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That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait, but to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him just the tiniest little bit.
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To show that they were connected in some way.
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That's a picture that went on the wall.
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Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast.
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I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
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And each week I interview, one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same.
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In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with family portrait photographer, Dori Howell, about creating emotional connections with your subjects and building a sustainable photography business.
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But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot.
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Cloudspot has everything that you need to build a thriving photography business.
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You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow in just one simple platform.
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Grab your free forever account today over at deliverphotos.
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com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready.
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I can tell you from experience that finding your footing when starting a photography business can be pretty overwhelming.
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There's the technical, there's the emotional, and then there's business challenges that you have to face as well.
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And at times, personally, I would find myself struggling to connect with my subjects in a way that they deserved, because maybe I'd be thinking about all the business stuff.
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Or, on the flip side of that coin, when the business was struggling, I didn't necessarily know exactly, how to fix it because, I wasn't skilled in business.
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So today's guest, Dori Howell, she's going to share from her journey of discovering that power of creating meaningful moments in her photography, why that's so important and why she found it.
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focuses on that, as well as learning from your mistakes.
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You know, as I said, we make mistakes when you don't know what's going on in business, it's hard to know what you need to do, but you know, when you make a mistake, and she'll also share obviously how to adapt to client needs so that you can do the same, In today's episode with Dory Howell, you will learn the importance of emotional connection in portrait photography, how to evolve your business practices to an ever changing, business climate and how to build confidence and skill through practice and feedback.
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We talk about it all, honestly.
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So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's Rewind interview with Dory Howell.
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Dory, I really want to keep this simple.
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When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?
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whew.
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I can narrow it down to, I don't remember the day and time, but I remember the image that I took.
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I was a new mom at the time, and my husband, Now I'm going to date myself here and say this is before cell phones had cameras and were used for almost everything else except for actually calling people.
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But, I took a picture of my daughter standing in our front entryway, leaning against like the transom windows and just the way the light hit her.
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It was more of a silhouette, that type of thing.
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And I snapped it and it's still to this date one of my favorite pictures that I've taken of her and, I've named it waiting for daddy.
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And it was at that point in time, I would say probably 12 years ago, I decided like my heart just sang when I took that picture.
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And that was, a changing point.
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I just dove feet first into everything, photography, how to learn my gear, how to.
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I didn't even know that there were raw photos at that point in time.
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I knew nothing at that point in time and I just, went for it.
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100%.
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So before this, what were you doing?
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Did you have any sort of creative, aspirations before that?
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Or did that photo like completely transform your life?
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I was in school for vocal performance.
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Oh, so yes, that photo completely transformed your life.
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Yeah.
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At that point in time, I had been running a, private voice studio teaching people how to sing.
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I'd been doing that for about five years and, I was in school to complete my vocal performance degree because it was just something that I needed to cross off the list.
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I'm a singer.
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I started singing when I was five years old.
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I've always been a singer, and so I had always had something very creative.
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And my parents, my mom was creative and we were always involved in something, creative.
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And so singing was my outlet.
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That's what got me through school.
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That's all of those things.
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I traveled the world with my voice.
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And, once I had my child, I could see living in the Washington, D.
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C.
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area that I wasn't necessarily going to make any money with my voice.
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I could enjoy my voice, but running a studio or that type of thing was not going to get me financially where I wanted to be.
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And I think a lot, this is something that a lot of singers and a lot of creatives can really, really, empathize with like, yeah, you want to do it, but how do you make money doing it?
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And I come from a very entrepreneurial background.
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My dad owned his own business.
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My mom worked in the business.
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Very entrepreneurial in spirit.
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And I knew that, I needed to make some cash.
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That's where it all came down to.
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So when photography came in, I started taking pictures of my child.
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And then I think it's the same story that a lot of other.
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I'll just stereotype it and say a lot of other young moms get into this.
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They have a child, they start taking pictures and then they realize, oh, there's an art to this.
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There's an art to the posing.
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There's an art to the light placement.
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There's ways that I can do this to make it more beautiful.
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And then people start to notice and then they ask them to take pictures.
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And then all of a sudden you have a little side hustle going and you realize that you want to make it more.
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And that's where I was.
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That's how it all started.
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So then in the beginning, let's go back to that photo that you took of your daughter waiting for daddy.
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You think to yourself, Oh my gosh, I can make this happen.
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I love this photo.
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I want to go at this full time.
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At that point.
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I'm assuming that you were just shooting an auto like where when did the technical side of photography come in for you?
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Well, you're right.
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I was just shooting in auto.
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So I had another friend who was a photographer as well.
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And I called her up and I said, Hey, can you give me a few guidelines?
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Can you kind of point me in the right direction?
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This was before Facebook, even Facebook was just starting, like literally just starting.
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I think I created my Facebook account maybe two months before my daughter was born.
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And, she said, yeah, there's these online forums.
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You should go to, you should go to check out this.
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ILP and check it out and you can get a lot of information.
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And that's what I did.
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I just dove in and I realized, okay, I need to learn my camera setting.
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So I bought, Brian Peterson's understanding exposure, which talked about the triangle ISO, shutter speed.
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aperture, those types of things.
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I learned how that triangle worked.
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And then, I just practiced.
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I practiced and I practiced and I practiced.
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And then I got into the, whole post processing side and played with actions for a little bit that really didn't suit what I wanted to do because I wanted my images to be really clean and not look impacted by any sort of post processing.
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So I just, played and I practice and I played and I practice.
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And I was a very, very keen observer to what people were saying in these forums, even though I wasn't a wedding photographer, I would go and wedding threads and find out what they were talking about as far as lighting goes or posing or those types of things.
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And then I just practiced that really was it.
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we'd be watching TV and I'd be sitting, playing with my camera to make sure that I could change all the settings without having to look at it.
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And I would do that for hours, just sit and play with the settings.
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And go outside and do the exercises.
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Okay, so what does my picture look like if I do a f stop of 2.
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8?
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What does it look like if I stop it down?
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What if I do it even more?
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How does that impact my images?
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And then I could go back and decide, okay, well, when I have someone in front of my camera, I can't go down to 2.
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8.
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I need to go up, or down.
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However, you look at it when you're thinking about after all those different things, I really just dove in and practice was my biggest friend and I wasn't scared.
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And I think going back to my previous life as a singer where you're used to making mistakes in front of people where you have to be comfortable putting yourself all out there.
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I'm totally comfortable making a mistake and taking a bad picture and realizing, okay, well that didn't work.
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Let's try it a different way.
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and that whole trial and error aspect of just my personality, I think served myself very well when it came to photographer and to photography and being able to dive in and just see what worked and what didn't.
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Yeah, I think, figuring out that whole thing of like, what doesn't work here when you see those photos?
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What doesn't work here?
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That's a big thing.
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So for you to be able to tell yourself that's totally okay.
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Now I just have to figure out what it is and move forward.
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So where you're at now with the technical skills and abilities, to be able to capture, beautiful images.
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If you go back and you look at those first images, what were those mistakes that you were making?
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Or what did you have a hard time to get a grasp on when it came to photography?
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Well, I think because I thought photographing newborn babies would be easy.
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I thought, what do they do?
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They just lie there.
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It's easy.
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It's no big deal.
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Um, and so my first newborn session, talk about just not.
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Being clueless was newborn twins,
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twins,
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and I had no experience with flashes yet, no OCF experience or anything like that.
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Twins.
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And, they lived in this tiny little townhouse with really no light.
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So not only was I dealing with the babies.
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And that's just, you know, a whole nother conversation.
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I was dealing with the technical aspect of trying to get enough light into my entry level DSLR that really could not handle bumping the ISO or anything like that.
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Because it was twins, I couldn't stop down to let enough light into the lens.
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So I had a lot of one baby in focus, one baby out of focus, like that type of thing.
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And it was just a disaster.
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And granted, I think something that people forget when we're dealing with clients, we're taking pictures of the people that they love so much.
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So they don't see all those technical mistakes that we make, but, Oh, that, session was a nightmare.
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It was just, From head to toe.
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It was a nightmare, but I learned a lot in the process.
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I learned about babies.
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I learned about, my equipment, what it could handle, what it couldn't handle and lighting and asking clients if I was going to go into their home more questions about where I would be shooting that type of thing, which made a big difference for the next time.
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Cause I didn't have twins the next time, but I certainly didn't have any issues with the equipment or anything like that.
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Because I was better prepared.
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Oh my gosh.
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So, tell me, like, in what ways did your photography evolve after that?
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Obviously, you realized my camera has limitations, lens might have limitations, the amount of light that I show up with, here's a limitation.
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So, in what ways did your photography change, directly following that?
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Well, it didn't change directly following that because I then I wasn't put in that situation again for a very long time, and I think just taking sessions, practicing and realizing it's kind of hard to say.
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Okay, distinctly what changed at that point in time.
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All I know is that I'm an evolving photographer, and every session I do, I strive to be better because that's my personality.
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I never Sit back and say, I've done this before.
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This is going to a piece of cake.
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I'm just going to try everything like I did it last time.
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I'm constantly striving to be better.
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So I can't say specifically at that point, what I did better, because sometimes it takes a while to absorb what happened, especially in a situation like that, you have to sit back and absorb it and then realize, okay, I need to change this for next time.
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I need to change this for next time.
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But a true, true.
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Business and game changing event for me was when I finally embraced off camera flash and studio photography.
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Absolutely.
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Because I can go into any situation now and know that I can get a great image of the people who have hired me to photograph them.
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And it doesn't matter if they show up late and we're in a park, I can still get a great session.
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It doesn't matter if I'm walking into a tiny little townhouse in Georgetown with those Georgetown, in DC, they have these tiny little windows and literally the biggest light source is either a sliding glass door going out to the back door that they have, tables and all sorts of stuff in front of, so it's not really conducive to move or it's the front door with it open.
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And that's really not great for a session either.
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But once I embraced.
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traveling with my lights, getting over the hangup of it was a lot of gear to bring in, or it looked like a lot of gear to me to bring in.
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Once I got past that idea that I didn't need it and accepted that, yes, I need it for my business.
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I need it.
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The game totally changed.
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And
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my lighting setup is very simple.
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It's nothing complicated at all.
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It's one light.
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It's a big umbrella.
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off to the side.
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It's nothing fancy at all.
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But once I embraced that, it totally changed.
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What was it like getting into off camera flash, though?
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Because one thing that I hear from a lot of new photographers is they're scared.
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First of all, they're having a hard enough time just getting a grip on their camera settings themselves.
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And now we want to introduce flash in here.
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So what was that like for you?
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Well, I cheated.
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I'll be totally honest.
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I'm a cheater.
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I bought pro photo lights with TTL so I could just throw it up and worst case scenario, throw it in a manual.
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And I know I'm going to get a good image now.
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Do I do that all the time?
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No.
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In fact, I do it very, very rarely, but to know that I have that technology that.
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can save me and in tough times or in sticky situations is what I need.
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Personally, that's, what gives me the courage to take maybe a little bit of a risk because I know that if I take a few shots and they're just not working, I can be like, okay, hold on a second, click, click, click, click, click.
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And I can get it back to where I need it to be.
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So my pro photo lights are something that I say, you know, I'm going to be married with my buried with my lights.
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I love my lights.
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And I'm not a, spokesperson for them or anything like that, but I did a lot of research on it and that's what I chose.
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So TTL technology was huge for me.
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And then I got to be in situations where I just know my, settings for certain situations.
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I know when I go into a studio that they need to be set my starting point is here.
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And then, adjust it from a certain point.
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It's like with time, like I said, it's just babysits time experience where you start to get to know your equipment.
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You get to know your, most of the situations that you're in, you get to trust yourself a little bit more.
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And then all of a sudden you realize you're doing it seamlessly without even really have to think about it, but it takes a little time to get there.
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That makes sense.
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That's kind of like with everything, though, right?
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I don't know if you feel the same way, but like, there's this misconception, I think, with photography, where because it's so readily available in a phone, or there's just this idea that it's easy, but I think with anything.
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If you're gonna give it a real shot, you very quickly realize how not easy it can be.
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But the more reps that you put in, the better, it is that you're gonna get.
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And no one's perfect the first time.
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I mean, Everything in life is a process.
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So you look at a newborn baby or a toddler who's learning to walk.
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They just don't get up and walk across the room.
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Like they need a lot of encouragement.
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They fall down a lot of times they, fall to the side, they fall back, they fall on their face and we're always around their hovering, trying to protect them so they don't hurt themselves when they fall, but they always get up.
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And I think that's something as adults, we forget like, Oh, I should be able to do that in.
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It shouldn't take that much time at all because I've got a fancy camera.
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Well, you still have to learn how to use your tools.
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Yeah.
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You still have to learn how to use your heart and how you want to use those tools.
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You still have to be able to communicate and deal with people.
00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:25.447
in a great, loving, compassionate way when they're in front of your lens.
00:16:25.926 --> 00:16:27.977
So all of that just, it takes time.
00:16:27.977 --> 00:16:43.903
And I think new photographers especially are kind of given the short end of the stick that they go and they're listening to a lot of, gurus or experts forgetting that those experts have been in the business 15, 20, 30 years and not realizing that they didn't start there.
00:16:44.333 --> 00:16:45.593
They didn't start where they are now.
00:16:45.593 --> 00:16:47.413
They all started not knowing.
00:16:47.841 --> 00:16:52.910
If an 8 f stop was open or closed, everybody started there.
00:16:53.581 --> 00:16:58.640
And I think that gets lost in a lot of the communication that is put out to newer photographers these days.
00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:00.800
Yeah, we all started back where you are.
00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:08.851
we all had fears when it came to like off camera flash to me, like coming back to so many people, new photographers see that it's scary.
00:17:09.141 --> 00:17:13.971
I think it's scary because the people that they listen to make it more than it needs to be.
00:17:14.320 --> 00:17:14.341
Yeah.
00:17:14.651 --> 00:17:19.351
And if you break it down and realize, okay, this controls this, this controls this.
00:17:19.721 --> 00:17:23.721
And then you go out and you play with it a little bit and you start to see how it works.
00:17:24.081 --> 00:17:25.111
It's not that scary.
00:17:25.111 --> 00:17:26.891
You just have to, believe that you can do it.
00:17:27.294 --> 00:17:31.764
And if something sounds too complicated, that person's probably over complicating it.
00:17:32.173 --> 00:17:32.473
Right.
00:17:32.473 --> 00:17:32.854
Because it's
00:17:32.864 --> 00:17:33.264
not.
00:17:33.364 --> 00:17:35.814
it doesn't need to be difficult, but you do need to practice.
00:17:36.553 --> 00:17:46.508
Yeah, I think that there's, a few limitations that, when you're new to photography, that is just Whoa, like, I can't go above one to 50th of a second or whatever, like, hold on, that's hard.
00:17:46.847 --> 00:17:50.557
But I mean, as you said, there's so many, advancements in technology.
00:17:50.557 --> 00:17:52.917
And as you continue to practice, you're going to get better.
00:17:52.917 --> 00:18:05.201
But it's interesting, I was thinking about when you said that we all started somewhere and I was thinking about myself and my own journey and I distinctively remember Googling if I needed, like, why should I buy a 50 millimeter 1.
00:18:05.201 --> 00:18:10.951
8 lens if I have an 18 to 55, uh, you know, kit lens that came with it.
00:18:11.221 --> 00:18:12.730
I was like, right, why do I need that?
00:18:13.030 --> 00:18:13.230
Yeah.
00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:14.453
The focal length is in there.
00:18:14.453 --> 00:18:15.874
Why do I need to buy this?
00:18:15.913 --> 00:18:19.553
and obviously as time goes on, we get better about those things, but,
00:18:19.783 --> 00:18:20.614
and the 1.
00:18:20.614 --> 00:18:21.114
8 to steal.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.185
Oh my gosh, I know, it's
00:18:23.185 --> 00:18:24.519
one of the best lenses,
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:28.098
one of the best values in photography if you're just getting started.
00:18:28.138 --> 00:18:28.638
Yeah.
00:18:28.838 --> 00:18:34.568
For you, when it came to photography, you were talking about looking like over wedding forms earlier.
00:18:34.788 --> 00:18:38.548
What was it about portraits in particular that really sang to you?
00:18:38.995 --> 00:18:41.188
I love faces, 100%.
00:18:41.469 --> 00:18:43.058
I love faces.
00:18:43.158 --> 00:18:43.908
I love.
00:18:44.135 --> 00:18:46.405
the flexibility of them.
00:18:46.465 --> 00:18:48.365
I love the emotions that they show.
00:18:48.405 --> 00:18:58.326
I love, looking at pictures of just faces, beautiful faces of all different colors and shapes and sizes and ages and the whole bit.
00:18:58.766 --> 00:19:05.898
There's just something about a beautiful portrait of a face that just, that's what I love.
00:19:06.308 --> 00:19:19.798
And so what you see in my portfolio may not reflect that, but every client who comes to me, everyone who gets in front of my lens will walk away with what I consider a beautiful portrait of their face.
00:19:20.239 --> 00:19:25.521
it's just something that when I get it in every session, I'm just like, yes, that's what it is.
00:19:25.761 --> 00:19:28.051
It's people, it's photographing faces.
00:19:28.808 --> 00:19:38.825
I love how, that first part of that you were talking about, it's like, this is a silhouette, like, we don't really see many faces in a silhouette, but it's great to, I think hear your progression there.
00:19:38.855 --> 00:19:40.434
It's like, well, it started with this.
00:19:40.434 --> 00:19:45.534
And obviously there's elements that you can love that aren't necessarily just a single thing and focus on that.
00:19:45.534 --> 00:19:51.974
But, when it comes to faces, when it comes to wanting to photograph faces, You're not doing headshots, right?
00:19:52.095 --> 00:19:59.585
So tell me what are some of the elements that go into a great portrait that aren't necessarily a headshot?
00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:09.062
well, I do headshots and I still kind of, I lean for the same idea when I'm doing like commercial headshots versus say a child's portrait.
00:20:09.593 --> 00:20:12.288
Eyes, it's the eyes, getting those eyes focused.
00:20:12.647 --> 00:20:22.014
really sharp and that connection between the camera and me and the person that they're looking right at me or right at the lens.
00:20:22.464 --> 00:20:33.335
I love the difference in skin texture and all the different shapes and colors of lips and that type of thing, just all of it combined is.
00:20:33.724 --> 00:20:36.295
I just think something incredibly beautiful.
00:20:36.714 --> 00:20:37.004
Mm hmm.
00:20:37.356 --> 00:20:39.186
What was the last portrait session that you did?
00:20:39.817 --> 00:20:41.586
Oh, that was actually a headshot for an actor.
00:20:41.606 --> 00:20:49.317
Um, so, and he was older, he was looking for that connection and different personalities and different styles and that kind of stuff.
00:20:49.706 --> 00:21:04.210
But if you take a session that I did right before COVID hit was a family with three children, one set of twins that were five at that point in time, and then they also brought with them the mothers, my clients, mother and father who didn't speak any English.
00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:04.829
I think they're from.
00:21:05.490 --> 00:21:06.960
Belarus or some Mm-Hmm.
00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:07.799
country like that?
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:08.789
No English.
00:21:08.849 --> 00:21:18.769
And also from a culture that does not smile for photography they didn't speak English like I said, but they didn't have a lot of personality even when they did speak, except that they were speaking to the children.
00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:22.309
But if they were speaking to the adults, it was very, very dry.
00:21:22.355 --> 00:21:31.126
And I asked, they were getting ready and the grandpa who didn't speak any English, I just said, can he come sit here and be my light tester?
00:21:31.656 --> 00:21:45.307
And she told him in their language to come over and he sat down and he looked at me and he, and you could tell he was posing in a way that he felt was appropriate for the type of portrait that he was having taken.
00:21:45.537 --> 00:21:46.497
he was in a suit.
00:21:46.537 --> 00:21:48.076
He sat up very tall.
00:21:48.236 --> 00:21:51.787
He had his feet planted, his hands on both knees.
00:21:52.456 --> 00:21:52.876
And.
00:21:53.281 --> 00:21:59.251
Kind of turned, I turned him a little bit and he looked straight at the camera, you would think no expression was there whatsoever.
00:21:59.442 --> 00:22:11.111
But if I go back and I look at that picture, like I can see that that grandpa was pleased to be in a room with his three beloved grandsons and his daughter and that family.
00:22:11.111 --> 00:22:13.201
And he was very proud to be sitting there.
00:22:13.476 --> 00:22:16.517
so that backstory, the backstory always is appropriate.
00:22:16.527 --> 00:22:18.216
You know, you got to throw that in too.
00:22:18.586 --> 00:22:20.706
And then the mother did the same thing.
00:22:20.706 --> 00:22:25.220
And I had even asked if the grandparents would, you know, can he hold her hand?
00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:28.450
Can he give her a peck on the cheek?
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.009
Can he put her arm around her?
00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:40.099
And all of those were met with hard nose, absolutely not culturally acceptable that they would do that in public, let alone have a public picture taken of them.
00:22:40.464 --> 00:22:40.865
Yes.
00:22:40.924 --> 00:22:42.534
Knowing that sort of emotion.
00:22:42.534 --> 00:22:49.004
So I literally have a picture of the two of them Facing me just shoulder to shoulder, facing me straight on.
00:22:49.555 --> 00:22:51.444
And I'm like, okay, what can I do with this?
00:22:51.494 --> 00:22:53.605
And so I just indicated grandma.
00:22:53.605 --> 00:22:55.384
I said, can you just tilt your head?
00:22:55.774 --> 00:22:59.269
Just the tiniest, tiniest bit in towards him.
00:22:59.278 --> 00:23:01.918
Cause I think they would have been married for like 63 years.
00:23:02.324 --> 00:23:02.644
Wow.
00:23:02.943 --> 00:23:06.283
And I took that shot and that's the shot that the daughter fell in love with.
00:23:06.344 --> 00:23:11.403
That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait.
00:23:11.644 --> 00:23:23.793
But to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him, just the tiniest little bit to show that they were connected in some way.
00:23:24.233 --> 00:23:27.007
That's a picture that went on the wall for that family.
00:23:27.376 --> 00:23:33.104
And so those are the types of connections that I like when I'm looking for just that beautiful head shot.
00:23:33.374 --> 00:23:43.193
Now, granted for a toddler, I'm just hoping they're looking at the camera as they're running around, you know, just to get that good, but it's an energy behind the fire in their eyes that you can catch that is so beautiful.
00:23:43.878 --> 00:23:46.078
That you caught that split moment of time.
00:23:46.252 --> 00:23:47.593
That's a beautiful story, by the way.
00:23:47.682 --> 00:23:48.873
So thank you for sharing that.
00:23:49.282 --> 00:23:51.942
In that moment, were you worried that you weren't getting it?
00:23:52.582 --> 00:24:00.502
Were you nervous that, there wasn't enough emotion or excitement or intimacy between these photos?
00:24:00.822 --> 00:24:10.416
I guess I'm just trying to figure out, if you were to show up in that situation, if I were to show up and, photograph a family, I'm thinking fun, excitement, joy, and this is none of those things.
00:24:10.622 --> 00:24:17.861
So, were you, worried inside or was this, an awareness thing of, you know what, this is who they are and this is, what we're getting.
00:24:18.551 --> 00:24:21.041
I think it's a combination of a couple things.
00:24:21.041 --> 00:24:22.662
One is being in the Washington, D.
00:24:22.662 --> 00:24:22.922
C.
00:24:22.922 --> 00:24:27.601
area, I serve a lot of people that don't speak English as a first language.
00:24:27.711 --> 00:24:29.241
And they're coming from different cultures.
00:24:29.382 --> 00:24:31.491
And, I've learned to respect that.
00:24:31.926 --> 00:24:40.156
And I can ask for certain things, but if a client says no, or shakes their head or that type of thing, then it's a, no, there's no pressing there.
00:24:40.166 --> 00:24:41.297
It's just like, this is it.
00:24:41.787 --> 00:24:50.186
I do worry sometimes that I'm going to be able to capture the connection that they want to see, because ultimately I'm hired by them to get the images that they want.
00:24:50.596 --> 00:24:54.017
And I can't create something that they're not willing to give me.
00:24:54.866 --> 00:25:01.932
So yes, I worry, but then ultimately I also realize that sometimes I can't I'm not responsible for it.
00:25:02.481 --> 00:25:07.162
if they're not going to cooperate or do what I ask, then I have to work within those confines and I get that.
00:25:07.801 --> 00:25:12.872
So no, I don't worry about it too much, but I also want to exceed my client's expectations.
00:25:13.157 --> 00:25:21.867
And sometimes for me to do that, I know I have to ask them to step out of their comfort zone because they don't necessarily see what I see.
00:25:22.468 --> 00:25:23.988
So it's, kind of like a dance.
00:25:24.052 --> 00:25:33.732
I had to work around it a little bit and pick and choose what you want, because surprisingly enough, the rest of the session with the two young boys and the son, I mean, we were jumping around.
00:25:33.732 --> 00:25:35.302
The kids were on dad's shoulders.
00:25:35.623 --> 00:25:37.822
He was hugging, you know, dad was hugging mom.
00:25:37.873 --> 00:25:40.322
There was a lot of love and affection in this session.
00:25:40.332 --> 00:25:41.292
It was a lot of fun.
00:25:41.603 --> 00:25:46.613
But when the, grandparents came in, it was a different feeling that needed to be captured.
00:25:47.177 --> 00:25:47.778
Wow.
00:25:48.101 --> 00:25:49.221
did you know this beforehand?
00:25:49.251 --> 00:25:55.461
Like, do you have some sort of, questionnaire asking specifically about the people and what sorts of photos that they're wanting?
00:25:56.101 --> 00:26:03.841
I always ask, and I have this on my intake form on my website too, is I, always say, if I could capture the perfect image for you, what would that look like?
00:26:04.241 --> 00:26:04.551
Yeah.
00:26:05.106 --> 00:26:06.807
And, it's a very simple question.
00:26:06.817 --> 00:26:08.997
I could have a wide variety of answers.
00:26:09.497 --> 00:26:12.696
Sometimes it's just like, Oh, my newborn baby with their eyes open.
00:26:12.797 --> 00:26:16.572
Or it's, I just want us to show the love of us as a family.
00:26:16.603 --> 00:26:19.942
Well, that's, I mean, that's great, but that's a very, very vague.
00:26:20.163 --> 00:26:20.363
Yeah.
00:26:20.363 --> 00:26:20.682
So I,
00:26:20.843 --> 00:26:24.629
have learned how to kind of narrow that down a little bit when I'm talking to them.
00:26:24.629 --> 00:26:28.129
Cause I always want to talk to my client before I have a session with them.
00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:30.930
Get to know them, get them to hear my voice.
00:26:31.069 --> 00:26:33.923
there's a lot that can be, and this is my vocal training.
00:26:33.923 --> 00:26:35.913
There's a lot that can be translated with the voice.
00:26:36.272 --> 00:26:38.093
So I think a phone call is really important.
00:26:38.423 --> 00:26:41.195
and you just kind of get to know them a little bit better.
00:26:41.195 --> 00:26:48.985
And sometimes what they put on paper, after you've had that conversation, you realize that's not really the image that you need to get, because mom might tell you something totally different.
00:26:49.066 --> 00:26:51.516
Like she might say on the form.
00:26:51.773 --> 00:26:53.653
I want a picture of our whole family together.
00:26:53.733 --> 00:27:03.053
But then when you're talking to her, you realize the most important picture to her is her three children looking at the camera, smiling with a little mischief in their eyes.
00:27:03.713 --> 00:27:04.043
And then I'm
00:27:04.043 --> 00:27:06.243
like, okay, well that's what I need to concentrate on.
00:27:06.503 --> 00:27:07.874
Yes, I can get the family image.
00:27:07.874 --> 00:27:08.293
That's fine.
00:27:08.334 --> 00:27:09.523
I'm not that out right away.
00:27:09.523 --> 00:27:17.293
That's not a big deal, but what's going to go on the wall, what they're going to love the most and share with their friends and family are the ones, those three kids with that little twinkle.
00:27:17.598 --> 00:27:22.368
And so by having that conversation, it helps narrow that down.
00:27:22.598 --> 00:27:27.061
But like in the situation with those grandparents, no, I did not know what I was looking into.
00:27:27.192 --> 00:27:28.402
I knew they were coming.
00:27:28.736 --> 00:27:31.277
Because I always ask, how many people are going to be there?
00:27:31.277 --> 00:27:32.057
What are their ages?
00:27:32.057 --> 00:27:33.527
What are they like, especially with kids.
00:27:33.527 --> 00:27:39.047
I'd like to know like what Marvel heroes did these kids like, and one was Spider Man and one was Thor.
00:27:39.047 --> 00:27:40.926
So I love Marvel movies.
00:27:40.966 --> 00:27:46.876
As a singer, I can sing any princess song needed for all the little girls, all that kind of stuff.
00:27:46.876 --> 00:27:52.596
So to know what I need to have in my bag of tricks for the successful session, I ask those questions.
00:27:53.106 --> 00:27:54.007
I had a time.
00:27:54.116 --> 00:27:56.616
and then also I dig a little deeper in the phone conversation.
00:27:56.942 --> 00:27:58.442
But the phone conversation is short.
00:27:58.462 --> 00:28:00.643
It's just for us to get to know each other a little bit better.
00:28:01.042 --> 00:28:13.619
Yeah, I mean, that's something that again, a lot of photographers newer photographers really struggle with and myself included, the idea of getting on the phone with somebody, first of all, I hate when my phone rings and I don't know who it is.
00:28:14.129 --> 00:28:18.279
And so it's like, now I'm going to be that person to somebody else.
00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:19.879
And what are you talking about?
00:28:19.879 --> 00:28:21.029
How much are you talking about?
00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:26.809
I know that you're a huge proponent of in person sales and like doing a proper sales session.
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:29.409
So is that where it starts with the phone call?
00:28:29.879 --> 00:28:32.659
Well, there's a lot of different philosophies to this.
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:39.309
And I know that in my former life, yes, I was a huge, huge proponent of IPS and all that stood for.
00:28:39.369 --> 00:28:48.022
And I still am, but I don't necessarily feel that that is the right, way that that program is laid out with the consultation phone call and then the consultation visit.
00:28:48.022 --> 00:28:51.843
And then you do the session and then you meet afterwards and then you meet for the delivery.
00:28:52.123 --> 00:28:59.615
With all these appointments and that type of thing, If that works for your business workflow and your clients love it and you love it, knock yourself out.
00:28:59.855 --> 00:29:02.335
But that's not the reality for a lot of new photographers.
00:29:02.335 --> 00:29:05.805
First of all, they look at that and they think, Oh my gosh, that's so overwhelming.
00:29:06.315 --> 00:29:08.274
I just want to go out and take pretty pictures.
00:29:08.394 --> 00:29:11.034
And I would like to make a little money on the side while I do it.
00:29:11.474 --> 00:29:13.444
And I'd like to be able to.
00:29:13.754 --> 00:29:21.295
Contribute to my family income in some way so that pays for this hobby and maybe we can plan for vacation or put some more money in the college fund.
00:29:21.784 --> 00:29:32.414
and there's obviously photographers who strive for much more, but when you look at it, the traditional IPS model, the way that it's taught can be very overwhelming.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.119
And I don't think it needs to be that way.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:43.279
So getting on the phone for me is something that I do after, usually, after I've sent them some information.
00:29:43.529 --> 00:29:46.019
And a lot of times it happens after they book.
00:29:46.694 --> 00:29:48.865
So they've already bought into me.
00:29:48.934 --> 00:29:50.565
They've already paid me money.
00:29:51.034 --> 00:29:54.444
I have a confidence in knowing, yeah, they really want to work with me.
00:29:54.714 --> 00:30:00.134
And I usually just say, Hey, before we have this session, I just like to hop on the phone for 10 or 15 minutes.
00:30:00.154 --> 00:30:02.504
I have a couple of really quick questions to ask you.
00:30:02.810 --> 00:30:05.664
when can we do this by letting them know ahead of time?
00:30:05.664 --> 00:30:07.575
First of all, I'm not going to take up a ton of their time.
00:30:08.815 --> 00:30:12.218
I have a really set agenda for doing this, that it's a short.
00:30:12.567 --> 00:30:14.337
Just informational phone call.
00:30:14.927 --> 00:30:16.207
And they've already paid me.
00:30:16.207 --> 00:30:17.827
So they're wanting to work with me.
00:30:17.827 --> 00:30:19.228
They've already invested.
00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:26.671
it's very easy to get on the phone, asking a total stranger who has never invested in you, doesn't even know if they want to work with you yet.
00:30:27.010 --> 00:30:31.240
And they've probably sent inquiries to 20 other photographers in your town.
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:34.421
They're going to go with the person who makes business easiest.
00:30:34.830 --> 00:30:36.270
And I totally get that.
00:30:36.540 --> 00:30:38.340
So you want to make business easy.
00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:40.260
A phone call for a lot of people.
00:30:40.330 --> 00:30:52.837
Nowadays isn't easy because they're not comfortable because, the way I look at it, my generation was comfortable with phone calls, the generation of the people that I want to serve as far as young families and that type of thing.
00:30:53.011 --> 00:30:59.771
they have different priorities and the texting and that type of stuff is what has obviously come in fashion, which makes me sound old.
00:30:59.771 --> 00:31:01.497
But I said, Come in fashion,
00:31:01.936 --> 00:31:02.156
but
00:31:02.346 --> 00:31:04.606
you know, generationally it's different.
00:31:04.626 --> 00:31:11.886
And I think we need to realize that that marketing has changed style of business has changed and we can embrace it.
00:31:11.896 --> 00:31:18.557
We can still run profitable businesses, but we don't have to keep trying to put people into a box that a lot of people don't want to be put into.
00:31:19.517 --> 00:31:21.777
So, that's how I do my phone calls.
00:31:22.156 --> 00:31:25.696
And if I can get them on the phone ahead of time, I love it.
00:31:26.076 --> 00:31:31.527
I love talking to people on the phone, but I also have a lot of experience doing it and I know what I need to ask.
00:31:31.537 --> 00:31:36.626
So I actually have a questionnaire that I send people and ask them to fill out.
00:31:37.116 --> 00:31:46.767
And, when I do, if they call me, see if I get a phone inquiry, which happens maybe twice a year, I pull out that questionnaire and I go through the questionnaire on the phone.
00:31:46.767 --> 00:31:50.287
So I have all my talking points of what I need to know for my client.
00:31:50.777 --> 00:32:02.676
And then if I'm having this phone conversation after the booking, Then it's much shorter, but I still go over some of those highlighted points, getting to know their kids a little better and talking about logistics of the session, but it's shorter and it's more concise.
00:32:03.114 --> 00:32:14.023
So where you put that phone call is, important, but I do think that in order for you to have that connection and my whole thing is they're hiring me to do a job.
00:32:14.406 --> 00:32:19.836
I can only do the best job for them if I have the certain amount of information.
00:32:20.781 --> 00:32:26.442
And part of that information is knowing a little bit more about the style of the person who has hired me.
00:32:26.690 --> 00:32:27.889
like what's important to them?
00:32:28.309 --> 00:32:36.569
The timeliness of the session, how quickly I get it done because their husband doesn't want to be there and has been giving him grief, giving her grief about it for two weeks.
00:32:36.940 --> 00:32:40.480
And all she's going to hear on the way there is him complaining the whole time.
00:32:40.869 --> 00:32:44.180
So I need to work quickly so that, that reflects well on her.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:51.886
Is it, Someone who really just wants me to keep shooting until I get a certain amount of picture like finding out those personality styles.
00:32:51.886 --> 00:32:53.396
You're not going to find out through email.
00:32:53.836 --> 00:32:57.616
You're not going to find those out any other way except by hopping on the phone.
00:32:57.616 --> 00:33:02.426
So that's why I feel it's important because I want to do a great job for the person who hires me.
00:33:02.670 --> 00:33:03.430
That's what it's all about.
00:33:04.264 --> 00:33:05.795
Yeah, that's wonderful.
00:33:05.795 --> 00:33:16.521
I was recently going through your Instagram and I saw that you made wonderful little reel about sending too much information when somebody first inquires with you.
00:33:16.912 --> 00:33:22.961
So I'm assuming that this questionnaire that you're sending out to get all this information isn't in that first email or am I wrong?
00:33:22.971 --> 00:33:23.271
No,
00:33:23.271 --> 00:33:25.081
it's not in the first email at all.
00:33:25.091 --> 00:33:28.801
In fact, in the first email, the information I may be so bold.
00:33:29.051 --> 00:33:30.321
This is the way I kind of look at it.
00:33:30.341 --> 00:33:32.672
Children grow up wanting to know certain things about life.
00:33:33.101 --> 00:33:33.501
Okay.
00:33:33.851 --> 00:33:47.892
When a five year old asks a certain question about where babies come from, you give them a very specific answer that is narrow in scope and you don't sit down with them for an hour and a half and explain all the processes that go into how babies are made.
00:33:48.557 --> 00:33:48.836
Right?
00:33:49.176 --> 00:33:49.366
Yes.
00:33:49.896 --> 00:33:52.716
So because that's all that five year old needs at that point in time.
00:33:52.966 --> 00:34:02.356
So I kind of look at it that way when it comes to people who inquire, like they only need and are only asking a very specific narrow set of information of me at this time.
00:34:02.636 --> 00:34:03.986
So that's what I'm going to address.
00:34:04.483 --> 00:34:07.124
And I'm going to do it in the best way possible for me and my studio.
00:34:07.243 --> 00:34:11.023
And then we go to the next step so they get a little more information.
00:34:11.114 --> 00:34:13.804
And then we go to the next step and they get more information.
00:34:14.153 --> 00:34:22.864
But I'm not going to give them all the information when they inquire about what it's like to work with me from beginning all the way to the delivery of services, because that's a long way away.
00:34:22.894 --> 00:34:24.514
They don't need that at that point in time.
00:34:24.664 --> 00:34:29.624
It's just, they want to know basic pricing information, what kind of services I provide, that type of thing.
00:34:29.624 --> 00:34:37.293
So that's what I answer it first, Just because we don't think that it's overwhelming doesn't mean that someone who's not in the business, isn't going to think it's overwhelming.
00:34:37.364 --> 00:34:40.913
an overwhelmed mind doesn't buy an overwhelmed mind doesn't decide.
00:34:41.324 --> 00:34:46.653
So I want to make sure that I'm helping those people, make the best decision, which is of course to hire me.
00:34:47.034 --> 00:34:51.759
Yeah, that's how I, go through that process.
00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:52.009
Yeah.
00:34:52.009 --> 00:34:53.570
You don't want to overwhelm them too much.
00:34:54.235 --> 00:34:56.382
Okay, so let's, break down this inquiry email.
00:34:56.422 --> 00:34:58.201
It's, yes, I'm available.
00:34:58.431 --> 00:34:59.672
Here are my prices.
00:35:00.012 --> 00:35:01.021
Next step.
00:35:01.248 --> 00:35:04.679
Okay, so I don't give out my pricing all the way over the phone.
00:35:04.949 --> 00:35:11.159
The first step literally is my average client spends between 800 for their portrait session.
00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:13.818
obviously you decide what's best for you.
00:35:13.878 --> 00:35:17.498
My average client spends this much and this is what they get for that.
00:35:18.318 --> 00:35:23.208
So my average client spends a certain amount and they get an album and they get their digital files, plus the session time.
00:35:23.808 --> 00:35:25.778
I relay that information.
00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:29.581
I'm not sending them something with 50 different prices listed out.
00:35:30.001 --> 00:35:32.621
Because they're probably not interested in 50 different things.
00:35:32.742 --> 00:35:37.141
They're probably, they want to know at that point in time, basic information.
00:35:37.672 --> 00:35:44.643
And I put on top of that, if there's something in particular or something specific you're looking for, I'm happy to provide that information.
00:35:44.643 --> 00:35:45.413
Just let me know.
00:35:45.523 --> 00:35:46.983
I'm an open book with my clients.
00:35:47.023 --> 00:35:49.353
I just want to throw everything out there.
00:35:49.373 --> 00:35:51.893
Cause like I said, overwhelmed people don't buy, they don't.
00:35:53.134 --> 00:35:56.143
So the first initial emails, thank you so much for contacting me.
00:35:56.143 --> 00:35:57.623
I can't wait to learn more about you.
00:35:57.663 --> 00:36:02.173
And I put it, I turn it around is I'm not the right fit for every client.
00:36:02.744 --> 00:36:05.923
So at that point in time, it's not like, Oh, I can't wait to work for you.
00:36:05.943 --> 00:36:09.193
It's more of like, Hey, thank you for contacting me.
00:36:09.543 --> 00:36:16.543
I would love to learn more about your photography needs and photographing your family to make sure that I'm the right fit for you.
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:23.440
So I'm already putting out there that, Oh, maybe she's won't work with us or maybe she's not the right fit for us.
00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:29.780
Like I'm just, it's psychological way of course, looking at it versus just like jumping to, Oh, I want to work with you so much.
00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:31.030
Here's everything that you need to know.
00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:31.601
Please hire me.
00:36:31.601 --> 00:36:32.201
Please hire me.
00:36:32.641 --> 00:36:33.400
It's like, wait a minute.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.561
There's a step here.
00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:48.777
And on my website, I go through the steps and I liken it to like a, Broadway show release back to the whole singing thing of like, you have your rehearsals, you have your dress rehearsal, you have the night of the performance, and then you have the delivery, which is like the after party.
00:36:49.757 --> 00:36:51.237
So that's all outlined on my website.
00:36:51.637 --> 00:36:52.858
So hopefully they've read that.
00:36:52.858 --> 00:36:54.967
If they haven't read it, I put a link in there to, to the website.
00:36:55.268 --> 00:36:57.097
Send them back to that, to take a look at that.
00:36:57.527 --> 00:37:01.483
I want to give them everything that they need to know and start the conversation.
00:37:01.483 --> 00:37:03.344
So I give them basic pricing information.
00:37:03.733 --> 00:37:08.534
sometimes they tell me when they need to have a session like with newborns, approximately what timeframe.
00:37:08.534 --> 00:37:10.663
So I'll say, yes, I'm available during that time.
00:37:11.083 --> 00:37:14.023
and then I have a questionnaire that I ask them to fill out.
00:37:14.114 --> 00:37:19.994
And with that, if they go to the questionnaire part, then they will get more specific pricing information.
00:37:20.054 --> 00:37:22.153
I'm not gonna make them wait for it.
00:37:22.748 --> 00:37:29.702
But they do need to at least give me an honest idea that they are truly interested in working with me
00:37:30.893 --> 00:37:31.043
when
00:37:31.043 --> 00:37:32.012
it comes to that.
00:37:32.293 --> 00:37:34.322
So it's just one tiny little extra step.
00:37:34.572 --> 00:37:36.222
And then they've already filled out the questionnaire.
00:37:36.222 --> 00:37:37.583
I have the information that I need.
00:37:37.583 --> 00:37:39.489
Then they have their, pricing information.
00:37:39.538 --> 00:37:46.668
Then the next thing is once I send that, Then if I don't receive a response right away, I follow up about a day later and say, Hey, I sent you this information.
00:37:46.668 --> 00:37:47.648
Did you have any questions?
00:37:47.967 --> 00:37:49.998
If you want to hop on a phone call, I'm happy to do that.
00:37:50.018 --> 00:37:51.367
Otherwise, please let me know.
00:37:51.367 --> 00:37:53.347
How can I get assist you in making your decision?
00:37:53.827 --> 00:37:55.538
and just go going from there.
00:37:55.668 --> 00:37:56.297
And then.
00:37:56.603 --> 00:37:59.552
Usually from that, if they want to book, like, Oh, yes, we want to book.
00:37:59.822 --> 00:38:00.922
This sounds great.
00:38:01.003 --> 00:38:03.702
And then I go into my booking process, which was great.
00:38:04.023 --> 00:38:05.722
Here's the agreement that I need you to sign.
00:38:05.733 --> 00:38:07.373
Here's the session deposit.
00:38:07.643 --> 00:38:10.733
I have you on my calendar once this is paid and taken care of.
00:38:11.132 --> 00:38:15.585
we go from there and then they get all the how to prepare for the session and all that information.
00:38:16.065 --> 00:38:19.568
And then, we set up a phone call somewhere in there.
00:38:20.172 --> 00:38:21.382
That was extremely comprehensive.
00:38:21.471 --> 00:38:21.751
Yes.
00:38:21.831 --> 00:38:22.141
Yes.
00:38:22.141 --> 00:38:23.311
It's very comprehensive, right?
00:38:23.592 --> 00:38:28.036
But the thing is is that you cannot assume that your photographers know how you do business.
00:38:28.246 --> 00:38:29.396
Right, right.
00:38:29.898 --> 00:38:31.818
And it sounds overwhelming, but it's not.
00:38:31.829 --> 00:38:32.938
These emails are short.
00:38:33.028 --> 00:38:34.418
The information is brief.
00:38:34.818 --> 00:38:39.858
it's helping them to the next step versus assuming that they know what the next step is.
00:38:41.389 --> 00:38:42.998
First of all, I love that line there.
00:38:43.048 --> 00:38:44.909
How can I assist you in making a decision?
00:38:44.909 --> 00:38:55.105
I think that that is something that, so many new photographers that struggle with follow up and like that, one sentence before that can be like, Hey, Kara, I just want to make sure you saw my last email or whatever.
00:38:55.371 --> 00:38:56.851
How can I assist you in making a decision?
00:38:56.871 --> 00:38:58.181
Like, that's the email right there.
00:38:58.181 --> 00:39:00.552
Like super small, super short, super simple.
00:39:00.621 --> 00:39:03.161
Yeah, it is not before we move forward.
00:39:03.161 --> 00:39:06.592
I just want to make sure what is call to action in that first email?
00:39:06.592 --> 00:39:07.751
Is it to call you?
00:39:07.782 --> 00:39:10.572
Is it to just simply reply to the email?
00:39:10.632 --> 00:39:11.471
What is it that you say?
00:39:11.471 --> 00:39:11.681
It's a
00:39:11.711 --> 00:39:12.271
reply.
00:39:12.382 --> 00:39:13.641
It's a simple reply.
00:39:14.001 --> 00:39:14.481
Um, yeah.
00:39:14.896 --> 00:39:23.815
In almost all my emails, I put my phone number and not in every email, but I let them know that I am available to talk on the phone.
00:39:24.226 --> 00:39:24.476
Uh huh.
00:39:24.855 --> 00:39:27.536
Not because I want to talk on the phone every step of the way.
00:39:27.715 --> 00:39:28.516
That's not it.
00:39:28.565 --> 00:39:31.882
But it's just a, way of communicating me being open to them.
00:39:32.572 --> 00:39:39.961
And, I also let it know, be known that, sometimes having a conversation, I can do an email.
00:39:40.632 --> 00:39:43.141
And I have to wait to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
00:39:43.471 --> 00:39:54.237
Well, that could take up to 45 minutes of my time, where I can have a five minute phone conversation to answer all their questions that they thought they had, plus questions that they didn't know they had, in five minutes and be done with it.
00:39:54.686 --> 00:39:55.146
Yeah.
00:39:55.666 --> 00:39:56.286
Wonderful.
00:39:56.331 --> 00:39:57.032
Oh my gosh.
00:39:57.132 --> 00:40:06.072
it's one of those things again, like I was saying, if you get into photography to take photos, the whole business side can be very, you know, it can be very uncertain.
00:40:06.081 --> 00:40:07.382
You're not sure what to do.
00:40:07.402 --> 00:40:11.391
You feel like you have to be very professional, but then you're told to be very personal.
00:40:11.681 --> 00:40:16.021
so the way that you broke down, I mean, that whole inquiry process, I'm Exactly what to say.
00:40:16.262 --> 00:40:20.262
and, laid out I guess the flow chart, you could say, I know it's going to help a lot of photographers.
00:40:20.271 --> 00:40:31.934
So, I want to thank you for that, but of course want to move on now and ask about, learning to trust yourself when it comes to the artistic side of photography?
00:40:31.965 --> 00:40:38.425
Because again, we live in a world with Pinterest, we live in a world with Instagram and photos can get millions of likes.
00:40:38.425 --> 00:40:43.217
And then we look at our work and it gets three and you know, it can be very, discouraging.
00:40:43.507 --> 00:40:48.771
So how do we learn to trust ourselves and our instincts when it comes to creating our art?
00:40:49.130 --> 00:40:52.288
I think that this can be done several different ways.
00:40:52.317 --> 00:40:54.518
And for me, it's happened in a combination of ways.
00:40:55.038 --> 00:41:01.114
one is I learned the technical aspects of what a good photograph is.
00:41:01.684 --> 00:41:32.474
I'll sit like PPA does these image competitions and then they, post the judging online and you can sit all day and watch them go through image after image after image after image and you can see the ratings that it's given and they do this on a regional level and they also do this on a national level so if learning how to do this is something that's important to someone they can hook up with the professional photographers association of america ppa and get information about image competitions so another thing that you can do and this is not this is not my specialty i do not like it.
00:41:32.974 --> 00:41:43.344
Entering image competitions is not my thing, but if someone really wants that good feedback from people who have been in the business for a long time, they can join image competitions.
00:41:43.585 --> 00:41:47.967
And if your images start getting good ratings, that can bring your confidence up.
00:41:48.012 --> 00:41:49.322
And
00:41:49.322 --> 00:41:51.875
that's what it comes down to is being able to trust yourself.
00:41:52.184 --> 00:42:02.144
Well, sometimes just saying you're good enough, we're sensitive, creative creatures, you know, we're sensitive photographers and, and we have sensitive egos and all that type of stuff.
00:42:02.144 --> 00:42:03.394
We want everyone to love our art.
00:42:03.454 --> 00:42:17.197
So sometimes enter an image competition, get some tough love your first couple of times, and then you'll start to see your ratings go up and you can know in the back of your head, okay, I can do this because I've been given these critiques and I know what I'm talking about.
00:42:17.847 --> 00:42:25.137
I think going and getting good education and how to shoot, from people who have been doing it for a long time.
00:42:25.518 --> 00:42:28.817
I think is also really good and getting feedback on those images.
00:42:28.998 --> 00:42:31.998
I personally don't think that most critique.
00:42:32.259 --> 00:42:44.039
like critique groups and that kind of stuff on Facebook are really gonna get people where you need to be, because that's not where the really great image, critiquers or ju jurors are hanging out.
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:45.119
they're running studios.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:46.650
They're not hanging out on social media.
00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:53.101
members are, there's a few out there, but I say go meet people in the industry.
00:42:53.510 --> 00:42:57.371
And I hate to keep bringing up PPA, but PPA is a great way to do that.
00:42:57.471 --> 00:43:01.951
they do these super one day classes, one day workshops, I think they're called now.
00:43:02.451 --> 00:43:04.070
And they have them all over the country.
00:43:04.090 --> 00:43:05.141
And you can sign up for them.
00:43:05.141 --> 00:43:10.141
And I sign up from every year, even if the subject is something that I'm not particularly interested about.
00:43:10.730 --> 00:43:10.891
But
00:43:10.891 --> 00:43:12.650
it's one day, it's 99.
00:43:13.146 --> 00:43:30.235
You go in and you meet a lot of established photographers who've been doing this a long time, get to know them, make friends with them, ask them if you go to a workshop during lunch, bring some portfolio work and say, Hey, what do you think of this and get really educated feedback on what you're producing.
00:43:30.625 --> 00:43:38.355
So being educated and getting that feedback I think is one really, really important way for people to get the confidence that they need.
00:43:38.659 --> 00:43:39.670
To move forward.
00:43:40.289 --> 00:43:44.025
And then I get a lot of confidence and.
00:43:44.394 --> 00:43:47.804
trusting in myself from the feedback that I get from my clients.
00:43:47.875 --> 00:43:49.134
Like, how do I trust myself?
00:43:49.304 --> 00:44:02.384
I hear it from my clients all the time when I'm sitting with them or I'm on the phone with them and we're looking at their images or I show them the back of my camera during a session and I, show them something that I've tried and they agree that it's great.
00:44:02.764 --> 00:44:12.175
And not just because it's someone that they love in the picture, but because I've created something that's beautiful with the lighting and everything, getting that is a way that I can.
00:44:12.382 --> 00:44:24.422
feed my tender, creative soul with the positive feedback that I need and also learn to trust myself more because you need that feedback to be able to grow in the trust that you have in yourself.
00:44:24.882 --> 00:44:27.333
And then you start doing stuff that's different.
00:44:27.938 --> 00:44:31.438
And you see how it's received and you can see how it's received by your clients.
00:44:31.697 --> 00:44:33.597
You can see how it's received in social media.
00:44:33.867 --> 00:44:40.257
You can see if when you post something in your portfolio, someone calls you and says, I want images that look like that.
00:44:40.688 --> 00:44:41.047
Yeah.
00:44:41.277 --> 00:44:43.057
Then you know, you're onto something.
00:44:43.438 --> 00:44:51.141
And the session that I did with the family, with the grandparents that I spoke about earlier, the reason she called me specifically, and she was a phone inquiry.
00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:54.880
She called me specifically was because she saw a session that I did.
00:44:55.331 --> 00:44:56.971
that was very different from my normal.
00:44:56.980 --> 00:45:01.000
it was not an outside fall foliage picture or whatever.
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:01.780
It's very different.
00:45:02.221 --> 00:45:04.380
She saw what I did for another family.
00:45:04.380 --> 00:45:06.530
She's like, I want images that look like that.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.030
I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm onto something here.
00:45:09.690 --> 00:45:11.971
If people are specifically asking for that.
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:17.527
So you want to get feedback to help Build that kind of bottom layer of things.
00:45:17.557 --> 00:45:20.967
And then once you get to, you get feedback and you realize, okay, yeah, I do have an eye for this.
00:45:20.967 --> 00:45:25.317
People do like what I'm putting out and you start to trust your equipment and you play with your equipment.
00:45:25.327 --> 00:45:27.148
So you know what it can do and what it can't do.
00:45:27.677 --> 00:45:33.958
All of that starts to kind of the snowball effect of being able to trust yourself and what you're putting out into the world.
00:45:33.958 --> 00:45:41.300
And also know that sometimes stuff you put out into the world isn't necessarily going to fly and that's okay too.
00:45:41.512 --> 00:45:51.726
but realizing that you have the education and the knowledge and everything underneath it to promote, to build the art that you want to build is something that I think really, really helps creatives do that.
00:45:51.746 --> 00:46:03.639
And a lot of new photographers haven't had the time yet to delve into that, or they haven't given themselves permission to fail at things because they want to be right and have it be perfect right away.
00:46:04.219 --> 00:46:04.659
Right.
00:46:05.105 --> 00:46:11.097
To start getting that feedback so that you kind of have that cushion of knowing yeah, know what I'm doing here I can do this.
00:46:11.677 --> 00:46:25.902
Yeah, What you touched upon there right there at the end is really important because I think probably both you and I, we could show somebody one of our photos and regardless of what they say, it's not going to change the way that we shoot or do much, right?
00:46:25.922 --> 00:46:30.233
Unless we know that they're respected and esteemed member of the photography community.
00:46:30.793 --> 00:46:42.643
But I do often see a lot of new photographers come into the beginner photography podcast Facebook community, who have been maybe in it for a week, they will ask for feedback on an image right away.
00:46:43.063 --> 00:46:44.942
They're still in that experimental phase, right?
00:46:44.942 --> 00:46:58.072
They're still just trying to learn how to use their camera and not at the point to where they know enough about their camera to be able to capture what they see in their head, to then be able to ask for feedback, to then be able to apply that into their work, you know?
00:46:58.643 --> 00:47:00.503
yeah, I really think that's going to help.
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:01.889
Those are the hardest.
00:47:02.356 --> 00:47:03.157
Critiques to give.
00:47:03.157 --> 00:47:05.427
Critiques on social media to give.
00:47:06.186 --> 00:47:11.112
And when I see them, I always want to encourage them.
00:47:11.492 --> 00:47:12.021
Yes.
00:47:12.112 --> 00:47:19.228
Because congratulations, you were brave and being brave is part of being in this industry and being in this business.
00:47:19.327 --> 00:47:20.317
Like you gotta be brave.
00:47:20.327 --> 00:47:21.288
You gotta put it out there.
00:47:21.737 --> 00:47:29.074
But knowing then in the back that they're just, depending on what group it's in, they're just going to get crucified.
00:47:29.514 --> 00:47:29.994
Right.
00:47:30.105 --> 00:47:30.244
Right.
00:47:30.324 --> 00:47:33.375
And my lone encouraging voice.
00:47:33.777 --> 00:47:39.337
Is probably not going to drown out everyone else who tells them that they're horrible and like, why do they even have a camera?
00:47:39.628 --> 00:47:41.597
And no wonder your client complained about this.
00:47:41.597 --> 00:47:43.398
Like, this isn't worthy of anything.
00:47:44.057 --> 00:47:47.148
I'm just like, okay, can we do this in a way that doesn't crush their spirit?
00:47:47.557 --> 00:47:47.827
Yeah.
00:47:47.837 --> 00:47:51.387
Because they're trying and you want to give people, credit for that.
00:47:51.418 --> 00:47:53.768
like I said, we all started there.
00:47:53.817 --> 00:47:54.668
We all did it.
00:47:54.708 --> 00:48:00.217
We all had the horrible session with the bad lighting and the twins and the whole bit when we first started.
00:48:00.657 --> 00:48:01.918
And we didn't know what to do with it.
00:48:02.297 --> 00:48:03.478
But good for them for showing up.
00:48:04.188 --> 00:48:05.027
Exactly.
00:48:05.077 --> 00:48:05.567
Yes.
00:48:05.657 --> 00:48:15.672
So, For you, when you first started, How long do you think you need to be shooting before you should really start to consider others feedback.
00:48:16.041 --> 00:48:24.994
I think other people's feedback is good to consider immediately as long as you keep in perspective where that feedback is coming from.
00:48:25.855 --> 00:48:38.420
That's the biggest thing, I think, especially in this age of social media and specifically Facebook groups where people will post up an image and you have 100 people replying, but you don't know their background.
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.670
You don't know how good they are, what they do, how long they've been doing, what they do.
00:48:42.889 --> 00:48:44.989
You don't know if their opinion is really worth anything.
00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:53.630
So I think you have to remember that, like going back to the PPA competitions, you know, the people who are looking at those images are seasoned photographers.
00:48:53.630 --> 00:48:55.019
They've gone through training.
00:48:55.309 --> 00:48:58.949
They have what standards of photography are now granted.
00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:04.179
PPA competitions are kind of boring, but they've satisfied.
00:49:04.442 --> 00:49:08.692
The basic idea of what is considered a good photograph.
00:49:09.161 --> 00:49:25.251
So then you can take that and you can creatively spin it in your work and do something that's more creative, but you have to take into consideration where the advice is coming from and the attitude in which it's coming from, because a lot of people just live out there to tear other people down.
00:49:26.061 --> 00:49:30.525
And a lot of people don't realize this, but if you're brave enough to put something out there.
00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:40.389
That in and of itself is a huge accomplishment, but to be able to take feedback like that and be able to weed through it and see what's good and what's bad.
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:44.579
So I don't think you have to have been in business for any certain amount of time to put it out there.
00:49:44.590 --> 00:49:55.282
If I've probably sooner, sooner is better, but just realize where the feedback, who you're asking for feedback from and keep it all in perspective and know that everybody started somewhere.
00:49:55.302 --> 00:50:04.782
And it's the same thing is when we're talking about business, when people say like, you ask your friends and family about your pricing structure and they say, Oh, well, I would never pay that much for photography.
00:50:05.032 --> 00:50:07.271
Or I would never, you're never going to be in business very long.
00:50:07.271 --> 00:50:13.692
If you charge those high prices, the first thing that I always say, which always sounds a little bit harsh is I'm like, Oh, your uncle said that.
00:50:13.782 --> 00:50:14.141
It's like, yeah.
00:50:14.451 --> 00:50:16.447
How's your uncle's photography business doing?
00:50:17.507 --> 00:50:17.617
Yeah.
00:50:17.617 --> 00:50:18.016
Yeah.
00:50:18.067 --> 00:50:20.786
Let's figure out who it is that we're who, where's this coming from?
00:50:21.067 --> 00:50:22.277
Is he an entrepreneur?
00:50:22.277 --> 00:50:26.630
Does he know how much it is to stay in business and to start a business and run a profitable business?
00:50:26.661 --> 00:50:30.371
Or does he just go to work for someone every day and collect a paycheck?
00:50:31.110 --> 00:50:34.170
Because that's a very different perspective of things.
00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:39.971
So keeping all of that in mind, I think is super important for people who are wanting to get into the business.
00:50:40.485 --> 00:50:49.536
it's funny, I've had that conversation with my wife, my own wife, many a times, where she's like, I would never pay that much for photography.
00:50:49.655 --> 00:50:51.255
And it's like, I totally understand.
00:50:51.306 --> 00:50:53.815
And yet at the same time, calendar's booked.
00:50:53.925 --> 00:50:56.076
So it's like, there's a disconnect there.
00:50:56.085 --> 00:51:04.271
Some people, you know, photography different than others, and maybe she's just been spoiled because I'm just always here taking pictures.
00:51:04.271 --> 00:51:05.440
And you're the pre hired
00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:05.771
hand.
00:51:05.771 --> 00:51:06.500
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:07.070
Exactly.
00:51:07.391 --> 00:51:07.510
You
00:51:07.510 --> 00:51:16.547
know, but it's good because, as I trust my wife, love her and I take everything that she says into consideration.
00:51:16.677 --> 00:51:32.523
Yeah, and it's still, being honest with yourself and trying to figure out like, well, I know that this is working because I've tried it with others, or, I can do a quick Google search and see that there's, Ten other photographers in Indianapolis charging 10, 000 for weddings.
00:51:32.672 --> 00:51:32.893
Yes.
00:51:32.902 --> 00:51:37.083
So clearly there's a market for it and then just trust yourself And go for it.
00:51:37.092 --> 00:51:37.873
So that was wonderful.
00:51:37.882 --> 00:51:38.362
Thank you.
00:51:38.483 --> 00:51:38.833
Thank you.
00:51:38.853 --> 00:51:46.353
Well Dory we are at the end of our time here Yeah, I feel like we could talk about this all day.
00:51:46.353 --> 00:51:55.646
This has been a wonderful conversation to have Before I let you go, can you let listeners know where they can find you online and discover more about you?
00:51:55.916 --> 00:51:56.255
Sure.
00:51:56.576 --> 00:52:04.105
You can find me on Instagram and the handle there is the Dori Howell and it's D O R I E H O W E L L.
00:52:04.465 --> 00:52:07.288
And my portrait website is dorihowell.
00:52:07.288 --> 00:52:07.697
com.
00:52:08.067 --> 00:52:10.827
And then for photographers, I have some really great resources.
00:52:10.837 --> 00:52:15.538
You can get some free stuff for all about teaching business and growing your business.
00:52:15.907 --> 00:52:17.697
And that's at harmonyhangout.
00:52:18.148 --> 00:52:18.807
com.
00:52:19.304 --> 00:52:22.634
And all of those things are linked all throughout the place.
00:52:22.644 --> 00:52:26.474
So you can find one through the other, but, I do a lot of posting on Instagram.
00:52:26.485 --> 00:52:27.585
I'm loving reels.
00:52:27.585 --> 00:52:34.965
I'm getting ready to go film another reel on my suit on my series called the struggling photographers hotline, which is super fun.
00:52:35.355 --> 00:52:37.144
So that'll be posted later today, but yeah.
00:52:37.195 --> 00:52:39.340
So Instagram, the Dorie Howell and then hangout.
00:52:39.340 --> 00:52:40.092
com.
00:52:41.163 --> 00:52:43.293
I'm going to put links to all those things in the show notes.
00:52:43.932 --> 00:52:47.222
Dory, again, thank you so much for coming on, sharing everything that you did.
00:52:47.262 --> 00:52:49.192
I really look forward to keeping up with you in the future.
00:52:49.452 --> 00:52:49.733
Great.
00:52:49.773 --> 00:52:50.952
Raymond, thank you so much.
00:52:51.969 --> 00:52:54.710
!All right, let's go ahead and recap what we have learned today.
00:52:54.969 --> 00:52:56.179
Number one, practice.
00:52:56.449 --> 00:53:05.279
if you want to build any real technical skills in photography, that requires continuous practice and a willingness to make and learn from mistakes.
00:53:05.659 --> 00:53:12.860
So, start by experimenting with different lighting conditions, you know, if, morning, afternoon, evening, all different lighting conditions outside.
00:53:13.110 --> 00:53:18.014
And then test out different camera settings with your camera, to figure out how to best capture it.
00:53:18.355 --> 00:53:21.295
Number two, understand your client needs.
00:53:21.675 --> 00:53:36.014
If you want to create authentic, emotional, images that resonate right with your clients, that requires, an understanding of your clients and respecting their personal preferences and again, cultural backgrounds.
00:53:36.295 --> 00:53:39.715
So try to implement a questionnaire, if you're shooting portraits, right?
00:53:39.715 --> 00:53:42.704
Try to gather detailed information about your clients.
00:53:42.715 --> 00:53:48.822
One thing that I would always ask is, are you two comfortable with displaying your affection, for each other in public?
00:53:49.052 --> 00:53:50.181
You know, kissing in public.
00:53:50.567 --> 00:54:00.617
Something like that would determine whether or not we're going to have a session, downtown where it might be busy, or if we're just going to do their engagement session at a local park where there might be less people.
00:54:01.177 --> 00:54:04.117
And lastly, adapt your business approach.
00:54:04.467 --> 00:54:10.782
If you want to stay relevant, that means adapting to, different client preferences and then.
00:54:11.076 --> 00:54:13.666
From there, trying to simplify your business process.
00:54:13.666 --> 00:54:20.306
Because if you want to have a standup business, you have to be able to cater to your client.
00:54:20.527 --> 00:54:28.940
And if you have a range of clients, the better that you can cater to them while still staying true to your business, the better off you are going to be.
00:54:29.250 --> 00:54:31.719
So try to keep that initial client communication.
00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:41.445
rather concise, and short because I'll tell you what, overwhelming them in that first initial email is one of the quickest ways to get ghosted real, real quick.
00:54:41.534 --> 00:54:43.134
So, that's all that I got.
00:54:43.164 --> 00:54:50.795
I want to hear your biggest takeaway in the free and amazing beginner photography podcast community, which you can join right now over at beginner photopod.
00:54:50.795 --> 00:54:52.695
com forward slash group.
00:54:53.315 --> 00:54:55.074
Again, that is it for today until next week.
00:54:55.074 --> 00:54:59.154
Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow.
00:54:59.525 --> 00:54:59.934
Talk soon.
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:15.009
That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait, but to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him just the tiniest little bit.
00:00:15.369 --> 00:00:17.510
To show that they were connected in some way.
00:00:17.929 --> 00:00:19.539
That's a picture that went on the wall.
00:00:21.957 --> 00:00:24.158
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast.
00:00:24.178 --> 00:00:25.367
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield.
00:00:25.367 --> 00:00:34.118
And each week I interview, one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same.
00:00:34.557 --> 00:00:45.287
In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with family portrait photographer, Dori Howell, about creating emotional connections with your subjects and building a sustainable photography business.
00:00:45.868 --> 00:00:49.508
But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot.
00:00:49.917 --> 00:00:53.787
Cloudspot has everything that you need to build a thriving photography business.
00:00:54.097 --> 00:01:01.478
You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow in just one simple platform.
00:01:01.682 --> 00:01:04.236
Grab your free forever account today over at deliverphotos.
00:01:04.486 --> 00:01:07.816
com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready.
00:01:08.242 --> 00:01:13.231
I can tell you from experience that finding your footing when starting a photography business can be pretty overwhelming.
00:01:13.561 --> 00:01:19.402
There's the technical, there's the emotional, and then there's business challenges that you have to face as well.
00:01:19.402 --> 00:01:27.762
And at times, personally, I would find myself struggling to connect with my subjects in a way that they deserved, because maybe I'd be thinking about all the business stuff.
00:01:28.061 --> 00:01:36.742
Or, on the flip side of that coin, when the business was struggling, I didn't necessarily know exactly, how to fix it because, I wasn't skilled in business.
00:01:36.822 --> 00:01:47.311
So today's guest, Dori Howell, she's going to share from her journey of discovering that power of creating meaningful moments in her photography, why that's so important and why she found it.
00:01:47.432 --> 00:01:51.492
focuses on that, as well as learning from your mistakes.
00:01:51.492 --> 00:02:20.062
You know, as I said, we make mistakes when you don't know what's going on in business, it's hard to know what you need to do, but you know, when you make a mistake, and she'll also share obviously how to adapt to client needs so that you can do the same, In today's episode with Dory Howell, you will learn the importance of emotional connection in portrait photography, how to evolve your business practices to an ever changing, business climate and how to build confidence and skill through practice and feedback.
00:02:20.362 --> 00:02:21.643
We talk about it all, honestly.
00:02:21.643 --> 00:02:26.582
So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's Rewind interview with Dory Howell.
00:02:27.972 --> 00:02:29.731
Dory, I really want to keep this simple.
00:02:29.820 --> 00:02:34.300
When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?
00:02:34.623 --> 00:02:34.813
whew.
00:02:35.128 --> 00:02:41.229
I can narrow it down to, I don't remember the day and time, but I remember the image that I took.
00:02:41.889 --> 00:02:52.451
I was a new mom at the time, and my husband, Now I'm going to date myself here and say this is before cell phones had cameras and were used for almost everything else except for actually calling people.
00:02:52.852 --> 00:03:03.479
But, I took a picture of my daughter standing in our front entryway, leaning against like the transom windows and just the way the light hit her.
00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:05.664
It was more of a silhouette, that type of thing.
00:03:05.664 --> 00:03:13.367
And I snapped it and it's still to this date one of my favorite pictures that I've taken of her and, I've named it waiting for daddy.
00:03:13.777 --> 00:03:21.051
And it was at that point in time, I would say probably 12 years ago, I decided like my heart just sang when I took that picture.
00:03:21.592 --> 00:03:22.957
And that was, a changing point.
00:03:23.437 --> 00:03:29.397
I just dove feet first into everything, photography, how to learn my gear, how to.
00:03:30.377 --> 00:03:33.277
I didn't even know that there were raw photos at that point in time.
00:03:33.358 --> 00:03:37.098
I knew nothing at that point in time and I just, went for it.
00:03:37.638 --> 00:03:38.127
100%.
00:03:38.537 --> 00:03:40.266
So before this, what were you doing?
00:03:40.276 --> 00:03:44.197
Did you have any sort of creative, aspirations before that?
00:03:44.197 --> 00:03:47.866
Or did that photo like completely transform your life?
00:03:48.127 --> 00:03:50.637
I was in school for vocal performance.
00:03:51.127 --> 00:03:54.033
Oh, so yes, that photo completely transformed your life.
00:03:54.033 --> 00:03:54.491
Yeah.
00:03:54.491 --> 00:04:00.306
At that point in time, I had been running a, private voice studio teaching people how to sing.
00:04:00.697 --> 00:04:09.197
I'd been doing that for about five years and, I was in school to complete my vocal performance degree because it was just something that I needed to cross off the list.
00:04:09.646 --> 00:04:10.467
I'm a singer.
00:04:10.507 --> 00:04:12.507
I started singing when I was five years old.
00:04:12.556 --> 00:04:16.987
I've always been a singer, and so I had always had something very creative.
00:04:17.016 --> 00:04:21.317
And my parents, my mom was creative and we were always involved in something, creative.
00:04:21.677 --> 00:04:24.557
And so singing was my outlet.
00:04:24.607 --> 00:04:25.956
That's what got me through school.
00:04:25.956 --> 00:04:26.997
That's all of those things.
00:04:26.997 --> 00:04:28.487
I traveled the world with my voice.
00:04:28.536 --> 00:04:32.317
And, once I had my child, I could see living in the Washington, D.
00:04:32.317 --> 00:04:32.516
C.
00:04:32.526 --> 00:04:35.737
area that I wasn't necessarily going to make any money with my voice.
00:04:36.107 --> 00:04:41.826
I could enjoy my voice, but running a studio or that type of thing was not going to get me financially where I wanted to be.
00:04:41.877 --> 00:04:50.666
And I think a lot, this is something that a lot of singers and a lot of creatives can really, really, empathize with like, yeah, you want to do it, but how do you make money doing it?
00:04:50.916 --> 00:04:53.127
And I come from a very entrepreneurial background.
00:04:53.127 --> 00:04:54.336
My dad owned his own business.
00:04:54.336 --> 00:04:55.607
My mom worked in the business.
00:04:55.723 --> 00:04:57.673
Very entrepreneurial in spirit.
00:04:57.684 --> 00:05:00.694
And I knew that, I needed to make some cash.
00:05:00.764 --> 00:05:02.384
That's where it all came down to.
00:05:02.754 --> 00:05:06.603
So when photography came in, I started taking pictures of my child.
00:05:06.624 --> 00:05:09.774
And then I think it's the same story that a lot of other.
00:05:09.949 --> 00:05:13.670
I'll just stereotype it and say a lot of other young moms get into this.
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:17.149
They have a child, they start taking pictures and then they realize, oh, there's an art to this.
00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:18.620
There's an art to the posing.
00:05:18.620 --> 00:05:20.050
There's an art to the light placement.
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.709
There's ways that I can do this to make it more beautiful.
00:05:22.709 --> 00:05:25.839
And then people start to notice and then they ask them to take pictures.
00:05:25.870 --> 00:05:31.459
And then all of a sudden you have a little side hustle going and you realize that you want to make it more.
00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:32.740
And that's where I was.
00:05:33.047 --> 00:05:33.997
That's how it all started.
00:05:34.507 --> 00:05:40.557
So then in the beginning, let's go back to that photo that you took of your daughter waiting for daddy.
00:05:41.067 --> 00:05:44.257
You think to yourself, Oh my gosh, I can make this happen.
00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:45.100
I love this photo.
00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.471
I want to go at this full time.
00:05:46.891 --> 00:05:47.571
At that point.
00:05:47.788 --> 00:05:54.834
I'm assuming that you were just shooting an auto like where when did the technical side of photography come in for you?
00:05:55.182 --> 00:05:56.132
Well, you're right.
00:05:56.202 --> 00:05:57.603
I was just shooting in auto.
00:05:57.952 --> 00:06:01.093
So I had another friend who was a photographer as well.
00:06:01.093 --> 00:06:03.963
And I called her up and I said, Hey, can you give me a few guidelines?
00:06:03.963 --> 00:06:05.483
Can you kind of point me in the right direction?
00:06:05.882 --> 00:06:11.163
This was before Facebook, even Facebook was just starting, like literally just starting.
00:06:11.533 --> 00:06:16.052
I think I created my Facebook account maybe two months before my daughter was born.
00:06:16.533 --> 00:06:19.572
And, she said, yeah, there's these online forums.
00:06:19.892 --> 00:06:21.762
You should go to, you should go to check out this.
00:06:22.187 --> 00:06:27.228
ILP and check it out and you can get a lot of information.
00:06:27.637 --> 00:06:28.538
And that's what I did.
00:06:28.538 --> 00:06:32.427
I just dove in and I realized, okay, I need to learn my camera setting.
00:06:32.427 --> 00:06:39.788
So I bought, Brian Peterson's understanding exposure, which talked about the triangle ISO, shutter speed.
00:06:40.187 --> 00:06:41.767
aperture, those types of things.
00:06:41.767 --> 00:06:43.548
I learned how that triangle worked.
00:06:43.908 --> 00:06:45.677
And then, I just practiced.
00:06:45.937 --> 00:06:48.317
I practiced and I practiced and I practiced.
00:06:48.908 --> 00:07:03.317
And then I got into the, whole post processing side and played with actions for a little bit that really didn't suit what I wanted to do because I wanted my images to be really clean and not look impacted by any sort of post processing.
00:07:03.757 --> 00:07:06.668
So I just, played and I practice and I played and I practice.
00:07:06.668 --> 00:07:21.134
And I was a very, very keen observer to what people were saying in these forums, even though I wasn't a wedding photographer, I would go and wedding threads and find out what they were talking about as far as lighting goes or posing or those types of things.
00:07:21.173 --> 00:07:25.134
And then I just practiced that really was it.
00:07:25.153 --> 00:07:33.213
we'd be watching TV and I'd be sitting, playing with my camera to make sure that I could change all the settings without having to look at it.
00:07:33.571 --> 00:07:36.151
And I would do that for hours, just sit and play with the settings.
00:07:36.487 --> 00:07:38.718
And go outside and do the exercises.
00:07:38.718 --> 00:07:41.557
Okay, so what does my picture look like if I do a f stop of 2.
00:07:41.588 --> 00:07:41.778
8?
00:07:42.067 --> 00:07:43.923
What does it look like if I stop it down?
00:07:43.923 --> 00:07:44.973
What if I do it even more?
00:07:44.973 --> 00:07:46.413
How does that impact my images?
00:07:46.774 --> 00:07:51.524
And then I could go back and decide, okay, well, when I have someone in front of my camera, I can't go down to 2.
00:07:51.574 --> 00:07:51.694
8.
00:07:51.744 --> 00:07:53.497
I need to go up, or down.
00:07:53.783 --> 00:08:03.302
However, you look at it when you're thinking about after all those different things, I really just dove in and practice was my biggest friend and I wasn't scared.
00:08:03.302 --> 00:08:13.137
And I think going back to my previous life as a singer where you're used to making mistakes in front of people where you have to be comfortable putting yourself all out there.
00:08:13.418 --> 00:08:17.817
I'm totally comfortable making a mistake and taking a bad picture and realizing, okay, well that didn't work.
00:08:17.827 --> 00:08:19.028
Let's try it a different way.
00:08:19.588 --> 00:08:31.103
and that whole trial and error aspect of just my personality, I think served myself very well when it came to photographer and to photography and being able to dive in and just see what worked and what didn't.
00:08:31.605 --> 00:08:37.535
Yeah, I think, figuring out that whole thing of like, what doesn't work here when you see those photos?
00:08:37.535 --> 00:08:38.686
What doesn't work here?
00:08:38.916 --> 00:08:39.745
That's a big thing.
00:08:39.745 --> 00:08:42.613
So for you to be able to tell yourself that's totally okay.
00:08:42.613 --> 00:08:45.092
Now I just have to figure out what it is and move forward.
00:08:45.493 --> 00:08:50.841
So where you're at now with the technical skills and abilities, to be able to capture, beautiful images.
00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:56.100
If you go back and you look at those first images, what were those mistakes that you were making?
00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:59.953
Or what did you have a hard time to get a grasp on when it came to photography?
00:09:33.403 --> 00:09:37.473
Well, I think because I thought photographing newborn babies would be easy.
00:09:37.894 --> 00:09:38.533
I thought, what do they do?
00:09:38.593 --> 00:09:39.254
They just lie there.
00:09:39.343 --> 00:09:39.853
It's easy.
00:09:39.853 --> 00:09:40.543
It's no big deal.
00:09:41.233 --> 00:09:45.397
Um, and so my first newborn session, talk about just not.
00:09:45.692 --> 00:09:48.413
Being clueless was newborn twins,
00:09:48.836 --> 00:09:49.795
twins,
00:09:49.895 --> 00:09:54.695
and I had no experience with flashes yet, no OCF experience or anything like that.
00:09:55.155 --> 00:09:55.735
Twins.
00:09:56.271 --> 00:10:00.421
And, they lived in this tiny little townhouse with really no light.
00:10:00.791 --> 00:10:03.701
So not only was I dealing with the babies.
00:10:04.346 --> 00:10:07.226
And that's just, you know, a whole nother conversation.
00:10:07.636 --> 00:10:16.216
I was dealing with the technical aspect of trying to get enough light into my entry level DSLR that really could not handle bumping the ISO or anything like that.
00:10:16.216 --> 00:10:20.176
Because it was twins, I couldn't stop down to let enough light into the lens.
00:10:20.674 --> 00:10:25.274
So I had a lot of one baby in focus, one baby out of focus, like that type of thing.
00:10:25.274 --> 00:10:26.784
And it was just a disaster.
00:10:26.784 --> 00:10:33.434
And granted, I think something that people forget when we're dealing with clients, we're taking pictures of the people that they love so much.
00:10:33.804 --> 00:10:40.204
So they don't see all those technical mistakes that we make, but, Oh, that, session was a nightmare.
00:10:40.464 --> 00:10:42.954
It was just, From head to toe.
00:10:42.954 --> 00:10:46.534
It was a nightmare, but I learned a lot in the process.
00:10:46.534 --> 00:10:48.504
I learned about babies.
00:10:48.504 --> 00:11:01.664
I learned about, my equipment, what it could handle, what it couldn't handle and lighting and asking clients if I was going to go into their home more questions about where I would be shooting that type of thing, which made a big difference for the next time.
00:11:01.904 --> 00:11:06.204
Cause I didn't have twins the next time, but I certainly didn't have any issues with the equipment or anything like that.
00:11:06.714 --> 00:11:07.924
Because I was better prepared.
00:11:08.201 --> 00:11:08.932
Oh my gosh.
00:11:09.014 --> 00:11:12.570
So, tell me, like, in what ways did your photography evolve after that?
00:11:12.591 --> 00:11:21.616
Obviously, you realized my camera has limitations, lens might have limitations, the amount of light that I show up with, here's a limitation.
00:11:21.616 --> 00:11:24.746
So, in what ways did your photography change, directly following that?
00:11:25.416 --> 00:11:39.572
Well, it didn't change directly following that because I then I wasn't put in that situation again for a very long time, and I think just taking sessions, practicing and realizing it's kind of hard to say.
00:11:39.572 --> 00:11:43.022
Okay, distinctly what changed at that point in time.
00:11:43.423 --> 00:11:50.072
All I know is that I'm an evolving photographer, and every session I do, I strive to be better because that's my personality.
00:11:50.102 --> 00:11:52.957
I never Sit back and say, I've done this before.
00:11:52.957 --> 00:11:54.187
This is going to a piece of cake.
00:11:54.197 --> 00:11:56.637
I'm just going to try everything like I did it last time.
00:11:57.077 --> 00:11:59.267
I'm constantly striving to be better.
00:11:59.278 --> 00:12:12.701
So I can't say specifically at that point, what I did better, because sometimes it takes a while to absorb what happened, especially in a situation like that, you have to sit back and absorb it and then realize, okay, I need to change this for next time.
00:12:12.721 --> 00:12:14.062
I need to change this for next time.
00:12:14.461 --> 00:12:15.711
But a true, true.
00:12:16.216 --> 00:12:24.016
Business and game changing event for me was when I finally embraced off camera flash and studio photography.
00:12:25.106 --> 00:12:25.817
Absolutely.
00:12:25.817 --> 00:12:33.413
Because I can go into any situation now and know that I can get a great image of the people who have hired me to photograph them.
00:12:33.882 --> 00:12:38.722
And it doesn't matter if they show up late and we're in a park, I can still get a great session.
00:12:39.012 --> 00:12:58.179
It doesn't matter if I'm walking into a tiny little townhouse in Georgetown with those Georgetown, in DC, they have these tiny little windows and literally the biggest light source is either a sliding glass door going out to the back door that they have, tables and all sorts of stuff in front of, so it's not really conducive to move or it's the front door with it open.
00:12:58.699 --> 00:13:00.860
And that's really not great for a session either.
00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:01.860
But once I embraced.
00:13:02.495 --> 00:13:09.074
traveling with my lights, getting over the hangup of it was a lot of gear to bring in, or it looked like a lot of gear to me to bring in.
00:13:09.495 --> 00:13:16.440
Once I got past that idea that I didn't need it and accepted that, yes, I need it for my business.
00:13:16.450 --> 00:13:17.091
I need it.
00:13:17.711 --> 00:13:19.160
The game totally changed.
00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:20.870
And
00:13:20.870 --> 00:13:22.370
my lighting setup is very simple.
00:13:22.390 --> 00:13:23.841
It's nothing complicated at all.
00:13:23.841 --> 00:13:24.461
It's one light.
00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:25.221
It's a big umbrella.
00:13:25.660 --> 00:13:26.581
off to the side.
00:13:26.610 --> 00:13:28.020
It's nothing fancy at all.
00:13:28.020 --> 00:13:30.300
But once I embraced that, it totally changed.
00:13:30.668 --> 00:13:32.908
What was it like getting into off camera flash, though?
00:13:32.957 --> 00:13:36.971
Because one thing that I hear from a lot of new photographers is they're scared.
00:13:36.971 --> 00:13:41.670
First of all, they're having a hard enough time just getting a grip on their camera settings themselves.
00:13:41.670 --> 00:13:43.800
And now we want to introduce flash in here.
00:13:43.800 --> 00:13:44.940
So what was that like for you?
00:13:45.314 --> 00:13:46.355
Well, I cheated.
00:13:47.365 --> 00:13:48.534
I'll be totally honest.
00:13:48.875 --> 00:13:49.064
I'm a cheater.
00:13:49.964 --> 00:13:56.924
I bought pro photo lights with TTL so I could just throw it up and worst case scenario, throw it in a manual.
00:13:56.924 --> 00:13:59.200
And I know I'm going to get a good image now.
00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:00.610
Do I do that all the time?
00:14:00.890 --> 00:14:01.250
No.
00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:07.760
In fact, I do it very, very rarely, but to know that I have that technology that.
00:14:08.305 --> 00:14:14.025
can save me and in tough times or in sticky situations is what I need.
00:14:14.195 --> 00:14:25.596
Personally, that's, what gives me the courage to take maybe a little bit of a risk because I know that if I take a few shots and they're just not working, I can be like, okay, hold on a second, click, click, click, click, click.
00:14:25.596 --> 00:14:27.385
And I can get it back to where I need it to be.
00:14:27.385 --> 00:14:32.685
So my pro photo lights are something that I say, you know, I'm going to be married with my buried with my lights.
00:14:32.945 --> 00:14:34.285
I love my lights.
00:14:34.680 --> 00:14:40.130
And I'm not a, spokesperson for them or anything like that, but I did a lot of research on it and that's what I chose.
00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:43.180
So TTL technology was huge for me.
00:14:43.190 --> 00:14:47.260
And then I got to be in situations where I just know my, settings for certain situations.
00:14:47.610 --> 00:14:52.430
I know when I go into a studio that they need to be set my starting point is here.
00:14:52.690 --> 00:14:55.375
And then, adjust it from a certain point.
00:14:55.424 --> 00:15:00.985
It's like with time, like I said, it's just babysits time experience where you start to get to know your equipment.
00:15:00.995 --> 00:15:06.394
You get to know your, most of the situations that you're in, you get to trust yourself a little bit more.
00:15:06.444 --> 00:15:12.034
And then all of a sudden you realize you're doing it seamlessly without even really have to think about it, but it takes a little time to get there.
00:15:12.471 --> 00:15:13.150
That makes sense.
00:15:13.190 --> 00:15:14.750
That's kind of like with everything, though, right?
00:15:14.800 --> 00:15:27.290
I don't know if you feel the same way, but like, there's this misconception, I think, with photography, where because it's so readily available in a phone, or there's just this idea that it's easy, but I think with anything.
00:15:27.290 --> 00:15:33.423
If you're gonna give it a real shot, you very quickly realize how not easy it can be.
00:15:33.543 --> 00:15:36.384
But the more reps that you put in, the better, it is that you're gonna get.
00:15:36.803 --> 00:15:38.993
And no one's perfect the first time.
00:15:39.033 --> 00:15:41.228
I mean, Everything in life is a process.
00:15:41.238 --> 00:15:45.328
So you look at a newborn baby or a toddler who's learning to walk.
00:15:45.368 --> 00:15:47.588
They just don't get up and walk across the room.
00:15:47.728 --> 00:15:49.399
Like they need a lot of encouragement.
00:15:49.598 --> 00:15:59.908
They fall down a lot of times they, fall to the side, they fall back, they fall on their face and we're always around their hovering, trying to protect them so they don't hurt themselves when they fall, but they always get up.
00:16:00.318 --> 00:16:05.948
And I think that's something as adults, we forget like, Oh, I should be able to do that in.
00:16:06.473 --> 00:16:09.254
It shouldn't take that much time at all because I've got a fancy camera.
00:16:09.634 --> 00:16:12.293
Well, you still have to learn how to use your tools.
00:16:12.433 --> 00:16:12.743
Yeah.
00:16:12.863 --> 00:16:17.024
You still have to learn how to use your heart and how you want to use those tools.
00:16:17.363 --> 00:16:20.775
You still have to be able to communicate and deal with people.
00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:25.447
in a great, loving, compassionate way when they're in front of your lens.
00:16:25.926 --> 00:16:27.977
So all of that just, it takes time.
00:16:27.977 --> 00:16:43.903
And I think new photographers especially are kind of given the short end of the stick that they go and they're listening to a lot of, gurus or experts forgetting that those experts have been in the business 15, 20, 30 years and not realizing that they didn't start there.
00:16:44.333 --> 00:16:45.593
They didn't start where they are now.
00:16:45.593 --> 00:16:47.413
They all started not knowing.
00:16:47.841 --> 00:16:52.910
If an 8 f stop was open or closed, everybody started there.
00:16:53.581 --> 00:16:58.640
And I think that gets lost in a lot of the communication that is put out to newer photographers these days.
00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:00.800
Yeah, we all started back where you are.
00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:08.851
we all had fears when it came to like off camera flash to me, like coming back to so many people, new photographers see that it's scary.
00:17:09.141 --> 00:17:13.971
I think it's scary because the people that they listen to make it more than it needs to be.
00:17:14.320 --> 00:17:14.341
Yeah.
00:17:14.651 --> 00:17:19.351
And if you break it down and realize, okay, this controls this, this controls this.
00:17:19.721 --> 00:17:23.721
And then you go out and you play with it a little bit and you start to see how it works.
00:17:24.081 --> 00:17:25.111
It's not that scary.
00:17:25.111 --> 00:17:26.891
You just have to, believe that you can do it.
00:17:27.294 --> 00:17:31.764
And if something sounds too complicated, that person's probably over complicating it.
00:17:32.173 --> 00:17:32.473
Right.
00:17:32.473 --> 00:17:32.854
Because it's
00:17:32.864 --> 00:17:33.264
not.
00:17:33.364 --> 00:17:35.814
it doesn't need to be difficult, but you do need to practice.
00:17:36.553 --> 00:17:46.508
Yeah, I think that there's, a few limitations that, when you're new to photography, that is just Whoa, like, I can't go above one to 50th of a second or whatever, like, hold on, that's hard.
00:17:46.847 --> 00:17:50.557
But I mean, as you said, there's so many, advancements in technology.
00:17:50.557 --> 00:17:52.917
And as you continue to practice, you're going to get better.
00:17:52.917 --> 00:18:05.201
But it's interesting, I was thinking about when you said that we all started somewhere and I was thinking about myself and my own journey and I distinctively remember Googling if I needed, like, why should I buy a 50 millimeter 1.
00:18:05.201 --> 00:18:10.951
8 lens if I have an 18 to 55, uh, you know, kit lens that came with it.
00:18:11.221 --> 00:18:12.730
I was like, right, why do I need that?
00:18:13.030 --> 00:18:13.230
Yeah.
00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:14.453
The focal length is in there.
00:18:14.453 --> 00:18:15.874
Why do I need to buy this?
00:18:15.913 --> 00:18:19.553
and obviously as time goes on, we get better about those things, but,
00:18:19.783 --> 00:18:20.614
and the 1.
00:18:20.614 --> 00:18:21.114
8 to steal.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.185
Oh my gosh, I know, it's
00:18:23.185 --> 00:18:24.519
one of the best lenses,
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:28.098
one of the best values in photography if you're just getting started.
00:18:28.138 --> 00:18:28.638
Yeah.
00:18:28.838 --> 00:18:34.568
For you, when it came to photography, you were talking about looking like over wedding forms earlier.
00:18:34.788 --> 00:18:38.548
What was it about portraits in particular that really sang to you?
00:18:38.995 --> 00:18:41.188
I love faces, 100%.
00:18:41.469 --> 00:18:43.058
I love faces.
00:18:43.158 --> 00:18:43.908
I love.
00:18:44.135 --> 00:18:46.405
the flexibility of them.
00:18:46.465 --> 00:18:48.365
I love the emotions that they show.
00:18:48.405 --> 00:18:58.326
I love, looking at pictures of just faces, beautiful faces of all different colors and shapes and sizes and ages and the whole bit.
00:18:58.766 --> 00:19:05.898
There's just something about a beautiful portrait of a face that just, that's what I love.
00:19:06.308 --> 00:19:19.798
And so what you see in my portfolio may not reflect that, but every client who comes to me, everyone who gets in front of my lens will walk away with what I consider a beautiful portrait of their face.
00:19:20.239 --> 00:19:25.521
it's just something that when I get it in every session, I'm just like, yes, that's what it is.
00:19:25.761 --> 00:19:28.051
It's people, it's photographing faces.
00:19:28.808 --> 00:19:38.825
I love how, that first part of that you were talking about, it's like, this is a silhouette, like, we don't really see many faces in a silhouette, but it's great to, I think hear your progression there.
00:19:38.855 --> 00:19:40.434
It's like, well, it started with this.
00:19:40.434 --> 00:19:45.534
And obviously there's elements that you can love that aren't necessarily just a single thing and focus on that.
00:19:45.534 --> 00:19:51.974
But, when it comes to faces, when it comes to wanting to photograph faces, You're not doing headshots, right?
00:19:52.095 --> 00:19:59.585
So tell me what are some of the elements that go into a great portrait that aren't necessarily a headshot?
00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:09.062
well, I do headshots and I still kind of, I lean for the same idea when I'm doing like commercial headshots versus say a child's portrait.
00:20:09.593 --> 00:20:12.288
Eyes, it's the eyes, getting those eyes focused.
00:20:12.647 --> 00:20:22.014
really sharp and that connection between the camera and me and the person that they're looking right at me or right at the lens.
00:20:22.464 --> 00:20:33.335
I love the difference in skin texture and all the different shapes and colors of lips and that type of thing, just all of it combined is.
00:20:33.724 --> 00:20:36.295
I just think something incredibly beautiful.
00:20:36.714 --> 00:20:37.004
Mm hmm.
00:20:37.356 --> 00:20:39.186
What was the last portrait session that you did?
00:20:39.817 --> 00:20:41.586
Oh, that was actually a headshot for an actor.
00:20:41.606 --> 00:20:49.317
Um, so, and he was older, he was looking for that connection and different personalities and different styles and that kind of stuff.
00:20:49.706 --> 00:21:04.210
But if you take a session that I did right before COVID hit was a family with three children, one set of twins that were five at that point in time, and then they also brought with them the mothers, my clients, mother and father who didn't speak any English.
00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:04.829
I think they're from.
00:21:05.490 --> 00:21:06.960
Belarus or some Mm-Hmm.
00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:07.799
country like that?
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:08.789
No English.
00:21:08.849 --> 00:21:18.769
And also from a culture that does not smile for photography they didn't speak English like I said, but they didn't have a lot of personality even when they did speak, except that they were speaking to the children.
00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:22.309
But if they were speaking to the adults, it was very, very dry.
00:21:22.355 --> 00:21:31.126
And I asked, they were getting ready and the grandpa who didn't speak any English, I just said, can he come sit here and be my light tester?
00:21:31.656 --> 00:21:45.307
And she told him in their language to come over and he sat down and he looked at me and he, and you could tell he was posing in a way that he felt was appropriate for the type of portrait that he was having taken.
00:21:45.537 --> 00:21:46.497
he was in a suit.
00:21:46.537 --> 00:21:48.076
He sat up very tall.
00:21:48.236 --> 00:21:51.787
He had his feet planted, his hands on both knees.
00:21:52.456 --> 00:21:52.876
And.
00:21:53.281 --> 00:21:59.251
Kind of turned, I turned him a little bit and he looked straight at the camera, you would think no expression was there whatsoever.
00:21:59.442 --> 00:22:11.111
But if I go back and I look at that picture, like I can see that that grandpa was pleased to be in a room with his three beloved grandsons and his daughter and that family.
00:22:11.111 --> 00:22:13.201
And he was very proud to be sitting there.
00:22:13.476 --> 00:22:16.517
so that backstory, the backstory always is appropriate.
00:22:16.527 --> 00:22:18.216
You know, you got to throw that in too.
00:22:18.586 --> 00:22:20.706
And then the mother did the same thing.
00:22:20.706 --> 00:22:25.220
And I had even asked if the grandparents would, you know, can he hold her hand?
00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:28.450
Can he give her a peck on the cheek?
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.009
Can he put her arm around her?
00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:40.099
And all of those were met with hard nose, absolutely not culturally acceptable that they would do that in public, let alone have a public picture taken of them.
00:22:40.464 --> 00:22:40.865
Yes.
00:22:40.924 --> 00:22:42.534
Knowing that sort of emotion.
00:22:42.534 --> 00:22:49.004
So I literally have a picture of the two of them Facing me just shoulder to shoulder, facing me straight on.
00:22:49.555 --> 00:22:51.444
And I'm like, okay, what can I do with this?
00:22:51.494 --> 00:22:53.605
And so I just indicated grandma.
00:22:53.605 --> 00:22:55.384
I said, can you just tilt your head?
00:22:55.774 --> 00:22:59.269
Just the tiniest, tiniest bit in towards him.
00:22:59.278 --> 00:23:01.918
Cause I think they would have been married for like 63 years.
00:23:02.324 --> 00:23:02.644
Wow.
00:23:02.943 --> 00:23:06.283
And I took that shot and that's the shot that the daughter fell in love with.
00:23:06.344 --> 00:23:11.403
That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait.
00:23:11.644 --> 00:23:23.793
But to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him, just the tiniest little bit to show that they were connected in some way.
00:23:24.233 --> 00:23:27.007
That's a picture that went on the wall for that family.
00:23:27.376 --> 00:23:33.104
And so those are the types of connections that I like when I'm looking for just that beautiful head shot.
00:23:33.374 --> 00:23:43.193
Now, granted for a toddler, I'm just hoping they're looking at the camera as they're running around, you know, just to get that good, but it's an energy behind the fire in their eyes that you can catch that is so beautiful.
00:23:43.878 --> 00:23:46.078
That you caught that split moment of time.
00:23:46.252 --> 00:23:47.593
That's a beautiful story, by the way.
00:23:47.682 --> 00:23:48.873
So thank you for sharing that.
00:23:49.282 --> 00:23:51.942
In that moment, were you worried that you weren't getting it?
00:23:52.582 --> 00:24:00.502
Were you nervous that, there wasn't enough emotion or excitement or intimacy between these photos?
00:24:00.822 --> 00:24:10.416
I guess I'm just trying to figure out, if you were to show up in that situation, if I were to show up and, photograph a family, I'm thinking fun, excitement, joy, and this is none of those things.
00:24:10.622 --> 00:24:17.861
So, were you, worried inside or was this, an awareness thing of, you know what, this is who they are and this is, what we're getting.
00:24:18.551 --> 00:24:21.041
I think it's a combination of a couple things.
00:24:21.041 --> 00:24:22.662
One is being in the Washington, D.
00:24:22.662 --> 00:24:22.922
C.
00:24:22.922 --> 00:24:27.601
area, I serve a lot of people that don't speak English as a first language.
00:24:27.711 --> 00:24:29.241
And they're coming from different cultures.
00:24:29.382 --> 00:24:31.491
And, I've learned to respect that.
00:24:31.926 --> 00:24:40.156
And I can ask for certain things, but if a client says no, or shakes their head or that type of thing, then it's a, no, there's no pressing there.
00:24:40.166 --> 00:24:41.297
It's just like, this is it.
00:24:41.787 --> 00:24:50.186
I do worry sometimes that I'm going to be able to capture the connection that they want to see, because ultimately I'm hired by them to get the images that they want.
00:24:50.596 --> 00:24:54.017
And I can't create something that they're not willing to give me.
00:24:54.866 --> 00:25:01.932
So yes, I worry, but then ultimately I also realize that sometimes I can't I'm not responsible for it.
00:25:02.481 --> 00:25:07.162
if they're not going to cooperate or do what I ask, then I have to work within those confines and I get that.
00:25:07.801 --> 00:25:12.872
So no, I don't worry about it too much, but I also want to exceed my client's expectations.
00:25:13.157 --> 00:25:21.867
And sometimes for me to do that, I know I have to ask them to step out of their comfort zone because they don't necessarily see what I see.
00:25:22.468 --> 00:25:23.988
So it's, kind of like a dance.
00:25:24.052 --> 00:25:33.732
I had to work around it a little bit and pick and choose what you want, because surprisingly enough, the rest of the session with the two young boys and the son, I mean, we were jumping around.
00:25:33.732 --> 00:25:35.302
The kids were on dad's shoulders.
00:25:35.623 --> 00:25:37.822
He was hugging, you know, dad was hugging mom.
00:25:37.873 --> 00:25:40.322
There was a lot of love and affection in this session.
00:25:40.332 --> 00:25:41.292
It was a lot of fun.
00:25:41.603 --> 00:25:46.613
But when the, grandparents came in, it was a different feeling that needed to be captured.
00:25:47.177 --> 00:25:47.778
Wow.
00:25:48.101 --> 00:25:49.221
did you know this beforehand?
00:25:49.251 --> 00:25:55.461
Like, do you have some sort of, questionnaire asking specifically about the people and what sorts of photos that they're wanting?
00:25:56.101 --> 00:26:03.841
I always ask, and I have this on my intake form on my website too, is I, always say, if I could capture the perfect image for you, what would that look like?
00:26:04.241 --> 00:26:04.551
Yeah.
00:26:05.106 --> 00:26:06.807
And, it's a very simple question.
00:26:06.817 --> 00:26:08.997
I could have a wide variety of answers.
00:26:09.497 --> 00:26:12.696
Sometimes it's just like, Oh, my newborn baby with their eyes open.
00:26:12.797 --> 00:26:16.572
Or it's, I just want us to show the love of us as a family.
00:26:16.603 --> 00:26:19.942
Well, that's, I mean, that's great, but that's a very, very vague.
00:26:20.163 --> 00:26:20.363
Yeah.
00:26:20.363 --> 00:26:20.682
So I,
00:26:20.843 --> 00:26:24.629
have learned how to kind of narrow that down a little bit when I'm talking to them.
00:26:24.629 --> 00:26:28.129
Cause I always want to talk to my client before I have a session with them.
00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:30.930
Get to know them, get them to hear my voice.
00:26:31.069 --> 00:26:33.923
there's a lot that can be, and this is my vocal training.
00:26:33.923 --> 00:26:35.913
There's a lot that can be translated with the voice.
00:26:36.272 --> 00:26:38.093
So I think a phone call is really important.
00:26:38.423 --> 00:26:41.195
and you just kind of get to know them a little bit better.
00:26:41.195 --> 00:26:48.985
And sometimes what they put on paper, after you've had that conversation, you realize that's not really the image that you need to get, because mom might tell you something totally different.
00:26:49.066 --> 00:26:51.516
Like she might say on the form.
00:26:51.773 --> 00:26:53.653
I want a picture of our whole family together.
00:26:53.733 --> 00:27:03.053
But then when you're talking to her, you realize the most important picture to her is her three children looking at the camera, smiling with a little mischief in their eyes.
00:27:03.713 --> 00:27:04.043
And then I'm
00:27:04.043 --> 00:27:06.243
like, okay, well that's what I need to concentrate on.
00:27:06.503 --> 00:27:07.874
Yes, I can get the family image.
00:27:07.874 --> 00:27:08.293
That's fine.
00:27:08.334 --> 00:27:09.523
I'm not that out right away.
00:27:09.523 --> 00:27:17.293
That's not a big deal, but what's going to go on the wall, what they're going to love the most and share with their friends and family are the ones, those three kids with that little twinkle.
00:27:17.598 --> 00:27:22.368
And so by having that conversation, it helps narrow that down.
00:27:22.598 --> 00:27:27.061
But like in the situation with those grandparents, no, I did not know what I was looking into.
00:27:27.192 --> 00:27:28.402
I knew they were coming.
00:27:28.736 --> 00:27:31.277
Because I always ask, how many people are going to be there?
00:27:31.277 --> 00:27:32.057
What are their ages?
00:27:32.057 --> 00:27:33.527
What are they like, especially with kids.
00:27:33.527 --> 00:27:39.047
I'd like to know like what Marvel heroes did these kids like, and one was Spider Man and one was Thor.
00:27:39.047 --> 00:27:40.926
So I love Marvel movies.
00:27:40.966 --> 00:27:46.876
As a singer, I can sing any princess song needed for all the little girls, all that kind of stuff.
00:27:46.876 --> 00:27:52.596
So to know what I need to have in my bag of tricks for the successful session, I ask those questions.
00:27:53.106 --> 00:27:54.007
I had a time.
00:27:54.116 --> 00:27:56.616
and then also I dig a little deeper in the phone conversation.
00:27:56.942 --> 00:27:58.442
But the phone conversation is short.
00:27:58.462 --> 00:28:00.643
It's just for us to get to know each other a little bit better.
00:28:01.042 --> 00:28:13.619
Yeah, I mean, that's something that again, a lot of photographers newer photographers really struggle with and myself included, the idea of getting on the phone with somebody, first of all, I hate when my phone rings and I don't know who it is.
00:28:14.129 --> 00:28:18.279
And so it's like, now I'm going to be that person to somebody else.
00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:19.879
And what are you talking about?
00:28:19.879 --> 00:28:21.029
How much are you talking about?
00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:26.809
I know that you're a huge proponent of in person sales and like doing a proper sales session.
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:29.409
So is that where it starts with the phone call?
00:28:29.879 --> 00:28:32.659
Well, there's a lot of different philosophies to this.
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:39.309
And I know that in my former life, yes, I was a huge, huge proponent of IPS and all that stood for.
00:28:39.369 --> 00:28:48.022
And I still am, but I don't necessarily feel that that is the right, way that that program is laid out with the consultation phone call and then the consultation visit.
00:28:48.022 --> 00:28:51.843
And then you do the session and then you meet afterwards and then you meet for the delivery.
00:28:52.123 --> 00:28:59.615
With all these appointments and that type of thing, If that works for your business workflow and your clients love it and you love it, knock yourself out.
00:28:59.855 --> 00:29:02.335
But that's not the reality for a lot of new photographers.
00:29:02.335 --> 00:29:05.805
First of all, they look at that and they think, Oh my gosh, that's so overwhelming.
00:29:06.315 --> 00:29:08.274
I just want to go out and take pretty pictures.
00:29:08.394 --> 00:29:11.034
And I would like to make a little money on the side while I do it.
00:29:11.474 --> 00:29:13.444
And I'd like to be able to.
00:29:13.754 --> 00:29:21.295
Contribute to my family income in some way so that pays for this hobby and maybe we can plan for vacation or put some more money in the college fund.
00:29:21.784 --> 00:29:32.414
and there's obviously photographers who strive for much more, but when you look at it, the traditional IPS model, the way that it's taught can be very overwhelming.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.119
And I don't think it needs to be that way.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:43.279
So getting on the phone for me is something that I do after, usually, after I've sent them some information.
00:29:43.529 --> 00:29:46.019
And a lot of times it happens after they book.
00:29:46.694 --> 00:29:48.865
So they've already bought into me.
00:29:48.934 --> 00:29:50.565
They've already paid me money.
00:29:51.034 --> 00:29:54.444
I have a confidence in knowing, yeah, they really want to work with me.
00:29:54.714 --> 00:30:00.134
And I usually just say, Hey, before we have this session, I just like to hop on the phone for 10 or 15 minutes.
00:30:00.154 --> 00:30:02.504
I have a couple of really quick questions to ask you.
00:30:02.810 --> 00:30:05.664
when can we do this by letting them know ahead of time?
00:30:05.664 --> 00:30:07.575
First of all, I'm not going to take up a ton of their time.
00:30:08.815 --> 00:30:12.218
I have a really set agenda for doing this, that it's a short.
00:30:12.567 --> 00:30:14.337
Just informational phone call.
00:30:14.927 --> 00:30:16.207
And they've already paid me.
00:30:16.207 --> 00:30:17.827
So they're wanting to work with me.
00:30:17.827 --> 00:30:19.228
They've already invested.
00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:26.671
it's very easy to get on the phone, asking a total stranger who has never invested in you, doesn't even know if they want to work with you yet.
00:30:27.010 --> 00:30:31.240
And they've probably sent inquiries to 20 other photographers in your town.
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:34.421
They're going to go with the person who makes business easiest.
00:30:34.830 --> 00:30:36.270
And I totally get that.
00:30:36.540 --> 00:30:38.340
So you want to make business easy.
00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:40.260
A phone call for a lot of people.
00:30:40.330 --> 00:30:52.837
Nowadays isn't easy because they're not comfortable because, the way I look at it, my generation was comfortable with phone calls, the generation of the people that I want to serve as far as young families and that type of thing.
00:30:53.011 --> 00:30:59.771
they have different priorities and the texting and that type of stuff is what has obviously come in fashion, which makes me sound old.
00:30:59.771 --> 00:31:01.497
But I said, Come in fashion,
00:31:01.936 --> 00:31:02.156
but
00:31:02.346 --> 00:31:04.606
you know, generationally it's different.
00:31:04.626 --> 00:31:11.886
And I think we need to realize that that marketing has changed style of business has changed and we can embrace it.
00:31:11.896 --> 00:31:18.557
We can still run profitable businesses, but we don't have to keep trying to put people into a box that a lot of people don't want to be put into.
00:31:19.517 --> 00:31:21.777
So, that's how I do my phone calls.
00:31:22.156 --> 00:31:25.696
And if I can get them on the phone ahead of time, I love it.
00:31:26.076 --> 00:31:31.527
I love talking to people on the phone, but I also have a lot of experience doing it and I know what I need to ask.
00:31:31.537 --> 00:31:36.626
So I actually have a questionnaire that I send people and ask them to fill out.
00:31:37.116 --> 00:31:46.767
And, when I do, if they call me, see if I get a phone inquiry, which happens maybe twice a year, I pull out that questionnaire and I go through the questionnaire on the phone.
00:31:46.767 --> 00:31:50.287
So I have all my talking points of what I need to know for my client.
00:31:50.777 --> 00:32:02.676
And then if I'm having this phone conversation after the booking, Then it's much shorter, but I still go over some of those highlighted points, getting to know their kids a little better and talking about logistics of the session, but it's shorter and it's more concise.
00:32:03.114 --> 00:32:14.023
So where you put that phone call is, important, but I do think that in order for you to have that connection and my whole thing is they're hiring me to do a job.
00:32:14.406 --> 00:32:19.836
I can only do the best job for them if I have the certain amount of information.
00:32:20.781 --> 00:32:26.442
And part of that information is knowing a little bit more about the style of the person who has hired me.
00:32:26.690 --> 00:32:27.889
like what's important to them?
00:32:28.309 --> 00:32:36.569
The timeliness of the session, how quickly I get it done because their husband doesn't want to be there and has been giving him grief, giving her grief about it for two weeks.
00:32:36.940 --> 00:32:40.480
And all she's going to hear on the way there is him complaining the whole time.
00:32:40.869 --> 00:32:44.180
So I need to work quickly so that, that reflects well on her.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:51.886
Is it, Someone who really just wants me to keep shooting until I get a certain amount of picture like finding out those personality styles.
00:32:51.886 --> 00:32:53.396
You're not going to find out through email.
00:32:53.836 --> 00:32:57.616
You're not going to find those out any other way except by hopping on the phone.
00:32:57.616 --> 00:33:02.426
So that's why I feel it's important because I want to do a great job for the person who hires me.
00:33:02.670 --> 00:33:03.430
That's what it's all about.
00:33:04.264 --> 00:33:05.795
Yeah, that's wonderful.
00:33:05.795 --> 00:33:16.521
I was recently going through your Instagram and I saw that you made wonderful little reel about sending too much information when somebody first inquires with you.
00:33:16.912 --> 00:33:22.961
So I'm assuming that this questionnaire that you're sending out to get all this information isn't in that first email or am I wrong?
00:33:22.971 --> 00:33:23.271
No,
00:33:23.271 --> 00:33:25.081
it's not in the first email at all.
00:33:25.091 --> 00:33:28.801
In fact, in the first email, the information I may be so bold.
00:33:29.051 --> 00:33:30.321
This is the way I kind of look at it.
00:33:30.341 --> 00:33:32.672
Children grow up wanting to know certain things about life.
00:33:33.101 --> 00:33:33.501
Okay.
00:33:33.851 --> 00:33:47.892
When a five year old asks a certain question about where babies come from, you give them a very specific answer that is narrow in scope and you don't sit down with them for an hour and a half and explain all the processes that go into how babies are made.
00:33:48.557 --> 00:33:48.836
Right?
00:33:49.176 --> 00:33:49.366
Yes.
00:33:49.896 --> 00:33:52.716
So because that's all that five year old needs at that point in time.
00:33:52.966 --> 00:34:02.356
So I kind of look at it that way when it comes to people who inquire, like they only need and are only asking a very specific narrow set of information of me at this time.
00:34:02.636 --> 00:34:03.986
So that's what I'm going to address.
00:34:04.483 --> 00:34:07.124
And I'm going to do it in the best way possible for me and my studio.
00:34:07.243 --> 00:34:11.023
And then we go to the next step so they get a little more information.
00:34:11.114 --> 00:34:13.804
And then we go to the next step and they get more information.
00:34:14.153 --> 00:34:22.864
But I'm not going to give them all the information when they inquire about what it's like to work with me from beginning all the way to the delivery of services, because that's a long way away.
00:34:22.894 --> 00:34:24.514
They don't need that at that point in time.
00:34:24.664 --> 00:34:29.624
It's just, they want to know basic pricing information, what kind of services I provide, that type of thing.
00:34:29.624 --> 00:34:37.293
So that's what I answer it first, Just because we don't think that it's overwhelming doesn't mean that someone who's not in the business, isn't going to think it's overwhelming.
00:34:37.364 --> 00:34:40.913
an overwhelmed mind doesn't buy an overwhelmed mind doesn't decide.
00:34:41.324 --> 00:34:46.653
So I want to make sure that I'm helping those people, make the best decision, which is of course to hire me.
00:34:47.034 --> 00:34:51.759
Yeah, that's how I, go through that process.
00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:52.009
Yeah.
00:34:52.009 --> 00:34:53.570
You don't want to overwhelm them too much.
00:34:54.235 --> 00:34:56.382
Okay, so let's, break down this inquiry email.
00:34:56.422 --> 00:34:58.201
It's, yes, I'm available.
00:34:58.431 --> 00:34:59.672
Here are my prices.
00:35:00.012 --> 00:35:01.021
Next step.
00:35:01.248 --> 00:35:04.679
Okay, so I don't give out my pricing all the way over the phone.
00:35:04.949 --> 00:35:11.159
The first step literally is my average client spends between 800 for their portrait session.
00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:13.818
obviously you decide what's best for you.
00:35:13.878 --> 00:35:17.498
My average client spends this much and this is what they get for that.
00:35:18.318 --> 00:35:23.208
So my average client spends a certain amount and they get an album and they get their digital files, plus the session time.
00:35:23.808 --> 00:35:25.778
I relay that information.
00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:29.581
I'm not sending them something with 50 different prices listed out.
00:35:30.001 --> 00:35:32.621
Because they're probably not interested in 50 different things.
00:35:32.742 --> 00:35:37.141
They're probably, they want to know at that point in time, basic information.
00:35:37.672 --> 00:35:44.643
And I put on top of that, if there's something in particular or something specific you're looking for, I'm happy to provide that information.
00:35:44.643 --> 00:35:45.413
Just let me know.
00:35:45.523 --> 00:35:46.983
I'm an open book with my clients.
00:35:47.023 --> 00:35:49.353
I just want to throw everything out there.
00:35:49.373 --> 00:35:51.893
Cause like I said, overwhelmed people don't buy, they don't.
00:35:53.134 --> 00:35:56.143
So the first initial emails, thank you so much for contacting me.
00:35:56.143 --> 00:35:57.623
I can't wait to learn more about you.
00:35:57.663 --> 00:36:02.173
And I put it, I turn it around is I'm not the right fit for every client.
00:36:02.744 --> 00:36:05.923
So at that point in time, it's not like, Oh, I can't wait to work for you.
00:36:05.943 --> 00:36:09.193
It's more of like, Hey, thank you for contacting me.
00:36:09.543 --> 00:36:16.543
I would love to learn more about your photography needs and photographing your family to make sure that I'm the right fit for you.
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:23.440
So I'm already putting out there that, Oh, maybe she's won't work with us or maybe she's not the right fit for us.
00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:29.780
Like I'm just, it's psychological way of course, looking at it versus just like jumping to, Oh, I want to work with you so much.
00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:31.030
Here's everything that you need to know.
00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:31.601
Please hire me.
00:36:31.601 --> 00:36:32.201
Please hire me.
00:36:32.641 --> 00:36:33.400
It's like, wait a minute.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.561
There's a step here.
00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:48.777
And on my website, I go through the steps and I liken it to like a, Broadway show release back to the whole singing thing of like, you have your rehearsals, you have your dress rehearsal, you have the night of the performance, and then you have the delivery, which is like the after party.
00:36:49.757 --> 00:36:51.237
So that's all outlined on my website.
00:36:51.637 --> 00:36:52.858
So hopefully they've read that.
00:36:52.858 --> 00:36:54.967
If they haven't read it, I put a link in there to, to the website.
00:36:55.268 --> 00:36:57.097
Send them back to that, to take a look at that.
00:36:57.527 --> 00:37:01.483
I want to give them everything that they need to know and start the conversation.
00:37:01.483 --> 00:37:03.344
So I give them basic pricing information.
00:37:03.733 --> 00:37:08.534
sometimes they tell me when they need to have a session like with newborns, approximately what timeframe.
00:37:08.534 --> 00:37:10.663
So I'll say, yes, I'm available during that time.
00:37:11.083 --> 00:37:14.023
and then I have a questionnaire that I ask them to fill out.
00:37:14.114 --> 00:37:19.994
And with that, if they go to the questionnaire part, then they will get more specific pricing information.
00:37:20.054 --> 00:37:22.153
I'm not gonna make them wait for it.
00:37:22.748 --> 00:37:29.702
But they do need to at least give me an honest idea that they are truly interested in working with me
00:37:30.893 --> 00:37:31.043
when
00:37:31.043 --> 00:37:32.012
it comes to that.
00:37:32.293 --> 00:37:34.322
So it's just one tiny little extra step.
00:37:34.572 --> 00:37:36.222
And then they've already filled out the questionnaire.
00:37:36.222 --> 00:37:37.583
I have the information that I need.
00:37:37.583 --> 00:37:39.489
Then they have their, pricing information.
00:37:39.538 --> 00:37:46.668
Then the next thing is once I send that, Then if I don't receive a response right away, I follow up about a day later and say, Hey, I sent you this information.
00:37:46.668 --> 00:37:47.648
Did you have any questions?
00:37:47.967 --> 00:37:49.998
If you want to hop on a phone call, I'm happy to do that.
00:37:50.018 --> 00:37:51.367
Otherwise, please let me know.
00:37:51.367 --> 00:37:53.347
How can I get assist you in making your decision?
00:37:53.827 --> 00:37:55.538
and just go going from there.
00:37:55.668 --> 00:37:56.297
And then.
00:37:56.603 --> 00:37:59.552
Usually from that, if they want to book, like, Oh, yes, we want to book.
00:37:59.822 --> 00:38:00.922
This sounds great.
00:38:01.003 --> 00:38:03.702
And then I go into my booking process, which was great.
00:38:04.023 --> 00:38:05.722
Here's the agreement that I need you to sign.
00:38:05.733 --> 00:38:07.373
Here's the session deposit.
00:38:07.643 --> 00:38:10.733
I have you on my calendar once this is paid and taken care of.
00:38:11.132 --> 00:38:15.585
we go from there and then they get all the how to prepare for the session and all that information.
00:38:16.065 --> 00:38:19.568
And then, we set up a phone call somewhere in there.
00:38:20.172 --> 00:38:21.382
That was extremely comprehensive.
00:38:21.471 --> 00:38:21.751
Yes.
00:38:21.831 --> 00:38:22.141
Yes.
00:38:22.141 --> 00:38:23.311
It's very comprehensive, right?
00:38:23.592 --> 00:38:28.036
But the thing is is that you cannot assume that your photographers know how you do business.
00:38:28.246 --> 00:38:29.396
Right, right.
00:38:29.898 --> 00:38:31.818
And it sounds overwhelming, but it's not.
00:38:31.829 --> 00:38:32.938
These emails are short.
00:38:33.028 --> 00:38:34.418
The information is brief.
00:38:34.818 --> 00:38:39.858
it's helping them to the next step versus assuming that they know what the next step is.
00:38:41.389 --> 00:38:42.998
First of all, I love that line there.
00:38:43.048 --> 00:38:44.909
How can I assist you in making a decision?
00:38:44.909 --> 00:38:55.105
I think that that is something that, so many new photographers that struggle with follow up and like that, one sentence before that can be like, Hey, Kara, I just want to make sure you saw my last email or whatever.
00:38:55.371 --> 00:38:56.851
How can I assist you in making a decision?
00:38:56.871 --> 00:38:58.181
Like, that's the email right there.
00:38:58.181 --> 00:39:00.552
Like super small, super short, super simple.
00:39:00.621 --> 00:39:03.161
Yeah, it is not before we move forward.
00:39:03.161 --> 00:39:06.592
I just want to make sure what is call to action in that first email?
00:39:06.592 --> 00:39:07.751
Is it to call you?
00:39:07.782 --> 00:39:10.572
Is it to just simply reply to the email?
00:39:10.632 --> 00:39:11.471
What is it that you say?
00:39:11.471 --> 00:39:11.681
It's a
00:39:11.711 --> 00:39:12.271
reply.
00:39:12.382 --> 00:39:13.641
It's a simple reply.
00:39:14.001 --> 00:39:14.481
Um, yeah.
00:39:14.896 --> 00:39:23.815
In almost all my emails, I put my phone number and not in every email, but I let them know that I am available to talk on the phone.
00:39:24.226 --> 00:39:24.476
Uh huh.
00:39:24.855 --> 00:39:27.536
Not because I want to talk on the phone every step of the way.
00:39:27.715 --> 00:39:28.516
That's not it.
00:39:28.565 --> 00:39:31.882
But it's just a, way of communicating me being open to them.
00:39:32.572 --> 00:39:39.961
And, I also let it know, be known that, sometimes having a conversation, I can do an email.
00:39:40.632 --> 00:39:43.141
And I have to wait to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
00:39:43.471 --> 00:39:54.237
Well, that could take up to 45 minutes of my time, where I can have a five minute phone conversation to answer all their questions that they thought they had, plus questions that they didn't know they had, in five minutes and be done with it.
00:39:54.686 --> 00:39:55.146
Yeah.
00:39:55.666 --> 00:39:56.286
Wonderful.
00:39:56.331 --> 00:39:57.032
Oh my gosh.
00:39:57.132 --> 00:40:06.072
it's one of those things again, like I was saying, if you get into photography to take photos, the whole business side can be very, you know, it can be very uncertain.
00:40:06.081 --> 00:40:07.382
You're not sure what to do.
00:40:07.402 --> 00:40:11.391
You feel like you have to be very professional, but then you're told to be very personal.
00:40:11.681 --> 00:40:16.021
so the way that you broke down, I mean, that whole inquiry process, I'm Exactly what to say.
00:40:16.262 --> 00:40:20.262
and, laid out I guess the flow chart, you could say, I know it's going to help a lot of photographers.
00:40:20.271 --> 00:40:31.934
So, I want to thank you for that, but of course want to move on now and ask about, learning to trust yourself when it comes to the artistic side of photography?
00:40:31.965 --> 00:40:38.425
Because again, we live in a world with Pinterest, we live in a world with Instagram and photos can get millions of likes.
00:40:38.425 --> 00:40:43.217
And then we look at our work and it gets three and you know, it can be very, discouraging.
00:40:43.507 --> 00:40:48.771
So how do we learn to trust ourselves and our instincts when it comes to creating our art?
00:40:49.130 --> 00:40:52.288
I think that this can be done several different ways.
00:40:52.317 --> 00:40:54.518
And for me, it's happened in a combination of ways.
00:40:55.038 --> 00:41:01.114
one is I learned the technical aspects of what a good photograph is.
00:41:01.684 --> 00:41:32.474
I'll sit like PPA does these image competitions and then they, post the judging online and you can sit all day and watch them go through image after image after image after image and you can see the ratings that it's given and they do this on a regional level and they also do this on a national level so if learning how to do this is something that's important to someone they can hook up with the professional photographers association of america ppa and get information about image competitions so another thing that you can do and this is not this is not my specialty i do not like it.
00:41:32.974 --> 00:41:43.344
Entering image competitions is not my thing, but if someone really wants that good feedback from people who have been in the business for a long time, they can join image competitions.
00:41:43.585 --> 00:41:47.967
And if your images start getting good ratings, that can bring your confidence up.
00:41:48.012 --> 00:41:49.322
And
00:41:49.322 --> 00:41:51.875
that's what it comes down to is being able to trust yourself.
00:41:52.184 --> 00:42:02.144
Well, sometimes just saying you're good enough, we're sensitive, creative creatures, you know, we're sensitive photographers and, and we have sensitive egos and all that type of stuff.
00:42:02.144 --> 00:42:03.394
We want everyone to love our art.
00:42:03.454 --> 00:42:17.197
So sometimes enter an image competition, get some tough love your first couple of times, and then you'll start to see your ratings go up and you can know in the back of your head, okay, I can do this because I've been given these critiques and I know what I'm talking about.
00:42:17.847 --> 00:42:25.137
I think going and getting good education and how to shoot, from people who have been doing it for a long time.
00:42:25.518 --> 00:42:28.817
I think is also really good and getting feedback on those images.
00:42:28.998 --> 00:42:31.998
I personally don't think that most critique.
00:42:32.259 --> 00:42:44.039
like critique groups and that kind of stuff on Facebook are really gonna get people where you need to be, because that's not where the really great image, critiquers or ju jurors are hanging out.
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:45.119
they're running studios.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:46.650
They're not hanging out on social media.
00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:53.101
members are, there's a few out there, but I say go meet people in the industry.
00:42:53.510 --> 00:42:57.371
And I hate to keep bringing up PPA, but PPA is a great way to do that.
00:42:57.471 --> 00:43:01.951
they do these super one day classes, one day workshops, I think they're called now.
00:43:02.451 --> 00:43:04.070
And they have them all over the country.
00:43:04.090 --> 00:43:05.141
And you can sign up for them.
00:43:05.141 --> 00:43:10.141
And I sign up from every year, even if the subject is something that I'm not particularly interested about.
00:43:10.730 --> 00:43:10.891
But
00:43:10.891 --> 00:43:12.650
it's one day, it's 99.
00:43:13.146 --> 00:43:30.235
You go in and you meet a lot of established photographers who've been doing this a long time, get to know them, make friends with them, ask them if you go to a workshop during lunch, bring some portfolio work and say, Hey, what do you think of this and get really educated feedback on what you're producing.
00:43:30.625 --> 00:43:38.355
So being educated and getting that feedback I think is one really, really important way for people to get the confidence that they need.
00:43:38.659 --> 00:43:39.670
To move forward.
00:43:40.289 --> 00:43:44.025
And then I get a lot of confidence and.
00:43:44.394 --> 00:43:47.804
trusting in myself from the feedback that I get from my clients.
00:43:47.875 --> 00:43:49.134
Like, how do I trust myself?
00:43:49.304 --> 00:44:02.384
I hear it from my clients all the time when I'm sitting with them or I'm on the phone with them and we're looking at their images or I show them the back of my camera during a session and I, show them something that I've tried and they agree that it's great.
00:44:02.764 --> 00:44:12.175
And not just because it's someone that they love in the picture, but because I've created something that's beautiful with the lighting and everything, getting that is a way that I can.
00:44:12.382 --> 00:44:24.422
feed my tender, creative soul with the positive feedback that I need and also learn to trust myself more because you need that feedback to be able to grow in the trust that you have in yourself.
00:44:24.882 --> 00:44:27.333
And then you start doing stuff that's different.
00:44:27.938 --> 00:44:31.438
And you see how it's received and you can see how it's received by your clients.
00:44:31.697 --> 00:44:33.597
You can see how it's received in social media.
00:44:33.867 --> 00:44:40.257
You can see if when you post something in your portfolio, someone calls you and says, I want images that look like that.
00:44:40.688 --> 00:44:41.047
Yeah.
00:44:41.277 --> 00:44:43.057
Then you know, you're onto something.
00:44:43.438 --> 00:44:51.141
And the session that I did with the family, with the grandparents that I spoke about earlier, the reason she called me specifically, and she was a phone inquiry.
00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:54.880
She called me specifically was because she saw a session that I did.
00:44:55.331 --> 00:44:56.971
that was very different from my normal.
00:44:56.980 --> 00:45:01.000
it was not an outside fall foliage picture or whatever.
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:01.780
It's very different.
00:45:02.221 --> 00:45:04.380
She saw what I did for another family.
00:45:04.380 --> 00:45:06.530
She's like, I want images that look like that.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.030
I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm onto something here.
00:45:09.690 --> 00:45:11.971
If people are specifically asking for that.
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:17.527
So you want to get feedback to help Build that kind of bottom layer of things.
00:45:17.557 --> 00:45:20.967
And then once you get to, you get feedback and you realize, okay, yeah, I do have an eye for this.
00:45:20.967 --> 00:45:25.317
People do like what I'm putting out and you start to trust your equipment and you play with your equipment.
00:45:25.327 --> 00:45:27.148
So you know what it can do and what it can't do.
00:45:27.677 --> 00:45:33.958
All of that starts to kind of the snowball effect of being able to trust yourself and what you're putting out into the world.
00:45:33.958 --> 00:45:41.300
And also know that sometimes stuff you put out into the world isn't necessarily going to fly and that's okay too.
00:45:41.512 --> 00:45:51.726
but realizing that you have the education and the knowledge and everything underneath it to promote, to build the art that you want to build is something that I think really, really helps creatives do that.
00:45:51.746 --> 00:46:03.639
And a lot of new photographers haven't had the time yet to delve into that, or they haven't given themselves permission to fail at things because they want to be right and have it be perfect right away.
00:46:04.219 --> 00:46:04.659
Right.
00:46:05.105 --> 00:46:11.097
To start getting that feedback so that you kind of have that cushion of knowing yeah, know what I'm doing here I can do this.
00:46:11.677 --> 00:46:25.902
Yeah, What you touched upon there right there at the end is really important because I think probably both you and I, we could show somebody one of our photos and regardless of what they say, it's not going to change the way that we shoot or do much, right?
00:46:25.922 --> 00:46:30.233
Unless we know that they're respected and esteemed member of the photography community.
00:46:30.793 --> 00:46:42.643
But I do often see a lot of new photographers come into the beginner photography podcast Facebook community, who have been maybe in it for a week, they will ask for feedback on an image right away.
00:46:43.063 --> 00:46:44.942
They're still in that experimental phase, right?
00:46:44.942 --> 00:46:58.072
They're still just trying to learn how to use their camera and not at the point to where they know enough about their camera to be able to capture what they see in their head, to then be able to ask for feedback, to then be able to apply that into their work, you know?
00:46:58.643 --> 00:47:00.503
yeah, I really think that's going to help.
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:01.889
Those are the hardest.
00:47:02.356 --> 00:47:03.157
Critiques to give.
00:47:03.157 --> 00:47:05.427
Critiques on social media to give.
00:47:06.186 --> 00:47:11.112
And when I see them, I always want to encourage them.
00:47:11.492 --> 00:47:12.021
Yes.
00:47:12.112 --> 00:47:19.228
Because congratulations, you were brave and being brave is part of being in this industry and being in this business.
00:47:19.327 --> 00:47:20.317
Like you gotta be brave.
00:47:20.327 --> 00:47:21.288
You gotta put it out there.
00:47:21.737 --> 00:47:29.074
But knowing then in the back that they're just, depending on what group it's in, they're just going to get crucified.
00:47:29.514 --> 00:47:29.994
Right.
00:47:30.105 --> 00:47:30.244
Right.
00:47:30.324 --> 00:47:33.375
And my lone encouraging voice.
00:47:33.777 --> 00:47:39.337
Is probably not going to drown out everyone else who tells them that they're horrible and like, why do they even have a camera?
00:47:39.628 --> 00:47:41.597
And no wonder your client complained about this.
00:47:41.597 --> 00:47:43.398
Like, this isn't worthy of anything.
00:47:44.057 --> 00:47:47.148
I'm just like, okay, can we do this in a way that doesn't crush their spirit?
00:47:47.557 --> 00:47:47.827
Yeah.
00:47:47.837 --> 00:47:51.387
Because they're trying and you want to give people, credit for that.
00:47:51.418 --> 00:47:53.768
like I said, we all started there.
00:47:53.817 --> 00:47:54.668
We all did it.
00:47:54.708 --> 00:48:00.217
We all had the horrible session with the bad lighting and the twins and the whole bit when we first started.
00:48:00.657 --> 00:48:01.918
And we didn't know what to do with it.
00:48:02.297 --> 00:48:03.478
But good for them for showing up.
00:48:04.188 --> 00:48:05.027
Exactly.
00:48:05.077 --> 00:48:05.567
Yes.
00:48:05.657 --> 00:48:15.672
So, For you, when you first started, How long do you think you need to be shooting before you should really start to consider others feedback.
00:48:16.041 --> 00:48:24.994
I think other people's feedback is good to consider immediately as long as you keep in perspective where that feedback is coming from.
00:48:25.855 --> 00:48:38.420
That's the biggest thing, I think, especially in this age of social media and specifically Facebook groups where people will post up an image and you have 100 people replying, but you don't know their background.
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.670
You don't know how good they are, what they do, how long they've been doing, what they do.
00:48:42.889 --> 00:48:44.989
You don't know if their opinion is really worth anything.
00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:53.630
So I think you have to remember that, like going back to the PPA competitions, you know, the people who are looking at those images are seasoned photographers.
00:48:53.630 --> 00:48:55.019
They've gone through training.
00:48:55.309 --> 00:48:58.949
They have what standards of photography are now granted.
00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:04.179
PPA competitions are kind of boring, but they've satisfied.
00:49:04.442 --> 00:49:08.692
The basic idea of what is considered a good photograph.
00:49:09.161 --> 00:49:25.251
So then you can take that and you can creatively spin it in your work and do something that's more creative, but you have to take into consideration where the advice is coming from and the attitude in which it's coming from, because a lot of people just live out there to tear other people down.
00:49:26.061 --> 00:49:30.525
And a lot of people don't realize this, but if you're brave enough to put something out there.
00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:40.389
That in and of itself is a huge accomplishment, but to be able to take feedback like that and be able to weed through it and see what's good and what's bad.
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:44.579
So I don't think you have to have been in business for any certain amount of time to put it out there.
00:49:44.590 --> 00:49:55.282
If I've probably sooner, sooner is better, but just realize where the feedback, who you're asking for feedback from and keep it all in perspective and know that everybody started somewhere.
00:49:55.302 --> 00:50:04.782
And it's the same thing is when we're talking about business, when people say like, you ask your friends and family about your pricing structure and they say, Oh, well, I would never pay that much for photography.
00:50:05.032 --> 00:50:07.271
Or I would never, you're never going to be in business very long.
00:50:07.271 --> 00:50:13.692
If you charge those high prices, the first thing that I always say, which always sounds a little bit harsh is I'm like, Oh, your uncle said that.
00:50:13.782 --> 00:50:14.141
It's like, yeah.
00:50:14.451 --> 00:50:16.447
How's your uncle's photography business doing?
00:50:17.507 --> 00:50:17.617
Yeah.
00:50:17.617 --> 00:50:18.016
Yeah.
00:50:18.067 --> 00:50:20.786
Let's figure out who it is that we're who, where's this coming from?
00:50:21.067 --> 00:50:22.277
Is he an entrepreneur?
00:50:22.277 --> 00:50:26.630
Does he know how much it is to stay in business and to start a business and run a profitable business?
00:50:26.661 --> 00:50:30.371
Or does he just go to work for someone every day and collect a paycheck?
00:50:31.110 --> 00:50:34.170
Because that's a very different perspective of things.
00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:39.971
So keeping all of that in mind, I think is super important for people who are wanting to get into the business.
00:50:40.485 --> 00:50:49.536
it's funny, I've had that conversation with my wife, my own wife, many a times, where she's like, I would never pay that much for photography.
00:50:49.655 --> 00:50:51.255
And it's like, I totally understand.
00:50:51.306 --> 00:50:53.815
And yet at the same time, calendar's booked.
00:50:53.925 --> 00:50:56.076
So it's like, there's a disconnect there.
00:50:56.085 --> 00:51:04.271
Some people, you know, photography different than others, and maybe she's just been spoiled because I'm just always here taking pictures.
00:51:04.271 --> 00:51:05.440
And you're the pre hired
00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:05.771
hand.
00:51:05.771 --> 00:51:06.500
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:07.070
Exactly.
00:51:07.391 --> 00:51:07.510
You
00:51:07.510 --> 00:51:16.547
know, but it's good because, as I trust my wife, love her and I take everything that she says into consideration.
00:51:16.677 --> 00:51:32.523
Yeah, and it's still, being honest with yourself and trying to figure out like, well, I know that this is working because I've tried it with others, or, I can do a quick Google search and see that there's, Ten other photographers in Indianapolis charging 10, 000 for weddings.
00:51:32.672 --> 00:51:32.893
Yes.
00:51:32.902 --> 00:51:37.083
So clearly there's a market for it and then just trust yourself And go for it.
00:51:37.092 --> 00:51:37.873
So that was wonderful.
00:51:37.882 --> 00:51:38.362
Thank you.
00:51:38.483 --> 00:51:38.833
Thank you.
00:51:38.853 --> 00:51:46.353
Well Dory we are at the end of our time here Yeah, I feel like we could talk about this all day.
00:51:46.353 --> 00:51:55.646
This has been a wonderful conversation to have Before I let you go, can you let listeners know where they can find you online and discover more about you?
00:51:55.916 --> 00:51:56.255
Sure.
00:51:56.576 --> 00:52:04.105
You can find me on Instagram and the handle there is the Dori Howell and it's D O R I E H O W E L L.
00:52:04.465 --> 00:52:07.288
And my portrait website is dorihowell.
00:52:07.288 --> 00:52:07.697
com.
00:52:08.067 --> 00:52:10.827
And then for photographers, I have some really great resources.
00:52:10.837 --> 00:52:15.538
You can get some free stuff for all about teaching business and growing your business.
00:52:15.907 --> 00:52:17.697
And that's at harmonyhangout.
00:52:18.148 --> 00:52:18.807
com.
00:52:19.304 --> 00:52:22.634
And all of those things are linked all throughout the place.
00:52:22.644 --> 00:52:26.474
So you can find one through the other, but, I do a lot of posting on Instagram.
00:52:26.485 --> 00:52:27.585
I'm loving reels.
00:52:27.585 --> 00:52:34.965
I'm getting ready to go film another reel on my suit on my series called the struggling photographers hotline, which is super fun.
00:52:35.355 --> 00:52:37.144
So that'll be posted later today, but yeah.
00:52:37.195 --> 00:52:39.340
So Instagram, the Dorie Howell and then hangout.
00:52:39.340 --> 00:52:40.092
com.
00:52:41.163 --> 00:52:43.293
I'm going to put links to all those things in the show notes.
00:52:43.932 --> 00:52:47.222
Dory, again, thank you so much for coming on, sharing everything that you did.
00:52:47.262 --> 00:52:49.192
I really look forward to keeping up with you in the future.
00:52:49.452 --> 00:52:49.733
Great.
00:52:49.773 --> 00:52:50.952
Raymond, thank you so much.
00:52:51.969 --> 00:52:54.710
!All right, let's go ahead and recap what we have learned today.
00:52:54.969 --> 00:52:56.179
Number one, practice.
00:52:56.449 --> 00:53:05.279
if you want to build any real technical skills in photography, that requires continuous practice and a willingness to make and learn from mistakes.
00:53:05.659 --> 00:53:12.860
So, start by experimenting with different lighting conditions, you know, if, morning, afternoon, evening, all different lighting conditions outside.
00:53:13.110 --> 00:53:18.014
And then test out different camera settings with your camera, to figure out how to best capture it.
00:53:18.355 --> 00:53:21.295
Number two, understand your client needs.
00:53:21.675 --> 00:53:36.014
If you want to create authentic, emotional, images that resonate right with your clients, that requires, an understanding of your clients and respecting their personal preferences and again, cultural backgrounds.
00:53:36.295 --> 00:53:39.715
So try to implement a questionnaire, if you're shooting portraits, right?
00:53:39.715 --> 00:53:42.704
Try to gather detailed information about your clients.
00:53:42.715 --> 00:53:48.822
One thing that I would always ask is, are you two comfortable with displaying your affection, for each other in public?
00:53:49.052 --> 00:53:50.181
You know, kissing in public.
00:53:50.567 --> 00:54:00.617
Something like that would determine whether or not we're going to have a session, downtown where it might be busy, or if we're just going to do their engagement session at a local park where there might be less people.
00:54:01.177 --> 00:54:04.117
And lastly, adapt your business approach.
00:54:04.467 --> 00:54:10.782
If you want to stay relevant, that means adapting to, different client preferences and then.
00:54:11.076 --> 00:54:13.666
From there, trying to simplify your business process.
00:54:13.666 --> 00:54:20.306
Because if you want to have a standup business, you have to be able to cater to your client.
00:54:20.527 --> 00:54:28.940
And if you have a range of clients, the better that you can cater to them while still staying true to your business, the better off you are going to be.
00:54:29.250 --> 00:54:31.719
So try to keep that initial client communication.
00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:41.445
rather concise, and short because I'll tell you what, overwhelming them in that first initial email is one of the quickest ways to get ghosted real, real quick.
00:54:41.534 --> 00:54:43.134
So, that's all that I got.
00:54:43.164 --> 00:54:50.795
I want to hear your biggest takeaway in the free and amazing beginner photography podcast community, which you can join right now over at beginner photopod.
00:54:50.795 --> 00:54:52.695
com forward slash group.
00:54:53.315 --> 00:54:55.074
Again, that is it for today until next week.
00:54:55.074 --> 00:54:59.154
Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow.
00:54:59.525 --> 00:54:59.934
Talk soon.
