Salinity Presents: Rowan Jacobsen, Part 2

WEBVTT
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Barbara Dunn (music):
Let love surround you
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and keep you safe and warm
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May the music in our hearts
be a shelter from the storm
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Emily Wilder: Welcome to Salinity
Presents, a podcast where I, Emily Wilder,
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interview the vendors and friends of
Salinity Seafood & More, my business
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on Whidbey Island in Washington State.
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I'm here today with author
and journalist Rowan Jacobsen.
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This is part two of a two-part interview.
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Find part one anywhere you find podcasts.
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Speaking of crazy flavors, you then
wrote a book called "Truffle Hound",
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which got a lot of people thinking
about something that they'd probably
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never thought about, truffles.
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And not chocolate truffles, which
we'll talk about in a minute,
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but tell us about truffles.
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What are they, if somebody's
not familiar with them, and
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where are they found these days?
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Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah.
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Part of the reason I wrote the
book was 'cause so many people
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are not familiar with them.
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Or they have the sense that they're
this super snooty food that, you
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can only get in Italy or something.
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Emily Wilder: Yeah, shaved by
the gram over some fancy pasta.
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Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah, literally.
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That's what they'll do in Italy in
the fall… they'll bring a scale
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to your table with this truffle, and
they'll weigh the truffle beforehand,
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then they'll shave it over your pasta.
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And then they'll weigh it again and
charge you, for the difference in grams.
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It can be $100 that they've just
shaved over the top of your dish.
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It's just stupid money.
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But it's all built into what the
truffle is and why it's so hard to find.
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Truffles are very closely
related to mushrooms.
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They're the fruiting body of a
fungus, just like a mushroom is.
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And that fungus, lives in the soil in
a symbiotic relationship with trees.
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And it's all these microscopic threads.
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That's the life form itself.
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It's hard to even see it in the soil.
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But when it wants to reproduce,
it makes this fruiting body
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which is full of spores.
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If it's a mushroom, it pops above the
surface and opens up its little parasol.
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And the spores, just come out in the wind.
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But a truffle, it's like a different
strategy where it doesn't pop up.
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Basically a mushroom that never
opens and always stays underground.
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It probably evolved in places where,
it was too dry, or where it was too
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risky to pop up and be a mushroom.
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You might get dehydrated.
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For whatever reason, they
decided to stay underground.
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But- if you're a little ball of
spores and you're underground, how
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do you spread the spores around?
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Which is the whole point.
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You can't do it.
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You can't rely on the wind
like other mushrooms do.
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The trick that truffles brilliantly
figured out is to make themselves smell
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so intense and so irresistible that all
these forest animals will be able to
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detect them from far away, even though
they're underground, and come and lose
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their minds basically, and race over and
dig up the truffle and eat the truffle.
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And then, poop out the spores
somewhere else later on.
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That's how the truffles get
moved around everywhere.
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But in order for that to work, they have
to smell super intense, and they do.
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And so people respond to those
smells as well as pigs and
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squirrels and everybody else.
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What's happened in Europe is that hunting
those truffles has become a big deal.
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And our noses are not good
enough to detect them when
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they're a foot underground, and
scattered throughout this forest.
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But pigs can do it, and pigs were
the original partners that people
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teamed up with to find truffles.
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But pigs never worked that well in a sense
because the pigs want to eat the truffles.
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And if it's a big pig, you can't
stop the pig from eating the truffle.
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Everyone talks about like old
truffle hunters who only have
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nine fingers or whatever.
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So everybody just switched to dogs.
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Dogs are really good at it.
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They love to do it, so
they learn pretty quickly.
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They have great noses.
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They're very good about
communicating with the owners.
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Most of them don't care about the truffle.
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They'd rather have the biscuit at the end.
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Some of them do like to eat the truffles.
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Either way, it's a lot easier with a dog.
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You can fit the dog in your
car a lot better than the pig.
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It just works way better.
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So that's what happens everywhere
in Europe that there are truffles,
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which is most places in Europe.
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In the fall and winter when it's
truffle season, summer too for
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a different type of truffle.
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People and their dogs slip away into the
woods and, you're basically just following
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your dog through the woods until the dog
spots a truffle, and then the dog digs up
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the truffle, and you give the dog a treat.
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But they're hard to find.
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So you have to have a really good
dog, and a really good truffle
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dog goes for thousands of dollars,
and you have to know where to go.
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Everybody guards their
spots very carefully, just
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like with mushroom hunters.
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And they don't want to be seen.
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They'll sneak in the woods.
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They'll go at night.
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A lot of truffle hunting happens at
night, especially in Italy and France,
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and it's all this underground economy.
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The truffles are worth a lot of
money, like hundreds of dollars for
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a good truffle or even thousands
for a big one, and it's all just
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sold to dealers exactly like drugs.
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The truffle market is just a version
of the drug market, and sometimes
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it's the same people actually.
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It finds its way into restaurants,
like fancy restaurants in Italy.
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Italy has the big truffle festival.
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But increasingly, the truffles are
coming from Eastern Europe because Italy
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has destroyed a lot of its forests,
and you need forests for truffles
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'cause they're symbiotic with trees.
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Most of the white truffles that
Italy is famous for and that get
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eaten in Italy during this festival
in the fall come from Croatia,
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Serbia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria.
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That's the good zone for truffle
hunting, for white truffles.
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Black ones come from France and Spain, and
people have figured out how to farm those,
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so more and more of those come from farms.
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White truffles, no one has figured
out how to cultivate them, so
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it's still just a wild thing.
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Those are the two, most
famous eating truffles.
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But truffles grow all over the world.
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There's thousands of species of truffles.
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Hundreds of them are edible, and the big
two European ones get all the attention.
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One of the things that I got into as I was
working on the book was all these other
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truffles, and it turns out no one thinks
that the US is having truffles, but the US
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has awesome truffles, every bit as smelly
and interesting as the European truffles.
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The most famous of those are
also from the Pacific Northwest,
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just like the Olympia oyster.
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I ended up spending a bunch of time
going truffle hunting in Oregon
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and Washington State for the book.
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It's amazing to me that people
don't know more about that because
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it's this unbelievable product,
an unforgettable scent once you
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experience it for the first time.
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There's a lot of them there, starting in
late fall and going all the way through
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the winter into spring, and it's never
become quite the big deal that it probably
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should have in the Pacific Northwest.
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There's a little truffle festival
that attracts some people, but it
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should be like salmon, in Alaska.
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It should be like a big thing
that people get excited about.
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Emily Wilder: Yeah, my hope
is that somebody will start
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cultivating them on Whidbey Island,
'cause I know you can do that.
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It's a little hit or miss, I've heard,
as far as your success rate with that.
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But do you think there's
enough in the wild?
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Rowan Jacobsen: There's tons in the wild.
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And yeah, you wanna use a dog, 'cause
then you're only digging up the the
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actual spot where the truffle is.
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People used to do it just by raking.
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Before there were a bunch of trained dogs.
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If you go into the right area of
Douglas fir and you just rake the
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soil, like viciously, like down a
few inches everywhere, you can find
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a bunch of truffles that way, but you
will have also destroyed the entire
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mycorrhizal system in that area.
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So, it's short-term profit, but then
you basically killed the goose who
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laid the golden egg, in a sense.
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So, just take the golden eggs, right?
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But anywhere there's Doug fir of a
certain age, you'll find these truffles.
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The hit or miss is people try to
cultivate the European black truffle.
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And that hasn't gone very well.
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The environment is so different,
it doesn't work very well.
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And it probably shouldn't.
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I never understood it because the
Pacific Northwest has these great native
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truffles that are just as good and that
grow really easily with Douglas fir.
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So, they should just
focus on those truffles.
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Emily Wilder: So you could get a Pacific
Northwest truffle, train your dog on
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that, and then take your dog out foraging.
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Rowan Jacobsen: Absolutely,
and lots of people do.
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Yeah.
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There's the company called The Truffle
Dog Company based out of Seattle.
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Emily Wilder: Yeah.
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I was gonna say.
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Rowan Jacobsen: Alana McGee.
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So you can get your dog
trained, and any dog can do it.
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Any dog that's food
motivated is good at it.
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And most dogs are food motivated.
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You can start even training your dog
right in your yard or something with a
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little fake truffle that you dot it with
truffle oil so it smells like a truffle,
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and then you hide the truffle, and when
the dog finds it, the dog gets a treat
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and a pat on the head, and enthusiasm.
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And yeah, it pretty much goes from there.
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Emily Wilder: How would
you describe the smell?
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Rowan Jacobsen: It's
actually hard to describe.
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It does something to your brain.
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You can tell that these organisms have
had many millions of years to figure
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out exactly what drives a mammal crazy.
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It's got almost like an alcoholic
smell to it, like sherry or
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something, but then it's also got
like an airplane glue smell to it.
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Funky and a little rotten smelling,
especially with the older ones.
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Garlicky, for sure.
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Cheesy.
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It's a crazy mix of flavors.
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And then beyond all that,
there's something that just
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hits your emotional system.
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It's not a smell that you would associate
with a particular food or something.
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It just does something to you.
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I talk about the truffle face sometimes.
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You hold a truffle in front of somebody's
nose and their eyes just get really big.
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They don't know if it's good
or bad, they're just like, "I
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just experienced something."
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Emily Wilder: You just wanna
follow it wherever it goes.
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You're just like, "That's it. I'm going."
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Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah.
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It's got your attention.
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Emily Wilder: Yeah.
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One of my favorite memories is: you
and I did a joint workshop at The
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Evergreen State College about truffles
and oysters, and we started by serving
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them pizza with truffles shaved on it.
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And that was a remarkable
experience for those students.
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You did a science journalism
fellowship at MIT, and you've been
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doing a lot of research and different
articles about different aspects of
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the brain and autoimmune diseases,
and lately a lot about sunlight.
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Rowan Jacobsen: A lot of my food
writing was really science and nature
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writing disguised as food writing.
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It wasn't reviews of
restaurants or recipes.
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I mean, there are recipes, but
it was never recipe-focused.
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It was always about making the
connection with the world that
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the food was coming out of.
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Whether it was the nature responsible,
or the cultural background, or just
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the science of it, how it all works.
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And I wrote a lot about health,
so I often think about the
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nutrient side of food as well.
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But then at some point I got
interested in light and started
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thinking of it as basically the other
nutrient that we don't think about.
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'Cause if you think about inputs into
the body, like obviously food, water,
00:09:26.451 --> 00:09:28.202
oxygen, but light's the other one.
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It is a constant input into the body.
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All those photons from the sun that are
pouring down on you, a bunch of them
00:09:34.354 --> 00:09:35.914
bounce off, but a bunch of them don't.
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A bunch of them are absorbed by your
molecules and change their behavior.
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And we don't think about it.
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We think of light as not quite real.
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Matter is real.
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Light is just this thing,
that we can see the matter.
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But light is pure energy.
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It's totally physical and it
totally changes the behavior
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of a molecule when it hits it.
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Once you realize that, you're like,
"Holy cow" like this is a big input
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that we're just taking for granted,
and the only time we tend to think
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about it is in terms of skin cancer.
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We know light is physical because
it can hit your skin and increase
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your risk for skin cancer.
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And most people know that it
makes Vitamin D in the skin, too.
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But those are the only two things we think
of with light in terms of it actually
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having a physical effect on the body.
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But it turns out there's decades of
research showing all the other things
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that light does to the body, and most of
them are good - not all - but it's this
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really important part of health that we
haven't put any attention into so far.
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And if you think about even the food
we eat is all light energy in a sense.
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It started in plants.
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Plants took that energy and used it to
build their bodies, and the energy's
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still in there locked in their molecules
that then come to us when we eat them.
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We're just eating light basically.
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So then, it's like, "Well, what kind
of light should we be eating?" Whether
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we're getting it through our skin or a
plant, is there good light and bad light?
00:10:42.896 --> 00:10:44.806
It turns out there is good light
and bad light, just different
00:10:44.816 --> 00:10:46.687
lights and we need a mix of lights.
00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:48.340
Eat your colors, right?
00:10:48.593 --> 00:10:51.133
Like the rainbow of foods
that we know are good for us.
00:10:51.133 --> 00:10:52.533
You want a rainbow of light too.
00:10:52.534 --> 00:10:54.715
So my new book looks at that.
00:10:54.725 --> 00:10:58.477
What do we know about what light
does to us and how can we like use
00:10:58.477 --> 00:11:02.558
that to get the best of light whether
it's for mental health or physical
00:11:02.558 --> 00:11:05.480
health or alertness, energy, sleep?
00:11:05.602 --> 00:11:06.482
And where do we go wrong?
00:11:06.482 --> 00:11:08.693
Because the reality is we go wrong a lot.
00:11:08.693 --> 00:11:13.023
We spend more time indoors than any
generation in history, so we actually
00:11:13.023 --> 00:11:15.403
don't get very much light at all anymore.
00:11:15.404 --> 00:11:18.475
That's a huge shift from
our prehistoric past.
00:11:18.477 --> 00:11:21.557
Emily Wilder: So it's called In Defense
of Sunlight: The Surprising Science
00:11:21.567 --> 00:11:24.508
of Sun Exposure, coming out June 16th.
00:11:24.764 --> 00:11:27.084
Rowan Jacobsen: In time for
June-uary in Whidbey Island.
00:11:27.314 --> 00:11:27.784
Emily Wilder: Yes.
00:11:27.864 --> 00:11:29.294
We need more sunlight here.
00:11:29.294 --> 00:11:31.644
We got bright clouds, and
that's about it right now.
00:11:31.645 --> 00:11:33.045
Rowan Jacobsen: Bright clouds
are okay, though, actually.
00:11:33.045 --> 00:11:35.645
If you walk around with a light
meter, which I do a lot these
00:11:35.645 --> 00:11:36.856
days- … it can be shocking.
00:11:36.857 --> 00:11:38.367
They measure light in lux.
00:11:38.368 --> 00:11:41.448
A pure sunny day if your light meter's
pointing at the sun, it'll be like
00:11:41.588 --> 00:11:43.308
100,000 lux that are hitting it.
00:11:43.309 --> 00:11:48.160
Clouds roll in, it's down to 10 or 20,000
lux, which is a lot less than sunny.
00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:52.181
But then you go inside your house
and it's 400 lux or 300 lux.
00:11:52.182 --> 00:11:55.082
So even a cloudy day, if you're
outside, you're in 10,000 lux
00:11:55.102 --> 00:11:57.082
versus a few hundred lux inside.
00:11:57.083 --> 00:11:57.413
Emily Wilder: Wow.
00:11:57.414 --> 00:11:59.404
I kinda wanna carry
around a light meter now.
00:11:59.737 --> 00:12:01.587
Rowan Jacobsen: You can actually
download a free app for your phone.
00:12:01.637 --> 00:12:03.917
It doesn't work quite as well as the
real ones, but it's close enough.
00:12:04.167 --> 00:12:04.757
It's fun.
00:12:05.007 --> 00:12:05.647
Emily Wilder: Awesome.
00:12:05.814 --> 00:12:08.764
In preparation for this book,
you spent a while without
00:12:08.784 --> 00:12:10.594
any artificial light sources.
00:12:10.854 --> 00:12:11.794
What was that like?
00:12:11.795 --> 00:12:13.895
Rowan Jacobsen: When you're doing the
research, you start to realize there's
00:12:13.895 --> 00:12:17.496
a ton of studies about what light at
night does to people, 'cause that's
00:12:17.496 --> 00:12:18.286
the other thing that's happening.
00:12:18.286 --> 00:12:22.427
We spend more time indoors than any
generation in history, and we have
00:12:22.427 --> 00:12:23.927
more artificial light at night.
00:12:24.177 --> 00:12:24.967
It depends where you live.
00:12:24.967 --> 00:12:27.217
If you're in a city, there's
a lot of light all the time.
00:12:27.218 --> 00:12:31.080
And there's now a lot of studies
that show that people don't sleep
00:12:31.081 --> 00:12:32.831
as well when there's light around.
00:12:32.831 --> 00:12:37.142
And even beyond sleep, they're just
their physiology works differently if
00:12:37.142 --> 00:12:38.883
there's ambient light around at night.
00:12:38.885 --> 00:12:40.135
And it leads to bad health.
00:12:40.136 --> 00:12:41.726
I tend to wake up in
the middle of the night.
00:12:41.726 --> 00:12:43.736
I'll be awake for two or three hours
and then I'll fall back asleep.
00:12:43.737 --> 00:12:47.078
As I'm learning about all the bad things
that light is doing to me, light at
00:12:47.078 --> 00:12:51.489
night, I started wondering, well, what
would happen if I had super dark nights?
00:12:51.489 --> 00:12:52.329
Super dark.
00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:54.090
And would that cure my insomnia?
00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:55.790
Would that make me feel
different in any ways?
00:12:55.790 --> 00:12:59.110
I wanted to do an experiment
where I really went back to no
00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:00.952
light after sunset until morning.
00:13:00.952 --> 00:13:02.722
See what would that
experience would be like.
00:13:02.722 --> 00:13:06.273
And I figured I had to do it for a
month to have any real takeaways.
00:13:06.274 --> 00:13:09.144
But I wanted to do it somewhere where at
least after dark it would be nice out.
00:13:09.144 --> 00:13:10.824
By the time I was ready
to do it, it was March.
00:13:10.844 --> 00:13:13.405
I live in Vermont, so Vermont
was not the place to do it.
00:13:13.405 --> 00:13:15.885
Yeah, Vermont's dark at night,
but there's nothing you can do,
00:13:15.886 --> 00:13:17.116
in March, once it gets dark.
00:13:17.116 --> 00:13:20.826
I ended up renting an Airstream
in southern Arizona for the month
00:13:20.826 --> 00:13:23.307
in a super, super remote corner.
00:13:23.307 --> 00:13:25.502
It's where Kitt Peak, the observatory, is.
00:13:25.503 --> 00:13:27.763
They're there because it's
so dark for their telescopes.
00:13:27.763 --> 00:13:28.973
That seemed like a good area.
00:13:28.975 --> 00:13:32.756
So I, rented this Airstream and
it did have solar power, but my
00:13:32.766 --> 00:13:34.657
personal rules were no light at night.
00:13:34.657 --> 00:13:38.518
So once it got dark, I just had
to be in the dark until morning.
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.500
I did that for a month to
see what it would do to me.
00:13:40.511 --> 00:13:41.201
Emily Wilder: What did it do?
00:13:41.252 --> 00:13:41.952
What happened?
00:13:41.953 --> 00:13:44.383
Rowan Jacobsen: So the first part
of it, I didn't improve my sleep as
00:13:44.383 --> 00:13:45.993
much as I thought it was going to.
00:13:46.246 --> 00:13:49.154
But also I was working normally
during the day, indoors in
00:13:49.154 --> 00:13:50.344
the Airstream on my laptop.
00:13:50.344 --> 00:13:53.244
Light during the day was fine, 'cause
there's tons of light during the day.
00:13:53.274 --> 00:13:54.904
You can use a laptop, it doesn't matter.
00:13:54.905 --> 00:13:58.917
And then at night, no laptop,
no phone light, no light bulbs.
00:13:58.918 --> 00:14:00.628
The first couple weeks, I
still didn't sleep that well.
00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:03.369
But then I was kinda done with my
work part of it, and I was also
00:14:03.369 --> 00:14:06.190
getting a little sad about all these
days spent in the Airstream, when
00:14:06.190 --> 00:14:07.690
I'm in the beautiful Arizona desert.
00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:10.733
So the second half I wasn't
working during the day anymore.
00:14:10.733 --> 00:14:14.505
I was just out hiking mostly,
climbing mountains, cruising around.
00:14:14.506 --> 00:14:18.076
That's Arizona in March, so it's
super bright during the days.
00:14:18.077 --> 00:14:20.818
And then I had my super dark nights.
00:14:20.838 --> 00:14:24.338
I'd hike during the day, get back to
my Airstream, make a fire every night
00:14:24.338 --> 00:14:29.002
as the sun was setting, grill some food
out at the campfire, watch the sun set.
00:14:29.002 --> 00:14:33.403
And then really in a way that I had barely
ever done before every night it would
00:14:33.413 --> 00:14:37.535
be just watching the light fade and the
colors change… It would take, a couple
00:14:37.535 --> 00:14:41.066
hours of being out there for the sky
to really go through all those stages
00:14:41.066 --> 00:14:42.956
of blue, and then finally get black.
00:14:42.956 --> 00:14:45.136
And then you see the first stars,
then you see a bunch of stars,
00:14:45.136 --> 00:14:46.496
then you see a ton of satellites.
00:14:46.496 --> 00:14:48.166
It's amazing how many
satellites are out there now.
00:14:48.167 --> 00:14:52.437
But that process, that accordion
process of bright, dark, bright,
00:14:52.447 --> 00:14:54.368
dark, then I slept great.
00:14:54.368 --> 00:14:56.818
My takeaway was that you need both.
00:14:56.828 --> 00:14:58.858
You need bright days and dark nights.
00:14:58.858 --> 00:15:03.500
And since then I've read up about that a
lot, and your cells basically need cues.
00:15:03.501 --> 00:15:05.731
Most of the cells in your body are
just trying to figure out what the
00:15:05.731 --> 00:15:07.191
hell's going on out there, right?
00:15:07.192 --> 00:15:10.422
They depend on cues from the rest of
the body, from the skin or the brain or
00:15:10.422 --> 00:15:15.522
whatever, to tell them when they should be
cranking up activity and doing stuff, and
00:15:15.522 --> 00:15:17.362
when they should switch to repair mode.
00:15:17.392 --> 00:15:20.133
'Cause basically what a cell has
to do every day is… it's active
00:15:20.133 --> 00:15:23.373
during the day, it's making stuff,
or it's being a muscle cell, or
00:15:23.383 --> 00:15:24.553
it's an immune cell or whatever.
00:15:24.554 --> 00:15:28.105
But then that activity just causes
damage and wear and tear, if
00:15:28.105 --> 00:15:29.445
you think of a machine, right?
00:15:29.446 --> 00:15:30.146
Stuff happens.
00:15:30.176 --> 00:15:33.407
Stuff breaks, stuff gets corroded,
and it has to get fixed, and they
00:15:33.407 --> 00:15:36.957
all have their own repair systems
that will fix up that stuff.
00:15:36.958 --> 00:15:41.130
But they have to go into rest mode
in order to make all those repairs.
00:15:41.130 --> 00:15:42.780
That's normally what happens at night.
00:15:42.780 --> 00:15:47.101
Your brain sends these sleep signals
to the rest of the body, and the cells
00:15:47.101 --> 00:15:51.582
stop making stuff, stop burning energy,
and start just fixing themselves.
00:15:51.583 --> 00:15:53.023
But they need to sync that system.
00:15:53.033 --> 00:15:57.345
They don't want food coming down the
pike if they're in Fix Yourself Mode.
00:15:57.347 --> 00:16:01.247
So it all has to be coordinated,
and so basically those light signals
00:16:01.247 --> 00:16:04.068
are the main way that the body
coordinates all that activity.
00:16:04.069 --> 00:16:06.880
That's why you're starting to see
a lot of recommendations to get
00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:08.390
that morning light in your eyes.
00:16:08.391 --> 00:16:11.511
Go outside for 15 minutes and
make sure you get that bright
00:16:11.511 --> 00:16:12.451
morning light in your eyes.
00:16:12.452 --> 00:16:15.532
That's because that sort of helps
get everybody - everybody being
00:16:15.532 --> 00:16:17.353
all your cells - on the same time.
00:16:17.363 --> 00:16:19.733
They're like, "Okay, day has started.
Here we go." And then they'll
00:16:19.743 --> 00:16:21.493
also get sleepy at the same time.
00:16:21.512 --> 00:16:23.574
Emily Wilder: So they can work
in coordination with each other?
00:16:23.644 --> 00:16:24.054
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah.
00:16:24.055 --> 00:16:25.025
Emily Wilder: That's remarkable.
00:16:25.026 --> 00:16:28.847
And you say in your description that
scientists estimate that reducing sun
00:16:28.847 --> 00:16:34.177
exposure enough to prevent one death from
skin cancer can lead to 50 unnecessary
00:16:34.177 --> 00:16:36.567
deaths from other more dangerous diseases.
00:16:36.568 --> 00:16:37.038
Rowan Jacobsen: Right.
00:16:37.038 --> 00:16:41.368
That's the thing that a lot of scientists
have been talking about lately is:
00:16:41.369 --> 00:16:45.400
yes, sun exposure does raise your
risk of skin cancer, but there aren't
00:16:45.400 --> 00:16:46.920
very many deaths from skin cancer.
00:16:46.921 --> 00:16:50.731
Sun exposure also lowers your risk
of death from all the cardiovascular
00:16:50.731 --> 00:16:54.141
diseases and a lot of other
cancers and autoimmune diseases.
00:16:54.142 --> 00:16:57.312
And also it lowers your risk of
dementia, depression, that stuff.
00:16:57.313 --> 00:17:01.343
So there's a trade-off basically where
if you really stay out of the sun,
00:17:01.423 --> 00:17:06.074
you really get almost no sun exposure,
yes, you'll lower your risk of skin
00:17:06.074 --> 00:17:09.144
cancer a little bit, but you'll raise
your risk of these much more common
00:17:09.144 --> 00:17:11.104
diseases that are the big killers.
00:17:11.105 --> 00:17:12.875
So it seems like a bad trade-off.
00:17:12.877 --> 00:17:14.527
You don't need to get a ton of sun.
00:17:14.528 --> 00:17:18.060
You just need to get a little bit
every day to make sure, you basically
00:17:18.070 --> 00:17:19.457
keep the rest of your body happy.
00:17:23.388 --> 00:17:27.548
Emily Wilder: It's time to share another
one of Salinity's favorite nonprofits!
00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:32.019
The Orca Network is based on Whidbey
Island and is dedicated to raising
00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:36.989
awareness about the whales of the Pacific
Northwest, and the importance of providing
00:17:36.989 --> 00:17:39.389
them with healthy and safe habitats.
00:17:39.639 --> 00:17:43.980
They help ensure these magnificent
animals have a future in our waters with
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:48.451
community-powered Whale Sighting and
Stranded Marine Mammal Networks, and
00:17:48.461 --> 00:17:53.941
education and advocacy, with their super
fun Whale Center in downtown Langley.
00:17:53.942 --> 00:17:58.122
Consider donating directly or
volunteering with the Orca Network.
00:17:58.123 --> 00:18:01.023
Learn more at orcanetwork.com!
00:18:05.251 --> 00:18:06.702
Let's talk about chocolate.
00:18:06.703 --> 00:18:08.484
That's highlight of my day.
00:18:08.484 --> 00:18:09.974
I already had some chocolate today.
00:18:09.974 --> 00:18:11.344
I'm gonna go eat some more of it.
00:18:11.404 --> 00:18:12.874
Rowan Jacobsen: You sent me
some nice chocolate, too.
00:18:12.874 --> 00:18:14.154
That Taiwan chocolate was excellent.
00:18:14.164 --> 00:18:14.984
Emily Wilder: Yes.
00:18:15.024 --> 00:18:18.774
So yeah, I started the business
wanting to talk about Olympia oysters.
00:18:18.775 --> 00:18:23.385
Quickly learned not a lot of people are
gonna wanna talk about Olympia oysters, if
00:18:23.385 --> 00:18:25.045
that's the only thing I'm talking about.
00:18:25.055 --> 00:18:29.085
Emily: So added salmon, added seaweed,
and then I found a chocolate that
00:18:29.085 --> 00:18:32.816
had seaweed in it made by Chugach
Chocolates up in Alaska, and that
00:18:32.816 --> 00:18:37.686
was kinda my slippery slope into
feeding my obsession with chocolate.
00:18:37.687 --> 00:18:42.747
So now the store is, mostly everything
made in the Northwest, and then some
00:18:42.757 --> 00:18:46.307
really high-end fair trade chocolate
made in the country of origin.
00:18:46.432 --> 00:18:51.022
I love your podcast, Wild Chocolate,
that you then turned into a book,
00:18:51.023 --> 00:18:55.763
and because of that, we do carry
three bars made from wild chocolate.
00:18:55.888 --> 00:18:57.640
Tell us what is wild chocolate?
00:18:57.780 --> 00:18:58.700
Why is that important?
00:18:59.010 --> 00:19:01.520
Rowan Jacobsen: Cacao
is native to the Amazon.
00:19:01.610 --> 00:19:04.630
And the way you make chocolate is
you take the seeds of the cacao
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.552
tree, which grow in these pods, and
you ferment them and dry them and
00:19:08.562 --> 00:19:10.293
grind them up, and that's chocolate.
00:19:10.293 --> 00:19:14.855
It's just like you would do with
almonds or any other type of nut
00:19:14.855 --> 00:19:16.457
that you can grind into a paste.
00:19:16.458 --> 00:19:19.999
But chocolate cacao has
these unique qualities.
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.359
It's really high in fat, a really
nice fat called cocoa butter.
00:19:24.360 --> 00:19:28.031
And it has all these rich,
aromatic qualities that especially
00:19:28.031 --> 00:19:29.101
come out when you ferment it.
00:19:29.421 --> 00:19:32.811
So when you grind it up, instead
of just turning into peanut butter
00:19:32.811 --> 00:19:36.051
or almond butter, it becomes this
amazing thing called chocolate.
00:19:36.052 --> 00:19:38.662
And people have loved that
for thousands of years.
00:19:38.663 --> 00:19:44.276
The people who really first perfected the
art of taking those seeds and fermenting
00:19:44.276 --> 00:19:49.506
them and roasting them and turning
them into chocolate, were the Maya in
00:19:49.506 --> 00:19:51.536
Mesoamerica and some of their forerunners.
00:19:51.537 --> 00:19:56.739
Then when Europeans hit the New World
in the 1500s and discovered chocolate,
00:19:56.739 --> 00:20:00.290
thanks to the Maya and the Aztec, they
got all excited about it, but they assumed
00:20:00.290 --> 00:20:04.002
that it came from those places 'cause
the Maya and Aztec had been working with
00:20:04.002 --> 00:20:08.003
it for probably 4,000 years - the Maya
had anyway - and they'd been farming
00:20:08.003 --> 00:20:10.244
it for many thousands of years as well.
00:20:10.245 --> 00:20:12.615
They had these huge orchards
of cacao trees, the whole
00:20:12.625 --> 00:20:14.265
thing already by the 1500s.
00:20:14.266 --> 00:20:17.317
No one thought about it as a
wild food because it was all
00:20:17.317 --> 00:20:18.307
coming from these orchards.
00:20:18.308 --> 00:20:22.209
But it turned out that the cacao tree
was actually native to the Amazon and
00:20:22.209 --> 00:20:25.399
still grew wild throughout the Amazon,
and no one in the chocolate industry
00:20:25.399 --> 00:20:26.779
had ever paid attention to that.
00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:29.739
These original strains of
chocolate, before they had developed
00:20:29.739 --> 00:20:33.499
strains to be farmed, were still
poking around in the Amazon.
00:20:33.500 --> 00:20:37.511
And that suddenly started to matter
about 20 years ago and it was because
00:20:37.511 --> 00:20:40.732
- once again, we're back to the topic of
industrial agriculture - as chocolate
00:20:40.732 --> 00:20:44.372
became a huge global phenomenon, and
they needed more and more of it, they
00:20:44.372 --> 00:20:47.442
started growing it all over the world
in the tropics, which is the only place
00:20:47.442 --> 00:20:52.044
it can grow, wiping out rainforest and
planting, vast plantations of cacao trees.
00:20:52.294 --> 00:20:56.124
The trees they decided to plant were not
the most delicious because industrial
00:20:56.124 --> 00:20:59.164
agriculture doesn't really care about
deliciousness, it just cares about yield.
00:20:59.414 --> 00:21:01.914
They picked the trees that produced
the most yield, that were the most
00:21:01.914 --> 00:21:04.435
disease resistant, basically the
ones that could make a bunch of crop.
00:21:04.436 --> 00:21:05.406
They didn't taste that good.
00:21:05.406 --> 00:21:09.846
So, that boring chocolate, or that boring
cacao is responsible for all the chocolate
00:21:09.846 --> 00:21:11.376
that we all grew up with, pretty much.
00:21:11.376 --> 00:21:14.367
Any regular cheap chocolate in
the grocery store is made from
00:21:14.367 --> 00:21:16.067
this really underwhelming cacao.
00:21:16.068 --> 00:21:19.438
That's fine if you just have a little
thin coating of chocolate on something,
00:21:19.438 --> 00:21:22.539
or if you've got so much sugar in your
chocolate that the flavor of the chocolate
00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:24.030
doesn't really come through that much.
00:21:24.031 --> 00:21:28.451
But by the 1990s, 2000s, people were
starting to make much more serious
00:21:28.451 --> 00:21:34.211
chocolate with much higher percentages of
cacao in the chocolate, so 60%, 70%, 80%.
00:21:34.381 --> 00:21:37.822
And when you've got that much cocoa, you
can really detect the flavor of the cocoa.
00:21:37.822 --> 00:21:38.742
There's nowhere to hide it.
00:21:38.792 --> 00:21:42.702
Suddenly the companies that were making
these much more intense chocolates
00:21:42.703 --> 00:21:45.895
were like, "We need better cacao."
They started looking for better cacao,
00:21:45.905 --> 00:21:50.216
but these delicious varieties from the
Americas with all these aromatics had
00:21:50.216 --> 00:21:53.318
been forgotten about, and a lot of them
had disappeared So, there's a sort of
00:21:53.358 --> 00:21:56.889
like desperate hunt to find the good
stuff and make more of it, if they could.
00:21:56.890 --> 00:22:00.221
The best stuff that got found was
this wild stuff in the Amazon.
00:22:00.222 --> 00:22:01.522
And first a couple people reported on it.
00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:04.072
They're like, "Hey, there's actually
some really delicious cacao in the
00:22:04.072 --> 00:22:07.826
Amazon, but it's wild." And no one in the
industry had ever heard of any of that.
00:22:07.826 --> 00:22:10.210
So, they're like, "No. There's no
such thing as wild cacao." It's
00:22:10.210 --> 00:22:11.350
like saying wild tomatoes.
00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:13.300
It's been domesticated
for thousands of years.
00:22:13.301 --> 00:22:15.952
And, the other people are like "There's
a lot of trees out here, and they don't
00:22:15.952 --> 00:22:19.813
look domesticated and the beans are
really good." Finally, everyone realized
00:22:19.813 --> 00:22:23.784
that there was some really high-quality
cacao throughout the Amazon, and if
00:22:23.784 --> 00:22:27.498
you could get your hands on it and have
enough people to help you pick it, you
00:22:27.498 --> 00:22:30.708
could make some incredible chocolate
that had different flavors than had
00:22:30.708 --> 00:22:33.019
ever been presented in a chocolate bar.
00:22:33.144 --> 00:22:36.971
That became a big movement in the
past, I don't know, 10, 15 years.
00:22:36.973 --> 00:22:41.684
And it's really fun, and it's a good thing
for the Amazon, because if you can make
00:22:41.684 --> 00:22:44.934
a product from the wild trees, then you
don't have to cut down the Amazon and
00:22:44.934 --> 00:22:48.325
turn it into a pasture for cattle, which
is what happens in a lot of the Amazon.
00:22:48.327 --> 00:22:52.249
It's both a way to make a really
delicious product, a way to give
00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:55.570
the people who live in those places
some sort of income, and a way to
00:22:55.580 --> 00:22:57.200
preserve rainforest at the same time.
00:22:57.201 --> 00:22:58.231
So it's a win-win-win.
00:22:58.481 --> 00:23:01.991
Emily Wilder: In the podcast, you're
literally going into the Amazon
00:23:02.001 --> 00:23:05.982
with your recorder, and some of
the clips from there are crazy.
00:23:05.982 --> 00:23:09.712
You're met with machine guns
when you touch down on the plane.
00:23:09.713 --> 00:23:12.813
You're hoping that the river
doesn't flood your campsite.
00:23:12.836 --> 00:23:14.566
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah, the
Amazon's a rough area.
00:23:14.566 --> 00:23:16.616
There's not a whole
lot of law enforcement.
00:23:16.616 --> 00:23:20.648
It's just like the Wild West, and it's
also where a lot of drug running happens,
00:23:20.668 --> 00:23:25.299
because the coca for the cocaine is all
being grown in the Andes, like on the
00:23:25.299 --> 00:23:29.079
edge of the Amazon, and then it basically
all gets transported through the Amazon
00:23:29.089 --> 00:23:31.029
on its way to the markets of the world.
00:23:31.030 --> 00:23:35.400
It's a dangerous area and in addition,
of course, the conditions are a
00:23:35.401 --> 00:23:37.561
little dangerous and a lot miserable.
00:23:37.561 --> 00:23:38.421
It's always flooding.
00:23:38.421 --> 00:23:39.301
There's tons of rain.
00:23:39.301 --> 00:23:40.291
It's always wet and muddy.
00:23:40.291 --> 00:23:43.321
There's tons and tons of biting
insects, and then there's, like,
00:23:43.321 --> 00:23:44.891
the crocodiles and the jaguars.
00:23:44.961 --> 00:23:48.231
It's not a comfortable place to
operate, but it's this super intense
00:23:48.231 --> 00:23:49.651
place, so it's really fascinating.
00:23:49.741 --> 00:23:52.782
If you can put up with the misery,
there's a lot to experience there.
00:23:52.962 --> 00:23:54.432
I'm always good with that trade-off.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.961
So, I convinced these chocolate
seekers, these cacao hunters, to let
00:23:57.961 --> 00:24:01.632
me tag along and spent some time with
them going upriver into the jungle
00:24:01.632 --> 00:24:04.912
to try to get these really delicious
cacaos and turn them into chocolate.
00:24:04.913 --> 00:24:07.123
It's a crazy way to make a living.
00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:10.120
For anyone, if you've ever had a
business where you need to really
00:24:10.120 --> 00:24:14.640
tightly control conditions in order to
have any hope of profitability, that
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.140
all goes out the window in the Amazon.
00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:17.880
It's impossible to control any of it.
00:24:17.881 --> 00:24:22.215
You're totally dependent on other people
out there to harvest the crop because
00:24:22.215 --> 00:24:26.485
it's not like an orchard with apples where
you just go row by row and pick your crop.
00:24:26.486 --> 00:24:29.076
It's just growing randomly through
the rainforest, so you have to
00:24:29.076 --> 00:24:31.987
cover a lot of ground, and it's
just not efficient in any way.
00:24:31.987 --> 00:24:35.327
And then you have to hope like you
don't lose your crop overboard or,
00:24:35.327 --> 00:24:39.297
it doesn't rot on, on the way to
the fermentation and drying station.
00:24:39.298 --> 00:24:43.518
The only people who are trying to do it
are crazy people who are just dreamers who
00:24:43.518 --> 00:24:47.818
really have like, been captured by this
dream of making this beautiful wild food.
00:24:47.818 --> 00:24:50.098
And it's a beautiful dream, so it's
really fun to write about them.
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:51.259
And their chocolate is delicious.
00:24:51.259 --> 00:24:54.151
I just, I wouldn't wanna be
trying to make my living doing it.
00:24:54.401 --> 00:24:58.964
Emily Wilder: Luisa Abram is the company
that I sell the chocolate from that
00:24:58.964 --> 00:25:01.254
you've done some of this adventuring with.
00:25:01.256 --> 00:25:05.774
They are working with the people who are
harvesting there's a lot of education
00:25:05.774 --> 00:25:10.174
and then the actual resources for
that fermentation and drying phase.
00:25:10.174 --> 00:25:13.634
I know that's crucial and resources
that are pretty difficult to
00:25:13.634 --> 00:25:16.824
come by when you're just living
out in rural areas like that.
00:25:16.825 --> 00:25:17.645
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah, for sure.
00:25:17.655 --> 00:25:23.070
And she partners with an NGO called
SOS Amazonia, whose goal is to work
00:25:23.070 --> 00:25:27.231
with all these indigenous groups that
live in the Amazon and find ways to
00:25:27.231 --> 00:25:31.253
bring in some sort of economy that
sustains the place, sustains the
00:25:31.253 --> 00:25:32.623
nature of the place at the same time.
00:25:32.653 --> 00:25:37.104
They're always looking for what they could
make from the forest that is sustainable
00:25:37.124 --> 00:25:39.675
and can be some sort of income for them.
00:25:39.686 --> 00:25:41.636
Cacao is turning out to
be one of the best things.
00:25:41.686 --> 00:25:44.326
They would go to some remote spot
where they knew there was some really
00:25:44.326 --> 00:25:47.826
good cacao and just meet with the
locals who live up and down the river
00:25:47.826 --> 00:25:49.906
and ask them if they were interested.
00:25:49.906 --> 00:25:53.306
And then if they were interested, then
go into all the steps that would be
00:25:53.306 --> 00:25:58.147
necessary 'cause it really depends on
them to harvest the stuff, and then
00:25:58.147 --> 00:26:02.458
you have to build a little wooden
fermentation station where once you take
00:26:02.458 --> 00:26:07.729
the beans out of the pods, you need to
ferment them in wooden boxes, stir them.
00:26:07.730 --> 00:26:08.870
There's a lot of work involved.
00:26:08.870 --> 00:26:12.800
And then, for after about a week of
fermentation and stirring, then you dry
00:26:12.810 --> 00:26:17.031
them, and then they're shelf-stable,
and Luisa can send a boat up to pick
00:26:17.031 --> 00:26:18.311
them up and take them out of there.
00:26:18.313 --> 00:26:22.453
But she ends up, yeah, doing a lot of
training workshops throughout the Amazon.
00:26:22.454 --> 00:26:26.685
And basically, she always has to depend
on her relationship with the people there.
00:26:26.685 --> 00:26:29.265
And the reason it's worked for her,
where it hasn't worked for some
00:26:29.275 --> 00:26:33.226
other people who are kinda more just
thinking about it as a business,
00:26:33.227 --> 00:26:37.808
is that if it's just about numbers,
about dollars, it tends to break down.
00:26:37.818 --> 00:26:41.249
The people lose interest once it's fishing
season or whatever, as they should.
00:26:41.249 --> 00:26:44.189
For her, it's become much
more relationship based than
00:26:44.189 --> 00:26:45.619
just pure business based.
00:26:45.619 --> 00:26:49.440
They have this very nice ongoing
reciprocal flow that goes back
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.831
and forth, and that has turned out
to be a more stable way to do it.
00:26:52.832 --> 00:26:55.552
Emily Wilder: That's just such
amazing work, really appreciate it.
00:26:55.802 --> 00:27:01.737
I did send you a few bars that we sell
at the store, from Fu Wan in Taiwan.
00:27:01.738 --> 00:27:06.629
I got interested in this company
because they do a chocolate bar that
00:27:06.629 --> 00:27:08.929
is an extra long fermentation time.
00:27:08.929 --> 00:27:12.769
The fermentation time is where a
lot can go wrong, just like you're
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:17.220
fermenting beer, you can end up with
really funky things during that process.
00:27:17.221 --> 00:27:22.742
And, when we do chocolate workshops,
we'll do eight to 16 different chocolates
00:27:22.752 --> 00:27:27.528
and you get to taste chocolate from
all over and really start to identify
00:27:27.598 --> 00:27:31.318
flavor differences from different
regions, the terroir of the chocolate.
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:37.850
And with these three bars from Fu Wan,
you can try 100%, which a lot of people
00:27:37.850 --> 00:27:41.722
are scared of, but once they're actually
trying high quality chocolate, they
00:27:41.722 --> 00:27:43.552
can appreciate it a little bit better.
00:27:43.553 --> 00:27:48.184
And then a 70%, and then that
70% with the double fermentation.
00:27:48.186 --> 00:27:48.656
Rowan Jacobsen: Right.
00:27:48.656 --> 00:27:52.186
And also the double fermentation,
they were grinding it more coarsely-
00:27:52.186 --> 00:27:52.716
Emily Wilder: Yes.
00:27:52.766 --> 00:27:54.936
Rowan Jacobsen: Which is more similar
to what you might find in Mexico.
00:27:54.937 --> 00:27:57.947
Emily Wilder: Yeah, I'm really hoping
that we'll see more experimenting
00:27:57.947 --> 00:28:01.388
with that fermentation, because it
tastes like there's fruit added to it,
00:28:01.388 --> 00:28:05.264
but it's that champagne-like flavors
being added through fermentation.
00:28:05.524 --> 00:28:08.544
Rowan Jacobsen: The double ferment:
super fruity, super high acid.
00:28:08.544 --> 00:28:11.624
It's a very different experience if
people are used to traditional chocolate.
00:28:11.864 --> 00:28:14.554
And it makes you realize that there
is no one thing that's chocolate.
00:28:14.554 --> 00:28:16.644
Chocolate can be all
these different things.
00:28:16.655 --> 00:28:19.145
I feel like that's starting to
get explored, but there's probably
00:28:19.145 --> 00:28:20.925
quite a bit of area still there.
00:28:20.975 --> 00:28:24.875
Emily Wilder: I know at the Northwest
Chocolate Festival here in Washington,
00:28:24.875 --> 00:28:29.487
there's a vendor who's doing different
roast levels, and that's his whole thing.
00:28:29.487 --> 00:28:32.957
He's got a bunch of different beans from
different places, and then he'll say, "Do
00:28:32.957 --> 00:28:36.617
you want that light roast, medium roast,
or dark roast?" Just like with coffee.
00:28:36.770 --> 00:28:38.810
They're very similar processes.
00:28:38.811 --> 00:28:39.071
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah.
00:28:39.141 --> 00:28:41.081
Emily Wilder: We're in a
chocolate boom right now.
00:28:41.081 --> 00:28:45.251
But we're also facing some not
great futures with chocolate.
00:28:45.251 --> 00:28:48.121
What does the future of chocolate
look like from where you're standing?
00:28:48.123 --> 00:28:48.923
Rowan: It keeps changing.
00:28:48.923 --> 00:28:49.973
It's an interesting story.
00:28:49.993 --> 00:28:52.103
Chocolate is grown around
the world, as we said.
00:28:52.123 --> 00:28:53.883
About 70% of it comes from Africa.
00:28:53.884 --> 00:28:57.894
Most of it is sold on the commodity
market, so there's a set price that
00:28:57.894 --> 00:29:00.114
the world pays per ton of cacao.
00:29:00.115 --> 00:29:03.586
And that price had traditionally been
low, and the farmers always kinda
00:29:03.586 --> 00:29:05.256
got screwed by the bigger companies.
00:29:05.257 --> 00:29:11.188
Then the farmers had a couple of bad years
in a row where weather was bad and that
00:29:11.188 --> 00:29:14.778
reduced the crop, and some diseases got
introduced and that reduced the crop.
00:29:14.778 --> 00:29:17.748
There's probably three years in a row
where there was big shortages, and
00:29:17.748 --> 00:29:19.639
there was more demand than supply.
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.141
And so, classically, prices rose.
00:29:22.161 --> 00:29:24.601
People were, like, paying whatever
they could to just get their hands
00:29:24.601 --> 00:29:25.611
on the chocolate they needed.
00:29:25.612 --> 00:29:27.963
And prices went bonkers because of that.
00:29:27.963 --> 00:29:33.223
From $2,000 a ton, suddenly it was
$7,000 a ton, and then $12,000 a ton.
00:29:33.473 --> 00:29:35.283
Six times the traditional price.
00:29:35.283 --> 00:29:37.943
And so, the Hershey's of the world
were totally freaking out, and they
00:29:37.943 --> 00:29:40.343
announced that they were gonna be
using less chocolate in their products.
00:29:40.344 --> 00:29:43.324
And then other people announced that they
were gonna start to use fake chocolate.
00:29:43.324 --> 00:29:46.155
Like, where they were making
chocolate flavors out of stuff that
00:29:46.155 --> 00:29:48.256
wasn't actually cacao… insanity.
00:29:48.406 --> 00:29:51.587
Now, it looks like this year
it's gonna be a really good crop,
00:29:51.588 --> 00:29:52.608
and so things are looking good.
00:29:52.608 --> 00:29:54.769
Suddenly the price went
"Swoosh" back down.
00:29:54.770 --> 00:29:57.841
And it's not down to  $2,000, but
it's much lower than it has been.
00:29:57.842 --> 00:30:01.873
Now everybody's, "Oh, maybe it's okay."
And Hershey's, "Oh, we'll start using the
00:30:01.873 --> 00:30:03.563
same amount of chocolate we always used.
00:30:03.603 --> 00:30:04.953
We don't know why we said that."
00:30:04.954 --> 00:30:06.924
Everyone's like, all right,
things are back to normal now.
00:30:06.954 --> 00:30:10.966
But it was a wake-up call in
that this is a crop that's super
00:30:10.966 --> 00:30:15.587
important worldwide and that is on
the backs of 5 million small scale
00:30:15.587 --> 00:30:21.500
farmers who are totally susceptible
to changes in weather or disease.
00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:23.750
The crop is quite fragile, in a sense.
00:30:23.750 --> 00:30:26.111
One of the takeaways is
that they need more support.
00:30:26.121 --> 00:30:30.792
These companies need to be paying
these farmers more for their cocoa so
00:30:30.792 --> 00:30:34.563
that the farmers can afford to do the
things that they need to restore the
00:30:34.563 --> 00:30:36.693
long-term viability of their farms.
00:30:36.693 --> 00:30:39.884
If you're a farmer and you're getting
undercut, you start taking shortcuts.
00:30:39.894 --> 00:30:41.454
You don't do the
maintenance you need to do.
00:30:41.456 --> 00:30:43.846
You don't prune the trees as
well, and then it eventually
00:30:43.846 --> 00:30:46.116
catches up with you, and then it
catches up with everybody else.
00:30:46.176 --> 00:30:49.827
So, the companies need to invest
a lot more money on these farmers.
00:30:49.828 --> 00:30:50.508
Emily Wilder: Definitely.
00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:55.530
And in your podcast, in episode four
"Big Bad Chocolate" you go through
00:30:55.530 --> 00:30:59.480
the chocolate section in a Whole
Foods, and you talk about these brands
00:30:59.510 --> 00:31:03.400
that seem pretty good, say they're
pretty great and sustainable, but
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:04.890
a lot of it is just greenwashing.
00:31:05.290 --> 00:31:05.860
Rowan Jacobsen: Right.
00:31:05.870 --> 00:31:09.220
It doesn't take much for a
cocoa company to say that
00:31:09.220 --> 00:31:10.560
they're doing the right things.
00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:13.730
Even fair trade… a lot of people
know to look for like the fair trade
00:31:13.730 --> 00:31:15.940
logo on a product like chocolate.
00:31:15.941 --> 00:31:18.929
Fair trade, all that means is
that, you know, in theory, the
00:31:18.929 --> 00:31:22.119
farmers have a set price that is
higher than the normal set price.
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.149
But it's still not a
very high price at all.
00:31:24.149 --> 00:31:27.529
It's negotiated over years, so
it's like they get a tiny bit more.
00:31:27.530 --> 00:31:31.500
But then a tiny bit of that more actually
goes to the fair trade corporation
00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:34.801
to pay their costs and, God knows
what their executives are making.
00:31:35.131 --> 00:31:39.530
So, most of the people in the chocolate
industry told me fair trade is not a
00:31:39.530 --> 00:31:41.940
good system and, don't count on that.
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:46.680
Instead, look for chocolates that
are made with a direct trade with a
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.400
particular farm, where they have a
relationship with the farm, just like
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.261
we were talking about with Luisa, where
they're guaranteeing that farm more money.
00:31:53.261 --> 00:31:54.881
They're not buying on
the commodity market.
00:31:54.891 --> 00:31:59.451
Basically commodity markets always kill
any hope of doing good for anybody.
00:31:59.451 --> 00:32:03.732
You wanna cut out of the commodity system
and establish a direct relationship
00:32:03.732 --> 00:32:07.353
with your farmer, because not only then
is more of your money going to them,
00:32:07.354 --> 00:32:10.824
but you're also gonna be more like
responsive to their needs, and they're
00:32:10.824 --> 00:32:12.374
gonna be more responsive to your needs.
00:32:12.374 --> 00:32:15.405
You might be like, "Hey, I love
those beans you sent me last time.
00:32:15.405 --> 00:32:18.086
Did you do something different, and
can you do that again?" It's just
00:32:18.086 --> 00:32:19.266
a better relationship all around.
00:32:19.266 --> 00:32:22.336
And you're seeing this in more and more
chocolate companies where they'll say
00:32:22.336 --> 00:32:26.676
right on the bar like what farm those
beans came from and, who the people are.
00:32:26.676 --> 00:32:29.476
If the name of the farmer is on
the package, that's a good sign.
00:32:29.477 --> 00:32:33.448
I think that's hopefully where more of
the specialty market will be heading.
00:32:33.698 --> 00:32:34.598
The stuff that you sell.
00:32:34.848 --> 00:32:36.078
Emily Wilder: Yes, exactly.
00:32:36.578 --> 00:32:40.950
I wanna wrap this up but I have
two questions, one small, one big.
00:32:40.952 --> 00:32:45.063
First, would you say, or can I get
your endorsement, of an Olympia
00:32:45.063 --> 00:32:47.324
oyster over an East Coast oyster?
00:32:47.325 --> 00:32:48.415
Rowan Jacobsen: Apples and oranges.
00:32:48.416 --> 00:32:52.537
Olympia has the most intense flavor,
and it's incredible little creature.
00:32:52.607 --> 00:32:55.077
So the Olympia is just amazing.
00:32:55.307 --> 00:32:57.837
It's also very small, so it's
too small for some people.
00:32:57.838 --> 00:33:01.268
Eastern oyster is bigger, and it has a
very crisp potato chip kind of a flavor,
00:33:01.268 --> 00:33:03.368
so- people love it with beer, right?
00:33:03.368 --> 00:33:04.608
It's the perfect oyster with beer.
00:33:04.788 --> 00:33:07.531
The Olympia is a more intense
flavor experience, for sure.
00:33:07.629 --> 00:33:09.489
Emily Wilder: It's more
like the caviar of oysters.
00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:10.819
Rowan Jacobsen: It's the
caviar of oysters, yeah.
00:33:10.889 --> 00:33:13.629
Emily Wilder: Caviar and potato chips
is one of my favorite treats, so…
00:33:13.649 --> 00:33:13.929
Rowan Jacobsen: Right.
00:33:13.929 --> 00:33:16.789
So what you really wanna do is you wanna
put a little Olympia oyster on top of
00:33:16.790 --> 00:33:17.740
your Eastern oyster and eat them together.
00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:18.370
Emily Wilder: I've never seen that before.
00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:19.070
Rowan Jacobsen: I haven't either.
00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:20.320
I haven't even thought
about it till just now.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:20.850
Emily Wilder: Let's do it, that's great.
00:33:20.850 --> 00:33:21.700
Rowan Jacobsen: So let's make that happen.
00:33:21.710 --> 00:33:22.100
Emily Wilder: Yeah.
00:33:22.101 --> 00:33:24.191
Rowan Jacobsen: That's a good Instagram-
It could be a thing, actually.
00:33:24.381 --> 00:33:24.991
We could make that a thing.
00:33:25.181 --> 00:33:25.901
Emily Wilder: I love that.
00:33:25.902 --> 00:33:26.042
Rowan Jacobsen: All right.
00:33:26.042 --> 00:33:26.502
Let's do that.
00:33:26.502 --> 00:33:27.272
Next time I'm out there,
00:33:28.512 --> 00:33:29.057
Emily Wilder: let's do that.
00:33:29.057 --> 00:33:29.222
Yeah, definitely.
00:33:29.222 --> 00:33:31.262
Okay, and then last question.
00:33:31.272 --> 00:33:37.364
For somebody wanting to get into food and
science writing, over all of your years
00:33:37.394 --> 00:33:42.244
of writing, and specifically interviewing
people, you've interacted with so many
00:33:42.254 --> 00:33:45.466
different people for all of these stories,
what kind of advice would you have?
00:33:45.716 --> 00:33:46.926
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah,
so pick your character.
00:33:46.946 --> 00:33:47.946
Pick a good character.
00:33:47.976 --> 00:33:49.617
Pick somebody who likes to talk.
00:33:49.618 --> 00:33:52.168
Seriously, don't pick
the quiet, demure one.
00:33:52.228 --> 00:33:55.068
Pick a character who likes to talk
and who's has a big personality, so
00:33:55.068 --> 00:33:56.468
they'll give you lots to write about.
00:33:56.468 --> 00:33:59.488
And they have to have agreed that
they're gonna take you along with them.
00:33:59.488 --> 00:34:00.928
Record like crazy.
00:34:00.928 --> 00:34:06.610
It's so easy now to record and just get
instant transcriptions of everything,
00:34:06.612 --> 00:34:08.622
so that way you never miss anything.
00:34:08.623 --> 00:34:12.793
Like you think you're gonna remember in
your head, but you never get it in exactly
00:34:12.793 --> 00:34:16.523
the right words, and it's the weird words
that people put together that make what
00:34:16.523 --> 00:34:18.073
they say interesting a lot of the time.
00:34:18.074 --> 00:34:19.455
So, yeah, record everything.
00:34:19.455 --> 00:34:20.425
Pick your subject well.
00:34:20.426 --> 00:34:23.296
And also, know what you're getting
into, 'cause it is a tough world.
00:34:23.296 --> 00:34:27.457
The world of journalism is
transforming fast as magazines go
00:34:27.457 --> 00:34:29.929
under, and books are a little shaky.
00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:31.499
People's attention spans are going down.
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:33.731
There's always gonna be storytelling,
but I think the traditional
00:34:33.731 --> 00:34:35.321
storytelling is gonna suffer.
00:34:35.341 --> 00:34:39.311
So what are gonna be the new venues and
media through which people tell stories?
00:34:39.312 --> 00:34:41.943
I don't think it's gonna be the
traditional ones necessarily.
00:34:41.944 --> 00:34:43.401
Podcasts are a really interesting one.
00:34:43.401 --> 00:34:46.901
It's hard to monetize a podcast
these days, but I think a lot of
00:34:46.901 --> 00:34:49.211
people listen to them, and that
can be a fun way to tell a story.
00:34:49.211 --> 00:34:52.191
Emily Wilder: I know I'm much more
of a visual than auditory person.
00:34:52.201 --> 00:34:54.661
Why this podcast is going
to have a transcript.
00:34:54.661 --> 00:34:58.292
All of our episodes, because while I
like listening while I'm doing other
00:34:58.292 --> 00:35:02.704
things, I love just speed reading through
something even better than listening.
00:35:02.705 --> 00:35:03.205
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah, me too.
00:35:03.315 --> 00:35:05.445
Emily Wilder: Hopefully we'll
still keep some written words.
00:35:05.447 --> 00:35:05.827
Rowan Jacobsen: I hope so.
00:35:05.828 --> 00:35:06.148
We'll see.
00:35:06.168 --> 00:35:08.228
Depends how much of the
work AI is doing for us.
00:35:08.458 --> 00:35:09.018
Emily Wilder: Yeah.
00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:10.559
Do you know what your
next book is going to be?
00:35:10.686 --> 00:35:11.516
Rowan Jacobsen: Uh, no.
00:35:11.526 --> 00:35:13.416
Working on that right now.
00:35:13.476 --> 00:35:16.899
It might be further down the energy path,
what we were talking about, basically
00:35:16.899 --> 00:35:18.710
light coming through the whole system.
00:35:18.711 --> 00:35:19.221
Emily Wilder: Cool.
00:35:19.222 --> 00:35:20.072
Fascinating.
00:35:20.322 --> 00:35:24.652
Well, I look forward to checking in a
year or two and hearing more about it.
00:35:24.653 --> 00:35:25.903
Rowan Jacobsen: Yeah,
I'll keep you posted.
00:35:26.063 --> 00:35:26.853
Thanks for having me.
00:35:27.033 --> 00:35:28.203
Emily Wilder: Thanks
so much for joining me.
00:35:28.351 --> 00:35:29.291
Have a good day, Rowan.
00:35:29.478 --> 00:35:29.798
Rowan: You too.
00:35:30.329 --> 00:35:34.309
Emily Wilder: Tune in next week, and every
week after for more conversations with
00:35:34.319 --> 00:35:37.329
friends of Salinity Seafood and More.
00:35:37.454 --> 00:35:41.014
If you'd like to get your hands on
Rowan's books or support other small
00:35:41.014 --> 00:35:45.869
businesses from the Pacific Northwest,
head over to www.eatsalinity.com.
00:35:45.869 --> 00:35:50.499
That's E-A-T S-A-L-I-N-I-T-Y.
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:54.130
You can also shop in person if
you're here on Whidbey Island.
00:35:54.505 --> 00:35:58.245
If you enjoyed this episode,
please leave a review, subscribe,
00:35:58.245 --> 00:35:59.375
and tell all your friends.
00:35:59.885 --> 00:36:05.675
This podcast is hosted by me, Emily
Wilder, SeaEO of Salinity Seafood & More.
00:36:05.970 --> 00:36:10.310
It's edited by Luc Hagopian and
exists entirely to eventually
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.440
bring everyone to the topic of
our native Olympia oyster species.
00:36:14.776 --> 00:36:19.247
Please help increase demand and
appreciation for this beautiful oyster by
00:36:19.267 --> 00:36:21.997
asking for it everywhere you find oysters.
00:36:21.998 --> 00:36:24.398
Barbara Dunn (music):
Our love is like an onion
00:36:24.398 --> 00:36:25.998
Many layers to peel.