Case File: Eugene Aserinsky & the Discovery of REM Sleep

The Cadavers Lessons: Welcome back. Happy Friday. got case file number thirty-six. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about Eugene Asurensky. And I hope I'm saying that correctly. I looked it up, but I think it's Russian. So who knows? Who knows? Yeah. yeah, it should be pretty interesting. He's a kind of a weird guy strangely discovered REM kind of on accident and we'll get into it. Sweet, let's do it. What if one of the biggest discoveries in sleep science started with a guy who didn't even want to study sleep? In nineteen fifty, Eugene Asurensky showed up in an office of the man considered to be the father of modern sleep research. He hated the idea of studying sleep, but it was the research he was given. Years later in a cramped sleep lab at the University of Chicago, Astorensky hooked electrodes up to his eight year old son, turned out the lights, and watched the machine. Then something impossible happened. His son was completely asleep, but the machine was recording eye movements that looked like he was wide awake. That discovery would become REM sleep and completely change what we thought the sleeping brain was doing. So how did a broke, unconventional scientist accidentally revolutionize sleep? Well, let's get into it. Welcome, cadaver crew. Get your dark little minds right and settle in. Class is in session and the cadaver is already on the table. I'm B. And I'm Sam. And this is the cadaver's files. Astorensky grew up in Brooklyn in a Yiddish and Russian speaking household. His mother actually died when he was only twelve. No, very okay. Very tragic. Leaving him in the care of his father, Boris, who was a dentist and had a serious gambling problem. Hmm. I don't think you usually hear of dentists having gambling problems, but I mean anybody can have gambling problem. Yeah. At times he would actually have him sit at card tables if they were a player short. So that they could still play the game. Yeah. Yeah. And Sometimes also he would forget to feed him, saying, I'm not hungry, how can you be hungry? Yeah, absolutely. So not great. No. Not great. know, they say it builds character or something like that. Mm. Yeah, or just starving your brain. Yeah. Who am I to say? He graduated from public high school at the age of sixteen. And spent the next twelve years attempting to find a trade or field or an interest or anything. And that's gotta be rough. Yeah. I always forget that in the forties and fifties, school worked differently. yeah. Like you could just graduate high school at sixteen. Mm-hmm. Just wild. Yeah. I mean, I've said it before, but the ophthalmologists I used to work with. he went to med school without graduating college. So he graduated high school early, never graduated college, and was in med school one hundred percent before he turned twenty one. I want to say it was when he was like nineteen, he was already in med school. Like things were just different back then. Yeah. Different requirements, I guess. Now You're being lucky to get into the state school. Yeah. I feel like. Yeah. So took multiple courses in social science, Spanish, and pre-med studies at Brooklyn College, but never received a degree in any of the subjects. Just a little dabble here, dabble there. Yeah. He enrolled at the University of Maryland, dental school, but quit shortly after he realized that he hated teeth. I'm like, that's probably because you're dad. Yeah. Probably have some other stuff going on there. Daddy issues. Yep. During this time he also kept books for an ice company in Baltimore, served as a social worker in the Maryland Department of Employment Security, and was in the US Army as a high explosives handler, even though he was legally blind in one eye. The army'll take anybody. And I guess they're like, Well, if he loses the other eye. Yeah. I don't know. He did a lot. Yeah. I feel like a little amount of time. in nineteen forty nine he was looking to take advantage of his GI Bill and get into some kind of science career. he aced the entrance exams at the University of Chicago and was able to persuade the admissions office to accept him as a graduate student with only a high school degree. So he skipped his bachelor's and said I can I get taken some classes. Yeah, I mean he had lots of credits, just not in anything. That went together really. okay. But I mean he kinda tested out of it, right? Yeah. then it was in nineteen fifty when Astranansky knocked on Nathaniel Kleitman's office door. Kleitman was fifty-five at the time and considered the father of modern sleep research. And we mentioned him in Monday's episode, he's the guy that went to the cave to discover the impact on Sarkidian rhythms. Yes. And the same cave that was used for T V. Yeah. The cave. The cave. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So later Aserensky would write about this encounter, saying there was no joy in this initial encounter for either of us. Some of his quotes are kind of really funny. I feel like PA school isn't as bad because the preceptors are normally BAs, and I don't know why I feel like it's better. I feel like that's like every med student when they're showing up to the first day of rotation and they haven't gotten the doctor to text them back a single time of like what time should I be there? What what should I wear? Where should I meet you? And it's like, yes. Yeah. there was no joy in this initial encounter for either of us. For my part, I recognize Clytemon as the most distinguished sleep through. sleep researcher in the world. Unfortunately, sleep was perhaps the least desirable of the scientific areas I wished to pursue. Me too, brother. You gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah. His interest was actually in organs, but because all the other faculty was otherwise engaged in cellular physiology, Astorensky was stuck with Kleitman as a sponsor. I mean you kinda get in an organ. have the brain. Yeah. Kinda, sorta. Yeah. So his first assignment from Kleiteman was to test a recent claim that the rate of blinking could predict the onset of sleep. So Kleitman had read this article from a physicist named Lawson who claimed to be able to distinguish sleep onset through observing blinking rates while on a train and watching other passengers. So this guy, Lawson, was just riding a train watching people. and noticing their blinking rates before they fell asleep and then wrote this whole article on it and then Clyteman's like, we gotta test that. Which is so silly, right? isn't it crazy that they would just write an article off of a one time observation before ever doing their own actual study on it or anything? Yeah, I forget which magazine it was in or where it was recorded the article, but Lawson had mentioned that the blinking stopped Abruptly with sleep onset rather than being a gradual thing. This did not sit well with Kleitman. He was like, I don't believe you. And so he sent Asarensky on a mission to test Lawson's hypothesis. Where are you gonna go that you can see multiple people sleep? Back on a train? but he could not find a way to measure blink rates successfully. So Asarensky had to confess that he had no progress on this front. he couldn't figure out a way to like measure people's blinking. Yeah. And loss in this guy supposedly was able to observe multiple people at the same time as they were falling asleep on a train. the thing about Asarensky, is that he is very into s doing it the right way. Yeah. He's very into having all of his variables very clear cut and being able to prove a hypothesis. So he was like, not gonna work. So he knocked on Clytemon's door, of like, hey, it's me. It didn't work. And then Clyteman suggested he observe infants while they slept and study what their eyelids did. God. And like infants have the most variable sleep of all time. Exactly. And that's what we're gonna find is that is what makes it very difficult for them. Also, I forgot to put this in here, but in their initial encounter, Aserensky said that basically he met the criteria for a graduate student to help Clyteman because he had a heartbeat. God. So basically he was there. So Clyteman was like, yeah, okay. Yeah. those are like the worst types of preceptors or mentors or you know, whatever you want to call them. Looks like you'll do, I guess. Yeah. Clyteman was already studying infants in his motility cycle study. So these babies slept in their cribs at home, but their body movements were automatically recorded by a device attached to the crib. Kind of just like this device that was measuring the vibrations of the crib their movements. Mm-hmm. And so they were just trying to think of like how much they're moving around sleep. So Astorenski was able to use the same subjects, but still had to observe them. Clyteman was like, you can't use their the data. You have to actually sit there and look at their eyelids. Which is just wow. I would be passed out. Like as someone who has yawned about fifteen times already this podcast because it's God forbid eight fifteen PM. I could not do it. You want me to watch a baby sleep overnight and watch their eyelid movement? No. gonna be a no for me. Yeah. So even this was not very fruitful because he found it difficult to differentiate eyelid movement from eyeball movement. was like, their eyelids are kind of moving but like how do you tell if their eyes are moving underneath their eyelids, which is making their eyelids moving, but you're looking for eyelid movement. Yeah. Why were they looking for eyelid movement specifically? Because they were focused on like blinking and eyelid. Kind of like fluttering. Yeah. And that was what he was having trouble with is defining like what kind of movement are we even looking for? Yeah. Right. And so he went back to that door in that office and said, Hey, Mr. Clyteman, sir, I can't do this. Like this doesn't make it this is not gonna work. And you know Clyteman at this point is like this piece of shit graduate student. They gave me the worst one. Yeah, just make it work, man. Yeah. But He came with a proposal. Okay. He was like, I can't go into this door and walk in here without having an alternate idea. And so he proposed to his mentor that he study all eye movements in sleeping infants. any eye movement that occurs at all, what it looks like throughout the sleep phases. And he later stated that this line of experiments was about as exciting as warm milk. he also was not excited about this. No. After months of observing infants, he found that there was a 20-minute period in each infant's sleep cycle where there was no eye movement at all. And after this occurred, babies usually woke up. Because babies have weird sleep cycles. Yeah. And he believed he was so exact in this observation that he would take a nap. during this time because he knew he wouldn't miss any important data. Yeah. Okay. but like what if their eyes are moving? You know, like we're just missing something that you're trying to say is an absolute truth. And you're like at in these people's homes watching their babies. They're like, I'm tired. Twenty minute nap. Yeah. So he would also impress mothers by telling them exactly when their baby would wake up, to the minute. Be like they're gonna wake up at this time. Mm-hmm. And they would also be pleased because that would mean that he gets to leave. Yes. They were like, Thank goodness my baby's about to wake up and you can go. what if he's like, you know, like tapping the crib a little bit, like, boom, they're awake. Time to go. Sorry. Sorry. The problem is it's such a dilemma because he really needs this research to work out for his degree. But like he also, imagine, is so tired. Yeah. All the time. Get out of here. So after this, Aserensky decided to move to adults, which at the time no scientists had ever made all night continuous measurements of brainwave activity it came to adults. Fair. I mean adults don't take as kindly to being watched the entire night. Right. This also created a lot of confusion for him because he was trying to compare the infants' sleep cycles to adults. Who have very different sleep patterns. And he did not observe REM in infants and found it difficult to distinguish REM an infant waking. Mm-hmm. babies wake up in the night so much, it's hard to see their actual REM cycle. And in other research, sometimes babies don't have REM sleep at all when they're very, very young. know, three week old baby may not have any REM sleep. Yeah. B and I used to question all the time, like, what do you think our daughter's dreaming about? She's not. Well I mean, yeah. But like even even at like four months, we would question that and be like, Do you think it's the dogs? I think that was our answer all the time was that it was the dogs. Right. So after this project, Kleitman suggested that Aserensky join the doctoral program and bypass his master's thesis altogether. His mentor was like, Get out of here. Screw the masters, just get the doctorate. Yeah. And essentially jumping from a high school diploma to a PhD. Yeah, which is just insane. Yeah, exactly. it was a gamble though, because the board That was going to allow him to do this. Basically, everything rode on this research. Like if he didn't find something was meaningful, he wasn't getting his PhD. Yeah. And he wasn't getting his master's because he decided to bypass that. Yeah. And so they were kind of like, you're gambling on yourself. You're either gonna do this or you're gonna lose everything. Yeah. So lots of pressure find an answer here. His project was intended to scrutinize the eye movements for amplitude. Frequency and consistency in patterns relative to then accepted EEG classification of sleep stages. So match the movements with what's happening on the EEG in accordance to the sleep stages that were already being recognized. Specifically, based on his infant research, he intended to find a distinct and unique 20-minute period of sleep and be able to associate it with physiological variables. like the movement of your eyes. Yeah. So this was so vital and so important because at the time he and his wife Sylvia, plus their son and a daughter on the way, lived on campus in an old converted army barracks that was heated by just a kerosene stove. Money was extremely tight. Yes. And if this doesn't work, you've now wasted time and you have no money. You have nothing. You have no career. Yeah. Money was so tight that Astorenski would accept a small loan from his dissertation advisor, Nathaniel Kleitman. you know he didn't want to take that. You know, yeah. He said, This guy hates me. I hate this research, but also I gotta eat dinner. Yeah, exactly. to conduct his experiments, he found an abandoned Offner Dinograph. That was actually an original prototype that Franklin Offner, creator, original inventor, created this prototype by hand and just left it in this school, the University of Chicago. Wild. Like it sounds like he's getting something so cheap, but like now we know that's something so cool and so rare. Yeah, I know. Right. This highly versatile direct writing polygraph and recorder was eventually used as an EEG for NASA. Fun fact. Okay. Yeah, so this design eventually became into what they used for astronauts to measure their brain activity. Mm-hmm. pretty cool. This machine though, this prototype, was often temperamental and was difficult to find replacement parts for and calibrate because it was a prototype. There was no build instructions, there was literally nothing He actually called Franklin Offner on the phone and was like, Hey, can I get like schematics on this thing so that I can figure out how to calibrate it? Offner said, I don't even know what that is. It doesn't have a build number or anything. Like it doesn't have any kind identification code on it or anything. And he was like, you know what that is? built that that one time. Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing I can do for you there. He's like, it was an experiment basically. Hence why I left it behind. Right, exactly. And so actually Asarensky had to convince think another faculty member help him calibrate it, who was like this mathematical genius and electrical engineer genius kind of and basically had to beg him to be like, man, I need your help. I need to calibrate this machine. and guy was like, Yeah, if you get me the schematics, I'll calibrate And he was like, No. No, no, no. It's just me and you. It's just Me, you and this machine. Okay. And I need it to work. Yeah. eventually got that thing calibrated. But throughout this time, would always question if the machine was making mistakes or if something was wrong. And so he would like go back and forth between the observation room and the person doing the sleep study and like look at them and look at their eyes move and then run back and be like, Is the machine moving? And so he was just always questioning the readings on the machine. And it's hard, right? 'Cause he's also trying to compare it to babies. Right. Which like, Why why aren't they moving? But they might not have been in rim sleep, you know. And so I'm sure some of it was also the confusion of not realizing baby sleep cycles are so different. Yeah. So in December nineteen fifty one, at thirty years old. Wow. All this has happened and he's only thirty years old. Yeah. Asterensky used the Offner dinograph that he had been customizing. On his eight year old son, Armand. Okay. So his son sat on the army cot in the sleep lab located on the second floor of Abbott Hall at the University of Chicago. I kinda think that it this is sad, I kinda think this is the way that his son him bonded. You know? Yeah. he was spending so much time trying to get this to work. So that he can have a PhD and have something to show for his life. Yeah. Not for his life, but like for his time, I guess I should say. Yeah. Asmarinsky scrubbed his son's head and skin around the eyes with acetone, then taped electrodes. Acetone. Yeah. That's about that's a bit severe. about acetone's what I use when we drop paint or something and I need to get it off. Yeah. Acetone is burned. Yeah. That's severe. Sorry. I'm wow. Okay. then he taped the electrodes. That were then connected to a switchbox over the cot. Imagine trying to fall asleep in this like rickety old room with a cot. Mm-hmm. Aswarinsky sat in the adjacent room telling his son to look left and right and down and watching the ink pens jump with the eye movement, ensuring that the machine worked as intended. Then he turned out the lights and Armand fell asleep while his father attempted to stay awake at the desk. watching the pens. Mm-hmm. I think they said he was living off like coffee and pretzels. Absolutely. To try to stay awake. Sounds like us when we were coaching saltball. yeah. So hours later, Asurensky noticed that the pens on the graph paper were tracking eye movement and brain activity were swinging back and forth, just like when Armand was awake and looking around. Mm-hmm. was like, What's going on? He ran. To see if Armand was awake. And turns out he was fast asleep. Mm-hmm. He conducted another study with Armand, with the same results, and then started adding other subjects to try to see if he could get it to happen with other people. And it did. And it by this point, he had been doing it for a year. And so his daughter was born April 1952. Unfortunately, his wife suffered from mania and depression, they were so poor at this time he couldn't afford to rent the typewriter he needed to draft his dissertation. Wow, imagine finally having the research and literally not being able to write it. Yeah. His daughter later recalled that they were so poor that her father once stole some potatoes to have something to eat. It's sad. Yeah, it's really sad. At this time, he truly believed he had uncovered something significant. So he started running more than fifty sleep sessions on two dozen subjects with better EEG machines. He was like, gonna make this work. Yeah, I got it. Originally he thought of calling the phenomenon jerky eye movements, but he knew that people would make fun of him for saying jerk. Yes. so he said, we can't do that. And then finally, September nineteen fifty three, Asterensky published the results of the experiments conducted in Chicago which was co-authored by his advisor, Kleitman. went on to find and publish that heart rates increased an average of ten percent and respiration went up twenty percent during REM, and that the phase began at a certain amount of time after the onset of sleep. You could have multiple periods of REM during the night. also linked REM to increased body movement and particular brain waves that appear in waking. also found that rapid eye movements correlated with the recall of dreams. So he found a lot. He found a lot. And he almost wasn't able to present what he found. So the most impactful part of this paper and discovery was that it triggered an era of sleep and brain studies within the scientific communities. Before this, nobody was interested in sleep. Nobody cared. Including Asarinsky. Yeah, including him. Including him. But once this paper was released and people found out that sleep wasn't just this passive thing and that there was a connection to dreams, people were very interested. Yeah. So after this discovery of REM, scientists were studying the sleeping brain and understanding it as something that could actually cycle between two distinct states, one characterized by deep slow wave sleep and rem, the other characterized by activity, rem, where vivid dreams occur. Sometimes the brain may even consume oxygen and glucose to equal or higher results than when awake. So this kicked off the diagnosis and treatment of sleep disorders that were affecting tens of millions of people. Yeah. I mean I guess that's not something I had thought about, but you don't really think about sleep disorders if you don't have an understanding of sleep. Right. that's why, know, you stick with the folklore. Yeah, the witches and the demons and the cats. And the cats. Yeah. So in a quote from Bert States, a professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara, who has written multiple books on dreams and dreaming, he stated that the discovery of REM sleep was just about as significant to the study of cognition as the invention of the telescope was to the study of the stars. Wow, that's quite profound. Yeah. So maybe surprisingly, don't know. With his personality, I could see this going either way. Asterensky left the University of Chicago in nineteen fifty-three, the same year he published that famous paper, and essentially turned his back on sleep research. I think it's gotta actually hold such a poor time in your life because you are quite literally barely putting food on the table for your family after years of research and like having to work so hard for something. I can understand wanting To walk away from it. I get it. You like finally had this big discovery and you published your paper and you all of this, but like emotionally this was a very hard time in his life. Yeah. Very rough. So he went to the University of Washington in Seattle and studied the effects of electrical currents on salmon. Cause that's what you do in Seattle. okay. I mean, I I would take the sleep over the salmon, but each his own. Yeah. Eventually he landed a faculty physician at Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia there he explored high frequency brain waves and respiration. So still brain associated. Mm-hmm. Now in nineteen fifty seven, four years after he wrote that paper, tragically his wife Sylvia took her own life. no. Yeah. She had been suffering from depression and staying at a mental hospital in Pennsylvania when she took her life. Man, it's I feel like it's even harder when they are getting help and like the help wasn't enough. Yeah. It sounds like she was really suffering for a very long time. He remarried in 1959 to Rita Roseman, who had also lost her significant other and brought her daughter Iris into the marriage. And they were married until Rita's death in nineteen ninety-four. Okay, so they at least had time together. Yeah. thirty-five years. Yeah. And I think the kids got along. Good. Just based on the adult conversations and articles that I read. Mm-hmm. In the nineteen sixties, Aserensky went back to the field of sleep where he worked on the physiology of REM and non-REM sleep. So I read something that his son kind of was like, Dad, you gotta go back into what started this all. Mm-hmm. And that triggered him to go back into sleep studies. And there was a lot of contention when he went back into studying sleep, because oftentimes Astorensky would be offended due to the fact that Kleitman and William Dement would often receive credit on items he believed belonged to him. Mm-hmm. So Dement was a medical student who assisted Astarensky starting in 1952. So after a year into trials, basically. Yeah. And he helped him with the overnight sleep studies. And he was very interested in studying the connection of dreams and REM. Mm-hmm. that's what he was like kind of like, I'll help you out. But I also wanna use some of this research, yeah. Later he would publish multiple papers with Kleitman on the subject of dreams and REM. He also brought women into the study. So Asarensky was like, We're not studying women. Just God forbid we study women. I think mostly because watching women sleep with two men is like Yeah. Or one guy is like not great, doesn't look very good. Mm-hmm. And so since When Dement joined there was two of them and Kleitman said, Since there's two of you, you can hold each other responsible so you can have women come into the study. Dement was really I think he brought his girlfriend at the time into the study and then a few other women into it as well. And they noticed that they had the same sleep cycles as men. Crazy. Yeah. this was only one of like the contentions between them. there was many, many more, including the dispute on who actually introduced the term rapid eye movement. I think later in Dement's papers, he often said, it's a team effort. You know, we did it as a team. And then Astorensky would say, you came to like five overnight studies out of all of them. I grind it through this. Okay. I watched and then sleep. before you came along. Right. So you could see where he would be a little like hurt about it. I get it. And then this young med student comes in and is like, Hey, let me be a part of your study. Can my girlfriend a part of it too? Yeah. Because they paid them like three dollars a night or something like that to just be in the study and sleep there. So a lot of other med students would come because they weren't making any money. Yeah, why not? So they would just be like, You're paying three dollars a night for me to sleep here? do it. I'll sleep here every night. Yeah, exactly. that was only one of the kind of contentions, but it wasn't just demant, it was a lot of the sleep study world as well. Just because Asterensky was like very stubborn, very direct, not someone you're gonna like be buddy buddy with. Yeah. In nineteen seventy-six, he was passed over for chairman in the physiology department at Jefferson Medical College. So he left and became chairman at Marshall University in Huntington, West Virginia. said, If I can't do it here, I'll do it somewhere else. Watch me leave. He retired in nineteen eighty seven. And was known for his stubbornness, like I was saying, which also happened to show in his family relations, especially with his son Armand, who he had no contact with for years. Which is really sad. So they had a very contentious relationship. And it sucks 'cause like Armand is the person that he discovered Rim Sleep on. Yeah. you kinda want this like full circle moment of like he gets back into studying sleep and Armand is like right there with him, then you kinda find out that isn't what happened. Armand is a psychologist now. alive. Mm hmm. Okay. Practicing. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. think he's done interviews on his dad before. I'm sure. think there's some podcasts out there that have interviewed him. Yeah. No. And then I think his daughter a lawyer for the animal protection services in California. Armand's daughter? No. Asarinski's daughter. Yeah. her name's Jo, but should've put that in there. So Asurensky died unexpectedly in a car accident when he collided with a tree while driving down a hill in Calzband, California. was seventy-seven and the autopsy could not determine the cause of the accident, it's debated if he fell asleep at the wheel or something else occurred. That would be some shit if the fell asleep. If the man who discovered Rem sleep. and did an immense amount of research on sleep, died by falling asleep at the wheel. Mm-hmm. Wow. Wild. that is the of sad life of Eugene Asterensky. Yeah. And his amazing discovery of REM. There is some dispute because there was a paper written prior to his paper. That kind of explored REM as well. And they do he did cite that research in his paper or his later papers in 1955. so some people are like, Well, he didn't actually discover it, but as far as actual definition of REM, he did. Yeah. think that's that's so cool. And like, know it's hard to have discovered this in my opinion before this time because you need to access to EEG and you know, that takes time to come. things can't be discovered until we have the scientific advancements to discover them and then figure out all the things that they can be used for. Does that make sense what I'm trying to say? Right. You need the inventions to catch up the to the mind, the way of thinking to test the hypothesis. Yeah. But how sad that like him and his family immensely struggled through him getting his PhD. Then he walks away from the field, wife dies, doesn't have a good relationship with his kids, then he dies. Yeah. I think he eventually at least his daughters, cause his stepdaughter too, I think they had a relatively reasonable relationship. I just say that because there was this whole article about him attending a conference and they were there and they were talking about how proud they were of him, of him speaking and all this kind of stuff. So I don't know if those relationships got better or not, but I think just the pressure of having to come up with something out of nothing. Yeah. And everything is riding on it. Like that's a lot of tension. I agree. yeah, that is Eugene Astronsky. Well, we'll get out of here. Check out our show notes to find our link tree to find everything in one place, including where to listen, how to support in the Amazon storefront. Reminder to help us out on buy me a coffee dot com. If that's not available to you, Continue interacting with us on social media and sharing the podcast with people that you think are interested. If you have an idea for an episode or a case file, you can DM us on social media or you can email us at the cadaverslessons at gmail dot com. Also, if you have a story you would like us to read on the podcast and share, you can send us that as well and we'll do a little listeners episode. Yes. And then our next episode is on C sections. Which are probably a little bit older than you think they are. That they are. yeah, the data the data's really interesting and think it's a great topic for now, because I feel like I see a lot of things on social media of like, why are they pushing C sections so hard? know, back at this time the C section rate was only this and now it's this. It's like, well, the maternal and Fetal mortality rate was also much higher at that time. Yeah. And it's much lower now. And we understand and have ultrasound to see breach presentations. You know, just all of these different things. And I feel like I see it a lot on social media without people actually thinking through why the C section rate has increased. So we are gonna talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Awesome. Can't wait. Okay. Classes dismissed. Stay safe. Stay curious. And don't try this at home. Unless you own a bones all. And maybe sleep studies. Don't do that. I I want to go to sleep. Well Yeah, I would like to go to sleep. Yeah. I'm not gonna stay awake and study it though. No. Bye guys. Bye.
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