Cactoid Labs - Generative Art

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That's some watering. Yeah, I still have my refrigerator coming from the studio here tomorrow

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And then I can have some cold diet Dr. Pepper's

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But I'm living I'm roughing it new studio new rules. No diet Dr. Pepper

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I think that's what I'm gonna try to do here, but I've got I've got crypto cactoid

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joining me who is my dev and and my my dear friend and

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My collector and he was my collector first then my dad then my friend. I don't I think

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But the crypto cactoid is of course from cat toy labs, which is becoming

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Your go-to place if you're if you're a fine art institution and want to have a successful drop in the NFT space

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Look no further

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Cactoid labs. Thank you. We hope to be where we're certainly we're certainly striving to be that absolutely

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I think I think you're pulling it off. Just I mean, let's just talk about it right now. You you're finishing up today

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The second drop right? This is the first individual drop. Yep, which was Monica Rizzoli sellout. Yep

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a secondary action on it everybody's getting their their output reveals now I have to admit this is my first ever

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Generative

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interaction

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The first time that I've I've bought a generative piece

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other than FX hash and that was I

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Live in shame for the fact that I bought this

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Right. I have a couple FX hash pieces

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Yeah, I bought a lot of guilt dudes

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Is gold dude my voice

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Yeah

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but

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How what's what's the feedback how are you here? What's your feeling on it? This is your is this your first

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Genes this is the first generative meant that Cactoid Labs has released which is an

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instant an instant

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Creation so to speak so so

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Monica and her team which is fantastic. We're really happy to work with them

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They supplied the code on the generative code, which is over 1800 lines of JavaScript and

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We uploaded that all to the contract and then it's yes on chain

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generative

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Generative meant which I mean essentially means that's a whole complicated thing

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I did a whole lecture on what that actually actually means

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So what we do is is we take the the contract and we we actually put the JavaScript on the contract

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Generally for these types of mints. It's a it's a p5.js

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Because the p5.js library is very very large much larger than

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the 1800 lines of code in

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Monica's JavaScript, which is also quite large for this type of generative release

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No one is taking that full p5 library and putting it in the contract

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so metadata is is basically, you know the the generative

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Creation does happen off chain and that's pretty standard

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So in other words, they're they're coming in with their they're creating a transaction by by purchasing or

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Subscribing to the mint or what have you and then they take that off chain

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Run it they go in the background and and take that information and convert it into

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Throw through the code. Is that is that what they're doing? That's right. That happens that happens on a server and

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That's how we do it. That's our artbox does it. I believe that's how FX hash does it as well. There are some on chain

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Fully on chain generative drops like the auto auto glyphs the larva larva lab

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That is fully on chain and all of all the code is there

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But yeah, if you want to use a library like like a p5

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Or a three j s want a lot of colors you want a lot of complexity all that stuff right now on ethereum is is happening off chain

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But the generation like the the transaction the code to do it everything to reproduce it

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Is is on chain what people say is that the p5 libraries are generally available. So

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No one as far as I know has uploaded the p5 library

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On to the ethereum blockchain if someone were to do it, it'd be very expensive, but then I guess we could all reference it

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That was what I was gonna ask if if somebody actually took that initiative to put it up

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On chain that you could reference it on chain and and and

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Theoretically that whole transaction there start to finish states

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I mean then you would then you would have everything that you would need

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To put it on chain and then you would have a

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Theoretically, you know, the initial generation that you see

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When you do mint you get to see the output right away and that that's all run

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via web server standard for this type of drop, okay, so so in other words, you know

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Consider me captain layperson right now, right? So I go and I mint my stuff

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I

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I now have access to it. If the process itself wasn't purely on chain

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But it's it's pretty much as as on chain as anything robust is going to be right now, right?

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Yeah, that's that's how

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That's how things work. I mean, we've we've definitely looked at all of the all the existing solutions. They're very interesting

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You know, the art block solution is is very interesting with how they have different contracts to

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Handle the randomness and you know the different elements that go into determining the randomness ours was a little different which um

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Can you walk me through it? Do you want to because i'm interested, you know and the reason I

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You know my ears perk up at randomness. Joby and I first on my three z's project

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Did did some similar tweaking where?

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You know, we we ran it we had this algorithm

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Algorithmically based to get to our numbers, but what are you doing here compared to an art blocks contract?

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Well, okay. So so well compared to the three z's project. It's very interesting

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I was going to say this is not our first generation release. I would say that

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Even I mean the three z's we could say is our first generative art release

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You know, i've done enough

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I would say projects like board apes like all these pfp projects all these

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Generative releases as well. Um, this one is more similar to art blocks in that

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We upload that generation code on on chain same as them and then we have the instant reveal

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Which is which is interesting, which you know, it's that's a whole factor as well. But otherwise, it's quite similar. So

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There's some javascript code which breaks up

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the

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Transaction hash in our case. Not everyone uses the transaction hash. Um, there's reasons for that. There's reasons why

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You would or you wouldn't use a lot of reasons why you order you wouldn't use the transaction hash and ultimately we decided to do that

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Which is the same that we did with the the three z's project and then we essentially I i i'm for it because

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I want some blockchain fit, but specifically

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Chain fingerprints to it, right? Right. That's it's important to me artistically that we're referencing the chain that it's on

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So that's where that's where i'm like a stickler for it

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You know, we argued with nifty for a while about it about you know, why it was important to me

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But but it really does. I want that. I want that mix. I want some fingerprints left from

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The actual transactions themselves. Well, it's pretty interesting

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So then so we take that transaction hash so it it makes it quite easy

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Or historical sense to replicate because the code which which I you know upload on the contract which is quite expensive to upload because it's quite a bit of code and we're storing that as a long string on the contract

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The code is there the transaction hash is really easy to get from ether scan as well, right?

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Even without our server which which renders it for us

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As long as the ethereum blockchain is available as long as anyone still has the code left right the single node

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Even if that node isn't running theoretically someone could access it offline and they would be able to recreate it

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So we're while there is an off-chain server to render it and then we do have the creation of png which we upload

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To make it faster because it does it does

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Consume quite a bit of gpu in order to get it to work

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It's actually quite complicated. Um, can I admit something? Yeah, I did crash my browser yesterday

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I was running a bunch of different outputs looking at them looking I was taking people's transactions

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And running through to see the differences and uh now granted i'm famous for having everything

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I've ever worked on like running simultaneously

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Me too, yeah, we I I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just

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Yeah, we I took down chrome a couple times

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I just pulled out a completely different computer for this zoom. I just rotate through

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I just have tons of tabs open tons of the text editor dev stuff going on databases

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Ethereum full, you know local node actually, you know bitcoin

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Full node running on another computer. So I just I just swapped

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Labsops for different things. So this is this is a non-blockchain computer. We're talking on

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Really? So i'm happy to do screen shares or nice

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I think I have two warm walls on here. Well in grotto tradition

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Do you want to share your screen and type the letter w into the browser?

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Um, let's talk about this market that you're developing first of all, um

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Congratulations. The first first drop was was phenomenal. This one was great. So I have secondary. Are you are you having?

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one

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Look full disclosure here joey and I talked a lot in the lead up to all of these drops

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about some of the drop mechanics some of pricing structures and everything because

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I believe in

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I'm

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Added that we want healthy drops for everybody

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Absolutely. I thank you for for your input on it your console. I definitely I I believe you are

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You know the the best at market dynamics utility drop structure. So that's how that's how I learned a lot of things just by participating

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In the threes project. That's that's like college for me

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And I get a scholarship because we get you know

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Get so many amazing deals on primary and air drops all sorts of stuff. Yeah, it's fun

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I mean, it's it's a part of what I enjoy doing right, but I but I'm you know, I get angry when I see artists

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fucking up their own markets and

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messing with their collectors and

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And and so, you know when when you reach out to me and when we have these conversations

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I'm adamant about saying, you know

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If it's a good project and if it's if it's something that actually has some merit some worth and you can deliver something

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engaging and exciting for your collectors then then you can leave some

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meat on the boat, right you can you can

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There's especially in

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an art market that is

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centered around a transparent

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idea of what's happening to the art where it's going and how it's changing hands nature of blockchain itself, right

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If that's where we're doing these things and we're minting it out there for that then you've got to acknowledge that

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part of your responsibility as an artist taking money for

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Conceptual pieces, which is really what an NFT is

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Lies in the fact that people are doing it

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In a speculative nature. Oh, there's a lot of speculation going on in in all of the all

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NFTs, I think I mean if that's not why we do it. I mean, we definitely I think you know

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More than any project we we do it for the art at the same time

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We don't want to gouge people. I think that's where the problem happens

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Like you're saying you leave some meat on the bone a lot of the artists

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Feel like they need to make

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Every and this this is not something that's going to be a problem

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Every and this this is not something that's limited to blockchain art

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A lot of artists are like well, I need to raise the prices every time right but

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eventually

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Well, they've been taught that

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That's that's a part of the old system as well, right? Right

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Here because because an artist is is able for the most part to

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To dictate so many of the terms

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Right. Yep falling into the old patterns. I don't think

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Matter as much. I mean, I think it's it's it's you know

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Obviously when you're an artist you're looking for a platform

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You're looking for some sort of deployment some sort of help on getting it out there

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Then you need to take into consideration

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The guidance you're getting but but at the same time

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I think that it's not as cut and dry as well last time it sold for this

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So this time I must sell for more next time it was sold for more

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I don't think that's the case anymore

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Well, it can be the case but ultimately it's the collectors who decide right

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Well, that's what you'll see. I mean it's and again what i'm saying. It's not the case

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I'm saying if you want to have a successful, you know long

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Time in the space right if you want any sort of

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Legacy if you want any sort of duration to this

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You know, i'm i'm really vocal about it

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But absolutely. I mean what you say about you know building collector value and and trying to create a great experience for everyone

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I mean, that's that's the goal and I feel like we we've provided

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Really really fair fair pricing for what people what people are getting and and also, you know, it's there's

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It's not something where everybody's going to be able to get everything right?

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There's definitely more people who want them than not but you know

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If people do the research and they see that i've been at threesomes collector for a couple years

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And I think I joined week two, right which to me seemed very late

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But you know, we talked about this another podcast. It wasn't that late

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But to me, I was like, wow, I've missed all the nfts and i've been trying to catch up ever since

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It's

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I'd say trust trust is important

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You know trust that that we are looking at for the collectors and the and the artists

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And the and the space as a whole. I mean, that's been a big goal of the project is to

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Try and have something that's to raise the profile of the space. We're very lucky that lachma

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Is is our partner their fantastic partner and um, they've

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It's been really exciting to work with them. So we want to you know, kind of kind of bring the nft space to a to a larger

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audience right in a real way a different audience too, right, which is what I think is still

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important and and

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You know, I think there's this idea

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of chasing headlines

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When it comes to pricing, right and I think whether it's institutions or it's it's a traditional arts who's brought in or

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You know even a traditional collector who comes in they come in with these dollar signs and this idea of big splashes

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And all of this money that's floating around

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You know here we are we can't even make it through two or three years of a market like that without a couple major collapses

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Absolutely

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We're certainly not the most stable of markets to say the least

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Talking in the broad market, you know, I think project by project you can actually set out to them

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Find stability and find consistency and you do have to find consistency

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And you do that by like we just talked about right where it's it's not

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How big a number can you get how quickly right? Right?

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Because I think that sets up sets you up for a fall and I really like the calculator labs has has managed to

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Convey that in a way

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You know, is that has that been a struggle with you with with lacma to to say like look

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We're not going to have a 69 million dollar

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crazy, you know explosive front page drop thing here, but we're building something that

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Is viable. Thank you. No, I mean it's not been a problem with the lacma at all

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I mean, they're they're a great partner to have on this. It's like they're they're really happy to

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be

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part of this in a way that they're

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Cutting-edge technology institution, right? They've had this art and technology lab for many years and

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large portion of the proceeds are going to

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They're that grant program

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for

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Artists who push the boundaries of technology. So that's really what it's about with them and it's not

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about

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record-breaking

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financials

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I mean, you know, I mean for definitely, you know, there's we you know

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We have gotten some feedback not from them from other people that oh, you know, you know

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You should really raise the prices. Oh, you should release more quantities, but

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That's not how we're doing it. So

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I mean, and certainly, you know that I agree with the approach

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And I it's the sort of thing where I see a future here

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In ways that you don't necessarily see but many futures in this space

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Most people's ideas are not necessarily about the future

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But the idea in ways that you don't necessarily see but many futures in this space most people's futures are

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weeks and months out

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You know in the way they they conceive of this space and you know very well that i'm I think in term of years and decades

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Exactly building things out and yeah, and it's nice to see you guys really celebrate that it's you know, I think

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um

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It's sort of a standout. It's you know, it's not

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Talked about enough

238
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But it's also early, you know, right?

239
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We're two drops in I mean I definitely you know, it's like I can't see the future for for this company and this specific project

240
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But I like to look at things and you know, five 10-year plans. Absolutely. I mean we have you know already

241
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All of the the first year is is pretty much locked down

242
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So we usually have a year plan a two-year plan five-year plan 10-year plan for any company that i'm going to work with

243
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A lot of companies don't do that. But some of the some of the better brands definitely do

244
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So as far as as spectoid labs and the lacma

245
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Can you walk I mean I I know most of them but i'm not sure that all of them have been announced

246
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But can you give me as many as that are announced that are coming up?

247
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um

248
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Yes, so

249
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Let me make sure that i'm not

250
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Well, no, and don't give me a I don't know if you need a schedule or anything, but just anybody that that it's a known entity

251
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Yeah, so

252
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So we already so we already released the first five artists

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um who were um

254
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Sarah zucker Sarah zucker ix shells, um jen stark

255
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Emily

256
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I believe it's pronounced and and monica risoli and we did

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do um

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And then we did monica's first generative

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Uh long-form drop so we we um

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Other artists, so these are great artists. These were part of the genesis, uh collection with these other artists. We have also announced

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um

262
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Our another generative drop with uh, william moppin

263
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Um, and he's already he's already working on that. It looks amazing. We're very excited about that

264
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Um, and we've already also announced

265
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Uh deaf beef and I you know, he's already working on that i've been you know, he's already submitted me some code

266
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It looks amazing

267
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Very excited. It's very creative. He's

268
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He's a real he's a real blockchain artist and he writes contracts and

269
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And it's it's pretty cool. It's different than than anything else out there right now

270
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So i'm very excited about that and then uh tyler hobbs and and there's a number of others that we we already have lined up that

271
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Haven't been announced yet. They're fantastic. I mean right there even if we're looking at those next three in some sort of uh,

272
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You know distribution there that's

273
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What's it feel like to work with with names that are their household names at this point as far as the small house of

274
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Crypto art nft world, you know, those are all obviously names that we all know. Um

275
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Well, I mean it's you know, they they are they are big names. They're also great people

276
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You know, I really I really enjoy working those artists. I mean when I started in the space

277
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My my primary role is as a developer and I as a developer. I i'm used to getting

278
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A lot of inbound requests to do

279
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Projects, but for me, I only so far i've only done projects which are artists artists driven

280
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Projects, so this is really the first project where i've been lady cacti. She she is an artist

281
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And you know, she and I are the co-founders of of the company

282
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But this is the first one where it hasn't been like so long

283
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The first one where it hasn't been like strictly

284
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an artist led

285
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Company that i've you know, it actually allows

286
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Previous days been working directly with artists where it's pretty much the artist is the boss and we're we're the service provider in this case

287
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It's a it's a similar situation, but we have

288
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Different partners as well

289
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It's it's a slightly different structure than just kind of top-down artists and i'm trying to create

290
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Purely their vision and that's the whole goal of the project

291
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But you know, i'm very excited to work with these particular artists

292
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I mean, i've always definitely want to work with the best artists that we can't we have another

293
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Number of artists that we've been talking to as well who have not released any blockchain work yet that we're very excited to bring in

294
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That's you know, I think um

295
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You know, we're we've barely scratched the surface

296
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um

297
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As far as as crossovers if we aren't calling that right or explorers or they're coming over established

298
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uh

299
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traditionally

300
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Uh now willing to to make this run

301
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,200
When you have those conversations

302
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,200
How often do you run do you run into somebody that doesn't doesn't understand that there's going to be a difference?

303
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,360
A difference between how they work in this. Yeah, just in other words

304
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,360
Because I I see a lot of the drops a lot of of the crossover drops

305
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,280
Yeah, and this is the way I make art go put it on the blockchain

306
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,040
Go sell it not even put it on the blockchain. Just go sell it

307
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,400
And then sell it not be a blockchain

308
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,080
Right, we're not doing anything like that. So

309
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,880
So so what i'm saying is

310
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Are you just lucky that that you're you're in the position where these artists are wanting to explore and create that you've just gotten into that

311
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Or is there have there been conversations that you've led them down that path? Are they?

312
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,320
Are they coming to you with with preconceived notions that they want to?

313
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,800
In a certain way. It's a great question. I mean

314
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:03,960
We definitely have a vision of of where we want things to go in in terms of the types of release that we're willing to do

315
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:09,000
And we're not in a big rush. So with the lacquer project we were in talks with them for over a year

316
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,520
I think you remember I was having phone calls with them over a year ago. Oh, yeah

317
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,520
Okay. I mean we have another release plan with actually labs

318
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,680
That we've been planning for about that long that I haven't really talked about at all yet that

319
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,240
You know, well, but I have I have people working on it

320
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,880
Already sure and that's going to be pretty ambitious release. I mean I would you know, it's like you and I are always talking about

321
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,920
trying to do trying to push the boundaries of

322
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Of what we can do right trying to make things a little more ambitious for us for captured labs and ideally for the blockchain

323
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,720
Space in general. I mean, I definitely have artists who come to me who are like, oh I want to get on

324
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Make an nft. Can you help me out? And you know, I try to advise them as best as possible

325
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But the reality is if if they don't really get the web 3 space and the nft space. I'm I'm not willing to

326
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,440
participate

327
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,800
Right. I mean, that's just what it comes down to. It's it's just too hard to go into it without

328
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:16,040
Yeah, we really educate them from the ground up and change all sorts of notions right off the bat. I'd imagine that's hard. I mean

329
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,040
Are you

330
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,040
I'm just trying to get a sense

331
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,000
I've started started chatting on the side with a with a

332
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,960
very traditionally successful

333
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:34,680
Very successful for the far. How are you want to phrase it? Okay. Yeah, somebody of certain esteem

334
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:41,800
Who is now dipping some toes has been messing around playing around a little bit, right?

335
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,800
I think that there's some some

336
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,200
Fun some excitement around it like this is neat that I can do this

337
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:54,120
I can do this any time of day or night that I want and and sort of put things out in the world

338
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,080
All of those times in reality

339
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,280
Now, you know I start

340
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,280
Going hey there buddy. We should have we thought through what we're doing

341
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Like can we have some conversation?

342
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,400
So we started some conversations very early in this but you know

343
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,800
I going back in in time to when I first even came into this and was thinking of

344
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:23,960
Bringing some artist friends along to do these sorts of things. Yeah, right. It became apparent to me that some people are gonna

345
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:31,000
Treat it with the sort of respect that I sort of demand that the interaction with the blockchain and with this whole not

346
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,200
You know notion

347
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,240
Are and others just want to use it as a cash register?

348
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,400
Right. It's just it's just another method of garnering payments for their wares

349
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:51,880
I see that yeah, I don't think that's I mean that's it's a very risky angle to take if you ever want to have the second drop

350
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,880
I think

351
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,720
We're at a point where there isn't gonna be a second hand

352
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:03,000
Yeah, and and so I would imagine, you know knowing you as well as I do

353
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,120
I would imagine that any artist who came to you was just like just show me the money

354
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:11,960
Just let's just I'll give you the work and you make the money happen that they're not going to get very far with Cacti players

355
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,960
No, no, I mean I

356
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,720
I've had very few interactions exactly like that

357
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,080
But I certainly I certainly have them and yeah, we haven't released any of those

358
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,280
I mean, I think it's a very good thing that we've had a lot of people come to us and say

359
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,280
We haven't released any of those

360
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,520
and so

361
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,920
If you're if you're on this little nice run

362
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,160
Where the most of your interactions are people who want to start exploring and of course

363
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:43,720
You're more than capable of leaving them on some real exploration, right when you start going. Okay. Well

364
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,640
Have you thought about this walk me through what you're thinking there? This is how that would really work

365
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,720
This is what might happen with that

366
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:58,520
Do you get the feeling that that you become sort of a collaborator of sorts? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean

367
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,800
I think that's what what differentiates us

368
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,160
from other

369
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,880
service providers so to say is that we

370
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,120
really see each release we do as as a unique project and

371
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,840
we try to

372
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,880
Be yeah be part of the artwork and how we how we set up the code how we set up the release

373
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,960
How we do do the whole thing. I think a lot of the the other companies are

374
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:28,580
following the

375
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,040
I want to I don't want to say necessarily web 2 mile

376
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,600
But there's a startup model which is like get to scale as as quickly as you can

377
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,820
Build something out that's as scalable as possible

378
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,320
And I mean if you read a lot of these business books, you know

379
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,080
The goals of all these companies is that they can be operated, you know by like the least

380
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:53,480
Common denominator person right? You don't want to have experts in the field and your right company that you've grown

381
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,560
You want it to be incredibly easy to operate. So it's just a rinse and repeat

382
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:04,600
Process and you know, I've definitely have experience in that area. I feel like we're lucky that we're able to

383
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:12,280
Really take each each release very seriously and really put everything that we have and into it

384
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760
You know without having a lot of outside

385
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,200
Influence

386
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,000
So as that starts to happen, right?

387
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,920
If you are looking at sort of scale you're looking at bringing in a larger group of artists, right? Yeah

388
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:33,240
I would imagine that you need to have more versions of yourself that are that that

389
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,000
I mean

390
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,720
At some point it becomes

391
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,300
It becomes impossible for you to have that same sort of collaborative

392
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:47,500
interaction, right

393
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,500
right

394
00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:52,540
Absolutely, I do know how to scale a dev team

395
00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:56,060
we're just taking things as slowly as possible because

396
00:28:56,780 --> 00:28:59,500
I know what it's like, you know, i've been down that road before and

397
00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:06,300
You need to create a successful software project. I believe that you need far fewer

398
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:09,100
people involved and

399
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:14,140
The more people that you add the more communication overhead that you add

400
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:18,860
And the long essentially the many cases the longer things take

401
00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:24,060
Right, you're you're less nimble. You're less. Also, it's very hard to hire your developers

402
00:29:24,780 --> 00:29:27,340
I I do know how to do it. But you know right now we've been

403
00:29:27,740 --> 00:29:32,940
Really focusing on getting them getting the releases at as quickly as possible which involves me working crazy hours

404
00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:35,100
But you know, that's that's how it is right now

405
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:40,220
Well, so so look when I when I have this bit of conversation you and I have chats like this all the time

406
00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:43,740
And then I get energized and I think there's hope and I think that wow

407
00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:47,020
We do have people coming and wanting to to take advantage of

408
00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:53,900
The possibilities here not simply to plug it in and take some sort of payout for all of their years of suffering

409
00:29:54,940 --> 00:29:59,900
You know, there's an awful lot in the nft world, but this is finally my time

410
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:05,260
Uh, or you know, this makes it makes all that mediocrity go away from my past. I'm able to catch it

411
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:05,980
Okay

412
00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:09,180
So if you know when I talk to you and we start

413
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:14,620
Whether it's sketched out things that I want to do or hearing what you do with others and playing this whole thing

414
00:30:14,620 --> 00:30:19,420
I get excited about I start thinking once again that we have some hope. Okay, right

415
00:30:20,540 --> 00:30:25,500
I mean you both you and I both know and I think most of the you know, people that listen to something like this

416
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:28,060
Probably have a lot of hope

417
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,620
This is something like this probably know that the

418
00:30:32,140 --> 00:30:38,780
Small amount of people out there that are actually making any of these purchases that are making they're moving any of this money around very small amount

419
00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:41,260
It's very small. Yeah

420
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:43,180
um

421
00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:45,180
When you start

422
00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:50,060
planning on bringing, you know, opening up that broader net that

423
00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:53,980
Your democrats love so much, right?

424
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:59,900
Right back and forth joe. They can't get a read on you one one minute. You're you're talking drudge and the next minute

425
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,900
You're you're casting broadness. I don't know but

426
00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:07,180
Regardless, what's that? Is there a difference though? Really? I don't know

427
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:14,940
You know the very first wombat piece that I bought after we know it was like the first piece that she minted

428
00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:18,300
Like partisan by

429
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:20,380
Furication. I love it. Yeah

430
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:25,420
You know that right elephant and the donkey. Oh, it's fantastic meeting each other and shitting each other out

431
00:31:25,580 --> 00:31:30,300
Probably my favorite work that she's done. Yeah. No, I love it. So believe me i'm right there with

432
00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:32,940
There is no difference. I'm just

433
00:31:32,940 --> 00:31:38,140
Well, I mean there is there is a difference but it's it's not necessarily the difference that people want it to be

434
00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:44,700
Yeah, believe me, um, you know that I grew up

435
00:31:46,140 --> 00:31:48,140
Very uh

436
00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:50,380
ultra progressive side of things

437
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:54,460
That that leaves me with with no no

438
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:56,940
appetite for casual

439
00:31:56,940 --> 00:32:01,660
Approaches to any of these things right? It's like hardcore one way or the other, but most people are

440
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:05,900
I don't really talk about this stuff very often. It's weird that you've got me doing it

441
00:32:05,980 --> 00:32:09,900
but but you know, it's a pretty casual approach to all of this stuff and i'm for

442
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:12,780
Really extreme one way or the other

443
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:17,580
Well, I have a lot of extreme viewpoints. They don't line up with anyone else unfortunately

444
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:22,060
My particular extreme viewpoints combination is a well

445
00:32:24,140 --> 00:32:29,500
Circling back when I was what I was trying to get at before I just traveled into that was this idea that if we're bringing in

446
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:35,820
More artists that are really going to do something and they might have a collector base. I really want to do this

447
00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:38,700
Yeah, how on earth are we going to?

448
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:46,220
To build out not just a project that appeals but a process that gets them

449
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:52,860
Into into those collectors hands that make it something a little more palatable than what we've got so far

450
00:32:52,940 --> 00:32:57,100
I think that's the the big problem is you haven't had many gateways to walk through

451
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:03,180
Right to get you to these platforms that deliver and they really didn't do a good job of making

452
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:07,420
An expansive group of people feel comfortable coming into

453
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:11,580
The market. Well, I think it's very hard to build a platform now

454
00:33:11,660 --> 00:33:15,020
That's going to work because things are changing so quickly and to me

455
00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:21,180
That's what's really different about the quote unquote web three space compared to other industries

456
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:23,260
I mean when I first started with

457
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,100
startups

458
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:31,660
Web and things it was really you could just enter any industry and any industry was so far behind

459
00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:33,900
that you put some

460
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:39,340
New technology into it and that's like, oh my gosh, we've never seen this before and just major major

461
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,580
disruptive

462
00:33:41,580 --> 00:33:43,580
benefits for those

463
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,820
industries, um, those things could take

464
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:51,260
Months or years. I mean we're at a point with the nft space when we joined

465
00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:53,660
there would be maybe a

466
00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:57,580
Couple major drops a month maybe I mean if nifty was doing

467
00:33:58,060 --> 00:34:02,700
At 1.1 drop a day, right and that was kind of like the big thing and everybody okay

468
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:05,900
Get ready for the nifty drop. What's it going to be or you get a

469
00:34:06,540 --> 00:34:13,420
Win the the drawing or you get a mint of the open edition or whatever it is, but but now

470
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:17,420
There's way too it's so fast, right? I mean

471
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:22,780
How many there must be hundreds of drops a day at this point, right? Well, and yet

472
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:25,340
How many drops do you hear about?

473
00:34:26,380 --> 00:34:28,380
Is the thing probably?

474
00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:30,620
I think there's one major news cycle every three days

475
00:34:30,620 --> 00:34:36,700
I mean, it's like there's there's a number of things going on today, right and and we still try you're going to hear about

476
00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:40,460
What i'm saying is you're hearing about a handful of because there's

477
00:34:41,180 --> 00:34:47,020
It's it's very splintered. It's very sort of fractualized and getting some ground spread out and

478
00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:52,220
You also have they're all chasing the same pool. Anyway, so

479
00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:59,900
Right, you know that's that's where I see this issue is that there there are many hundreds of drops going on at any given time

480
00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:01,900
Yeah

481
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:03,900
Most of them, right?

482
00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:06,940
What's it matter

483
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:11,580
What's it matter? I mean there there are a number of of serious collectors and I and I thank all the ones that

484
00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:16,060
That participated in our project. We you know, we try to write by the collectors

485
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:19,820
I mean, I love all the collectors and in threesomes project as well. I mean I

486
00:35:20,780 --> 00:35:23,580
Take their experience very seriously. Um

487
00:35:24,380 --> 00:35:27,580
Things you're right. There are a ton of drops that things change though. There's certain

488
00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:29,900
standards which we have to adhere to and

489
00:35:31,180 --> 00:35:37,180
Technological norms which are evolving very quickly and a lot of times these things are not announced

490
00:35:37,180 --> 00:35:39,900
So like yesterday right in the middle of our job

491
00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:46,460
Open sea completely upgraded their platform and thankfully we didn't have any any issues with it

492
00:35:46,460 --> 00:35:52,860
But we're feeling that that open sea has somebody on the inside of tecton labs who's telling them exactly when you're

493
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:55,900
You're dropping so that they can make these changes

494
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,940
At the exact moment because they did the same thing for the first drop, right?

495
00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:03,180
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean there was a number of changes the first drop and

496
00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:05,980
It had to be

497
00:36:06,460 --> 00:36:09,420
We had to really read very carefully

498
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:16,140
Very, you know deeply into the whole marketplace blocker just to make sure that we had the logic because like like I said with with with

499
00:36:16,140 --> 00:36:18,620
LACMA, you know, we're talking about

500
00:36:19,580 --> 00:36:24,060
Not just the five-year tenure plan, but you know, really like an art preservation, right?

501
00:36:24,060 --> 00:36:28,060
We want to make sure that these things live on, you know, it's a cyclopedic

502
00:36:28,620 --> 00:36:33,660
Museum, you know, we're talking, you know hundreds of years from now are we going to be able to view these artworks and

503
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:40,300
You know, how is that all going to work? We're definitely thinking and talking along those along those lines. It's not the

504
00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:46,220
Here today, you know a lot of nfts. It seems like it's it's on a nice like

505
00:36:46,940 --> 00:36:52,540
Mint it but you know flip it buy it again flip it buy it again flip it dump it get out

506
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:55,820
On the next project. I mean, it seems like that's how most of the space

507
00:36:56,460 --> 00:36:59,740
Operates and it's just like oh everything's in the rear view mirror

508
00:36:59,740 --> 00:37:03,980
But you know, we definitely look at things from our preservation standpoint for sure

509
00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:06,780
well, and so

510
00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:11,340
As you know, I I find it interesting to imagine this process where we have

511
00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:17,340
Interested artists coming coming in. Yep and collaborating with dev

512
00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:22,380
Figure how you make this this this work at the same time

513
00:37:22,380 --> 00:37:27,900
I think that that that third element so you've got two elements in it, but the third element has to be some sort of

514
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:31,820
market guidance right some sort of

515
00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:35,580
Platform or or

516
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:38,300
Right, you know institution

517
00:37:38,620 --> 00:37:45,020
Okay, so to me I think that that we're what we see in cacti labs aligning itself with an institution saying okay

518
00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:51,100
We'll handle these drops here, right? Yeah, I think that becomes the move right isn't that

519
00:37:52,140 --> 00:37:54,140
rather than then

520
00:37:54,620 --> 00:37:56,940
I think it's it's too much to imagine

521
00:37:57,420 --> 00:38:03,500
The broad net the saying we're one platform and any type of drop can come into us or any type of

522
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:08,140
Or any type of thing gets showcased here. We're seeing that play itself horribly

523
00:38:08,860 --> 00:38:12,700
Right horribly because a lot a lot of these platforms don't have

524
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:16,620
All the features that are really essential and and they're missing a lot of the details

525
00:38:17,180 --> 00:38:21,100
Right under the surface that are quite likely the whole thing. We were saying was open sea

526
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:25,340
It's like you really need to understand how that marketplace contract works

527
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,900
You know what the edge cases are

528
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:32,060
Who else is using that same marketplace contract what that?

529
00:38:32,860 --> 00:38:39,660
You know relationship looks like where things are headed and you have to be nimble, but I also really want to

530
00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:44,700
Keep keep security at the forefront. There's a lot of shortcuts that people can take to kind of

531
00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:49,820
Maybe that seems like they will protect them for the future, but are actually open opening up

532
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:52,700
potential problems, too

533
00:38:53,180 --> 00:38:57,180
You have to be you know, you have to you know, kind of I believe in the triple check

534
00:38:57,580 --> 00:39:02,620
Don't rush. Don't don't fomo right? I'm not one to change right and it's and I and I take that

535
00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:05,740
You know with my dev work the same as I do with my my collecting

536
00:39:05,740 --> 00:39:11,020
Am I am I uh, right in remembering that in a sense you

537
00:39:11,740 --> 00:39:17,900
You really started taking the steps sort into to smart contract development because you started reading them

538
00:39:19,740 --> 00:39:24,060
As you were flipping stuff as you were coming in sneaker sneakers ablaze

539
00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:27,820
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I I came in and

540
00:39:28,540 --> 00:39:31,340
You know, it's I started for the experience, right?

541
00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:37,100
Um, yeah, you know I kind of you know lady cat. I kind of had this vision, you know lady cat

542
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:41,500
I got into nfts before me which which is which is pretty interesting that we're you know couple

543
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:48,940
Such as my wife is one who led me into into nfts. Usually it's the opposite right? Um, so that was pretty cool

544
00:39:49,660 --> 00:39:54,460
Um, but yeah, I definitely did did some some flipping early on and and basically

545
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:56,860
It was at a point where you could get into the

546
00:39:56,860 --> 00:40:01,260
And you could learn about stuff and you could go on clubhouse and learn about stuff

547
00:40:01,980 --> 00:40:07,580
Even but pre discord, right? I mean I was on discord. Yep a couple years before nfts

548
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:14,780
And I kind of saw it headed there and I was like really excited for nfts to move to discord because I thought that would be a great move

549
00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:18,460
Um, but you know that we didn't have the same security concerns

550
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:21,580
Back then that we do now. It was it was more of a

551
00:40:21,580 --> 00:40:27,500
Not your keys, not your crypto type thing. It was the more like the exchanges that were the risk and I still think they are

552
00:40:27,740 --> 00:40:31,180
The biggest risk in the space is is the exchanges

553
00:40:31,660 --> 00:40:37,420
But the reason I got into slitty, I mean I have a background as a developer. I've been writing code professionally for many years

554
00:40:38,060 --> 00:40:42,540
Um, and then you know casually for many more and I started writing code when I was five years old, right?

555
00:40:42,860 --> 00:40:47,100
Writing basic and things but um, I was a little bit more of a

556
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:52,540
I started reading solidity contracts partially out of curiosity, right? I mean I I kind of

557
00:40:52,860 --> 00:40:55,340
Always been a tinker. I always like to know what's going on in the hood

558
00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:59,740
I was always taking apart gadgets and toys but also as as a security measure

559
00:41:00,220 --> 00:41:07,100
Because if i'm going to connect with a wallet and it doesn't matter if it's a soft wallet, you know hard

560
00:41:07,420 --> 00:41:10,220
Hardware wallet hot wallets like I want to know

561
00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:12,860
What i'm connecting with

562
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:18,700
Right and this whole warm wallet thing is pretty fun because you know, I have a warm wallet set up and it really is

563
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:21,900
No worries. It was so great for the uh, the yuga game

564
00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:27,340
The dookie dash because I played with the warm wallet on a computer that had no other and I just didn't

565
00:41:27,580 --> 00:41:31,180
Didn't really have to think much about the transactions. It's like not much could go wrong

566
00:41:31,420 --> 00:41:33,980
But generally any transaction I do with any wallet

567
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:37,260
I'm gonna read the whole contract before I do it

568
00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:43,020
I can read a contract very fast at this point, but that's what I started doing. I started reading the contracts

569
00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:45,820
and

570
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:52,220
It's like reading books for me and I really started doing case studies on drops that went really well

571
00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:54,780
Drops that went horribly wrong

572
00:41:55,340 --> 00:42:00,620
Right. What went wrong, you know and like drops that really high gas drops that really low gas

573
00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:03,020
I want to know what went wrong. I want to know what went wrong

574
00:42:03,020 --> 00:42:08,140
You know and like drops that really high gas drops that really low gas. I wanted to know how they did it

575
00:42:08,540 --> 00:42:13,340
Right, so I start reading all the libraries so now I can read one really quickly a lot of them reference different libraries that I know

576
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:17,340
Very well, i've read the ethereum spec, you know, I really go quite deep on it

577
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:21,980
um, but it's been it's been really it's been really fun and interesting I really

578
00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:24,460
enjoy

579
00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:26,460
Solidity and and ethereum

580
00:42:27,020 --> 00:42:30,060
And and then so that's how I got started right? So people started asking me

581
00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:34,380
Oh, can you do my nft drop for me and I generally said no, I you know

582
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:37,100
It's like that's how I kind of get into developing in general

583
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:42,860
It's it was just I just did it for fun. I did for fun of my own purposes, right? It's like I started writing code

584
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:47,100
As a convenience because I didn't want to manually type in a bunch of stuff

585
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:50,940
I was like, well, let me start scripting these things. I don't have to do all this data entry

586
00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:55,900
Oh, let me start reading solidity so that I can know what i'm doing. I mean I saw this contract that somebody

587
00:42:55,900 --> 00:43:02,460
Somebody connected to someone's complaining on twitter space the other day that they connected to this quote-unquote wallet drainer contract, right?

588
00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:05,980
someone tweeted tweeted a link they're promoting some

589
00:43:06,780 --> 00:43:13,260
Some new project that was on twitter space and they're promoting a project that they found on open sea and like oh isn't this project great?

590
00:43:13,260 --> 00:43:16,940
We should all buy it and they're all like, oh look at the price go up

591
00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:21,660
You should all get it. I'm not going to say who it was or what the project was or what the other product

592
00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:28,460
But you know, they they're promoting a pretty large project and they wanted to promote this small project for those holders

593
00:43:29,020 --> 00:43:33,500
And they and someone got up on the stage and they said that oh, I just

594
00:43:34,140 --> 00:43:38,220
You know, it's like they'd said in the true space that this product had been sold out for days, right?

595
00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:42,300
And it was very low price and open sea is like, oh we should buy it. But the other guy said oh

596
00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:50,140
It's the last 99 or free or something. And apparently the guy on the twitter space had retweeted some tweet

597
00:43:50,140 --> 00:43:56,300
From the twitter account that he thought was connected to this product. Maybe it was I don't know. It's just some random product he found and

598
00:43:56,780 --> 00:44:02,620
And the person in the true space connected to that contract is via the website. Oh, it's a wallet drainer contract

599
00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:04,620
He's just I just lost all my ethereum

600
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:10,220
And so I get on there and I because I knew what the tweet was and I looked at the at the contract

601
00:44:10,780 --> 00:44:12,220
and

602
00:44:12,220 --> 00:44:12,780
um

603
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:18,060
Contract was hilarious. It was about it was about 40 lines long and had a mint function

604
00:44:18,060 --> 00:44:20,780
and it had a mint function and it had

605
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:22,620
a

606
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:28,940
Transfer function and it had all these different functions and it was just nothing just the name of the function and no code inside

607
00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:31,180
It was just a name function and it had the payable

608
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:33,980
um the payable

609
00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:36,300
Decorator on the function, which means it can accept

610
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:43,500
Ethereum and then there's nothing right? So so in the website what they did in the code was they just

611
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:47,660
Um said, you know mint or free claim and then it just

612
00:44:48,220 --> 00:44:54,780
You know the the website took the connection the wallet and looked at the amount of ethereum in the wallet and it just sent that along

613
00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:56,220
And to me

614
00:44:56,220 --> 00:45:03,500
I was surprised that the guy didn't even read the transaction because the transaction would have said point one seven which was in his wallet

615
00:45:03,820 --> 00:45:07,180
going for this free claim, maybe that would have been a red flag

616
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:09,500
But maybe he thought he was

617
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:14,620
Maybe he thought he was lucky. I just the country was so the scam contract was so lazy

618
00:45:15,180 --> 00:45:17,420
They didn't even they it was verified too

619
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:21,020
I mean, it's like they didn't even try to hide what they're doing. It was right in the time

620
00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:26,300
But for me, it's like if I saw something like that if someone said, oh my gosh, there's a free claim. You got to get it

621
00:45:27,260 --> 00:45:31,020
Like I said, i'm not gonna fomo. I'm gonna i'm gonna think about it if I miss out I miss out

622
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:33,740
but i'm certainly gonna read that contract right before I

623
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:36,060
you know and

624
00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:38,540
To me, I love I love this story and

625
00:45:38,540 --> 00:45:40,540
I didn't expect it to be as long-winded

626
00:45:40,540 --> 00:45:42,540
but

627
00:45:42,540 --> 00:45:46,540
We're gonna get cut out stuff, right?

628
00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:50,540
No, we don't we don't do that. We're gonna leave we're gonna leave it in here so you can tell us all this but

629
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:58,540
But no in all seriousness it matters to me because look here you are crypto cactoid

630
00:45:59,180 --> 00:46:03,980
Taking meanings with all the names all the institutions

631
00:46:04,540 --> 00:46:07,020
You get out there. Okay, and

632
00:46:07,020 --> 00:46:10,540
This is gonna sound wacky for me to say but i'd never want you to forget

633
00:46:11,580 --> 00:46:16,140
Okay, because I love it about you and I love it about this space that you came here

634
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:19,260
Yeah, because some sneaker flippers were

635
00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:26,300
You know talking about things and you saw a way to to get in and have some fun in that nifty wave and do that thing

636
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,460
Right. Yeah, i'm the same goddamn way

637
00:46:29,020 --> 00:46:33,820
Okay, let's not forget. You know you have lady cactoid bring you in dino

638
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:37,500
Was trying to bring me in the top shot and I wouldn't listen to him. Oh, wow

639
00:46:37,980 --> 00:46:41,820
Yeah, retro finally brought me in. Yeah, okay to do the gateway

640
00:46:42,380 --> 00:46:45,740
Okay, and then I started really kicking the tires and looking around. Okay

641
00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:49,740
Um by the time he brought me in I had this idea of platform

642
00:46:50,060 --> 00:46:55,100
Even though I hadn't even seen what the process was to buy or what it was to hold or how any of these things worked, right?

643
00:46:55,980 --> 00:46:58,860
But it matters that that you and I

644
00:46:59,580 --> 00:47:02,140
Okay are now at the crossroads of

645
00:47:02,140 --> 00:47:04,140
a really important

646
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:08,540
Movement in in art. I think overall historically important

647
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:14,380
Crossroads for art. Okay, and we're here and we didn't come here because we were going to be

648
00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:18,860
bounding fathers of the new generation of

649
00:47:19,580 --> 00:47:26,700
You know historically significant art progression. It's true. We didn't right now. We just want to you know

650
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:29,260
I just want to see what happens, you know

651
00:47:29,260 --> 00:47:34,540
Make something make something cool, right make make cool shit as my favorite developers like to me

652
00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:40,460
That's why you and I click and why we're here and why this works so much more than coming in with the agenda

653
00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:42,460
Which I think we're up against so often

654
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:44,700
Right people are either coming in with the agenda

655
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,380
I'm gonna make as much fucking money as I can as quickly as I can and who cares

656
00:47:48,940 --> 00:47:54,860
Yeah, what comes next or they're coming in to be the thing that they are outside of this space

657
00:47:54,860 --> 00:47:56,860
And now I'm going to be that thing here

658
00:47:56,860 --> 00:48:01,820
To and everyone will you know bend to my will and do whatever right? No

659
00:48:02,380 --> 00:48:04,380
this and why

660
00:48:04,460 --> 00:48:09,660
I make a living at it why I live in it and why you do is because it's actually built

661
00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:11,580
for

662
00:48:11,580 --> 00:48:13,900
Somebody to come in figure it out

663
00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:16,220
hone it

664
00:48:16,220 --> 00:48:20,220
Walk through it have no preconceived notions of where it needs to go

665
00:48:20,780 --> 00:48:22,780
Learn from it figure it out

666
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:25,100
Start making it work

667
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:30,620
figure it out start making changes on it start dictating terms on it and start producing

668
00:48:31,580 --> 00:48:35,020
What I think you and I are in the midst of building here, right?

669
00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:41,340
Which is the the steps that are going to lead something that goes far beyond these first three or five years

670
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:42,700
however, you want to

671
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:46,380
To put it. Okay, which we're not being run by people who were

672
00:48:47,820 --> 00:48:49,340
Taking the right steps

673
00:48:49,340 --> 00:48:52,220
Right. I mean we definitely you know, I just like to ask

674
00:48:52,220 --> 00:48:54,460
What I think are interesting questions and and

675
00:48:55,020 --> 00:48:59,740
find out the answers however long it takes. I mean lady cacti. I mean she has real experience and

676
00:49:00,460 --> 00:49:01,340
right

677
00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:03,580
In art, you know, which which is which is a

678
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:06,140
That's why she's really a great partner

679
00:49:06,460 --> 00:49:10,940
To have but yeah, we did not have an agenda of coming in as the premier

680
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:14,220
Art platform. I really yeah, you know, I really got into the whole

681
00:49:14,780 --> 00:49:16,780
sneaker game because I wanted to

682
00:49:17,340 --> 00:49:21,260
Find out why I couldn't buy jordan-5's on clearance anymore. It was really just a simple

683
00:49:21,260 --> 00:49:28,700
Question. I just say I used to I wearing air jordan since I was a little kid. I was like my dad always used to wear stan smith

684
00:49:29,260 --> 00:49:35,180
I wore air jordan's and that's just kind of our our disagreement as a child and I still wear the air jordan's although

685
00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:39,820
For new balance now more comfortable, but you know when I when I go out, you know

686
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:42,380
right in one day

687
00:49:42,780 --> 00:49:47,420
I couldn't buy jordan-5's on clearance from east bay anymore and now east bay doesn't even exist anymore

688
00:49:47,420 --> 00:49:53,820
It's just gone right but but I wanted to find out why and it wasn't about the money for me, right?

689
00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:57,580
It's like I could have gone and bought them on stock exchange, but I wanted to find out

690
00:49:58,460 --> 00:50:03,100
Where they're going what was happening and I really went down that rabbit hole. That's what led me into discord

691
00:50:03,580 --> 00:50:06,620
And along that journey, you know when top shot started out

692
00:50:07,580 --> 00:50:11,660
Um, and you know, I got involved in that as well kind of through the rise and fall

693
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:15,820
I had this vision, you know early on that that these

694
00:50:15,820 --> 00:50:23,020
Kids these kind of sneaker heads devs and things that they were going to be the next generation of art collectors

695
00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:29,100
And it happened much more quickly than it's kind of it's kind of already happened and it's kind of over at this point

696
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:32,300
It kind of kind of happened already and you know done right?

697
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:36,060
Yeah, no doubt. I mean and some of the success stories

698
00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:43,100
The the organic success stories and nfts still have their basis in that same crew and they're sort of taste making and

699
00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:46,320
And determining now which I think is one of the struggles

700
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:54,160
If somebody comes with any sort of traditional art background to see the choices being made by people as as upholding, you know, this is

701
00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:00,640
The blue chip part of this space, you know, there's some pushback there because it doesn't fit in line with what they're doing

702
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,640
But it comes, you know

703
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,000
Even if if I can argue it at times

704
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,040
Has just been you know, sick as fuck which I love to

705
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:14,640
Yeah, but but the sickest movement actually comes from something

706
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:16,160
right

707
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:22,720
Right in ways the you know, maybe maybe it does have some appeal. Maybe I need to write some apology letters at some point

708
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,640
Well, it's interesting when people have debates about it, you know, it's like there's people have opinions about cause

709
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,880
I happen to like cause people have opinions about coons jeff coons

710
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:35,840
but uh

711
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,360
Yeah, um, you know, it's everybody has opinions right and there's there's all this

712
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,080
There's a lot of mainstream

713
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,080
I mean, there's not a lot of mainstream artists. Let's put it that way. I feel like the art the traditional art movement

714
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,040
I like to see them welcoming in new

715
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Collectors young collectors. I think we had

716
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,840
I don't want to see mainstream art go down the road

717
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,600
Classical music which I think is not that welcoming

718
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:08,960
But they they tried right they tried to have kind of young people's concerts and things focus on personalities

719
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,200
Right. I want to see the traditional art

720
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,400
World expand in terms of you know, who's who's paying attention to it?

721
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:25,120
At least I think you know, there's a lot of the nft art is is definitely a separate spirit

722
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,760
I'm not saying they should be the same thing but you know, we're trying to

723
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,840
See which gaps make sense to bridge for both sides, right?

724
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,520
And I think that there's the we've sewed and nason and earlier

725
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,240
We really do have some a chance at a bunch of different paths coming out of this

726
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,480
But I think is what's gonna happen, right?

727
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,480
um, but

728
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,840
you know, I I do feel and you you just not try to hide it, you know hide this but

729
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,120
You know, i'm going to be uh laying down some of of the notes that get played

730
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,120
You know in the future

731
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,240
Um on many of those paths even you know

732
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,960
Even in the sick as fuck guys, yeah, start using threesoops type stuff, right? Uh speaking of which yeah

733
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,080
We'll end it on this. I've got one little morsel here for for the grotto

734
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:18,560
Listeners that are joining us and stuck it out right right now. We this week we saw the departure

735
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,280
uh the

736
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,480
Publicized and and much ballyhooed departure from the space of dot pigeon

737
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,280
Okay

738
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:32,960
Does this

739
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:39,600
speed up the the the the move of my dot pigeon 001 as

740
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,400
More important more prominent than dot pigeon himself or

741
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:50,160
Is this the right move to establish dot pigeons legacy moving forward?

742
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,160
I feel that we've been at a at a at a teetering point where

743
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:01,120
You know dot pigeon was sort of in in a bit of a market decline to say the least but even the you know

744
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:08,480
Collector decline and what have you and at the same time my piece of him was sort of going on an upward upward trajectory

745
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:10,160
Yep

746
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,840
Now let's just say here we are this week. It's neck and neck

747
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:15,600
What do you think?

748
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,600
I'm saying if it's neck if I'm sorry

749
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,200
I wouldn't say it's neck and neck. I wouldn't say it's neck and neck. I mean, I think

750
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,840
I mean, I think the research project is

751
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,200
One of the most important projects out there. I mean, I've believed that for years now

752
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:36,000
I'm not a collector as well. I think so too. I know you're not like that's what i'm saying. So does dot pigeon 001

753
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,600
Leave dot pigeon in the dust or is this or is his stepping away?

754
00:54:42,380 --> 00:54:45,920
Solidify and put him in a position that he actually does have a future

755
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:51,280
Oh, you think that even though he's still alive that there's gonna be we're gonna have some type of like post-mortem

756
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:57,280
Okay, he's not making any more nfts it anymore that that's gonna make his work more sought after does it? I don't know

757
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,280
I think he thinks that

758
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,040
Oh, yeah, interesting. I think that's exactly what he thinks. Okay

759
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,840
Because he didn't say like i'm running off to capri taking the mask off and i'm gonna

760
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,760
You know just disappear. No, he's saying now i'm gonna focus on canvases again, right?

761
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,800
I'm not going to do this other thing that was a distraction

762
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:24,000
I think that the intent is he needs to shore up the other base and he's got to go that direction

763
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:31,520
So that's that's my question. Where do you see it? What's your feedback? Yeah, what's my feedback? Well

764
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,040
I think it's interesting

765
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,160
How your work is

766
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,320
Is a commentary

767
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:46,880
On the space. I mean i'm very interested in this this latest march madness drop and this is kind of going off in a different direction

768
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,160
But you know how it's a commentary on the space, right? I mean the earliest work

769
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,160
was

770
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:57,200
portraits of the nft artists of the time of the epoch

771
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:04,080
Right several buds which we which we felt was like a very important time in our lives a very long time

772
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,080
Right. It was only actually a couple of months

773
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:12,640
But uh, it was interesting that you chose that pigeon as the first one. I think that pigeon was widely acclaimed in in all the circles

774
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:19,360
Right if we go back in time you had nifty people were into it sneaker people were really into it

775
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:24,820
It was just like that pigeon. It's just a no-brainer. I think there's a lot of mystique with the balaclava

776
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,520
That was really obviously pussy riot has the whole balaclava angle as well

777
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:36,000
I knew he had you know the black balaclava the pink balaclava and it's very important in nfts. Um

778
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:38,720
It's interesting that he took it off

779
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,440
Right. I mean I never expected that to happen

780
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:45,680
Right. It's kind of like a superman clark kent kind of kind of thing

781
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:52,480
I mean, I think it's apparently kind of like a superhero in some ways. I think he's seen that way by certain people. Yeah, I mean

782
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,600
and

783
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,480
You know without putting my two cents into that

784
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,840
Um because I already painted in six times. Yeah

785
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,560
you know, um

786
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,280
For very specific reasons, right?

787
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,920
you know, and I very specifically chose him as number one and I

788
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,480
I very I mean

789
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:15,920
you know I

790
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,320
My whole series too. I was saying something very specific

791
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,440
Time will tell yeah

792
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,200
but

793
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,120
I'm of the mindset

794
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,280
That dot pigeon will be remembered as the reason's first pain

795
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,720
Absolutely, I think so too and I think it's very interesting

796
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:34,640
that

797
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:41,440
Your work is a commentary on that time and then he made this claim on twitter that his work is also a commentary on

798
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,000
these different mechanics and these

799
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,720
It's it's it's a little confusing what's happening right now

800
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:54,960
It's like a simulacrum of the simulacrum kind of kind of situation right now. It's like who's the real spider-man, right?

801
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,520
I agree. Yeah, there there is some of that and and

802
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,080
it's it's

803
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,080
You know, I don't think um

804
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,400
I think he factors more into my conversations than I do into his

805
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,320
Which is interesting. I mean, it's interesting how

806
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,680
You know, I know we talked about this

807
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,120
before I mean you are really doing a lot of the cutting edge

808
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:21,840
work and commentary and

809
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,400
And it should in my opinion should be

810
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,400
more

811
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:32,880
Recognized right? I mean it's certainly recognized in the markets at this point by the by the collectors which is fantastic

812
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,600
but the dot pigeon stuff is

813
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:41,760
It's a whole different thing. I mean, I think it's it's an important part of our history the whole dot pigeon gang

814
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,800
I mean, I'm glad that

815
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,720
That we still get to communicate with them. I and I got to meet him. That was pretty fun

816
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,160
It's really nice guy. I'm very very gentle

817
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:57,840
Person, you know, you look at me. He's like is is he a robber? Is he a mean guy? Is he a superhero?

818
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,080
Right. It seems like the work really centers around

819
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,600
Robbing these these fancy people's homes, right? That's that's kind of interesting

820
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,760
And you know people look at three z's

821
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,080
And they're like, is he a pedophile or is he drunkard or?

822
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,400
So maybe I maybe that was the big problem. Maybe that's why I chose it

823
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:24,640
I did I had a conversation with the other day who became full boy came to the studio and he was like just who were clear

824
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,600
Three z's is a pedophile right you painted you painted the eight the quintessential

825
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:35,200
late 70s early 80s neighborhood pedophile and I was like actually no, but I

826
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,600
I know exactly what you're talking about and I can see you reading that but

827
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,280
It's interesting. I really never thought that yeah, I I agree with your your take on it

828
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,960
I could I could see if people saying that but yeah, I never thought of it that way

829
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,400
I like the whole young three z's angle that here's this like

830
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:58,880
Superman is kind of like, you know, ubermanage kind of character who's done all these amazing things, right and keep learning more and more

831
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:03,440
Yeah, I really want to find out how he ended up in that parade. I'd like to see him in print. I think that's

832
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,280
That's that's the goal. I think of the project now get it. I think I think

833
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,080
I think it is right. I think it is because

834
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:15,520
And and and then to have built the story as to why he's adored by by millions

835
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:21,520
Absolutely. I could talk to you all night. We usually do when we do talk we talk for hours

836
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,280
Good daylight here even on the west coast

837
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,840
But but we'll cut it short we we we keep this

838
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,800
Palatable manageable amount, but I appreciate it. We'll have you on there for some while

839
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:42,400
Let's catch up on stuff. Um, I I think I think with the the definitive answer was dot pigeon. Oh one

840
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,280
Has more legs to dot pigeon

841
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:52,240
That's that's my take on it right now and you know, he did say that he would be back right we think but yeah, I mean

842
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,240
dot pigeon. Oh one

843
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,240
Definitely the most I spent on

844
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,960
Any nft ever i'm glad I did it's it's

845
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,880
Really? I'm really happy to have have one one of the 21 and one of the 20

846
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:04,880
I have one one of the 21 in my

847
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,360
Yeah, you did it you pulled it out. Um, great great job again

848
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,920
With the moniker rizzoli drop

849
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:14,720
I love what you guys are doing. You know that

850
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,760
Absolutely. Thank you for having me on I like I said, I've always I've always

851
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,920
I always listen to the podcast. I've always wanted to be on the podcast. I'm happy to

852
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,680
Be here of course, of course. Thank you guys. Thank you kids

853
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:27,680
See you

854
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:33,680
Right again