Kristen Cerelli 0:00
Every week on our regular episodes of shift shift Blum, I get to interview people whose lives are very different from mine. And we talk about how each has navigated the twists and turns inherent in transformation. But I wonder what's universal about how people change? What are the common threads, the connective tissue, I tend to look at change through the lens of my own experience, for the most part, the artists life. Lucky for us, my curiosity is shared by the CO creator of shift shift bloom. Dr. John Lyons, luminary and author in the field of clinical psychology and systems change, who better to help me unpack all the questions that fill my mind when the interviews are over. I'm Kristen Cerelli, and you're listening to shift shift bloom, T calm takeaways, my conversation with Dr. John Lyons about a recent interview.
Joining me in the teacup studio today is Dr. John Lyons. And we're going to talk about my interview with Dr. Greg Dyke. And, John, I know you have been waiting for this one. You really wanted this one to happen. We weren't sure if it was going to happen. And it did so. So let's jump right in. What What are your thoughts?
John Lyons 1:33
Yeah, so I'm quite happy that Greg agreed to to do the interview. I met him at the farmers market and Lexington and he was this guy of indeterminate age sitting at this tended table advertising yak jerky. And so me being me, I, I bought some yak jerky because it was different. And when you read it a little blurb, it's it's fairly cool, both in terms of being healthy and being more eco friendly. And when I was a kid, my siblings and I used to joke around and call each other like diseased Yaks and that kind of stuff. So. So the Yak has sort of a history for me as a as an amusing animal, although very huge. And they look prehistoric, actually. But anyway, so. So I started talking to him, because I'd go each week, and each week I advise him, yeah, jerky. And I just thought to myself, and right around the time we decided to do this podcast, I'm thinking to myself, This guy's got to have a story. I mean, you're a yak rancher. In Kentucky, there's got to be a story there. So
Kristen Cerelli 2:43
yeah, I didn't realize that you had sort of an ongoing relationship with Him. at the farmers market. I thought it was a one time meeting. That just got you kind of curious. But that that's funny. Now, let me stop.
John Lyons 2:58
He's not he's not a one time guy. Right? It's sort of like a process of warming up.
Kristen Cerelli 3:03
Yes. That's really that's reflective of my experience with him in the interview process too. And you can really also tell where he's starting to warm up at the end of the interview. And then when we get to talking about the yaks, his whole spirit really changes his whole tone of voice. So that was really interesting,
John Lyons 3:24
was actually one of my observations is actually your interview style changed a bit with his more engineering analytical style. So which I thought was fascinating. Oftentimes, with the other people, you've had sort of more of a softer kind of way of interviewing and with the with Greg, I think you and he both kind of went at it from a more directed sort of way, which I thought was just fascinating to listen to the how relationships are defined by the dyad. And not by each individual in that diet. I was interesting.
Kristen Cerelli 3:56
Yeah, he had a real different temperament I thought than some of the other guests. And so I don't think I made a conscious effort to change but he sort of had that irascible uncle, sort of personality to him. And so it was definitely a different different for me to where do you want to start? What,
John Lyons 4:18
what, like seven different I'm a little bit or a Christian because I've noticed as I listen to the tea calm takeaway is that each week, I'm adding more and more kind of things that I noticed we had five
Kristen Cerelli 4:30
last week. Now you've had a
John Lyons 4:34
little bit worried about what that means for the future. But anyway, so I will try and keep it focused. But there was there were seven things in particular that he said that I had a comment about, perhaps, and I'm not sure there's any order to them. I have them in the order in which he said them maybe useful so I can kind of begin to talk through those things, but he's clearly a smart guy. He thinks about what he does and that's that's a on Nice, cool aspect of who he is. So do you want me to just do it linearly, like the interview?
Kristen Cerelli 5:04
Let's do it unless I cut you off and jump one of your points. But yeah, let's do it in a linear way.
John Lyons 5:09
So I thought his point about social justice is first a way of thinking before it's a way of doing it was a really important point. And think about what that means in terms of helping people embrace social justice, that it's not performative. First, it's conceptual, and that we have to kind of help people begin to wrap their heads around that in a way that's inclusive in a way that's inviting to people who are not already singing in the choir. So I just thought that was an important point that the doing needs to be done first, within a context of thinking. And he kind of did that from a variety of different perspectives. So clearly, it was an issue that he believed in, you know, we're age cohorts. I was sitting there throughout the interview, wondering how old he was because I literally wouldn't meet him. You know, good luck guessing. Right.
Kristen Cerelli 6:03
He has a very youthful voice as well, you know, there's something very vigorous about his voice. Yeah. Yeah. So
John Lyons 6:09
I figured he was at least in his late 40s. And he couldn't be at but I had no idea. Right? So he's in my age cohorts. So you know, in that kind of the social movement generation was the start, man. So I thought he kind of captured and, and carried forward, it reminded me of the kinds of stuff that I was involved in, and so far, so that was sort of like nice to hear the, you know, boomers are now a label that are used to discriminate, right, so and, but there's a range of boomers. And there's a subset of people in that generation, like, Greg that are really good people really committed to the right thing. And I've helped set the stage for things that are happening now. I just don't think it's as important before people just use a label on anybody, let alone a generation realize that there's variability there.
Kristen Cerelli 7:05
Yeah. And it's a really big generation. So it's really not fair and not right to categorize everyone who's born between those years as one kind of person. I just wanted to jump in and say, that really jumped out at me too. I think I had to check my own preconceived notion a little bit at the door, because when you're dealing with someone who has a religious background, and he brought that, that framework of thinking about social justice into the conversation around seminary, I realized how I didn't expect those two things two go together, which is naive and ignorant and away on my part, but it's really more about my own feelings about the church, how much as soon as I hear church, I get my, my, you know, lapsed Catholic armor on and I don't think there can be anything good coming out of it, you know, and so that that was a good check in for me like, oh, yeah, you know, he went to the same seminary as Martin Luther King, Jr. and big social justice thinkers.
John Lyons 8:12
Yes. And so, I think, unfortunately, and I think a part of it is a reality and a part of it is a media portrayal. Religion gets presented and this fundamentalist kind of way and absolutely not, I don't even really mean fundamentalist, because that's actually a set of beliefs, but absolutist kind of way, you know, my way or the highway and, you know, the anti trans anti gay kind of stuff that gets the media attention, but it misses the vast majority of spiritual and religious people that are actually following the teachings of their there are particular religions, which invariably involve diversity, equity and inclusion, which are the buzzwords of today. But, you know, if you think about, What would Jesus do, I mean, he would be in the forefront of diversity, equity inclusion. And so I think it's an unfair portrayal of religion. Because just because you're a Christian, doesn't mean you're Christ like, and, you know, figuring out the distinction between the belief systems, and how some people practice them within that belief systems is a tricky thing for us to do. And again, these kind of broad brushstroke labels gets in the way of us understanding the nuances of those things. So I thought that I didn't he didn't strike me as religious at all actually struck me as thoughtfully spiritual. And the spirit being more like nature more like the Earth, more like a traditional cultural view of religion as opposed to other kind of the manufacture and ceremony. Do you have religion that we sometimes see? Great point? The second thing that I was struck by is the randomness of opportunity and convenience in our lives. Right. So he goes through any door, right, which is another point down the road, and maybe I can kind of combine them because I think they're related, you know that that philosophy, if you see an open door, or maybe you should go through it. I think that's a great philosophy. It's a frightening philosophy, I'm sure. Although it seems like he is sufficiently self confident, and yes, that he doesn't struggle with that. And he doesn't do second thoughts, particularly so, you know, no regrets. So, I think that, but the reality of the opportunity and convenience, you know, in terms of how that sort of directs the random walk that we all take through our lives,
Kristen Cerelli:
10:56
what do you mean by convenience? We know what randomness is. But in this case, what do you mean by convenience?
John Lyons:
11:03
Well, remember, he picked his seminary because it's the one within 100 miles the only one? That's convenience, right, it's, it's easier to do that and do something else. So that's what I mean, it's easier to do something that's in your neighborhood than it is to do something in somebody else's neighborhood. So convenience, definitely factors into our decision making. So but so does opportunity.
Kristen Cerelli:
11:28
Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder how many times we make really big decisions. And we lean towards convenience. Just because, logistically, when you start to factor in all of the other things that are inconvenient, you're probably apt to not go that way.
John Lyons:
11:48
Yeah, we may reframe it as the path of least resistance or some other kind of positive framing, because sometimes convenience is seen as a Slack ask kind of approach to living. But I think it's really fundamental, I suspect a lot of what we decide a lot of how we the pathways we choose, do have, have to do with convenience have to do with what's the easier path. You know, life is hard enough as it is without choosing to make it more difficult for yourself by making yourself inconvenient. Now, we really haven't actually talked to anybody who purposely inconvenience themselves for the experience of change, to make it harder. At least I haven't heard that. Yeah, I'm sure there are people that do that. I think I know some people who have done that. But, you know, those are the people who like to do the survivalist. They'd be on survivor, alone in the woods United at her an interview with a guy who won the loan contest, you know, he said, you know, you better be comfortable with yourself if you're going to be sitting in the wilderness by yourself for months, with nobody else there. Right. So there is that kind of person who likes to challenge themselves. But I think most of us we get enough challenge just by trying to keep our feet moving in front of us or beneath this.
Kristen Cerelli:
13:11
Yeah, and he points out this is related to what you're talking about that some opportunities random and or convenient, or both or neither. You also have to weigh who's going with you through that door. And so at some earlier points in his life, he had more responsibilities with growing children and a marriage and when he was divorced, it was just him so maybe you can even be a little bit more likely to take an inconvenient choice or make take a risk when there aren't other people counting on you.
John Lyons:
13:49
Or it redefines the nature of convenience right? It changes the parameters by which you judge convenient Yes. I mean, my career in part is defined by staying in Chicago after I did my graduate studies because it was convenient could have gone somewhere else. But I stayed and I actually looked to go someplace else but it was convenient at the time to choose to stay there
Kristen Cerelli:
14:14
well Tron as we know to moving is the ultimate and inconvenience I mean, having to pack up and get your shes somewhere else and unpack it when you get there. Unless you are a complete minimalist is one of the most hugely inconvenient things in life.
John Lyons:
14:38
Yes, that is we both know that from recent experience. You're more than me. What's number three? Okay, well, we already talked about that sort of cuz that's when the doors open and walk through it. So I think that's, you know, that taking opportunities when they present themselves, which is a combination of randomness and convenience. I think I'm privileged probably. So that's probably where we need to think through how do you create doors for people that don't see them and or don't actually have them conveniently identified for them. So I think that's important. But the spirit of that is just so, so cool so profoundly, I think important for our, you know, experiencing the adventure of living, you see an updated ticket. It's it's really about risk taking, I suppose, although he didn't really think a hit. And I'm wondering about this, what I was thinking about as listening to him, is he didn't seem to weigh his decision, like in risk benefit analysis, even though he is an analyst, he just was confident enough. That's funny, because he made that statement about this woman who is smarter than him, which whenever I hear somebody say that I know that they believe themselves to be pretty smart, right? Because if you're not smart in the first place, you're not going to be impressed by somebody who's smarter than you. Right? So you're not gonna say that as something impressive. So he's, he is smart, and he knows he's smart. And I think that gives him some confidence that is really, really powerfully important. And he owns his truth. I mean, he seems like he's extremely authentic and how he thinks about his living.
Kristen Cerelli:
16:29
Yeah, I would agree, his confidence really stands out to me. And that that does seem to play a role in maybe it doesn't even feel like a risk, when you have that much confidence, you know, you you it's confidence, and it's faith. I do find that now, I'm going to do the exact opposite of what I said we shouldn't do at the beginning, which is to say, I do find that Boomer men tend to be extremely confident, and self assured. And you know, they I think they backup their their decisions in their thoughts with research and knowledge. But I do find that to be a quality that seems to have permeated
John Lyons:
17:14
the generation. That's interesting. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know. I would, I would I would own that characteristic I have no one has ever accused me of not believing in myself, right? I do. Whatever. I do know, some of my colleagues. I know, actually, I think you might be on to something that's a part of gender expression, during that generation, because of the folks that I know that present themselves as less confident, are actually female. But they have the same skill sets as I do. But it's like they don't seem to feel like they have the permission to present themselves in this kind of confident way that somebody like art Tigris, Cynthia would present herself, right, which is the next generation after the boomers.
Kristen Cerelli:
18:08
Yeah. Well, that's interesting to think about what doors were not open for women at that time, even though it was the world was changing, and many doors were opening, but to it would be a different experience to be a man and a woman. And in that generation, as in all generations.
John Lyons:
18:26
Yeah, it opens that whole question of who decides that there's doors that are there and available and recognizing them? And when do you have to barge through them and push them open? And when are they fighting you through? Right? So those are all complicated kind of questions that are likely embedded in our concepts of privilege. And, but it's also random, you know, just literally random. So just like this happened, and there was this person I said, Nice to meet you. And sort of like the fact that Greg is a part of this podcast right on. It's random, but it was a door that presented itself. And, yes, I'm a little bit surprised he agreed to tell his story because he is a little bit more reserved. So I'm happy that he is because that's an important thing.
Kristen Cerelli:
19:15
Yeah, the first thing when I did the pre interview with him, we just talked on the phone for about 15 minutes. He said, Are you sure you want to interview me? You know, he did. He didn't really think what he would have to share would be, I don't know a value or exciting I think he doesn't really look back and think this is an exciting story. But I thought I convinced him otherwise.
John Lyons:
19:37
Well, actually, that brings up my next point. I'm not surprised he said that because he said something that made me very nostalgic. And I think this must be our, our generational podcast for generational concepts of change because he said do it but don't say anything about it. So that speaks to my generation that speaks to how I was raised as as you don't blow your own horn, right? You just simply don't, I can't tell you the number of times my mother said, Stop doing anything where you're bragging about yourself. You want other people to brag about you, and you brag about yourself. So, you know, that was always a little bit cocky, perhaps? I don't know. But yeah, so. So she was always on me about that issue, you know, do it. But don't say anything about it, wait for somebody else to recognize it. And now we see it our current world. It's not about doing it, it's about posting it before you do it on Facebook. And then once you do it, tweet it and get a picture of it and post that on Instagram. And it's created this culture where I worry that it's no longer about doing it. It's about saying that you're doing it, it's a performance art kind of way of living as opposed to actually doing it. And I think that's probably an unfair portrayal of the social media generation, because I suspect that a large number of people who just do it and don't say anything that actually were raised in ways that are very similar, but it does feel like sometimes that if you don't, if it doesn't appear on social media, it doesn't actually exist. And okay, but wow. I mean, that's, it changes the values, and you kind of see even how that has influenced our politics. You know, when Madison K, Catherine came to Congress, he didn't want to hire any policy. Staff, he only wanted to hire communication staff. Wow. So which means his view of legislating is communicating to his constituents, these are from whoever he's communicating to. Right. So that's a very different lens to think about leadership, that I'm gonna go to Congress and get some policy work done. I'm gonna go to Congress and communicate about this. Right. And so maybe that's good. Maybe that's not, but figuring out how to make it good, I think is probably going to be an important generational challenge.
Kristen Cerelli:
22:02
Yeah, I think I think the social media aspect of everything has, has benefits, and also has complicated things, in many ways. And I'm thinking about even even your remark about your mom saying, you know, piped down, let other people do the praising it's, that is very different. You know, in the late boomer parents and Gen X parents, they are tooting the horns of their children relentlessly. Online. And, you know, to the point where you kind of sometimes want to say, give it a rest, take a day off.
John Lyons:
22:45
Yeah, that my parents would not be doing that. Although, later in life, you know, my mother would write me letters, Dr. John, cheese, you're the only person that comes.
Kristen Cerelli:
22:55
That's very sweet. Well, I noticed though, that Greg, and I didn't ask in fairness, I didn't ask a lot of questions. But Greg hardly talked about his children. You know, he didn't really he kept the conversation to his professional achievements and his the beliefs that were guiding those changes in his professional life,
John Lyons:
23:20
which I think makes a lot of sense, because they're not on the podcast, right? They can't explain themselves, right. So, you know, it's fair to not pull them into the whole store.
Kristen Cerelli:
23:32
Tell me what number we're at and what and what,
John Lyons:
23:36
we're ready for five, which I think is something that actually, almost everybody has said, but in different ways, okay. And that is knowing what's important to you, as a really important piece of change is that you're not really going to change in any way unless you view it as important to you. And if you don't really know, or you can't articulate what is important to you, then you really can't, therefore change effectively, because you don't know that what you're doing is important to you, so that, you know knowing yourself and knowing what's important to you seems to me like a universal precursor of change that everybody we've talked to has had, in some ways talked about that, you know, mission, vision, philosophy, values, whatever labels that they might put on. It involves knowing who their what their heart is, knowing who they are knowing what they want in their life, as being an important part of deciding what to do next.
Kristen Cerelli:
24:44
Yeah, I don't know if we give people I want to say kids, but you know, kids, teens, young adults, I don't know if we give people time or or education in discerning their values, maybe if you maybe if you go to a religious based school, if you have a religious based education, you talk about values maybe from that perspective from that lens. But I'm thinking like in my public school education, sure, what subjects do you like? Sure what, you know, what are you thinking about doing with your life, but not a lot of unpacking of what do you value? What's important to you. And I think we only come to those crossroads in life when something is dissonant. And we have to then figure out why it's dissonant. And it usually leads to that conversation about maybe you're living in a way that's out of alignment with your values. And at that moment, you think, well, what are even my values? I know what my family values, I know what my culture values, but do I know what I as an individual really value? And I imagine that's getting harder for younger people to discern, also, because there's so much ingesting of cultural
John Lyons:
26:00
values. Yes, and we have a bad habit of telling everybody what their values are supposed to be. Right? I mean, that's kind of what almost everybody does, actually, is we tell people these are, these are my values, therefore, they need to be yours. Right. So there's that kind of built in sort of indoctrination of who you are, who you should be, depending on, but it varies by context, you know, by culture, by religion, by community. But it's all pretty much the same that you do get sort of indoctrinated into what you're supposed to. But I think, when you listen to actually all of our people who talk, they're always talking about how they adjusted, who they were, who they thought they were, what was important to them, in their own journey, independent to some extent of their, what they were told, you know, what they were first taught to, that they should believe in. So I think, regardless of how much time we spend indoctrinating people into their values, they're gonna have their own journey, and they're gonna decide for themselves, who they are. And I agree with you that we don't spend enough time helping young people figure that out on their own, because they have to figure it out on their own, they can't just read a book, or they can't just been told, this is what you should be, this is who you should be, they have to figure that out on their own, and they need to be able to articulate
Kristen Cerelli:
27:31
it. Yeah. And I think as you're talking, I'm thinking about Greg's story and what we call what you've given us the framework about randomness and convenience. And he's he kept feeding in that metaphor about walking through the open door, but I think, not to be too metaphysical on you. But this idea that his vibration was really strong about what he wanted to do, really, from what place he wanted to operate in life. And so I think he met doors opening in those domains, because he was really he he had assuredness about those values. And so he kept meeting opportunities to play out his participation in those values, and then being able to make changes based on those values. Whereas if you're wishy washy, and you don't know, and you haven't given it any thought, you're, you're probably not going to meet up with anything, particularly you know, that sets you on fire, because you're not on fire about anything, or you don't know what it is that you're on fire about,
John Lyons:
28:40
right? And that's the people who can't really decide what they want to do with their life. Right. So it's always better, Kristen, for you to get metaphysical on medieval Omni, so that's fine. It's okay to get metaphysical. So he's got, I've met him in person, of course, several times. And he has a vibe that he does. I mean, I'm not, I don't really talk in those terms, typically. But he does have this energy that you can feel when you meet him, right? So you could call it charisma. You could call it a vibe, you could call it energy. I don't know why, but it's real. I mean, you can feel it with him. And so that's what sort of, I think, attracted me to talk to him. It's like, Oh, this guy has something about him. That's interesting, that kind of draws you in. And I suspect that is a part of his secret, you know, superpowers, right, that it's he has that. And I suspect when he's working in New Orleans, that was invaluable. And when he's working in any era, and he's working, you know, and when he went to India, and when he even when he was an engineer, that that that kind of positive, energy, vibration, whatever is really important, powerful and useful.
Kristen Cerelli:
29:55
Yeah, you can even get it over a phone call. So He it might be generational. We didn't see each other on the computer screen as you and I are seeing now because we there were some technical difficulties and and so both times we just met with an oral an audio connection and it still comes across and is perhaps sort of the reason why my feedback loop with him my my way of dealing with him was different because he was different. He he's got a different energy, I think you I think you're right on it when you say energy than some of the other folks not better, just different.
John Lyons:
30:32
Just different. Yeah, yeah. Sort of sort of, like the difference between a high intensity electric wire versus something else. And like, there's something about him that has that kind of vibrating tension to that energy that's like, wow,
Kristen Cerelli:
30:51
yeah. And it's, it's really strong, you can't not feel it. It's just it's the strength of that, that current, you're like, You got to get on it, you get on his current with him in a way. Alright, so
John Lyons:
31:03
the next point, is his comment about workaholism. workaholics, which I think is another label that is problematic. Now that's sort of gone away that's generational. And I will admit to being labeled more than once in my career, my life as a workaholic. The language has evolved. So typically, it's more recently, you know, life work balance. I like the concept of life work harmony, which I think that's a more meaningful, I think, workaholic and life work balance is created to, I think it's resulting to trying to shame people who like to work and get their meaning from their work and saying you shouldn't do it, you know, your union busting, you're working too much. And I'm not working that hard. And you're getting meaning from your work. And I don't get meaning from my work. So I want you to take yoga classes instead, or learn to play the cello or whatever, which I call BS. So I think people should do what they like to do. And if people like to do work, and that's what gives them meaning in their lives, then, who are we to tell them that that's somehow a pathology? So I was, I think, if we had pulled that thread, he would have landed on the same place, because he kind of said, well, I'm not a workaholic. So but I liked the work, I've been say spends probably a lot of time working. So what is a workaholic, it's trying to make work into an addiction that has to be treated with detox and other kinds of stuff. And I think that's a really, really, really sad way of representing what most of us spend a significant amount of time in our lives doing. And if your work doesn't make you happy, it's not fundamentally your works fault. You need to find work, that actually makes you happy. Because if you're not getting meaning from what you're doing, then you need what lifework balance so you can find meaning outside what you're doing. But if you're getting your meaning from what you're doing, what's the what's the issue, you know,
Kristen Cerelli:
33:17
this is a big topic. This one hits me because I, I would say I don't call myself a workaholic. But I'm, I'm struggling to work.
John Lyons:
33:25
Yeah. Because it's what gives you meaning rather short gives you pleasure. Right? So and so what's what's, why does that have to be framed as some sort of, Well, originally as a, like a psychiatric disorder, and then more recently, as like a failure to achieve the ying and yang of life or some such thing? Yeah, lifework harmony, as long as everything's harmonious in your life, because that, to me seems like the concept that works well. And it's not judgmental, it's not pejorative to people who find their meaning from their profession. Yeah. And then the last point, the last thing that stuck out to me, in some ways might be the most important, particularly for our heart, likely listeners. And that's the power of helping. So he made a point about that. And he actually talked about it from a couple of different perspectives. But I think that point is really profoundly important. And this is particularly important. When you have people who have challenges in their life, and they spend their lives being helped, and they're not given any opportunity to help others. And that's a life sentence to meaninglessness. To be a recipient of health, help your entire life prevents you from experiencing the power of helping others. And so for instance, in our adult version of our mental health tools, we have As strength called volunteering, because the way we've set things up for people with serious mental illness, is they get a disability check. And then it becomes very, very hard to get off disability. Because if you get off disability, you're probably not making enough money to make ends meet. And so you're better off agreeing to live a life of poverty and disability than take the chance of shifting to the workforce where it's a little bit more iffy, and nothing is promised. But so you sit around, you're actually paid a small amount of money to do nothing. So you miss that part of the meaning of life. And if you don't have other ways of finding meaning, then that's just tragic. And so how you do you help people if they can't work, because they can't get paid, they can still volunteer, they can give back because it's in the Giving back is often just like teaching is more powerful than taking teaching a class, you learn way more than taking a class, helping others, you actually get more out of than being helped. And if we deny some people from the opportunity to help others, that's just denying them a significant source of power and meaning in their lives. So I was struck by that, and it hits home for me. And one of the things that we tried to do within the tea calm space, which is turn the tables and people who have challenges are not commodities have the system that we just have to pour services on their people. And they're people with aspirations. And they're people with strengths. And they're people who can have meaningful lives. And we need to figure out ways to help them find their meaning and achieve that. And so I was really struck by that particular observation that Greg made, because I think it is profoundly important for our work.
Kristen Cerelli:
36:56
Yeah, he kind of his offerings on that topic, whether it was bringing up the concept of downward mobility, or just talking about different service projects got me really set off on reading and researching. And it was really compelling, to go follow those trails that he had sort of sprinkled out and just see sort of how what you're talking about, too, is is an ancient truth, that helping is hugely meaningful in our lives. And everyone should have the opportunity to offer what they have to someone.
John Lyons:
37:37
So and I think figuring out how to make that work, is a challenge in our current system structure. But it's not a it's not an impossible challenge. I mean, we it's interesting to me, because we have so in public. So most of our work is in either public behavioral health or in child welfare, or in the justice system, or so far. So we have a large number of people, I mean, literally 10s of millions of people that have decided, as a career choice to take career paths in which they're never really going to get paid anything remotely close to people who take a path down the business, the dare I say, the more capitalistic kind of part of our economy. And there's a major split my experience, and now that I'm old, I have lots of friends that took one path or the other. I have friends who took either path. A friend of mine who took the path to help at the sacrifice of money are far richer in their hearts today than those who have a boatload of money. So now my friend with a boatload of money are looking to give it away so that they can help. Right. Okay, that's fair. So maybe that's the cycle of how this all is designed to work.
Kristen Cerelli:
39:02
I gotta ask, how was the Yak jerky?
John Lyons:
39:07
Yeah, jerky is delicious. I love it. I love like yak jerky. I was sad when when the farmers market closed for the winter. So and he only he only slaughters a certain number of yaks. So you have to get it while it's there. But it's it's much much leaner. So the other thing that he didn't talk about, so you spent no time which is probably a good thing. So I'm going to break that. Sadly, you spoke note and you didn't speak about yak farting. Yak farting is important because that's why yaks are more eco friendly than cattle because there's less methane that are released from the Yak than there is from cattle. Yeah, so yak farting is actually the reason why yak ranching might actually be better for the environment. But the meat I mean, it tastes a lot like beef. Yeah, it's leaner. It's leaner, but it's quite tasty. Now I didn't like bite into the side of the Yaks. I didn't have yak sushi, you know, or something like that. So I don't really know exactly how it was, you know, prepared, it was prepared. I think I had the regular and the teriyaki. So, teriyaki yak tastes like teriyaki. Alright, so, so, but the meat itself is is pretty, pretty flavorful. And it's very lean if you don't get that same kind of taste of fat, so I would recommend it. So I buy my my grip teases me endlessly about the act jerky because I would bring it and I'd give it away but they all are now looking together at once it comes back this see this season,
Kristen Cerelli:
40:46
he started a trend now I think what we should do is have a field trip so we can have a supplementary video for this episode that we need to get to zebra Shanga. Yeah, Grant,
John Lyons:
40:59
I want to see you up next to a yak. I bet you do kinda tiny
Kristen Cerelli:
41:04
listeners. That's huge. They are enormous. They look enormous. So
John Lyons:
41:11
I would not even come up to their leg. I mean, you may not come up to their I mean, I don't know I haven't I haven't seen one in person, but they are really big animals.
Kristen Cerelli:
41:20
I guess we'll have to we'll have to go. We'll have to plan a trip and
John Lyons:
41:24
video, I talked to Greg and he said I could come any time. Because I told him I might bring a UK contingent out. So
Kristen Cerelli:
41:31
okay, and a camera crew. I'm just thinking, you know, we could we could wrap up right now. But there's something that sort of floating in the air with me, which is that,
John Lyons:
41:40
hopefully not a yak fart.
Kristen Cerelli:
41:44
To say it would be it would be a dog fart around here. Studio dog is not present right now. But it seems significant to me. And this will air very soon soon enough that this episode, which really speaks a lot into walking through doors and doors being open it this episode is happening as we've finally gotten the first black woman on the Supreme Court. And so I just wonder if you have any thoughts about that parting thoughts?
John Lyons:
42:23
I think that's a wonderful and way overdue breakthrough. And Judge Jackson seems like the perfect choice to be the person to crash that glass ceiling. It's tragic to me that there's so much partisan resistance to this, but that seems so what this all is our sad political state of affairs has become of posturing and creating quite literally a black and white society. It's either you're either this group, or you're that group. And if you're, it reminds me of the Dr. Seuss books, frankly, you know, the star on the belly or not kind of nonsense, right? And it's like, what I mean, don't we have some commonality? Don't we have things in common? Don't we have some shared? Values? Aren't we all like maybe Americans? But it's gotten so ridiculous that, you know, No, I disagree with somebody. So therefore, I'm not actually an American, I'm a something else right or, or your internet because you have these belief systems. And so we've stopped kind of talking to each other and stop kind of understanding each other. And we just get into this virtue signaling on both sides, right, the different virtues, but the same kind of virtue signaling constantly going on. That doesn't involve any real dialogue. And I just think, you know, the more we can figure out how we can recognize those things we have in common, and stop making absolutely every freaking thing about me or you my side, your side, you know, I've got a star in my belly. You don't? I think we'll be in a better place. But I'm not optimistic for anytime soon to get to that place, because it always blows me away the number of people who prefer to have this stance of I'm right, and you're wrong. What do you think? So
Kristen Cerelli:
44:27
I think I think part of it comes back to this idea that we ingest a lot of information and we like to stick our stake in the ground about things when we haven't really reflected on our own individual values and really unpacked issues from that point of view. And I think that's what those three Republican senators may have done is actually thought about their own values and the values of their constituents and see that they don't, they're not out of alignment with this nominee, you know, this person? Yep.
John Lyons:
45:03
I think you're right. I mean, because it is almost brain dead to just say I'm going to follow whatever my boss tells me to do, right. And so that's sort of what everybody seems to be doing at the moment. And I'm not going to think for myself, I'm just going to do what I'm told. So because we all have to operate as a bloc, because there's these powers and numbers gonna stop.
Kristen Cerelli:
45:21
Yeah. And that seems to take it back into our world and our podcasts. And what we hope to be highlighting that seems that kind of thinking. And acting from that place seems to be the enemy of change. Yeah, it
John Lyons:
45:35
actually prevents chain. So I think that's how the Senate is actually designed at the moment is, and in fact, if and when the Republicans take control over, it will guarantee that nothing happens, right, literally, nothing happens. And that will be the policy perspective. So yeah, I mean, this kind of intransigent, partisanship is an enemy of change. And collaborative, nonpartisan, working together towards the common interest of the people who live in this country, is how change can happen at that level. But regardless, they're all tools, right? We can decide what to do regardless of what those people are choosing to do. We each have agency in our own lives, and we don't need to get too sucked up into their posturing one way or the other, either side of the aisle. We don't have to get sucked into it, we can still go about our lives and live the lives that we believe are the right lives to live, and just not worry about it.
Kristen Cerelli:
46:39
Yeah. And I think I think Greg's story really gets its app that's at the heart of Greg's story
John Lyons:
46:47
that is at the heart of do the right thing, regardless, do the right thing regardless and don't be shouting about it. And don't be doing it because he thinks somebody wants you to do it. Right. Let's do it because you think it's the right thing. Yeah, I think that would probably be the essence of his story.
Kristen Cerelli:
47:03
Well, it's always great to talk to you I wish you a weekend free of Yak farting. I think I will be free. And I'll talk to you next time.
John Lyons:
47:15
It's good to talk to you take care.
Kristen Cerelli:
47:33
shift shift Blum is a co production of T comm studios and actually quite nice. engineered by Tim fall and hosted by me, Kristen Cerelli episodes are available wherever you download your podcasts and are made possible by listeners just like you please consider supporting our work by visiting us@patreon.com forward slash shift shift Blum.
Tim Fall:
48:01
Ship shift shift Bloom is made possible in part by the prayed Foundation, a nonprofit organization committed to improving the well being of all through the use of personalized timely interventions and provider of online training in the T comm tools T calm is transformational collaborative outcomes management, a comprehensive framework for improving the effectiveness of helping systems through Person Centered Care online at prayed foundation.org and AT T comma conversations.org. And by the Center for Innovation and Population Health at the University of Kentucky online@iph.uk y.edu
Every week on our regular episodes of shift shift Blum, I get to interview people whose lives are very different from mine. And we talk about how each has navigated the twists and turns inherent in transformation. But I wonder what's universal about how people change? What are the common threads, the connective tissue, I tend to look at change through the lens of my own experience, for the most part, the artists life. Lucky for us, my curiosity is shared by the CO creator of shift shift bloom. Dr. John Lyons, luminary and author in the field of clinical psychology and systems change, who better to help me unpack all the questions that fill my mind when the interviews are over. I'm Kristen Cerelli, and you're listening to shift shift bloom, T calm takeaways, my conversation with Dr. John Lyons about a recent interview.
Joining me in the teacup studio today is Dr. John Lyons. And we're going to talk about my interview with Dr. Greg Dyke. And, John, I know you have been waiting for this one. You really wanted this one to happen. We weren't sure if it was going to happen. And it did so. So let's jump right in. What What are your thoughts?
John Lyons 1:33
Yeah, so I'm quite happy that Greg agreed to to do the interview. I met him at the farmers market and Lexington and he was this guy of indeterminate age sitting at this tended table advertising yak jerky. And so me being me, I, I bought some yak jerky because it was different. And when you read it a little blurb, it's it's fairly cool, both in terms of being healthy and being more eco friendly. And when I was a kid, my siblings and I used to joke around and call each other like diseased Yaks and that kind of stuff. So. So the Yak has sort of a history for me as a as an amusing animal, although very huge. And they look prehistoric, actually. But anyway, so. So I started talking to him, because I'd go each week, and each week I advise him, yeah, jerky. And I just thought to myself, and right around the time we decided to do this podcast, I'm thinking to myself, This guy's got to have a story. I mean, you're a yak rancher. In Kentucky, there's got to be a story there. So
Kristen Cerelli 2:43
yeah, I didn't realize that you had sort of an ongoing relationship with Him. at the farmers market. I thought it was a one time meeting. That just got you kind of curious. But that that's funny. Now, let me stop.
John Lyons 2:58
He's not he's not a one time guy. Right? It's sort of like a process of warming up.
Kristen Cerelli 3:03
Yes. That's really that's reflective of my experience with him in the interview process too. And you can really also tell where he's starting to warm up at the end of the interview. And then when we get to talking about the yaks, his whole spirit really changes his whole tone of voice. So that was really interesting,
John Lyons 3:24
was actually one of my observations is actually your interview style changed a bit with his more engineering analytical style. So which I thought was fascinating. Oftentimes, with the other people, you've had sort of more of a softer kind of way of interviewing and with the with Greg, I think you and he both kind of went at it from a more directed sort of way, which I thought was just fascinating to listen to the how relationships are defined by the dyad. And not by each individual in that diet. I was interesting.
Kristen Cerelli 3:56
Yeah, he had a real different temperament I thought than some of the other guests. And so I don't think I made a conscious effort to change but he sort of had that irascible uncle, sort of personality to him. And so it was definitely a different different for me to where do you want to start? What,
John Lyons 4:18
what, like seven different I'm a little bit or a Christian because I've noticed as I listen to the tea calm takeaway is that each week, I'm adding more and more kind of things that I noticed we had five
Kristen Cerelli 4:30
last week. Now you've had a
John Lyons 4:34
little bit worried about what that means for the future. But anyway, so I will try and keep it focused. But there was there were seven things in particular that he said that I had a comment about, perhaps, and I'm not sure there's any order to them. I have them in the order in which he said them maybe useful so I can kind of begin to talk through those things, but he's clearly a smart guy. He thinks about what he does and that's that's a on Nice, cool aspect of who he is. So do you want me to just do it linearly, like the interview?
Kristen Cerelli 5:04
Let's do it unless I cut you off and jump one of your points. But yeah, let's do it in a linear way.
John Lyons 5:09
So I thought his point about social justice is first a way of thinking before it's a way of doing it was a really important point. And think about what that means in terms of helping people embrace social justice, that it's not performative. First, it's conceptual, and that we have to kind of help people begin to wrap their heads around that in a way that's inclusive in a way that's inviting to people who are not already singing in the choir. So I just thought that was an important point that the doing needs to be done first, within a context of thinking. And he kind of did that from a variety of different perspectives. So clearly, it was an issue that he believed in, you know, we're age cohorts. I was sitting there throughout the interview, wondering how old he was because I literally wouldn't meet him. You know, good luck guessing. Right.
Kristen Cerelli 6:03
He has a very youthful voice as well, you know, there's something very vigorous about his voice. Yeah. Yeah. So
John Lyons 6:09
I figured he was at least in his late 40s. And he couldn't be at but I had no idea. Right? So he's in my age cohorts. So you know, in that kind of the social movement generation was the start, man. So I thought he kind of captured and, and carried forward, it reminded me of the kinds of stuff that I was involved in, and so far, so that was sort of like nice to hear the, you know, boomers are now a label that are used to discriminate, right, so and, but there's a range of boomers. And there's a subset of people in that generation, like, Greg that are really good people really committed to the right thing. And I've helped set the stage for things that are happening now. I just don't think it's as important before people just use a label on anybody, let alone a generation realize that there's variability there.
Kristen Cerelli 7:05
Yeah. And it's a really big generation. So it's really not fair and not right to categorize everyone who's born between those years as one kind of person. I just wanted to jump in and say, that really jumped out at me too. I think I had to check my own preconceived notion a little bit at the door, because when you're dealing with someone who has a religious background, and he brought that, that framework of thinking about social justice into the conversation around seminary, I realized how I didn't expect those two things two go together, which is naive and ignorant and away on my part, but it's really more about my own feelings about the church, how much as soon as I hear church, I get my, my, you know, lapsed Catholic armor on and I don't think there can be anything good coming out of it, you know, and so that that was a good check in for me like, oh, yeah, you know, he went to the same seminary as Martin Luther King, Jr. and big social justice thinkers.
John Lyons 8:12
Yes. And so, I think, unfortunately, and I think a part of it is a reality and a part of it is a media portrayal. Religion gets presented and this fundamentalist kind of way and absolutely not, I don't even really mean fundamentalist, because that's actually a set of beliefs, but absolutist kind of way, you know, my way or the highway and, you know, the anti trans anti gay kind of stuff that gets the media attention, but it misses the vast majority of spiritual and religious people that are actually following the teachings of their there are particular religions, which invariably involve diversity, equity and inclusion, which are the buzzwords of today. But, you know, if you think about, What would Jesus do, I mean, he would be in the forefront of diversity, equity inclusion. And so I think it's an unfair portrayal of religion. Because just because you're a Christian, doesn't mean you're Christ like, and, you know, figuring out the distinction between the belief systems, and how some people practice them within that belief systems is a tricky thing for us to do. And again, these kind of broad brushstroke labels gets in the way of us understanding the nuances of those things. So I thought that I didn't he didn't strike me as religious at all actually struck me as thoughtfully spiritual. And the spirit being more like nature more like the Earth, more like a traditional cultural view of religion as opposed to other kind of the manufacture and ceremony. Do you have religion that we sometimes see? Great point? The second thing that I was struck by is the randomness of opportunity and convenience in our lives. Right. So he goes through any door, right, which is another point down the road, and maybe I can kind of combine them because I think they're related, you know that that philosophy, if you see an open door, or maybe you should go through it. I think that's a great philosophy. It's a frightening philosophy, I'm sure. Although it seems like he is sufficiently self confident, and yes, that he doesn't struggle with that. And he doesn't do second thoughts, particularly so, you know, no regrets. So, I think that, but the reality of the opportunity and convenience, you know, in terms of how that sort of directs the random walk that we all take through our lives,
Kristen Cerelli:
10:56
what do you mean by convenience? We know what randomness is. But in this case, what do you mean by convenience?
John Lyons:
11:03
Well, remember, he picked his seminary because it's the one within 100 miles the only one? That's convenience, right, it's, it's easier to do that and do something else. So that's what I mean, it's easier to do something that's in your neighborhood than it is to do something in somebody else's neighborhood. So convenience, definitely factors into our decision making. So but so does opportunity.
Kristen Cerelli:
11:28
Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder how many times we make really big decisions. And we lean towards convenience. Just because, logistically, when you start to factor in all of the other things that are inconvenient, you're probably apt to not go that way.
John Lyons:
11:48
Yeah, we may reframe it as the path of least resistance or some other kind of positive framing, because sometimes convenience is seen as a Slack ask kind of approach to living. But I think it's really fundamental, I suspect a lot of what we decide a lot of how we the pathways we choose, do have, have to do with convenience have to do with what's the easier path. You know, life is hard enough as it is without choosing to make it more difficult for yourself by making yourself inconvenient. Now, we really haven't actually talked to anybody who purposely inconvenience themselves for the experience of change, to make it harder. At least I haven't heard that. Yeah, I'm sure there are people that do that. I think I know some people who have done that. But, you know, those are the people who like to do the survivalist. They'd be on survivor, alone in the woods United at her an interview with a guy who won the loan contest, you know, he said, you know, you better be comfortable with yourself if you're going to be sitting in the wilderness by yourself for months, with nobody else there. Right. So there is that kind of person who likes to challenge themselves. But I think most of us we get enough challenge just by trying to keep our feet moving in front of us or beneath this.
Kristen Cerelli:
13:11
Yeah, and he points out this is related to what you're talking about that some opportunities random and or convenient, or both or neither. You also have to weigh who's going with you through that door. And so at some earlier points in his life, he had more responsibilities with growing children and a marriage and when he was divorced, it was just him so maybe you can even be a little bit more likely to take an inconvenient choice or make take a risk when there aren't other people counting on you.
John Lyons:
13:49
Or it redefines the nature of convenience right? It changes the parameters by which you judge convenient Yes. I mean, my career in part is defined by staying in Chicago after I did my graduate studies because it was convenient could have gone somewhere else. But I stayed and I actually looked to go someplace else but it was convenient at the time to choose to stay there
Kristen Cerelli:
14:14
well Tron as we know to moving is the ultimate and inconvenience I mean, having to pack up and get your shes somewhere else and unpack it when you get there. Unless you are a complete minimalist is one of the most hugely inconvenient things in life.
John Lyons:
14:38
Yes, that is we both know that from recent experience. You're more than me. What's number three? Okay, well, we already talked about that sort of cuz that's when the doors open and walk through it. So I think that's, you know, that taking opportunities when they present themselves, which is a combination of randomness and convenience. I think I'm privileged probably. So that's probably where we need to think through how do you create doors for people that don't see them and or don't actually have them conveniently identified for them. So I think that's important. But the spirit of that is just so, so cool so profoundly, I think important for our, you know, experiencing the adventure of living, you see an updated ticket. It's it's really about risk taking, I suppose, although he didn't really think a hit. And I'm wondering about this, what I was thinking about as listening to him, is he didn't seem to weigh his decision, like in risk benefit analysis, even though he is an analyst, he just was confident enough. That's funny, because he made that statement about this woman who is smarter than him, which whenever I hear somebody say that I know that they believe themselves to be pretty smart, right? Because if you're not smart in the first place, you're not going to be impressed by somebody who's smarter than you. Right? So you're not gonna say that as something impressive. So he's, he is smart, and he knows he's smart. And I think that gives him some confidence that is really, really powerfully important. And he owns his truth. I mean, he seems like he's extremely authentic and how he thinks about his living.
Kristen Cerelli:
16:29
Yeah, I would agree, his confidence really stands out to me. And that that does seem to play a role in maybe it doesn't even feel like a risk, when you have that much confidence, you know, you you it's confidence, and it's faith. I do find that now, I'm going to do the exact opposite of what I said we shouldn't do at the beginning, which is to say, I do find that Boomer men tend to be extremely confident, and self assured. And you know, they I think they backup their their decisions in their thoughts with research and knowledge. But I do find that to be a quality that seems to have permeated
John Lyons:
17:14
the generation. That's interesting. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know. I would, I would I would own that characteristic I have no one has ever accused me of not believing in myself, right? I do. Whatever. I do know, some of my colleagues. I know, actually, I think you might be on to something that's a part of gender expression, during that generation, because of the folks that I know that present themselves as less confident, are actually female. But they have the same skill sets as I do. But it's like they don't seem to feel like they have the permission to present themselves in this kind of confident way that somebody like art Tigris, Cynthia would present herself, right, which is the next generation after the boomers.
Kristen Cerelli:
18:08
Yeah. Well, that's interesting to think about what doors were not open for women at that time, even though it was the world was changing, and many doors were opening, but to it would be a different experience to be a man and a woman. And in that generation, as in all generations.
John Lyons:
18:26
Yeah, it opens that whole question of who decides that there's doors that are there and available and recognizing them? And when do you have to barge through them and push them open? And when are they fighting you through? Right? So those are all complicated kind of questions that are likely embedded in our concepts of privilege. And, but it's also random, you know, just literally random. So just like this happened, and there was this person I said, Nice to meet you. And sort of like the fact that Greg is a part of this podcast right on. It's random, but it was a door that presented itself. And, yes, I'm a little bit surprised he agreed to tell his story because he is a little bit more reserved. So I'm happy that he is because that's an important thing.
Kristen Cerelli:
19:15
Yeah, the first thing when I did the pre interview with him, we just talked on the phone for about 15 minutes. He said, Are you sure you want to interview me? You know, he did. He didn't really think what he would have to share would be, I don't know a value or exciting I think he doesn't really look back and think this is an exciting story. But I thought I convinced him otherwise.
John Lyons:
19:37
Well, actually, that brings up my next point. I'm not surprised he said that because he said something that made me very nostalgic. And I think this must be our, our generational podcast for generational concepts of change because he said do it but don't say anything about it. So that speaks to my generation that speaks to how I was raised as as you don't blow your own horn, right? You just simply don't, I can't tell you the number of times my mother said, Stop doing anything where you're bragging about yourself. You want other people to brag about you, and you brag about yourself. So, you know, that was always a little bit cocky, perhaps? I don't know. But yeah, so. So she was always on me about that issue, you know, do it. But don't say anything about it, wait for somebody else to recognize it. And now we see it our current world. It's not about doing it, it's about posting it before you do it on Facebook. And then once you do it, tweet it and get a picture of it and post that on Instagram. And it's created this culture where I worry that it's no longer about doing it. It's about saying that you're doing it, it's a performance art kind of way of living as opposed to actually doing it. And I think that's probably an unfair portrayal of the social media generation, because I suspect that a large number of people who just do it and don't say anything that actually were raised in ways that are very similar, but it does feel like sometimes that if you don't, if it doesn't appear on social media, it doesn't actually exist. And okay, but wow. I mean, that's, it changes the values, and you kind of see even how that has influenced our politics. You know, when Madison K, Catherine came to Congress, he didn't want to hire any policy. Staff, he only wanted to hire communication staff. Wow. So which means his view of legislating is communicating to his constituents, these are from whoever he's communicating to. Right. So that's a very different lens to think about leadership, that I'm gonna go to Congress and get some policy work done. I'm gonna go to Congress and communicate about this. Right. And so maybe that's good. Maybe that's not, but figuring out how to make it good, I think is probably going to be an important generational challenge.
Kristen Cerelli:
22:02
Yeah, I think I think the social media aspect of everything has, has benefits, and also has complicated things, in many ways. And I'm thinking about even even your remark about your mom saying, you know, piped down, let other people do the praising it's, that is very different. You know, in the late boomer parents and Gen X parents, they are tooting the horns of their children relentlessly. Online. And, you know, to the point where you kind of sometimes want to say, give it a rest, take a day off.
John Lyons:
22:45
Yeah, that my parents would not be doing that. Although, later in life, you know, my mother would write me letters, Dr. John, cheese, you're the only person that comes.
Kristen Cerelli:
22:55
That's very sweet. Well, I noticed though, that Greg, and I didn't ask in fairness, I didn't ask a lot of questions. But Greg hardly talked about his children. You know, he didn't really he kept the conversation to his professional achievements and his the beliefs that were guiding those changes in his professional life,
John Lyons:
23:20
which I think makes a lot of sense, because they're not on the podcast, right? They can't explain themselves, right. So, you know, it's fair to not pull them into the whole store.
Kristen Cerelli:
23:32
Tell me what number we're at and what and what,
John Lyons:
23:36
we're ready for five, which I think is something that actually, almost everybody has said, but in different ways, okay. And that is knowing what's important to you, as a really important piece of change is that you're not really going to change in any way unless you view it as important to you. And if you don't really know, or you can't articulate what is important to you, then you really can't, therefore change effectively, because you don't know that what you're doing is important to you, so that, you know knowing yourself and knowing what's important to you seems to me like a universal precursor of change that everybody we've talked to has had, in some ways talked about that, you know, mission, vision, philosophy, values, whatever labels that they might put on. It involves knowing who their what their heart is, knowing who they are knowing what they want in their life, as being an important part of deciding what to do next.
Kristen Cerelli:
24:44
Yeah, I don't know if we give people I want to say kids, but you know, kids, teens, young adults, I don't know if we give people time or or education in discerning their values, maybe if you maybe if you go to a religious based school, if you have a religious based education, you talk about values maybe from that perspective from that lens. But I'm thinking like in my public school education, sure, what subjects do you like? Sure what, you know, what are you thinking about doing with your life, but not a lot of unpacking of what do you value? What's important to you. And I think we only come to those crossroads in life when something is dissonant. And we have to then figure out why it's dissonant. And it usually leads to that conversation about maybe you're living in a way that's out of alignment with your values. And at that moment, you think, well, what are even my values? I know what my family values, I know what my culture values, but do I know what I as an individual really value? And I imagine that's getting harder for younger people to discern, also, because there's so much ingesting of cultural
John Lyons:
26:00
values. Yes, and we have a bad habit of telling everybody what their values are supposed to be. Right? I mean, that's kind of what almost everybody does, actually, is we tell people these are, these are my values, therefore, they need to be yours. Right. So there's that kind of built in sort of indoctrination of who you are, who you should be, depending on, but it varies by context, you know, by culture, by religion, by community. But it's all pretty much the same that you do get sort of indoctrinated into what you're supposed to. But I think, when you listen to actually all of our people who talk, they're always talking about how they adjusted, who they were, who they thought they were, what was important to them, in their own journey, independent to some extent of their, what they were told, you know, what they were first taught to, that they should believe in. So I think, regardless of how much time we spend indoctrinating people into their values, they're gonna have their own journey, and they're gonna decide for themselves, who they are. And I agree with you that we don't spend enough time helping young people figure that out on their own, because they have to figure it out on their own, they can't just read a book, or they can't just been told, this is what you should be, this is who you should be, they have to figure that out on their own, and they need to be able to articulate
Kristen Cerelli:
27:31
it. Yeah. And I think as you're talking, I'm thinking about Greg's story and what we call what you've given us the framework about randomness and convenience. And he's he kept feeding in that metaphor about walking through the open door, but I think, not to be too metaphysical on you. But this idea that his vibration was really strong about what he wanted to do, really, from what place he wanted to operate in life. And so I think he met doors opening in those domains, because he was really he he had assuredness about those values. And so he kept meeting opportunities to play out his participation in those values, and then being able to make changes based on those values. Whereas if you're wishy washy, and you don't know, and you haven't given it any thought, you're, you're probably not going to meet up with anything, particularly you know, that sets you on fire, because you're not on fire about anything, or you don't know what it is that you're on fire about,
John Lyons:
28:40
right? And that's the people who can't really decide what they want to do with their life. Right. So it's always better, Kristen, for you to get metaphysical on medieval Omni, so that's fine. It's okay to get metaphysical. So he's got, I've met him in person, of course, several times. And he has a vibe that he does. I mean, I'm not, I don't really talk in those terms, typically. But he does have this energy that you can feel when you meet him, right? So you could call it charisma. You could call it a vibe, you could call it energy. I don't know why, but it's real. I mean, you can feel it with him. And so that's what sort of, I think, attracted me to talk to him. It's like, Oh, this guy has something about him. That's interesting, that kind of draws you in. And I suspect that is a part of his secret, you know, superpowers, right, that it's he has that. And I suspect when he's working in New Orleans, that was invaluable. And when he's working in any era, and he's working, you know, and when he went to India, and when he even when he was an engineer, that that that kind of positive, energy, vibration, whatever is really important, powerful and useful.
Kristen Cerelli:
29:55
Yeah, you can even get it over a phone call. So He it might be generational. We didn't see each other on the computer screen as you and I are seeing now because we there were some technical difficulties and and so both times we just met with an oral an audio connection and it still comes across and is perhaps sort of the reason why my feedback loop with him my my way of dealing with him was different because he was different. He he's got a different energy, I think you I think you're right on it when you say energy than some of the other folks not better, just different.
John Lyons:
30:32
Just different. Yeah, yeah. Sort of sort of, like the difference between a high intensity electric wire versus something else. And like, there's something about him that has that kind of vibrating tension to that energy that's like, wow,
Kristen Cerelli:
30:51
yeah. And it's, it's really strong, you can't not feel it. It's just it's the strength of that, that current, you're like, You got to get on it, you get on his current with him in a way. Alright, so
John Lyons:
31:03
the next point, is his comment about workaholism. workaholics, which I think is another label that is problematic. Now that's sort of gone away that's generational. And I will admit to being labeled more than once in my career, my life as a workaholic. The language has evolved. So typically, it's more recently, you know, life work balance. I like the concept of life work harmony, which I think that's a more meaningful, I think, workaholic and life work balance is created to, I think it's resulting to trying to shame people who like to work and get their meaning from their work and saying you shouldn't do it, you know, your union busting, you're working too much. And I'm not working that hard. And you're getting meaning from your work. And I don't get meaning from my work. So I want you to take yoga classes instead, or learn to play the cello or whatever, which I call BS. So I think people should do what they like to do. And if people like to do work, and that's what gives them meaning in their lives, then, who are we to tell them that that's somehow a pathology? So I was, I think, if we had pulled that thread, he would have landed on the same place, because he kind of said, well, I'm not a workaholic. So but I liked the work, I've been say spends probably a lot of time working. So what is a workaholic, it's trying to make work into an addiction that has to be treated with detox and other kinds of stuff. And I think that's a really, really, really sad way of representing what most of us spend a significant amount of time in our lives doing. And if your work doesn't make you happy, it's not fundamentally your works fault. You need to find work, that actually makes you happy. Because if you're not getting meaning from what you're doing, then you need what lifework balance so you can find meaning outside what you're doing. But if you're getting your meaning from what you're doing, what's the what's the issue, you know,
Kristen Cerelli:
33:17
this is a big topic. This one hits me because I, I would say I don't call myself a workaholic. But I'm, I'm struggling to work.
John Lyons:
33:25
Yeah. Because it's what gives you meaning rather short gives you pleasure. Right? So and so what's what's, why does that have to be framed as some sort of, Well, originally as a, like a psychiatric disorder, and then more recently, as like a failure to achieve the ying and yang of life or some such thing? Yeah, lifework harmony, as long as everything's harmonious in your life, because that, to me seems like the concept that works well. And it's not judgmental, it's not pejorative to people who find their meaning from their profession. Yeah. And then the last point, the last thing that stuck out to me, in some ways might be the most important, particularly for our heart, likely listeners. And that's the power of helping. So he made a point about that. And he actually talked about it from a couple of different perspectives. But I think that point is really profoundly important. And this is particularly important. When you have people who have challenges in their life, and they spend their lives being helped, and they're not given any opportunity to help others. And that's a life sentence to meaninglessness. To be a recipient of health, help your entire life prevents you from experiencing the power of helping others. And so for instance, in our adult version of our mental health tools, we have As strength called volunteering, because the way we've set things up for people with serious mental illness, is they get a disability check. And then it becomes very, very hard to get off disability. Because if you get off disability, you're probably not making enough money to make ends meet. And so you're better off agreeing to live a life of poverty and disability than take the chance of shifting to the workforce where it's a little bit more iffy, and nothing is promised. But so you sit around, you're actually paid a small amount of money to do nothing. So you miss that part of the meaning of life. And if you don't have other ways of finding meaning, then that's just tragic. And so how you do you help people if they can't work, because they can't get paid, they can still volunteer, they can give back because it's in the Giving back is often just like teaching is more powerful than taking teaching a class, you learn way more than taking a class, helping others, you actually get more out of than being helped. And if we deny some people from the opportunity to help others, that's just denying them a significant source of power and meaning in their lives. So I was struck by that, and it hits home for me. And one of the things that we tried to do within the tea calm space, which is turn the tables and people who have challenges are not commodities have the system that we just have to pour services on their people. And they're people with aspirations. And they're people with strengths. And they're people who can have meaningful lives. And we need to figure out ways to help them find their meaning and achieve that. And so I was really struck by that particular observation that Greg made, because I think it is profoundly important for our work.
Kristen Cerelli:
36:56
Yeah, he kind of his offerings on that topic, whether it was bringing up the concept of downward mobility, or just talking about different service projects got me really set off on reading and researching. And it was really compelling, to go follow those trails that he had sort of sprinkled out and just see sort of how what you're talking about, too, is is an ancient truth, that helping is hugely meaningful in our lives. And everyone should have the opportunity to offer what they have to someone.
John Lyons:
37:37
So and I think figuring out how to make that work, is a challenge in our current system structure. But it's not a it's not an impossible challenge. I mean, we it's interesting to me, because we have so in public. So most of our work is in either public behavioral health or in child welfare, or in the justice system, or so far. So we have a large number of people, I mean, literally 10s of millions of people that have decided, as a career choice to take career paths in which they're never really going to get paid anything remotely close to people who take a path down the business, the dare I say, the more capitalistic kind of part of our economy. And there's a major split my experience, and now that I'm old, I have lots of friends that took one path or the other. I have friends who took either path. A friend of mine who took the path to help at the sacrifice of money are far richer in their hearts today than those who have a boatload of money. So now my friend with a boatload of money are looking to give it away so that they can help. Right. Okay, that's fair. So maybe that's the cycle of how this all is designed to work.
Kristen Cerelli:
39:02
I gotta ask, how was the Yak jerky?
John Lyons:
39:07
Yeah, jerky is delicious. I love it. I love like yak jerky. I was sad when when the farmers market closed for the winter. So and he only he only slaughters a certain number of yaks. So you have to get it while it's there. But it's it's much much leaner. So the other thing that he didn't talk about, so you spent no time which is probably a good thing. So I'm going to break that. Sadly, you spoke note and you didn't speak about yak farting. Yak farting is important because that's why yaks are more eco friendly than cattle because there's less methane that are released from the Yak than there is from cattle. Yeah, so yak farting is actually the reason why yak ranching might actually be better for the environment. But the meat I mean, it tastes a lot like beef. Yeah, it's leaner. It's leaner, but it's quite tasty. Now I didn't like bite into the side of the Yaks. I didn't have yak sushi, you know, or something like that. So I don't really know exactly how it was, you know, prepared, it was prepared. I think I had the regular and the teriyaki. So, teriyaki yak tastes like teriyaki. Alright, so, so, but the meat itself is is pretty, pretty flavorful. And it's very lean if you don't get that same kind of taste of fat, so I would recommend it. So I buy my my grip teases me endlessly about the act jerky because I would bring it and I'd give it away but they all are now looking together at once it comes back this see this season,
Kristen Cerelli:
40:46
he started a trend now I think what we should do is have a field trip so we can have a supplementary video for this episode that we need to get to zebra Shanga. Yeah, Grant,
John Lyons:
40:59
I want to see you up next to a yak. I bet you do kinda tiny
Kristen Cerelli:
41:04
listeners. That's huge. They are enormous. They look enormous. So
John Lyons:
41:11
I would not even come up to their leg. I mean, you may not come up to their I mean, I don't know I haven't I haven't seen one in person, but they are really big animals.
Kristen Cerelli:
41:20
I guess we'll have to we'll have to go. We'll have to plan a trip and
John Lyons:
41:24
video, I talked to Greg and he said I could come any time. Because I told him I might bring a UK contingent out. So
Kristen Cerelli:
41:31
okay, and a camera crew. I'm just thinking, you know, we could we could wrap up right now. But there's something that sort of floating in the air with me, which is that,
John Lyons:
41:40
hopefully not a yak fart.
Kristen Cerelli:
41:44
To say it would be it would be a dog fart around here. Studio dog is not present right now. But it seems significant to me. And this will air very soon soon enough that this episode, which really speaks a lot into walking through doors and doors being open it this episode is happening as we've finally gotten the first black woman on the Supreme Court. And so I just wonder if you have any thoughts about that parting thoughts?
John Lyons:
42:23
I think that's a wonderful and way overdue breakthrough. And Judge Jackson seems like the perfect choice to be the person to crash that glass ceiling. It's tragic to me that there's so much partisan resistance to this, but that seems so what this all is our sad political state of affairs has become of posturing and creating quite literally a black and white society. It's either you're either this group, or you're that group. And if you're, it reminds me of the Dr. Seuss books, frankly, you know, the star on the belly or not kind of nonsense, right? And it's like, what I mean, don't we have some commonality? Don't we have things in common? Don't we have some shared? Values? Aren't we all like maybe Americans? But it's gotten so ridiculous that, you know, No, I disagree with somebody. So therefore, I'm not actually an American, I'm a something else right or, or your internet because you have these belief systems. And so we've stopped kind of talking to each other and stop kind of understanding each other. And we just get into this virtue signaling on both sides, right, the different virtues, but the same kind of virtue signaling constantly going on. That doesn't involve any real dialogue. And I just think, you know, the more we can figure out how we can recognize those things we have in common, and stop making absolutely every freaking thing about me or you my side, your side, you know, I've got a star in my belly. You don't? I think we'll be in a better place. But I'm not optimistic for anytime soon to get to that place, because it always blows me away the number of people who prefer to have this stance of I'm right, and you're wrong. What do you think? So
Kristen Cerelli:
44:27
I think I think part of it comes back to this idea that we ingest a lot of information and we like to stick our stake in the ground about things when we haven't really reflected on our own individual values and really unpacked issues from that point of view. And I think that's what those three Republican senators may have done is actually thought about their own values and the values of their constituents and see that they don't, they're not out of alignment with this nominee, you know, this person? Yep.
John Lyons:
45:03
I think you're right. I mean, because it is almost brain dead to just say I'm going to follow whatever my boss tells me to do, right. And so that's sort of what everybody seems to be doing at the moment. And I'm not going to think for myself, I'm just going to do what I'm told. So because we all have to operate as a bloc, because there's these powers and numbers gonna stop.
Kristen Cerelli:
45:21
Yeah. And that seems to take it back into our world and our podcasts. And what we hope to be highlighting that seems that kind of thinking. And acting from that place seems to be the enemy of change. Yeah, it
John Lyons:
45:35
actually prevents chain. So I think that's how the Senate is actually designed at the moment is, and in fact, if and when the Republicans take control over, it will guarantee that nothing happens, right, literally, nothing happens. And that will be the policy perspective. So yeah, I mean, this kind of intransigent, partisanship is an enemy of change. And collaborative, nonpartisan, working together towards the common interest of the people who live in this country, is how change can happen at that level. But regardless, they're all tools, right? We can decide what to do regardless of what those people are choosing to do. We each have agency in our own lives, and we don't need to get too sucked up into their posturing one way or the other, either side of the aisle. We don't have to get sucked into it, we can still go about our lives and live the lives that we believe are the right lives to live, and just not worry about it.
Kristen Cerelli:
46:39
Yeah. And I think I think Greg's story really gets its app that's at the heart of Greg's story
John Lyons:
46:47
that is at the heart of do the right thing, regardless, do the right thing regardless and don't be shouting about it. And don't be doing it because he thinks somebody wants you to do it. Right. Let's do it because you think it's the right thing. Yeah, I think that would probably be the essence of his story.
Kristen Cerelli:
47:03
Well, it's always great to talk to you I wish you a weekend free of Yak farting. I think I will be free. And I'll talk to you next time.
John Lyons:
47:15
It's good to talk to you take care.
Kristen Cerelli:
47:33
shift shift Blum is a co production of T comm studios and actually quite nice. engineered by Tim fall and hosted by me, Kristen Cerelli episodes are available wherever you download your podcasts and are made possible by listeners just like you please consider supporting our work by visiting us@patreon.com forward slash shift shift Blum.
Tim Fall:
48:01
Ship shift shift Bloom is made possible in part by the prayed Foundation, a nonprofit organization committed to improving the well being of all through the use of personalized timely interventions and provider of online training in the T comm tools T calm is transformational collaborative outcomes management, a comprehensive framework for improving the effectiveness of helping systems through Person Centered Care online at prayed foundation.org and AT T comma conversations.org. And by the Center for Innovation and Population Health at the University of Kentucky online@iph.uk y.edu
