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I'm rich to Keeney. We have a great guest on
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this morning, doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader,
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How eq via Empathy Transforms leadership for better profit, productivity,
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and innovation. The book was out this year, twenty twenty five,
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and there's so many things to talk to doctor Melissa
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about this morning, and I am so glad to have
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you on. Welcome doctor, Well.
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Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
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to be amongst people that are truly significant.
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Tell our listening audience about yourself, maybe even starting with
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your hometown.
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So, my dad was military, so I don't really have
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a hometown. It was, you know, kind of kind of
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the gypsy life. Two years here and two years there
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and wherever. Right now, I'm in Oklahoma, but I kind
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of consider myself by coastal so I'm just kind of
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I go where I'm great.
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Where did you get your college education?
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So my first set of degrees was in music, and
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I did my undergrad at the University of Northern Iowa
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and my master's at Yale and the doctorate at the
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University of Kansas. But then after that, when I started
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really following this empathy route, I went back to you know,
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shore up what I thought. We're some things I could
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do better. So I have an MBA from Georgia Southwestern
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University and a Master's of Science and Data Analytics from
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Western Governors, and I'm finishing up my doctorate in Interdisciplinary
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Leadership from Creighton in Omaha.
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Very good. That is one big wall of degrees that
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you have.
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It's two completely separate lives.
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It's wild. Based on that and being a fellow musician
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and having interviewed maybe a hundred polymaths have you're walking
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as a musician. You are a scientist though social scientist, psychologist.
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Would you consider yourself a polymath who taps into different
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parts of your brain because of that music?
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You know, I hadn't considered it like that, but I
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always knew that that music part had a lot more
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going on on the math side of things than maybe
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even I gave it credit for when I was younger.
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Oh yes, I think it's inescapable as a musician to
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know that part of the brain takes over in conversations
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like the one that we're having today on being an
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empathic leader. Let's face it, for those of you leaders
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who are out there who are not musicians, it's not
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too late to learn percussion guitar. That's right, would when piano.
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So that's that's a little spark there for you today. Okay,
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let's talk about significance. When you think of someone who's
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lived a truly significant life, what qualifies that person and
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what actions come to mind.
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I was thinking about this because I think there's a
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difference between being significant and being truly significant, because significance,
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in my mind, it means that you're changing the world somehow,
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even if you're changing it one heart at a time.
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But there are people that do significant things that are
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really negative, So I don't think that's truly significant. I
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think truly significant is changing the world in big and
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small ways in a positive.
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You're here that ties into your vision for the empathic leader,
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and where that began. Tell us about at what point
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you shifted from this so called soft skill to it
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being a strategic leadership imperative.
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It came from watching so many people leaders in particular,
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that just could not harness that human to human skill.
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And it's a skill. I use that word very purposely.
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People think of empathy as this soft, fluffy puppies and
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rainbows thing you have and it had.
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When you heard that, pers what's up there in that
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cranium of yours? We need to reshuffle the deck.
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I did, actually, and it was somebody in healthcare. And
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it's because this is someone who in healthcare, you're supposed
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to have more empathy, not less. And this person I
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had some pulmonary embolite. I was having some medical problems
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and I had gone into work. Sometimes you have to
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take a job for the benefits, you know how that goes.
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And I had been in the emergency room overnight. But
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I hadn't been there that long. I'd only been there
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about three weeks. And I told her what had happened
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and that, you know, I didn't have the time off.
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I hadn't been there long enough to be able to
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do anything. And I'm like, I really need time to
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go home. You know, this is a medical facility. You
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guys should have empathy for this. And she looked at
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me and gave me the poudy face and walked away.
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And that's the point at which I'm like, that is it.
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We have got to start treating each other better, because
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this is ridiculous. If we can't take care of each other,
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everything is just going to devolve into chaos, and this
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is stupid.
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I want a call to action to take from a
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person that was so empty. That emptiness is the same
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as the gap, I think, and I love hanging around
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people that talk about gaps. You pose a powerful question.
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Is the gap between your vision and your reality widening?
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Tell me about that.
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Well, most leaders that I've worked with have a vision
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of what they want, you know, they have these great
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ideas and they want to be able to create change,
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create significant change. But there's a gap and they can't
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figure out why. And a lot of times that gap
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is in getting people to actually follow. They don't have
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that human to human connection that empathy gives. So they
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might have all this great stuff going on in their head,
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but it's not actionable, and that means that it falls flat,
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and that's a shame.
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Speaking of the medical industry, my mom was the registered
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nurse and I always thought, uh doctor that she got
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her degree in the nineteen thirties and early forties in
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bedside manner, And over the course of the years I
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have become almost like that progressive commercial where the people
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are telling others what they should do or how they
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should act. And I find every one of those commercials
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to be funny. But when someone in the medical industry
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does not have good bedside manner and they're looking at
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a charge instead of looking at me, I tell them,
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can I have a word with you about empathy and
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about looking at me in the eyes and squaring up
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and just talk to me? And I want you to
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comment on that whole notion of the lack of bedside
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manner in general across all industries, because I think that
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that's it's a raging dissease today.
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I agree, and I think it's because people don't really
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understand what empathy is and how it can be used.
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We have this idea that it's all about feeling right,
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I feel what you feel, and that's one kind of empathy,
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but there's actually forty three different definitions. That's just one,
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and the one that we miss is cognitive empathy. The
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real definition of empathy is being able to take the
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perspective of the other person, to be able to understand them.
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So if I'm a physician and I'm going in and
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I'm talking to somebody, I haven't stopped to think what
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it might be like for them on the worst possible
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day of their lives. I am not showing the empathy
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and I'm gonna fall short. And like you said, that's
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not just healthcare, that's across all industries. It's that perspective
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taking peace topay.
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Cognitive empathy is that, Yeah, this is this is I'm
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gonna take a little bird walk on this. For all
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the singles that listen to our show, is it possible
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that they're approaching finding their right one in the wrong
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way because they haven't thought about cognitive empathy with their partner?
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Yes?
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Absolutely, Okay, beyond that, absolutely, yes, there is. You got
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to you mean the doctor Melissa Robbinson explanation of why
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emotional intelligence is important to recognize in dating.
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Oh, it's hugely important. So when they started talking about
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emotional intelligence, first book came out in ninety five. That
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was Daniel Goleman's book on emotional intelligence and how it's
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better than regular intelligence IQ, Right, are more important, I
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should say not better. When he did that, he put
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empathy into that tool bag, right, all these emotional intelligence tools.
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You've got communication and motivation and all this stuff. And
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I agree that empathy is part of that, but I
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think empathy actually has to come first. You have to
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be able to take perspective and understand what's going on
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with the other person before you reach into that toolbag
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of those other skills. Otherwise you don't know if you're
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reaching in your tool bag for a screwdriver or a hammer.
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So those emotional intelligence skills aren't being used as well
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as they could. The flip side of this too, and
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it doesn't matter if we're talking dating or leading large organizations,
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is that empathy and compassion are two different things. Empathy
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is strictly I'm in perspective with this person. It's what
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Brene Brown calls being in the suck. It's being in
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that feeling, but you're not doing anything. Compassion is the action.
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Empathy is what you feel. Compassion is what you do.
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If you haven't plugged empathy in first, you end up
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taking the wrong kind of compassion and it can actually
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blow up on you. Like talking about relationships, you know,
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when you have that argument where one person just wants
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to be heard, that's empathy, and the other person just
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wants to do something, wants to fix it, wants to
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take care of it, that's compassion. They're not in line,
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they're not in sync. So now you're having relationship problems
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even though both people are very well intended.
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If you listen deeply to what doctor Melissa Robinson just said,
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if you're spending all of your prime time in your
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twenties in a company that lacks empathic leadership or empathy
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as a core of value, and then you try to
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meet someone and you don't have that skill set in
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your toolbox, then it's like you've been incubating in this
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environment without empathy. So how can you transfer at the
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end of the day and transfer a skill set that
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you don't even practice during the day over to your
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loved one that you want to spend the rest of
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your life with.
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So first thing to keep in mind is that having
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empathy does not mean you don't have boundaries. So if
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you're in this kind of a toxic workplace that doesn't
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have empathy, that doesn't mean you couldn't or that you
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shouldn't or that you shouldn't be practicing it. It does
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mean you're going to have to have boundaries. This idea
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that empathy means you just give and give and give
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and give is wrong. That's being a pushover, that's being
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a doormat. That's not empathy. If you're going to have empathy,
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you have to start with having empathy for yourself. Charity
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starts at home, and that begins by having boundaries, especially
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in those toxic places. Now, how this transfers is that
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you start with one question, because you got to start
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out easy when you're learning or practicing a new skill, right,
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and that one question is how would I feel if
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that were me? And I'm seeing it through their eyes
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and not mine. You're taking perspective of the other person,
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but through their point of view, not yours. And the
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first couple of times people try to do this, it's
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hard because they'll automatically flip into what their point of
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view is, but it's through the eyes of the other person.
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So now as you go home and you're you know,
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with who, your partner, whoever you're with, you start to
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try to see the world through their eyes, and that's
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where you begin to practice it once again.
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The Golden rule poax us in the eyeballs.
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It's funny how that comes back up. Wisdom comes up
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from all sorts.
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Of Please tell you this doctor that the Golden rule
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was put in our toolbox when we were four and
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five years old, and it's remained at the top with
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all the most useful screwdrivers and hammers.
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I would even take it one step further, because if
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the golden rule is do unto others as you would
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have them do unto you, then this is the platinum
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rule of doing to others as they would want.
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That's right. That's a new toolbox, that's a new skill set.
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And with that bit of wisdom from doctor Melissa Robinson,
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tell us about where we can purchase your book, maybe
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even get an autograph copy. And then how can people
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contact you to be a keynote speaker so you can
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shake up their organization.
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I would love to do that. You can find me
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at my website which is eq VIA that's Vias and
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victor Ia Empathy, and there is this form there to
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contact me. I would be happy to send an autograph
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copy to anybody who would want it. And also if
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you want me to come and speak, my newsletter is there.
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You can also get my book at Amazon and Barnes
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and Noble and the usual places. And right now, my
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ted X was just released about a month and a
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half ago and we're at about sixty thousand views. So
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if someone just wants to know a little more about
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who I am and what I'm about, I can catch
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me there too.
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We will be right back with doctor Melissa Robinson talking
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a little bit more about the empathic leader. After this
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We are back with doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The
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Empathic Leader, How EQ via empathy transforms leadership for better profit,
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productivity and innovation. As a fellow author, what was your
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second choice for a title of that book.
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I don't know that I had a second choice, because
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I really wanted a title that summed up exactly what
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I wanted to say, and to do it in a
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way that maybe would make people rethink what empathy is
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instead of just the same old yeah, yeah, it's m
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feel what you feel. So I actually worked quite a
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bit on that title.
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I want to you budding authors out there, when you
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land on the right title, don't shift away from it,
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because it remained solid. Tell us about some of the
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the challenges that you had in dialing down this gigantic
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brain of yours who centers on empathy into a twelve
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minute ted talk.
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That was a challenge. The hardest thing was just getting
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rid of all the fluff because there was so much
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I wanted to say, but I wanted something that was
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really going to resonate with my audience and give them
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some kind of tool that they could take away and
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use like now. So once I figured that out and
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just made sure I didn't you step over the line
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and just kind of go off on a tangent, suddenly
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it became a couple of life.
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You were to repeat the power statements in that Ted
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talk right now, as if you were instructing our listening
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audience on how to move this move empathy from soft
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skill to a real hard skill. At the top of
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the toolbox. What are the power statements?
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My big one is always to keep in mind that
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empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, whether
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it's self empathy or empathy for others. So the second
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you find yourself looking through your own eyes and placing
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judgment on someone else or even on your own actions,
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that's not empathy, and you need to take a step
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back and look closer. And that's where the other power
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statement comes in, which is critical, not caring. You need
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to approach looking at this stuff with cognitive empathy, so
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you're looking at it critically like a computer you're looking
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at data, you're looking for patterns, you're looking to understand,
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but you're not assigning emotional value on everything, which is
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hard for us to do as humans. That's really hard
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to do. But the more you can really take a
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step back and be critical, not caring, and by caring
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I just mean assigning emotional value that's going to lead
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to judgment, the more you're going to be able to
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really make those connections that are going to allow empathy
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to happen.
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I love what you're saying, but I want to position
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that in a bonus question for you against my friend
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Kim Scott who wrote Radical Candor and Okay, so I
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want I want there to be some clarity here about it,
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because Radical Candor is this interesting book that talks about
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saying things with clarity because you care so much and
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there's got to be some balance there. You just said critical,
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not caring, empathetic without self judgment. How can you be
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radically candid and empathetic and inspirational at the same time.
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I think here is where you start getting into the
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difference between being kind and being nice, Because if you're
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talking about radical candor and being clear with the right intention,
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with the intention of understanding the other person, with the
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understanding of helping them, with the understanding of understanding yourself better.
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So there isn't judgment. There's still room to be radically honest,
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but you're always approaching it with kindness. Nice is something
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that's a societal construct. It's what we do to kind
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of make you know, getting along with other human beings easier.
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It's social lubrication. But kindness is where you're actually putting
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the empathy into use, even though it isn't always nice.
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Empathy is not always nice, but empathy is always kind.
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And if you're going to use something like radical.
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Candidate social lubrication. I did. It's like a card that
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one goes down in the lexicon for twenty twenty five.
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You just won the great prize. Being not is social lubrication?
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Did I catch that? Rhyme? Tell me give me one
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other example of medication so I can take it to
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a dinner party tonight.
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When someone says how are you, and you say, oh,
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I'm fine. I mean you're being nice. You're being you know,
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that's the manner. That's what maybe you think you should say,
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even though the real answer might be, you know, I'm
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not really doing well today and I really could use
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a little help. But we don't say that because we
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want the interaction to be easy. We wanted to slide through.
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We want it to be you know, just like the
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wheels of a machine just keep clicking. So it's the
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things we do to make ourselves and other people more comfortable.
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But maybe isn't kind to either them or ourselves.
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Your ears are going to burn off because I'm going
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to use that to one hundred people and they're going
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to go, where did that come from? And is that
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the toditle of the next book? That is so great?
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Thank you for that. Let's get down to the final
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few questions for you. When leaders actually practice empathy consistently,
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how have you seen it change them not only in
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the workplace, but in their community, how they treat their neighbors,
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much less, how they treat their spouse's children and grandchildren.
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When they actually are able to get a hold of
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that skill of taking the perspective of other people, it'll
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blow their world wide open, because all of a sudden,
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they're seeing life from a perspective. You know, they start
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with this small perspective that's just themselves, and all of
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a sudden, it's like, wow, this is the entire world,
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and you know, I mean sometimes it can be a
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little overwhelming at first. But the thing with being a leader,
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and this comes from my artistic background, is whether you
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like it or not, you are always on stage. Someone
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is always watching you, and they're learning from what you're doing.
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So you are creating culture, whether you mean to or not.
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And by actually enacting these empathetic skills and taking that perspective,
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people are watching you, which means now this is rippling
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out the next thing. You know, without even trying, you
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have an empathic organization and you didn't even have to
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put it put it in a mission revision statement.
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That is great. You make my musical brain go into terminology.
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And remember I'm a percussionist, so is we Christnda. We
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have dynamics and music and you go high and you
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go low. Is there a musical parallel term for a
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non empathic person.
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I would put either look at it in terms of
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like an EBB and flow. Yes, if you're talking crescendo day,
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crescendo right, because it's it's like more sound waves less
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sound waves, or in a way you could almost look
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at it like the pendulum swing. That's right, how you
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moved from one side to the other because salty tastes
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so much more salty after you've had sex, and vice versa.
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Why do I think of staccato? What does staccato mean
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to you? And that kind of conn kind of a
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uneven shortened dry bumpy something like that, just super short dry. Okay,
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we're gonna have to have you back on again, if
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nothing else to play the social lubrication game and have
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in your book that would when people read it or
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going to go How do I need to red circle
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that one? And I'm going to use that one? Is
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there any other terminology that you've created? Well?
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Well, since I talk about using both emotional and cognitive
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empathy because I think you I actually think you have
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to have all three. You have to have cognitive, emotional,
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and self empathy to work well, but particularly emotional and
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cognitive empathy. I talk about keeping a cool head.
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And a warm heart cool head.
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Because I think it sums it up pretty well.
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Why is temperature a part of that?
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Well, just this idea of you don't want to lose
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all of your emotion, you know, warm hearted, You don't
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give up your emotional like you were talking earlier about
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being in a non non empathetic environment and then trying
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to go home. You don't want it to all be
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in the head, but you also don't want it to
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all be in the heart. There has to be that balance,
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you know. So that's kind of.
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What ac suits to me. You know what, doctor you've got.
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You've written this great book. Sixty thousand people have heard
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your ted talk, So the seeds are being planted. But
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there's something missing though, Yeah, because there will be another
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book that comes out next year on emotional intelligence, and
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another and another. But what's it going to take to
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change communities and change companies and change hearts. Is it
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going to take the next fifty years or what's the
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shake up point?
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It's going to take a grassroots movement, even though I'm
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talking to leaders because they affect so many people. This
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stuff has got to start at home. It has to
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start with self leadership and a single person, and then
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it can start to grow. Which is why my next
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book is actually going to be about empathy and people,
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empathy and humans and how we relate to each other
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day to day, because I think that's really that's really
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the only way change has ever been done. Is a
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grassroots movement and people saying, yeah, you keep going like this.
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That's exactly right. What a great way to close the show.
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Thank you so much for being on today. That is
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doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader. You need
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to read it, people, and then read her books. Her
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other books coming up too. You want to give final
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thoughts other than what you just brilliantly stated on it
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starts at home.
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I think that's the perfect place to end. Don't wait
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for someone else to do it. Be the change you
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want to see in the world.
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And he said, stop talking about it, just start to change.
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And by the way, these nonsensical New Year resolutions, there's
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nothing a resolution doesn't start January the first You can
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start today with the change, read this book and start
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to embrace change. And I think the other thing I
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would add is do it with someone else. Make that
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partner with the change. So you're not writing solo again,
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you know, trying to alter yourself. So have an accountability
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partner who also wants to change as well. Doctor. Thank
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you so much for being on. You were just great.
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How about coming back on next year to give us
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a State of the Union address on empathy and remember
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we're going to be talking about music and the empathic
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leader at the same time that you are a very
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joy per person. Thank you for being on and folks,
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as we always say, we wish you success, but on
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the real avenue you should take and walk down called significance.
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Have a great week.
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I'm rich to Keeney. We have a great guest on
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this morning, doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader,
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How eq via Empathy Transforms leadership for better profit, productivity,
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and innovation. The book was out this year, twenty twenty five,
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and there's so many things to talk to doctor Melissa
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about this morning, and I am so glad to have
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you on. Welcome doctor, Well.
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Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
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to be amongst people that are truly significant.
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Tell our listening audience about yourself, maybe even starting with
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your hometown.
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So, my dad was military, so I don't really have
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a hometown. It was, you know, kind of kind of
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the gypsy life. Two years here and two years there
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and wherever. Right now, I'm in Oklahoma, but I kind
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of consider myself by coastal so I'm just kind of
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I go where I'm great.
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Where did you get your college education?
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So my first set of degrees was in music, and
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I did my undergrad at the University of Northern Iowa
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and my master's at Yale and the doctorate at the
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University of Kansas. But then after that, when I started
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really following this empathy route, I went back to you know,
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shore up what I thought. We're some things I could
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do better. So I have an MBA from Georgia Southwestern
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University and a Master's of Science and Data Analytics from
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Western Governors, and I'm finishing up my doctorate in Interdisciplinary
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Leadership from Creighton in Omaha.
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Very good. That is one big wall of degrees that
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you have.
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It's two completely separate lives.
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It's wild. Based on that and being a fellow musician
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and having interviewed maybe a hundred polymaths have you're walking
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as a musician. You are a scientist though social scientist, psychologist.
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Would you consider yourself a polymath who taps into different
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parts of your brain because of that music?
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You know, I hadn't considered it like that, but I
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always knew that that music part had a lot more
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going on on the math side of things than maybe
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even I gave it credit for when I was younger.
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Oh yes, I think it's inescapable as a musician to
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know that part of the brain takes over in conversations
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like the one that we're having today on being an
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empathic leader. Let's face it, for those of you leaders
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who are out there who are not musicians, it's not
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too late to learn percussion guitar. That's right, would when piano.
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So that's that's a little spark there for you today. Okay,
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let's talk about significance. When you think of someone who's
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lived a truly significant life, what qualifies that person and
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what actions come to mind.
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I was thinking about this because I think there's a
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difference between being significant and being truly significant, because significance,
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in my mind, it means that you're changing the world somehow,
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even if you're changing it one heart at a time.
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But there are people that do significant things that are
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really negative, So I don't think that's truly significant. I
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think truly significant is changing the world in big and
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small ways in a positive.
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You're here that ties into your vision for the empathic leader,
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and where that began. Tell us about at what point
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you shifted from this so called soft skill to it
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being a strategic leadership imperative.
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It came from watching so many people leaders in particular,
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that just could not harness that human to human skill.
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And it's a skill. I use that word very purposely.
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People think of empathy as this soft, fluffy puppies and
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rainbows thing you have and it had.
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When you heard that, pers what's up there in that
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cranium of yours? We need to reshuffle the deck.
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I did, actually, and it was somebody in healthcare. And
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it's because this is someone who in healthcare, you're supposed
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to have more empathy, not less. And this person I
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had some pulmonary embolite. I was having some medical problems
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and I had gone into work. Sometimes you have to
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take a job for the benefits, you know how that goes.
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And I had been in the emergency room overnight. But
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I hadn't been there that long. I'd only been there
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about three weeks. And I told her what had happened
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and that, you know, I didn't have the time off.
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I hadn't been there long enough to be able to
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do anything. And I'm like, I really need time to
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go home. You know, this is a medical facility. You
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guys should have empathy for this. And she looked at
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me and gave me the poudy face and walked away.
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And that's the point at which I'm like, that is it.
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We have got to start treating each other better, because
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this is ridiculous. If we can't take care of each other,
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everything is just going to devolve into chaos, and this
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is stupid.
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I want a call to action to take from a
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person that was so empty. That emptiness is the same
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as the gap, I think, and I love hanging around
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people that talk about gaps. You pose a powerful question.
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Is the gap between your vision and your reality widening?
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Tell me about that.
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Well, most leaders that I've worked with have a vision
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of what they want, you know, they have these great
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ideas and they want to be able to create change,
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create significant change. But there's a gap and they can't
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figure out why. And a lot of times that gap
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is in getting people to actually follow. They don't have
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that human to human connection that empathy gives. So they
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might have all this great stuff going on in their head,
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but it's not actionable, and that means that it falls flat,
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and that's a shame.
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Speaking of the medical industry, my mom was the registered
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nurse and I always thought, uh doctor that she got
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her degree in the nineteen thirties and early forties in
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bedside manner, And over the course of the years I
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have become almost like that progressive commercial where the people
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are telling others what they should do or how they
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should act. And I find every one of those commercials
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to be funny. But when someone in the medical industry
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does not have good bedside manner and they're looking at
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a charge instead of looking at me, I tell them,
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can I have a word with you about empathy and
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about looking at me in the eyes and squaring up
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and just talk to me? And I want you to
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comment on that whole notion of the lack of bedside
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manner in general across all industries, because I think that
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that's it's a raging dissease today.
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I agree, and I think it's because people don't really
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understand what empathy is and how it can be used.
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We have this idea that it's all about feeling right,
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I feel what you feel, and that's one kind of empathy,
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but there's actually forty three different definitions. That's just one,
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and the one that we miss is cognitive empathy. The
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real definition of empathy is being able to take the
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perspective of the other person, to be able to understand them.
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So if I'm a physician and I'm going in and
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I'm talking to somebody, I haven't stopped to think what
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it might be like for them on the worst possible
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day of their lives. I am not showing the empathy
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and I'm gonna fall short. And like you said, that's
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not just healthcare, that's across all industries. It's that perspective
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taking peace topay.
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Cognitive empathy is that, Yeah, this is this is I'm
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gonna take a little bird walk on this. For all
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the singles that listen to our show, is it possible
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that they're approaching finding their right one in the wrong
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way because they haven't thought about cognitive empathy with their partner?
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Yes?
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Absolutely, Okay, beyond that, absolutely, yes, there is. You got
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to you mean the doctor Melissa Robbinson explanation of why
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emotional intelligence is important to recognize in dating.
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Oh, it's hugely important. So when they started talking about
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emotional intelligence, first book came out in ninety five. That
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was Daniel Goleman's book on emotional intelligence and how it's
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better than regular intelligence IQ, Right, are more important, I
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should say not better. When he did that, he put
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empathy into that tool bag, right, all these emotional intelligence tools.
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You've got communication and motivation and all this stuff. And
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I agree that empathy is part of that, but I
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think empathy actually has to come first. You have to
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be able to take perspective and understand what's going on
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with the other person before you reach into that toolbag
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of those other skills. Otherwise you don't know if you're
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reaching in your tool bag for a screwdriver or a hammer.
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So those emotional intelligence skills aren't being used as well
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as they could. The flip side of this too, and
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it doesn't matter if we're talking dating or leading large organizations,
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is that empathy and compassion are two different things. Empathy
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is strictly I'm in perspective with this person. It's what
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Brene Brown calls being in the suck. It's being in
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that feeling, but you're not doing anything. Compassion is the action.
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Empathy is what you feel. Compassion is what you do.
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If you haven't plugged empathy in first, you end up
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taking the wrong kind of compassion and it can actually
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blow up on you. Like talking about relationships, you know,
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when you have that argument where one person just wants
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to be heard, that's empathy, and the other person just
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wants to do something, wants to fix it, wants to
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take care of it, that's compassion. They're not in line,
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they're not in sync. So now you're having relationship problems
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even though both people are very well intended.
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If you listen deeply to what doctor Melissa Robinson just said,
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if you're spending all of your prime time in your
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twenties in a company that lacks empathic leadership or empathy
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as a core of value, and then you try to
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meet someone and you don't have that skill set in
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your toolbox, then it's like you've been incubating in this
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environment without empathy. So how can you transfer at the
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end of the day and transfer a skill set that
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you don't even practice during the day over to your
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loved one that you want to spend the rest of
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your life with.
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So first thing to keep in mind is that having
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empathy does not mean you don't have boundaries. So if
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you're in this kind of a toxic workplace that doesn't
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have empathy, that doesn't mean you couldn't or that you
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shouldn't or that you shouldn't be practicing it. It does
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mean you're going to have to have boundaries. This idea
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that empathy means you just give and give and give
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and give is wrong. That's being a pushover, that's being
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a doormat. That's not empathy. If you're going to have empathy,
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you have to start with having empathy for yourself. Charity
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starts at home, and that begins by having boundaries, especially
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in those toxic places. Now, how this transfers is that
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you start with one question, because you got to start
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out easy when you're learning or practicing a new skill, right,
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and that one question is how would I feel if
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that were me? And I'm seeing it through their eyes
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and not mine. You're taking perspective of the other person,
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but through their point of view, not yours. And the
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first couple of times people try to do this, it's
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hard because they'll automatically flip into what their point of
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view is, but it's through the eyes of the other person.
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So now as you go home and you're you know,
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with who, your partner, whoever you're with, you start to
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try to see the world through their eyes, and that's
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where you begin to practice it once again.
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The Golden rule poax us in the eyeballs.
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It's funny how that comes back up. Wisdom comes up
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from all sorts.
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Of Please tell you this doctor that the Golden rule
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was put in our toolbox when we were four and
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five years old, and it's remained at the top with
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all the most useful screwdrivers and hammers.
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I would even take it one step further, because if
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the golden rule is do unto others as you would
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have them do unto you, then this is the platinum
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rule of doing to others as they would want.
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That's right. That's a new toolbox, that's a new skill set.
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And with that bit of wisdom from doctor Melissa Robinson,
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tell us about where we can purchase your book, maybe
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even get an autograph copy. And then how can people
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contact you to be a keynote speaker so you can
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shake up their organization.
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I would love to do that. You can find me
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at my website which is eq VIA that's Vias and
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victor Ia Empathy, and there is this form there to
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contact me. I would be happy to send an autograph
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copy to anybody who would want it. And also if
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you want me to come and speak, my newsletter is there.
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You can also get my book at Amazon and Barnes
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00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.279
and Noble and the usual places. And right now, my
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ted X was just released about a month and a
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half ago and we're at about sixty thousand views. So
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if someone just wants to know a little more about
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who I am and what I'm about, I can catch
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me there too.
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We will be right back with doctor Melissa Robinson talking
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a little bit more about the empathic leader. After this
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message from the one and only Marcus Aurelius.
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This is Marcus Aurelius reappearing to proclaim that truly Significant
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waste no more time arguing what a good man should
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most true significant people in your life with the truly
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Significant community. How bold of you to make your next
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chapter matter and be truly significant.
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We are back with doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The
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Empathic Leader, How EQ via empathy transforms leadership for better profit,
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productivity and innovation. As a fellow author, what was your
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second choice for a title of that book.
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I don't know that I had a second choice, because
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I really wanted a title that summed up exactly what
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I wanted to say, and to do it in a
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way that maybe would make people rethink what empathy is
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instead of just the same old yeah, yeah, it's m
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feel what you feel. So I actually worked quite a
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bit on that title.
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I want to you budding authors out there, when you
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land on the right title, don't shift away from it,
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because it remained solid. Tell us about some of the
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the challenges that you had in dialing down this gigantic
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brain of yours who centers on empathy into a twelve
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minute ted talk.
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That was a challenge. The hardest thing was just getting
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rid of all the fluff because there was so much
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I wanted to say, but I wanted something that was
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really going to resonate with my audience and give them
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some kind of tool that they could take away and
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use like now. So once I figured that out and
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just made sure I didn't you step over the line
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and just kind of go off on a tangent, suddenly
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it became a couple of life.
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You were to repeat the power statements in that Ted
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talk right now, as if you were instructing our listening
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audience on how to move this move empathy from soft
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skill to a real hard skill. At the top of
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the toolbox. What are the power statements?
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My big one is always to keep in mind that
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empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, whether
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it's self empathy or empathy for others. So the second
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you find yourself looking through your own eyes and placing
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judgment on someone else or even on your own actions,
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that's not empathy, and you need to take a step
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back and look closer. And that's where the other power
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statement comes in, which is critical, not caring. You need
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to approach looking at this stuff with cognitive empathy, so
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you're looking at it critically like a computer you're looking
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at data, you're looking for patterns, you're looking to understand,
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but you're not assigning emotional value on everything, which is
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hard for us to do as humans. That's really hard
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to do. But the more you can really take a
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step back and be critical, not caring, and by caring
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I just mean assigning emotional value that's going to lead
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to judgment, the more you're going to be able to
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really make those connections that are going to allow empathy
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to happen.
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I love what you're saying, but I want to position
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that in a bonus question for you against my friend
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Kim Scott who wrote Radical Candor and Okay, so I
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want I want there to be some clarity here about it,
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because Radical Candor is this interesting book that talks about
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saying things with clarity because you care so much and
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there's got to be some balance there. You just said critical,
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not caring, empathetic without self judgment. How can you be
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radically candid and empathetic and inspirational at the same time.
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I think here is where you start getting into the
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difference between being kind and being nice, Because if you're
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talking about radical candor and being clear with the right intention,
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with the intention of understanding the other person, with the
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understanding of helping them, with the understanding of understanding yourself better.
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So there isn't judgment. There's still room to be radically honest,
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but you're always approaching it with kindness. Nice is something
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that's a societal construct. It's what we do to kind
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of make you know, getting along with other human beings easier.
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It's social lubrication. But kindness is where you're actually putting
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the empathy into use, even though it isn't always nice.
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Empathy is not always nice, but empathy is always kind.
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And if you're going to use something like radical.
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Candidate social lubrication. I did. It's like a card that
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one goes down in the lexicon for twenty twenty five.
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You just won the great prize. Being not is social lubrication?
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Did I catch that? Rhyme? Tell me give me one
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other example of medication so I can take it to
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a dinner party tonight.
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When someone says how are you, and you say, oh,
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I'm fine. I mean you're being nice. You're being you know,
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that's the manner. That's what maybe you think you should say,
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even though the real answer might be, you know, I'm
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not really doing well today and I really could use
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a little help. But we don't say that because we
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want the interaction to be easy. We wanted to slide through.
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We want it to be you know, just like the
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wheels of a machine just keep clicking. So it's the
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things we do to make ourselves and other people more comfortable.
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But maybe isn't kind to either them or ourselves.
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Your ears are going to burn off because I'm going
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to use that to one hundred people and they're going
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to go, where did that come from? And is that
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the toditle of the next book? That is so great?
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Thank you for that. Let's get down to the final
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few questions for you. When leaders actually practice empathy consistently,
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how have you seen it change them not only in
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the workplace, but in their community, how they treat their neighbors,
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much less, how they treat their spouse's children and grandchildren.
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When they actually are able to get a hold of
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that skill of taking the perspective of other people, it'll
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blow their world wide open, because all of a sudden,
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they're seeing life from a perspective. You know, they start
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with this small perspective that's just themselves, and all of
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a sudden, it's like, wow, this is the entire world,
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and you know, I mean sometimes it can be a
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little overwhelming at first. But the thing with being a leader,
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and this comes from my artistic background, is whether you
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like it or not, you are always on stage. Someone
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is always watching you, and they're learning from what you're doing.
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So you are creating culture, whether you mean to or not.
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And by actually enacting these empathetic skills and taking that perspective,
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people are watching you, which means now this is rippling
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out the next thing. You know, without even trying, you
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have an empathic organization and you didn't even have to
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put it put it in a mission revision statement.
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That is great. You make my musical brain go into terminology.
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And remember I'm a percussionist, so is we Christnda. We
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have dynamics and music and you go high and you
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go low. Is there a musical parallel term for a
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non empathic person.
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I would put either look at it in terms of
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like an EBB and flow. Yes, if you're talking crescendo day,
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crescendo right, because it's it's like more sound waves less
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sound waves, or in a way you could almost look
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at it like the pendulum swing. That's right, how you
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moved from one side to the other because salty tastes
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so much more salty after you've had sex, and vice versa.
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Why do I think of staccato? What does staccato mean
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to you? And that kind of conn kind of a
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uneven shortened dry bumpy something like that, just super short dry. Okay,
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we're gonna have to have you back on again, if
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nothing else to play the social lubrication game and have
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in your book that would when people read it or
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going to go How do I need to red circle
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that one? And I'm going to use that one? Is
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there any other terminology that you've created? Well?
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Well, since I talk about using both emotional and cognitive
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empathy because I think you I actually think you have
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to have all three. You have to have cognitive, emotional,
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and self empathy to work well, but particularly emotional and
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cognitive empathy. I talk about keeping a cool head.
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And a warm heart cool head.
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Because I think it sums it up pretty well.
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Why is temperature a part of that?
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Well, just this idea of you don't want to lose
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all of your emotion, you know, warm hearted, You don't
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give up your emotional like you were talking earlier about
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being in a non non empathetic environment and then trying
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to go home. You don't want it to all be
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in the head, but you also don't want it to
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all be in the heart. There has to be that balance,
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you know. So that's kind of.
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What ac suits to me. You know what, doctor you've got.
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You've written this great book. Sixty thousand people have heard
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your ted talk, So the seeds are being planted. But
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there's something missing though, Yeah, because there will be another
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book that comes out next year on emotional intelligence, and
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another and another. But what's it going to take to
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change communities and change companies and change hearts. Is it
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going to take the next fifty years or what's the
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shake up point?
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It's going to take a grassroots movement, even though I'm
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talking to leaders because they affect so many people. This
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stuff has got to start at home. It has to
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start with self leadership and a single person, and then
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it can start to grow. Which is why my next
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book is actually going to be about empathy and people,
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empathy and humans and how we relate to each other
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day to day, because I think that's really that's really
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the only way change has ever been done. Is a
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grassroots movement and people saying, yeah, you keep going like this.
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That's exactly right. What a great way to close the show.
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Thank you so much for being on today. That is
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doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader. You need
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to read it, people, and then read her books. Her
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other books coming up too. You want to give final
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thoughts other than what you just brilliantly stated on it
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starts at home.
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I think that's the perfect place to end. Don't wait
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for someone else to do it. Be the change you
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want to see in the world.
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And he said, stop talking about it, just start to change.
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And by the way, these nonsensical New Year resolutions, there's
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nothing a resolution doesn't start January the first You can
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start today with the change, read this book and start
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to embrace change. And I think the other thing I
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would add is do it with someone else. Make that
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partner with the change. So you're not writing solo again,
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you know, trying to alter yourself. So have an accountability
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partner who also wants to change as well. Doctor. Thank
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you so much for being on. You were just great.
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How about coming back on next year to give us
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a State of the Union address on empathy and remember
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we're going to be talking about music and the empathic
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leader at the same time that you are a very
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joy per person. Thank you for being on and folks,
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as we always say, we wish you success, but on
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the real avenue you should take and walk down called significance.
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Have a great week.
