Jennifer Strong (00:03):
As AI moves beyond the screen and into the physical world, the next generation of intelligent products will be defined less by bigger models than by context, trust, and the ability to act. I recently caught up with renowned industrial designer, Robert Brunner. His work is in the permanent collections of places like the Museum of Modern Art and the Smithsonian. He's designed a number of products that have gone on to define the way we live with technology, including Apple's original Power Book and the headphones Beats by Dr. Dre. He believes thoughtfully designed hardware is essential to AI's future. And this week, he tells us how he believes the most valuable products will earn their place in people's everyday lives. I'm Jennifer Strong, and this is SHIFT.
SHOW THEME (00:52):
Here on the steering column is a device called auto cruise. You simply set the speed you want - Self-driving robo taxis are already on the road in two Cities. As a discrotates, a mirror reflects the light in the way that depends on how the signal was recorded. This Is the 100 Terabyte. I present to you, Electro, the motoman, ladies and gentlemen. I would say that one of my greatest skills is my ability to interact with Humans.
Jennifer Strong (01:23):
This episode was taped before a live audience at the tech conference, HumanX, in Amsterdam.
Robert Brunner (01:53):
Honestly, it's, it's insane, right? The, uh, design we developed 35 years ago - uh-huh. Is the, still the foundation for every notebook computer that's made. Technology changes, but it's still the same basic design. So
Jennifer Strong (02:08):
What made that design finish in a way that most tech products never are?
Robert Brunner (02:12):
Well, I don't know if any product is ever finished, but I think the thing that made that design so durable is that it really is a reflection of a human workspace, right? It's really was set up, we built it from scratch around the idea of mobile computing, and that's what defined it. And that's what was the breakthrough and the configuration of creating this consistent work surface. And no matter where you go, you have this consistent place to work. And at the time, all the other, uh, manufacturers of the world were just basically shrinking down desktops, you know, to be somewhat smaller than a briefcase where we just started from scratch. It was a very Apple thing to do. And we hit onto something that just, like I said, is, it, it's crazy that it's still the same design. But when you think about it, it's, you talk about finishing.
Robert Brunner (03:01):
Mm-hmm. You know, a design which has that sort of integrity around its purpose are the ones that sort of last through the waves of technology and change.
Jennifer Strong (03:11):
Well, physical AI, those products don't get to be finished, right? Yeah. Because they continue to develop and learn after they leave the factory. So how does that change what good design even means?
Robert Brunner (03:23):
It changes a lot. I mean, on one hand, we're doing the things we've always done, but now we have this idea that this, as you said, the design continues to evolve. Once someone owns it, it, it, you're, it's not done, right? So you deliver it to people and it provides functionality. But now you have products that have the ability to understand and operate with agency - uh-huh. And continue to evolve and grow with their audience. So all of a sudden the, the idea and the responsibility of the designer changes and it gets much more complicated on how we're building these things.
Jennifer Strong (03:59):
As you said, mobile changed everything, connectivity changed everything, then cloud. So what's the shift now? In practical terms, what does it mean?
Robert Brunner (04:08):
Well, it's, it's different, you know, and it's, for me, I, you know, I've been doing this for a long time and I've actually been designing products through every major shift in personal technology. I mean, started out doing the first personal computers where you were taking computing and putting it in people's hands and giving them more control. Then it was the internet, which allowed so much more information at your fingertips and allowed you to do more. Then it was mobile, which gave you context and location. Then, then we went to cloud, which allowed continuity across so many things. And now we get to artificial intelligence, which, you know, I don't, for me, it's actually a new design material. It's different than all the other transitions. It's somehow much more consequential, and it's really changing the role of a designer in how we develop products.
Jennifer Strong (05:00):
And just to be clear, how would you differentiate between something that's smart and something that's physical AI, or do you?
Robert Brunner (05:07):
Well, the idea of smart products is when looking back now, they're actually quite dumb. Right. Right? And, and I, you know, I have a personal story that my wife and I built a house about 10 years ago, amazing home. And, and, you know, given who I am and what I was doing at the time, I wanted to make it as smart a home as possible, spend enormous amount of time and money. Everything in the house that, that can be hooked up to a central processing unit is. And so I do this thing. And so what do I end up with? You know, well, I can set schedules, turn things on and off. Right. I can operate it remotely, right? Mm-hmm. But it doesn't know who I am. It doesn't know when I'm there or anyone from my family's there. It doesn't know what we're doing.
Robert Brunner (05:56):
Right. It doesn't know what the weather is. It doesn't know anything, right? So what you realize is that the products that, of that era from the inter - uh, internet of things, right, really was just simply about connectivity. They aren't smart at all. So now we're looking at, okay, if I took that same example, my, my thermostat actually understood when we're there, when we're not, what's going on, if our lighting knew whether we were having a party or not, right? It's all these things that you could start building this, this idea of context and then begin to look at, you know, and you give it agency, you end up with this thing called judgment. Right. Which is a fundamentally new idea for products. Yeah. And I'm not just talking about robotics, right, with these humanoid robots and so on. I'm talking about very simple everyday things that all of a sudden can understand the situation that they're in and make judgments on their own.
Robert Brunner (06:52):
And that changes everything.
Jennifer Strong (06:53):
It changes everything, but it might be helpful for folks in the room. Like, so what's something it changes just so we can make this tangible?
Robert Brunner (07:01):
From a design point of view? Mm-hmm. Well, you know, when you, when we start looking at, as I said, we do the things we've always done in developing a product, but the, the level that we do them is changing, right? And so what we find ourselves, you know, when we always have worked in collaborative teams, but the, those teams are expanding - uh-huh. Into ethics and psychology, right? Where now, you know, what we are doing, and we always have walked through scenarios, but now there, it's almost like theater, right, in which we're building out scenarios and, and looking at anticipating behavior and prototyping and mimicking that behavior to define what the best possible way that we could describe for the intelligence to be operating in. So it's sort of taken this, this new level where we're looking at how we design a product in a totally different context.
Robert Brunner (07:54):
It's very exciting. It's very fun, actually, but it's, it's a new deal.
Jennifer Strong (07:58):
Is there a product today that gets it right?
Robert Brunner (08:01):
I don't, I don't know right now. I mean, you know, one of the first things we worked on that had a degree of intelligence was the June oven. I don't know if you're familiar with that product. So the June oven was a simple countertop oven that had computer vision. When you put your food in it, it recognized that food. It helped you select a recipe. Then as you were cooking it, along the way, it gave you instruction and told you, you know, what to do and so forth. So, you know, even though that was a relatively simple level of intelligence, what it did right, and where I think we r - were potentially running into problems is that it didn't, it took away complexity, right? It took, it, some decisions you didn't have to make, it took on for you and helped you through them and, and allowed that process to move more silly.
Robert Brunner (08:55):
So, so it was less about, it was about doing more, it was about actually doing less. Mm-hmm. And the other thing I always point out about that particular product is we could have made it look like a lot of things, right? But we felt it was important that it look like an oven. And because people understand it and it gives them an entry point. And again, one thing that's, uh, a real temptation right now is to completely rethink everything from the ground up, um, because we're building an intelligence. But again, that can be a mistake because what is, what it, it can do is create barriers for people and, and, and take away understanding that doesn't have to be taken away. Yeah. That familiarity becomes increasingly important as you add intelligence into a product.
Jennifer Strong (09:41):
Makes sense. Your firm also designed a limitless pen. Yeah. And could you just talk us through that for folks in the room who may not know what that is?
Robert Brunner (09:49):
Yeah. Well, limitless, which was, uh, acquired by Meta, was, was a simple wearable device. And, and in today's vernacular, there's a number of products about note takers for, for meeting transcription and so forth. So it was one of the very first ones that, that utilized that technology, but it was a, a different idea. The, the founder of the company, Dan Soroker, was, was very interested in how technology could augment the human body. And so what he really saw was, was a memory augmentation device. And so it was less about, you know, in part about sort of chronicling a meeting, but more importantly, it was there to capture your conversations and capture your thoughts and allow them to be searchable and retrievable and contextualized. So, but when you start talking about wearable products, there's some really interesting things that, that begin to happen. In this case, I mean, first of all, it doesn't work unless people wear it all the time, right?
Robert Brunner (10:48):
And what you find about the, the junk bin of wearable products is many of them people just don't want to wear. So to make it wearable, we made it, you could fasten it in a variety of places. We designed it more like a quiet piece of jewelry, like a sophisticated watch. It came in different colors. You could cook it on different areas. So we made it more positive. But then you get to the point, which is really the sticking point about wearable right now, which is the social, right? So, because when you, when you're designing a wearable product like this, or the now infamous metaglasses, you actually are designing for two groups. You're designing for the people wearing it, but you also have to be designing it for everybody else. The guy
Jennifer Strong (11:31):
Next to you. Yes.
Robert Brunner (11:32):
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you don't do that and you aren't, don't build it in a way that, that can as seamlessly as possible, create permission to be wearing it, it's probably gonna fail. Right. And that's, that's the big problem about this sort of generational wearable technology that's watching and listening. And it's different than being in the context of recording a meeting. Mm-hmm. You know, because of Zoom and other things, I think people have gotten used to the idea of meetings being recorded. And that, that happens anyway, right? Usually there's someone taking notes and so, and there's, you have witnesses around, you know, what you've said. So that works. But again, you take that out in the wild and all of a sudden it's, it's partially a design problem, but a much larger social problem. And if you don't watch it, you end up what's happened with, with the, with the metaglasses where it gets, you know, all of a sudden you're the pervert glasses, right?
Robert Brunner (12:24):
So it's, it's, it's a very complex thing that has to be developed and managed. And when you're designing the, a wearable, it's systemic. You can't look at it as an isolated thing. It's all systemic.
Jennifer Strong (12:38):
Was there something you learned from that experience that you don't think you could have learned any other way, perhaps?
Robert Brunner (12:44):
Yeah, I think so, because again, that was what I was talking about. Until you, you know, you think you've got it figured out. Okay, it's got an LED and it tells people it's recording. Okay, that's, there's the, your permission. But what I learned is that's, that's not enough. And honestly, I don't quite know what the answer is. Right. And we are evolving and it may change where people are more comfortable with this idea, but they certainly aren't now. So again, what I learned was what's as important to the design and designing for the person and designing for the body is to really understand the social context. And it's part of it's a design and part of it is how you describe and how you actually build trust in that product.
Jennifer Strong (13:26):
Right. That's what I was sitting here thinking. It's a design problem, but it's also a trust problem. And I'm not sure you can, whatever you, whatever it looks like, I'm not sure you can solve the trust thing with looks alone.
Robert Brunner (13:38):
Yeah. No, it's, it's, yeah, it, there, there's a foundational thing around trust that has to be built, right? Yeah. And if you don't trust the object as the person being in the room with it, y- you're gonna reject it.
Jennifer Strong (13:50):
You said behavior is the new interface. How do you design for that?
Robert Brunner (13:55):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And, and behavior is really very critical right now in terms of how we're looking at AI and products, because it is an area where it gets back to trust, right? Right. And you're going to begin... You can, again, put out all the information you want about a product, but people will not trust it unless it behaves in a way that, that they feel they can trust. Right. It's predictable, right? There's an understanding of what it's sensing and what it's seeing. Mm-hmm. There's a clear boundaries around the data it's creating and where it goes and who's seeing it. Yep. It's predictable. You know, you know what it's gonna do. Mm-hmm. And ultimately, if it's something's gone wrong, I can shut it down, right? Right. Those are all these different layers that start to build this idea of trust, and that, that all stems from behavior.
Robert Brunner (14:48):
Yep. And how something goes. So when we start now, what we're doing, again, we used to be designing something that was static. We viewed it as relatively static. Now it's not static. And then I'm not j - talking about humanoid robots. I mean, just virtually all kinds of products with intelligence that end up in your life where it is now evolving and changing and its behavior is something that is now what you deal with. That's why I say it's the new interface. Sure. Behavior, the thing is now how you're interacting with products.
Jennifer Strong (15:18):
It's so funny because it takes me back to something I wrote eight, nine years ago that I didn't think of as particularly, I don't know, interesting to say for AI to be useful, it needs to become boring. But AI, I think still needs to be a little bit boring to be really useful in that it needs to be predictable. Yeah.
Robert Brunner (15:34):
Well, and there's another area which I think is not being thought about at all right now that we're trying to consider, and that's the idea of restraint. Yes. Right? It, when is it not gonna talk to you? When is it gonna stop talking to you? W - you know, when is, you know, sort of it, things need to be built with restraint in mind because that again becomes something that's gonna create that connection with things that you will trust and grow with.
Jennifer Strong (16:01):
So what's next for you?
Robert Brunner (16:04):
Well, we're doing, uh, it's, I was talking to you earlier, it's interesting where we are in San Francisco, and I've been doing this so long that there are these waves that come through the technology business. Um, and of course right now being very deep into artificial intelligence. And as I said, it's, it's different. The speed, the magnitude - Right. Is, but we're, um, we're continue, we're working in robotics. We're, we're working in wearables. Um, we're actually part of a, a foundational group on a, a new company that has to do with, um, household intelligence and figuring out what that means. Mm-hmm. Um, we're, so it, so it's, we're very deep into it. And, you know, I often wonder why I'm here in the stage talking to people about artificial intelligence given, you know, I'm an art school grad, but we've ended up at the forefront of figuring out of how do we take this thing called, you know, this embodied intelligence into things - Yeah.
Robert Brunner (17:04):
And make it work in a way that is beneficial to the consumer, beneficial to the manufacturer, makes sense, right? So, so right now, we're just kind of doing a set across a variety of things of figuring out what is, what is AI and - Yeah. It's, and as I said, it's, it's, for us, it's a new design material, like wood, glass, metal, right? Right. It's, now we're designing intelligence.
Jennifer Strong (17:29):
What an incredible time to be alive, right?
Robert Brunner (17:31):
Yes, it is. Yeah, it's fun.
Jennifer Strong (17:33):
So what do you think has to be true five years from now to be able to look back and say, "Yes, this has earned people's trust?" Um - Not just got it, but earned it.
Robert Brunner (17:42):
Yeah, I think I've been saying a lot of these things, but it's, yeah, it, the trust has to be earned. It's the first thing that anybody building, um, products like this have to understand that you are not gonna go out and, you know, send out some information and say, "Look, you can trust us, right? You can trust our products. So that trust has to be earned. It has to be earned through behavior. And, and it has to be earned through restraint. So, you know, five years from now, if I'm looking back on this, it's, and it's successful, we'll see that it's, it's become embedded in people's lives, but be - not just because of what it does, it's the fact that we've learned through experience that we can trust the technology, trust the companies providing it and allow it into our lives and allow it into our homes.
Jennifer Strong (18:27):
This has been great. Thank you so much. And thank you all for being here.
Jennifer Strong (18:32):
This episode was produced by me and Emma Silicons and mixed by Garrett Lang with original music from him and Jacob Gorski. Thanks for listening. I'm Jennifer Strong.
As AI moves beyond the screen and into the physical world, the next generation of intelligent products will be defined less by bigger models than by context, trust, and the ability to act. I recently caught up with renowned industrial designer, Robert Brunner. His work is in the permanent collections of places like the Museum of Modern Art and the Smithsonian. He's designed a number of products that have gone on to define the way we live with technology, including Apple's original Power Book and the headphones Beats by Dr. Dre. He believes thoughtfully designed hardware is essential to AI's future. And this week, he tells us how he believes the most valuable products will earn their place in people's everyday lives. I'm Jennifer Strong, and this is SHIFT.
SHOW THEME (00:52):
Here on the steering column is a device called auto cruise. You simply set the speed you want - Self-driving robo taxis are already on the road in two Cities. As a discrotates, a mirror reflects the light in the way that depends on how the signal was recorded. This Is the 100 Terabyte. I present to you, Electro, the motoman, ladies and gentlemen. I would say that one of my greatest skills is my ability to interact with Humans.
Jennifer Strong (01:23):
This episode was taped before a live audience at the tech conference, HumanX, in Amsterdam.
Robert Brunner (01:53):
Honestly, it's, it's insane, right? The, uh, design we developed 35 years ago - uh-huh. Is the, still the foundation for every notebook computer that's made. Technology changes, but it's still the same basic design. So
Jennifer Strong (02:08):
What made that design finish in a way that most tech products never are?
Robert Brunner (02:12):
Well, I don't know if any product is ever finished, but I think the thing that made that design so durable is that it really is a reflection of a human workspace, right? It's really was set up, we built it from scratch around the idea of mobile computing, and that's what defined it. And that's what was the breakthrough and the configuration of creating this consistent work surface. And no matter where you go, you have this consistent place to work. And at the time, all the other, uh, manufacturers of the world were just basically shrinking down desktops, you know, to be somewhat smaller than a briefcase where we just started from scratch. It was a very Apple thing to do. And we hit onto something that just, like I said, is, it, it's crazy that it's still the same design. But when you think about it, it's, you talk about finishing.
Robert Brunner (03:01):
Mm-hmm. You know, a design which has that sort of integrity around its purpose are the ones that sort of last through the waves of technology and change.
Jennifer Strong (03:11):
Well, physical AI, those products don't get to be finished, right? Yeah. Because they continue to develop and learn after they leave the factory. So how does that change what good design even means?
Robert Brunner (03:23):
It changes a lot. I mean, on one hand, we're doing the things we've always done, but now we have this idea that this, as you said, the design continues to evolve. Once someone owns it, it, it, you're, it's not done, right? So you deliver it to people and it provides functionality. But now you have products that have the ability to understand and operate with agency - uh-huh. And continue to evolve and grow with their audience. So all of a sudden the, the idea and the responsibility of the designer changes and it gets much more complicated on how we're building these things.
Jennifer Strong (03:59):
As you said, mobile changed everything, connectivity changed everything, then cloud. So what's the shift now? In practical terms, what does it mean?
Robert Brunner (04:08):
Well, it's, it's different, you know, and it's, for me, I, you know, I've been doing this for a long time and I've actually been designing products through every major shift in personal technology. I mean, started out doing the first personal computers where you were taking computing and putting it in people's hands and giving them more control. Then it was the internet, which allowed so much more information at your fingertips and allowed you to do more. Then it was mobile, which gave you context and location. Then, then we went to cloud, which allowed continuity across so many things. And now we get to artificial intelligence, which, you know, I don't, for me, it's actually a new design material. It's different than all the other transitions. It's somehow much more consequential, and it's really changing the role of a designer in how we develop products.
Jennifer Strong (05:00):
And just to be clear, how would you differentiate between something that's smart and something that's physical AI, or do you?
Robert Brunner (05:07):
Well, the idea of smart products is when looking back now, they're actually quite dumb. Right. Right? And, and I, you know, I have a personal story that my wife and I built a house about 10 years ago, amazing home. And, and, you know, given who I am and what I was doing at the time, I wanted to make it as smart a home as possible, spend enormous amount of time and money. Everything in the house that, that can be hooked up to a central processing unit is. And so I do this thing. And so what do I end up with? You know, well, I can set schedules, turn things on and off. Right. I can operate it remotely, right? Mm-hmm. But it doesn't know who I am. It doesn't know when I'm there or anyone from my family's there. It doesn't know what we're doing.
Robert Brunner (05:56):
Right. It doesn't know what the weather is. It doesn't know anything, right? So what you realize is that the products that, of that era from the inter - uh, internet of things, right, really was just simply about connectivity. They aren't smart at all. So now we're looking at, okay, if I took that same example, my, my thermostat actually understood when we're there, when we're not, what's going on, if our lighting knew whether we were having a party or not, right? It's all these things that you could start building this, this idea of context and then begin to look at, you know, and you give it agency, you end up with this thing called judgment. Right. Which is a fundamentally new idea for products. Yeah. And I'm not just talking about robotics, right, with these humanoid robots and so on. I'm talking about very simple everyday things that all of a sudden can understand the situation that they're in and make judgments on their own.
Robert Brunner (06:52):
And that changes everything.
Jennifer Strong (06:53):
It changes everything, but it might be helpful for folks in the room. Like, so what's something it changes just so we can make this tangible?
Robert Brunner (07:01):
From a design point of view? Mm-hmm. Well, you know, when you, when we start looking at, as I said, we do the things we've always done in developing a product, but the, the level that we do them is changing, right? And so what we find ourselves, you know, when we always have worked in collaborative teams, but the, those teams are expanding - uh-huh. Into ethics and psychology, right? Where now, you know, what we are doing, and we always have walked through scenarios, but now there, it's almost like theater, right, in which we're building out scenarios and, and looking at anticipating behavior and prototyping and mimicking that behavior to define what the best possible way that we could describe for the intelligence to be operating in. So it's sort of taken this, this new level where we're looking at how we design a product in a totally different context.
Robert Brunner (07:54):
It's very exciting. It's very fun, actually, but it's, it's a new deal.
Jennifer Strong (07:58):
Is there a product today that gets it right?
Robert Brunner (08:01):
I don't, I don't know right now. I mean, you know, one of the first things we worked on that had a degree of intelligence was the June oven. I don't know if you're familiar with that product. So the June oven was a simple countertop oven that had computer vision. When you put your food in it, it recognized that food. It helped you select a recipe. Then as you were cooking it, along the way, it gave you instruction and told you, you know, what to do and so forth. So, you know, even though that was a relatively simple level of intelligence, what it did right, and where I think we r - were potentially running into problems is that it didn't, it took away complexity, right? It took, it, some decisions you didn't have to make, it took on for you and helped you through them and, and allowed that process to move more silly.
Robert Brunner (08:55):
So, so it was less about, it was about doing more, it was about actually doing less. Mm-hmm. And the other thing I always point out about that particular product is we could have made it look like a lot of things, right? But we felt it was important that it look like an oven. And because people understand it and it gives them an entry point. And again, one thing that's, uh, a real temptation right now is to completely rethink everything from the ground up, um, because we're building an intelligence. But again, that can be a mistake because what is, what it, it can do is create barriers for people and, and, and take away understanding that doesn't have to be taken away. Yeah. That familiarity becomes increasingly important as you add intelligence into a product.
Jennifer Strong (09:41):
Makes sense. Your firm also designed a limitless pen. Yeah. And could you just talk us through that for folks in the room who may not know what that is?
Robert Brunner (09:49):
Yeah. Well, limitless, which was, uh, acquired by Meta, was, was a simple wearable device. And, and in today's vernacular, there's a number of products about note takers for, for meeting transcription and so forth. So it was one of the very first ones that, that utilized that technology, but it was a, a different idea. The, the founder of the company, Dan Soroker, was, was very interested in how technology could augment the human body. And so what he really saw was, was a memory augmentation device. And so it was less about, you know, in part about sort of chronicling a meeting, but more importantly, it was there to capture your conversations and capture your thoughts and allow them to be searchable and retrievable and contextualized. So, but when you start talking about wearable products, there's some really interesting things that, that begin to happen. In this case, I mean, first of all, it doesn't work unless people wear it all the time, right?
Robert Brunner (10:48):
And what you find about the, the junk bin of wearable products is many of them people just don't want to wear. So to make it wearable, we made it, you could fasten it in a variety of places. We designed it more like a quiet piece of jewelry, like a sophisticated watch. It came in different colors. You could cook it on different areas. So we made it more positive. But then you get to the point, which is really the sticking point about wearable right now, which is the social, right? So, because when you, when you're designing a wearable product like this, or the now infamous metaglasses, you actually are designing for two groups. You're designing for the people wearing it, but you also have to be designing it for everybody else. The guy
Jennifer Strong (11:31):
Next to you. Yes.
Robert Brunner (11:32):
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you don't do that and you aren't, don't build it in a way that, that can as seamlessly as possible, create permission to be wearing it, it's probably gonna fail. Right. And that's, that's the big problem about this sort of generational wearable technology that's watching and listening. And it's different than being in the context of recording a meeting. Mm-hmm. You know, because of Zoom and other things, I think people have gotten used to the idea of meetings being recorded. And that, that happens anyway, right? Usually there's someone taking notes and so, and there's, you have witnesses around, you know, what you've said. So that works. But again, you take that out in the wild and all of a sudden it's, it's partially a design problem, but a much larger social problem. And if you don't watch it, you end up what's happened with, with the, with the metaglasses where it gets, you know, all of a sudden you're the pervert glasses, right?
Robert Brunner (12:24):
So it's, it's, it's a very complex thing that has to be developed and managed. And when you're designing the, a wearable, it's systemic. You can't look at it as an isolated thing. It's all systemic.
Jennifer Strong (12:38):
Was there something you learned from that experience that you don't think you could have learned any other way, perhaps?
Robert Brunner (12:44):
Yeah, I think so, because again, that was what I was talking about. Until you, you know, you think you've got it figured out. Okay, it's got an LED and it tells people it's recording. Okay, that's, there's the, your permission. But what I learned is that's, that's not enough. And honestly, I don't quite know what the answer is. Right. And we are evolving and it may change where people are more comfortable with this idea, but they certainly aren't now. So again, what I learned was what's as important to the design and designing for the person and designing for the body is to really understand the social context. And it's part of it's a design and part of it is how you describe and how you actually build trust in that product.
Jennifer Strong (13:26):
Right. That's what I was sitting here thinking. It's a design problem, but it's also a trust problem. And I'm not sure you can, whatever you, whatever it looks like, I'm not sure you can solve the trust thing with looks alone.
Robert Brunner (13:38):
Yeah. No, it's, it's, yeah, it, there, there's a foundational thing around trust that has to be built, right? Yeah. And if you don't trust the object as the person being in the room with it, y- you're gonna reject it.
Jennifer Strong (13:50):
You said behavior is the new interface. How do you design for that?
Robert Brunner (13:55):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And, and behavior is really very critical right now in terms of how we're looking at AI and products, because it is an area where it gets back to trust, right? Right. And you're going to begin... You can, again, put out all the information you want about a product, but people will not trust it unless it behaves in a way that, that they feel they can trust. Right. It's predictable, right? There's an understanding of what it's sensing and what it's seeing. Mm-hmm. There's a clear boundaries around the data it's creating and where it goes and who's seeing it. Yep. It's predictable. You know, you know what it's gonna do. Mm-hmm. And ultimately, if it's something's gone wrong, I can shut it down, right? Right. Those are all these different layers that start to build this idea of trust, and that, that all stems from behavior.
Robert Brunner (14:48):
Yep. And how something goes. So when we start now, what we're doing, again, we used to be designing something that was static. We viewed it as relatively static. Now it's not static. And then I'm not j - talking about humanoid robots. I mean, just virtually all kinds of products with intelligence that end up in your life where it is now evolving and changing and its behavior is something that is now what you deal with. That's why I say it's the new interface. Sure. Behavior, the thing is now how you're interacting with products.
Jennifer Strong (15:18):
It's so funny because it takes me back to something I wrote eight, nine years ago that I didn't think of as particularly, I don't know, interesting to say for AI to be useful, it needs to become boring. But AI, I think still needs to be a little bit boring to be really useful in that it needs to be predictable. Yeah.
Robert Brunner (15:34):
Well, and there's another area which I think is not being thought about at all right now that we're trying to consider, and that's the idea of restraint. Yes. Right? It, when is it not gonna talk to you? When is it gonna stop talking to you? W - you know, when is, you know, sort of it, things need to be built with restraint in mind because that again becomes something that's gonna create that connection with things that you will trust and grow with.
Jennifer Strong (16:01):
So what's next for you?
Robert Brunner (16:04):
Well, we're doing, uh, it's, I was talking to you earlier, it's interesting where we are in San Francisco, and I've been doing this so long that there are these waves that come through the technology business. Um, and of course right now being very deep into artificial intelligence. And as I said, it's, it's different. The speed, the magnitude - Right. Is, but we're, um, we're continue, we're working in robotics. We're, we're working in wearables. Um, we're actually part of a, a foundational group on a, a new company that has to do with, um, household intelligence and figuring out what that means. Mm-hmm. Um, we're, so it, so it's, we're very deep into it. And, you know, I often wonder why I'm here in the stage talking to people about artificial intelligence given, you know, I'm an art school grad, but we've ended up at the forefront of figuring out of how do we take this thing called, you know, this embodied intelligence into things - Yeah.
Robert Brunner (17:04):
And make it work in a way that is beneficial to the consumer, beneficial to the manufacturer, makes sense, right? So, so right now, we're just kind of doing a set across a variety of things of figuring out what is, what is AI and - Yeah. It's, and as I said, it's, it's, for us, it's a new design material, like wood, glass, metal, right? Right. It's, now we're designing intelligence.
Jennifer Strong (17:29):
What an incredible time to be alive, right?
Robert Brunner (17:31):
Yes, it is. Yeah, it's fun.
Jennifer Strong (17:33):
So what do you think has to be true five years from now to be able to look back and say, "Yes, this has earned people's trust?" Um - Not just got it, but earned it.
Robert Brunner (17:42):
Yeah, I think I've been saying a lot of these things, but it's, yeah, it, the trust has to be earned. It's the first thing that anybody building, um, products like this have to understand that you are not gonna go out and, you know, send out some information and say, "Look, you can trust us, right? You can trust our products. So that trust has to be earned. It has to be earned through behavior. And, and it has to be earned through restraint. So, you know, five years from now, if I'm looking back on this, it's, and it's successful, we'll see that it's, it's become embedded in people's lives, but be - not just because of what it does, it's the fact that we've learned through experience that we can trust the technology, trust the companies providing it and allow it into our lives and allow it into our homes.
Jennifer Strong (18:27):
This has been great. Thank you so much. And thank you all for being here.
Jennifer Strong (18:32):
This episode was produced by me and Emma Silicons and mixed by Garrett Lang with original music from him and Jacob Gorski. Thanks for listening. I'm Jennifer Strong.
