WEBVTT
00:00:05.629 --> 00:00:15.149
Welcome to our new podcast Rethink in CX with my co-host, who I'm sure you'll know from previous episodes of the Rethink Productivity podcast, Simon Fraser.
00:00:15.469 --> 00:00:16.190
Hello, Simon.
00:00:16.269 --> 00:00:16.669
How are you?
00:00:16.829 --> 00:00:17.070
Good.
00:00:17.149 --> 00:00:19.230
We should have just called this the Simon, shouldn't we?
00:00:19.309 --> 00:00:21.070
But um we we got there with a name.
00:00:21.230 --> 00:00:32.189
So we're gonna focus on that blend of productivity, customer experience, which is where your expertise is and talk about relevant relevant topics and things that are top of mind.
00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.869
So I will hand over to you to start us off on the first episode.
00:00:36.109 --> 00:00:37.229
Brilliant, thanks, Simon.
00:00:37.310 --> 00:00:45.149
Um, first of all, we're saying that uh as I left home this morning, my wife said to me, Um, this isn't you're not on camera for this, are you?
00:00:45.230 --> 00:00:48.109
So no, we're not we're not at that world of of podcasts yet.
00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:48.910
We can't.
00:00:49.070 --> 00:00:54.109
No, no, I think that's let's leave ourselves to the imagination of the of the listeners.
00:00:54.270 --> 00:01:07.789
So um, yeah, one of the things I I love doing in in my role is to think about and talk about changes in the sort of macro forces, the environment that businesses and customers are operating in.
00:01:08.030 --> 00:01:16.189
And so we're going to look back a little bit on the summer that we've just had and two topics that have almost been inescapable.
00:01:16.349 --> 00:01:24.189
So one around agentic shopping, and the other one around, well, wasn't that a really nice summer that we've had sunshine-wise?
00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:29.709
But actually, what are the implications further on down the line for business and operations?
00:01:29.870 --> 00:01:38.510
And then we're gonna end with a broader conversation um about the risk of sameness in experience.
00:01:38.670 --> 00:01:41.709
And I want to say homogenous, and I've managed to say that word properly.
00:01:41.870 --> 00:01:42.989
So we'll get there.
00:01:43.150 --> 00:01:43.469
Yep.
00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:54.590
So the first one let's say I want to talk about this whole switch from SEO through to GEO, and there's been lots of conferences, lots of GEO, just explain it for people.
00:01:54.829 --> 00:02:00.430
Sorry, yeah, generative engine optimization in comparison to search engine optimization.
00:02:00.590 --> 00:02:18.269
So the fact that actually more and more of us are using um Gen AI, your your your Gemini's, your chat GPTs, your copilots, in order to get recommendations as to where to shop, where to eat, um, and and and all the rest.
00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:27.229
So increasingly more and more search traffic is coming from those sort of AI searches rather than traditional sort of Google and things like that.
00:02:27.469 --> 00:02:41.789
Um, now one of the implications of that is that businesses and brands are having to really think about how they can shape the experiences and their visibility in a way that AI and agents like.
00:02:42.269 --> 00:02:50.989
So there's two areas in particular that drive your likelihood to be called out early or you know sooner in terms of those recommendations.
00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:58.509
So one being relevance, so relevance in terms of the sorts of experience that people are looking for, but also trust.
00:02:58.589 --> 00:03:19.309
So we've come sort of full circle where experiences, which is what I've been mainly working in for the last 15 years, and reviews and forums and all those sorts of things, like feedback, are now being used in order to build up trust and again be more likely that the system is going to choose you.
00:03:19.549 --> 00:03:22.509
So managing those signals becomes really important.
00:03:23.069 --> 00:03:35.789
But actually, the focus is now moving away from just filtering of recommendations and the way that most people are using it through to the whole agentic side of AI.
00:03:38.189 --> 00:03:42.189
Does that drive false behaviours though?
00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:57.949
So we've all heard about false Google reviews and people spamming it so you get five stars, and that must then trigger the algorithm to pick that up and say, Well, this one always gets five stars local to you, it's great when actually it's not a true reflection of what happens.
00:03:58.189 --> 00:04:05.149
Yeah, I mean the mix of things which are going into the algorithm, uh yes, reviews is part of that.
00:04:06.029 --> 00:04:11.789
And yes, there will always be some gamification, but I would say that is still on the edges.
00:04:11.949 --> 00:04:12.269
Yep.
00:04:12.429 --> 00:04:18.189
I don't think I think we have to have some back to trust that actually the recommendations are are valid.
00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:32.349
And I would say, and I don't know about your experiences, Simon, nine times out of ten, it is making the right choices for me in a way that I don't think search engine optimization or purely using Google reviews does.
00:04:32.669 --> 00:04:38.669
It's back to probably yeah, I think it's back to what you classes experience for you, though, isn't it?
00:04:38.829 --> 00:04:43.870
So, like all these things, if you give it a good prompt, you'll get a good answer.
00:04:44.029 --> 00:04:47.069
So, is your experience based on speed?
00:04:47.229 --> 00:04:48.589
Is it based on price?
00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:49.870
Is it based on comfort?
00:04:49.949 --> 00:04:50.990
Is it based on atmosphere?
00:04:51.069 --> 00:04:52.750
Is it based on quality?
00:04:52.829 --> 00:04:53.389
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:56.029
Um, where the the place is.
00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:02.589
Um, as you know, we've kind of opened Spubros Express in Swindon as part of the catch-and-co business.
00:05:02.909 --> 00:05:15.149
That's a really interesting case study because it's a really tricky mix of experience, speed, quality, um, and we don't have any seats, so you go and eat you go and eat in the food hall.
00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:21.949
So the the atmosphere is what you see in that four or five minutes because it's viral, you queue to get there.
00:05:22.269 --> 00:05:29.310
So it's a really tricky dichotomy of people are queuing for 40 minutes because that's just the virality of it.
00:05:29.629 --> 00:05:36.909
You get there from a business point of view, we want to move them through quickly because we want the queues to go and people not to wait as long.
00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:49.870
But from an experience point of view, you want them to experience the team, experience the product, go through the process of picking your top in, seeing it go on, asking a few questions about stuff, having a photo on the way out, which is what they do.
00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:54.349
So it's a tricky one to put in a search engine or an a genetic engine.
00:05:55.389 --> 00:06:06.589
So that is again the context and the back to the relevance piece that the search annual DA or the GEO needs to understand what is the experience that Spud Brothers offers.
00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:09.789
But we'll we'll get reviews that say food great long way.
00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:10.349
Yeah.
00:06:10.509 --> 00:06:14.349
And it's kind of the weight is because it's viral at this moment.
00:06:14.669 --> 00:06:17.709
Um, and we'll get others that say the whole thing was great.
00:06:17.949 --> 00:06:20.430
So some of it is your expectation as you go.
00:06:20.669 --> 00:06:21.389
Yes, yeah.
00:06:21.789 --> 00:06:30.509
And and again, back to whatever someone is putting into those uh large language models in terms of what exactly is that they're looking for.
00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:37.310
You're obviously not going to come up if you say, I'm after a romantic meal with my partner and candlelight and stuff like that.
00:06:37.550 --> 00:06:38.269
You're not gonna send you.
00:06:38.909 --> 00:06:41.469
It's probably not your choice at that moment.
00:06:42.029 --> 00:06:43.629
Maybe you're just comfortable.
00:06:44.509 --> 00:06:47.069
Send the kids there while you go, but yeah, that's fine.
00:06:47.229 --> 00:06:55.469
Um, so so that whole piece around um visibility in the the engines is really important.
00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:07.709
But where we're seeing, and I I would say this is still early adopters or first movers, is the fact that people are using the whole agentic flow to go all the way through to transactions.
00:07:07.870 --> 00:07:15.789
So stepping out and allowing the machine to complete the loop rather than you having to, oh well, I've got that, now I'm gonna do the next thing.
00:07:15.949 --> 00:07:17.789
You can actually go all the way through.
00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:31.629
It'll based on again what you put in, it'll find it, stress test it with you, then maybe book it the reservation, say it's anniversary, it's wedding, it's birthday, it's a special night out.
00:07:32.829 --> 00:07:35.629
I suppose, will it do the review at the end?
00:07:35.709 --> 00:07:40.029
Would you be able to feed it and say it was a really good experience write the review, or is that a step too far?
00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:41.949
I it's a really good question.
00:07:42.110 --> 00:07:44.589
Will they complete a survey on your behalf?
00:07:44.669 --> 00:07:46.990
Um I just hope not.
00:07:47.550 --> 00:07:49.629
Although, I mean, you might talk about it.
00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:52.750
The the voice of the agent might be the future.
00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:58.509
I imagine it will stay in that more sort of user-testing UX piece.
00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:08.589
But as always, with those pieces, you you often need a survey or some other research to understand well actually why did they feel that way and why did they behave?
00:08:08.750 --> 00:08:15.310
So maybe, maybe voice of the agent is uh is the next landmark for us all.
00:08:15.469 --> 00:08:16.269
Um we'll see.
00:08:16.430 --> 00:08:30.909
Yeah, so so what we're seeing, a bit like the Spud Brothers piece, that we're seeing that brands and businesses are recognising the fact that they need to provide a lot more product detail in order to help with those transactions.
00:08:31.069 --> 00:08:41.149
There was a big splash, I imagine, um, sponsored by the Cotswold company over over the summer in terms of how they're sort of leading the category in terms of how they're thinking about AI.
00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:47.069
But they are sort of sharing and pushing through their product details into these large language models.
00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:57.710
So things like where it was sourced, where the material's from, how it was shipped, yes, every that whole potential way that that could be asked um um in in terms of making sure that it appears to be relevant.
00:08:57.789 --> 00:08:59.149
You've got to cover all bases.
00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:00.429
So we're seeing a lot of that.
00:09:00.590 --> 00:09:08.350
If you look at the North Face, like their website is I can see that if you look in the jackets, it says sort of man-male.
00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:17.870
So we almost are going to cover both bases there, but it will also talk about that these shoes are good for hiking in rainy conditions.
00:09:18.110 --> 00:09:25.789
So again, if someone is putting in, hey, I'm going hiking in Snowdon, it's likely to rain, then it is more likely to come up.
00:09:26.429 --> 00:09:34.909
Does that make it does that almost drive the behaviour then that you can get a better experience shopping online because you've got more information than in a store?
00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:38.990
Now I get in a store for North Face Jackets for example, you want to try it on, get your size.
00:09:39.069 --> 00:09:41.069
If you've had one before, you might know.
00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:52.990
But the colleagues probably aren't armed with that information at hand, they'll have it because the company will give it, but maybe you're more equipped, which probably is controversial thing to say, shopping online.
00:09:53.149 --> 00:09:55.710
It could be more curated, yeah, definitely.
00:09:55.870 --> 00:10:03.389
Um, and that will be a challenge for physical only retailers, although there are very few of them left.
00:10:03.470 --> 00:10:04.669
I mean, even Prime Markets now.
00:10:05.149 --> 00:10:09.230
And North Face is a good example, great brand, obviously part of VF, are they?
00:10:09.389 --> 00:10:10.029
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:10.269 --> 00:10:12.350
Few physical locations in the UK.
00:10:12.429 --> 00:10:18.350
I can probably think of the one just off Oxford Circus coupling outlets and stuff.
00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:23.710
So they're targeting big cities, prime footfall.
00:10:23.949 --> 00:10:26.029
So I suspect a lot of their sales are online anyway.
00:10:26.189 --> 00:10:30.909
The absolutely all through all three partners, all three partners, yeah, yeah, like JD Sports or other people.
00:10:31.069 --> 00:10:32.029
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:33.710
We could talk about North Face.
00:10:34.590 --> 00:10:38.189
But we won't because I think that's an interesting case study.
00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:50.110
Um, there's also the piece around the fact that you might have all the product details, but you've then got to make your websites more crawlable for these AI pieces.
00:10:50.269 --> 00:11:10.509
There was a good story um, again on LinkedIn, that um someone was using the on-running websites and it got through to almost the point of transaction, but the agent couldn't find a way to click on the buy button, so the site had not been set up for these sort of modern conditions of how these agents might want to work.
00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:44.990
There was another story around the fact that ASOS has built an agent, like a stylist, onto onto their site, and at some point during the transaction, um the customer or the agent started asking about fragrances, and ASOS doesn't sell fragrances, so it was actually ushered the customer off the ASOS website to the Tom Ford website in order to go and buy date that yeah, although ASOS currently having a few problems with the recent hack of the pop-up, but check your details, yeah.
00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:45.710
Absolutely.
00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:47.629
So I think this is really interesting.
00:11:47.789 --> 00:11:51.069
I it is an early mover piece here.
00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:55.069
There will be businesses that will get this right and will get the benefits of it.
00:11:55.230 --> 00:11:59.549
There were others that are not going to get this right and are going to no doubt learn.
00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:04.189
I would say it's is similar to that whole move towards social commerce.
00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:08.990
So the likes of John Lewis now making themselves available on TikTok shop.
00:12:09.389 --> 00:12:15.870
Um, and I like this phrase that sort of you're now having to meet customers in the apps that they're already using.
00:12:16.189 --> 00:12:20.350
So you have to go to them, you can't expect them to come back to you.
00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:22.669
So I think it's an interesting area.
00:12:22.909 --> 00:12:32.029
I would like to think in a future rethink and um CX, we might get someone on from a digital expertise background who can talk more about this.
00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:33.870
So that would be a great session.
00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.110
Yeah, the the website's more crawlable.
00:12:36.189 --> 00:12:45.470
Again, it's something at Rethink, our marketing team are looking at, and there's a whole world that I don't understand about it, but yeah, it's the next gen on from SEO.
00:12:45.629 --> 00:12:55.230
It needs to be optimized now for AI because obviously, when people are typing something in related to productivity, we want it to reference us and link to the website and all that stuff.
00:12:55.389 --> 00:13:05.949
So just yeah, the the next generation on, and once we've done that, there'll be the next next generation on that uh yeah, and they can go onto your website, Simon, and and click yes, commission.
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:07.949
I'm buying that project, and I'm happy to do it.
00:13:08.509 --> 00:13:09.549
I'm happy with that.
00:13:09.789 --> 00:13:10.830
I'm happy with that.
00:13:10.990 --> 00:13:22.029
So let's move into the next topic, which is as we I suppose heading towards um autumn, a bit of a reflection on the nice summer we've had.
00:13:22.189 --> 00:13:24.429
So it was lovely for a long time.
00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:29.629
I I don't think anybody woke up and went, Oh no, another dry, sunny day.
00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:39.470
Um, I heard on the radio yesterday it was the first day for a hundred days in the UK that there wasn't a single part of the country above 20 degrees.
00:13:39.549 --> 00:13:39.710
Yeah.
00:13:39.870 --> 00:13:42.509
So we've had a hundred days of that in the dry summer.
00:13:42.990 --> 00:13:46.509
I'm sure we'll pay the price with a harsh winter or wet.
00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:51.389
Wet winter, windy winter, snow, snow seems to be the thing that's gone missing.
00:13:51.470 --> 00:13:57.389
It's yeah, wet, wet and windy then into tonight, which is not a bad, not a bad compromise.
00:13:58.429 --> 00:14:02.110
Yes, as long as it's a bit of sunshine, a bit of sunshine every so often.
00:14:02.269 --> 00:14:25.389
So um, in before I went into CX, I worked in in FMCG, our CPG, the Nielsen company, and we would often look at or be asked about the impact of weather on consumer and customer choices, and always come back to the same three stories that um we will be more likely to eat biscuits or buy biscuits when it's rainy.
00:14:25.629 --> 00:14:28.110
So our biscuit consumption rockets.
00:14:28.189 --> 00:14:38.590
Um because it's a comfort food, and you're feeling a bit crappy about the world, so you'll go and reach for a Bourbon or maybe something nicer, hobnob.
00:14:38.750 --> 00:14:40.189
Hognop, chocolate hobnob.
00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:40.590
No, no.
00:14:41.149 --> 00:14:41.949
Let's let's get back.
00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:44.750
Um soft drinks.
00:14:44.909 --> 00:14:54.990
Um, so as the temperature rises above 21 degrees, you're more likely to reach for a smaller format in a chiller rather than a two-litre bottle in an ambient.
00:14:55.069 --> 00:14:58.909
So that again triggers different behaviours and even grosser choice.
00:14:59.069 --> 00:15:18.830
So um Sainsbury's used to talk about the fact that they knew they would that they could forecast a good weekend if the weather was going to be sunny, because customers have an image of freshness about Sainsbury's and it drives more traffic into their stores onto their website when the weather is better.
00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.230
So that is kind of well known.
00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:32.029
But we're now starting to see and needing to look at weather or climate from the perspective of employees, but also from an infrastructure point of view.
00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:40.429
So um, you know, this change in the weather, as much as we can predict, looks like it is our new reality.
00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:47.470
It's not just a one-off, you know, like three years ago when we had 40 degrees, we got quite close to that again.
00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:50.990
Yeah, and it seems like this is likely to continue to be.
00:15:51.069 --> 00:15:57.069
So this is not just an environmental issue anymore, it's an operation, it's uh it's a business one.
00:15:57.470 --> 00:16:10.750
So, yeah, so the summer we've just enjoyed, but imagine temperature continues to rise and it's every summer, and it's not so much a sort of one-off sort of dreamy moment, but it becomes a bit relentless.
00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:12.269
Start an air conditioning business.
00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:13.230
That's the kick.
00:16:13.710 --> 00:16:22.990
I was speaking to a guy who we do some work within the States earlier this week, and he's never been to the UK, and I was saying, you know, it's been we're in October at the time recording.
00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:28.830
I've been in London in a t-shirt for you know five days, and he was saying, Oh, you you must how do you find that?
00:16:28.909 --> 00:16:33.470
I said, Well, we don't have AC like you do, because there pretty much every house has got it.
00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:52.590
Obviously, um, restaurants can be really chilly if you've ever been, and you kind of take a jumper because it's that cold, and he could absolutely not get his head around why, as a country, we didn't have that as almost baseline infrastructure, and it's then I kind of have to say, because we don't really get historically warm weather for a sustainable period of time.
00:16:52.909 --> 00:16:54.350
Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:54.509 --> 00:17:00.990
Um, I mean, as a it's a double-edged sword introducing more air conditioning as well, but yeah, again, we probably won't go there.
00:17:01.149 --> 00:17:08.750
But to your point, our infrastructure just wasn't built to cope with the sort of summers that that we're likely to have.
00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:17.790
And obviously, we talked at the beginning that we're wanting to look here at the intersection with CX and productivity, and I think weather is one of those areas.
00:17:17.870 --> 00:17:29.230
So if you think back to those hot nights of the summer, you're likely to become more disruptive in terms of your sleep patterns, you may even become sleep deprived if you haven't got air conditioning.
00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:33.790
But then, if you're going to try to get somewhere, it's likely that public transport has failed.
00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:43.870
So, lots of stories, particularly in the southeast, around the fact that the ground beneath the tracks are dry to such an extent that the metal had buckled.
00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:45.390
So things like that.
00:17:45.550 --> 00:17:51.150
Um, and generally, if you're working outdoors, that become became almost impossible to do.
00:17:51.310 --> 00:17:58.990
So the knock-on effect that is reduced hours, reduced effort, which is going to impact economic growth.
00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:03.470
So it is likely that we are going to have to make some adjustments going forward.
00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:09.070
So we're going to have to plan differently, and we're going to have to have some flexibility in our in our models.
00:18:09.310 --> 00:18:25.070
Yeah, I think the government have obviously talked about maximum working temperatures, which from an employee point of view, I get having run stores, um, certainly those big sheds in retail parks 25 years ago, they become a greenhouse.
00:18:25.310 --> 00:18:29.630
You've got a metal roof with minimal ventilation and the sun's beating down on it.
00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:33.230
So from an employee point of view, yes.
00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:39.630
From a consumer point of view, we need to be careful what we wish for because if there's not people in the shops, we can't go to the shops.
00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:39.870
Yeah.
00:18:40.110 --> 00:18:42.830
Um, if they need more staff, then prices go up.
00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:47.950
So economically, it that's a really difficult thing to um to square off.
00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:53.550
Interestingly, when we do our study work at Rethink, there's allowances for working at cold temperatures.
00:18:53.630 --> 00:19:06.830
So if you're working at Chile, there are also allowances for working at high tenant heat, so it's inherent in um the modelling of labour, but in this country we don't particularly use the working at heat because we never had to.
00:19:07.070 --> 00:19:11.550
If you're in a supermarket working at a chiller, you need more time to do it because guess what, it's more difficult to work in.
00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:16.750
So that there are provisions for it to allow people to model that through.
00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:26.430
Um, but again, it becomes a challenge to shop, and the other thing, thinking back to that time, it's not nice for customers either.
00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:35.470
No, so you can do all you can for colleagues working at heat, the customers are still walking around in the same temperature as the colleagues, so there's a wide a wider infrastructure challenge.
00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:47.470
I mean, I I haven't got the data to prove it, but I'd love to know if stores which are south facing get more or less traffic into them.
00:19:47.710 --> 00:19:51.070
Do people actually walk on the shady side of the street and you're more likely to go in there?
00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:54.030
That'd be an interesting thing perhaps to look at.
00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:54.990
But yeah, you're right.
00:19:55.070 --> 00:19:58.270
So there's no statutory maximum working temperature.
00:19:58.350 --> 00:20:01.950
We have a lower end where we don't, it's very British.
00:20:02.030 --> 00:20:03.150
It just has to be reasonable.
00:20:03.310 --> 00:20:03.470
Yeah.
00:20:04.270 --> 00:20:07.950
And and reasonable could be going get yourself a glass of water and be back in two minutes.
00:20:09.070 --> 00:20:09.710
It's very low.
00:20:10.030 --> 00:20:12.030
Don't stand outside for a minute and then I'll want you back.
00:20:12.110 --> 00:20:25.790
But I mean it made me think: do we do we foresee a future where our shops operate more like than the continent where you go along at one o'clock and there's a sign saying back at three to be shopped later, do we shop earlier and things like that?
00:20:26.030 --> 00:20:28.990
I think it's probably a tricky one.
00:20:29.310 --> 00:20:34.750
We're we're slightly archaic still aren't we've got Sunday trading laws which don't particularly have a relevance anymore.
00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:39.870
So change in shopping habits and trading is something we're not great at as a nation.
00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:46.270
Um and and hopefully it'll change as economic pressure becomes greater to be open longer to take more money.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:52.590
I think for me it's back to that probably air conditioning debate with the the colleague in um in the States.
00:20:53.070 --> 00:21:00.509
We've not had to think about how we condition our stores, layouts, high streets for heat.
00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:02.830
Yeah, and and you're seeing that in footfall data.
00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:08.910
Yeah, the stuff we we do with um with Dye um from Rendal Intelligence.
00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:17.950
If you've listened to the podcast we did with DAI, when it gets hot, people tend to go to nice places, seaside historic places for an ice cream, a walk around, a bit of lunch.
00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:33.550
They also migrate to regional shopping centres, so your Trafford Centres, your Westfield, Stratfords, your White Cities, your Meadow Halls, because it's nice, it's cool, it's air conditioned, it's free parking, and you've got everything you want from shopping, food, um, you've also got bowling alleys, cinemas, etc.
00:21:33.710 --> 00:21:36.509
Now, so it's all in one roof and it's cool while you're in there.
00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:44.750
So you see that transition, um, but they also benefit when it's raining because it's all under one roof, it's cool, you've got everything there.
00:21:44.830 --> 00:21:49.790
So they're they're the places that see the the benefit of these, but they've got the infrastructure.
00:21:50.030 --> 00:22:01.150
Yeah, so if you're I don't know, Runcorn, that may be a bad choice, you know, somewhere with a big shopping centre near you, but not necessarily a historic beautiful town like Shrewsbury, yeah.
00:22:01.310 --> 00:22:03.470
You you you you're probably gonna get it squeezed.
00:22:03.550 --> 00:22:05.230
Um so I know you like talking.
00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:06.030
About data.
00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:08.030
I'm going to hit you with some data here.
00:22:08.830 --> 00:22:18.509
So Oxford Economics, they talk about the fact that a four-day heat wave can reduce quarterly labour productivity growth by one and a half percentage points.
00:22:18.830 --> 00:22:19.950
That's even higher in Europe.
00:22:20.270 --> 00:22:21.630
So we're looking at more up 2%.
00:22:22.350 --> 00:22:33.550
Another study showed that productivity losses intensify sharply above that 30 degrees threshold, which is likely to be that maximum statutory that we might talk about, which isn't that high.
00:22:33.790 --> 00:22:35.230
No, 30, 30 is not.
00:22:35.550 --> 00:22:37.390
You look at how many days you're above 30 this year.
00:22:37.870 --> 00:22:38.270
Exactly.
00:22:38.350 --> 00:22:41.310
So if it was set there, then then we're in trouble.
00:22:41.550 --> 00:22:45.070
And at the same time, we're seeing productivity losses.
00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:47.230
We're also seeing the cost of energy.
00:22:47.310 --> 00:22:52.990
So if we were to put more air conditioning in all things like that, that is going to cost money.
00:22:53.310 --> 00:23:01.390
And we saw over the summer the how challenging it was for grocers to keep their freezer departments, their chillers.
00:23:01.550 --> 00:23:06.910
I remember the Sainsbury's delivery turning up, and they said, I'm sorry, you have read your email.
00:23:07.070 --> 00:23:07.230
What?
00:23:07.310 --> 00:23:08.430
No, I never look at that.
00:23:08.590 --> 00:23:12.830
Yeah, we've got no no fresh or frozen goods for you.
00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:14.910
So that was a big problem over the summer.
00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:22.110
And I think it was a a probably a moment in time for lots of them.
00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:29.390
There's some that have invested in the infrastructure recently, and we won't name names, but lots of theirs weren't down.
00:23:29.630 --> 00:23:34.270
Um some the bigger chains maybe that are on the retail parks haven't.
00:23:34.430 --> 00:23:38.670
I think the thing I didn't understand is that a lot a lot of the infrastructure's on the roof.
00:23:38.750 --> 00:23:38.990
Yeah.
00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:44.750
So the fans, the venting, the compressors, um, so they just get baked.
00:23:45.070 --> 00:23:54.430
So it's not the fridge in the shop that's the problem, it's the infrastructure on the roof that's the problem that stops working, that then means the temperatures can't be sustained, that then means they need to take the food out.
00:23:54.590 --> 00:23:57.550
If the food's below temperature, it has to get thrown away and written off.
00:23:57.630 --> 00:23:58.270
There's a cost.
00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:03.470
You've still got stock coming in that you've ordered that you then can't put out, so that probably gets thrown away, that's a cost.
00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:10.670
And then you've got all the upward supply chain that's ordered weeks in advance that's piling in that nobody's selling, plus you're losing sales.
00:24:10.830 --> 00:24:29.390
So it's again a real dichotomy of if you're on a board with one of these companies now, are you thinking, you know, they'll all be talking about AI, cyber, should how we keep prevent our stores or keep our stores operating in high temperatures be on the agenda.
00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:37.550
There'll be a big cost to do that to stand still, but it's gonna come if the temperatures carry on and we maintain anywhere near what we've had.
00:24:37.790 --> 00:24:44.509
Um not sexy, not gonna make you any money, it's more about preventing lost sales, preventing waste.
00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:50.830
Um, and again, if you don't do it now, you'll probably end up doing it two, three, four, five years anyway, and it'll probably cost you more.
00:24:50.990 --> 00:25:03.950
So I get it, um from a productivity point of view, awful because you've ordered the stock, you've paid for the stock, you've put the stock out, you've then taken the stock off, you've then spent the time to write it off, you've then thrown it in the bin.
00:25:04.030 --> 00:25:09.630
So a complete waste of of making an end-to-end process from a customer experience point of view.
00:25:10.030 --> 00:25:20.830
How many people went to the supermarket this summer thinking, oh, we'll get some ice cream for the kids, um, we'll get a couple, we'll put them in the fridge because it's hot, we'll get um, I don't know, something from the chiller, and and you couldn't.
00:25:20.990 --> 00:25:21.310
Yeah.
00:25:21.550 --> 00:25:25.950
So do you just then I think a couple of times we went and we just didn't bother buying anything in the end.
00:25:26.030 --> 00:25:29.550
It was like, actually, we'll come back tomorrow or we'll go somewhere else.
00:25:29.710 --> 00:25:36.190
So there's a cost to it, a high cost, but as ever with these things, there's a big infrastructure investment to do it.
00:25:36.350 --> 00:25:46.110
Yeah, but you've wind that forward, and why wouldn't you have solar panels on the roof to make you more eco-friendly and to drive more energy efficiency if energy's going up?
00:25:46.270 --> 00:25:54.270
So yeah, it it unravels quickly, but at a significant cost when you've got a scale of large shops across the UK.
00:25:54.670 --> 00:26:00.670
So it's easier for new builds and stores of the future, much harder to match with and there's loads in store of the future.
00:26:00.830 --> 00:26:03.870
I've been around the Green King pub of the future, which is really good.
00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:08.990
Um, I'm gonna go see the BM one, which is which is good, uh, which will be good.
00:26:09.150 --> 00:26:12.910
Morrisons are doing some cool stuff with automated trolleys, but all this is about tech.
00:26:13.310 --> 00:26:17.230
It's not this is the most sustainable store we've ever built.
00:26:17.550 --> 00:26:21.070
Because typically it's just we've taken a store and took some stuff out and put some stuff in.
00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:22.830
It's not, it's got solar panels.
00:26:22.990 --> 00:26:28.030
I don't know, we're we're saving all the water for the sprinkler systems, we've got heat pumps, so we generate our own.
00:26:28.110 --> 00:26:32.990
You know, this store is carbon neutral and can operate in extreme hot and extreme cold.
00:26:33.070 --> 00:26:37.390
That's probably not part of the thinking because it's not as tangible.
00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:45.070
But the lost sales missed opportunities on the week on the week those happen, and everybody's kind of thinking, oh, maybe we should have invested in that.
00:26:45.390 --> 00:27:02.509
Well, that's I mean, it's not something that we look forward to necessarily, but but you know, of those future summers, then it is probably a permanent challenge now that does need to be addressed, it does need to be taken seriously, and um, we have to move beyond the fact that it was a one-off.
00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:05.230
Yeah, well, next year was gonna tell us, isn't it?
00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:07.630
It is, and then all of a sudden it's a trend.
00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:10.110
Yes, love a trend.
00:27:10.350 --> 00:27:23.710
So the third and final piece for us to talk about is um homogenous experiences, so it's the risk of everything broadly becoming the same, and uh takes us back to where we began when we're talking about AI.
00:27:24.430 --> 00:27:31.230
The everything risks moving towards the average, towards the mean, towards the most successful strategies.
00:27:31.310 --> 00:27:43.310
If we're all attempting to do the same things and we're all using the same emerging rule book, then there is now there will be some businesses who do this better, and we'll talk a little bit about football and sport here as we go through.
00:27:43.470 --> 00:27:48.750
Yeah, you know, your Brightons and your Brentfords clearly do something better than your Manchester United.
00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:53.390
So some people will do it better than than others.
00:27:53.870 --> 00:28:10.910
But given that environment where Heshware are becoming more and more likely due to the algorithm to be operating in in the same way, there is the sort of broader context to be thinking about, and I'm going to come to an article, and I don't know if you can post links on on the podcast.
00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:11.870
Excellent.
00:28:12.110 --> 00:28:28.590
So there's someone called um who writes in Substack called Adam Mastriani, and I first read his his first article um on this topic was the the decline of deviance in 2025, and he's come back this year and and done the second one.
00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:32.990
But the broad, and it's it's it's a gr they're both great articles.
00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:36.190
I love the fact there's data and there's stories, and it's quite funny.
00:28:36.350 --> 00:28:43.230
But a general summary of it would be that people are just generally less weird than we used to be.
00:28:43.310 --> 00:28:44.670
We are much more conventional.
00:28:44.830 --> 00:28:51.390
So he talks about things such as um, you know, we are less likely to smoke, yeah, we're less likely to drink.
00:28:51.550 --> 00:28:52.590
Yeah, we see that.
00:28:52.910 --> 00:29:00.750
We are, and I'm not encouraging this, we're less likely to be using heroin, we are less likely to suffer from serial killers.
00:29:00.830 --> 00:29:05.390
So we're generally the weirdos on the outskirts of society, we are seeing less of that.
00:29:05.550 --> 00:29:09.230
And then we're seeing the fact that people are less likely to leave home, etc.
00:29:09.390 --> 00:29:09.630
etc.
00:29:09.790 --> 00:29:21.310
Our lives are generally more conventional, but it's some of that driven by information, because if you think smoking's a classic one and drinking, it's much harder to drink underage now.
00:29:21.790 --> 00:29:24.110
It is so there's that's one thing.
00:29:24.270 --> 00:29:30.750
Um there's much more around the consequence of drinking a lot, and the cost of drinking is much more.
00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:33.550
So there's kind of some and and then you get to smoking.
00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:38.670
So in my day, your day slightly as well, probably.
00:29:38.830 --> 00:29:42.030
It was for this, isn't the sexist comment.
00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:47.790
I think there was lots of girls at school that smoked that thought it was cool, yeah, probably more so than boys.
00:29:48.110 --> 00:29:49.630
Now they're locked up.
00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:54.350
I've no idea how much a packet of cigarettes is 18, 20 quid is probably my guess.
00:29:54.750 --> 00:30:00.190
Um and when you do see them, they've got horrific pictures of lung disease on the front.
00:30:00.270 --> 00:30:00.509
Yeah.
00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:04.830
So there's a whole bunch of reasons, there's three for each of why it's probably not cool anymore.
00:30:04.990 --> 00:30:10.030
Well, they're interesting enough, like images of smoking have actually increased.
00:30:10.110 --> 00:30:10.270
Okay.
00:30:10.509 --> 00:30:18.270
So we are not smoking as much, but actually, there's a sort of move back to Instagram type images of movie stars smoking.
00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:26.910
But are you also touching on a topic which is important is that we also feel much more um under surveillance.
00:30:27.070 --> 00:30:28.509
So anybody can take a photo.
00:30:28.670 --> 00:30:44.030
Imagine young Simon, age 16, so apparently kids are not dancing anymore because the risk of dancing and that going viral and you're making a fool of yourself approaching that girl who's gonna say no, Simon.
00:30:44.190 --> 00:30:46.270
Um, you know, these things the wrong time.
00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:48.509
I'm talking to myself.
00:30:49.630 --> 00:30:59.470
So we in general, his his sort of moral is that we've lost something along the way because everything has become more standardized, more safe.
00:30:59.550 --> 00:31:08.030
And you can see this in some Airbnbs or the colours of cars, or or or maybe even the design and structure of coffee shops.
00:31:08.350 --> 00:31:23.070
And we'll we'll get without getting too deep, but is that because of the fear of, like you said, somebody something going viral on social that you become you know, those people on that Kiss Cam at Coldplay never gonna live that down, are they?
00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:31.470
They can probably make a lot of money off the back of it, but it the consequence of that going viral has you know killed their relationships and and a whole bunch of other stuff.
00:31:31.710 --> 00:31:40.509
Yes, no, the the consequences of of being caught doing the wrong thing, but that's also being felt in business as well.
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:50.990
So again, as costs rise, the risks become greater, and yes, the world increasingly feels, looks, and sounds the same.
00:31:51.150 --> 00:32:08.430
So we see this in music, we see this in in stores, for example, and in some ways that's really good because what you don't want to do is for both your employees or your customers to provide something that they just don't recognise, they don't know how it functions, they can't get it to work.
00:32:08.509 --> 00:32:16.670
You you wouldn't get Pablo Picasso in to retrofit your store, for example, because everybody would go mad.
00:32:16.830 --> 00:32:23.550
So there is a lot of sense in that, but this sort of risk around saying this so has been around for a little while.
00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:35.550
So in 2007, there was uh an internal Starbucks memoirs that went viral, that got leaked, which was called the Commoditisation of the Starbucks experience.
00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:46.110
So, in that memo, he was telling to his employees about the fact that automation streamlining had risked and had made Starbucks forgettable.
00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:49.310
The Starbucks experience had generally been watered down.
00:32:49.630 --> 00:32:53.470
Now, back into sport, that's a topic we both like talking about.
00:32:53.550 --> 00:32:56.030
I don't think there is a podcast in it, but we'll see.
00:32:56.270 --> 00:33:09.390
Um, you know, we are seeing that there is data proving that if you were to go back 10-15 years ago, where people took a chance at a shot to score a hope in in basketball, people have stopped doing that now.
00:33:09.550 --> 00:33:11.790
Everybody is going to exactly the same place.
00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:17.790
I think last season in the Premier League was the season with the fewest long-range goals.
00:33:18.110 --> 00:33:26.509
But that's all based on this um XG and your probability of yeah, Pep Guardiola passes to death because he wants to get the ball in the box.
00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:27.550
So you look at Jack Greelish.
00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:28.670
He knows that's going to be successful.
00:33:28.910 --> 00:33:34.430
He doesn't want Jack Grealish running up the wing and tearing it apart because he knows that he'll nine out of ten times lose the ball.
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:37.230
He wants him to go stop, move back, keep possession.
00:33:37.550 --> 00:33:38.270
Safety first.
00:33:38.350 --> 00:33:50.110
Yeah, safety, possession, control, dangerous possession in the box because you're more likely to get a mistake, get a deflection, than you hit it from 30 yards and one in a hundred screams in the top corner.
00:33:50.270 --> 00:33:55.390
Yeah, and I'm not saying football is less interesting, but there are fewer characters.
00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:58.509
There are probably fewer, I don't know, drop your sandwich moments.
00:33:58.750 --> 00:34:01.070
There's fewer clever, there's fewer memorable games.
00:34:01.310 --> 00:34:01.870
Exactly.
00:34:02.030 --> 00:34:05.230
It's exciting, but there's there's probably the same model.
00:34:05.390 --> 00:34:17.309
I mean, look at last season where suddenly throw-ins, someone disrupted the algorithm, they had suddenly had to cope with something that they hadn't coped with, and so something will come to disrupt, but then that's been solved for now.
00:34:17.389 --> 00:34:18.589
Yeah, everybody can solve it.
00:34:18.750 --> 00:34:20.589
And it depends on the update, doesn't it?
00:34:20.909 --> 00:34:24.190
Is that seen as a good thing or it's anti-football?
00:34:24.349 --> 00:34:47.150
Yeah, the teams that will will stick on football slightly, but there's teams that will all of a sudden go with two strikers and play long ball and it'll be anti-football, but it'll disrupt because defenders aren't used to to marking two centre fours, they're not used to somebody flicking it onto the guy who puts it in the you know, and it all becomes cyclical because then everybody starts to do it, and then somebody will then move back to passing it around the back again.
00:34:47.389 --> 00:34:49.150
It's um it's trends, isn't it?
00:34:49.309 --> 00:34:53.150
It is trend, but operating in the same way until someone disrupts.
00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:59.389
So, and there's it's also successful football, so there's little incentive to change, everybody's making quite a bit of money.
00:34:59.549 --> 00:35:07.469
So there's also the fact that we can often see that if something is recycled or repeated, the less culturally relevant it becomes.
00:35:07.549 --> 00:35:11.869
And there's a great article by Stephanie Winkler about the run club effect.
00:35:12.190 --> 00:35:23.629
So, first of all, some brands decided to offer a run club associated or sponsoring a run club, and then everybody started doing something about run clubs, and then it just became boring.
00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:25.150
And there's always a risk with that.
00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:28.269
Mark Ritson talks about the same thing for films.
00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:37.469
So we've had all these franchises, we've had these sequels, because that is where the big film uh players, you know, that's where they're going to put their best bets.
00:35:37.629 --> 00:35:48.909
So, yes, you'll get a Spider-Man over the summer, um, but you'll also get an Odyssey, and you'll also, even more interestingly, get an obsession or a backrooms.
00:35:48.989 --> 00:35:53.469
Although I was a bit iffy about backrooms, I have to say, this is not a Digger's the one they're all talking about now.
00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:54.509
It's the biggest failure.
00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:57.629
It's had a one-star and a five-star in the same week.
00:35:57.869 --> 00:35:58.509
Oh, right, okay.
00:35:58.750 --> 00:35:59.789
So I'd you could work that out.
00:36:00.190 --> 00:36:02.429
Maybe some people will like it, I'm not sure.
00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:06.829
Ritson also talks about the fact that we're looking for something different, so something on the edges.
00:36:07.069 --> 00:36:20.029
He talks about soft drinks, which is where we began that yes, Coke and Pepsi are super successful, but Gen Z are moving towards brands that perhaps their parents' generation didn't use.
00:36:20.109 --> 00:36:26.750
I was talking to a gaming company recently, and there's the risk with them that it is something that their parents did.
00:36:26.829 --> 00:36:29.150
It's like Facebook, it's not for them.
00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:33.150
So, again, thinking of the new angle and keeping things fresh.
00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:40.429
So, as everything becomes kind of the same, so what can businesses or brands do?
00:36:40.670 --> 00:36:42.989
Maybe Swap Brothers is a really good example of this.
00:36:43.069 --> 00:36:52.829
So, so what keeps you distinct, and often it is the brand itself, it's the principles, it's the values, it's the identity of the brands.
00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:57.389
So that becomes more and more important in this sort of homogeneous experience world.
00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:03.469
Part of that is how do you show that you care for your customers, but also your employees.
00:37:03.549 --> 00:37:04.750
So, how do you speak to them?
00:37:04.829 --> 00:37:08.429
How do you speak to them about their lives for your customers?
00:37:08.670 --> 00:37:14.429
Do you represent who your customers want themselves to be, let alone what they want you to be?
00:37:15.549 --> 00:37:20.429
It's tricky, it's tricky because if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it, wouldn't they?
00:37:20.589 --> 00:37:39.309
And I I back to the kind of social thing about smoking, and there's that whole Instagram of perception is reality, so it could could be great, but isn't perceived to be great, or it might not be that great, but it is perceived to be so you can't please all the people all the time, can you?
00:37:39.389 --> 00:37:40.829
That that's the challenge.
00:37:41.150 --> 00:37:48.670
But a couple of bad reviews has a significant impact if it goes viral, a couple of good reviews has a significant impact if it goes viral.
00:37:48.909 --> 00:37:53.230
Um I think the big problem is hey, you keep that relevancy going forward.
00:37:54.269 --> 00:38:02.750
So if you do something slightly different and it works, it's really tricky to find the next thing to do slightly different because everyone starts copying and cloning it.
00:38:03.230 --> 00:38:05.150
Al Dee and Little are great examples, aren't they?
00:38:05.309 --> 00:38:14.509
How many of their brands are really close in terms of the they really step on the edges of probably copyright infringement for the way things look, what they're called?
00:38:14.589 --> 00:38:17.230
They do a beer that's very, very similar to a brew dog one.
00:38:17.309 --> 00:38:37.389
There's lots of packaging that would be very similar to they do th they do packaging of sausages that are very similar to premium brands of sausages, so they're just following that trend and are very good at doing it very quickly and just enough different to it to be not end up in court all the time.
00:38:37.629 --> 00:38:47.469
But there's also with Aldi, it's an interesting case study, the the whole magic aisle piece is something which is different for them, and no one's really attempted to adopt that, but they haven't stood still on it.
00:38:47.549 --> 00:38:53.710
I don't know if you saw in the summer that they've launched these sort of mystery boxes and bags.
00:38:53.949 --> 00:38:58.750
So you buy this thing and you don't know what's inside of it, okay, which is quite cool.
00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:15.230
So again, I think that they're early adopters in thinking, well, people like the mystery of what the hell is gonna be then, you know, scuba diving equipment and chainsaw, and then they're gonna put it in a bag, and the customer doesn't know what is in there, it could be you know the own brand um baked beans.
00:39:15.389 --> 00:39:18.909
So I think with all of these, I'm gonna wrap up.
00:39:18.989 --> 00:39:27.629
Yeah, um, of all of these, the obviously my my world is is research and surveys, and I'm not here to say that's a bad thing.
00:39:27.789 --> 00:39:34.989
Research and surveys is really important, but we've kind of lost the ability to think about how something feels.
00:39:35.389 --> 00:39:42.509
Yeah, everything is boiled down to being a metric that we can track, and it is probably the wrong way around.
00:39:42.589 --> 00:39:59.949
If I was talking to any business, I'd be thinking about talking to them about the fact that it's the actions and behaviors of the employees and the customers that's really important, it's not the EX score or or the MPS of customers, and it's the resulting economic outcomes of those movements.
00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:09.309
And research needs to move back into the why something is happening, which is why I always talk about the fact that CX does not operate in a vacuum.
00:40:09.469 --> 00:40:18.190
Yeah, you've got to be thinking about all the external factors that are impacting, and um, it's not about scores and KPIs.
00:40:18.989 --> 00:40:19.549
Perfect.
00:40:19.629 --> 00:40:21.789
Well, that's episode one done.
00:40:22.029 --> 00:40:24.829
Um, and we'll be back in a couple of weeks with episode two.
00:40:25.069 --> 00:40:25.710
Thanks, Simon.
00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:26.589
Cheers, Simon.
00:00:05.629 --> 00:00:15.149
Welcome to our new podcast Rethink in CX with my co-host, who I'm sure you'll know from previous episodes of the Rethink Productivity podcast, Simon Fraser.
00:00:15.469 --> 00:00:16.190
Hello, Simon.
00:00:16.269 --> 00:00:16.669
How are you?
00:00:16.829 --> 00:00:17.070
Good.
00:00:17.149 --> 00:00:19.230
We should have just called this the Simon, shouldn't we?
00:00:19.309 --> 00:00:21.070
But um we we got there with a name.
00:00:21.230 --> 00:00:32.189
So we're gonna focus on that blend of productivity, customer experience, which is where your expertise is and talk about relevant relevant topics and things that are top of mind.
00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.869
So I will hand over to you to start us off on the first episode.
00:00:36.109 --> 00:00:37.229
Brilliant, thanks, Simon.
00:00:37.310 --> 00:00:45.149
Um, first of all, we're saying that uh as I left home this morning, my wife said to me, Um, this isn't you're not on camera for this, are you?
00:00:45.230 --> 00:00:48.109
So no, we're not we're not at that world of of podcasts yet.
00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:48.910
We can't.
00:00:49.070 --> 00:00:54.109
No, no, I think that's let's leave ourselves to the imagination of the of the listeners.
00:00:54.270 --> 00:01:07.789
So um, yeah, one of the things I I love doing in in my role is to think about and talk about changes in the sort of macro forces, the environment that businesses and customers are operating in.
00:01:08.030 --> 00:01:16.189
And so we're going to look back a little bit on the summer that we've just had and two topics that have almost been inescapable.
00:01:16.349 --> 00:01:24.189
So one around agentic shopping, and the other one around, well, wasn't that a really nice summer that we've had sunshine-wise?
00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:29.709
But actually, what are the implications further on down the line for business and operations?
00:01:29.870 --> 00:01:38.510
And then we're gonna end with a broader conversation um about the risk of sameness in experience.
00:01:38.670 --> 00:01:41.709
And I want to say homogenous, and I've managed to say that word properly.
00:01:41.870 --> 00:01:42.989
So we'll get there.
00:01:43.150 --> 00:01:43.469
Yep.
00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:54.590
So the first one let's say I want to talk about this whole switch from SEO through to GEO, and there's been lots of conferences, lots of GEO, just explain it for people.
00:01:54.829 --> 00:02:00.430
Sorry, yeah, generative engine optimization in comparison to search engine optimization.
00:02:00.590 --> 00:02:18.269
So the fact that actually more and more of us are using um Gen AI, your your your Gemini's, your chat GPTs, your copilots, in order to get recommendations as to where to shop, where to eat, um, and and and all the rest.
00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:27.229
So increasingly more and more search traffic is coming from those sort of AI searches rather than traditional sort of Google and things like that.
00:02:27.469 --> 00:02:41.789
Um, now one of the implications of that is that businesses and brands are having to really think about how they can shape the experiences and their visibility in a way that AI and agents like.
00:02:42.269 --> 00:02:50.989
So there's two areas in particular that drive your likelihood to be called out early or you know sooner in terms of those recommendations.
00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:58.509
So one being relevance, so relevance in terms of the sorts of experience that people are looking for, but also trust.
00:02:58.589 --> 00:03:19.309
So we've come sort of full circle where experiences, which is what I've been mainly working in for the last 15 years, and reviews and forums and all those sorts of things, like feedback, are now being used in order to build up trust and again be more likely that the system is going to choose you.
00:03:19.549 --> 00:03:22.509
So managing those signals becomes really important.
00:03:23.069 --> 00:03:35.789
But actually, the focus is now moving away from just filtering of recommendations and the way that most people are using it through to the whole agentic side of AI.
00:03:38.189 --> 00:03:42.189
Does that drive false behaviours though?
00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:57.949
So we've all heard about false Google reviews and people spamming it so you get five stars, and that must then trigger the algorithm to pick that up and say, Well, this one always gets five stars local to you, it's great when actually it's not a true reflection of what happens.
00:03:58.189 --> 00:04:05.149
Yeah, I mean the mix of things which are going into the algorithm, uh yes, reviews is part of that.
00:04:06.029 --> 00:04:11.789
And yes, there will always be some gamification, but I would say that is still on the edges.
00:04:11.949 --> 00:04:12.269
Yep.
00:04:12.429 --> 00:04:18.189
I don't think I think we have to have some back to trust that actually the recommendations are are valid.
00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:32.349
And I would say, and I don't know about your experiences, Simon, nine times out of ten, it is making the right choices for me in a way that I don't think search engine optimization or purely using Google reviews does.
00:04:32.669 --> 00:04:38.669
It's back to probably yeah, I think it's back to what you classes experience for you, though, isn't it?
00:04:38.829 --> 00:04:43.870
So, like all these things, if you give it a good prompt, you'll get a good answer.
00:04:44.029 --> 00:04:47.069
So, is your experience based on speed?
00:04:47.229 --> 00:04:48.589
Is it based on price?
00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:49.870
Is it based on comfort?
00:04:49.949 --> 00:04:50.990
Is it based on atmosphere?
00:04:51.069 --> 00:04:52.750
Is it based on quality?
00:04:52.829 --> 00:04:53.389
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:56.029
Um, where the the place is.
00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:02.589
Um, as you know, we've kind of opened Spubros Express in Swindon as part of the catch-and-co business.
00:05:02.909 --> 00:05:15.149
That's a really interesting case study because it's a really tricky mix of experience, speed, quality, um, and we don't have any seats, so you go and eat you go and eat in the food hall.
00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:21.949
So the the atmosphere is what you see in that four or five minutes because it's viral, you queue to get there.
00:05:22.269 --> 00:05:29.310
So it's a really tricky dichotomy of people are queuing for 40 minutes because that's just the virality of it.
00:05:29.629 --> 00:05:36.909
You get there from a business point of view, we want to move them through quickly because we want the queues to go and people not to wait as long.
00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:49.870
But from an experience point of view, you want them to experience the team, experience the product, go through the process of picking your top in, seeing it go on, asking a few questions about stuff, having a photo on the way out, which is what they do.
00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:54.349
So it's a tricky one to put in a search engine or an a genetic engine.
00:05:55.389 --> 00:06:06.589
So that is again the context and the back to the relevance piece that the search annual DA or the GEO needs to understand what is the experience that Spud Brothers offers.
00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:09.789
But we'll we'll get reviews that say food great long way.
00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:10.349
Yeah.
00:06:10.509 --> 00:06:14.349
And it's kind of the weight is because it's viral at this moment.
00:06:14.669 --> 00:06:17.709
Um, and we'll get others that say the whole thing was great.
00:06:17.949 --> 00:06:20.430
So some of it is your expectation as you go.
00:06:20.669 --> 00:06:21.389
Yes, yeah.
00:06:21.789 --> 00:06:30.509
And and again, back to whatever someone is putting into those uh large language models in terms of what exactly is that they're looking for.
00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:37.310
You're obviously not going to come up if you say, I'm after a romantic meal with my partner and candlelight and stuff like that.
00:06:37.550 --> 00:06:38.269
You're not gonna send you.
00:06:38.909 --> 00:06:41.469
It's probably not your choice at that moment.
00:06:42.029 --> 00:06:43.629
Maybe you're just comfortable.
00:06:44.509 --> 00:06:47.069
Send the kids there while you go, but yeah, that's fine.
00:06:47.229 --> 00:06:55.469
Um, so so that whole piece around um visibility in the the engines is really important.
00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:07.709
But where we're seeing, and I I would say this is still early adopters or first movers, is the fact that people are using the whole agentic flow to go all the way through to transactions.
00:07:07.870 --> 00:07:15.789
So stepping out and allowing the machine to complete the loop rather than you having to, oh well, I've got that, now I'm gonna do the next thing.
00:07:15.949 --> 00:07:17.789
You can actually go all the way through.
00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:31.629
It'll based on again what you put in, it'll find it, stress test it with you, then maybe book it the reservation, say it's anniversary, it's wedding, it's birthday, it's a special night out.
00:07:32.829 --> 00:07:35.629
I suppose, will it do the review at the end?
00:07:35.709 --> 00:07:40.029
Would you be able to feed it and say it was a really good experience write the review, or is that a step too far?
00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:41.949
I it's a really good question.
00:07:42.110 --> 00:07:44.589
Will they complete a survey on your behalf?
00:07:44.669 --> 00:07:46.990
Um I just hope not.
00:07:47.550 --> 00:07:49.629
Although, I mean, you might talk about it.
00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:52.750
The the voice of the agent might be the future.
00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:58.509
I imagine it will stay in that more sort of user-testing UX piece.
00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:08.589
But as always, with those pieces, you you often need a survey or some other research to understand well actually why did they feel that way and why did they behave?
00:08:08.750 --> 00:08:15.310
So maybe, maybe voice of the agent is uh is the next landmark for us all.
00:08:15.469 --> 00:08:16.269
Um we'll see.
00:08:16.430 --> 00:08:30.909
Yeah, so so what we're seeing, a bit like the Spud Brothers piece, that we're seeing that brands and businesses are recognising the fact that they need to provide a lot more product detail in order to help with those transactions.
00:08:31.069 --> 00:08:41.149
There was a big splash, I imagine, um, sponsored by the Cotswold company over over the summer in terms of how they're sort of leading the category in terms of how they're thinking about AI.
00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:47.069
But they are sort of sharing and pushing through their product details into these large language models.
00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:57.710
So things like where it was sourced, where the material's from, how it was shipped, yes, every that whole potential way that that could be asked um um in in terms of making sure that it appears to be relevant.
00:08:57.789 --> 00:08:59.149
You've got to cover all bases.
00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:00.429
So we're seeing a lot of that.
00:09:00.590 --> 00:09:08.350
If you look at the North Face, like their website is I can see that if you look in the jackets, it says sort of man-male.
00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:17.870
So we almost are going to cover both bases there, but it will also talk about that these shoes are good for hiking in rainy conditions.
00:09:18.110 --> 00:09:25.789
So again, if someone is putting in, hey, I'm going hiking in Snowdon, it's likely to rain, then it is more likely to come up.
00:09:26.429 --> 00:09:34.909
Does that make it does that almost drive the behaviour then that you can get a better experience shopping online because you've got more information than in a store?
00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:38.990
Now I get in a store for North Face Jackets for example, you want to try it on, get your size.
00:09:39.069 --> 00:09:41.069
If you've had one before, you might know.
00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:52.990
But the colleagues probably aren't armed with that information at hand, they'll have it because the company will give it, but maybe you're more equipped, which probably is controversial thing to say, shopping online.
00:09:53.149 --> 00:09:55.710
It could be more curated, yeah, definitely.
00:09:55.870 --> 00:10:03.389
Um, and that will be a challenge for physical only retailers, although there are very few of them left.
00:10:03.470 --> 00:10:04.669
I mean, even Prime Markets now.
00:10:05.149 --> 00:10:09.230
And North Face is a good example, great brand, obviously part of VF, are they?
00:10:09.389 --> 00:10:10.029
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:10.269 --> 00:10:12.350
Few physical locations in the UK.
00:10:12.429 --> 00:10:18.350
I can probably think of the one just off Oxford Circus coupling outlets and stuff.
00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:23.710
So they're targeting big cities, prime footfall.
00:10:23.949 --> 00:10:26.029
So I suspect a lot of their sales are online anyway.
00:10:26.189 --> 00:10:30.909
The absolutely all through all three partners, all three partners, yeah, yeah, like JD Sports or other people.
00:10:31.069 --> 00:10:32.029
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:33.710
We could talk about North Face.
00:10:34.590 --> 00:10:38.189
But we won't because I think that's an interesting case study.
00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:50.110
Um, there's also the piece around the fact that you might have all the product details, but you've then got to make your websites more crawlable for these AI pieces.
00:10:50.269 --> 00:11:10.509
There was a good story um, again on LinkedIn, that um someone was using the on-running websites and it got through to almost the point of transaction, but the agent couldn't find a way to click on the buy button, so the site had not been set up for these sort of modern conditions of how these agents might want to work.
00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:44.990
There was another story around the fact that ASOS has built an agent, like a stylist, onto onto their site, and at some point during the transaction, um the customer or the agent started asking about fragrances, and ASOS doesn't sell fragrances, so it was actually ushered the customer off the ASOS website to the Tom Ford website in order to go and buy date that yeah, although ASOS currently having a few problems with the recent hack of the pop-up, but check your details, yeah.
00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:45.710
Absolutely.
00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:47.629
So I think this is really interesting.
00:11:47.789 --> 00:11:51.069
I it is an early mover piece here.
00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:55.069
There will be businesses that will get this right and will get the benefits of it.
00:11:55.230 --> 00:11:59.549
There were others that are not going to get this right and are going to no doubt learn.
00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:04.189
I would say it's is similar to that whole move towards social commerce.
00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:08.990
So the likes of John Lewis now making themselves available on TikTok shop.
00:12:09.389 --> 00:12:15.870
Um, and I like this phrase that sort of you're now having to meet customers in the apps that they're already using.
00:12:16.189 --> 00:12:20.350
So you have to go to them, you can't expect them to come back to you.
00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:22.669
So I think it's an interesting area.
00:12:22.909 --> 00:12:32.029
I would like to think in a future rethink and um CX, we might get someone on from a digital expertise background who can talk more about this.
00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:33.870
So that would be a great session.
00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.110
Yeah, the the website's more crawlable.
00:12:36.189 --> 00:12:45.470
Again, it's something at Rethink, our marketing team are looking at, and there's a whole world that I don't understand about it, but yeah, it's the next gen on from SEO.
00:12:45.629 --> 00:12:55.230
It needs to be optimized now for AI because obviously, when people are typing something in related to productivity, we want it to reference us and link to the website and all that stuff.
00:12:55.389 --> 00:13:05.949
So just yeah, the the next generation on, and once we've done that, there'll be the next next generation on that uh yeah, and they can go onto your website, Simon, and and click yes, commission.
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:07.949
I'm buying that project, and I'm happy to do it.
00:13:08.509 --> 00:13:09.549
I'm happy with that.
00:13:09.789 --> 00:13:10.830
I'm happy with that.
00:13:10.990 --> 00:13:22.029
So let's move into the next topic, which is as we I suppose heading towards um autumn, a bit of a reflection on the nice summer we've had.
00:13:22.189 --> 00:13:24.429
So it was lovely for a long time.
00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:29.629
I I don't think anybody woke up and went, Oh no, another dry, sunny day.
00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:39.470
Um, I heard on the radio yesterday it was the first day for a hundred days in the UK that there wasn't a single part of the country above 20 degrees.
00:13:39.549 --> 00:13:39.710
Yeah.
00:13:39.870 --> 00:13:42.509
So we've had a hundred days of that in the dry summer.
00:13:42.990 --> 00:13:46.509
I'm sure we'll pay the price with a harsh winter or wet.
00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:51.389
Wet winter, windy winter, snow, snow seems to be the thing that's gone missing.
00:13:51.470 --> 00:13:57.389
It's yeah, wet, wet and windy then into tonight, which is not a bad, not a bad compromise.
00:13:58.429 --> 00:14:02.110
Yes, as long as it's a bit of sunshine, a bit of sunshine every so often.
00:14:02.269 --> 00:14:25.389
So um, in before I went into CX, I worked in in FMCG, our CPG, the Nielsen company, and we would often look at or be asked about the impact of weather on consumer and customer choices, and always come back to the same three stories that um we will be more likely to eat biscuits or buy biscuits when it's rainy.
00:14:25.629 --> 00:14:28.110
So our biscuit consumption rockets.
00:14:28.189 --> 00:14:38.590
Um because it's a comfort food, and you're feeling a bit crappy about the world, so you'll go and reach for a Bourbon or maybe something nicer, hobnob.
00:14:38.750 --> 00:14:40.189
Hognop, chocolate hobnob.
00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:40.590
No, no.
00:14:41.149 --> 00:14:41.949
Let's let's get back.
00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:44.750
Um soft drinks.
00:14:44.909 --> 00:14:54.990
Um, so as the temperature rises above 21 degrees, you're more likely to reach for a smaller format in a chiller rather than a two-litre bottle in an ambient.
00:14:55.069 --> 00:14:58.909
So that again triggers different behaviours and even grosser choice.
00:14:59.069 --> 00:15:18.830
So um Sainsbury's used to talk about the fact that they knew they would that they could forecast a good weekend if the weather was going to be sunny, because customers have an image of freshness about Sainsbury's and it drives more traffic into their stores onto their website when the weather is better.
00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.230
So that is kind of well known.
00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:32.029
But we're now starting to see and needing to look at weather or climate from the perspective of employees, but also from an infrastructure point of view.
00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:40.429
So um, you know, this change in the weather, as much as we can predict, looks like it is our new reality.
00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:47.470
It's not just a one-off, you know, like three years ago when we had 40 degrees, we got quite close to that again.
00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:50.990
Yeah, and it seems like this is likely to continue to be.
00:15:51.069 --> 00:15:57.069
So this is not just an environmental issue anymore, it's an operation, it's uh it's a business one.
00:15:57.470 --> 00:16:10.750
So, yeah, so the summer we've just enjoyed, but imagine temperature continues to rise and it's every summer, and it's not so much a sort of one-off sort of dreamy moment, but it becomes a bit relentless.
00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:12.269
Start an air conditioning business.
00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:13.230
That's the kick.
00:16:13.710 --> 00:16:22.990
I was speaking to a guy who we do some work within the States earlier this week, and he's never been to the UK, and I was saying, you know, it's been we're in October at the time recording.
00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:28.830
I've been in London in a t-shirt for you know five days, and he was saying, Oh, you you must how do you find that?
00:16:28.909 --> 00:16:33.470
I said, Well, we don't have AC like you do, because there pretty much every house has got it.
00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:52.590
Obviously, um, restaurants can be really chilly if you've ever been, and you kind of take a jumper because it's that cold, and he could absolutely not get his head around why, as a country, we didn't have that as almost baseline infrastructure, and it's then I kind of have to say, because we don't really get historically warm weather for a sustainable period of time.
00:16:52.909 --> 00:16:54.350
Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:54.509 --> 00:17:00.990
Um, I mean, as a it's a double-edged sword introducing more air conditioning as well, but yeah, again, we probably won't go there.
00:17:01.149 --> 00:17:08.750
But to your point, our infrastructure just wasn't built to cope with the sort of summers that that we're likely to have.
00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:17.790
And obviously, we talked at the beginning that we're wanting to look here at the intersection with CX and productivity, and I think weather is one of those areas.
00:17:17.870 --> 00:17:29.230
So if you think back to those hot nights of the summer, you're likely to become more disruptive in terms of your sleep patterns, you may even become sleep deprived if you haven't got air conditioning.
00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:33.790
But then, if you're going to try to get somewhere, it's likely that public transport has failed.
00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:43.870
So, lots of stories, particularly in the southeast, around the fact that the ground beneath the tracks are dry to such an extent that the metal had buckled.
00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:45.390
So things like that.
00:17:45.550 --> 00:17:51.150
Um, and generally, if you're working outdoors, that become became almost impossible to do.
00:17:51.310 --> 00:17:58.990
So the knock-on effect that is reduced hours, reduced effort, which is going to impact economic growth.
00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:03.470
So it is likely that we are going to have to make some adjustments going forward.
00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:09.070
So we're going to have to plan differently, and we're going to have to have some flexibility in our in our models.
00:18:09.310 --> 00:18:25.070
Yeah, I think the government have obviously talked about maximum working temperatures, which from an employee point of view, I get having run stores, um, certainly those big sheds in retail parks 25 years ago, they become a greenhouse.
00:18:25.310 --> 00:18:29.630
You've got a metal roof with minimal ventilation and the sun's beating down on it.
00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:33.230
So from an employee point of view, yes.
00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:39.630
From a consumer point of view, we need to be careful what we wish for because if there's not people in the shops, we can't go to the shops.
00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:39.870
Yeah.
00:18:40.110 --> 00:18:42.830
Um, if they need more staff, then prices go up.
00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:47.950
So economically, it that's a really difficult thing to um to square off.
00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:53.550
Interestingly, when we do our study work at Rethink, there's allowances for working at cold temperatures.
00:18:53.630 --> 00:19:06.830
So if you're working at Chile, there are also allowances for working at high tenant heat, so it's inherent in um the modelling of labour, but in this country we don't particularly use the working at heat because we never had to.
00:19:07.070 --> 00:19:11.550
If you're in a supermarket working at a chiller, you need more time to do it because guess what, it's more difficult to work in.
00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:16.750
So that there are provisions for it to allow people to model that through.
00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:26.430
Um, but again, it becomes a challenge to shop, and the other thing, thinking back to that time, it's not nice for customers either.
00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:35.470
No, so you can do all you can for colleagues working at heat, the customers are still walking around in the same temperature as the colleagues, so there's a wide a wider infrastructure challenge.
00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:47.470
I mean, I I haven't got the data to prove it, but I'd love to know if stores which are south facing get more or less traffic into them.
00:19:47.710 --> 00:19:51.070
Do people actually walk on the shady side of the street and you're more likely to go in there?
00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:54.030
That'd be an interesting thing perhaps to look at.
00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:54.990
But yeah, you're right.
00:19:55.070 --> 00:19:58.270
So there's no statutory maximum working temperature.
00:19:58.350 --> 00:20:01.950
We have a lower end where we don't, it's very British.
00:20:02.030 --> 00:20:03.150
It just has to be reasonable.
00:20:03.310 --> 00:20:03.470
Yeah.
00:20:04.270 --> 00:20:07.950
And and reasonable could be going get yourself a glass of water and be back in two minutes.
00:20:09.070 --> 00:20:09.710
It's very low.
00:20:10.030 --> 00:20:12.030
Don't stand outside for a minute and then I'll want you back.
00:20:12.110 --> 00:20:25.790
But I mean it made me think: do we do we foresee a future where our shops operate more like than the continent where you go along at one o'clock and there's a sign saying back at three to be shopped later, do we shop earlier and things like that?
00:20:26.030 --> 00:20:28.990
I think it's probably a tricky one.
00:20:29.310 --> 00:20:34.750
We're we're slightly archaic still aren't we've got Sunday trading laws which don't particularly have a relevance anymore.
00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:39.870
So change in shopping habits and trading is something we're not great at as a nation.
00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:46.270
Um and and hopefully it'll change as economic pressure becomes greater to be open longer to take more money.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:52.590
I think for me it's back to that probably air conditioning debate with the the colleague in um in the States.
00:20:53.070 --> 00:21:00.509
We've not had to think about how we condition our stores, layouts, high streets for heat.
00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:02.830
Yeah, and and you're seeing that in footfall data.
00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:08.910
Yeah, the stuff we we do with um with Dye um from Rendal Intelligence.
00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:17.950
If you've listened to the podcast we did with DAI, when it gets hot, people tend to go to nice places, seaside historic places for an ice cream, a walk around, a bit of lunch.
00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:33.550
They also migrate to regional shopping centres, so your Trafford Centres, your Westfield, Stratfords, your White Cities, your Meadow Halls, because it's nice, it's cool, it's air conditioned, it's free parking, and you've got everything you want from shopping, food, um, you've also got bowling alleys, cinemas, etc.
00:21:33.710 --> 00:21:36.509
Now, so it's all in one roof and it's cool while you're in there.
00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:44.750
So you see that transition, um, but they also benefit when it's raining because it's all under one roof, it's cool, you've got everything there.
00:21:44.830 --> 00:21:49.790
So they're they're the places that see the the benefit of these, but they've got the infrastructure.
00:21:50.030 --> 00:22:01.150
Yeah, so if you're I don't know, Runcorn, that may be a bad choice, you know, somewhere with a big shopping centre near you, but not necessarily a historic beautiful town like Shrewsbury, yeah.
00:22:01.310 --> 00:22:03.470
You you you you're probably gonna get it squeezed.
00:22:03.550 --> 00:22:05.230
Um so I know you like talking.
00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:06.030
About data.
00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:08.030
I'm going to hit you with some data here.
00:22:08.830 --> 00:22:18.509
So Oxford Economics, they talk about the fact that a four-day heat wave can reduce quarterly labour productivity growth by one and a half percentage points.
00:22:18.830 --> 00:22:19.950
That's even higher in Europe.
00:22:20.270 --> 00:22:21.630
So we're looking at more up 2%.
00:22:22.350 --> 00:22:33.550
Another study showed that productivity losses intensify sharply above that 30 degrees threshold, which is likely to be that maximum statutory that we might talk about, which isn't that high.
00:22:33.790 --> 00:22:35.230
No, 30, 30 is not.
00:22:35.550 --> 00:22:37.390
You look at how many days you're above 30 this year.
00:22:37.870 --> 00:22:38.270
Exactly.
00:22:38.350 --> 00:22:41.310
So if it was set there, then then we're in trouble.
00:22:41.550 --> 00:22:45.070
And at the same time, we're seeing productivity losses.
00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:47.230
We're also seeing the cost of energy.
00:22:47.310 --> 00:22:52.990
So if we were to put more air conditioning in all things like that, that is going to cost money.
00:22:53.310 --> 00:23:01.390
And we saw over the summer the how challenging it was for grocers to keep their freezer departments, their chillers.
00:23:01.550 --> 00:23:06.910
I remember the Sainsbury's delivery turning up, and they said, I'm sorry, you have read your email.
00:23:07.070 --> 00:23:07.230
What?
00:23:07.310 --> 00:23:08.430
No, I never look at that.
00:23:08.590 --> 00:23:12.830
Yeah, we've got no no fresh or frozen goods for you.
00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:14.910
So that was a big problem over the summer.
00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:22.110
And I think it was a a probably a moment in time for lots of them.
00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:29.390
There's some that have invested in the infrastructure recently, and we won't name names, but lots of theirs weren't down.
00:23:29.630 --> 00:23:34.270
Um some the bigger chains maybe that are on the retail parks haven't.
00:23:34.430 --> 00:23:38.670
I think the thing I didn't understand is that a lot a lot of the infrastructure's on the roof.
00:23:38.750 --> 00:23:38.990
Yeah.
00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:44.750
So the fans, the venting, the compressors, um, so they just get baked.
00:23:45.070 --> 00:23:54.430
So it's not the fridge in the shop that's the problem, it's the infrastructure on the roof that's the problem that stops working, that then means the temperatures can't be sustained, that then means they need to take the food out.
00:23:54.590 --> 00:23:57.550
If the food's below temperature, it has to get thrown away and written off.
00:23:57.630 --> 00:23:58.270
There's a cost.
00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:03.470
You've still got stock coming in that you've ordered that you then can't put out, so that probably gets thrown away, that's a cost.
00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:10.670
And then you've got all the upward supply chain that's ordered weeks in advance that's piling in that nobody's selling, plus you're losing sales.
00:24:10.830 --> 00:24:29.390
So it's again a real dichotomy of if you're on a board with one of these companies now, are you thinking, you know, they'll all be talking about AI, cyber, should how we keep prevent our stores or keep our stores operating in high temperatures be on the agenda.
00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:37.550
There'll be a big cost to do that to stand still, but it's gonna come if the temperatures carry on and we maintain anywhere near what we've had.
00:24:37.790 --> 00:24:44.509
Um not sexy, not gonna make you any money, it's more about preventing lost sales, preventing waste.
00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:50.830
Um, and again, if you don't do it now, you'll probably end up doing it two, three, four, five years anyway, and it'll probably cost you more.
00:24:50.990 --> 00:25:03.950
So I get it, um from a productivity point of view, awful because you've ordered the stock, you've paid for the stock, you've put the stock out, you've then taken the stock off, you've then spent the time to write it off, you've then thrown it in the bin.
00:25:04.030 --> 00:25:09.630
So a complete waste of of making an end-to-end process from a customer experience point of view.
00:25:10.030 --> 00:25:20.830
How many people went to the supermarket this summer thinking, oh, we'll get some ice cream for the kids, um, we'll get a couple, we'll put them in the fridge because it's hot, we'll get um, I don't know, something from the chiller, and and you couldn't.
00:25:20.990 --> 00:25:21.310
Yeah.
00:25:21.550 --> 00:25:25.950
So do you just then I think a couple of times we went and we just didn't bother buying anything in the end.
00:25:26.030 --> 00:25:29.550
It was like, actually, we'll come back tomorrow or we'll go somewhere else.
00:25:29.710 --> 00:25:36.190
So there's a cost to it, a high cost, but as ever with these things, there's a big infrastructure investment to do it.
00:25:36.350 --> 00:25:46.110
Yeah, but you've wind that forward, and why wouldn't you have solar panels on the roof to make you more eco-friendly and to drive more energy efficiency if energy's going up?
00:25:46.270 --> 00:25:54.270
So yeah, it it unravels quickly, but at a significant cost when you've got a scale of large shops across the UK.
00:25:54.670 --> 00:26:00.670
So it's easier for new builds and stores of the future, much harder to match with and there's loads in store of the future.
00:26:00.830 --> 00:26:03.870
I've been around the Green King pub of the future, which is really good.
00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:08.990
Um, I'm gonna go see the BM one, which is which is good, uh, which will be good.
00:26:09.150 --> 00:26:12.910
Morrisons are doing some cool stuff with automated trolleys, but all this is about tech.
00:26:13.310 --> 00:26:17.230
It's not this is the most sustainable store we've ever built.
00:26:17.550 --> 00:26:21.070
Because typically it's just we've taken a store and took some stuff out and put some stuff in.
00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:22.830
It's not, it's got solar panels.
00:26:22.990 --> 00:26:28.030
I don't know, we're we're saving all the water for the sprinkler systems, we've got heat pumps, so we generate our own.
00:26:28.110 --> 00:26:32.990
You know, this store is carbon neutral and can operate in extreme hot and extreme cold.
00:26:33.070 --> 00:26:37.390
That's probably not part of the thinking because it's not as tangible.
00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:45.070
But the lost sales missed opportunities on the week on the week those happen, and everybody's kind of thinking, oh, maybe we should have invested in that.
00:26:45.390 --> 00:27:02.509
Well, that's I mean, it's not something that we look forward to necessarily, but but you know, of those future summers, then it is probably a permanent challenge now that does need to be addressed, it does need to be taken seriously, and um, we have to move beyond the fact that it was a one-off.
00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:05.230
Yeah, well, next year was gonna tell us, isn't it?
00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:07.630
It is, and then all of a sudden it's a trend.
00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:10.110
Yes, love a trend.
00:27:10.350 --> 00:27:23.710
So the third and final piece for us to talk about is um homogenous experiences, so it's the risk of everything broadly becoming the same, and uh takes us back to where we began when we're talking about AI.
00:27:24.430 --> 00:27:31.230
The everything risks moving towards the average, towards the mean, towards the most successful strategies.
00:27:31.310 --> 00:27:43.310
If we're all attempting to do the same things and we're all using the same emerging rule book, then there is now there will be some businesses who do this better, and we'll talk a little bit about football and sport here as we go through.
00:27:43.470 --> 00:27:48.750
Yeah, you know, your Brightons and your Brentfords clearly do something better than your Manchester United.
00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:53.390
So some people will do it better than than others.
00:27:53.870 --> 00:28:10.910
But given that environment where Heshware are becoming more and more likely due to the algorithm to be operating in in the same way, there is the sort of broader context to be thinking about, and I'm going to come to an article, and I don't know if you can post links on on the podcast.
00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:11.870
Excellent.
00:28:12.110 --> 00:28:28.590
So there's someone called um who writes in Substack called Adam Mastriani, and I first read his his first article um on this topic was the the decline of deviance in 2025, and he's come back this year and and done the second one.
00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:32.990
But the broad, and it's it's it's a gr they're both great articles.
00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:36.190
I love the fact there's data and there's stories, and it's quite funny.
00:28:36.350 --> 00:28:43.230
But a general summary of it would be that people are just generally less weird than we used to be.
00:28:43.310 --> 00:28:44.670
We are much more conventional.
00:28:44.830 --> 00:28:51.390
So he talks about things such as um, you know, we are less likely to smoke, yeah, we're less likely to drink.
00:28:51.550 --> 00:28:52.590
Yeah, we see that.
00:28:52.910 --> 00:29:00.750
We are, and I'm not encouraging this, we're less likely to be using heroin, we are less likely to suffer from serial killers.
00:29:00.830 --> 00:29:05.390
So we're generally the weirdos on the outskirts of society, we are seeing less of that.
00:29:05.550 --> 00:29:09.230
And then we're seeing the fact that people are less likely to leave home, etc.
00:29:09.390 --> 00:29:09.630
etc.
00:29:09.790 --> 00:29:21.310
Our lives are generally more conventional, but it's some of that driven by information, because if you think smoking's a classic one and drinking, it's much harder to drink underage now.
00:29:21.790 --> 00:29:24.110
It is so there's that's one thing.
00:29:24.270 --> 00:29:30.750
Um there's much more around the consequence of drinking a lot, and the cost of drinking is much more.
00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:33.550
So there's kind of some and and then you get to smoking.
00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:38.670
So in my day, your day slightly as well, probably.
00:29:38.830 --> 00:29:42.030
It was for this, isn't the sexist comment.
00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:47.790
I think there was lots of girls at school that smoked that thought it was cool, yeah, probably more so than boys.
00:29:48.110 --> 00:29:49.630
Now they're locked up.
00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:54.350
I've no idea how much a packet of cigarettes is 18, 20 quid is probably my guess.
00:29:54.750 --> 00:30:00.190
Um and when you do see them, they've got horrific pictures of lung disease on the front.
00:30:00.270 --> 00:30:00.509
Yeah.
00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:04.830
So there's a whole bunch of reasons, there's three for each of why it's probably not cool anymore.
00:30:04.990 --> 00:30:10.030
Well, they're interesting enough, like images of smoking have actually increased.
00:30:10.110 --> 00:30:10.270
Okay.
00:30:10.509 --> 00:30:18.270
So we are not smoking as much, but actually, there's a sort of move back to Instagram type images of movie stars smoking.
00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:26.910
But are you also touching on a topic which is important is that we also feel much more um under surveillance.
00:30:27.070 --> 00:30:28.509
So anybody can take a photo.
00:30:28.670 --> 00:30:44.030
Imagine young Simon, age 16, so apparently kids are not dancing anymore because the risk of dancing and that going viral and you're making a fool of yourself approaching that girl who's gonna say no, Simon.
00:30:44.190 --> 00:30:46.270
Um, you know, these things the wrong time.
00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:48.509
I'm talking to myself.
00:30:49.630 --> 00:30:59.470
So we in general, his his sort of moral is that we've lost something along the way because everything has become more standardized, more safe.
00:30:59.550 --> 00:31:08.030
And you can see this in some Airbnbs or the colours of cars, or or or maybe even the design and structure of coffee shops.
00:31:08.350 --> 00:31:23.070
And we'll we'll get without getting too deep, but is that because of the fear of, like you said, somebody something going viral on social that you become you know, those people on that Kiss Cam at Coldplay never gonna live that down, are they?
00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:31.470
They can probably make a lot of money off the back of it, but it the consequence of that going viral has you know killed their relationships and and a whole bunch of other stuff.
00:31:31.710 --> 00:31:40.509
Yes, no, the the consequences of of being caught doing the wrong thing, but that's also being felt in business as well.
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:50.990
So again, as costs rise, the risks become greater, and yes, the world increasingly feels, looks, and sounds the same.
00:31:51.150 --> 00:32:08.430
So we see this in music, we see this in in stores, for example, and in some ways that's really good because what you don't want to do is for both your employees or your customers to provide something that they just don't recognise, they don't know how it functions, they can't get it to work.
00:32:08.509 --> 00:32:16.670
You you wouldn't get Pablo Picasso in to retrofit your store, for example, because everybody would go mad.
00:32:16.830 --> 00:32:23.550
So there is a lot of sense in that, but this sort of risk around saying this so has been around for a little while.
00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:35.550
So in 2007, there was uh an internal Starbucks memoirs that went viral, that got leaked, which was called the Commoditisation of the Starbucks experience.
00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:46.110
So, in that memo, he was telling to his employees about the fact that automation streamlining had risked and had made Starbucks forgettable.
00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:49.310
The Starbucks experience had generally been watered down.
00:32:49.630 --> 00:32:53.470
Now, back into sport, that's a topic we both like talking about.
00:32:53.550 --> 00:32:56.030
I don't think there is a podcast in it, but we'll see.
00:32:56.270 --> 00:33:09.390
Um, you know, we are seeing that there is data proving that if you were to go back 10-15 years ago, where people took a chance at a shot to score a hope in in basketball, people have stopped doing that now.
00:33:09.550 --> 00:33:11.790
Everybody is going to exactly the same place.
00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:17.790
I think last season in the Premier League was the season with the fewest long-range goals.
00:33:18.110 --> 00:33:26.509
But that's all based on this um XG and your probability of yeah, Pep Guardiola passes to death because he wants to get the ball in the box.
00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:27.550
So you look at Jack Greelish.
00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:28.670
He knows that's going to be successful.
00:33:28.910 --> 00:33:34.430
He doesn't want Jack Grealish running up the wing and tearing it apart because he knows that he'll nine out of ten times lose the ball.
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:37.230
He wants him to go stop, move back, keep possession.
00:33:37.550 --> 00:33:38.270
Safety first.
00:33:38.350 --> 00:33:50.110
Yeah, safety, possession, control, dangerous possession in the box because you're more likely to get a mistake, get a deflection, than you hit it from 30 yards and one in a hundred screams in the top corner.
00:33:50.270 --> 00:33:55.390
Yeah, and I'm not saying football is less interesting, but there are fewer characters.
00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:58.509
There are probably fewer, I don't know, drop your sandwich moments.
00:33:58.750 --> 00:34:01.070
There's fewer clever, there's fewer memorable games.
00:34:01.310 --> 00:34:01.870
Exactly.
00:34:02.030 --> 00:34:05.230
It's exciting, but there's there's probably the same model.
00:34:05.390 --> 00:34:17.309
I mean, look at last season where suddenly throw-ins, someone disrupted the algorithm, they had suddenly had to cope with something that they hadn't coped with, and so something will come to disrupt, but then that's been solved for now.
00:34:17.389 --> 00:34:18.589
Yeah, everybody can solve it.
00:34:18.750 --> 00:34:20.589
And it depends on the update, doesn't it?
00:34:20.909 --> 00:34:24.190
Is that seen as a good thing or it's anti-football?
00:34:24.349 --> 00:34:47.150
Yeah, the teams that will will stick on football slightly, but there's teams that will all of a sudden go with two strikers and play long ball and it'll be anti-football, but it'll disrupt because defenders aren't used to to marking two centre fours, they're not used to somebody flicking it onto the guy who puts it in the you know, and it all becomes cyclical because then everybody starts to do it, and then somebody will then move back to passing it around the back again.
00:34:47.389 --> 00:34:49.150
It's um it's trends, isn't it?
00:34:49.309 --> 00:34:53.150
It is trend, but operating in the same way until someone disrupts.
00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:59.389
So, and there's it's also successful football, so there's little incentive to change, everybody's making quite a bit of money.
00:34:59.549 --> 00:35:07.469
So there's also the fact that we can often see that if something is recycled or repeated, the less culturally relevant it becomes.
00:35:07.549 --> 00:35:11.869
And there's a great article by Stephanie Winkler about the run club effect.
00:35:12.190 --> 00:35:23.629
So, first of all, some brands decided to offer a run club associated or sponsoring a run club, and then everybody started doing something about run clubs, and then it just became boring.
00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:25.150
And there's always a risk with that.
00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:28.269
Mark Ritson talks about the same thing for films.
00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:37.469
So we've had all these franchises, we've had these sequels, because that is where the big film uh players, you know, that's where they're going to put their best bets.
00:35:37.629 --> 00:35:48.909
So, yes, you'll get a Spider-Man over the summer, um, but you'll also get an Odyssey, and you'll also, even more interestingly, get an obsession or a backrooms.
00:35:48.989 --> 00:35:53.469
Although I was a bit iffy about backrooms, I have to say, this is not a Digger's the one they're all talking about now.
00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:54.509
It's the biggest failure.
00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:57.629
It's had a one-star and a five-star in the same week.
00:35:57.869 --> 00:35:58.509
Oh, right, okay.
00:35:58.750 --> 00:35:59.789
So I'd you could work that out.
00:36:00.190 --> 00:36:02.429
Maybe some people will like it, I'm not sure.
00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:06.829
Ritson also talks about the fact that we're looking for something different, so something on the edges.
00:36:07.069 --> 00:36:20.029
He talks about soft drinks, which is where we began that yes, Coke and Pepsi are super successful, but Gen Z are moving towards brands that perhaps their parents' generation didn't use.
00:36:20.109 --> 00:36:26.750
I was talking to a gaming company recently, and there's the risk with them that it is something that their parents did.
00:36:26.829 --> 00:36:29.150
It's like Facebook, it's not for them.
00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:33.150
So, again, thinking of the new angle and keeping things fresh.
00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:40.429
So, as everything becomes kind of the same, so what can businesses or brands do?
00:36:40.670 --> 00:36:42.989
Maybe Swap Brothers is a really good example of this.
00:36:43.069 --> 00:36:52.829
So, so what keeps you distinct, and often it is the brand itself, it's the principles, it's the values, it's the identity of the brands.
00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:57.389
So that becomes more and more important in this sort of homogeneous experience world.
00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:03.469
Part of that is how do you show that you care for your customers, but also your employees.
00:37:03.549 --> 00:37:04.750
So, how do you speak to them?
00:37:04.829 --> 00:37:08.429
How do you speak to them about their lives for your customers?
00:37:08.670 --> 00:37:14.429
Do you represent who your customers want themselves to be, let alone what they want you to be?
00:37:15.549 --> 00:37:20.429
It's tricky, it's tricky because if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it, wouldn't they?
00:37:20.589 --> 00:37:39.309
And I I back to the kind of social thing about smoking, and there's that whole Instagram of perception is reality, so it could could be great, but isn't perceived to be great, or it might not be that great, but it is perceived to be so you can't please all the people all the time, can you?
00:37:39.389 --> 00:37:40.829
That that's the challenge.
00:37:41.150 --> 00:37:48.670
But a couple of bad reviews has a significant impact if it goes viral, a couple of good reviews has a significant impact if it goes viral.
00:37:48.909 --> 00:37:53.230
Um I think the big problem is hey, you keep that relevancy going forward.
00:37:54.269 --> 00:38:02.750
So if you do something slightly different and it works, it's really tricky to find the next thing to do slightly different because everyone starts copying and cloning it.
00:38:03.230 --> 00:38:05.150
Al Dee and Little are great examples, aren't they?
00:38:05.309 --> 00:38:14.509
How many of their brands are really close in terms of the they really step on the edges of probably copyright infringement for the way things look, what they're called?
00:38:14.589 --> 00:38:17.230
They do a beer that's very, very similar to a brew dog one.
00:38:17.309 --> 00:38:37.389
There's lots of packaging that would be very similar to they do th they do packaging of sausages that are very similar to premium brands of sausages, so they're just following that trend and are very good at doing it very quickly and just enough different to it to be not end up in court all the time.
00:38:37.629 --> 00:38:47.469
But there's also with Aldi, it's an interesting case study, the the whole magic aisle piece is something which is different for them, and no one's really attempted to adopt that, but they haven't stood still on it.
00:38:47.549 --> 00:38:53.710
I don't know if you saw in the summer that they've launched these sort of mystery boxes and bags.
00:38:53.949 --> 00:38:58.750
So you buy this thing and you don't know what's inside of it, okay, which is quite cool.
00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:15.230
So again, I think that they're early adopters in thinking, well, people like the mystery of what the hell is gonna be then, you know, scuba diving equipment and chainsaw, and then they're gonna put it in a bag, and the customer doesn't know what is in there, it could be you know the own brand um baked beans.
00:39:15.389 --> 00:39:18.909
So I think with all of these, I'm gonna wrap up.
00:39:18.989 --> 00:39:27.629
Yeah, um, of all of these, the obviously my my world is is research and surveys, and I'm not here to say that's a bad thing.
00:39:27.789 --> 00:39:34.989
Research and surveys is really important, but we've kind of lost the ability to think about how something feels.
00:39:35.389 --> 00:39:42.509
Yeah, everything is boiled down to being a metric that we can track, and it is probably the wrong way around.
00:39:42.589 --> 00:39:59.949
If I was talking to any business, I'd be thinking about talking to them about the fact that it's the actions and behaviors of the employees and the customers that's really important, it's not the EX score or or the MPS of customers, and it's the resulting economic outcomes of those movements.
00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:09.309
And research needs to move back into the why something is happening, which is why I always talk about the fact that CX does not operate in a vacuum.
00:40:09.469 --> 00:40:18.190
Yeah, you've got to be thinking about all the external factors that are impacting, and um, it's not about scores and KPIs.
00:40:18.989 --> 00:40:19.549
Perfect.
00:40:19.629 --> 00:40:21.789
Well, that's episode one done.
00:40:22.029 --> 00:40:24.829
Um, and we'll be back in a couple of weeks with episode two.
00:40:25.069 --> 00:40:25.710
Thanks, Simon.
00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:26.589
Cheers, Simon.
