WEBVTT
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Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
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It's Friday, and we have a bonus episode today.
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I'm going to call this part two to the last episode, the last lessons episode.
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And this portion, the second portion, is actually going to be kind of a combo between lessons and interview with Balin from Chimicum Grainery.
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She was already on the podcast early on, and we had such a great conversation, and she really was generous and wanted to come back on and talk about different types of grain, grain varieties, extraction rates, and how we can all speak the same language.
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And when I started the Saving Bread podcast, a huge part of my motivation was putting myself back in my own shoes when I first started baking, and I took a class about whole grain, and it was a wonderful class.
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I learned so much, but I also felt I like I didn't understand some of the things that were being said.
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And I pretended like I did, but I really didn't know, and I I didn't have the uh the bravery to ask enough questions at that time.
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And I really want everyone to feel like we can all come sit at the same table, we can speak the same language, we can talk about things in a way that everyone understands.
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That feels really respectful.
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There's no gatekeeping, there's no ego, there's none of that.
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It's just a friendly conversation where we all help each other learn.
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And that really was the energy and the vibe that I wanted to create here.
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And really making sure we all feel welcome and we all feel like we know what's going on.
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So I've been slowly working my way through these lessons episodes.
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And when it comes to grain, I just felt like I really needed to reach out to someone else to talk about this.
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Because while I work with a lot of whole grain, I wouldn't consider myself an expert in milling or extraction rates or anything like that.
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I'm very good at using whole grain when I receive it because I feel like I have a good relationship with my methods and my flower.
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But I I'm really glad that Balin wanted to come back on and talk with us because she's such an expert and the way that she thinks about it is so beautiful.
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And I just love her energy and her vibe, and it's so welcoming and warm.
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So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation between Balin and I and that you learn something new and you feel excited to go out into the world and support your local miller and start incorporating these whole grains into your baking because that's really what it's all about supporting the people around us who are working with their hands, who are just trying so hard to keep this alive.
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And so we should reward that by learning how to use what they're growing and putting it into our bakes.
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So again, I I hope you just love this chit chat between me and Baylin.
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I'm Allie White, and this is Saving Bread.
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So it's very fun.
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Yeah, thanks for having me back again.
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I love everything that is getting put out there that you're putting out in on the pod.
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So it's been fun.
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Your necklace is really cool.
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I just noticed it right now.
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Okay, thanks.
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I love, I love it.
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You're always so cool.
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Okay.
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Heart locket.
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Yes.
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Is there a picture inside of the locket?
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Uh, not yet.
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Okay.
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TBD.
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We're still deciding.
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Yeah.
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Maybe it'll be just a little thing of grain, just one smaller grain piece.
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There you go.
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In there.
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Perfect.
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Speaking of, that's what we're gonna talk about today.
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We're going to talk about flower selection, maybe talk about a few different varieties of flower and get into that chit-chat a bit.
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So, how would you like to start this conversation, Balin?
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Yeah, well, I think that it's really easy to um kind of get overwhelmed with how much different variety is out there in terms of grain.
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And I think it's important for people to choose to have like a little bit of um definition around what the grain is going to do to your bake and in terms of like flavor profile and functionality.
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Um, and so to I guess start there.
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Yeah.
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I think that what you're saying, um, oh, you know what?
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Let me turn off my notifications.
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Someone's texting me about vanilla.
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She makes vanilla in large batches, and I was like, give me some of that vanilla extract.
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I think that when people are first starting out, and even if they've been baking for a long time, they might not know which, let's say they want to swap out 20, 50, even 100% of the flour that they're using for a whole grain.
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And they go out and they start shopping and they see things like um Joaquin Oro, uh, Edison, Sonora, Eincorn, Spelt, Um, Yakora Rojo, or they'll see hard red, soft red, hard white, soft white.
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And they don't it there's it's overwhelming.
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And so when there's two coming out now, it's just like gaining so much momentum and traction that it's like, where do you even start?
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Yeah, and so I think it can feel overwhelming.
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And so I would love for us to be able to give our listeners an idea of what questions they should ask.
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So when they see a name of something, they can say, Is this a hard red wheat?
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What is the protein?
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and start to understand how some of these things function.
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So why don't we start with what I think is kind of both of our area of uh special interests, which would be bread.
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So if we wanted to choose a wheat for bread, what do you think some of those options would be?
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Let's take the fancy names out of it and just pare it down, dial it down into what types of grain work well if you wanted to suddenly swap out 20% of your white red flour for a whole grain.
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Yeah, I would be looking for like a hard red spring to swap out.
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That's gonna be for a whole grain.
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And then the other thing I I don't know if you really want to get into this quite yet or not, but one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is like how we define terms with like whole wheat versus whole grain.
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But we can talk about that now, we can talk about that later.
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But let's talk about let's I do want to talk about that because it's an issue that I just went through.
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And so I think it is very, very important to make sure that we're all speaking the same language, and if we're not sure, to confirm with the person that we're speaking the same language.
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Yeah.
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But let's start with let's start with what you just said.
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So hard, a hard red wheat.
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What about a hard white wheat?
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Yeah, I would do a hard white kind of like as an addition to a formula.
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Ours is a hard red and a hard white blend together.
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The hard white is gonna give you a little bit more extensibility.
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It's not like that super powerhouse structural flower if you're gonna be using it in terms of like a freeform loaf.
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And then having another fun flower in there as like just a little sprinkle, like a rye or a spelt or a buckwheat, or we have one up here salish blue that's a perennial that is a really great softer wheat, and it's got a really beautiful, kind of like nutty profile.
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Um let's say that we wanted to swap out anywhere from between 20 to 100% of our white bread flour for a for right now, let's call it a whole grain flour.
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What you're saying is first and foremost, a hard red berry.
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Option to pair it with a hard white.
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And then the fun flour, which could be spelt, buckwheat, rye.
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What percentage do you think a person could add in of a fun flour?
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Yeah, I would until you kind of really start to become more comfortable with how that flower works, whichever flour it is that you're choosing, I would start pretty low.
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I would go with 7 to 12%.
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I would go really low.
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Something enough to kind of like, depending on what the flower is, something enough to see it and be able to start to taste it a little bit, but nothing that's going to really profoundly affect your your the structure of your sourdough.
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If you're working with it and you are and you're wanting to take a little heavier risk and you're baking your loaf for your family or whatever, and you're working with it and you go to 20% that fun wheat, which is great, and you're messing with it and it's not coming together, put it in a pan and give it some give it some tangible structure so that it's not trying to hold itself up.
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Yes, I think the the couple of caveats to that percentage for me would be eincorn and buckwheat.
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Sure.
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I would say for those ones, possibly like five percent, or what I like to do, and I'm sure you do too, and I've seen a lot of bakers do this as well, is use those ones in a scald.
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Yeah, so that it's bound, yeah, and then you can increase it to a lot higher.
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Um, those are really great tips.
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Can we just uh dial it just back for one second between the hard red and the hard white?
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Why would a person want to use other than extensibility, hard red and hard white, let's say they're going for a hundred percent whole grain.
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I like to use both, but for me it's because the hard red tends to be quite tannic when it's at a hundred percent.
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So I like to offset that with the hard white, which is a little bit more mild, a little bit sweeter, but as you said, it's it's not as robust in like it's sometimes it it can not be as as robust in its gluten performance and its strength and its structure.
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Do you find yourself blending the two for those reasons or other reasons?
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I find blending them, yeah, for those reasons.
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Also um to kind of allow, I think I covered this on our episode before, but like to allow some familiarity in product with our customers too.
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Oh, okay, yeah.
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So, so and when I was first starting to switch over to all whole grain, it was familiarity for myself.
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So, you know, it's not something that they're gonna buy and they're gonna look at and be like, Whoa, that's like really, really different from the the sourdough loaves I'm used to buying.
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It lightens things up a little bit, it does definitely contribute to like cream a more creaminess.
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Like, yeah, I don't know if it's normal for hard whites to have kind of like a buttery or like more fatty kind of consistency to them, but that's what I found with the Edison and some of the hard whites that we've been using is that it is, yeah, it has like a it seems to have like a higher fat content or something.
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I think the first question when someone is going out and shopping asking millers, farmers for a new grain, the first question they could ask is what type of wheat berry is this?
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And the answer should be hard red or hard white if we're looking for something that we can use in a free form loaf, right?
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Absolutely okay, cool.
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Great.
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I think that's really helpful and and a tangible thing for someone who's kind of newer to this to hold on to.
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And from there, we have soft wheat.
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Right?
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Soft white is quite popular.
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Is there soft red?
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I'm sure there must be.
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I think so, yeah.
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I I don't hear about it as often someone's gonna be listening to this and be like, of course there is.
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And they're gonna send me a message.
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Um please do.
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Um right, yeah.
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It happens.
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So let's say we have some soft white sonora.
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I would say eincorn is a little bit in that category for me, or at least that's sort of where I place it.
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Um, although eincorn's its own special thing.
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So when someone is out shopping and they they contact a farmer or a miller and they say, Oh, I have a soft white wheat, where are you as the baker placing that soft white wheat?
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Yeah, I would place that in a cookie.
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I would place that in uh what I would call kind of like when when you consider the baking menu in functionality and workability in a spectrum, I have like high-risk products and low risk products, right?
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My high-risk products are products that either have a ton of very expensive ingredients in it, or it's my high priority of fermentation, like tracking fermentation.
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I'm just starting to dive into lamination world.
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So anything that's laminated is a high risk product.
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Um, my sourdough is a high risk product.
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Anything that I'm like really relying on the function of the grains to hold things together, that's a high-risk product.
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And things like batter breads, like banana bread or zucchini bread or cakes to a degree, cookies, brownies, these are all more in my brain on the spectrum of a lower risk product.
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If I'm dealing with a flower that is unfamiliar or a flower that I know has less of that structural integrity for the for the formula, then I'll go ahead and start it in a low-risk product and get to know it there.
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Soft whites, I think they're not going to be as robust and as building of that scaffolding that you're wanting.
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Sure.
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And maybe pop it in, do something with it, like scald it, toast it, to throw into at a low percent in your sourdough to start to get to know it a little better in these other modalities.
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Absolutely.
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A scald is always my go-to.
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I love an eincorn scald, I love a buckwheat scald, I love a rye scald because I don't have as much experience putting those in as fresh flowers in my sourdough.
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So when I scald them, the risk becomes much lower.
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So do you think on that note, do you think that something like a soft wheat, whatever the name is that the person is hearing from their miller or their farmer, that could also maybe potentially be the fun flower in your sourdough mix?
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Yeah, okay, cool.
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Yeah, and when you're dealing with a fun flower too, why not just get it whole, milled whole every time?
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Sure.
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If you're using it in such a small percentage, or depending on, I guess, what you're using it in, um or what how you want that product to come out.
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Like why not just cut out the sifting middleman and make it whole grain every time?
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Especially scald, because the scald, it's oh, the scald is great.
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Yep.
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It's kind of my go-to at this point.
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I use it almost every bake day now, and I really love it because it just it's a great solution to that problem and it helps me use a lot more variety of grains.
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I'm starting to do some with oats and other fun things.
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Um, but here's my question for can I ask your question?
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Yeah, of course.
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Oh my gosh, you're the first one to ask me a question back.
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Thank you.
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Can't be the first one.
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Come on.
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No, I think you are.
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Um Are you using your scald like in your formula?
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Because every baker and their brother has their own reinvention of the wheel of their spreadsheets or whatever.
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Sure.
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Um, in your formula, are you putting in your scald as an inclusion or are you putting in your scald as a portion of the water and the flour that's going in there as well?
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So I was just having this conversation in the Rackmaster group and also with Maurizio because he has made these beautiful formulas, but I wasn't sure exactly where to put it.
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So initially I was doing it as an inclusion, but the more I thought about it, the more I felt like that wasn't the right way to handle it.
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Because in my mind, I was like, okay, the flowers bound to the water.
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So it is kind of like an inclusion.
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It's not the same as water and flour, but kind of is.
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It sort of like goes into either category.
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So the way that I'm doing it now is so I have instead of water one and water two, I have waters one, two, and three.
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Okay.
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And water three is my scald water.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:32.159
And yeah.
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And then my my scald flour is part of my total formula.
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Uh up there, probably listed as like the third or fourth hour, or however many I have in that blend for that day, it's listed over there.
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And then so my hydration will appear to be like 95, right?
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Because my total formula is taking all of that into consideration.
00:16:52.559 --> 00:17:02.559
But then when I go into my final mix formula, which is the right side of the column, I can see the true hydration of the dough without the scald.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.440
So it'll be somewhere like let's call it 80.
00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:11.519
That tends to be a really safe place for a loaf with a scald or a dough with a scald, somewhere around 80.
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So the true hydration, I guess if we're counting all of the parts closer to 90, but in my final mix, I can actually see and manipulate waters one and two there.
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Does that make sense?
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:23.119
Yeah, totally.
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Well, also because the scald, like that water is taken, right?
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Right.
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That's what you're saying.
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It's like this is like claimed, this isn't going in to rehydrate any other dry pieces.
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This has homogenized into one.
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And if anyone is hearing this and they want to start working with a scald, somewhere between 20 and 30 percent total total weight of the scald compared to the total flour is a really good place to start.
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But what I found is that even though the water is bound to the flour, it's not really going, it's not free water.
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I found that when the hydration is too high, at the bottom of the loaf, you'll get kind of like a wet line, like a gummy line in any porridge bread.
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So the solution to that would not to change anything about the scald, not reduce the amount, don't reduce it till 15 or 10 or whatever.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.720
The solution is to reduce waters one and two.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.200
So the initial mix and the bassinage.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:25.519
Yeah, even like maybe five percent and see if you can be rid of that bottom wet line.
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:31.359
I think it's really hard to avoid it completely, just because that's just how a porridge bread tends to behave.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:39.599
But I've pretty much been able to eliminate it by dropping the original hydration without the skull, just yeah, maybe five percent.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.640
Yeah, that does help a lot.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.279
If anyone wants to try it and they're kind of struggling, that would be my thought.
00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:44.799
First and bake it really hard.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:45.920
Yeah, totally.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:46.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:47.519
Totally.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:49.680
And then are you using in your scald?
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Are you using half of the weight is flour, half of the weight is water?
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.359
And then sure, that's a good question.
00:18:55.599 --> 00:19:04.880
So I initially I so for my buckwheat, for example, I do for every one part of buckwheat, I have three parts of water.
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:05.680
Gotcha.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.880
Because the buckwheat's very thirsty, it needs a lot of that.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:14.559
But for ironcorn, which is a little bit more loose, I think it's one to one point five.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.279
So it's very, it's almost one to one, it's a little bit more.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:18.880
I think it's one to one and a half.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.400
And even that's like the same texture as the buckwheat one.
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:28.079
So I just go for like a final texture where I feel like all of that water is really bound into the flour.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.160
So it kind of depends on how fresh was it milled, like that kind of thing.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.640
But it it did take a little bit of experimenting.
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:42.559
Um, but for for that, if if someone wants to try buckwheat one to three, and if they want to try iron corn, they can start with like about one to one and a half.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:43.200
Mm-hmm.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.759
Nice.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:49.920
Yeah, the way that the flour takes up the water too, it's kind of another part of choosing your flour.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:50.480
Yeah.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:50.960
Right.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:20:04.400
And there's like all these the there are all these like moments in your mix or in your plan, your baking plan, that kind of forces you to define what am I what do I want out of this dough or this bread.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.279
Yeah.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:13.119
And I I'm not sure when you add your scald, so maybe we differentiate here, but let's I'll just tell you mine and then you can tell me yours.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:30.880
But I I make sure that my uh autolase is a little bit dry and I get really strong gluten development first, and then after the autolase, I add my lavan, and then I add my scald.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:31.359
Yeah.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:51.839
So I want to make sure that the dough has a really strong gluten development before I add in the scald, and then I I choose how much bassinage water because based off of the behavior and the fluidity, I guess, of the dough, I might hold back some bassinage or add more or whatever, but I I like to add it after good gluten development and before my bassinage.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:54.079
Yeah, I mean that's very smart.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.480
You can always add, you can't take away, right?
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.039
Exactly.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:57.359
Yeah.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.559
So like, and that's true with water, that's true with time.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:01.920
Anything.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:02.640
Anything.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:09.119
Um, you can always add more, but you can hard very rarely can you subtract out of what's been put in your bowl.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:30.319
Um and having a strong, drier, upfront mix is a great place to start, I think, too, just because you've created a very strong and reliable scaffolding to be able to hold something that's gonna probably start to disrupt things and like lubricate.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:30.880
Exactly.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:41.839
Once again, just like any yeah, yeah, just any inclusion will disrupt the gluten development of the dough, whether it's olives or a scald or almonds or whatever.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.079
I think these are really helpful things for people.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.880
So if they go out to their miller and they ask, what are you growing?
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.920
What do you have?
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.039
Okay, I've got hard red and I've got buckwheat.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.440
Great.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.839
Throw in 20 to 50 percent of the hard red into your dough and make a scald with the buckwheat, or like you said, throw it into a cup.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
Cookie, toast it.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.640
Yeah, be creative.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:09.039
Don't not don't skip buying the buckwheat or the rye or whatever because it's not a hard grain.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.680
Think of a different way to use it so that you can support your local farmers and what they're growing.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:14.559
I think is what we're saying.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:24.160
And from the farmer's perspective, like buckwheat is one of the best plants for or grain for it's not a grain, it's a cereal.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.519
It's a pseudo-cereal.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:26.000
Sure.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.559
Easiest for for Keith to grow.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:38.559
Or for say rye and buckwheat are his favorite to grow because they just they just behave so they're just well behaved in the in the fields and easier to harvest.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.440
And yeah.
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:57.119
And I believe that rye is used for a cover crop, meaning that when a farm takes out, let's say they're growing sweet potatoes and they remove the sweet potatoes, they will then grow rye during the off season, and the rye will put nutrients back into the soil.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:05.279
So the next time they go to grow the sweet potato, those nutrients are back into the soil for the next batch of sweet potatoes.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.960
And so that rye can then also be used to bake with.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:22.720
So it's important to think about it that way of how we're it's part of like a bigger system of moving parts, and we as the bakers can really help out farmers by utilizing something that they kind of have to grow anyway as a cover crop.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:36.000
Well, what's great about thinking about it in these terms is it starts to widen the net that and invite bakers into the ecosystem of the agricultural practice, right?
00:23:36.480 --> 00:24:00.960
One of the things I love about the Bread Lab and WSU is how kind of full circle they bring everything, and encouraging people to not just bakers to be like, Well, this is what you get and this is what you have to learn how to use, but encouraging the conversation of them talking to the farmers and the farmers selling to the bakers and then saying, Well, the bakers aren't buying this because they can't use it for why.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:10.720
And then going back to the breeders and saying, We need it to not lodge, we need it to have a higher protein content, protein content, we need it, you know.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:17.279
So being able to kind of like step into that full cycle ecosystem is so important.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.359
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:24.480
And to have an open mind, don't demand something specific from a farmer or a miller.
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:33.359
See what's growing naturally and effectively in your area and find a way to use it, whether that's toasted, scalded, in a cookie, whatever.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:40.319
That's our job as the baker to support the farmer in that way and not be stubborn and say, oh, you don't have a hard red at 12.5%.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.160
Like I'm not buying from you.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:42.559
Right.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:43.440
Um Exactly.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:50.559
Because then you start to run the risk of monocropping at such a small scale that that runs into its own problems.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:59.440
So being able to continue with the variety of ingredients that you're using inside the flower portion is.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:10.240
Balin, do you think do you think that this requires us as bakers to release the expectation of the images that we see on social media for a wild open crumb bread?
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:15.200
I think it I mean, I want to say yes and I want to say no.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:24.319
Only because I think that it's I think that the wild open crumb on social media should not be the only thing people are chasing.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:43.759
And it's funny, I was just re-listening to, I think it was Josh's episode recently, or maybe you made a post about it or something, and just the what he says about distancing yourself from the expectation you see on a screen is so important.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.480
Um for everything, not just baking.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:47.839
Yeah, yeah, for everything.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.440
I mean, you could say that for anything, you know.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.319
For sure.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:50.799
Yeah.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:26:01.839
You know, I think I think there are ways to get close to that if you if that's really the hill you want to die on, but recognize that you're cutting yourself off from a lot of options.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.920
You're denying yourself a lot of flavor, a lot of nutrients.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:12.079
You're denying it being a part of a like grander ecological system that you're inside.
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.640
Um and that why deny yourself options?
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:19.279
Kind of is, I guess, the way that I think about it.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.720
And maybe that's foolish, but I no, I I agree.
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:31.119
And I think some people will hear this and they might take it personally, and it's no like whatever you enjoy baking, please continue, go off.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:56.799
But if it's in your heart to start exploring more options, different options you want to even just at a small scale start thinking about milling at home or or supporting a local farmer, there, as you're saying, there are so many options, but they do require some flexibility when it comes to what is available and how your crumb may look when you start incorporating some of these things.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:04.400
I personally think, and I know that you do too, that you can make an insanely gorgeous loaf of bread with 100% whole wheat, but it just does it takes some practice.
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:24.559
It takes practice, and I think you're a great example of being able to still hold on to like a beautiful open crumb that has a feathery, custardy interior while still being able to utilize what's available to you through your local mills and your local farms and the people you know in your community.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:35.200
There's ever at every moment of your at every point in your mix, there's so many ways to manipulate that ingredient to render different results.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:43.680
And until you've exhausted those ways, which they're always coming up as new ways and new ways, like who knows what you can make with that.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:47.599
So that's where the curiosity comes in, you know.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:10.960
Yeah, and to your point of not always expecting to achieve or create what you see on social media and removing yourself from that, if people are seeing your breads or my breads, what they aren't seeing, at least for me, I can only speak for myself, is just like a lot of failures, a lot of tears, like a lot of frustration because I failed and I I didn't use it the right way.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.559
I made the wrong choice and I had to refund orders or whatever.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:15.039
Sure.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.359
That's part of it and it's painful.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:31.039
But once you get over that and you learn, you learn the lessons and you learn how to manipulate these flowers and you learn what to look for and how to read the dough and how to score differently to save a bake or whatever, it's so much easier.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:34.160
But it is, it's a it's growing pains, right?
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:41.440
And I think I love this quote from Julia Childs where she's like, Americans, they're so afraid to fail.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.359
So they never try.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:50.079
Okay, first of all, first of all, that is an amazing Julia Childs impersonation.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:52.480
That was fantastic.
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:54.400
Yeah, I love that.
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.880
But what what a wise woman.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.400
Yeah, yeah, for real.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:05.440
And I mean, if you're gonna tie in baking to mirror so many other things in just the human experience, it's true.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:09.519
The unknown is risky and uh who knows what will happen.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:13.039
But the cool thing is is you're just making red, so it's gonna be okay.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.160
It's gonna be fine.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.160
It's gonna be time.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:20.880
And if you have the privilege of having that time, like then why not try?
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.000
Right.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:29.759
Can we move on to extraction rates and how we should name them or ask for them?
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.759
Because I recently just went through a miscommunication and it was no one's fault.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:42.079
It was just for a lack of common definitions of these things in America.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.480
And it can cause some big misunderstandings.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:57.839
And when we're asking for whole wheat or we're asking for sifted flour, we might not call it the same thing that the miller is calling it.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:07.359
So it's important to know all the ways that we could possibly call it something and make sure that when we're asking for something, we know what we're getting and what that means.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:07.920
Yeah.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:14.559
So when we talk about all the berries go into the mill, all of the flour comes out.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:17.200
Everything that goes in is what comes out.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.440
Nothing has been sifted, put anywhere else, taken for anything.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:25.200
The whole berry goes in, the whole berry comes out as flour.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:28.240
That could be called a few different things here.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:29.519
Whole wheat.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.000
We only know it as a hundred percent extraction.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:33.359
Right, right.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:35.680
But people do call it whole wheat.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:36.160
Yeah.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:42.240
But the pr I think the I don't know what I don't want to say it's correct because I don't even know if that's fair.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:42.480
Sure.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:48.720
But I think that from the miller's vocabulary, it would be called full extraction, right?
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.559
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's I would definitely call it full extraction.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.079
Yeah, 100% extraction, full extraction.
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:57.119
Yeah.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:58.960
Okay, 100% extraction.
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:00.799
10 pounds is coming out.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:01.519
Right.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:06.400
10 pounds goes in, 10 pounds goes out, 100% extraction or full extraction.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.119
It could also be identified as whole wheat.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.960
I don't agree with that term, but you someone might call it that.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.759
So if you go to your miller and you say, Do you have whole wheat?
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:26.720
Make sure you if you mean the whole berry, you need to say 100% extraction, full extraction, all the berry goes in, everything comes out.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:27.839
Right?
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:28.480
Yep.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:28.880
Yep.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:34.400
Yeah, I mean the whole wheat piece, I think I would more call it whole grain.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.480
Um specifically if it's like a stone mill you're working with.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:39.200
Sure.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:50.640
Um, and I guess that's the only caveat I would put on there is like if it's a stone mill you're working with and you're asking for full extraction, 100% extraction, it's whole grain.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.480
Um yeah.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.079
Let's let's encourage our listeners to be seeking out stone ground flour.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:05.920
Roller milled is obviously an option, but it's not I hope that first people look for local stone gro stone mills.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:06.640
Sure.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.240
Yeah, if that's what's available to you.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.640
If that's not what's available to you, then correctly.
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.799
Don't ship it, you know, 300 miles away, you know, or whatever.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.960
Please don't ship flour across the country if you can't find something local.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:19.599
Yeah.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.079
Uh unless it's just, you know, for fun.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.640
But like if you're running a huge bakery, you're right.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.480
Use what's what's growing around you.
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:48.160
Um because for roller milled, I think what happens is, and I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that you know, there it's all separated out along different steps of the process, and then it's put back together at the end, which is different than how the stone mill, and we talked about this in our our last chat, it's different than how the stone mill processes the grain.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:58.559
I've personally noticed that the flower is a little bit more oily in a good way when it's stone milled, and and just the integrity of the grain is very beautiful.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:03.440
So full extraction, 100% extraction, whole wheat, whole grain.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:12.240
Let's just make sure that when everyone's out in the world, when you're asking for something, make sure you know what you're getting if you want the whole berry in your bag.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:13.039
Yeah.
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:20.160
Then we move on to sifted high extraction flowers.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:28.799
And someone might go out and they'll see like a T85, a T80, a T75, T55, all purpose, right?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:35.039
That's where things start to become confusing because there's the wild, wild west out here, people are calling everything all kinds of things.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.480
So we need to understand what is in our bag.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.839
So can you tell us what a high extraction flour is?
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:53.039
So a high extraction flour is when you've ex when you've extracted a high amount of the food and put that in your bag.
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.559
That can be anywhere from 80% to 100%.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.880
Like a 100% extraction is a high extraction flour.
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:03.519
Correct.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:03.920
Right?
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:04.240
Yeah.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.639
But you have like a really um big range there.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:25.039
Um so like we have a high extraction flour that is lightly sifted, that's like a 95-90% extraction, meaning we put 10 pounds in the in the hopper and nine pounds comes out.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:32.960
So we're losing like 10% of the food off into the brand bucket.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.639
And so what's being sifted off are sharp bran particles.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.719
Yeah, they're just like really big, fat, chunky brand particles.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.000
Yep.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:51.360
So high extraction, typically we're talking 80, 85, 90, 95 high extraction flowers.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:52.400
Okay.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:00.159
Those might also be called something like a T80 or a T eighty five kind of thing.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:08.159
Yeah, but I don't want people to get confused about like the T system, like T80 does not mean 80% extraction.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:08.960
Correct.
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:09.440
Yeah.
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:36.239
So that and that's where I start to like kind of lose people when I'm talking about this, because it's like, yeah, it is, it is, you know, kind of a brain fuggler because you're kind of like, well, there are these numbers and they should match up, but the T system is measuring ash content where like the extraction rate is measuring what's coming into the food bucket that's going into your bowl, that's going into your mix.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.679
And that just feels to me like a very intuitive way to measure things.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.559
Um yeah.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:36:03.199
So if someone wants to start using a high extraction base flour instead of their all-purpose flour, they should ask their miller for something that is 80 to 100% extraction.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:09.360
And that could be called other things, but the question to ask the miller would be what is the extraction rate?
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.360
Yeah, what is the extraction rate?
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:18.960
Um that is how I talk to people when I'm answering emails, is when they ask for a T system.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.519
I'm like, something that's comparable is this extraction rate, I think.
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:26.960
But I'm not an expert on that piece of it at all.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:31.280
So what I can say is this is considered high extraction, you know.
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:31.920
Okay.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:34.960
And why would a person choose this type of flour?
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:36.480
High extraction.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.039
Yeah.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:52.960
Um, well, you are lightly sifted, so you're gonna be avoiding more of those chunkier bran pieces that can, if not hydrated well, depending on what you're gonna use it in, can disrupt your gluten development.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.039
And it's gonna be a kind of finer, a finer flour.
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:04.800
You're still gonna have some of the bran in there, depending on how well it's been milled.
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:11.760
So you're still going to have a lot of nutrients locked in there, specifically coming from the stone mill.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:12.880
I think.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.599
So hyper dog's barking now.
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:16.239
Is that your dog's?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:17.760
It's your dog, now it's my dog.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:19.920
Awesome.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.199
Listeners are gonna know all the dog barks by the end of this podcast.
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.320
That's great.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:34.159
But yeah, I would say the reason why you would want high extraction is maybe it's easier for you to work with, depending on what your hydration level is, it's gonna be easier for you to work with.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:40.559
You're gonna have more nutrients in your bread, more of those like folic acids, more of those minerals.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:52.239
All the pieces that allow our bodies to kind of use and break down the wheat grain is best digested as a whole.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:52.880
Yeah.
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.719
The plant itself has everything that you need to eat the plant.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:00.000
Nature is perfect, you know.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:06.159
And I think if someone's looking for a more loft, a little bit more open crumb that could be a good fit for them.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:18.239
And that again is like taking away those like heavier, sharper pieces of bran is going to contribute to having a more lofty, more silky, um, yeah, more fun.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:19.599
I agree completely.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.199
Can I ask you another question?
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:22.239
Yeah, please.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:30.079
When you are designing a formula or designing a product, yeah, how like where do you start with that?
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.360
Are you defining what you want to use or are you defining what you want to eat?
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.159
Mm-hmm.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.320
So this is something that I've been thinking about a lot more recently.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:53.360
And if anyone follows me on Instagram at Matriarch Bread, they may have seen that I just recently made an oat porridge loaf.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:04.480
And I really wanted to make a loaf that was everything in from the Levan to the inclusions to anything in there was completely local.
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:14.719
I have two things on my menu that I pretty much make every single week, which is the country dough or the whole wheat and the eincorn scald.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.000
Those are kind of in my brain two very different types of bread.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:23.119
But I felt like I was missing this third piece of the puzzle.
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:24.719
So I was like, how am I gonna do that?
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:30.159
So when I'm building a menu, I'm trying to think about what's missing from my flavor profiles already.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.599
And I was like a sweeter, lighter loaf.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.960
So I knew that I wanted a high extraction flour, and I got it off the is it pronounced Astera?
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.239
Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:46.960
I know what you're talking about.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.000
The the mill.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:53.199
And so it makes a really super fine flour that's just a little sifted.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.360
So I knew that it would behave like a a strong white flour.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:03.440
And I wanted that as my base, and then I knew that I wanted local oats and local honey.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:05.920
So I I sought those things out.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:12.960
I didn't want to just buy oats from the grocery store, I wanted it to be local, and I was like, well, if I can't find local oats and I won't make it, I'll I'll figure something else.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.559
I'll do like a barley or whatever.
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:14.960
Yeah.
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.639
Found the local oats, found the local honey, and started experimenting with that.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:34.960
So I I thought about this after a conversation with, I won't give it away because I like the interviews to be a surprise, but an a conversation that I had with a different baker, and she was telling me when she didn't have access to local stone milled flour yet, she started using other grains that were growing around her instead.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.239
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna think outside the box a little bit.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:38.639
Yeah.
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.920
And I'm really interested in biodiversity.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.519
I'm interested in using the things that might otherwise not really get a lot of love.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:55.360
And just starting to be more creative because I feel like people now that things are catching on, so there's a lot of like rinse and repeat.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:55.599
Yeah.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:58.880
And I think it's so important to be like, okay, what's next?
00:40:59.039 --> 00:40:59.840
Okay, what's next?
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:00.719
What's growing?
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.079
What are the new ideas?
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:06.320
How can we keep pushing this so that there's something running down the line?
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:10.239
Yeah, where you get to also evolve with the harvest season too.
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.880
Exactly.
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:11.119
Yeah.
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:15.199
And help other people think outside of the box because we're all so busy.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:27.519
Sometimes we just get stuck in doing the same kinds of things over and over, and that can feel really safe and it's still important, but also Mark really is a good, I guess, kind of like if the right term is like catfish.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:32.400
I don't mean that in a negative way, but someone who's like nipping away at me to keep thinking, right?
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:36.239
Thinking about how I can use more and and and try new things.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.280
And so for me, that's how I start thinking about a formula.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:41.360
I'm like, what's missing from my menu?
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:43.119
What can I get?
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:44.559
And how can I use it?
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.320
Can I turn it into a porridge?
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.119
What's the texture of the loaf that I want it to be?
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:50.960
What parts of it do I want you to taste?
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:56.159
If I'm making a honey oat, I can't use a super strong grain flavor because then you won't taste the honey in the oats.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.480
So it's kind of like that when I'm thinking about something.
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:00.960
If it's whole grain, I want the whole grain to be in your face.
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:01.840
That's all you're gonna taste.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.039
There's gonna be rye, there's gonna be hard red, there's gonna be hard white.
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.599
Uh for country, it's like a balance of the two.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:16.559
For the eincorn, um, I'm using a lot of it so that you can really taste that flower in there and the texture and everything that it brings to the table.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.719
I'm not trying to hide anything, you know what I mean?
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:19.360
Yeah, sure.
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:34.320
Yeah, and I think that's a perfect, uh, a beautiful example of like where people would want to start when when figuring out what kind of flower they want, like being able to define what do I want out of this for yourself.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:39.440
Like we're sure you live in the United States, like everything is available to us.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:43:04.960
So if like your focus is around hyperlocal, if your focus is around supporting your farmers and supporting your local craftsmen and your makers of whatever it is, like that should be at the forefront, and then being able to then go from there and say, Okay, well, I can like you were saying before, use this buckwheat in a scald or in a cookie or in a biscot, like whatever.
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:06.960
Yeah.
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:07.679
Yeah.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:08.559
What about you?
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.079
Is that is that kind of how you start to think about building a formula?
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.039
Yeah, I start to think about what I guess I start with what's around me.
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:19.119
That's what I start with.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:27.920
I see, I I look at what ingredients I have that's available and in abundance, and then I think, what can I use this in?
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:29.360
How can I use this?
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.360
Um I just love you, Baylin.
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.960
I mean, I think I have a lot of like privilege with like what we can make too.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:48.320
So because we have a really, really small menu that I've kept small for a reason so that we can like expound on it rather than like you are preaching to the choir.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.679
A small menu is the way.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.320
It's the way.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.000
It is the way.
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:59.039
We do not need to be jack of all trades, master of none, make three things, make them well, yeah, be done with it.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.519
Yep.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.559
Hundred percent.
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:01.280
I'm with you there.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.880
A hundred percent extraction there.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:13.760
Let's give our let's wrap up this combo because I would love to have you on regularly for these little chit chats just because I I so enjoy you and I learned so much from you.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:14.960
I'd enjoy you too.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:15.599
This is so fun.
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:24.559
I love being able to talk to another like powerful strong woman baker person that is just like let's talk about flour, you know.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:25.119
Yeah.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:37.519
Can we let's wrap up this conversation by summarizing the questions that you would ask your miller when you're searching for a new flour to add to your bread?
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:45.280
Let's let in this scenario, you currently work with only white flour, all purpose, or bread flour, and you're ready to make some changes.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.559
Where do you start?
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:47.840
What questions do you ask?
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:48.960
Yeah.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:54.639
I would start with um, what other flowers do you offer?
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:58.960
What's available to me through my miller or through my distributor?
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.920
Um, and then from there, where are these uh being grown?
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:04.960
Sure.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.679
How yeah, how are these being grown?
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.079
And then I would say, at what extraction rate can I get these?
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.280
What's my options of extraction rate?
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.239
And what is the specs?
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.159
Can I get a spec sheet?
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:20.880
Yes.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:28.800
And Balin, last thing before we say goodbye, because I think this is an important part in a conversation I recently had.
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:32.239
Will this flower cost more?
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.840
I mean, that's that is a huge part of it.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:41.280
And that would be my next question is what is the price point on each of these things?
00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:48.239
And I will say, as someone who's spending a lot of money on flour, when I get my flower bill, I'm like, okay, that's real.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:50.880
An extra dollar per loaf pretty much takes care of it.
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:51.440
Yeah.
00:45:52.239 --> 00:46:02.320
It's not and depending on what your yield is, it could be less than that, you know, depending on what your setup is, um, how how much production you're doing a week.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.320
But flour is important.
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:10.400
And I think that's the other piece that I would ask people to consider is that flour is important.
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.199
It's a hundred percent of your formula.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:14.719
Exactly.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:17.119
It's this is it's literally flour.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.239
That's the whole story.
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:19.119
This is the story.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:21.039
What what story are you telling?
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:21.599
Right.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:22.320
Right.
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:26.079
And and what do you want to what story do you want to tell people?
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:28.079
Is the other piece too.
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:29.039
That's right.
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:34.159
About yourself, about where you live, about what you care about, because it is, it's a love letter to your community.
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:34.880
Absolutely.
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.320
I 100% agree.
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:43.440
This was such a great chit chat, and I know it's going to be so helpful, and the listeners are just gonna eat it up.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:47.360
I'm gonna end the conversation for us, but we can chit-chat for just a couple more minutes.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:49.199
Okay, so bye, Balin.
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:50.320
Bye, guys.
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.559
Thank you again, Balin, for joining us back on the podcast.
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:59.599
It's such a joy every time we get to have a conversation because it's just so fun.
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:08.800
We get to talk about all the things that we're both really interested in, and I always learn so much from you every time we connect, and I know that our listeners will too.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.039
So if you haven't had a chance to check out Balin's Instagram, she's at the Dusted Stone and she works at Chimmacum Granary up in Washington.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:34.400
I will make sure that I add links to everything in my show notes so that you can follow her and you can follow the granary and see what classes they're offering and find your way over there for a class because that's definitely high on my priority list for 2027.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.239
Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy Friday to listen to this podcast.
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:48.559
If you enjoyed this episode, if you could pop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review, it really helps the podcast grow.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:52.800
It gives us opportunities for potentially having sponsors in the future.
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:03.920
As you know, right now I record, produce, distribute, do all of those things on my own, and I've been really enjoying it, but it does come at a cost.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:13.360
So any little sharing on your stories or with your friends, it really helps me grow, it helps the podcast grow, it helps us get a much bigger reach.
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.960
So anytime I see that it just really fills my heart all the way to the brim.
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:23.039
So thank you for continuing to do that for us and just know that it's so, so appreciated.
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.480
I will be back next week with an interviews episode.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:31.360
I'm really excited for this one because it's a highly anticipated and highly requested guest.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:37.360
And then the following week we'll get back to a lessons episode where we'll dive a little bit deeper into PH.
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.239
So I will talk to all of you next week.
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:42.079
Bye friends.
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.440
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.599
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:48:55.760 --> 00:49:03.280
I'm Allie White, and as always, happy faking and long live real bread.
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.839
Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:07.759
It's Friday, and we have a bonus episode today.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:12.640
I'm going to call this part two to the last episode, the last lessons episode.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:21.039
And this portion, the second portion, is actually going to be kind of a combo between lessons and interview with Balin from Chimicum Grainery.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:34.960
She was already on the podcast early on, and we had such a great conversation, and she really was generous and wanted to come back on and talk about different types of grain, grain varieties, extraction rates, and how we can all speak the same language.
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:46.159
And when I started the Saving Bread podcast, a huge part of my motivation was putting myself back in my own shoes when I first started baking, and I took a class about whole grain, and it was a wonderful class.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:52.079
I learned so much, but I also felt I like I didn't understand some of the things that were being said.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:01:00.000
And I pretended like I did, but I really didn't know, and I I didn't have the uh the bravery to ask enough questions at that time.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:10.159
And I really want everyone to feel like we can all come sit at the same table, we can speak the same language, we can talk about things in a way that everyone understands.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:11.920
That feels really respectful.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.519
There's no gatekeeping, there's no ego, there's none of that.
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.799
It's just a friendly conversation where we all help each other learn.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:22.239
And that really was the energy and the vibe that I wanted to create here.
00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.239
And really making sure we all feel welcome and we all feel like we know what's going on.
00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:29.840
So I've been slowly working my way through these lessons episodes.
00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:38.079
And when it comes to grain, I just felt like I really needed to reach out to someone else to talk about this.
00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:45.439
Because while I work with a lot of whole grain, I wouldn't consider myself an expert in milling or extraction rates or anything like that.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:52.799
I'm very good at using whole grain when I receive it because I feel like I have a good relationship with my methods and my flower.
00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:59.840
But I I'm really glad that Balin wanted to come back on and talk with us because she's such an expert and the way that she thinks about it is so beautiful.
00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:03.120
And I just love her energy and her vibe, and it's so welcoming and warm.
00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:24.400
So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation between Balin and I and that you learn something new and you feel excited to go out into the world and support your local miller and start incorporating these whole grains into your baking because that's really what it's all about supporting the people around us who are working with their hands, who are just trying so hard to keep this alive.
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:29.840
And so we should reward that by learning how to use what they're growing and putting it into our bakes.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.319
So again, I I hope you just love this chit chat between me and Baylin.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.360
I'm Allie White, and this is Saving Bread.
00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:55.680
So it's very fun.
00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:57.599
Yeah, thanks for having me back again.
00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:03.039
I love everything that is getting put out there that you're putting out in on the pod.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:04.319
So it's been fun.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.400
Your necklace is really cool.
00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:07.599
I just noticed it right now.
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:08.800
Okay, thanks.
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:10.319
I love, I love it.
00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:11.120
You're always so cool.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:11.439
Okay.
00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:12.879
Heart locket.
00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:13.759
Yes.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.759
Is there a picture inside of the locket?
00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:17.360
Uh, not yet.
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:18.000
Okay.
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:19.360
TBD.
00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:20.240
We're still deciding.
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:20.479
Yeah.
00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:25.120
Maybe it'll be just a little thing of grain, just one smaller grain piece.
00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:25.919
There you go.
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:26.479
In there.
00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:26.960
Perfect.
00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:29.439
Speaking of, that's what we're gonna talk about today.
00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:36.960
We're going to talk about flower selection, maybe talk about a few different varieties of flower and get into that chit-chat a bit.
00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.080
So, how would you like to start this conversation, Balin?
00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:50.719
Yeah, well, I think that it's really easy to um kind of get overwhelmed with how much different variety is out there in terms of grain.
00:03:51.039 --> 00:04:04.319
And I think it's important for people to choose to have like a little bit of um definition around what the grain is going to do to your bake and in terms of like flavor profile and functionality.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.680
Um, and so to I guess start there.
00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:08.639
Yeah.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.719
I think that what you're saying, um, oh, you know what?
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:14.560
Let me turn off my notifications.
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:16.720
Someone's texting me about vanilla.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:21.120
She makes vanilla in large batches, and I was like, give me some of that vanilla extract.
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:34.879
I think that when people are first starting out, and even if they've been baking for a long time, they might not know which, let's say they want to swap out 20, 50, even 100% of the flour that they're using for a whole grain.
00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:52.399
And they go out and they start shopping and they see things like um Joaquin Oro, uh, Edison, Sonora, Eincorn, Spelt, Um, Yakora Rojo, or they'll see hard red, soft red, hard white, soft white.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.199
And they don't it there's it's overwhelming.
00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:03.360
And so when there's two coming out now, it's just like gaining so much momentum and traction that it's like, where do you even start?
00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:06.079
Yeah, and so I think it can feel overwhelming.
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:12.079
And so I would love for us to be able to give our listeners an idea of what questions they should ask.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:18.000
So when they see a name of something, they can say, Is this a hard red wheat?
00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:19.439
What is the protein?
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.040
and start to understand how some of these things function.
00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:31.199
So why don't we start with what I think is kind of both of our area of uh special interests, which would be bread.
00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:39.439
So if we wanted to choose a wheat for bread, what do you think some of those options would be?
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:54.720
Let's take the fancy names out of it and just pare it down, dial it down into what types of grain work well if you wanted to suddenly swap out 20% of your white red flour for a whole grain.
00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:59.839
Yeah, I would be looking for like a hard red spring to swap out.
00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:02.399
That's gonna be for a whole grain.
00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:16.560
And then the other thing I I don't know if you really want to get into this quite yet or not, but one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is like how we define terms with like whole wheat versus whole grain.
00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:19.439
But we can talk about that now, we can talk about that later.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:24.959
But let's talk about let's I do want to talk about that because it's an issue that I just went through.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:35.199
And so I think it is very, very important to make sure that we're all speaking the same language, and if we're not sure, to confirm with the person that we're speaking the same language.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:35.519
Yeah.
00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.560
But let's start with let's start with what you just said.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.759
So hard, a hard red wheat.
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:44.800
What about a hard white wheat?
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:51.759
Yeah, I would do a hard white kind of like as an addition to a formula.
00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:57.199
Ours is a hard red and a hard white blend together.
00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.800
The hard white is gonna give you a little bit more extensibility.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:10.399
It's not like that super powerhouse structural flower if you're gonna be using it in terms of like a freeform loaf.
00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:28.800
And then having another fun flower in there as like just a little sprinkle, like a rye or a spelt or a buckwheat, or we have one up here salish blue that's a perennial that is a really great softer wheat, and it's got a really beautiful, kind of like nutty profile.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:42.160
Um let's say that we wanted to swap out anywhere from between 20 to 100% of our white bread flour for a for right now, let's call it a whole grain flour.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:48.639
What you're saying is first and foremost, a hard red berry.
00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.040
Option to pair it with a hard white.
00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:59.360
And then the fun flour, which could be spelt, buckwheat, rye.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:04.879
What percentage do you think a person could add in of a fun flour?
00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:15.839
Yeah, I would until you kind of really start to become more comfortable with how that flower works, whichever flour it is that you're choosing, I would start pretty low.
00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:17.920
I would go with 7 to 12%.
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:19.519
I would go really low.
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:32.960
Something enough to kind of like, depending on what the flower is, something enough to see it and be able to start to taste it a little bit, but nothing that's going to really profoundly affect your your the structure of your sourdough.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:57.440
If you're working with it and you are and you're wanting to take a little heavier risk and you're baking your loaf for your family or whatever, and you're working with it and you go to 20% that fun wheat, which is great, and you're messing with it and it's not coming together, put it in a pan and give it some give it some tangible structure so that it's not trying to hold itself up.
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:05.120
Yes, I think the the couple of caveats to that percentage for me would be eincorn and buckwheat.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:05.759
Sure.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:16.720
I would say for those ones, possibly like five percent, or what I like to do, and I'm sure you do too, and I've seen a lot of bakers do this as well, is use those ones in a scald.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:21.440
Yeah, so that it's bound, yeah, and then you can increase it to a lot higher.
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:23.279
Um, those are really great tips.
00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:29.039
Can we just uh dial it just back for one second between the hard red and the hard white?
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:38.960
Why would a person want to use other than extensibility, hard red and hard white, let's say they're going for a hundred percent whole grain.
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:48.159
I like to use both, but for me it's because the hard red tends to be quite tannic when it's at a hundred percent.
00:09:48.320 --> 00:10:03.759
So I like to offset that with the hard white, which is a little bit more mild, a little bit sweeter, but as you said, it's it's not as robust in like it's sometimes it it can not be as as robust in its gluten performance and its strength and its structure.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:08.080
Do you find yourself blending the two for those reasons or other reasons?
00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.360
I find blending them, yeah, for those reasons.
00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:23.919
Also um to kind of allow, I think I covered this on our episode before, but like to allow some familiarity in product with our customers too.
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:24.879
Oh, okay, yeah.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:31.759
So, so and when I was first starting to switch over to all whole grain, it was familiarity for myself.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:40.960
So, you know, it's not something that they're gonna buy and they're gonna look at and be like, Whoa, that's like really, really different from the the sourdough loaves I'm used to buying.
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:47.679
It lightens things up a little bit, it does definitely contribute to like cream a more creaminess.
00:10:47.840 --> 00:11:09.120
Like, yeah, I don't know if it's normal for hard whites to have kind of like a buttery or like more fatty kind of consistency to them, but that's what I found with the Edison and some of the hard whites that we've been using is that it is, yeah, it has like a it seems to have like a higher fat content or something.
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:21.600
I think the first question when someone is going out and shopping asking millers, farmers for a new grain, the first question they could ask is what type of wheat berry is this?
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:31.519
And the answer should be hard red or hard white if we're looking for something that we can use in a free form loaf, right?
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:33.039
Absolutely okay, cool.
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:33.519
Great.
00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.919
I think that's really helpful and and a tangible thing for someone who's kind of newer to this to hold on to.
00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.759
And from there, we have soft wheat.
00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:47.279
Right?
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:49.600
Soft white is quite popular.
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.200
Is there soft red?
00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:52.320
I'm sure there must be.
00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:53.440
I think so, yeah.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:57.759
I I don't hear about it as often someone's gonna be listening to this and be like, of course there is.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.279
And they're gonna send me a message.
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:00.559
Um please do.
00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:05.200
Um right, yeah.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:06.000
It happens.
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.720
So let's say we have some soft white sonora.
00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.679
I would say eincorn is a little bit in that category for me, or at least that's sort of where I place it.
00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.240
Um, although eincorn's its own special thing.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:31.919
So when someone is out shopping and they they contact a farmer or a miller and they say, Oh, I have a soft white wheat, where are you as the baker placing that soft white wheat?
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.039
Yeah, I would place that in a cookie.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:50.320
I would place that in uh what I would call kind of like when when you consider the baking menu in functionality and workability in a spectrum, I have like high-risk products and low risk products, right?
00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:58.720
My high-risk products are products that either have a ton of very expensive ingredients in it, or it's my high priority of fermentation, like tracking fermentation.
00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.120
I'm just starting to dive into lamination world.
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.759
So anything that's laminated is a high risk product.
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.399
Um, my sourdough is a high risk product.
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:15.679
Anything that I'm like really relying on the function of the grains to hold things together, that's a high-risk product.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:26.960
And things like batter breads, like banana bread or zucchini bread or cakes to a degree, cookies, brownies, these are all more in my brain on the spectrum of a lower risk product.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:43.120
If I'm dealing with a flower that is unfamiliar or a flower that I know has less of that structural integrity for the for the formula, then I'll go ahead and start it in a low-risk product and get to know it there.
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:51.039
Soft whites, I think they're not going to be as robust and as building of that scaffolding that you're wanting.
00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:51.440
Sure.
00:13:51.600 --> 00:14:02.559
And maybe pop it in, do something with it, like scald it, toast it, to throw into at a low percent in your sourdough to start to get to know it a little better in these other modalities.
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:03.519
Absolutely.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.759
A scald is always my go-to.
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:15.759
I love an eincorn scald, I love a buckwheat scald, I love a rye scald because I don't have as much experience putting those in as fresh flowers in my sourdough.
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.679
So when I scald them, the risk becomes much lower.
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:32.000
So do you think on that note, do you think that something like a soft wheat, whatever the name is that the person is hearing from their miller or their farmer, that could also maybe potentially be the fun flower in your sourdough mix?
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:33.039
Yeah, okay, cool.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:39.440
Yeah, and when you're dealing with a fun flower too, why not just get it whole, milled whole every time?
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:39.919
Sure.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:49.840
If you're using it in such a small percentage, or depending on, I guess, what you're using it in, um or what how you want that product to come out.
00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:56.720
Like why not just cut out the sifting middleman and make it whole grain every time?
00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.879
Especially scald, because the scald, it's oh, the scald is great.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:04.960
Yep.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:06.879
It's kind of my go-to at this point.
00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:15.360
I use it almost every bake day now, and I really love it because it just it's a great solution to that problem and it helps me use a lot more variety of grains.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.720
I'm starting to do some with oats and other fun things.
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.559
Um, but here's my question for can I ask your question?
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.360
Yeah, of course.
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.360
Oh my gosh, you're the first one to ask me a question back.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:28.159
Thank you.
00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:30.639
Can't be the first one.
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:31.120
Come on.
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:32.639
No, I think you are.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.200
Um Are you using your scald like in your formula?
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:43.360
Because every baker and their brother has their own reinvention of the wheel of their spreadsheets or whatever.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:43.840
Sure.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:52.000
Um, in your formula, are you putting in your scald as an inclusion or are you putting in your scald as a portion of the water and the flour that's going in there as well?
00:15:52.320 --> 00:16:01.840
So I was just having this conversation in the Rackmaster group and also with Maurizio because he has made these beautiful formulas, but I wasn't sure exactly where to put it.
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:09.600
So initially I was doing it as an inclusion, but the more I thought about it, the more I felt like that wasn't the right way to handle it.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:13.360
Because in my mind, I was like, okay, the flowers bound to the water.
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.600
So it is kind of like an inclusion.
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:19.519
It's not the same as water and flour, but kind of is.
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:21.600
It sort of like goes into either category.
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:28.559
So the way that I'm doing it now is so I have instead of water one and water two, I have waters one, two, and three.
00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:28.799
Okay.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:30.720
And water three is my scald water.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:32.159
And yeah.
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:38.000
And then my my scald flour is part of my total formula.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:43.919
Uh up there, probably listed as like the third or fourth hour, or however many I have in that blend for that day, it's listed over there.
00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:49.039
And then so my hydration will appear to be like 95, right?
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.320
Because my total formula is taking all of that into consideration.
00:16:52.559 --> 00:17:02.559
But then when I go into my final mix formula, which is the right side of the column, I can see the true hydration of the dough without the scald.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.440
So it'll be somewhere like let's call it 80.
00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:11.519
That tends to be a really safe place for a loaf with a scald or a dough with a scald, somewhere around 80.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:21.440
So the true hydration, I guess if we're counting all of the parts closer to 90, but in my final mix, I can actually see and manipulate waters one and two there.
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:22.319
Does that make sense?
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:23.119
Yeah, totally.
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:26.880
Well, also because the scald, like that water is taken, right?
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:27.279
Right.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:28.240
That's what you're saying.
00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:34.240
It's like this is like claimed, this isn't going in to rehydrate any other dry pieces.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.720
This has homogenized into one.
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:49.279
And if anyone is hearing this and they want to start working with a scald, somewhere between 20 and 30 percent total total weight of the scald compared to the total flour is a really good place to start.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:56.240
But what I found is that even though the water is bound to the flour, it's not really going, it's not free water.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:05.440
I found that when the hydration is too high, at the bottom of the loaf, you'll get kind of like a wet line, like a gummy line in any porridge bread.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:13.119
So the solution to that would not to change anything about the scald, not reduce the amount, don't reduce it till 15 or 10 or whatever.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.720
The solution is to reduce waters one and two.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.200
So the initial mix and the bassinage.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:25.519
Yeah, even like maybe five percent and see if you can be rid of that bottom wet line.
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:31.359
I think it's really hard to avoid it completely, just because that's just how a porridge bread tends to behave.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:39.599
But I've pretty much been able to eliminate it by dropping the original hydration without the skull, just yeah, maybe five percent.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.640
Yeah, that does help a lot.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.279
If anyone wants to try it and they're kind of struggling, that would be my thought.
00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:44.799
First and bake it really hard.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:45.920
Yeah, totally.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:46.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:47.519
Totally.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:49.680
And then are you using in your scald?
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.200
Are you using half of the weight is flour, half of the weight is water?
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.359
And then sure, that's a good question.
00:18:55.599 --> 00:19:04.880
So I initially I so for my buckwheat, for example, I do for every one part of buckwheat, I have three parts of water.
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:05.680
Gotcha.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.880
Because the buckwheat's very thirsty, it needs a lot of that.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:14.559
But for ironcorn, which is a little bit more loose, I think it's one to one point five.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.279
So it's very, it's almost one to one, it's a little bit more.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:18.880
I think it's one to one and a half.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.400
And even that's like the same texture as the buckwheat one.
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:28.079
So I just go for like a final texture where I feel like all of that water is really bound into the flour.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.160
So it kind of depends on how fresh was it milled, like that kind of thing.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.640
But it it did take a little bit of experimenting.
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:42.559
Um, but for for that, if if someone wants to try buckwheat one to three, and if they want to try iron corn, they can start with like about one to one and a half.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:43.200
Mm-hmm.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.759
Nice.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:49.920
Yeah, the way that the flour takes up the water too, it's kind of another part of choosing your flour.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:50.480
Yeah.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:50.960
Right.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:20:04.400
And there's like all these the there are all these like moments in your mix or in your plan, your baking plan, that kind of forces you to define what am I what do I want out of this dough or this bread.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.279
Yeah.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:13.119
And I I'm not sure when you add your scald, so maybe we differentiate here, but let's I'll just tell you mine and then you can tell me yours.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:30.880
But I I make sure that my uh autolase is a little bit dry and I get really strong gluten development first, and then after the autolase, I add my lavan, and then I add my scald.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:31.359
Yeah.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:51.839
So I want to make sure that the dough has a really strong gluten development before I add in the scald, and then I I choose how much bassinage water because based off of the behavior and the fluidity, I guess, of the dough, I might hold back some bassinage or add more or whatever, but I I like to add it after good gluten development and before my bassinage.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:54.079
Yeah, I mean that's very smart.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.480
You can always add, you can't take away, right?
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.039
Exactly.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:57.359
Yeah.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.559
So like, and that's true with water, that's true with time.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:01.920
Anything.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:02.640
Anything.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:09.119
Um, you can always add more, but you can hard very rarely can you subtract out of what's been put in your bowl.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:30.319
Um and having a strong, drier, upfront mix is a great place to start, I think, too, just because you've created a very strong and reliable scaffolding to be able to hold something that's gonna probably start to disrupt things and like lubricate.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:30.880
Exactly.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:41.839
Once again, just like any yeah, yeah, just any inclusion will disrupt the gluten development of the dough, whether it's olives or a scald or almonds or whatever.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.079
I think these are really helpful things for people.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.880
So if they go out to their miller and they ask, what are you growing?
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.920
What do you have?
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.039
Okay, I've got hard red and I've got buckwheat.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.440
Great.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.839
Throw in 20 to 50 percent of the hard red into your dough and make a scald with the buckwheat, or like you said, throw it into a cup.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
Cookie, toast it.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.640
Yeah, be creative.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:09.039
Don't not don't skip buying the buckwheat or the rye or whatever because it's not a hard grain.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.680
Think of a different way to use it so that you can support your local farmers and what they're growing.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:14.559
I think is what we're saying.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:24.160
And from the farmer's perspective, like buckwheat is one of the best plants for or grain for it's not a grain, it's a cereal.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.519
It's a pseudo-cereal.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:26.000
Sure.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.559
Easiest for for Keith to grow.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:38.559
Or for say rye and buckwheat are his favorite to grow because they just they just behave so they're just well behaved in the in the fields and easier to harvest.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.440
And yeah.
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:57.119
And I believe that rye is used for a cover crop, meaning that when a farm takes out, let's say they're growing sweet potatoes and they remove the sweet potatoes, they will then grow rye during the off season, and the rye will put nutrients back into the soil.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:05.279
So the next time they go to grow the sweet potato, those nutrients are back into the soil for the next batch of sweet potatoes.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.960
And so that rye can then also be used to bake with.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:22.720
So it's important to think about it that way of how we're it's part of like a bigger system of moving parts, and we as the bakers can really help out farmers by utilizing something that they kind of have to grow anyway as a cover crop.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:36.000
Well, what's great about thinking about it in these terms is it starts to widen the net that and invite bakers into the ecosystem of the agricultural practice, right?
00:23:36.480 --> 00:24:00.960
One of the things I love about the Bread Lab and WSU is how kind of full circle they bring everything, and encouraging people to not just bakers to be like, Well, this is what you get and this is what you have to learn how to use, but encouraging the conversation of them talking to the farmers and the farmers selling to the bakers and then saying, Well, the bakers aren't buying this because they can't use it for why.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:10.720
And then going back to the breeders and saying, We need it to not lodge, we need it to have a higher protein content, protein content, we need it, you know.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:17.279
So being able to kind of like step into that full cycle ecosystem is so important.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.359
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:24.480
And to have an open mind, don't demand something specific from a farmer or a miller.
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:33.359
See what's growing naturally and effectively in your area and find a way to use it, whether that's toasted, scalded, in a cookie, whatever.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:40.319
That's our job as the baker to support the farmer in that way and not be stubborn and say, oh, you don't have a hard red at 12.5%.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.160
Like I'm not buying from you.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:42.559
Right.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:43.440
Um Exactly.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:50.559
Because then you start to run the risk of monocropping at such a small scale that that runs into its own problems.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:59.440
So being able to continue with the variety of ingredients that you're using inside the flower portion is.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:10.240
Balin, do you think do you think that this requires us as bakers to release the expectation of the images that we see on social media for a wild open crumb bread?
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:15.200
I think it I mean, I want to say yes and I want to say no.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:24.319
Only because I think that it's I think that the wild open crumb on social media should not be the only thing people are chasing.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:43.759
And it's funny, I was just re-listening to, I think it was Josh's episode recently, or maybe you made a post about it or something, and just the what he says about distancing yourself from the expectation you see on a screen is so important.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.480
Um for everything, not just baking.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:47.839
Yeah, yeah, for everything.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.440
I mean, you could say that for anything, you know.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.319
For sure.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:50.799
Yeah.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:26:01.839
You know, I think I think there are ways to get close to that if you if that's really the hill you want to die on, but recognize that you're cutting yourself off from a lot of options.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.920
You're denying yourself a lot of flavor, a lot of nutrients.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:12.079
You're denying it being a part of a like grander ecological system that you're inside.
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.640
Um and that why deny yourself options?
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:19.279
Kind of is, I guess, the way that I think about it.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.720
And maybe that's foolish, but I no, I I agree.
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:31.119
And I think some people will hear this and they might take it personally, and it's no like whatever you enjoy baking, please continue, go off.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:56.799
But if it's in your heart to start exploring more options, different options you want to even just at a small scale start thinking about milling at home or or supporting a local farmer, there, as you're saying, there are so many options, but they do require some flexibility when it comes to what is available and how your crumb may look when you start incorporating some of these things.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:04.400
I personally think, and I know that you do too, that you can make an insanely gorgeous loaf of bread with 100% whole wheat, but it just does it takes some practice.
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:24.559
It takes practice, and I think you're a great example of being able to still hold on to like a beautiful open crumb that has a feathery, custardy interior while still being able to utilize what's available to you through your local mills and your local farms and the people you know in your community.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:35.200
There's ever at every moment of your at every point in your mix, there's so many ways to manipulate that ingredient to render different results.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:43.680
And until you've exhausted those ways, which they're always coming up as new ways and new ways, like who knows what you can make with that.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:47.599
So that's where the curiosity comes in, you know.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:10.960
Yeah, and to your point of not always expecting to achieve or create what you see on social media and removing yourself from that, if people are seeing your breads or my breads, what they aren't seeing, at least for me, I can only speak for myself, is just like a lot of failures, a lot of tears, like a lot of frustration because I failed and I I didn't use it the right way.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.559
I made the wrong choice and I had to refund orders or whatever.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:15.039
Sure.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.359
That's part of it and it's painful.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:31.039
But once you get over that and you learn, you learn the lessons and you learn how to manipulate these flowers and you learn what to look for and how to read the dough and how to score differently to save a bake or whatever, it's so much easier.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:34.160
But it is, it's a it's growing pains, right?
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:41.440
And I think I love this quote from Julia Childs where she's like, Americans, they're so afraid to fail.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.359
So they never try.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:50.079
Okay, first of all, first of all, that is an amazing Julia Childs impersonation.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:52.480
That was fantastic.
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:54.400
Yeah, I love that.
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.880
But what what a wise woman.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.400
Yeah, yeah, for real.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:05.440
And I mean, if you're gonna tie in baking to mirror so many other things in just the human experience, it's true.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:09.519
The unknown is risky and uh who knows what will happen.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:13.039
But the cool thing is is you're just making red, so it's gonna be okay.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.160
It's gonna be fine.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.160
It's gonna be time.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:20.880
And if you have the privilege of having that time, like then why not try?
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.000
Right.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:29.759
Can we move on to extraction rates and how we should name them or ask for them?
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.759
Because I recently just went through a miscommunication and it was no one's fault.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:42.079
It was just for a lack of common definitions of these things in America.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.480
And it can cause some big misunderstandings.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:57.839
And when we're asking for whole wheat or we're asking for sifted flour, we might not call it the same thing that the miller is calling it.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:07.359
So it's important to know all the ways that we could possibly call it something and make sure that when we're asking for something, we know what we're getting and what that means.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:07.920
Yeah.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:14.559
So when we talk about all the berries go into the mill, all of the flour comes out.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:17.200
Everything that goes in is what comes out.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.440
Nothing has been sifted, put anywhere else, taken for anything.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:25.200
The whole berry goes in, the whole berry comes out as flour.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:28.240
That could be called a few different things here.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:29.519
Whole wheat.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.000
We only know it as a hundred percent extraction.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:33.359
Right, right.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:35.680
But people do call it whole wheat.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:36.160
Yeah.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:42.240
But the pr I think the I don't know what I don't want to say it's correct because I don't even know if that's fair.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:42.480
Sure.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:48.720
But I think that from the miller's vocabulary, it would be called full extraction, right?
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.559
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's I would definitely call it full extraction.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.079
Yeah, 100% extraction, full extraction.
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:57.119
Yeah.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:58.960
Okay, 100% extraction.
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:00.799
10 pounds is coming out.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:01.519
Right.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:06.400
10 pounds goes in, 10 pounds goes out, 100% extraction or full extraction.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.119
It could also be identified as whole wheat.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.960
I don't agree with that term, but you someone might call it that.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.759
So if you go to your miller and you say, Do you have whole wheat?
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:26.720
Make sure you if you mean the whole berry, you need to say 100% extraction, full extraction, all the berry goes in, everything comes out.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:27.839
Right?
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:28.480
Yep.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:28.880
Yep.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:34.400
Yeah, I mean the whole wheat piece, I think I would more call it whole grain.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.480
Um specifically if it's like a stone mill you're working with.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:39.200
Sure.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:50.640
Um, and I guess that's the only caveat I would put on there is like if it's a stone mill you're working with and you're asking for full extraction, 100% extraction, it's whole grain.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.480
Um yeah.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.079
Let's let's encourage our listeners to be seeking out stone ground flour.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:05.920
Roller milled is obviously an option, but it's not I hope that first people look for local stone gro stone mills.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:06.640
Sure.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.240
Yeah, if that's what's available to you.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.640
If that's not what's available to you, then correctly.
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.799
Don't ship it, you know, 300 miles away, you know, or whatever.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.960
Please don't ship flour across the country if you can't find something local.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:19.599
Yeah.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.079
Uh unless it's just, you know, for fun.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.640
But like if you're running a huge bakery, you're right.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.480
Use what's what's growing around you.
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:48.160
Um because for roller milled, I think what happens is, and I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that you know, there it's all separated out along different steps of the process, and then it's put back together at the end, which is different than how the stone mill, and we talked about this in our our last chat, it's different than how the stone mill processes the grain.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:58.559
I've personally noticed that the flower is a little bit more oily in a good way when it's stone milled, and and just the integrity of the grain is very beautiful.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:03.440
So full extraction, 100% extraction, whole wheat, whole grain.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:12.240
Let's just make sure that when everyone's out in the world, when you're asking for something, make sure you know what you're getting if you want the whole berry in your bag.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:13.039
Yeah.
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:20.160
Then we move on to sifted high extraction flowers.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:28.799
And someone might go out and they'll see like a T85, a T80, a T75, T55, all purpose, right?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:35.039
That's where things start to become confusing because there's the wild, wild west out here, people are calling everything all kinds of things.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.480
So we need to understand what is in our bag.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.839
So can you tell us what a high extraction flour is?
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:53.039
So a high extraction flour is when you've ex when you've extracted a high amount of the food and put that in your bag.
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.559
That can be anywhere from 80% to 100%.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.880
Like a 100% extraction is a high extraction flour.
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:03.519
Correct.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:03.920
Right?
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:04.240
Yeah.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.639
But you have like a really um big range there.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:25.039
Um so like we have a high extraction flour that is lightly sifted, that's like a 95-90% extraction, meaning we put 10 pounds in the in the hopper and nine pounds comes out.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:32.960
So we're losing like 10% of the food off into the brand bucket.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.639
And so what's being sifted off are sharp bran particles.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.719
Yeah, they're just like really big, fat, chunky brand particles.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.000
Yep.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:51.360
So high extraction, typically we're talking 80, 85, 90, 95 high extraction flowers.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:52.400
Okay.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:00.159
Those might also be called something like a T80 or a T eighty five kind of thing.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:08.159
Yeah, but I don't want people to get confused about like the T system, like T80 does not mean 80% extraction.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:08.960
Correct.
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:09.440
Yeah.
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:36.239
So that and that's where I start to like kind of lose people when I'm talking about this, because it's like, yeah, it is, it is, you know, kind of a brain fuggler because you're kind of like, well, there are these numbers and they should match up, but the T system is measuring ash content where like the extraction rate is measuring what's coming into the food bucket that's going into your bowl, that's going into your mix.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.679
And that just feels to me like a very intuitive way to measure things.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.559
Um yeah.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:36:03.199
So if someone wants to start using a high extraction base flour instead of their all-purpose flour, they should ask their miller for something that is 80 to 100% extraction.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:09.360
And that could be called other things, but the question to ask the miller would be what is the extraction rate?
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.360
Yeah, what is the extraction rate?
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:18.960
Um that is how I talk to people when I'm answering emails, is when they ask for a T system.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.519
I'm like, something that's comparable is this extraction rate, I think.
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:26.960
But I'm not an expert on that piece of it at all.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:31.280
So what I can say is this is considered high extraction, you know.
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:31.920
Okay.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:34.960
And why would a person choose this type of flour?
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:36.480
High extraction.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.039
Yeah.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:52.960
Um, well, you are lightly sifted, so you're gonna be avoiding more of those chunkier bran pieces that can, if not hydrated well, depending on what you're gonna use it in, can disrupt your gluten development.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.039
And it's gonna be a kind of finer, a finer flour.
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:04.800
You're still gonna have some of the bran in there, depending on how well it's been milled.
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:11.760
So you're still going to have a lot of nutrients locked in there, specifically coming from the stone mill.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:12.880
I think.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.599
So hyper dog's barking now.
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:16.239
Is that your dog's?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:17.760
It's your dog, now it's my dog.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:19.920
Awesome.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.199
Listeners are gonna know all the dog barks by the end of this podcast.
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.320
That's great.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:34.159
But yeah, I would say the reason why you would want high extraction is maybe it's easier for you to work with, depending on what your hydration level is, it's gonna be easier for you to work with.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:40.559
You're gonna have more nutrients in your bread, more of those like folic acids, more of those minerals.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:52.239
All the pieces that allow our bodies to kind of use and break down the wheat grain is best digested as a whole.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:52.880
Yeah.
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.719
The plant itself has everything that you need to eat the plant.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:00.000
Nature is perfect, you know.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:06.159
And I think if someone's looking for a more loft, a little bit more open crumb that could be a good fit for them.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:18.239
And that again is like taking away those like heavier, sharper pieces of bran is going to contribute to having a more lofty, more silky, um, yeah, more fun.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:19.599
I agree completely.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.199
Can I ask you another question?
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:22.239
Yeah, please.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:30.079
When you are designing a formula or designing a product, yeah, how like where do you start with that?
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.360
Are you defining what you want to use or are you defining what you want to eat?
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.159
Mm-hmm.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.320
So this is something that I've been thinking about a lot more recently.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:53.360
And if anyone follows me on Instagram at Matriarch Bread, they may have seen that I just recently made an oat porridge loaf.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:04.480
And I really wanted to make a loaf that was everything in from the Levan to the inclusions to anything in there was completely local.
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:14.719
I have two things on my menu that I pretty much make every single week, which is the country dough or the whole wheat and the eincorn scald.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.000
Those are kind of in my brain two very different types of bread.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:23.119
But I felt like I was missing this third piece of the puzzle.
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:24.719
So I was like, how am I gonna do that?
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:30.159
So when I'm building a menu, I'm trying to think about what's missing from my flavor profiles already.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.599
And I was like a sweeter, lighter loaf.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.960
So I knew that I wanted a high extraction flour, and I got it off the is it pronounced Astera?
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.239
Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:46.960
I know what you're talking about.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.000
The the mill.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:53.199
And so it makes a really super fine flour that's just a little sifted.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.360
So I knew that it would behave like a a strong white flour.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:03.440
And I wanted that as my base, and then I knew that I wanted local oats and local honey.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:05.920
So I I sought those things out.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:12.960
I didn't want to just buy oats from the grocery store, I wanted it to be local, and I was like, well, if I can't find local oats and I won't make it, I'll I'll figure something else.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.559
I'll do like a barley or whatever.
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:14.960
Yeah.
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.639
Found the local oats, found the local honey, and started experimenting with that.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:34.960
So I I thought about this after a conversation with, I won't give it away because I like the interviews to be a surprise, but an a conversation that I had with a different baker, and she was telling me when she didn't have access to local stone milled flour yet, she started using other grains that were growing around her instead.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.239
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna think outside the box a little bit.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:38.639
Yeah.
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.920
And I'm really interested in biodiversity.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.519
I'm interested in using the things that might otherwise not really get a lot of love.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:55.360
And just starting to be more creative because I feel like people now that things are catching on, so there's a lot of like rinse and repeat.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:55.599
Yeah.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:58.880
And I think it's so important to be like, okay, what's next?
00:40:59.039 --> 00:40:59.840
Okay, what's next?
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:00.719
What's growing?
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.079
What are the new ideas?
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:06.320
How can we keep pushing this so that there's something running down the line?
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:10.239
Yeah, where you get to also evolve with the harvest season too.
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.880
Exactly.
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:11.119
Yeah.
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:15.199
And help other people think outside of the box because we're all so busy.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:27.519
Sometimes we just get stuck in doing the same kinds of things over and over, and that can feel really safe and it's still important, but also Mark really is a good, I guess, kind of like if the right term is like catfish.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:32.400
I don't mean that in a negative way, but someone who's like nipping away at me to keep thinking, right?
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:36.239
Thinking about how I can use more and and and try new things.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.280
And so for me, that's how I start thinking about a formula.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:41.360
I'm like, what's missing from my menu?
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:43.119
What can I get?
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:44.559
And how can I use it?
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.320
Can I turn it into a porridge?
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.119
What's the texture of the loaf that I want it to be?
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:50.960
What parts of it do I want you to taste?
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:56.159
If I'm making a honey oat, I can't use a super strong grain flavor because then you won't taste the honey in the oats.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.480
So it's kind of like that when I'm thinking about something.
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:00.960
If it's whole grain, I want the whole grain to be in your face.
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:01.840
That's all you're gonna taste.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.039
There's gonna be rye, there's gonna be hard red, there's gonna be hard white.
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.599
Uh for country, it's like a balance of the two.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:16.559
For the eincorn, um, I'm using a lot of it so that you can really taste that flower in there and the texture and everything that it brings to the table.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.719
I'm not trying to hide anything, you know what I mean?
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:19.360
Yeah, sure.
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:34.320
Yeah, and I think that's a perfect, uh, a beautiful example of like where people would want to start when when figuring out what kind of flower they want, like being able to define what do I want out of this for yourself.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:39.440
Like we're sure you live in the United States, like everything is available to us.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:43:04.960
So if like your focus is around hyperlocal, if your focus is around supporting your farmers and supporting your local craftsmen and your makers of whatever it is, like that should be at the forefront, and then being able to then go from there and say, Okay, well, I can like you were saying before, use this buckwheat in a scald or in a cookie or in a biscot, like whatever.
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:06.960
Yeah.
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:07.679
Yeah.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:08.559
What about you?
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.079
Is that is that kind of how you start to think about building a formula?
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.039
Yeah, I start to think about what I guess I start with what's around me.
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:19.119
That's what I start with.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:27.920
I see, I I look at what ingredients I have that's available and in abundance, and then I think, what can I use this in?
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:29.360
How can I use this?
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.360
Um I just love you, Baylin.
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.960
I mean, I think I have a lot of like privilege with like what we can make too.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:48.320
So because we have a really, really small menu that I've kept small for a reason so that we can like expound on it rather than like you are preaching to the choir.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.679
A small menu is the way.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.320
It's the way.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.000
It is the way.
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:59.039
We do not need to be jack of all trades, master of none, make three things, make them well, yeah, be done with it.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.519
Yep.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.559
Hundred percent.
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:01.280
I'm with you there.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.880
A hundred percent extraction there.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:13.760
Let's give our let's wrap up this combo because I would love to have you on regularly for these little chit chats just because I I so enjoy you and I learned so much from you.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:14.960
I'd enjoy you too.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:15.599
This is so fun.
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:24.559
I love being able to talk to another like powerful strong woman baker person that is just like let's talk about flour, you know.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:25.119
Yeah.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:37.519
Can we let's wrap up this conversation by summarizing the questions that you would ask your miller when you're searching for a new flour to add to your bread?
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:45.280
Let's let in this scenario, you currently work with only white flour, all purpose, or bread flour, and you're ready to make some changes.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.559
Where do you start?
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:47.840
What questions do you ask?
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:48.960
Yeah.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:54.639
I would start with um, what other flowers do you offer?
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:58.960
What's available to me through my miller or through my distributor?
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.920
Um, and then from there, where are these uh being grown?
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:04.960
Sure.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.679
How yeah, how are these being grown?
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.079
And then I would say, at what extraction rate can I get these?
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.280
What's my options of extraction rate?
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.239
And what is the specs?
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.159
Can I get a spec sheet?
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:20.880
Yes.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:28.800
And Balin, last thing before we say goodbye, because I think this is an important part in a conversation I recently had.
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:32.239
Will this flower cost more?
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.840
I mean, that's that is a huge part of it.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:41.280
And that would be my next question is what is the price point on each of these things?
00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:48.239
And I will say, as someone who's spending a lot of money on flour, when I get my flower bill, I'm like, okay, that's real.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:50.880
An extra dollar per loaf pretty much takes care of it.
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:51.440
Yeah.
00:45:52.239 --> 00:46:02.320
It's not and depending on what your yield is, it could be less than that, you know, depending on what your setup is, um, how how much production you're doing a week.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.320
But flour is important.
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:10.400
And I think that's the other piece that I would ask people to consider is that flour is important.
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.199
It's a hundred percent of your formula.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:14.719
Exactly.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:17.119
It's this is it's literally flour.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.239
That's the whole story.
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:19.119
This is the story.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:21.039
What what story are you telling?
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:21.599
Right.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:22.320
Right.
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:26.079
And and what do you want to what story do you want to tell people?
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:28.079
Is the other piece too.
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:29.039
That's right.
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:34.159
About yourself, about where you live, about what you care about, because it is, it's a love letter to your community.
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:34.880
Absolutely.
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.320
I 100% agree.
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:43.440
This was such a great chit chat, and I know it's going to be so helpful, and the listeners are just gonna eat it up.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:47.360
I'm gonna end the conversation for us, but we can chit-chat for just a couple more minutes.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:49.199
Okay, so bye, Balin.
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:50.320
Bye, guys.
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.559
Thank you again, Balin, for joining us back on the podcast.
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:59.599
It's such a joy every time we get to have a conversation because it's just so fun.
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:08.800
We get to talk about all the things that we're both really interested in, and I always learn so much from you every time we connect, and I know that our listeners will too.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.039
So if you haven't had a chance to check out Balin's Instagram, she's at the Dusted Stone and she works at Chimmacum Granary up in Washington.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:34.400
I will make sure that I add links to everything in my show notes so that you can follow her and you can follow the granary and see what classes they're offering and find your way over there for a class because that's definitely high on my priority list for 2027.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.239
Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy Friday to listen to this podcast.
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:48.559
If you enjoyed this episode, if you could pop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review, it really helps the podcast grow.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:52.800
It gives us opportunities for potentially having sponsors in the future.
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:03.920
As you know, right now I record, produce, distribute, do all of those things on my own, and I've been really enjoying it, but it does come at a cost.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:13.360
So any little sharing on your stories or with your friends, it really helps me grow, it helps the podcast grow, it helps us get a much bigger reach.
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.960
So anytime I see that it just really fills my heart all the way to the brim.
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:23.039
So thank you for continuing to do that for us and just know that it's so, so appreciated.
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.480
I will be back next week with an interviews episode.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:31.360
I'm really excited for this one because it's a highly anticipated and highly requested guest.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:37.360
And then the following week we'll get back to a lessons episode where we'll dive a little bit deeper into PH.
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.239
So I will talk to all of you next week.
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:42.079
Bye friends.
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.440
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.599
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:48:55.760 --> 00:49:03.280
I'm Allie White, and as always, happy faking and long live real bread.
