The Uber Incident Through a CISO Family's Eyes | Joe & Prathiba Sullivan

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Random
Access Memories with me,

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Jake Bernardes. This one I'm really
excited for.

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This is a conversation that I had in
London,

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think like, gosh, was it last year?

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Last year, I think, when I ended up going
to the event where Joe was speaking,

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sat next to Prathiba, and we talked a lot
about her job,

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her career, what she does now,

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and then also a bit about the kind of,

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what's it like from the other side of a
breach when you're not the person

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in the hot seat or in the dock,

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but also the person having to deal with
all that kind of stress

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and behind the scenes. So I wanted to try
and have this conversation when

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we authentically asked.

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What's it like in a family setting and not
what's it like in a workplace setting?

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So thank you Joe and Prathiba for joining
me.

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I really appreciate it. If you want to
start by just introducing yourselves,

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I always ask the same three questions.

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Who are you and what do you do?

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That kind of thing. And then what's your
hobby?

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And then who is your hero, your idol,

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your inspiration? Whoever wants to go
first,

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I don't care. Let's go ladies first.

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Okay. ~ hi everyone. My name is Prathiba.

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I'm Joe's wife. ~ my hobby I'd say is
cooking and mostly fusion cooking.

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and my hero ~ has always been my
grandmother.

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~ she was a homemaker but she helped her
community around her and

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When she passed away, there was a whole
group of people outside thanking

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her for all the different things that
she's done for their lives.

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So she's always been my hero. That's
awesome.

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That's cool.

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I can validate that one. I've I've heard
Prathiba talk about

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her grandmother a million times,

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and I wish I could have met her.

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so my name's Joe Sullivan and I'm
Prathiba's husband.

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And I ~

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Haha.

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~ my favorite hobby is skiing.

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And in fact, so much so that ~ when we
met,

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Prathiba didn't know how to ski.

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And she is now a double black diamond
skier since I've dragged across many a
slope.

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and now she loves it too, thankfully.

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I do. well now looking down

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Who's your hero?

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on us is a poster of Abraham Lincoln that
I got when I was

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Hmm.

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my first year out of I my first job right
out of school,

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I went to Washington, DC for training and
I went to the Lincoln Memorial and

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I got a two-dollar poster and I've had it
by my desk ever since for

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the last ~ more than thirty years.

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And it was because you know, I went to law
school and the reason I went

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to law school is because I'd read all
these books about Abraham Lincoln when

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I was growing up.

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And I didn't actually know any lawyers.

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I I don't think I'd ever met a practicing
lawyer before I went to law school,

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but it was just like what what Abraham
Lincoln stood for and the

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way he had practiced law was what I had
read about.

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And so that was ~ he was definitely an
inspirational driver for my

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That's interesting.

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I read two books in COVID that define my
two heroes.

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One of them is Lincoln and the second is
Alexander Hamilton,

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both from books and then mainstream media,

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one that had a movie about him and one
that had obviously a musical about them.

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But it's interesting. Yeah, I found two in
American Founding Fathers,

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I suppose to be. How did you two meet?

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You talked about how you became skiers,

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but how did you meet?

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We met professionally. ~ we ~ it was
funny,

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I was ~ working as the CSO at Cloudflare.

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I joined in twenty eighteen and when ~ at
that time Cloudflare

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was a small private company and it w but
it was growing fast and

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I think had aspirations. And so I joined
in twenty eighteen reporting to the CEO,

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Matthew Prince. And

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He had given me the mandate to come in and
build

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a world-class security organization.

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And that's something that I had done twice
before at Facebook and Uber.

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And so I came in in 2018 and I got a
subscription to LinkedIn Recruiter

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and was working really hard to try and
build the best possible security

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organization. And ~ I think it was in

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~ summer of 2019 that I messaged Prathiba
in LinkedIn and said.

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I see that you work in cybersecurity.

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Would you consider s leaving your company
and coming to my company?

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And she said, ~ actually,

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I I decided to stop ~ my job and I'm going
to Stanford Business School.

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And it was really strange because at that
time I was ~ halfway done with preparing

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a talk on how security leaders don't
really understand business.

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And I would like to introduce some
business concepts.

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Because I had come to the conclusion that
I'd effectively,

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after 25 years in cybersecurity,

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developed a an MBA through osmosis of you
know reporting to business executives

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and being in the in the exec room.

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And so long story short,

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we ended up meeting and creating a program
where we did training

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for cybersecurity executives on ~
understanding business.

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And and we took a cohort.

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of up and coming CISOs here in the San
Francisco Bay Area.

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And we would meet with them once a month
and and spend some time going through

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business concepts with them and talking
through things from different angles.

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So we were doing that ~ professionally
until COVID

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hit and then then we left off.

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We were not in touch anymore and then we
got back

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in touch when I was finally moving to Palo
Alto,

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the neighborhood that he lives in.

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~ I wanted to meet him to ask about
schools and things like that.

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And then ~ yeah, and then the rest is
history.

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It became a date. It was funny
because ~ we didn't know ~ much like

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I you know when you work with people
professionally you don't always ask

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a lot of personal questions. And

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When she ~ reached out about talking about
schools in Palo Alto in her email,

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she said, My ex-husband and I are moving
to Palo Alto.

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And I like, Did you say ex? I was I was also
going through

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a divorce at that point. I'd already ~
separated and was ~ in

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the process of finalizing a divorce.

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And so ~ we met for coffee to talk about
schools and

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Yeah. So we are we always say when people
ask in one sentence,

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and the rest is true.

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we met on the famous dating app,

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LinkedIn.

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You'd

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be surprised how many people meet on
LinkedIn and end up getting married,

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I think.

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Yeah. Lots of people tell me you should
never tell that story because

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it sounds like you're trying to find a
wife on LinkedIn.

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And I was like, no. I always have to tell
the long version.

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to get around

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the problem. But Prathiba, talk to me from
your side.

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Like, Joe's obviously a known individual.

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So when you took that job, like,

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I'm assuming you did some Googling.

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Like, how did that work in your head?

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tell me about that kind of thought process
from your side.

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Yeah. I I don't know, I just looked at him
as a person and he and when we

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met and we talked about things we would
talk for the whole hour about

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just different things and he was just so
easy to talk to.

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And I don't think he was the person that
say it he was portrayed in

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the press or anything. There was a whole
different angle about him that

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I saw ~ during our our meetings.

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And I think everybody sees the same thing
when you meet Joe in person.

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He's just a different person from whoever
~ whatever they portray of him.

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So

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It was a you know, we would just spend the
whole forty-five minutes,

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it would go by so quickly and I'd look
forward to our next conversation

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and ~ that's how it was. And then ~ as
much as he,

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you know, he's in the cybersecurity field,

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I'm probably very not risk averse.

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So I didn't care about all the things on
on press.

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So talk to me about that. Like you say
it's obviously very different.

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So you'd obviously formed a kind of
conceived idea from what you'd read.

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You said you'd read the press,

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he was different to the press.

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So talk to me about that. Like what did
you expect and what was different?

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It's kind of like.

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Yeah.

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~ well I d like just to be fair,

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I don't think I specifically thought much
about what was in the news

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or anything like that. Like when I met
with him,

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I saw a genuinely authentic person trying
to do the right thing.

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and you know, I always knew what was said
there was not the truth.

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~ so

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It's just it was a human to human
connection and that's all it was.

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And so yeah. I ~ I I have now come to

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the conclusion that there's a version of a
person online and there's a version

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of a person who's in reality. So yeah.

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Interesting. I guess I can turn that
question about you.

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You talk about LinkedIn dating,

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but we're not saying LinkedIn dating.

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So you've obviously, how does that feel as
a person where obviously there

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is a version of you online, but I know you
as well.

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Yeah.

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It's not a fair reflection for you all,

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right? But how do you deal with that when
you meet people,

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especially in like a romantic scene?

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There's a difference in a work one,

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but how do you deal with that from a
romantic setting when people have seen
stuff

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that you're like, well, that's not me.

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Yeah, it's a good question. I don't
think I don't think we thought of

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I don't I don't know, maybe I didn't think
about it too much.

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I mean I had been in a a long term
relationship and had a family and

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and she did too, and we were both kind of
coming out of that.

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And it was pan it was the middle of the
pandemic.

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We started dating it in the summer of
twenty twenty one.

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And ~ you know,

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we were just in this like weird world
where

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You know, everything was like a Twilight
Zone factor in pandemic era.

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And I think I think I

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got the benefit of Prathiba having not
grown up in the United States didn't maybe

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fully appreciate when I said, you know,

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I'm under indictment.

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Ha

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does that mean?

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Well, you know, it was kind of a weird
thing where I I had gotten indicted in ~

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2020 and you know this case is
pending,

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but I'm still working full time as the
chief security officer at Cloudflare.

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So it's the pandemic, but I'm I'm working
full time.

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She's working full, you know, I guess she
was working full time ~ because

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she had graduated from business school and
was is was working at at a company,

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I think. And ~ so it was like neither one
of us

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Like we look back at it actually
happily because neither one of

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us spend time in dating apps. And we have
too many friends who talk about

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the unpleasant experience of living in
dating app life.

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And so somehow we avoided that.

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Is it, Prathiba, is it difficult?

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obviously I'm assuming like you'll have
had conversations at home where Joe's

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indictments going on and you're thinking
this is all taking the piss,

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like none of this is true. Like,

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is it hard hearing the other side of the
story but not really being able

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to like do anything with it? Just being
able to like,

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because people form opinions, right?

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But you can't go and argue them in the
world.

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That's part of the legal problem here.

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Yeah, it's ~ that definitely was a pretty
difficult chapter 'cause ~

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one of the things that happens on a daily
basis is you see stuff in

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the press and then there's actually
industry gossip of people talking about

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him in a different way on LinkedIn or
whatever other social media.

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And so you're hearing all of those things
and initially it's definitely like

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a shock to the system to like,

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you know, about be at the other end of it.

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~ and that's not normal. I mean,

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even if you're an exec, you're

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facing long hours and you know your
husband's not home traveling that's

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one thing but ~ having ~ having this sort
of ~ environment where it's

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hostile outside is a different
circumstance altogether.

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And so one of the things I think we did at
home was we didn't come back

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and we and we didn't come back and just
talk about all the things that's
happening.

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We compartmentalized. So at home it was
just a home atmosphere.

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We talked about things that mattered like
what's

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on with this kid or like what's happening
at school or you know date nights

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and we kept all the traditions as well
like we kept our vacations,

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we kept birthdays, ~ we had dinners ~ with
our kids and and so

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it was a completely home atmosphere.

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It was compartmentalized and that I think
helped a lot because we're more than that

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00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:40,771
case and we have a whole life together.

232
00:12:40,771 --> 00:12:44,812
So ~ I think that was one of the ways we
coped at home.

233
00:12:44,877 --> 00:12:45,877
you

234
00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:48,919
Yeah, that's that's a good point because I
~ like I was coming

235
00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:53,363
to the relationship with three teenage
daughters and she was coming with

236
00:12:53,363 --> 00:12:56,526
a I think nine year old son. And

237
00:12:57,007 --> 00:13:02,571
so ~ when when you're coming when you're
coming to

238
00:13:02,571 --> 00:13:07,296
the world with with kids, you you're think
of obviously we

239
00:13:07,752 --> 00:13:11,614
We were we were more focused on making
sure our kids were supported

240
00:13:11,614 --> 00:13:15,555
and happy with our relationship than
thinking about a lot of other things like

241
00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:21,588
the case. and also ~ I was probably
foolishly optimistic about how

242
00:13:21,588 --> 00:13:26,030
the case was going to turn out and may not
have projected the total gravity

243
00:13:26,030 --> 00:13:30,652
of the situation. ~ even like accepting it
myself.

244
00:13:30,652 --> 00:13:34,423
Like if I go back to 2020 before
we started dating,

245
00:13:34,423 --> 00:13:35,504
like my lawyer

246
00:13:36,501 --> 00:13:40,634
When I did get indicted, I think it was my
lawyer and Matthew Prince both said

247
00:13:40,634 --> 00:13:46,739
to me, You were irrationally in denial
that this was you were gonna

248
00:13:46,739 --> 00:13:49,280
get charged because I didn't believe I was
gonna get charged because

249
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,842
I didn't think I'd done anything wrong.

250
00:13:50,842 --> 00:13:53,744
And then once I got charged, I didn't
think I was gonna lose the trial because

251
00:13:53,744 --> 00:13:56,115
I didn't think I'd gotten any I'd done
anything wrong.

252
00:13:56,115 --> 00:13:58,317
And so I just kept believing that in the
end,

253
00:13:58,317 --> 00:14:02,280
~ people are gonna figure this out and
this is all gonna go away.

254
00:14:04,269 --> 00:14:05,709
I have so many questions, I'm gonna do the
reaction.

255
00:14:05,709 --> 00:14:07,529
I'll come back to the kids, because the
kids interest me.

256
00:14:07,529 --> 00:14:10,269
Prathiba, you said you were kind of naive
to indictment and stuff,

257
00:14:10,269 --> 00:14:12,909
I'm assuming not all
of your family and friends were

258
00:14:12,909 --> 00:14:15,469
at the time when you said you were dating
a guy that they could Google

259
00:14:15,469 --> 00:14:17,289
and they said he's being indicted in
federal court.

260
00:14:17,289 --> 00:14:20,689
Did anyone tell you like, what the hell
are you doing?

261
00:14:20,689 --> 00:14:21,809
This is not a good idea.

262
00:14:22,728 --> 00:14:24,921
You know, that was the most shocking part,

263
00:14:24,921 --> 00:14:27,924
Jake. Like, I know my parents are are
from,

264
00:14:27,924 --> 00:14:33,661
you know, traditional India and I'd have
expected them to say,

265
00:14:33,661 --> 00:14:35,363
like, you know, what are you doing?

266
00:14:35,363 --> 00:14:37,936
Step back. But they were so supportive.

267
00:14:37,936 --> 00:14:40,689
My mom said every day and I'm from a Christian
family,

268
00:14:40,689 --> 00:14:43,432
my mom every day would say, I'm praying
for Joe and hope.

269
00:14:43,968 --> 00:14:48,950
~ you know everything works out for good
and all my friends were supportive

270
00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:54,693
~ as well in fact they all wrote letters
for Joe ~ as they've seen

271
00:14:54,693 --> 00:15:00,916
him at home and so I had a lot of support
from my community and I think that helped

272
00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:03,877
a lot and I probably take that for granted
a little bit.

273
00:15:03,877 --> 00:15:07,479
~ and when you ask the question it just
strikes me it could have gone the other
way.

274
00:15:07,479 --> 00:15:10,460
so that was one thing that went very well.

275
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:13,922
The other thing that went very well was
you know we're a blended family.

276
00:15:13,922 --> 00:15:20,705
~ you know and all of our kids just got
along so well ~ and that need

277
00:15:20,705 --> 00:15:24,786
not have happened either so ~ we also take
that for granted a little

278
00:15:24,786 --> 00:15:27,217
bit and the funny thing is they have so
many things in common one of

279
00:15:27,217 --> 00:15:33,150
the things was ~ all four were vegetarian
kids which ~ and and

280
00:15:30,774 --> 00:15:31,774
No.

281
00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:38,052
and we're not vegetarian which is yeah
yeah

282
00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:37,190
Oh really? That's a bit of a nightmare.

283
00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:39,049
Let's

284
00:15:39,049 --> 00:15:41,250
stay on the kids thing. Cause I've seen a
few places where you've

285
00:15:41,250 --> 00:15:44,250
put like my daughter texts me to say she
just heard you've been arrested.

286
00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:48,510
Right? how is that? Cause teenagers aren't
like little kids,

287
00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:49,930
right? They've got access to social media.

288
00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:52,090
They have friends who are probably
horrible.

289
00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:54,430
Like how was that with your children?

290
00:15:54,430 --> 00:15:57,510
Like an initial first phase when you're
talking about what's happened,

291
00:15:57,510 --> 00:15:59,230
trying to explain it, their reactions,

292
00:15:59,230 --> 00:16:02,290
what they're probably facing in school or
with their friendship groups where your

293
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:03,330
name is all over the newspapers,

294
00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:04,330
all over the press.

295
00:16:04,481 --> 00:16:06,749
How was that? Because that must be hard to
be a parent there.

296
00:16:09,022 --> 00:16:13,847
Yeah, honestly I think it's natural as a
parent to when things happen,

297
00:16:13,847 --> 00:16:17,711
you put your kids first and you've you put
you like like

298
00:16:17,711 --> 00:16:23,356
I remember like when I when

299
00:16:23,356 --> 00:16:28,452
I lost the trial ~ and the jury came back
and said guilty

300
00:16:29,496 --> 00:16:35,379
my first reaction, you know, stand sitting
standing at the ~ defense table

301
00:16:35,839 --> 00:16:39,941
was my kids in the front row and my
daughter who's away at college

302
00:16:39,941 --> 00:16:41,771
who couldn't come for the sentencing,

303
00:16:41,771 --> 00:16:46,644
~ watching on video, I think watch or
watching on audio yeah,

304
00:16:46,644 --> 00:16:53,507
watching on Zoom. ~ and and thinking like
about them more than myself.

305
00:16:53,507 --> 00:16:56,468
~ but ~

306
00:16:56,970 --> 00:17:00,613
But to flip it around, they ~ honestly
they were great.

307
00:17:00,613 --> 00:17:05,647
~ all three of the girls were in terms of
they just

308
00:17:05,647 --> 00:17:12,051
~ nothing changed. And I and I think about
it back to I I tell this story sometimes.

309
00:17:12,051 --> 00:17:18,176
Back the day that I ~ maybe in some ways I
went through probably three

310
00:17:19,757 --> 00:17:23,260
really hard days. One was the day
that I got fired from Uber in

311
00:17:23,624 --> 00:17:25,794
2017, the second was when I
got indicted,

312
00:17:25,794 --> 00:17:27,627
and the third was when I lost the trial.

313
00:17:27,627 --> 00:17:30,589
And in some ways the one that hit me the
hardest was the one

314
00:17:30,589 --> 00:17:32,710
in 2017 when I got fired from
Uber,

315
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:37,063
with because it just became so far out of
left field and surprised me.

316
00:17:37,063 --> 00:17:39,695
And I'd never been knocked down like that
in my life.

317
00:17:39,695 --> 00:17:45,839
And ~ and I didn't know how to react and I didn't feel supported

318
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,841
by a community the way I did later when
the other things happened.

319
00:17:48,841 --> 00:17:52,884
And the day that I got

320
00:17:53,305 --> 00:17:59,396
~ fired I had been been planning we were
up in in the mountains because

321
00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:03,227
it was Thanksgiving and we were on
vacation and I had told

322
00:18:03,227 --> 00:18:04,848
the girls that we were going to go for a
hike.

323
00:18:04,848 --> 00:18:10,669
And so I got fired and you know my
immediate reaction

324
00:18:11,009 --> 00:18:17,571
was I need to get a phone. I knew I need
to start figuring out how to deal with

325
00:18:17,571 --> 00:18:21,012
the situation. But instead I went hiking
with my daughters.

326
00:18:21,012 --> 00:18:22,232
And

327
00:18:24,094 --> 00:18:27,605
We were out hiking and I had a a a water
bottle that I was carrying,

328
00:18:27,605 --> 00:18:30,427
but I didn't have a pocket or a place
to put it.

329
00:18:30,427 --> 00:18:35,719
So I put it I tucked it in the back of my
collar ~ for a little bit.

330
00:18:35,719 --> 00:18:40,671
And I always remember my eldest daughter
was hiking behind me and she said,

331
00:18:40,671 --> 00:18:47,363
"Unemployed man camelback." Like I was
literally been fired

332
00:18:43,754 --> 00:18:44,754
Hahaha

333
00:18:47,363 --> 00:18:50,575
publicly on the front page of like every
newspaper of the world.

334
00:18:50,575 --> 00:18:53,296
And an hour later my daughter's making a
joke about it.

335
00:18:53,884 --> 00:18:58,445
And we could laugh. And that was
everything.

336
00:18:55,744 --> 00:18:56,744
in ages.

337
00:18:58,445 --> 00:19:02,709
You know, it's like you can shut out the
world when you have kids like that.

338
00:19:02,709 --> 00:19:06,392
And you can just ~ and and also when
they're teenagers,

339
00:19:06,392 --> 00:19:10,094
their world is also is also a very
competing priority for them.

340
00:19:10,094 --> 00:19:14,576
You know, the stress of being a teenager
in today's world with the academics,

341
00:19:14,576 --> 00:19:18,158
the social stuff, the online stuff,

342
00:19:18,158 --> 00:19:20,380
just their own lives, I I think.

343
00:19:21,273 --> 00:19:27,156
~ pulls them back into it. And so we were
able to find a balance and almost have

344
00:19:27,156 --> 00:19:28,870
a sense of normalcy most of the time.

345
00:19:29,611 --> 00:19:32,623
I think when you go about,

346
00:19:32,623 --> 00:19:34,033
people have asked the stupid question,

347
00:19:34,033 --> 00:19:35,033
if you went about with doing it different,

348
00:19:34,982 --> 00:19:36,525
I'm more interested in that one.

349
00:19:36,525 --> 00:19:39,706
What surprised you most? If you reflect on
that period,

350
00:19:39,706 --> 00:19:42,147
what surprised you most about yourself?

351
00:19:42,147 --> 00:19:44,989
Either weak or strong, like something that
you didn't expect.

352
00:19:47,741 --> 00:19:53,846
I think ~ the ability to compartmentalize
and get back onto life.

353
00:19:53,399 --> 00:19:54,399
Hmm.

354
00:19:53,846 --> 00:19:57,985
You know, I ~ I think about like after
losing you know,

355
00:19:57,985 --> 00:20:03,488
after getting fired and after losing the
trial and I went I I jokingly refer

356
00:20:03,488 --> 00:20:07,998
to those as like the two times I went into
like Grizzly Adams hibernation mode.

357
00:20:07,998 --> 00:20:09,770
You know, I ~

358
00:20:10,324 --> 00:20:11,865
Like after I got fired from Uber,

359
00:20:11,865 --> 00:20:15,587
I look at the I look at my badge photo
from when I started at Cloudflare

360
00:20:15,587 --> 00:20:18,978
in 2018 and I'm shocked that
they hired me because I had a full beard.

361
00:20:18,978 --> 00:20:23,711
It was like I it was like I wanted to like
hide and not

362
00:20:23,711 --> 00:20:29,664
be recognized and and and like project to
the world that I had like checked

363
00:20:29,664 --> 00:20:33,410
out or something. And ~ you know.

364
00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:38,740
I think before I actually started at
Cloudflare I did shave it off

365
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,922
and come back to a normal person.

366
00:20:40,922 --> 00:20:44,566
Thank goodness. Yeah. ~ Yeah,

367
00:20:41,443 --> 00:20:42,912
Come back off the mountain. Yeah.

368
00:20:44,566 --> 00:20:50,291
I think one of the things that was
surprising for me about him,

369
00:20:51,648 --> 00:20:55,330
And I think this incident kind of probably
lays it out very clearly.

370
00:20:55,330 --> 00:20:58,611
It's we lost the trial, first day,

371
00:20:58,611 --> 00:21:01,663
we were coming out, and we had two cars,

372
00:21:01,663 --> 00:21:05,775
like us in one car, and the kids had
brought the kid mobile.

373
00:21:05,775 --> 00:21:09,276
And so we were both in cars.

374
00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:13,248
We were going on the one-on-one highway
and we were like literally racing each

375
00:21:13,248 --> 00:21:15,079
other, rolling on the windows,

376
00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:16,930
looking at each other and laughing.

377
00:21:16,930 --> 00:21:20,872
And this was right after we lost the trial
and we didn't know what

378
00:21:20,872 --> 00:21:21,872
was gonna happen to

379
00:21:21,259 --> 00:21:22,259
Hmm.

380
00:21:22,162 --> 00:21:23,824
And we came back home, we cooked,

381
00:21:23,824 --> 00:21:26,526
we laughed. And that part was,

382
00:21:26,526 --> 00:21:28,907
you know, it's surprising to think.

383
00:21:28,907 --> 00:21:32,610
Like in that moment, it was it was like a
different reaction from what

384
00:21:32,610 --> 00:21:38,014
~ one would normally expect. But I think
to his point,

385
00:21:38,014 --> 00:21:40,196
it's that ability to compartmentalize,

386
00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:44,619
but also like how strong we are and
resilient we are as humans.

387
00:21:44,619 --> 00:21:50,583
And we had this belief ~ throughout that
we're gonna be just fine,

388
00:21:50,583 --> 00:21:51,583
like

389
00:21:51,826 --> 00:21:54,419
just always. That was always the
underlying thing.

390
00:21:54,419 --> 00:21:56,570
Like no matter what, we're gonna be fine.

391
00:21:56,570 --> 00:22:03,116
~ and we during the period between ~
losing and sentencing,

392
00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:06,890
we had this whole period where we had to
look at things like what jail

393
00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:10,173
he might end up in and what's gonna
happen.

394
00:22:10,173 --> 00:22:12,865
'Cause we both didn't couldn't really
think of a career.

395
00:22:12,973 --> 00:22:16,992
So this is my next question. So I think
like most of us in the industry think that

396
00:22:16,992 --> 00:22:18,953
the eventual sentencing is still crazy.

397
00:22:18,953 --> 00:22:20,113
And I could say that as someone not American,

398
00:22:20,113 --> 00:22:21,173
they can't do anything to me, right?

399
00:22:21,173 --> 00:22:23,653
But I think Joe says, honestly,

400
00:22:23,653 --> 00:22:24,713
that he went in quite naively,

401
00:22:24,713 --> 00:22:26,893
but you probably didn't right.

402
00:22:26,893 --> 00:22:28,433
So at some point, it must have crossed
your mind.

403
00:22:28,433 --> 00:22:32,413
He might go to prison. Like processing
that,

404
00:22:30,143 --> 00:22:33,042
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

405
00:22:32,413 --> 00:22:35,113
I'd be told to be that big. That has got
to be horrendous if you're thinking your

406
00:22:35,113 --> 00:22:36,113
spouse might go to prison.

407
00:22:36,573 --> 00:22:41,436
Yeah. ~ it was after after losing the
trial.

408
00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:46,550
We had it was a we lost the trial and like
the verdict was in May 4th

409
00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:49,682
so the verdict was at the
beginning of October and

410
00:22:49,682 --> 00:22:52,404
the sentencing wasn't until the beginning
of May.

411
00:22:52,404 --> 00:22:58,638
So we had a long period of time where we
were in this like ~ limbo

412
00:22:53,121 --> 00:22:54,121
long time.

413
00:22:58,638 --> 00:22:59,869
of not knowing what's next.

414
00:23:00,545 --> 00:23:04,038
I ~ had to leave Cloudflare after losing
the trial.

415
00:23:04,038 --> 00:23:07,992
That was something we'd agreed well before
that if I did because

416
00:23:07,992 --> 00:23:14,318
it would. Some customers
dropped Cloudflare because Cloudflare kept

417
00:23:14,318 --> 00:23:18,582
me ~ pending the trial. ~ and I didn't
want that,

418
00:23:18,582 --> 00:23:21,385
and the company didn't want to have to
deal with the attention of

419
00:23:21,405 --> 00:23:23,027
of me going through a sentencing.

420
00:23:23,027 --> 00:23:24,748
But so after

421
00:23:25,787 --> 00:23:30,911
after the losing the trial, we we had this
extended period of time where

422
00:23:30,911 --> 00:23:34,113
I wasn't I wasn't able to work at the
company.

423
00:23:34,113 --> 00:23:36,184
So I had to actually face it much more.

424
00:23:36,184 --> 00:23:40,848
We were very frustrated with the
legal team that we had after

425
00:23:40,848 --> 00:23:42,129
we lost the trial because they had,

426
00:23:42,129 --> 00:23:44,771
I mean literally to the time of the
verdict,

427
00:23:44,771 --> 00:23:46,712
they were saying that we were gonna win.

428
00:23:46,712 --> 00:23:47,712
~

429
00:23:49,214 --> 00:23:53,267
And and we and we really limited the
defense we put on because their view

430
00:23:53,267 --> 00:23:55,018
was we don't even need to put on a
defense,

431
00:23:55,018 --> 00:23:58,640
you know. and so we had a lot of
frustration.

432
00:23:55,437 --> 00:23:56,437
Yeah.

433
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,472
~ but they then, you know, asked after we
came out of the trial and they

434
00:24:02,472 --> 00:24:04,233
said you know, we started talking to the
government like,

435
00:24:04,233 --> 00:24:07,956
can we reach an agreed sentencing position
between the two sides?

436
00:24:07,956 --> 00:24:12,268
'Cause there's always negotiations in
these in in cases like this.

437
00:24:12,268 --> 00:24:13,268
And

438
00:24:13,727 --> 00:24:16,280
We couldn't because the government said
they were gonna come in and argue

439
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,011
for I think 23 of prison.

440
00:24:18,011 --> 00:24:22,105
And so we that's what we had in
the back of our head

441
00:24:22,105 --> 00:24:23,367
to get back to your question,

442
00:24:23,367 --> 00:24:26,109
we were thinking about like the
government's gonna go and argue that

443
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,411
I should get 23 years in prison.

444
00:24:27,411 --> 00:24:31,885
And so that's when we started talking to
like we found people who'd been through

445
00:24:31,885 --> 00:24:34,668
these processes, people who'd been to
prison.

446
00:24:34,668 --> 00:24:37,481
We were talking to lots of people trying
to figure out like

447
00:24:38,047 --> 00:24:41,380
What's the difference between the federal
prisons in California versus

448
00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:43,603
the federal prison in Oregon versus the
one in,

449
00:24:43,603 --> 00:24:45,671
you know, Florida? And why would you,

450
00:24:45,671 --> 00:24:48,928
you know, why do why do we see some people
choosing to go to prisons

451
00:24:48,928 --> 00:24:51,083
in Oklahoma and other you know,

452
00:24:51,083 --> 00:24:54,474
we we just had to go deep into all these
things and figure out like it's Yeah.

453
00:24:54,474 --> 00:24:56,936
Yeah. We just turned into action mode.

454
00:24:56,936 --> 00:25:00,560
It was it was two things. It was okay,

455
00:24:57,495 --> 00:24:58,495
Yeah.

456
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:01,560
~

457
00:25:01,535 --> 00:25:05,327
What what are the chances that we can
minimize this whole situation?

458
00:25:05,327 --> 00:25:08,688
Like, what are the best options and
outcomes for us?

459
00:25:08,688 --> 00:25:10,829
That's one. And then if the worst does
happen,

460
00:25:10,829 --> 00:25:14,471
~ how do you how do we cope with it and
what do we do?

461
00:25:14,471 --> 00:25:16,152
So those were the two things we were
working on.

462
00:25:16,152 --> 00:25:21,674
So on the sentencing front, we found so we
were ~ we had

463
00:25:21,674 --> 00:25:26,237
the ability to provide one last argument
to the judge on why it should

464
00:25:26,237 --> 00:25:29,318
not be prison. And so we worked on that a
whole lot.

465
00:25:29,318 --> 00:25:31,449
Like ~ we got so much data.

466
00:25:32,019 --> 00:25:34,711
On you know the judges' verdicts in the
past.

467
00:25:34,711 --> 00:25:37,532
So I I was I jumped in, I'm a data person,

468
00:25:37,532 --> 00:25:41,314
so I jumped in on all the analysis and
like what is the right argument

469
00:25:41,314 --> 00:25:45,347
and position to have, and we started
directing the lawyers on what they should
say.

470
00:25:45,347 --> 00:25:47,687
~ it the thing flipped around,

471
00:25:47,687 --> 00:25:53,411
and you know, we started taking control
over the whole legal argument and so on.

472
00:25:53,411 --> 00:25:55,832
So that was our action mode, and then

473
00:25:55,638 --> 00:25:56,638
That's,

474
00:25:56,078 --> 00:25:59,180
action mode is great, I guess the question
for you is,

475
00:25:59,180 --> 00:26:02,673
were you confident? Because you're there
sitting otherwise thinking,

476
00:26:02,673 --> 00:26:06,426
I've now got three teenage daughters that
I'm going to have and my son,

477
00:26:06,426 --> 00:26:08,918
a blended family, and I'm going to
effectively become a single parent

478
00:26:08,918 --> 00:26:11,539
for some period of time, which is at this
point unforeseen because

479
00:26:11,539 --> 00:26:13,294
the government's just saying, we're going
to go for prison.

480
00:26:13,294 --> 00:26:15,432
We're not going to say, what's that
outcomes going to be like?

481
00:26:15,432 --> 00:26:18,895
I get the action. I get that kind of takes
your mind off things,

482
00:26:18,895 --> 00:26:21,937
but I can't believe that there isn't you
going to bed at night thinking about this.

483
00:26:22,601 --> 00:26:27,053
Yeah. I mean, I was beginning to think
about how do I get to prison?

484
00:26:27,053 --> 00:26:29,684
How do I get to see him? Should I become a
paralegal?

485
00:26:28,662 --> 00:26:29,662
Gosh.

486
00:26:29,684 --> 00:26:32,886
~ so I get to see him more often.

487
00:26:32,886 --> 00:26:36,148
And how do I balance the time between
being at home with the kids

488
00:26:36,148 --> 00:26:38,339
and going and seeing him in prison.

489
00:26:38,068 --> 00:26:39,068
Mah-

490
00:26:38,339 --> 00:26:42,451
So I started having a whole plan for
that.

491
00:26:42,451 --> 00:26:46,213
She actually ~

492
00:26:47,189 --> 00:26:51,509
someone that we are friends with had gone
through ~

493
00:26:51,891 --> 00:26:58,183
a process ~ strangely similar where he ~
started dating someone right before they

494
00:26:58,183 --> 00:27:01,084
went to prison and he's an attorney and he
said,

495
00:27:01,084 --> 00:27:03,835
Well, I was able to go visit every day
because I'm an attorney.

496
00:27:03,835 --> 00:27:05,956
And she and so she said to him,

497
00:27:05,956 --> 00:27:07,536
Wait, so if I was a paralegal,

498
00:27:07,536 --> 00:27:09,509
would I be able to go visit whenever I
want?

499
00:27:08,523 --> 00:27:09,546
You were literally planning

500
00:27:09,546 --> 00:27:12,325
for this in terms of like changing your
career to make sure you had the access.

501
00:27:12,325 --> 00:27:13,569
Gosh, that's insane.

502
00:27:12,853 --> 00:27:13,853
Yes. Yes.

503
00:27:13,613 --> 00:27:15,134
Yes. She was like she was like,

504
00:27:15,134 --> 00:27:16,685
would you hire me as a paralegal?

505
00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:19,316
I'll gladly switch me a paralegal if I
could 'cause you know,

506
00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:23,557
like if when you research and you realize
like standard visitation is like once

507
00:27:23,557 --> 00:27:25,748
a week and on this narrow scope.

508
00:27:24,557 --> 00:27:25,557
Yeah.

509
00:27:25,748 --> 00:27:27,779
But if you're a part of the person's legal
team,

510
00:27:27,779 --> 00:27:29,000
you can go see them every day.

511
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,972
Yeah. And which is what our friend had
done ~ with his now wife.

512
00:27:33,972 --> 00:27:39,684
~ and so ~ she was literally like in she
was in full action mode,

513
00:27:39,684 --> 00:27:41,645
I'll say that. We both were.

514
00:27:42,794 --> 00:27:47,888
Yeah. We're not ~ we're not people who
like sit around and say,

515
00:27:47,888 --> 00:27:50,300
Woe is me. We're people who think like,

516
00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:53,913
okay, what can I do to control or change
my situation?

517
00:27:53,913 --> 00:27:55,705
We don't like the world dictating to us.

518
00:27:55,705 --> 00:28:00,379
I think that time was the scariest
time of my life because it was

519
00:28:00,379 --> 00:28:04,512
the time I most felt like someone else has
control of my life.

520
00:28:05,759 --> 00:28:09,992
The judge. You know, he the judge could
make a decision that could fundamentally

521
00:28:09,992 --> 00:28:13,174
change my life. And that's a really scary
thing and something that I

522
00:28:13,174 --> 00:28:18,118
I'm used to being a person who feels
comfortable like taking risks you know,

523
00:28:18,118 --> 00:28:22,221
I started working when I was 10 and was
had two jobs in college

524
00:28:22,221 --> 00:28:27,625
and and sometimes three, and believed that
like I could take care of myself.

525
00:28:27,625 --> 00:28:33,089
And and to be in a situation where the
banks are shutting down my accounts.

526
00:28:33,977 --> 00:28:39,472
And homeowners insurance is canceling and
car insurance is canceling and

527
00:28:34,477 --> 00:28:35,477
Yeah, I forgot about that bit.

528
00:28:39,472 --> 00:28:41,694
my 401K is sending me a check and
saying,

529
00:28:41,694 --> 00:28:44,657
You you know, if you don't deposit it in a
different 401K,

530
00:28:44,657 --> 00:28:47,710
the government's gonna fine you for take
withdrawing your money early.

531
00:28:47,710 --> 00:28:51,873
You know, I was dealing with all these
things and it was just like it felt like

532
00:28:51,873 --> 00:28:54,696
so much less in control of my life than
I'd ever felt before.

533
00:28:54,696 --> 00:28:55,696
Yeah.

534
00:28:56,231 --> 00:29:00,823
And ~ yeah, the other thing that was also
going on through our heads is like,

535
00:29:00,823 --> 00:29:03,905
what are our children seeing?

536
00:29:03,905 --> 00:29:10,107
Like what are we doing as role models for
them in a situation where it's a tough time?

537
00:29:10,107 --> 00:29:12,378
They're looking at how we're handling
crisis,

538
00:29:12,378 --> 00:29:16,651
they're looking at how we're reacting to
the world when people say

539
00:29:16,651 --> 00:29:19,342
bad things about us and about him,

540
00:29:19,342 --> 00:29:23,644
and like they're looking at us the whole
time on how we're handling the situation.

541
00:29:23,644 --> 00:29:26,105
And that was also an important thing for.

542
00:29:26,185 --> 00:29:31,068
us to set that example for our kids that
we love no matter what and you know

543
00:29:31,068 --> 00:29:35,621
~ that he's more than his worst day or the
worst comment in the press

544
00:29:35,621 --> 00:29:41,325
and the worst case scenario and so that's
another thing we you know

545
00:29:41,545 --> 00:29:45,288
we were grappling with and making sure
that our kids see the best version of us.

546
00:29:45,288 --> 00:29:51,492
We we tried really hard to live a
normal life with our family during this

547
00:29:51,492 --> 00:29:55,074
all if it's possible. I'll give you a a
concrete example.

548
00:29:55,074 --> 00:29:56,074
~

549
00:29:56,528 --> 00:30:02,409
Our second daughter, during the trial
it was her senior year

550
00:30:02,409 --> 00:30:08,280
in high school and ~ her school has a
father daughter thing, she was going

551
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,941
to an all-girls school and they ha have a
father-daughter dinner dance that

552
00:30:12,941 --> 00:30:16,408
I would go to every year with my daughters
and

553
00:30:17,332 --> 00:30:23,393
the dads of the senior
girls are ~

554
00:30:23,763 --> 00:30:26,535
required to do a dance in front of the
whole school.

555
00:30:26,535 --> 00:30:32,199
And the dance was scheduled for exactly in
the middle of my trial.

556
00:30:32,199 --> 00:30:36,887
And I had to do two dances of like five
minutes long.

557
00:30:36,887 --> 00:30:40,615
And and we're talking about like BTS like
dances,

558
00:30:40,615 --> 00:30:46,689
like serious. ~ the
dads hire

559
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:51,833
a choreographer and dance to the music
that the kids like.

560
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:56,721
And it's a lot of work and and the dads
meet and prep every Saturday

561
00:30:56,721 --> 00:31:01,674
for like a month and a half and

562
00:30:57,729 --> 00:30:58,729
Wow.

563
00:31:02,015 --> 00:31:06,237
you get these videos. And so during my
trial,

564
00:31:06,237 --> 00:31:11,340
I would deal with the trial and then at
like nine o'clock, and also your daughter's

565
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:15,733
not supposed to see that you're preparing
for this dance or know anything about what

566
00:31:15,733 --> 00:31:17,764
the music's gonna be or the dances are
gonna be.

567
00:31:17,764 --> 00:31:19,125
And so I

568
00:31:20,487 --> 00:31:23,879
I I'm in the middle of trial and at ten
o'clock at night I'm pulling

569
00:31:23,879 --> 00:31:26,910
out like the dance steps and trying to
find a room where I can be

570
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:30,252
by myself and practice these dance moves.

571
00:31:30,252 --> 00:31:33,444
Yeah. And the funny thing was you know,

572
00:31:33,444 --> 00:31:38,066
when the trial there was like some cases
of witnesses saying all sorts

573
00:31:38,066 --> 00:31:39,667
of things about him and I asked him,

574
00:31:39,667 --> 00:31:41,478
like, Are you doing okay? You know,

575
00:31:41,478 --> 00:31:44,380
there's all of these th things that the
person said and he's like,

576
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:46,681
No, I was just practicing my dance moves
in my head.

577
00:31:46,681 --> 00:31:49,157
I wasn't paying attention to what's
happening.

578
00:31:49,157 --> 00:31:50,157
I was

579
00:31:50,766 --> 00:31:55,135
And ~ yeah, and so I look at the video and he

580
00:31:55,135 --> 00:31:58,762
was one of the best ones because you
remembered all of his steps.

581
00:32:00,238 --> 00:32:01,858
I guess it gives you focus, right?

582
00:32:01,858 --> 00:32:02,858
I

583
00:32:02,098 --> 00:32:03,599
mean, here's a thought for you.

584
00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:06,760
So you said your grandmother was your hero
at beginning Prathiba

585
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,080
right? And my grandmother and grandfather
are very much mine.

586
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,401
And when they were young, my grandfather
was a prisoner of war twice,

587
00:32:12,401 --> 00:32:15,912
in fact. So unlucky that he escaped from a
prison of war camp and

588
00:32:15,912 --> 00:32:19,203
got taken back into a prison of war camp
only like literally months later.

589
00:32:19,203 --> 00:32:21,043
My grandmother was told that he was dead.

590
00:32:21,043 --> 00:32:22,854
She was pregnant at the time with her
first son.

591
00:32:22,854 --> 00:32:25,774
She was told he was dead. And he turned
up at the door one day and knocked

592
00:32:25,774 --> 00:32:28,405
on the door. She'd had her first child and
she didn't even know he was alive.

593
00:32:29,069 --> 00:32:32,829
They turned back up, right? And they had
to deal with this whole challenging
period.

594
00:32:32,829 --> 00:32:37,849
Now, she always told me that the strongest
relationships are forged in fire.

595
00:32:37,849 --> 00:32:40,889
she said, they were married for like 50 years or
something,

596
00:32:40,889 --> 00:32:42,509
55, 60 years or something crazy.

597
00:32:42,509 --> 00:32:45,769
And she said it's because they went
through hardships together.

598
00:32:45,769 --> 00:32:49,769
And I'm an advocate for like, think that
relationships are formed when things

599
00:32:49,769 --> 00:32:53,269
are challenging. Now you've talked a lot
about compartmentalizing and trying

600
00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:57,089
to stay separate from trial and children
and trial and relationship.

601
00:32:57,089 --> 00:32:58,609
But do you think...

602
00:32:59,105 --> 00:33:02,285
that going through this made your
individual relationship and your
relationship with

603
00:33:02,285 --> 00:33:05,173
your kids stronger because of what you
went through.

604
00:33:05,887 --> 00:33:10,819
Yeah, ~ a hundred percent. I think seeing
somebody

605
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,141
in their worst moments and how they are,

606
00:33:15,141 --> 00:33:17,803
and you know, they're still love you,

607
00:33:17,803 --> 00:33:20,444
they still love you and you still love
them in that worst moment.

608
00:33:20,444 --> 00:33:25,196
There's something about that. ~ not
necessarily in the happiest moment

609
00:33:25,196 --> 00:33:28,598
or when you're out on a date, but like
when you're in that moment and

610
00:33:28,598 --> 00:33:30,869
you still love each other, then you know
that.

611
00:33:32,213 --> 00:33:34,225
that person truly loves you, right?

612
00:33:34,225 --> 00:33:37,369
Like no matter what. And they're gonna be
with you no matter what.

613
00:33:37,369 --> 00:33:41,844
And they're your rock. ~ and I think
that's how it is for us,

614
00:33:41,844 --> 00:33:44,908
right? Definitely. Yeah.

615
00:33:45,966 --> 00:33:48,346
If you could go back to the darkest
moments,

616
00:33:48,346 --> 00:33:53,306
do you think that now you tell yourself
different advice than you did at the time?

617
00:33:53,306 --> 00:33:55,886
Or do you think that you kind of live in
the moment anyway,

618
00:33:55,886 --> 00:33:56,986
there's nothing you can go back and
change?

619
00:33:56,986 --> 00:33:59,366
Like, what would you go back and tell
yourself over your shoulder as a ghost?

620
00:34:01,727 --> 00:34:04,948
I think about this and it's one thing
in particular.

621
00:34:04,948 --> 00:34:09,471
It's that we have this real sense that
like Prathiba described,

622
00:34:09,471 --> 00:34:11,253
when it came to the sentencing,

623
00:34:11,253 --> 00:34:16,076
after losing the trial, we moved from
passive mode to active mode.

624
00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:19,958
I I look back and I feel like for the
first few years,

625
00:34:16,397 --> 00:34:17,397
Mm.

626
00:34:19,958 --> 00:34:25,322
you know, f the the part before I met her
and the part after we were together going

627
00:34:25,462 --> 00:34:30,246
leading up to the trial, where we just
kind of I just kind of

628
00:34:31,015 --> 00:34:32,485
Let the lawyers do their thing.

629
00:34:32,485 --> 00:34:34,746
It's weird. I I used to be a lawyer.

630
00:34:34,746 --> 00:34:36,127
I used to be a federal prosecutor.

631
00:34:36,127 --> 00:34:41,978
I understood that world. But ~ to go back
to ~ the person I looked up to,

632
00:34:41,978 --> 00:34:43,789
Abraham Lincoln had this famous quote,

633
00:34:43,789 --> 00:34:46,770
~ which I don't remember the exact
phrasing,

634
00:34:46,770 --> 00:34:51,011
but it's basically like the lawyer who
chooses to represent themselves

635
00:34:51,011 --> 00:34:54,972
has an idiot for a client. ~ meaning like
you shouldn't you know,

636
00:34:53,377 --> 00:34:54,377
Hehehe

637
00:34:54,972 --> 00:34:57,453
because you you shouldn't represent
yourself because you

638
00:34:57,833 --> 00:35:00,755
you get emotion, you know, your personal
emotions get in the way.

639
00:35:00,755 --> 00:35:04,749
~ and I think I was overly mindful of
that.

640
00:35:04,749 --> 00:35:09,062
And and I was very paralyzed by the whole
thing.

641
00:35:09,062 --> 00:35:14,477
Like I think back to like the the version
of myself I was during the first parts

642
00:35:14,477 --> 00:35:17,009
of the case and up through losing the
trial.

643
00:35:17,779 --> 00:35:20,252
I don't recognize myself.

644
00:35:20,252 --> 00:35:23,535
I was a very passive person. I was very
deferential to my lawyers.

645
00:35:23,535 --> 00:35:28,000
I just like I just hoped for the best and
and tried to stay out of the way.

646
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,025
And when it came to after losing the
trial,

647
00:35:33,025 --> 00:35:36,448
we decided, the two of us, that we were
gonna win the sentencing.

648
00:35:36,448 --> 00:35:40,432
And I look and I believe we won the
sentencing because the two of us

649
00:35:41,258 --> 00:35:45,720
went into it together. And it didn't
happen instantly after losing the child.

650
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:47,761
So we lost the child at the beginning of
October.

651
00:35:47,761 --> 00:35:54,695
At the end of October, a good ~ a couple
of good friends called us and said,

652
00:35:54,695 --> 00:35:57,595
come spend a weekend with us. And we spent
the weekend with them

653
00:35:57,595 --> 00:36:00,087
and they basically said, stop moping,

654
00:36:00,087 --> 00:36:02,629
get off your butt, get back to life.

655
00:36:03,549 --> 00:36:07,431
And I don't think they were
saying like go take over

656
00:36:07,431 --> 00:36:10,472
the sentencing yourselves. They were
saying like get back to life,

657
00:36:10,472 --> 00:36:12,383
go do things. And so we came back,

658
00:36:12,383 --> 00:36:14,114
I remember because it was Halloween
weekend,

659
00:36:14,114 --> 00:36:17,295
and we came back on the first of November,

660
00:36:17,295 --> 00:36:23,178
and we just like we decided I need to get
going and do something.

661
00:36:23,178 --> 00:36:26,640
I started reaching out to all the
non-profits that had always wanted

662
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,821
me to work with them and that I'd worked
with in the past.

663
00:36:29,653 --> 00:36:32,255
~ just I needed to get busy thinking,

664
00:36:32,255 --> 00:36:37,849
get my brain going. And then we it this is
exactly when the Ukraine stuff

665
00:36:33,621 --> 00:36:35,195
Is this when the Ukraine stuff started
too?

666
00:36:35,195 --> 00:36:36,969
Yeah.

667
00:36:37,849 --> 00:36:44,464
We talked it over on
that weekend after our friends just kind

668
00:36:44,464 --> 00:36:47,587
of gave us the a bit of a kick in the
pants.

669
00:36:47,587 --> 00:36:50,369
And we went for this really long hike,

670
00:36:50,369 --> 00:36:54,042
the two of us on the last day that we were
there with our friends and

671
00:36:54,042 --> 00:36:55,553
we left them and went for this hike.

672
00:36:55,935 --> 00:36:57,496
And we talked about it and we said,

673
00:36:57,496 --> 00:37:01,508
I'm gonna go do the I'm gonna try and find
some place to volunteer.

674
00:37:01,508 --> 00:37:07,661
we talked it out and I just like I had
been very active in kind of like three
areas

675
00:37:07,661 --> 00:37:09,162
as a volunteer in the past. You know,

676
00:37:09,162 --> 00:37:11,033
one I had been helping with some Ukraine
stuff,

677
00:37:11,033 --> 00:37:15,595
but more I had been helping in
cybersecurity mentoring people and

678
00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:18,817
~ child safety stuff. And

679
00:37:19,779 --> 00:37:22,771
I'd worked with a lot of diversity
groups and cybersecurity as

680
00:37:22,771 --> 00:37:25,002
I was building my team. So I when we came
back,

681
00:37:25,002 --> 00:37:28,634
I started reaching out to the different
groups and seeing if I could help them.

682
00:37:28,634 --> 00:37:34,877
And ~ unfortunately none of them wanted to
be associated with me.

683
00:37:34,877 --> 00:37:38,219
All the ones that had bugged me for years
and that I had done stuff with,

684
00:37:38,219 --> 00:37:41,901
~ they just like they said, We can't be
associated with you,

685
00:37:41,901 --> 00:37:44,523
like it'll impact our fundraising and
stuff like that.

686
00:37:44,523 --> 00:37:47,684
The only people who didn't care about my
brand at that point were

687
00:37:47,684 --> 00:37:48,925
the people in Ukraine who had

688
00:37:49,391 --> 00:37:51,003
Bigger issues of concern.

689
00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:52,436
Yeah,

690
00:37:51,606 --> 00:37:54,792
they've got bigger concerns than the news
stories about Joe Sullivan.

691
00:37:54,792 --> 00:37:57,477
So I guess then what I'm taking from you
is if you'd go back,

692
00:37:57,477 --> 00:38:00,623
you'd have got more, your advice yourself
would be get active

693
00:38:00,623 --> 00:38:01,623
and more involved earlier.

694
00:38:02,309 --> 00:38:07,891
Yes. Take don't don't leave your your
life in other people's hands.

695
00:38:07,891 --> 00:38:11,133
Like you gotta take control and
we did that.

696
00:38:08,322 --> 00:38:09,322
Yeah.

697
00:38:11,133 --> 00:38:13,954
We really aggressively did that with the
case.

698
00:38:13,954 --> 00:38:19,136
~ we we we feel like we had a huge impact
on the sentencing because

699
00:38:14,635 --> 00:38:15,635
Make sense.

700
00:38:19,136 --> 00:38:26,079
of ~ we were we didn't proactively go out
and ask for for hundreds of letters,

701
00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:31,261
but we were supported with it and

702
00:38:31,955 --> 00:38:36,608
ended up having hundreds of people send l
like I always joke that this we

703
00:38:36,608 --> 00:38:42,271
we I got to experience my own Irish wake
during the during that extended period

704
00:38:39,892 --> 00:38:41,671
I know what you mean.

705
00:38:42,411 --> 00:38:45,633
because of ~ all these letters that kept
coming in.

706
00:38:45,633 --> 00:38:48,434
~ that people wrote to the judge.

707
00:38:48,434 --> 00:38:53,847
Yeah we we we submitted a hundred and
eighty six or something like that letters

708
00:38:53,847 --> 00:38:55,968
to the judge and one was signed by 60
people,

709
00:38:55,968 --> 00:38:59,110
another signed by 40 people, another
signed by thirty so like hundreds

710
00:38:59,110 --> 00:39:00,801
of people wrote letters.

711
00:39:01,151 --> 00:39:04,175
And then we we had a bunch of letters we
didn't even submit because they were more

712
00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:07,579
generic and we we thought they would like
distract from the impact

713
00:39:07,579 --> 00:39:11,503
of the other ones. So we did we did those
things.

714
00:39:11,503 --> 00:39:15,548
We were very active in saying what we
wanted in the ~ you know,

715
00:39:15,548 --> 00:39:18,051
in our legal arguments for a change.

716
00:39:18,051 --> 00:39:21,363
We were Yeah, and I knew the judge like
the back of my hand.

717
00:39:21,769 --> 00:39:24,061
I read every one of his former cases,

718
00:39:24,061 --> 00:39:27,605
like I understood what worked and what
didn't work.

719
00:39:27,605 --> 00:39:29,186
At the end of the day, we're all human,

720
00:39:29,186 --> 00:39:30,978
like even if you're a lawyer or a judge.

721
00:39:30,517 --> 00:39:31,978
You socially engineered the judge.

722
00:39:30,978 --> 00:39:33,260
Yeah.

723
00:39:31,978 --> 00:39:34,411
Here's

724
00:39:34,411 --> 00:39:37,490
where we're going here. Prathiba,

725
00:39:37,490 --> 00:39:39,175
what would you go back and tell yourself?

726
00:39:39,175 --> 00:39:41,788
Would it be the same lesson, like do more
earlier,

727
00:39:41,788 --> 00:39:43,249
~ or would it be something different?

728
00:39:44,686 --> 00:39:48,329
I think definitely do more earlier.

729
00:39:48,329 --> 00:39:51,351
I agree with that part.

730
00:39:51,351 --> 00:39:56,985
~ I think another ~ another aspect I think

731
00:39:56,985 --> 00:40:02,959
for me would also be like be okay with
getting help from the community,

732
00:40:02,959 --> 00:40:06,401
you know, like you know,

733
00:40:06,401 --> 00:40:09,864
just as people who are very individualists
were pretty good at like,

734
00:40:09,864 --> 00:40:11,385
you know, ~

735
00:40:11,701 --> 00:40:16,224
being strong on the outside. But ~ every
time that it's a call from

736
00:40:16,224 --> 00:40:18,525
a friend and they ask like how are you
doing,

737
00:40:18,525 --> 00:40:19,945
it actually made a difference.

738
00:40:19,945 --> 00:40:23,928
And to be okay and be more vulnerable with
your friends,

739
00:40:23,928 --> 00:40:28,761
family, you know, that's another thing I
think I would tell myself that it's that

740
00:40:28,761 --> 00:40:34,554
it's okay to get help. Yeah. That's I that
that really resonates with me.

741
00:40:30,985 --> 00:40:32,167
So really, it's valuable lesson.

742
00:40:34,554 --> 00:40:38,617
I think that I I'm bad at asking people
for help and

743
00:40:39,765 --> 00:40:42,598
I even in even in these situations,

744
00:40:42,598 --> 00:40:44,330
I don't think I was very good at it.

745
00:40:44,330 --> 00:40:46,532
But when I started asking for help,

746
00:40:46,532 --> 00:40:50,556
it was amazing to see how many people
stepped up.

747
00:40:51,607 --> 00:40:53,054
Yeah, the community stands together,

748
00:40:53,054 --> 00:40:56,671
right? One last question. ~ Have you seen
the movie About Time?

749
00:40:58,989 --> 00:41:00,149
You should go and watch it, it on your
list,

750
00:41:00,149 --> 00:41:05,129
watch it tonight. It's a movie about a
family where the men are able to time
travel,

751
00:41:02,001 --> 00:41:03,001
Yeah.

752
00:41:05,129 --> 00:41:07,089
right? And they're able to go back in time
and relive things.

753
00:41:07,089 --> 00:41:08,089
There's a bit of a butterfly effect,

754
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:10,389
but it's a brilliant movie. It's probably
my wife's favorite movie.

755
00:41:10,389 --> 00:41:13,829
And one of the interesting things about it
is towards the end,

756
00:41:13,829 --> 00:41:15,169
when he goes back and relives moments,

757
00:41:15,169 --> 00:41:17,509
he says that when you come back into the
present,

758
00:41:17,509 --> 00:41:21,929
you're able to be grateful for things that
happened then that you're not able to,

759
00:41:21,929 --> 00:41:23,469
that you wouldn't be able to get for
otherwise,

760
00:41:23,469 --> 00:41:26,269
right? It's about learning from your
experience and seeing what you're grateful
for.

761
00:41:26,269 --> 00:41:28,689
I guess that's my question is now,

762
00:41:29,229 --> 00:41:31,132
It's kind of done, it's over. Like,

763
00:41:31,132 --> 00:41:33,737
what are you grateful for now?

764
00:41:33,737 --> 00:41:36,462
What do you realize you're grateful for
that you didn't know you were then?

765
00:41:36,462 --> 00:41:38,065
Like, what realizations have you had?

766
00:41:39,392 --> 00:41:44,365
It's so funny you say this because just
this week when we were at church on
Sunday,

767
00:41:44,365 --> 00:41:47,884
I told him, I came out and I said,

768
00:41:47,884 --> 00:41:51,589
~ one of the things I was gratitude and
just

769
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:57,633
how ~ how I just like feel this gratitude
that we're in this place

770
00:41:58,053 --> 00:42:02,396
at this time when, you know, he could have
just been coming out of prison right now.

771
00:42:04,545 --> 00:42:08,567
And like there's so many things we're
grateful for for that time.

772
00:42:08,567 --> 00:42:11,849
And actually even this conversation is
helping remember that,

773
00:42:11,849 --> 00:42:13,839
you know, my family and friends,

774
00:42:13,839 --> 00:42:16,131
not one of them looked at me and said,

775
00:42:16,131 --> 00:42:17,621
What are you doing with this person?

776
00:42:17,621 --> 00:42:20,913
Like every one of them was like support
supportive.

777
00:42:20,913 --> 00:42:25,055
So there's so many things we're grateful
for and and and I think the main thing

778
00:42:25,055 --> 00:42:28,416
is family for me. ~ yeah.

779
00:42:26,412 --> 00:42:27,412
Hmm.

780
00:42:28,416 --> 00:42:34,179
Yeah, ~ I'm I'm grateful for for Prathiba
being there with me through it all.

781
00:42:34,279 --> 00:42:37,580
Like that that period where I was able to
take control,

782
00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:40,201
I wouldn't have been able to do it the
same way without her.

783
00:42:40,201 --> 00:42:44,753
Because you just go through so many
emotional ups and downs when you're

784
00:42:44,753 --> 00:42:46,184
in the middle of something like this.

785
00:42:46,184 --> 00:42:52,747
And ~ sometimes you just need a shoulder
and ~ other times

786
00:42:52,747 --> 00:42:57,949
you need a kick in the pants and ~ and
other times you need some clapping and

787
00:42:58,409 --> 00:43:02,682
like having a partner through it who was
really in it with you may meant a lot.

788
00:43:02,682 --> 00:43:04,493
So so I would say that's number one.

789
00:43:04,493 --> 00:43:06,195
Number two was definitely family.

790
00:43:06,195 --> 00:43:08,556
~ we had so much family support.

791
00:43:08,556 --> 00:43:10,157
I have six brothers and sisters.

792
00:43:10,157 --> 00:43:14,000
And but they all live on the other side of
the country.

793
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,502
We live in California and they're up east
coast and Europe.

794
00:43:16,502 --> 00:43:19,116
But And they all visited during trial.

795
00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:20,765
You know they were there in the court.

796
00:43:21,695 --> 00:43:25,987
So we had a we had a constant rotation of
family coming out and supporting.

797
00:43:25,987 --> 00:43:30,807
And then like the cybersecurity community
~ was outstanding.

798
00:43:30,807 --> 00:43:35,463
You know, it's a people go into
cybersecurity ~ not because they think
it's

799
00:43:35,463 --> 00:43:36,683
the most lucrative profession.

800
00:43:36,683 --> 00:43:40,436
They go into it because it's a profession
that I think a noble profession.

801
00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:41,436
It's people who

802
00:43:43,304 --> 00:43:44,994
want to help other people. You know,

803
00:43:44,994 --> 00:43:49,777
we get to use technology, but we do it in
the service of of protecting people.

804
00:43:49,777 --> 00:43:54,079
And it shows in that community in times
like this.

805
00:43:50,208 --> 00:43:51,208
Hmm.

806
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:56,307
~ the last thing I'll say on this,

807
00:43:56,307 --> 00:43:58,141
you know, what are you grateful for?

808
00:43:58,141 --> 00:44:00,282
I thought Prathiba was going to say
something different,

809
00:44:00,282 --> 00:44:03,963
which is she more than once has said to
me,

810
00:44:03,963 --> 00:44:07,265
going through this was the best thing that
ever happened to you.

811
00:44:09,387 --> 00:44:15,960
Yeah. It just ~ it completely changed the
way we look at the world.

812
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,313
And I don't like

813
00:44:17,873 --> 00:44:23,316
Some of the lessons are best learned
during hard times and the lessons

814
00:44:23,316 --> 00:44:28,438
we learned from going through this is just
it's changed our perspective.

815
00:44:28,438 --> 00:44:31,089
It's you know it's changed how we looked
at the world and what

816
00:44:31,089 --> 00:44:33,720
our priorities are and who our friends
are.

817
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:37,852
Like friends are the ones who stand by you
when there's nothing

818
00:44:37,852 --> 00:44:42,084
to gain from standing by you. And we know
who those people are now.

819
00:44:42,084 --> 00:44:45,296
~ and we just like there's so many
intangibles.

820
00:44:45,296 --> 00:44:47,747
So I'm I'm actually grateful for that
experience that we

821
00:44:47,797 --> 00:44:52,654
went through together and I'm happy that I
was around for that experience.

822
00:44:52,654 --> 00:44:57,802
~ I think that there's this one scene that
sums it

823
00:44:57,982 --> 00:45:02,349
all up when we when I talk about gratitude
and what we're grateful for.

824
00:45:02,789 --> 00:45:07,281
is when we won the sentencing and we came
out,

825
00:45:07,281 --> 00:45:11,853
like the whole courtroom was filled with
friends and people from the community.

826
00:45:11,853 --> 00:45:15,385
When we won the sentencing, there was like
a little bit of a press and

827
00:45:15,385 --> 00:45:18,456
we came out and the whole hallway was
filled with,

828
00:45:18,456 --> 00:45:24,089
you know, people from ~ his old eBay
colleagues and Facebook colleagues

829
00:45:24,089 --> 00:45:26,080
and people from the community.

830
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,432
And when we came out they all clapped and
it was like,

831
00:45:30,432 --> 00:45:32,643
you know, you're supposed to be quiet in
the courtroom.

832
00:45:32,743 --> 00:45:34,835
But that didn't necessarily take place.

833
00:45:34,835 --> 00:45:39,549
And it was literally like a movie scene
where we came out and there's just
hundreds

834
00:45:39,549 --> 00:45:41,050
of people standing and clapping.

835
00:45:41,050 --> 00:45:44,292
And I think that kind of sums it up.

836
00:45:44,292 --> 00:45:49,276
Yeah. That was the final climactic
conclusion.

837
00:45:50,815 --> 00:45:54,094
I feel like that's also a great place to
end ~ on quite a deep

838
00:45:54,094 --> 00:45:57,193
and philosophical thought. Is there
anything I should have asked you that

839
00:45:57,193 --> 00:45:59,219
I didn't ask you? I ask every guest the
same thing.

840
00:46:03,393 --> 00:46:05,650
I think you got some of the highs and some
of the lows,

841
00:46:05,650 --> 00:46:06,650
that's for sure.

842
00:46:07,277 --> 00:46:09,997
That was always the aim. Thank you very
much for your time.

843
00:46:09,997 --> 00:46:13,037
And I think that one thing that I can say
is that you talk about

844
00:46:13,037 --> 00:46:14,037
the community strengthening you.

845
00:46:13,857 --> 00:46:16,257
I've seen and I've you speak in a lot of
places.

846
00:46:16,257 --> 00:46:17,957
You've given back a tremendous amount of
community.

847
00:46:17,957 --> 00:46:21,097
There's a lot of us who have learned
things about cyber insurance

848
00:46:21,097 --> 00:46:25,177
and ensuring yourself and how to deal with
breaches and personal communications

849
00:46:25,177 --> 00:46:27,157
and communication plans that none of us
had ever thought about before.

850
00:46:27,157 --> 00:46:32,317
So I think you have given back in
bucketfuls what the community gave you in
support.

851
00:46:32,317 --> 00:46:35,377
So thank you as well. And thank you both
for sharing in quite an open

852
00:46:35,377 --> 00:46:36,377
and authentic way.

853
00:46:36,493 --> 00:46:38,153
I'm grateful we had this conversation.

854
00:46:38,153 --> 00:46:40,093
So if anyone wants to learn any more,

855
00:46:40,093 --> 00:46:41,533
can reach out to Joe and Prachi by
LinkedIn,

856
00:46:41,533 --> 00:46:45,833
hopefully not in a dating approach and
learn more about the stuff they

857
00:46:43,625 --> 00:46:44,625
Yeah.

858
00:46:45,833 --> 00:46:48,513
do in Ukraine too. They do a lot for
Ukraine to raise technology

859
00:46:48,513 --> 00:46:49,953
and computing equipment into the Ukraine,

860
00:46:49,953 --> 00:46:51,973
which I think is really important as well
that we try and ways

861
00:46:51,973 --> 00:46:52,993
to get back ourselves. But otherwise,

862
00:46:52,993 --> 00:46:55,569
thank you both very much. It's been an
absolute pleasure on my

863
00:46:57,045 --> 00:46:58,045
Thank you, Jack.

864
00:46:58,338 --> 00:46:59,338
Thanks, bye bye.

865
00:46:59,734 --> 00:47:00,734
Yeah.