have learned through uh we've talked about attorneys have strategy, and there also are kind of general practices that attorneys have, and it's kind of a standard in unwritten procedure kind of thing.
01:32:29.840 --> 01:32:35.039
Imagine a court and a trial being a baseball game.
01:32:35.840 --> 01:32:45.439
You're gonna put certain players in at certain times, you're also going to run certain plays depending on who's on base.
01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:47.279
I don't know.
01:32:47.439 --> 01:32:48.319
Every dollar.
01:32:49.359 --> 01:32:50.319
Exactly.
01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:53.520
What's on second?
01:32:54.079 --> 01:32:55.840
I don't know! Third base.
01:32:56.800 --> 01:32:59.600
So sorry.
01:32:59.760 --> 01:33:00.239
That's all right.
01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:02.720
That's Abbott and Costello, for all you that didn't know.
01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:03.600
You need to watch that.
01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:04.079
Yeah.
01:33:04.319 --> 01:33:07.039
No, we're gonna go over the evidentiary rulings for trial.
01:33:07.119 --> 01:33:08.399
Uh yeah, see?
01:33:09.279 --> 01:33:09.760
Exactly.
01:33:09.920 --> 01:33:10.800
Who's on third?
01:33:11.039 --> 01:33:12.960
The rule 403 teaching.
01:33:13.039 --> 01:33:15.520
This is a teaching moment for rule 403.
01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:19.359
We're talking about the evidence that's allowed in court.
01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:21.279
So, like I was talking about the baseball game.
01:33:21.520 --> 01:33:22.479
You can cover this whole section.
01:33:22.640 --> 01:33:22.880
Okay.
01:33:23.199 --> 01:33:24.079
You can do 2D one.
01:33:24.479 --> 01:33:25.279
It's easy.
01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:32.319
Um relate it to a baseball game where you're gonna run different plays, or a basketball game for that matter.
01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:36.560
You're gonna run different plays with who's out there, who's on the playing field.
01:33:36.800 --> 01:33:39.680
And that being said, a courtroom is no different.
01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:41.199
Absolutely no different.
01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:54.000
You're going to try to get stuff suppressed and allowed based on who your opponent is going to bring forward or try to that leg try to suppress.
01:33:54.319 --> 01:33:55.439
Gotta resuate.
01:33:55.760 --> 01:34:04.479
So, with this, um, photographs of the three children while alive is being allowed for the trial.
01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:07.520
The autopsy and crime scene photographs is being allowed.
01:34:07.680 --> 01:34:10.960
Now, these are all motions that had to be presented to the court.
01:34:11.279 --> 01:34:20.720
Or not necessarily motion to it's typically when like uh one side is c is is saying yes, all evidence, and the other one is saying no.
01:34:21.119 --> 01:34:21.279
Right.
01:34:21.359 --> 01:34:23.199
The defense is gonna always say no.
01:34:23.439 --> 01:34:25.119
We don't want to want that in.
01:34:25.439 --> 01:34:38.800
They want to suppress under prejudice, uh, is typically how it works because that evidence is too prejudicial to a jury, which honestly in the court uh it makes sense, but to a lay person it doesn't.
01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:41.600
Why wouldn't all the evidence be presented anyway?
01:34:41.840 --> 01:34:44.640
Because it's evidence or it's information.
01:34:45.439 --> 01:34:54.880
That's just how the court systems work, and that's the way they've done it for years and years and years, and you have to fight to get information in or get information suppressed.
01:34:55.600 --> 01:35:03.119
So, uh, because information may be fabricated, it may cover this one, it may be actual production.
01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:03.680
No.
01:35:03.840 --> 01:35:23.039
Uh a 3D model of the family's home, the Ducksbury home, to use for trials been allowed, subject to foundation, just the foundation of the the the case itself, not particularly who moved where and did what.
01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:25.199
It's just the 3D model.
01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:30.479
And also, when we say foundation, it is meaning like 2D information.
01:35:30.560 --> 01:35:34.159
So it's not gonna be like a it's not gonna have the dead bodies and where they're we're at or anything like that.
01:35:34.239 --> 01:35:34.960
It's just a 3D model.
01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:37.600
That would be that would fall under your crime scene photos.
01:35:37.680 --> 01:35:44.800
But what I mean is it's not like the Zillow 3D walkthrough where it's like, this is our living room, and this is it's got a three-bedroom, three-bath.
01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:55.039
It that's not really also Patrick Clancy's 911 call allowed to be played to the jury with limiting instruction from the judge.
01:35:55.359 --> 01:36:13.760
So all that being said, is it's a playbook, it's it's what the prosecution they want to allow all the evidence, obviously, that's gonna be beneficial to them, and the defense wants to suppress all the end uh evidence that is gonna hurt them.
01:36:13.920 --> 01:36:16.079
That's the that is just the way it works.
01:36:16.239 --> 01:36:35.439
Um, also, the defense has the ability to want to have evidence presented, you know, during the discovery process, and the prosecution obviously has the opportunity to request that it is suppressed, and a judge is there to make that determination.
01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:43.520
So ultimately, the judge has the decision on whether or not evidence is brought forward to the jury in the trial.
01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:50.640
But that's that's the 403 explanation, and now we're going to move on to what Amy had talked about.
01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:53.199
The house isn't even going to look the same.
01:36:53.439 --> 01:36:54.079
Yeah.
01:36:55.119 --> 01:36:57.199
Yeah, they're not there's a lot.
01:36:57.359 --> 01:37:03.680
In this case, like I I'll be honest, like this case to me is uh okay.
01:37:04.079 --> 01:37:10.479
Let's go ahead and we're gonna move on to what I think we've briefly discussed this and other we've talked about in other episodes.
01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:16.079
So voidir, which is basically what jury selection, okay?
01:37:16.239 --> 01:37:18.560
And we're gonna discuss why it looks different here.
01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:28.239
So voidir, which is French for to speak the truth, just means questioning prospective jurors before they're seated, routine in pretty much all cases.
01:37:28.479 --> 01:37:30.319
Trial, trial cases, yeah.
01:37:30.560 --> 01:37:39.439
Um, so individual versus panel voidir, why attorneys are probing jurors' personal views on mental illness specifically here?
01:37:39.680 --> 01:37:40.880
That's not general.
01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:41.359
Okay.
01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:54.560
So the defense submitted a proposed 48 question juror questionnaire in April of 2026, including, quote, would you be able to return a verdict of not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility?
01:37:54.800 --> 01:38:08.880
End quote, defense attorney Kevin Reddington separately raised concerns that questions probing jurors' personal mental health history could be misused to strike jurors unfairly, given the stigma attached to those conditions.
01:38:09.279 --> 01:38:11.840
So that was the defense's proposed questionnaire.
01:38:11.920 --> 01:38:15.680
It's not confirmed as the final version that was actually put to the jurors.
01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:16.159
Okay.
01:38:16.479 --> 01:38:24.479
Um the court is seating a panel of 18, 12 jurors and six alternates, citing the case's exceptional emotional weight.
01:38:24.640 --> 01:38:29.279
So jury selection began Monday, July 20th, with five jurors seated that first day.
01:38:29.439 --> 01:38:41.920
On Tuesday, July 21st, Wire reports that the count at nine by the lunch break, courtroom tracking coverage that continued through the full afternoon session, put the end of day total at 12.
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:46.479
Six women and six men, which quite honestly, I was like, wow, okay.
01:38:46.640 --> 01:38:49.920
Um, with six more, including alternates still needed.
01:38:50.159 --> 01:38:56.000
So, same day update today, jury selection continued um in front of Judge William F.
01:38:56.079 --> 01:38:56.720
Sullivan.
01:38:56.800 --> 01:39:04.640
Courtroom tracking coverage had roughly 17 of the 18 seats filled by the early afternoon recess, but I guess so.
01:39:04.800 --> 01:39:06.239
The court did not finish.
01:39:06.319 --> 01:39:09.279
Um, selection continues tomorrow, Thursday at 11 a.m.
01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:11.520
Amy, that answers your question.
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:13.680
And I'm trying to read what I have in here.
01:39:13.920 --> 01:39:14.239
K.O.
01:39:14.399 --> 01:39:15.760
Yes, this is about Clancy.
01:39:16.079 --> 01:39:16.720
Yes.
01:39:17.279 --> 01:39:29.520
Uh if you just joined us, we're discussing um the trial procedure and we'll continue be the trial watch and be continued to discuss the uh Clancy case.
01:39:29.680 --> 01:39:49.600
I am gonna say here that there is a source discrepancy worth, um, which I did check, but the Docket's own event grid lists, I think it's Gildia, Gildia uh honorable mark for the 720-721 trial sessions, but the Dockets narrative text for both days explicitly reads before Sullivan J.
01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:54.079
So we actually yeah, I was really surprised too.
01:39:54.239 --> 01:39:57.439
Um, especially giving some of the cases.
01:39:57.520 --> 01:40:10.800
I mean, if we think back to if we think Karen Reed or if we think some of our other high-profile cases that we've watched, jury selection is a very it can be because I'm surprised that they didn't have more back and forth and we didn't throw jurors out.
01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:15.520
I mean, again, we I think we saw very a quick jury selection.
01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:23.279
So um uh I'm reading this.
01:40:23.439 --> 01:40:27.920
Oh, so uh one live detail worth noting.
01:40:28.319 --> 01:40:39.520
Um reporting from inside jury selection shows the court actually questioning prospective jurors individually at sidebar, which is functionally the individual voidier the Commonwealth asked for back in June.
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:46.239
There's no endorsement entry in the docket confirming that request was formally allowed, but it appears to be happening in practice.
01:40:46.560 --> 01:40:51.680
So this jury is being seated as we're live and genuinely happening in real time.
01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:58.319
If you want to catch every update as it lands, follow on TikTok, subscribe on YouTube where the full replay goes up after air.
01:40:58.399 --> 01:41:25.600
And again, I want to say as we're covering this, that we are not court TV, we are not um attorneys, we are not um, I don't even know what else we are not, but we are your normal people that have some area now, and again, we'll touch on this briefly because, for example, we talked about briefly lay witnesses, and we've talked in previous episodes about expert witnesses.
01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:36.399
I don't think, sorry, I just am kind of one of those humbly type people, I don't think either of us would qualify as expert witnesses, but I think we are above a lay witness.
01:41:36.560 --> 01:41:42.800
So the lay witness is like your normal, uh, your common everyday Hey now, come down easy.
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:46.720
I would I would be an expert witness in like firearms technology.
01:41:46.960 --> 01:41:48.399
Okay, well, yeah, okay, then fine.
01:41:48.479 --> 01:41:52.239
Then I would, if you were talking private investigations, then I could be an expert witness.
01:41:52.399 --> 01:41:52.640
Exactly.
01:41:52.880 --> 01:42:04.319
I'm just saying we use a little bit of more of our knowledge in that we have had experience or extra trainings or knowledge, learning, education.
01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:09.680
I mean, you have a criminal justice degree with a uh concentration of forensic psychology.
01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:12.479
That's more than what a lot of other people could say when it comes to that.
01:42:12.560 --> 01:42:14.159
So take that with a grain of salt.
01:42:14.319 --> 01:42:18.960
I don't want, I don't need like 500 people being like they're claiming to be this or they're claiming to be that.
01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:30.720
No, we do quite a bit of research, but if we have some areas that we struggle to understand, I know the majority of people of what they see on TV just because people will come to us and ask us.
01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:32.880
Hang on, Amy, what switch with the mics?
01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:34.159
Can you hear me now?
01:42:35.039 --> 01:42:35.680
Better?
01:42:35.920 --> 01:42:36.560
Worse?
01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:37.520
I don't know.
01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:38.479
Can you hear me now?
01:42:38.640 --> 01:42:43.279
Sorry, this is the first time we're doing this, so we're trying to get everything squared away.
01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:46.000
This is super low budget production, guys.
01:42:46.479 --> 01:42:48.319
We're normal people.
01:42:48.479 --> 01:42:51.279
I know, we're just can you still hear us though?
01:42:51.439 --> 01:42:52.720
Like everything's still working.
01:42:53.119 --> 01:42:54.159
Give us some likes.
01:42:55.279 --> 01:42:56.800
Hearts, anything.
01:42:58.479 --> 01:43:00.079
Can you are we still there?
01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:01.199
I don't know.
01:43:01.760 --> 01:43:02.399
Okay, good.
01:43:02.560 --> 01:43:03.920
Well, if you can hear, that's great.
01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:07.279
I mean, and you can see us, and we're not like okay.
01:43:07.359 --> 01:43:08.000
We got some likes there.
01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:08.159
Yeah.
01:43:08.560 --> 01:43:10.319
29,000, we're almost to 30,000.
01:43:10.479 --> 01:43:11.199
That's crazy.
01:43:14.560 --> 01:43:15.439
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:16.239
We appreciate it.
01:43:16.319 --> 01:43:20.960
And again, give us some follow, share, because I feel like this is genuine.
01:43:21.039 --> 01:43:23.359
Like, we try to be as down to earth as we can.
01:43:23.760 --> 01:43:27.119
And try to we we want you to ask us questions.
01:43:27.359 --> 01:43:40.079
We want you to understand because genuine life, I feel like, in all honesty, when people watch trials and cases in real time, they need to understand that it could be any one of them or their loved ones.
01:43:40.159 --> 01:43:47.439
Yeah, and they should have a general understanding of our our court systems, our criminal justice systems.
01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:50.479
I think it's a civic responsibility, a civil duty.
01:43:50.720 --> 01:43:52.399
So that's kind of where we are.
01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:57.680
And hopefully that will end help uh lessen the confusion.
01:43:58.319 --> 01:43:58.640
Yep.
01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:05.279
All right, so with this case, with this trial, strip away procedure, and this is the real fight.
01:44:05.520 --> 01:44:22.880
The Commonwealth's theor theory is that Clancy researched over multiple days how to do this and timed her husband's errands precisely, a premeditation that cuts hard against a psychotic break claim.
01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:41.680
The defense theory is that she spent months trying to get help, hospitalizations, medications, crisis calls, and it was a grip of a rare severe condition that was never properly treated.
01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:44.319
That's essentially the sides that we're seeing here.
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:58.640
You can go ahead and cover the next the medication and treatment uh timeline courses from a civil wrongful death complaint filed by Patrick Clam Clancy against her providers.
01:44:59.439 --> 01:45:01.920
His legal terms characterization.
01:45:04.479 --> 01:45:05.920
That's the second word.
01:45:07.039 --> 01:45:08.319
I can't I can't read.
01:45:08.479 --> 01:45:08.800
I know.
01:45:08.880 --> 01:45:09.840
Do I need to bring it closer?
01:45:10.239 --> 01:45:11.439
Yeah, it's it's so far away.
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:13.119
I you're making fun of me now.
01:45:13.199 --> 01:45:14.720
I really can't read far away.
01:45:14.800 --> 01:45:15.840
You're mean.
01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:20.479
So his legal teams characterization.
01:45:20.720 --> 01:45:26.079
They filed a case, all four defendants have where is that?
01:45:26.319 --> 01:45:26.560
Okay.
01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:34.800
So there's four defendants bec the defendants of that civil case are the medical providers and all of that.
01:45:34.960 --> 01:45:47.600
Because he filed a suit against the medical providers claiming that there was a wrongful death of his children because they they didn't fix her.
01:45:47.840 --> 01:45:48.079
Right.
01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:51.680
And I will say, because again, I uh this is a little unfair.
01:45:51.760 --> 01:45:58.880
Now, warning, I did give him warning that we were talking, and this wasn't going to be an ongoing segment, so take that as you will.
01:45:59.199 --> 01:46:04.720
But I will say that in in terms of this case, Lindsay has two.
01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:07.920
She has her criminal case, and she also has her own civil case.
01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:10.479
Oh, we're not talking about that yet.
01:46:10.640 --> 01:46:11.439
We're getting ready to do that.
01:46:11.760 --> 01:46:12.640
You're confusing people.
01:46:12.800 --> 01:46:16.640
No, I'm just I clearly said filed by Patrick Clancy.
01:46:17.199 --> 01:46:21.520
Patrick has a civil, Lindsay has a civil, and then she also has her criminal case.
01:46:21.760 --> 01:46:22.640
You're skipping ahead.
01:46:22.800 --> 01:46:25.039
I'm not skipping ahead, I'm just trying to clarify.
01:46:25.119 --> 01:46:38.800
So, anyways, they have gone after those medical professions or establishments that provided care leading up to the events that took place that warranted the criminal investigation.
01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:44.239
But that no courts ruled on whether these allegations everything is very much still moving through the system.
01:46:44.399 --> 01:46:49.119
So yeah, those civil claims are still out there, they have not been ruled on.
01:46:49.359 --> 01:46:49.680
Correct.
01:46:49.840 --> 01:46:54.720
So, according to that civil complaint, and this is Patrick's, I believe, is where we were discussing right now.
01:46:54.880 --> 01:47:07.199
Clancy told her provider she was what hearing what she described as a compelling, unrecognizable male voice telling her, in her words, this is your last chance, and that she had to take her children with her.
01:47:07.359 --> 01:47:15.039
Courtroom reporting this week describes her account in similar terms: a voice telling her, This is your last chance, kill the children so you can kill yourself.
01:47:15.199 --> 01:47:19.920
So this is Clancy's own reported account of her mental state, not a neutral fact.
01:47:20.159 --> 01:47:24.880
Frame, okay, this is like a he said she said according to her account.
01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:33.039
Okay, so and again, and Amy's saying she feels it would be hard to rule on those until hers is over.
01:47:34.000 --> 01:47:55.520
I I'm telling you, when I I and again, like I said, I I Massachusetts system was a little bit different because, like in their system, so they each have there's three different case numbers, and so when you go in and you pull the case number, so for instance, like when you're looking at Patrick's, it's all of the people that are a party to it, so that's the line.
01:47:55.600 --> 01:48:01.840
Like it's one, they all have the same case number, but they all get like a drop down, and it's like all right.
01:48:01.920 --> 01:48:05.600
This is this is my opinion, and I'm gonna throw this in there real quick.
01:48:06.720 --> 01:48:12.800
There's a reason for the, and we're getting ready to talk about Lindsay's civil suit because she has a silver suit of her own.
01:48:13.039 --> 01:48:13.840
A silver suit?
01:48:14.000 --> 01:49:23.520
Yes, silver of her own on this, and the reason being is and that was brought on by her defense attorneys, obviously, because think about it this way if you can prove civilly, or you can have it found by a court civilly, even though you're already being tried for murder, that you were wrongfully treated under a certain medical condition during uh for with medical providers and all that, if you can prove that in a court, that helps you in a criminal court, it's more evidence to a criminal court and can be brought forward saying, hey, it was already found that there was negligence or whatever it may have been, whatever they try to prove in the civil case, even though it's a whole nother case, it has to pertain to her her her mindset at the time, which is a premeditation factor when it comes to murder.
01:49:23.680 --> 01:49:28.560
Now, are are we saying that manslaughter's off the table or secondary murder, all that stuff?
01:49:28.640 --> 01:49:35.199
No, but murder, it could potentially bring that back to we have to have intent, and there has to be the act.
01:49:36.000 --> 01:49:37.359
So think about it that way.
01:49:37.520 --> 01:49:44.319
You know, it it is a tactic, it is a play that the defense is playing.
01:49:44.479 --> 01:49:47.039
It's uh in this game.
01:49:47.359 --> 01:49:49.279
His Nick's opinion.
01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:51.840
Yeah, that's again, but think about it.
01:49:52.000 --> 01:49:55.199
It makes logical sense for an attorney to do that.
01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:57.680
The thing is, it could backfire.
01:49:58.319 --> 01:50:05.199
Because It could be this civil case could be drawn out long after the criminal case.
01:50:05.520 --> 01:50:24.960
I will say, if you if you actually listen to the podcast, The Case Walker Chronicles, we have discussed, say, for instance, when we discussed Jill Behrman, and we talked about how they're they the family was not getting any resolution from the criminal case, then they pursued the civil side of things.
01:50:25.119 --> 01:50:43.680
So I'm not saying it's uncommon to have the civil and criminal uh running alongside or to counteract what the other one does or whatever, but I will say in theory, once there is some kind of proof in the court system, it helps it helps one or both, or hurts.
01:50:43.840 --> 01:50:44.079
Yes.
01:50:44.319 --> 01:50:58.399
So in theory, if we are saying that, you know, this civil case, there is a finding that is ruled as truth, then that could potentially change something in the criminal, or vice versa.
01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:02.960
So there is also a little Go ahead.
01:51:03.199 --> 01:51:09.760
There is a little um uneasiness, I think, that could come about when you're doing this.
01:51:09.840 --> 01:51:23.359
And I'm not comfortable claiming that this is what that I could actually pull the dates when all this was filed, but it just we again our analysis, not not legal advice.
01:51:23.600 --> 01:51:27.199
So, and I actually am gonna tell you right here.
01:51:27.439 --> 01:51:36.720
So on January 22nd of 2026, Lindsay Clancy filed her own medical malpractice suit in Norfolk Superior Court.
01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:43.760
Now, if you remember when we went back to the very beginning, we talked about which county is the criminal case in.
01:51:44.399 --> 01:51:45.359
Do you remember?
01:51:48.880 --> 01:51:50.239
This is a quiz.
01:51:52.560 --> 01:51:56.079
Uh that one's in Norfolk County.
01:51:56.239 --> 01:51:57.039
No, I don't remember.
01:51:57.359 --> 01:51:57.920
Plymouth.
01:51:58.159 --> 01:52:02.319
Her criminal is in Plymouth, and her civil is in Norfolk.
01:52:02.479 --> 01:52:05.840
Specifically assigned to the same judge as Patrick's case.
01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:07.359
Michael Doolin.
01:52:07.439 --> 01:52:11.359
So her complaint names the same four defendants Patrick sued Doctors, Dr.
01:52:11.520 --> 01:52:20.640
Tufts, Nurse Jolotta, Astor Mental Health, and South Shore Health System, plus seven more.
01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:26.560
McLean Hospital, Women and Inference Hospital of Rhode Island, and five individually named providers, Dr.
01:52:26.640 --> 01:52:28.239
Aliyah Goodhart, Dr.
01:52:28.399 --> 01:52:30.720
Zabida Diaz, Dr.
01:52:30.800 --> 01:52:37.840
Elizabeth Modva, nurse practitioner Julie Paul, and licensed mental health counselor Letitia Dukes.
01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:46.880
So Lindsay's own complaint describes a woman who did everything the textbook says to do.
01:52:47.039 --> 01:52:57.199
She recognized something was wrong, sought psychiatric care on her own initiative, went to emergency rooms, called the suicide hotline, and told her providers each time her symptoms were getting worse.
01:52:57.359 --> 01:53:12.720
Her complaint alleges her care was, in its own words, significantly complicated by polypharmacy and the involvement of multiple prescribers, which in effect obscured an accurate diagnosis and appropriate intervention and treatment.
01:53:12.880 --> 01:53:20.479
At Women's and Infants Hospital in December of 2022, her own depression and anxiety screening scores were severe.
01:53:20.640 --> 01:53:40.399
And the complaint alleges the attending psychiatrist there concluded she had no postpartum depression and no bipolar disorder, in part because that psychiatrist never asked about her earlier hypomanic episode after her second child's birth.
01:54:07.279 --> 01:54:18.560
And it's a little when it comes to some of these claims, things are not necessarily she filed it in Norfolk County.
01:54:18.640 --> 01:54:20.479
She's from Plymouth County.
01:54:21.359 --> 01:54:22.399
I'm just saying there's no.
01:54:22.720 --> 01:54:23.840
No, yeah, I know.
01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:28.960
So anyway, one more thing flagged for a future episode, not tonight.
01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:33.359
This docket shows a stipulation referencing an offer of proof and a tribunal.
01:54:33.439 --> 01:54:55.520
That's Massachusetts Mandatory Medical My Practice Tribunal under GLC 23160B, a single Superior Court justice, a Massachusetts licensed physician, and an attorney reviewing whether the plaintiff's offer of proof raises a legitimate question of liability appropriate for judicial inquiry, or whether it's merely an unfortunate medical result.
01:54:55.760 --> 01:54:59.600
Lindsay's offer of proof was filed July 8th, 2026.
01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:02.319
No tribunal ruling yet.
01:55:07.680 --> 01:55:17.760
Also worth flagging for the future episode: the answer filed by three of the defendants, Joel A Paul and South Shore Health, shows this complaint runs 55 separate counts.
01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:21.840
Essentially, the same handful of claims repeated once per defendant.
01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:25.520
Two of their affirmative defenses are genuinely teachable.
01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:30.880
First, comparative negligence under GL 231B.
01:55:31.359 --> 01:55:50.239
Second, and this one tends to surprise people, South Shore Health is invoking GL23185K, Massachusetts charitable immunity statute, arguing that as a nonprofit, any recovery against it is statutorily capped regardless of what a jury finds.
01:55:50.800 --> 01:55:57.199
This woman had sought mental health treatment.
01:55:58.560 --> 01:56:07.760
She noticed, or they, as a married couple, noticed a problem and wanted to uh fix it.
01:56:08.479 --> 01:56:10.319
Isn't that what everybody does?
01:56:10.640 --> 01:56:23.760
I will say what what draws me to this more, um, and because mental health has such a stigma around it, and anyone that has followed me for any length of time knows obviously that is a huge thing for me.
01:56:24.000 --> 01:56:29.279
Um, I huge mental health advocate, seeking help, all of those things.
01:56:29.520 --> 01:56:55.279
But she was a nurse, and I'm not saying that you know, like nurses are above somebody else, but considering what you was a labor and delivery nurse, but you learn and like when you think of postpartum depression, which is its own thing, and they are actually talking about um postpartum psychosis, so that's it's a whole other thing, but in regards to just just say mental health, because nurses they all go through, and I'm I'm drawing a blank on the names.
01:56:55.439 --> 01:57:02.319
Um it's not a cohort, it it's like units, so it's they do like labor and delivery, same with doctors.
01:57:02.479 --> 01:57:09.680
They go through, you know, they have um emergency, they have all these different areas that they have to have a general understanding.
01:57:09.840 --> 01:57:10.960
So she does have a lot of people.
01:57:11.119 --> 01:57:12.560
Amy, you're exact you're exactly right.
01:57:12.640 --> 01:57:14.239
She was super versed in all the signs.
01:57:14.399 --> 01:57:30.800
Yeah, I mean, like, so to me, I think that speaks even more highly because there's a lot of times where people that are just not nurses or doctors, or they don't have, you know, even mental health therapists or anything like that, they don't have that um extra knowledge.
01:57:31.039 --> 01:57:48.239
They may have a different um understanding of the signs, or you know, but when to me, someone who is very well aware of it, now again, there's that whole other aspect of mental health where you don't want to have anything wrong with you, so you kind of suppress it.
01:57:48.720 --> 01:57:52.319
From my understanding so far, it seems like that was not the case.
01:57:52.479 --> 01:58:12.560
No, but I'm I'm trying to remain um open and and watch things play out because I don't want them, I don't think that's I don't think I have to be very careful, but I don't think you can just say, well, he had stuff going on mentally, so that's why this occurred and that makes it okay, or whatever.
01:58:12.640 --> 01:58:13.680
No, it doesn't.
01:58:14.000 --> 01:58:15.199
No, it doesn't no, absolutely not.
01:58:15.520 --> 01:58:16.960
I don't think that that's what we're trying to say.
01:58:17.039 --> 01:58:20.720
I'm just saying that I don't think it's a cut and dry.
01:58:21.520 --> 01:58:21.920
Not at all.
01:58:22.079 --> 01:58:22.800
I don't think so either.
01:58:23.039 --> 01:58:24.479
I think I think it'll continue.
01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:29.199
And what is sad is that this was the conclusion.
01:58:30.079 --> 01:58:39.920
That was the resolution that it it appears that that was her resolution was to end the life of her children and her own.
01:58:40.079 --> 01:58:44.560
Um, and she was successful on three parts of that, not the fourth.
01:58:45.199 --> 01:58:49.039
I I just I personally think this is a very devastating case.
01:58:49.199 --> 01:59:02.159
And I I don't I know again, I put we put ourselves out there for a lot of things, obviously, but it's like you know, I I think of it in terms of uh of that as a human, though.
01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:06.640
Four no Amy, not three, four, five, multiple, multiple.
01:59:07.039 --> 01:59:15.520
Yeah, because you look at the look at the because everyone who was affected, you know, lost lost grandkids, lost cousins, maybe, you know, all of this.
01:59:15.600 --> 01:59:43.039
It's it's terrible, it's awful, and it it comes to full circle to the mental health issue that is going on in this country, on top of the ability to get adequate health care and and be treated, you know, well, because I again I don't I don't think that we really um there's still so much that is unknown about mental health, obviously, and it is ever evolving and ever changing.
01:59:43.199 --> 01:59:58.479
And I understand that there are doctors that have specialties in certain areas, but again, there are we just need to have a bigger conversation about mental health, and people need to not be so upset, like they need to be willing to talk about it.
01:59:58.560 --> 02:00:02.720
It's not let's move on to our clothes because your phone is gonna die.
02:00:04.000 --> 02:00:05.760
Is the particulars for tonight?
02:00:06.239 --> 02:00:07.760
Headlines in, details begin.
02:00:07.840 --> 02:00:09.439
We're back Friday at 9 Eastern.
02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:12.079
Our opinion, our analysis, not legal advice.
02:00:12.239 --> 02:00:16.239
Thank you for walking the cases with us, and we hope to see you Friday at nine.
02:00:16.479 --> 02:00:17.760
Love you guys.
