WEBVTT
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I have to be honest, I found it extremely difficult to write a brief biography for Mark Hutchinson.
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At the moment, he's pro-vice-chancellor research performance at Adelaide University, and a member of the Prime Minister's National Science and Technology Council and Australian Economic Accelerator Board, also the leader of the Neuroimmunopharmacology Lab in the School of Pharmacy and Biomedical Science, and also chair of the Safeguarding Australia through Biotechnology Response and Engagement Alliance and the Australian Pain Solutions Research Alliance.
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In the past, he's been president of Science and Technology Australia and director of the ARC Centre for Nanoscale Biophotonics.
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Of course, that's not anywhere near all the leadership roles he's held, and I haven't included any of the multiple awards and nominations he's received as well.
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It's astounding.
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Mark is a stellar and experienced leader who knows intimately what it's like to work at the coalface as a researcher.
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He's a scientist at heart, but he's deeply aware of the importance of bringing humanities, arts, and social sciences into the tent as well to have a true impact in the world.
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In his pain research, he makes sure he and his people center the lived experience of real humans in pain.
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This is not theoretical work for Mark.
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He's driven to make sure this work makes a difference.
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Something I found particularly enjoyable in this conversation was the way it was peppered with quotable quotes.
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Here are two that I really liked.
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First, that he's driven to see research that has, quote, impact beyond the bookshelf.
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That's quite nifty.
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Second, the importance of balancing specific goals while still allowing opportunities for spontaneous, unintentional discovery.
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Or as he puts it, by building environments that foster, quote, curated serendipity and engineered hope.
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I love that phrase.
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Curated serendipity and engineered hope.
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Mark was also open about how he cultivates imposter syndrome, basically to ensure he stays humble.
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This is a real danger when you have a CV like his that sparkles like a Christmas tree.
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He also confessed that he's been regularly described as having the enthusiasm of Tigger, powerful, inspirational energy, with the added, we'll call it benefit of being willing to break stuff.
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I'm Rod Lambert, a veteran science communicator with nearly 30 years of teaching, learning, and doing SICOM under my belt.
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My chat with Mark coming up next on this season finale episode of Science with Benefits, STEM sector insights from the people who know.
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Mark Hutchinson, thank you hugely for joining me.
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I'm so keen to talk to you.
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I haven't talked to you for I don't know how many years now.
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The formal term is yonks, mate.
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Uh it's been a while.
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Yeah, yonks.
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More than one yonk.
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Yeah.
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And uh you have now become the Pro-Vice Chancellor of Research Performance at the University of Adelaide.
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At Adelaide University.
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Adelaide, the the newest top 100 university in the world.
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Congratulations.
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That's all down to you.
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No.
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It's we're we're the oldest new university.
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How's that?
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Well, you're you're um you've you've taken two and made one beautiful hybrid, haven't you?
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Correct.
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Yes.
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It's been um uh an extraordinary ride, and we are now living out the the mandate that the state government, it's very rarely that you have the state government say, we believe in you, go, go, go, um, and create something brand new that's uh hopefully the greater than the sum of its parts.
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Uh look, from what I hear, it's already happening.
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And I've I've spoken to your colleague as we discussed already, and he seems to be well and truly convinced it's going well, in in a humble way, I might add.
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Mark Wall, very humble about his achievements.
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It was hard to get him to boast.
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In fact, I don't think I succeeded.
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I'll see if I can get you to boast.
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How about that?
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Well, let's start with then.
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How did you find yourself in this chair now?
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Because you've had some very impressive positions in the past.
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How'd you end up in this one?
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Um I I don't think I've planned any of this, Rob.
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Um so I in all honesty, uh where I'm where I'm coming to this seat of Private Chancellor Research Performance is as a research active um science leader who is aware of um government policy, industry needs, uh, and knows what it's like to work both at the um coal face as a researcher at the bench through to then trying to do something with it.
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So um that's that's where I'm coming to this from.
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Um, really keen to be leading uh the endeavors of the university in in research excellence, but then also in achieving ensuring that we achieve uh the performance that society uh are expecting of universities today to deliver, which includes both nature and science-worthy science discoveries, research discoveries broadly across, and I've got to remember, always remember Mark, it's not about STEM only now.
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It's also about the humanities and arts and social sciences as well.
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But then, you know, making sure we have that impact.
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And that's what I'm now trying to champion for the next little while here in this seat.
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Oh, well, there's a there's a few things I want to ask you off the back of that then.
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I I think the that, remember it's not STEM only.
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I understand that very well coming from my own background, but um how are you finding that?
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Because there's there's no question in my mind the the support, the interaction or the mutual support of different disciplines, often quite disparate ones, super critical and extremely fruitful.
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But how are you finding that?
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Because that's not necessarily your your natural place.
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Well, it's not, but uh, I guess I'm a I'm a scientist at heart and I've created a career in science, but and I and I say a beat but here, I have always attempted to work across uh disciplines, both within science and more broadly.
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And so um I I think that we often um uh create these um artificial barriers in in terms of who we talk to because of perhaps the building we're in.
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And actually what we need to be considering is that you put the best foot forward.
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And if you're telling your science story to a broad uh audience, it may not be the person in the white lab coat who is the best person to tell that story to that all of all aspects of that broad audience.
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And vice versa, there are elements of measurement, um, technology, and um use of science that have a multitude of indications, including into the um humanities, arts and social sciences.
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So, yeah, and we did we even did some of that back in the day, just in a building, just behind me here, where we took new photonic glass and made it into, well we didn't make it, the art glass artists made it into new um fluorescent, luminescent glass art because we identified new ways to use scientific tools in in the art uh arts domain.
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Excellent.
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Well, look, I obviously I fully applaud that as a SICOM guy, because my background is quite I was gonna say diverse, but that sounds too lofty.
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I'll say mixed up and confused, you know, many different backgrounds.
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And and the I'm heartened to see the extent to which we'll call the old term of hard sciences are now embracing the necessity and and the utility of of the social sciences, the arts, the humanities, and so forth.
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I think it's um it's superb.
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And I love that it's not just lip service.
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It's not just sort of good on you, fellas, we'll bring you with us.
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Thank God.
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Oh, no.
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I mean, we've got to do it to uh yeah, hand in glove the entire way.
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And and in a in a large, internationally um renowned institution that has breadth in its research, we would be stupid not to harness the true excellence that comes from multiple domains, independent of the college name that's on a building, um, or dare I say, the building that we we find ourselves occupying.
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So what do you think then?
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Do you I know there has traditionally, and I'll say traditionally because it's been my own experience of decades past, a certain resistance, um, particularly from hardcore technical experts, to accept that sort of softer, more social um mechanisms and tools for for doing their work, communicating their work, etc.
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Do you see much of that anymore?
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I'm not asking to dob in people, but I'm just curious to see if you see much of that or what if you do, what sort of shape it takes.
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So I I I don't uh see it uh being uh viscerally objected to at the moment.
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Um I think I think there's always going to be a debate around the the visceral response I have when it comes to um communication of complex concepts is this um uh assumption that we need to dumb it down.
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It's like hell no, no.
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I mean there's a there's a simple um uh need, but the simplicity is actually the need to create the communic communication in a clear and precise fashion, which is generally accessible.
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That does not necessitate simplification.
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Uh and so I I think that's where we need to have um uh sort of a broader appreciation for the complexity of what our colleagues um actually grasp um outside of our disciplines, what general society are actually grappling with in the complexity of what they're used to and making what we do real.
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Now, does that mean that we lead with Maxwell's equation when we're telling our story?
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Please no, please, please no.
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Um, but is there a better way to tell our stories?
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Yes.
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Uh and so I think that's sort of the the journey I I'm seeing many people going on.
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Uh and if I look at you know my own research in pain, um I've just spent the morning um introducing one of my new PhD students to uh people, pain consumers, people who have lived experience of pain.
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So that Claire, in the first weeks of her PhD, is not in an ivory tower, is actually speaking to the people who will be participating in her future research program, and crucially, hopefully will benefit because of the discoveries, foundational discoveries that she makes in her research.
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But she needs to know who these people are and know that these are real humans out there.
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And they also then know that this amazing new research is occurring.
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So those, I think, are things that uh I'm seeing now happening today that you know, 10 years ago we weren't, we weren't doing um rigorously in engagement early in these research programs.
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Is that to the demise of our past research endeavors?
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Most likely.
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Um, but you know, we are now um at the forefront of that co-creation, co-design uh approach today to ensure that what we do is meaningful to people out there in the real world.
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Um, and crucially, that the real world understands what we're doing today.
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Well, yeah, I'm I'm glad you mentioned pain, because I had I had on my notes to ask you about this.
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I can't think of a more deeply personal thing to be measuring or or researching than pain, really.
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I mean, of course there are other things, but pain is super personal, extremely individually experienced, I would imagine.
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And I remember reading in your bio because I hadn't read your bio for quite some time.
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The um objective measurement of pain.
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You've worked on and come up with objective measurements of pain.
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Is that fair to say?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it actually the very last experiment I did in my PhD was the first identification that there was a change in the blood and specifically the immune cells in the blood that was proportional to the amount of pain that someone could experience.
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So that's that is now, gosh, uh 22 years ago that we did those work.
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And so for the last two decades, I've been doing further refinement and analysis of that work that has now allowed us to um create um rapid um quantification of pain from blood.
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We actually now understand elements, only elements of why that occurs.
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And and to that personalizing of the experience.
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Two years ago, I had an innocuous back injury, which resulted in me being at the emergency department and not getting um, well, not being believed that I wasn't a drug-seeking, um, drug diverting addict until um, fortunately uh for me, um some some of the clinical staff who I ended up having taught recognized me, like, what are you doing here?
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Um so yeah, I I now know, and and crucially, so many people out there will go, that's my story.
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These people didn't believe that I had pain or didn't understand the pain that I have.
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So, yeah, going that full cycle of um researching pain, understanding pain, being a world expert in in pain measurement to not being able to communicate effectively my own pain experience to those who were caring for me.
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Yeah, look, I mean, it doesn't matter how clever we are, the human experience always wins, right?
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And I and I'm not surprised.
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No, well, I am surprised.
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I mean, I used to work in environments where let's just say I knew what a junkie looked like, your picture would not be on the wall.
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I would not look at you and say, hmm, this guy.
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The fascinating thing though is that and I and I I I do have sympathy for um the clinical staff in this case because we don't have the tools that allow us to see in some inside someone's pain experience.
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We still literally ask someone on a scale of one to ten, how much pain are you in?
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And for my presentation, as with many other people's presentations with pain, it was an innocuous injury.
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It wasn't, you know, I didn't have an arm hanging off by you know the tendons.
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I wasn't, I didn't have an obvious injury.
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Um, and the absence of that um injury to proportional to the amount of um excruciating pain I was in, and many other people are in, is this disconnect.
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I don't see it, so therefore I can't quite quantify it.
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Um, that's the complexity in the pain space, which is why we need to be doing more work in these foundational discovery elements combined with rapid translation so we can actually have the impact that we need.
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So I assume then pain is, I mean, everyone's had some, more or less.
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I assume, therefore, that you must get a lot of, let's call it, uh, heartfelt advice from people.
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I'm sure everyone has an opinion on pain and what's real and what's not, and how much is okay, what to do about it, etc.
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I I imagine in your realm that would be uh we'll call it both a boon and a bane, huh?
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Well, so it crucially uh pain is both uh a a biological nature, but also a psychosocial construct.
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So our best understanding of pain today is the biopsychosocial construct.
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Now, if we're truly to um live that out, it means that our understanding of pain needs to go from the nanoscale molecular interactions right through to appreciating that things outside of my skin layer are going to influence how I experience pain.
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Yeah.
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That's kind of complicated.
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Um and so and so that's that's the the challenges that we have in the pain field.
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I mean, the pain field only revised and updated its most recent um definitions of pain um just a couple of years ago, where we now formally accept that it is both um uh an appreciation of pain as an experience as well as an anticipated experience of potential tissue damage, but it doesn't have to be proportional to tissue damage.
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And then crucially, for us, we're talking to each other.
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Fine, we can talk about pain, we can express the different, the nuance, the complexity of pain.
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But just because you don't have language doesn't now, based on the definition, doesn't mean that your biology is not experiencing that pain.
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So that means children who don't have language yet are experiencing pain, even though they can't necessarily tell us or even communicate it.
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Someone who's unconscious can still be experiencing pain.
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And then crucially, um, right through to aged people who have lost that uh ability to talk.
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And then animals, the other kingdom, um, all experience pain.
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And so clearly, measurement kind of is important if we want to then intervene in that.
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Oh, yeah.
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Look, I'd I'd like to just talk about this for two hours.
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But we won't, because there are other things I need to touch on, and I don't want to keep you from your important duties.
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Um thinking a bit back to well, actually, no, I will I will pivot slightly through this.
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The misinformation, disinformation side of things in your field, before we go back to your larger portfolio again, do you see key misinformation, disinformation effects?
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Are there are there common stories about pain, its treatment, etc., or the personalities of people who are in pain?
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Because I'm sure there's a lot of that kind of thing going on.
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Anything that stands out for you or is more frequent?
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So I think uh of the um worlds of medical domains that um we have literally gone to war over, pain is probably the only one, and that is because of our history of use of drugs associated with pain, specifically the opioids.
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Um and so there are the opioid um wars of old through to the opioid pandemics uh of today, um, which have resulted in um more people dying from a medicine than you know has been associated with car accidents and the like.
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So we we we're dealing with um hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been cut short because of a medicine which was initially um indicated for pain management, uh, and various marketing has occurred over time by various companies who have then not gone on to be um litigated against because of practices associated with um uh a disconnect between the evidence base for quality clinical use and then the marketing practices and use and sales that were associated with it.
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Now, that's a massive thing that we're still really only just coming out the back of globally.
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And that has resulted, unfortunately, in people who usually would have got access to medicines like me, rocking up to the emergency department, not getting access to medicines that they needed for the presentation of pain that they were in.
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And so that's now this ball is uh not knee-jerk, appropriate response, but a constraining of the um access to medicines that would otherwise be useful.
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Um that that is a massive challenge.
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But then I think there's the other side where we go from the um perception that there are things out there, that there are magic new treatments that have been hidden from us.
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And unfortunately, this seems to be on a um regular um 6:30 to 7 o'clock at night, once every month, brand new breakthrough in pain treatment.
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And it involves you spending roughly$50 to$100 a month to a subscription to gain access to this brand new device or intervention that's previously been hidden from you.
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Um my goodness.
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If if we had, yeah, we we need to spend more time creating the evidence base to test um the use of novel interventional treatments for the management of pain to actually create the evidence base to justify most of these claims.
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Um and I think that's this this rush.
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Now, why did it why is it okay that these things keep coming up and going out into the general community?
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Um uh because we can't measure pain.
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So that means there's a lot of people in pain.
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Um, so there's a lot of demand from a simple let's chase the dollars side of the industry.
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So let's just throw a solution in there and hope that we grab some of that market of people who are in pain.
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Um, which means that a lot of people feel who who live with chronic pain feel uh quite rightly disheartened and create distrust in um repeated failings of these interventions because a bunch of them are absolute rubbish.
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Um, there's some potential nuggets in there, but crucially, when we talk about pain, it's not.
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This one massive sane bucket.
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We're dealing with very, very bespoke, defined approaches.
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Just like cancer.
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Cancer, you don't just go and get one treatment for the all of cancer.
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You have defined precision medicine for each type of cancer.
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We don't do that yet with pain.
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So misinformation abounds.
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I can imagine.
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I mean, maybe we're in a world where, like with cancer, we need a better term that isn't just one big bucket.
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Maybe there isn't just pain.
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Maybe we need subpains or things don't have the word pain in them at all.
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Well, so yes, then there's these words uh no susception, no susceptible pain, um, neuropathic pain, no supplastic pain.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:50.720
Um, and and then um this this then creates this massive debate as to which of these buckets does the pain fall into.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:23:00.640
Um that helps us scientifically uh explore what the origins might be, which really you know, we we don't want to just admire the problem.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.599
We then have to match the treatments or the potential beneficial remedies to a defined type.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.519
Now, I think that's the challenge.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:22.640
We still are struggling to actually place um a complex pain state and place match people to the best, most likely bucket, which then allows them to then get the best treatment options.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:31.519
Those are the the challenges that we're facing right now, and a bunch of the work that we're actually undertaking right now is allowing us to delineate those different types of pain.
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.240
But yeah, we've got work to do.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:36.799
I have no doubt.
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:44.880
Speaking of that, then um you said up top that you are both a practicing as well as a I'm paraphrasing an administrative person.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:52.400
How much time do you actually get to spend on your research side of the world versus your uh research performance oversight?
00:23:53.039 --> 00:24:05.839
So so as of today, um I moved from running my lab in 2013 to running research programs.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:25.440
So it's just on 13 years now that I've been balancing that um lab-based role, which means my team of brilliant postdocs, um, professional staff and students are absolutely spectacular at knowing that Mark is not the rate limiting step for the science.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:32.640
That does not mean that I don't then still get to go into the lab and still do some of the surgery and still actually am at the bench.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.839
Um, but I don't get to do that um as much as I used to.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:46.960
But that's probably a good thing because you know these the the kids that are coming through today, oh my goodness, they are so much better than me.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:53.039
Uh, and they are the ones that should be doing all the thinking and and the uh and the work at the bench.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880
Um I do get to spend some time um digesting science, but I do it in really different ways than I used to.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.240
I mean, I was I was reminiscing just the other day with one of my postdocs.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:10.480
We used to talk about going to the library to get the photocopy card to then go and get the journals to then read them.
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:19.119
Um now I get you know hundreds of papers downloaded, you know, at a at a whim, um, more than I can digest.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:30.880
Um but now we've got a range of different tools that allow us to get the synthesis of those outcomes from those papers to then allow us to jump in in a really targeted fashion to digest that.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:39.759
So I I do get some time, um, not as much as I used to, but that's probably a good thing given the kids that are in the lab actually doing the work.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:44.319
And and I say kids, these aren't kids, these are professional, um, brilliant minds that just have to be able to do that.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.720
These what 28-year-old children, is that what you're saying?
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:47.599
Dave, that's it.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.240
It's through the 40-somethings.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:59.839
So let's get into impact for a moment, because obviously impact now, I assume you wake up thinking about impact, you have lunch thinking about impact, and you go to bed thinking about impact.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:06.880
What do you what do you see as being effective and and and honestly more broadly meaningful ways of considering research impact?
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:13.599
Because I mean, we know this is the it's a perennial question, particularly in the last decade or two in in universities in this country and many others.
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:18.319
What for you really stands out as the good stuff or the most promising?
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.440
And also what do you think are where are we going most wrong?
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.039
Where are we misleading ourselves, I suppose, is one way of putting it.
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:34.319
So let me tell you a story from the STEM domain, um, where I think we have gone wrong historically.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:43.759
And that and that specifically is where we have gone from a bench discovery to a publication, which has then resulted in a bookshelf outcome.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:58.240
And that is fantastic for the continued exploration of human knowledge, but it doesn't help anybody as part of that journey to translation.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:04.000
And and all I mean by translation is use, use of that knowledge.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:25.680
So one of the things that I did um in the Center for Nanoscale Biophotonics, which is the large ARC center of excellence that I was um fortunate to be the director of, we identified really early that we needed to go from the bench, great, and absolutely collect the publications and get them onto the bookshelf.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.200
But then we had to take it to the next level and go to the boardroom.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:39.599
We actually had to get these amazing scientific discoveries understood by industry partners so that it could actually be presented in the boardroom.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:55.200
And when presenting it in the boardroom, that could be industry partners from a numerical value in terms of their bottom line of their budgets through to a societal benefit of monitoring of environmental um impacts, for example.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:05.599
So I see now, and it's quite clear in all of the metrics that um government and other agencies um globally are pushing out.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:17.759
We are needing to see a discovery made, confirmed with peer reviewed, published, and then utilized, just utilized.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.039
Now, one of the paths of that utilization may be commercialization.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:21.839
Amazing.
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:22.559
That's great.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:33.599
Let's put it into a form factor that um an industry partner that has a bottom line, that has shareholders, that has an owner, that can then use to generate revenue and jobs.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.319
Amazing.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.680
But the same can occur into a societal good impact and policy change.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:29:02.079
And so I see where I now um am big uh in ensuring that when we are having brilliant discoveries made by amazing humans that have spent the time at the bench, and many of those people should only stay at the bench because they will not be an effective communicator in the boardroom, that is fine.
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:24.880
Don't don't force everybody into the boardroom, but connect them in a connected communities of practice to allow for the broader community to understand those foundational discoveries so that then rather than by luck, but an intentionally engineered hope that that discovery can actually see the light of day with impact.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:32.160
And crucially, if it does have impact, you can actually tell the story of how it went from discovery through to impact.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:43.599
Because I think it's that narration of that um history that we have lost our ability to tell those stories of the idea that then had impact.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:30:08.319
And that's part of what um I am trying to uh cultivate and and create uh here within the new Adelaide University is that uh methods of impact measurement, but then also supporting the structures that allow for it to occur again, not by luck, but actual curated serendipity and engineered hope.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.720
Did you say curated serendipity?
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:11.200
I love that.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:11.680
Yeah.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.519
That's a great phrase.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:26.160
If we if we throw it all, if we just throw it all into the luck basket basket, I mean yeah, like just start doing things where you actually have a numerical guaranteed return in in some kind of lottery.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:27.279
I mean, yeah.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.359
No, let's let's actually engineer this.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:30.799
Look, it makes sense.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:41.680
So your transition from researcher to leader, manager, executive, whatever whatever you want to call it, did you feel well equipped from your researcher scientist background to move through?
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.440
Was it a complex journey?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.559
And linked to that, imposter syndrome.
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.279
How badly do you still have it if you ever did?
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:51.519
I I so let me start with that one.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.000
Yeah.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:03.119
In all honesty, I cultivate my imposter superpower continually so that I'm not a prick.
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:04.160
Yeah, fair.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:27.440
Um, because my honest feeling is that if I if I ever feel too comfortable in a room, I'm probably uh the arrogance level has elevated to a point where I'm probably not doing, I'm not sufficiently um uh I'm not sufficiently uh vulnerable enough and extending myself enough to actually be in that room.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.160
Um so I absolutely push that.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:36.480
Now, was I ready when I took on my that job as director of a center of excellence?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:37.279
Hell no.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:52.559
Um, but I had done enough and was trusted sufficiently by my peers that they knew that I was a semi-safe pair of hands and that I was going to run really hard to help um develop and curate that over time.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:01.680
And then I sought out experts in the spaces that were in management coordination leadership to then be mentored and grow that.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.279
So, you know, again, it's not a scientist can't just learn from other scientists.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:16.240
We actually have to go and seek out experts to then create a zip track of learning so that we keep adding more and more to our our capabilities over time.
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:29.759
And the beauty about today is that you can get access to some of these amazing um experts in the field, uh perhaps by a book, perhaps by a podcast, or you know, even going to see them one-on-one sometimes.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.880
But that absolutely is something I've curated over time.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:34.000
Fantastic.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:35.920
That's a very thoughtful answer.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.720
I like that one.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.720
Um I have really only one other question for you.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:46.480
I mentioned how I assumed you woke up thinking about impact, thought about impact all day, went to bed thinking about impact.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.480
You're trying to be a scientist successfully, you're trying to be a very senior leader successfully.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.319
Do you get time to do anything else?
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.079
What do you do when you're being not the guy at the uni human?
00:32:58.559 --> 00:32:59.680
I get to be a dad.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.119
I get to be a husband.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.759
Um, I get to be a son, an uncle, um, I and hopefully a friend.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:23.119
Um and so yeah, I I um I do protect non-work time, uh absolutely, so that then I can come and you know give everything at when I'm doing this, but then make sure I have enough in the tank so I can give plenty at home too.
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:25.359
So Do you read do you read dumb books?
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:26.319
Do you watch terrible movies?
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:29.039
Do you do anything like that, or is it all kind of a bit cliffy?
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:53.519
Love a good British comedy, a good uh a good amount of um yeah, uh sitting down with with the family and and having a good laugh, um, love a good crime, um, love a good um uh also then into the the the broader um understanding of what these new technologies are that aren't in my own space.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:12.800
So, you know, trying to keep up with where the latest is in large language models and agentic tools and how we can use those in science responsibly, uh, and then get challenged on that by all of my uh bioethics and and and AI responsible AI colleagues.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:25.280
So that's I'm I'm an eternal inquisitive explorer of new domains, um, much to the demise of my um subscriptions budgets.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.679
Um it's funny.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:28.639
You're gonna stay across it.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.320
Oh, and then I'm glad to hear that.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:39.840
I'm I'm glad no one has told me all they do is work, but there are there's a couple of people I've spoken with and they kind of paused for a moment and I thought, I'm gonna have to refer you to a therapist, but then they came up with something.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.440
They they did realize they had other lives.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.559
There's a reason that Tigger's up there in the corner there.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:52.639
It was given to me um by the team at the Center for Nanoscale Bar Platonics in the last couple of years because they realized that I was basically Tigger.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.360
I came into the room with the enthusiasm of Tigger.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.960
The problem with Tigger, Tigger does bring the enthusiasm.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.559
Tigger often breaks things as well.
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:01.199
He does.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:05.039
Um so yeah, you're gonna be willing to break stuff.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:06.400
Couldn't agree more.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:07.920
Um look this this has been great.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.960
I just I just all I want to give you the chance is is there anything you wished I'd asked you?
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.000
Is there anything you'd like to say and put on the record in and around our conversation?
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:35.440
No, I mean I I'm I'm just so pleased that you're having these conversations with science leaders to help people realize we're actually humans trying to do good things from within organizations that are trying to you know help change the world and train the rest of the world in the latest developments.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:44.000
So yeah, we we've just got to get better on this side, telling the stories of success and impact so that the rest of the world are talking about that.
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.480
Well, look, I I'm doing my best.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.920
But you know, if you haven't, if you ever need a guy to help out, you know, my my uh my people are waiting to hear from your people.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:52.880
It's all good.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.960
Look, Mark, thank you very much.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.400
I really enjoyed this conversation.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:04.559
And uh yeah, I'd like to talk for another three hours, but maybe next time in Adelaide, I'll uh harass you and buy you something delicious to drink and we will we'll have a chat.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:12.159
This has been the season finale of Science with Benefits, and I'm Rod Lambert.
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:16.159
I wanted to take a moment here to thank all my 15 guests this season.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:23.920
Without your generosity and willingness to share your time and your openness to tell me of stories, they could never have been a podcast at all.
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:33.599
And I, on a personal note, would have missed a chance to connect and reconnect with some truly interesting and inspirational people working and around the greatest tech sector.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:39.039
If you enjoyed season one, please rate, like, and share the show and stuff.
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.239
But also let me know if you think that should be a season too.
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.400
And maybe if you think would be an interesting and interested yes.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:55.039
I can be found at rod.lambert at Lambert within X at amu.edu.au or on LinkedIn.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:57.440
Cheers for now and talk to you soon.
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:08.960
I have to be honest, I found it extremely difficult to write a brief biography for Mark Hutchinson.
00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:38.240
At the moment, he's pro-vice-chancellor research performance at Adelaide University, and a member of the Prime Minister's National Science and Technology Council and Australian Economic Accelerator Board, also the leader of the Neuroimmunopharmacology Lab in the School of Pharmacy and Biomedical Science, and also chair of the Safeguarding Australia through Biotechnology Response and Engagement Alliance and the Australian Pain Solutions Research Alliance.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:47.359
In the past, he's been president of Science and Technology Australia and director of the ARC Centre for Nanoscale Biophotonics.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:55.600
Of course, that's not anywhere near all the leadership roles he's held, and I haven't included any of the multiple awards and nominations he's received as well.
00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:56.960
It's astounding.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:03.679
Mark is a stellar and experienced leader who knows intimately what it's like to work at the coalface as a researcher.
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:12.640
He's a scientist at heart, but he's deeply aware of the importance of bringing humanities, arts, and social sciences into the tent as well to have a true impact in the world.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:20.079
In his pain research, he makes sure he and his people center the lived experience of real humans in pain.
00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:23.120
This is not theoretical work for Mark.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.920
He's driven to make sure this work makes a difference.
00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:32.239
Something I found particularly enjoyable in this conversation was the way it was peppered with quotable quotes.
00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:34.480
Here are two that I really liked.
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:41.519
First, that he's driven to see research that has, quote, impact beyond the bookshelf.
00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:42.480
That's quite nifty.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:51.200
Second, the importance of balancing specific goals while still allowing opportunities for spontaneous, unintentional discovery.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:57.840
Or as he puts it, by building environments that foster, quote, curated serendipity and engineered hope.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:01:59.680
I love that phrase.
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.560
Curated serendipity and engineered hope.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:10.479
Mark was also open about how he cultivates imposter syndrome, basically to ensure he stays humble.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:14.960
This is a real danger when you have a CV like his that sparkles like a Christmas tree.
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:28.240
He also confessed that he's been regularly described as having the enthusiasm of Tigger, powerful, inspirational energy, with the added, we'll call it benefit of being willing to break stuff.
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:36.240
I'm Rod Lambert, a veteran science communicator with nearly 30 years of teaching, learning, and doing SICOM under my belt.
00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:45.199
My chat with Mark coming up next on this season finale episode of Science with Benefits, STEM sector insights from the people who know.
00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.120
Mark Hutchinson, thank you hugely for joining me.
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:54.159
I'm so keen to talk to you.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:56.639
I haven't talked to you for I don't know how many years now.
00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:58.879
The formal term is yonks, mate.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.000
Uh it's been a while.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:01.039
Yeah, yonks.
00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:02.639
More than one yonk.
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:03.520
Yeah.
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:10.879
And uh you have now become the Pro-Vice Chancellor of Research Performance at the University of Adelaide.
00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:12.879
At Adelaide University.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.080
Adelaide, the the newest top 100 university in the world.
00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:19.199
Congratulations.
00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:20.639
That's all down to you.
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:21.280
No.
00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.080
It's we're we're the oldest new university.
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:26.800
How's that?
00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.599
Well, you're you're um you've you've taken two and made one beautiful hybrid, haven't you?
00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:32.319
Correct.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:32.719
Yes.
00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:50.639
It's been um uh an extraordinary ride, and we are now living out the the mandate that the state government, it's very rarely that you have the state government say, we believe in you, go, go, go, um, and create something brand new that's uh hopefully the greater than the sum of its parts.
00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:52.560
Uh look, from what I hear, it's already happening.
00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:59.919
And I've I've spoken to your colleague as we discussed already, and he seems to be well and truly convinced it's going well, in in a humble way, I might add.
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:02.319
Mark Wall, very humble about his achievements.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.000
It was hard to get him to boast.
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.319
In fact, I don't think I succeeded.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:08.639
I'll see if I can get you to boast.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:09.199
How about that?
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:10.639
Well, let's start with then.
00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.840
How did you find yourself in this chair now?
00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.600
Because you've had some very impressive positions in the past.
00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:19.439
How'd you end up in this one?
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:24.480
Um I I don't think I've planned any of this, Rob.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:52.240
Um so I in all honesty, uh where I'm where I'm coming to this seat of Private Chancellor Research Performance is as a research active um science leader who is aware of um government policy, industry needs, uh, and knows what it's like to work both at the um coal face as a researcher at the bench through to then trying to do something with it.
00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.759
So um that's that's where I'm coming to this from.
00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:21.839
Um, really keen to be leading uh the endeavors of the university in in research excellence, but then also in achieving ensuring that we achieve uh the performance that society uh are expecting of universities today to deliver, which includes both nature and science-worthy science discoveries, research discoveries broadly across, and I've got to remember, always remember Mark, it's not about STEM only now.
00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:25.839
It's also about the humanities and arts and social sciences as well.
00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.480
But then, you know, making sure we have that impact.
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.600
And that's what I'm now trying to champion for the next little while here in this seat.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.720
Oh, well, there's a there's a few things I want to ask you off the back of that then.
00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.000
I I think the that, remember it's not STEM only.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:45.040
I understand that very well coming from my own background, but um how are you finding that?
00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:54.879
Because there's there's no question in my mind the the support, the interaction or the mutual support of different disciplines, often quite disparate ones, super critical and extremely fruitful.
00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:56.160
But how are you finding that?
00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.560
Because that's not necessarily your your natural place.
00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:20.000
Well, it's not, but uh, I guess I'm a I'm a scientist at heart and I've created a career in science, but and I and I say a beat but here, I have always attempted to work across uh disciplines, both within science and more broadly.
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:32.160
And so um I I think that we often um uh create these um artificial barriers in in terms of who we talk to because of perhaps the building we're in.
00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:37.600
And actually what we need to be considering is that you put the best foot forward.
00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:52.800
And if you're telling your science story to a broad uh audience, it may not be the person in the white lab coat who is the best person to tell that story to that all of all aspects of that broad audience.
00:06:53.040 --> 00:07:08.399
And vice versa, there are elements of measurement, um, technology, and um use of science that have a multitude of indications, including into the um humanities, arts and social sciences.
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:33.279
So, yeah, and we did we even did some of that back in the day, just in a building, just behind me here, where we took new photonic glass and made it into, well we didn't make it, the art glass artists made it into new um fluorescent, luminescent glass art because we identified new ways to use scientific tools in in the art uh arts domain.
00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:33.920
Excellent.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:40.480
Well, look, I obviously I fully applaud that as a SICOM guy, because my background is quite I was gonna say diverse, but that sounds too lofty.
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.680
I'll say mixed up and confused, you know, many different backgrounds.
00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:56.319
And and the I'm heartened to see the extent to which we'll call the old term of hard sciences are now embracing the necessity and and the utility of of the social sciences, the arts, the humanities, and so forth.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:57.839
I think it's um it's superb.
00:07:57.920 --> 00:07:59.839
And I love that it's not just lip service.
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.800
It's not just sort of good on you, fellas, we'll bring you with us.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:03.360
Thank God.
00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:04.000
Oh, no.
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:08.000
I mean, we've got to do it to uh yeah, hand in glove the entire way.
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:32.720
And and in a in a large, internationally um renowned institution that has breadth in its research, we would be stupid not to harness the true excellence that comes from multiple domains, independent of the college name that's on a building, um, or dare I say, the building that we we find ourselves occupying.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:34.320
So what do you think then?
00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:53.360
Do you I know there has traditionally, and I'll say traditionally because it's been my own experience of decades past, a certain resistance, um, particularly from hardcore technical experts, to accept that sort of softer, more social um mechanisms and tools for for doing their work, communicating their work, etc.
00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:55.120
Do you see much of that anymore?
00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:01.200
I'm not asking to dob in people, but I'm just curious to see if you see much of that or what if you do, what sort of shape it takes.
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:13.279
So I I I don't uh see it uh being uh viscerally objected to at the moment.
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:29.440
Um I think I think there's always going to be a debate around the the visceral response I have when it comes to um communication of complex concepts is this um uh assumption that we need to dumb it down.
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:31.279
It's like hell no, no.
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:46.480
I mean there's a there's a simple um uh need, but the simplicity is actually the need to create the communic communication in a clear and precise fashion, which is generally accessible.
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.840
That does not necessitate simplification.
00:09:50.159 --> 00:10:11.519
Uh and so I I think that's where we need to have um uh sort of a broader appreciation for the complexity of what our colleagues um actually grasp um outside of our disciplines, what general society are actually grappling with in the complexity of what they're used to and making what we do real.
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:17.120
Now, does that mean that we lead with Maxwell's equation when we're telling our story?
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.679
Please no, please, please no.
00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:23.120
Um, but is there a better way to tell our stories?
00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:23.679
Yes.
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:29.120
Uh and so I think that's sort of the the journey I I'm seeing many people going on.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:46.639
Uh and if I look at you know my own research in pain, um I've just spent the morning um introducing one of my new PhD students to uh people, pain consumers, people who have lived experience of pain.
00:10:46.960 --> 00:11:08.000
So that Claire, in the first weeks of her PhD, is not in an ivory tower, is actually speaking to the people who will be participating in her future research program, and crucially, hopefully will benefit because of the discoveries, foundational discoveries that she makes in her research.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.799
But she needs to know who these people are and know that these are real humans out there.
00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.480
And they also then know that this amazing new research is occurring.
00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:30.000
So those, I think, are things that uh I'm seeing now happening today that you know, 10 years ago we weren't, we weren't doing um rigorously in engagement early in these research programs.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.200
Is that to the demise of our past research endeavors?
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:34.399
Most likely.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:46.639
Um, but you know, we are now um at the forefront of that co-creation, co-design uh approach today to ensure that what we do is meaningful to people out there in the real world.
00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:50.399
Um, and crucially, that the real world understands what we're doing today.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:55.120
Well, yeah, I'm I'm glad you mentioned pain, because I had I had on my notes to ask you about this.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:02.080
I can't think of a more deeply personal thing to be measuring or or researching than pain, really.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:08.240
I mean, of course there are other things, but pain is super personal, extremely individually experienced, I would imagine.
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:12.399
And I remember reading in your bio because I hadn't read your bio for quite some time.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.360
The um objective measurement of pain.
00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:19.440
You've worked on and come up with objective measurements of pain.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:20.639
Is that fair to say?
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:21.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:38.960
So it actually the very last experiment I did in my PhD was the first identification that there was a change in the blood and specifically the immune cells in the blood that was proportional to the amount of pain that someone could experience.
00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:45.519
So that's that is now, gosh, uh 22 years ago that we did those work.
00:12:45.679 --> 00:13:00.559
And so for the last two decades, I've been doing further refinement and analysis of that work that has now allowed us to um create um rapid um quantification of pain from blood.
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:05.360
We actually now understand elements, only elements of why that occurs.
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.200
And and to that personalizing of the experience.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:36.799
Two years ago, I had an innocuous back injury, which resulted in me being at the emergency department and not getting um, well, not being believed that I wasn't a drug-seeking, um, drug diverting addict until um, fortunately uh for me, um some some of the clinical staff who I ended up having taught recognized me, like, what are you doing here?
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:44.000
Um so yeah, I I now know, and and crucially, so many people out there will go, that's my story.
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:49.120
These people didn't believe that I had pain or didn't understand the pain that I have.
00:13:49.279 --> 00:14:05.519
So, yeah, going that full cycle of um researching pain, understanding pain, being a world expert in in pain measurement to not being able to communicate effectively my own pain experience to those who were caring for me.
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.519
Yeah, look, I mean, it doesn't matter how clever we are, the human experience always wins, right?
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:10.480
And I and I'm not surprised.
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:11.840
No, well, I am surprised.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:18.559
I mean, I used to work in environments where let's just say I knew what a junkie looked like, your picture would not be on the wall.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.120
I would not look at you and say, hmm, this guy.
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:36.320
The fascinating thing though is that and I and I I I do have sympathy for um the clinical staff in this case because we don't have the tools that allow us to see in some inside someone's pain experience.
00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:40.639
We still literally ask someone on a scale of one to ten, how much pain are you in?
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:47.679
And for my presentation, as with many other people's presentations with pain, it was an innocuous injury.
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.960
It wasn't, you know, I didn't have an arm hanging off by you know the tendons.
00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.960
I wasn't, I didn't have an obvious injury.
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:07.679
Um, and the absence of that um injury to proportional to the amount of um excruciating pain I was in, and many other people are in, is this disconnect.
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.360
I don't see it, so therefore I can't quite quantify it.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:24.000
Um, that's the complexity in the pain space, which is why we need to be doing more work in these foundational discovery elements combined with rapid translation so we can actually have the impact that we need.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.879
So I assume then pain is, I mean, everyone's had some, more or less.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:34.399
I assume, therefore, that you must get a lot of, let's call it, uh, heartfelt advice from people.
00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:41.039
I'm sure everyone has an opinion on pain and what's real and what's not, and how much is okay, what to do about it, etc.
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.240
I I imagine in your realm that would be uh we'll call it both a boon and a bane, huh?
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:56.399
Well, so it crucially uh pain is both uh a a biological nature, but also a psychosocial construct.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.799
So our best understanding of pain today is the biopsychosocial construct.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:20.320
Now, if we're truly to um live that out, it means that our understanding of pain needs to go from the nanoscale molecular interactions right through to appreciating that things outside of my skin layer are going to influence how I experience pain.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:20.720
Yeah.
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:22.559
That's kind of complicated.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:29.840
Um and so and so that's that's the the challenges that we have in the pain field.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:52.159
I mean, the pain field only revised and updated its most recent um definitions of pain um just a couple of years ago, where we now formally accept that it is both um uh an appreciation of pain as an experience as well as an anticipated experience of potential tissue damage, but it doesn't have to be proportional to tissue damage.
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.440
And then crucially, for us, we're talking to each other.
00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:01.360
Fine, we can talk about pain, we can express the different, the nuance, the complexity of pain.
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:09.680
But just because you don't have language doesn't now, based on the definition, doesn't mean that your biology is not experiencing that pain.
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:18.880
So that means children who don't have language yet are experiencing pain, even though they can't necessarily tell us or even communicate it.
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.559
Someone who's unconscious can still be experiencing pain.
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:28.720
And then crucially, um, right through to aged people who have lost that uh ability to talk.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.720
And then animals, the other kingdom, um, all experience pain.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.240
And so clearly, measurement kind of is important if we want to then intervene in that.
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:39.119
Oh, yeah.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.759
Look, I'd I'd like to just talk about this for two hours.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.480
But we won't, because there are other things I need to touch on, and I don't want to keep you from your important duties.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:52.480
Um thinking a bit back to well, actually, no, I will I will pivot slightly through this.
00:17:52.640 --> 00:18:02.640
The misinformation, disinformation side of things in your field, before we go back to your larger portfolio again, do you see key misinformation, disinformation effects?
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:09.039
Are there are there common stories about pain, its treatment, etc., or the personalities of people who are in pain?
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.960
Because I'm sure there's a lot of that kind of thing going on.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.079
Anything that stands out for you or is more frequent?
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:36.480
So I think uh of the um worlds of medical domains that um we have literally gone to war over, pain is probably the only one, and that is because of our history of use of drugs associated with pain, specifically the opioids.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:55.200
Um and so there are the opioid um wars of old through to the opioid pandemics uh of today, um, which have resulted in um more people dying from a medicine than you know has been associated with car accidents and the like.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:30.079
So we we we're dealing with um hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been cut short because of a medicine which was initially um indicated for pain management, uh, and various marketing has occurred over time by various companies who have then not gone on to be um litigated against because of practices associated with um uh a disconnect between the evidence base for quality clinical use and then the marketing practices and use and sales that were associated with it.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:37.920
Now, that's a massive thing that we're still really only just coming out the back of globally.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:56.160
And that has resulted, unfortunately, in people who usually would have got access to medicines like me, rocking up to the emergency department, not getting access to medicines that they needed for the presentation of pain that they were in.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:06.240
And so that's now this ball is uh not knee-jerk, appropriate response, but a constraining of the um access to medicines that would otherwise be useful.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.920
Um that that is a massive challenge.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:22.319
But then I think there's the other side where we go from the um perception that there are things out there, that there are magic new treatments that have been hidden from us.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:32.640
And unfortunately, this seems to be on a um regular um 6:30 to 7 o'clock at night, once every month, brand new breakthrough in pain treatment.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:44.880
And it involves you spending roughly$50 to$100 a month to a subscription to gain access to this brand new device or intervention that's previously been hidden from you.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.319
Um my goodness.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:21:06.400
If if we had, yeah, we we need to spend more time creating the evidence base to test um the use of novel interventional treatments for the management of pain to actually create the evidence base to justify most of these claims.
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.200
Um and I think that's this this rush.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:16.160
Now, why did it why is it okay that these things keep coming up and going out into the general community?
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.920
Um uh because we can't measure pain.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.480
So that means there's a lot of people in pain.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:29.519
Um, so there's a lot of demand from a simple let's chase the dollars side of the industry.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:35.119
So let's just throw a solution in there and hope that we grab some of that market of people who are in pain.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:54.400
Um, which means that a lot of people feel who who live with chronic pain feel uh quite rightly disheartened and create distrust in um repeated failings of these interventions because a bunch of them are absolute rubbish.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, there's some potential nuggets in there, but crucially, when we talk about pain, it's not.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.400
This one massive sane bucket.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:06.880
We're dealing with very, very bespoke, defined approaches.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:08.319
Just like cancer.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.559
Cancer, you don't just go and get one treatment for the all of cancer.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.319
You have defined precision medicine for each type of cancer.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.319
We don't do that yet with pain.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.200
So misinformation abounds.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:22.400
I can imagine.
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.680
I mean, maybe we're in a world where, like with cancer, we need a better term that isn't just one big bucket.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:29.119
Maybe there isn't just pain.
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.559
Maybe we need subpains or things don't have the word pain in them at all.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:42.559
Well, so yes, then there's these words uh no susception, no susceptible pain, um, neuropathic pain, no supplastic pain.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:50.720
Um, and and then um this this then creates this massive debate as to which of these buckets does the pain fall into.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:23:00.640
Um that helps us scientifically uh explore what the origins might be, which really you know, we we don't want to just admire the problem.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.599
We then have to match the treatments or the potential beneficial remedies to a defined type.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.519
Now, I think that's the challenge.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:22.640
We still are struggling to actually place um a complex pain state and place match people to the best, most likely bucket, which then allows them to then get the best treatment options.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:31.519
Those are the the challenges that we're facing right now, and a bunch of the work that we're actually undertaking right now is allowing us to delineate those different types of pain.
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.240
But yeah, we've got work to do.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:36.799
I have no doubt.
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:44.880
Speaking of that, then um you said up top that you are both a practicing as well as a I'm paraphrasing an administrative person.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:52.400
How much time do you actually get to spend on your research side of the world versus your uh research performance oversight?
00:23:53.039 --> 00:24:05.839
So so as of today, um I moved from running my lab in 2013 to running research programs.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:25.440
So it's just on 13 years now that I've been balancing that um lab-based role, which means my team of brilliant postdocs, um, professional staff and students are absolutely spectacular at knowing that Mark is not the rate limiting step for the science.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:32.640
That does not mean that I don't then still get to go into the lab and still do some of the surgery and still actually am at the bench.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.839
Um, but I don't get to do that um as much as I used to.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:46.960
But that's probably a good thing because you know these the the kids that are coming through today, oh my goodness, they are so much better than me.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:53.039
Uh, and they are the ones that should be doing all the thinking and and the uh and the work at the bench.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880
Um I do get to spend some time um digesting science, but I do it in really different ways than I used to.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.240
I mean, I was I was reminiscing just the other day with one of my postdocs.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:10.480
We used to talk about going to the library to get the photocopy card to then go and get the journals to then read them.
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:19.119
Um now I get you know hundreds of papers downloaded, you know, at a at a whim, um, more than I can digest.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:30.880
Um but now we've got a range of different tools that allow us to get the synthesis of those outcomes from those papers to then allow us to jump in in a really targeted fashion to digest that.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:39.759
So I I do get some time, um, not as much as I used to, but that's probably a good thing given the kids that are in the lab actually doing the work.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:44.319
And and I say kids, these aren't kids, these are professional, um, brilliant minds that just have to be able to do that.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.720
These what 28-year-old children, is that what you're saying?
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:47.599
Dave, that's it.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.240
It's through the 40-somethings.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:59.839
So let's get into impact for a moment, because obviously impact now, I assume you wake up thinking about impact, you have lunch thinking about impact, and you go to bed thinking about impact.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:06.880
What do you what do you see as being effective and and and honestly more broadly meaningful ways of considering research impact?
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:13.599
Because I mean, we know this is the it's a perennial question, particularly in the last decade or two in in universities in this country and many others.
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:18.319
What for you really stands out as the good stuff or the most promising?
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.440
And also what do you think are where are we going most wrong?
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.039
Where are we misleading ourselves, I suppose, is one way of putting it.
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:34.319
So let me tell you a story from the STEM domain, um, where I think we have gone wrong historically.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:43.759
And that and that specifically is where we have gone from a bench discovery to a publication, which has then resulted in a bookshelf outcome.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:58.240
And that is fantastic for the continued exploration of human knowledge, but it doesn't help anybody as part of that journey to translation.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:04.000
And and all I mean by translation is use, use of that knowledge.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:25.680
So one of the things that I did um in the Center for Nanoscale Biophotonics, which is the large ARC center of excellence that I was um fortunate to be the director of, we identified really early that we needed to go from the bench, great, and absolutely collect the publications and get them onto the bookshelf.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.200
But then we had to take it to the next level and go to the boardroom.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:39.599
We actually had to get these amazing scientific discoveries understood by industry partners so that it could actually be presented in the boardroom.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:55.200
And when presenting it in the boardroom, that could be industry partners from a numerical value in terms of their bottom line of their budgets through to a societal benefit of monitoring of environmental um impacts, for example.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:05.599
So I see now, and it's quite clear in all of the metrics that um government and other agencies um globally are pushing out.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:17.759
We are needing to see a discovery made, confirmed with peer reviewed, published, and then utilized, just utilized.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.039
Now, one of the paths of that utilization may be commercialization.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:21.839
Amazing.
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:22.559
That's great.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:33.599
Let's put it into a form factor that um an industry partner that has a bottom line, that has shareholders, that has an owner, that can then use to generate revenue and jobs.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.319
Amazing.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.680
But the same can occur into a societal good impact and policy change.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:29:02.079
And so I see where I now um am big uh in ensuring that when we are having brilliant discoveries made by amazing humans that have spent the time at the bench, and many of those people should only stay at the bench because they will not be an effective communicator in the boardroom, that is fine.
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:24.880
Don't don't force everybody into the boardroom, but connect them in a connected communities of practice to allow for the broader community to understand those foundational discoveries so that then rather than by luck, but an intentionally engineered hope that that discovery can actually see the light of day with impact.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:32.160
And crucially, if it does have impact, you can actually tell the story of how it went from discovery through to impact.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:43.599
Because I think it's that narration of that um history that we have lost our ability to tell those stories of the idea that then had impact.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:30:08.319
And that's part of what um I am trying to uh cultivate and and create uh here within the new Adelaide University is that uh methods of impact measurement, but then also supporting the structures that allow for it to occur again, not by luck, but actual curated serendipity and engineered hope.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.720
Did you say curated serendipity?
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:11.200
I love that.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:11.680
Yeah.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.519
That's a great phrase.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:26.160
If we if we throw it all, if we just throw it all into the luck basket basket, I mean yeah, like just start doing things where you actually have a numerical guaranteed return in in some kind of lottery.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:27.279
I mean, yeah.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.359
No, let's let's actually engineer this.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:30.799
Look, it makes sense.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:41.680
So your transition from researcher to leader, manager, executive, whatever whatever you want to call it, did you feel well equipped from your researcher scientist background to move through?
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.440
Was it a complex journey?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.559
And linked to that, imposter syndrome.
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.279
How badly do you still have it if you ever did?
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:51.519
I I so let me start with that one.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.000
Yeah.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:03.119
In all honesty, I cultivate my imposter superpower continually so that I'm not a prick.
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:04.160
Yeah, fair.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:27.440
Um, because my honest feeling is that if I if I ever feel too comfortable in a room, I'm probably uh the arrogance level has elevated to a point where I'm probably not doing, I'm not sufficiently um uh I'm not sufficiently uh vulnerable enough and extending myself enough to actually be in that room.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.160
Um so I absolutely push that.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:36.480
Now, was I ready when I took on my that job as director of a center of excellence?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:37.279
Hell no.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:52.559
Um, but I had done enough and was trusted sufficiently by my peers that they knew that I was a semi-safe pair of hands and that I was going to run really hard to help um develop and curate that over time.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:01.680
And then I sought out experts in the spaces that were in management coordination leadership to then be mentored and grow that.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.279
So, you know, again, it's not a scientist can't just learn from other scientists.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:16.240
We actually have to go and seek out experts to then create a zip track of learning so that we keep adding more and more to our our capabilities over time.
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:29.759
And the beauty about today is that you can get access to some of these amazing um experts in the field, uh perhaps by a book, perhaps by a podcast, or you know, even going to see them one-on-one sometimes.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.880
But that absolutely is something I've curated over time.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:34.000
Fantastic.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:35.920
That's a very thoughtful answer.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.720
I like that one.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.720
Um I have really only one other question for you.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:46.480
I mentioned how I assumed you woke up thinking about impact, thought about impact all day, went to bed thinking about impact.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.480
You're trying to be a scientist successfully, you're trying to be a very senior leader successfully.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.319
Do you get time to do anything else?
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.079
What do you do when you're being not the guy at the uni human?
00:32:58.559 --> 00:32:59.680
I get to be a dad.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.119
I get to be a husband.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.759
Um, I get to be a son, an uncle, um, I and hopefully a friend.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:23.119
Um and so yeah, I I um I do protect non-work time, uh absolutely, so that then I can come and you know give everything at when I'm doing this, but then make sure I have enough in the tank so I can give plenty at home too.
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:25.359
So Do you read do you read dumb books?
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:26.319
Do you watch terrible movies?
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:29.039
Do you do anything like that, or is it all kind of a bit cliffy?
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:53.519
Love a good British comedy, a good uh a good amount of um yeah, uh sitting down with with the family and and having a good laugh, um, love a good crime, um, love a good um uh also then into the the the broader um understanding of what these new technologies are that aren't in my own space.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:12.800
So, you know, trying to keep up with where the latest is in large language models and agentic tools and how we can use those in science responsibly, uh, and then get challenged on that by all of my uh bioethics and and and AI responsible AI colleagues.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:25.280
So that's I'm I'm an eternal inquisitive explorer of new domains, um, much to the demise of my um subscriptions budgets.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.679
Um it's funny.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:28.639
You're gonna stay across it.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.320
Oh, and then I'm glad to hear that.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:39.840
I'm I'm glad no one has told me all they do is work, but there are there's a couple of people I've spoken with and they kind of paused for a moment and I thought, I'm gonna have to refer you to a therapist, but then they came up with something.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.440
They they did realize they had other lives.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.559
There's a reason that Tigger's up there in the corner there.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:52.639
It was given to me um by the team at the Center for Nanoscale Bar Platonics in the last couple of years because they realized that I was basically Tigger.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.360
I came into the room with the enthusiasm of Tigger.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.960
The problem with Tigger, Tigger does bring the enthusiasm.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.559
Tigger often breaks things as well.
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:01.199
He does.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:05.039
Um so yeah, you're gonna be willing to break stuff.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:06.400
Couldn't agree more.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:07.920
Um look this this has been great.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.960
I just I just all I want to give you the chance is is there anything you wished I'd asked you?
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.000
Is there anything you'd like to say and put on the record in and around our conversation?
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:35.440
No, I mean I I'm I'm just so pleased that you're having these conversations with science leaders to help people realize we're actually humans trying to do good things from within organizations that are trying to you know help change the world and train the rest of the world in the latest developments.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:44.000
So yeah, we we've just got to get better on this side, telling the stories of success and impact so that the rest of the world are talking about that.
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.480
Well, look, I I'm doing my best.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.920
But you know, if you haven't, if you ever need a guy to help out, you know, my my uh my people are waiting to hear from your people.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:52.880
It's all good.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.960
Look, Mark, thank you very much.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.400
I really enjoyed this conversation.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:04.559
And uh yeah, I'd like to talk for another three hours, but maybe next time in Adelaide, I'll uh harass you and buy you something delicious to drink and we will we'll have a chat.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:12.159
This has been the season finale of Science with Benefits, and I'm Rod Lambert.
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:16.159
I wanted to take a moment here to thank all my 15 guests this season.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:23.920
Without your generosity and willingness to share your time and your openness to tell me of stories, they could never have been a podcast at all.
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:33.599
And I, on a personal note, would have missed a chance to connect and reconnect with some truly interesting and inspirational people working and around the greatest tech sector.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:39.039
If you enjoyed season one, please rate, like, and share the show and stuff.
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.239
But also let me know if you think that should be a season too.
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.400
And maybe if you think would be an interesting and interested yes.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:55.039
I can be found at rod.lambert at Lambert within X at amu.edu.au or on LinkedIn.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:57.440
Cheers for now and talk to you soon.
