Postmodern Realities Podcast Episode 455: A Review of Superman (2025): Up, Up, and Away (Again)

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Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the Postmodern
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Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research Institute
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and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cogdell, Managing editor
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of the Christian Research Journal. It's July twenty twenty five,
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and this is episode four hundred and fifty five, which
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is going to be a spoiler filled conversation about the
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twenty twenty five film Superman, which is now in theaters.
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Today's guest is Colbergett. He is a graduate of Dallas
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Theological Seminary and the Moody Bible Institute. He teaches systematic
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theology and Bible exposition classes and writes extensively about theology
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and popular culture. Cole has written a film review for
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the Christian Research Journal and his review is called Up,
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Up and Away Again, a review of Superman, and you
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can read it for free at equipped dot org. That's
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e qu ip DOTRG. Cole, it's good to have you
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back on the podcast for another movie installment.
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Always good to be here.
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Thank you.
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Well. This time we are talking about the Superman movie,
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which is a restart I guess to the entire DC universe.
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It's been really Superhero stuff has been dominated mostly by
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Marvel over the last decade or so, and so Superman,
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though it's pretty iconic, it goes back quite a long time,
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and I think it's really recognizable to many generations. So
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maybe not everybody knows a lot about this character, but
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can you give us kind of a high overview of
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whose Superman is sure.
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To put it simply, Superman is the foundational superhero. He's
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the archetype from which the modern superhero genre really was born.
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He's not the first costumed crime fighter to appear in fiction,
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but he is the one who crystallized the genre into
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what we now sort of recognize as the superhero mythos.
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Before Superman, you had characters that are now referred to
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as proto superheroes. So these would be the characters from
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the Pulps like Zoro, Doc Savage, the Shadow, the Phantom
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Flashcoordon Buck Rodgers. These characters who operated, many of them
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outside the law, with very colorful persona's secret identities, a
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flair for justice, stuff like that. These characters, these proto superheroes,
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laid the groundwork. But when Superman debuted in Action Comics
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number one back in nineteen thirty eight, something changed. The
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premise of Superman is pretty simple, and this is the
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story that I'm sure everybody sort of knows. He's an
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alien called cal El who is sent from the dying
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planet Crypton by his parents. Rocketed to Earth as an infant,
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he lands in the American Midwest, where he's adopted by
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this kindly old farming couple, Jonathan and Martha Kent, who
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raise him with traditional values, humility, compassion, self control, that
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sort of a thing. And as he matures, he discovers
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he has powers superhuman strength, speed, flight, of vulnerability. He
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envisioned all that stuff. But what defines him isn't what
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he can do so much as it is what he
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chooses to do with that power. And that's where Superman
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sort of transcends genre and steps into the realm of
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what you know, in literary.
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Studies might be called archetypes.
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He's part Moses, part Hercules, part Christ. You know, like Moses,
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he's placed in a vessel as an infant, sent away
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from destruction. Like Hercules, he possesses incredible strength and faces
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these impossible challenges. And like Jesus, he's this figure who
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descends not to dominate, but to serve. He doesn't come
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to rule over humanity, but instead to live among us,
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to protect us, even when we don't really understand him.
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There's an archetype there. It's pulling from a very obvious
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and rich vein of mythology, Clark Kent. Of course, the
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what is often called the mild mannered reporter for the
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Daily Planet is his human disguise, but it's also a
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vital part of his identity. He's not pretending to be human.
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He was raised human. His moral compass was shaped by,
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you know, very real and earthy human love. So the
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tension that runs through the Superman stories about identity, which
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this new film does tap into, what does what does
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it mean to be a man who belongs to two worlds,
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to have godlike powers but a human heart. That's sort
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of a thing. That's the essence of Superman. Not power
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without limits, but power tempered by restraint. He's the character
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who could do anything and chooses to do what's right.
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That's the dramatic engine. He's the ideal, not because he's invincible,
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but because he's incorruptible. You know, he's the answer to
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the question, well, what if someone with ultimate power chose
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to be good? So for someone who's never engaged with
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the character, that's the basic premise, But I would say
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that also plays into why he endures. I mean, Superman
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isn't just another character. Even though today we're saturated with superheroes.
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Superman often in his stories is sort of like a
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think of it, like maybe a cultural roar shock test
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for our view of power and morality and that.
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Sort of a thing.
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Every generation reinterprets him, but the core always sort of
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remains the same.
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So Superman is a character that's been around, I mean
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it's twenty twenty five for almost one hundred years, and
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so what are some of the maybe defining moments in
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Superman's legacy and what is keeping him relevant because we're
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still telling his story or a version of his story,
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almost one hundred years after he was first created.
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Yeah, the history of Superman is really sort of fascinating
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because it's also the history of the American superhero. He's
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the foundation, like we said, the prototype, the character that
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turned comic books into a cultural force, and to understand
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his evolution, you really do have to look at the
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broad movements of comic book history. Now, for people who
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study this sort of thing, I know It's sort of
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a funny idea, right, people study comic books. Yeah, These
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movements in comic book history are often referred to as
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the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, and
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the Model Age because Superman's character has been reinterpreted and
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reshaped in each In each one, we'll just sort of
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go through them in that order. Then the Golden Age,
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So the Golden Age of comic books is generally considered
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the late nineteen thirties, when Superman appears and sort of
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ushers in this new age of comic books through the
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about the mid nineteen fifties. As we said, Superman debuted
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in Action Comics number one. It was not Superman number one.
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It was Action Comics Number one, a title that still
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runs today, if you can believe it, Action Comics number
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one in nineteen thirty eight. He was created by Jerry
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Siegel and Joe Schuster. At the time, he wasn't quite
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the cosmic powerhouse we think of today. He couldn't fly,
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He just jumped really, really far. He was more of
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a sort of a crusading social avenger, and those very
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early issues Superman would tackle corrupt landlords, wife beaters, war profiteers.
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It was very grounded, like street level stuff. He was
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a kind of New Deal era folk hero, a fantasy
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of justice in a world that you know, could feel
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deeply unjust, and in many ways this was his most
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I guess to use the word radical, This was his
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most radical phase. He wasn't fighting aliens yet, he was
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fighting us, or at least the worst of us, and
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that grounded focus helped him connect with readers who were
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trying to survive the great depression of World War Two.
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Now the Silver Age which has become there's sort of
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been in recent years. I would say a rediscovery of
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the Silver Age and what it has done, because this
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is some of the stuff that was used to be
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sort of laughed off as silly, but people have really
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gone back to that, and I would say that the
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new Superman film certainly has a great affinity for Silver
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Age era Superman. Basically, the Silver Age is going to
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run from the mid nineteen fifties to the early nineteen seventies,
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that transition from the sixties into the seventies. By the fifties,
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Superman had started to evolve, and of course this is
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walking alongside the growing interest in science fiction. So This
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era of Superman is the era of Kryptonite. It's the
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era of the Fortress of Solitude, of Solitude, It's the
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era of bizarro, brainiac, the phantom Zone. The stories became fantastical,
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even bizarre by today's standards. They're real weird, you know,
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Superman as a lion, a baby giant ant. They were
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rich in imagination, and it had writers like Auto Bender
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and mort Weisinger was the editor then, and they leaned
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into this very childlike sense of wonder, and so Superman became,
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you know, less of a social crusader and more of
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this godlike space dad, perfect moral, even a little remote.
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But that version of Superman is crucial to the character's
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legacy because it really codified the mythology of the character.
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Crypton became a fully realized culture. The idea of Superman
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as the last son of a doomed civilization began to
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carry a kind of tragic weight. And that brings us
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up to the Bronze Age, which runs from the nineteen
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seventies to around the mid eighties mid late eighties. The
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Bronze Age brought with it a shift toward more serious storytelling.
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This is where a lot of the comics of this era,
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you know, begin to begin to get us to the
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modern age of comic books. So this is where you
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had creators like O'Neill, Bates, Elliot Magan. They've began grounding
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Superman emotionally. He was still powerful, but his internal life
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started to matter more. We began to see stories that
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explored his alienation, his loneliness, his struggle with identity. And
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of course this era also begins to grapple with larger
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questions of relevance, right, I mean, in a world with
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Vietnam and Watergate and this rising distrust in institutions, what
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does Superman represent? Is he too perfect? Is he too detached?
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These are all questions that writers would begin to wrestle
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with more directly in years to come. And this brings
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us up to the modern Age of which kicked off
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in about the mid nineteen eighties. And I would say
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the biggest turning point in the character's recent history was
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the Man of Still mini series by John Byrne. DC
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had just completed what is called Crisis on Infinite Earth's.
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This was a line wide reboot which was very new
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for its time in the comic book industry, and Burne
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was brought into to quite literally reinvent Superman for a
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new generation, and his take on Superman was more human,
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less omniscient, if you will. Clark Kent became the real
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identity Superman was the performance. Krypton was made very cold
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and sterile, emphasizing the emotional bond between Clark and Ma
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and Paw Kent as human parents, and that shift made
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him more relatable, more grounded. And it's also around this
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time that Lex Luthor was reimagined as well, not as
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this sort of mad scientist, but this kind of corporate tycoon,
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a kind of dark mirror to the American dream, and
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this more modern Luthor the is still the version we
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tend to see on screen. Then, of course, in the
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early nineties came the death of Superman, which really was
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a cultural phenomenon. In this storyline, Superman fights a creature
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called Doomsday in this knockdown, drag out brawl and dies
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saving the world. This is the storyline that you saw
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adapted in Zack Snyder's movies when Superman is killed fighting Doomsday.
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But it was front page news in the nineties. People
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lined up at comic shops and the story, of course,
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it's not great literature, but it cemented the idea that
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Superman still mattered to the public. He came back, of course,
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but not unchanged that whole arc. His death, the rise
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of the so called Superman in his absence. His resurrection
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asked you know what a world without Superman would look like,
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and it made the case that we still need him.
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In the two thousands, you have writers like Geoff Johns
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and Grant Morrison who are offering up some of the
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more thoughtful takes on Superman. In particular, Morrison's All Star Superman,
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which ran from two thousand and five to two thousand
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and eight, if I remember correctly, is often cited as
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one of the best Superman stories ever told. It's very strange,
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it's deeply mythic, it's poetic, it's one of the stories
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that clearly inspires this new film, and it's also deeply moving.
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It strips Superman down to his essence, a man who
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always finds a way to save someone, even when he
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himself is dying. And then Jeff John's meanwhile wrote definitive
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arcs like Brainiac and Origin, which helped to re establish
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a clear continuity and emotional center for the character. And
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then in more recent years, the Superman Rebirth run by
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Peter Toamassi and Patrick Gleeson has been pretty well received.
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It introduced Superman as a husband and a father raising
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a son John Kent with Lois Lane. That gave the
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character a new dynamic. Still an alien, still a hero,
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but also a family man trying to raise a child
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with the same values that he was raised with.
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It was a.
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Fairly elegant way to modernize Superman without losing what makes
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him time was. There are some really big names and
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comics right now who've had goes at the character. Brian
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Michael Bindis as one of them. But Tamassi and Gleason's
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run has been well received but sort of unsung as
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far as the critical reviews go, And it's one of
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the runs I like the most so as far as
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what keeps the character going through all of that. To
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answer that question, it's not just power fantasy. If that
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were the case, he'd have faded into the background.
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Now.
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What keeps him going in the public imagination, I think
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is largely his restraint, his moral clarity, the idea that
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someone with all the power in the world would rather
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serve than rule. That's still compelling to us, especially in
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an age that is increasingly distrustful of power. Superman endures
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as a man who could be a God, but chooses
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not to be so. Across the decade, Superman has been
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reinvented again and again. But whether he's this social crusader
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in the thirties or a struggling dad in the twenty twenties,
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the idea behind him stays the same, strength under control,
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power in the service of compassion, and that idea clearly
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still matters.
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You won't want to miss out on this very special
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print edition of the Christian Research Journal That's coming up,
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00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.440
which is a common name of more than a couple
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of years of primary research into a Chinese cult called
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the Eastern Lightning Cult, and I noted before that about
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a decade ago they had more than four million adherents worldwide.
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So this particular cult, known also as the Church of
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Almighty God, claims that a Chinese woman is the reincarnated Christ,
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who is literally Almighty God. Not only do they have
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theological heresies and they deny the Orthodox doctrines of for example,
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the Trinity, the bodily Resurrection, and biblical authority, they also
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have engaged in some very troubling psychological intimidation and even
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physical assaults of folks. So you won't really want to
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miss on this in depth deep dive on the Eastern
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Lightning Cult. And the way that you can get this
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one hundred page print edition of the journal is to
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be a partner with the Christian Research Journal and the
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Christian Research Institute. By making a donation and for I
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thank you for your gift, you can receive this very
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you can give us a partnering gift where you will
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00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.799
get this one hundred page deep dive into the expose
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of the Eastern Lightning Cult. Well, now back to my
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conversation about the new twenty twenty five Superman film with Colbriguett. Well,
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moments ago you were talking about the various different ages
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of this character in comic book history, and one of
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the things you touched on was there was a series
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in which she dies and is resurrected. So there are
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some you know, messianic connections when it comes to this character,
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and you talk about this in your article. So why
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do you think that those kinds of themes are there,
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and you know, is that something that makes people fascinated
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with this character to have those kind of Messianic thematic
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things that define Superman.
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Yeah, it's a good question, because it's it's sort of
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obligatory at this point that I think any Christian, any
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any Christian who touches Superman in any sort of public capacity,
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they have to have like the obligatory Messianic imagery or
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touch on it as something like that. But I really
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do think it's worth pointing out that the Messianic connections
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when it comes to Superman's character is less about deliberate
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theology and more about cultural intuition. Superman was created by
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two Jewish immigrants in the thirties, and his story, you know,
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draws vary deeply from that well of longing and for justice,
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for deliverance, for someone to stand in the gap, that
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inevitably takes on Messianic tones. He's sent by his father
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Jorell from the heavens. He grows up in obscurity, he
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reveals his strength in a time of need, he suffers
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to protect others. But what's important in this particular discussion
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is that none of this feels like a forced allegory.
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A lot of times when when you do a messianic story,
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it can come across as a forced allegory, and Superman's
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very importantly, I don't think does it resonates because it
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taps into the immoral imagination of Western culture, particularly American culture.
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Superman is a very American character, and that actually some
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reviewers critics have pointed out that that's probably why the
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new Superman film is not performing as well internationally as
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it is domestically, because Superman has always been such a
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thoroughly American character and his story taps in to the
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moral imagination of the West, the moral imagination of America,
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which has been so profoundly shaped by the Christian story.
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Do you think it's more American than Batman? Where Gotham
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City is like the Ark, his earthly parents being in
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Kansas being like, you know, yeah.
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Folk, it's a different kind. So the question of Batman
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and Superman is interesting here. Batman, so I'm actually gonna
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take this back to the proto superheroes for just a second.
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Batman is the the next evolution of a very particular
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flavor of proto superhero. Batman is the next iteration of
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a character called the shadow of a character like the
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Phantom Superman. He pulls from that well, but is gonna
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have more in common with a Doc Savage or something
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like that. But there's another strand of proto Superhero that
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Batman is the fruition of. Now, why do I say that?
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Because what Batman is doing, I'm gonna say it's a
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little more metropolitan. The kind of Batman's story that Batman
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hat really isn't like the Superman story that Superman inhabits.
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If if you're wanting to talk about it in the
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strands of visit more American than Batman, I don't know.
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If it's more American, I would certainly say it's a
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different flavor of American.
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I mean the American, Yeah, I.
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Mean Batman is this gritty, sort of street level in
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the city urban. I guess it would be the better
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way to say it. It's very urban in its storytelling,
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and you know, Batman is always stalking, you know, gangsters
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and stuff like that, whereas Superman's story it's just different.
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So it's a different flavor. I would say it's a
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different facet of American mythology.
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So I was wondering about the film itself, so like,
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I don't really know that much about Superman as a
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comic book character. And then, of course, you know, seeing
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the Superman films I was exposed to was the Christopher
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Reeves version back in the day, and I guess was
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that the eighties. And I want to find out more
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about the film. But first of all, like I always
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ask you, is is this a movie that's appropriate for
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Christian art audiences in particular?
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Yeah?
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I think.
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I think there's nothing spiritually problematic or theologically suspect, you
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know about the film. It's not preachy. It doesn't really
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gesture toward any religious system, and it's not trying to
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be a sermon in a cape.
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Now, there are some.
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Very i would say intentional, you know, political motifs throughout
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the film, and it sort of is. It's paid off
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in a very funny line towards the end of the
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movie about the only thing conservatives and liberals can agree on.
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But it's not overtly preachy in the sense of again
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gesturing toward anyone religious system. But it does do I
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would say, what these kinds of stories are very good at,
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which is it lifts the moral imagination, it presents goodness
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as admirable. It suggests that self restraint and compassion are
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more impressive than domination, and I would say that that
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actually would make it potentially fruitful for conversation for the
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Christian to see it and be able to have those
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conversations with others who see it. I think think it's
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a film that teenagers could could very comfortably see. I
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don't think there's anything in the film that would turn
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people off from that. Now, if the question is just
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you know, taste, I think different people will get, you know,
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different mileage out of this movie because it's a very
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quirky film. But other than that, I mean, yeah, I
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think it's a film that Christians can see.
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I'd really like you to unpack the film and you
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know what is going on. As I mentioned at the
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top of this podcast, it's going to be spoiler filled
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because when I saw it first of all, I said,
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I don't know that much about superhero things in general,
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and I feel like it was dropped into the middle
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of this action. And then I'd like you to also
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tell our listeners a little bit of the backstory of
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how this film came to be with a new studio
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focusing on DC, just as we had studios focusing on
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Marvel because there's so much that's going to be coming out,
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and I think that kind of informs what they've done
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or their emphasis here. And I, just as the person
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00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.960
who doesn't know that much about superhero things, I was
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00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.039
confused because it felt like it was introducing a whole
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00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.799
bunch of different characters that I'm supposed to know about
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00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.440
that I don't know who they are, and putting them
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00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.759
in these various different settings and it doesn't really it
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00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:25.440
didn't particularly answer who these people were. They just exsumed
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some knowledge on my part perhaps, But I really would
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00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.920
like you to take your time to unpack this for people,
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because I think unless you're a comic book nerd or
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in that you know sphere, maybe the average person Christian
399
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.519
or not going to it might not really know the
400
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.480
full scope of this story and what the context of
401
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:45.119
all these other characters are in the film.
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00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:47.200
Yeah, so.
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00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.440
We'll start by just saying this isn't an origin story,
404
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.960
which is, you know, a smart move. Superman already exists
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in this world, this world being the world that that
406
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:07.160
gun is creating for this new era of DC films,
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which we'll talk about in just a minute. Anyway, Superman
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00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.279
is established, people know who he is, but he's he's
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still figuring out how to be both Superman and Clark Kent,
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how to belong to two worlds and serve both. The
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00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:30.000
broader story involves Lex Luthor played by Nicholas Holt, as
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00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:36.519
this very powerful tech mogul with deeply cynical views about
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humanity and power. There are threats to the world, of course,
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but the real drama of this story is centered on
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Superman's character, who is Superman in a world that doesn't
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quite know what to do with someone who chooses to
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do good for it its own sake. That's the tension
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that Gun explores, and it really is sort of gives
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the film a surprising amount of depth. I said before that,
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and I think I may have put this in the review,
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that it's sort of the most sincere film that Gun
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00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:23.599
has made because it's not a story that's interested in
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00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.599
power levels. So many people try to make Superman story
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00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:31.279
about that, and it sort of tries to mind drama
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from that sort of a thing, and this movie sort
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00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.279
of establishes at the outset Superman is the most powerful
427
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.400
meta human on the planet. That's it. It's stated right
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there at the beginning. It takes care of that and
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00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:48.319
it's more interested in what he chooses to do. You know,
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he chooses to do good for its own sake, and
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that sort of throws the world because it's a very
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I would say, you know, a lot of people would
433
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:00.079
characterize the times of which we live a cynical and
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00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.400
there's some truth to that. I would say, there's a
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00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.319
lot of truth to that, and Superman is a not
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00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.240
a cynical character. He looks very naive to the rest
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00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.519
of the world and it minds a lot of its
438
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:16.319
dramatic tension from that. Now, as far as these other
439
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:23.039
characters that you've mentioned, this is what's maybe unique about
440
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Gun's approach.
441
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:25.519
To this.
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00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:32.480
Is, you know, he's he has built a sort of
443
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:39.000
fully fleshed out world behind the scenes, and this is
444
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:44.079
just viewers not their first I guess the first would
445
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:46.640
technically be Creature Commandos, which is a TV show on
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00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:52.839
HBO Max. But this is the first, you know, widely
447
00:31:53.519 --> 00:32:00.200
publicized film for popular, you know, popular audiences. This is
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00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.480
their first introduction to that world that he's building, and
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00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.920
that comes as a result of James Gunn and his
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00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:10.480
producing partner Peter Saffron.
451
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And is it because he was so successful with The
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00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:14.759
Guardian's Marvel films.
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That was part of it. He also did a film
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for DC before he and Saffron were brought on board.
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He did the film The Suicide Squad, not David A
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or Suicide Squad, but The Suicide Squad. I think in
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twenty twenty one. James Gunn did that movie and it
458
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was it was a hit. I mean, the critics liked it,
459
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:45.720
people liked it. It's very different. It's sort of James
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00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:52.200
gun unhinged. It's actually very vulgar and crass and all
461
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.599
of that. And again that's sort of what makes Superman
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as a movie even more interesting, at least to me,
463
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:03.559
because it's gun restraint. We've seen what James Gunn and
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00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:08.359
a rated R movie looks like. We've seen what James
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gun without with with the you know, with the shackles off.
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We've seen what he does, and this is James Gunn restraint,
467
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holding back, telling a different kind of story. And I
468
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.759
think that's important. You know, gun has sort of built
469
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.599
his career Guardians of the Galaxy, the Suicide Squad. He's
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built his career in this superhero world. Telling these stories
471
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about losers and misfits and these out of sorts people
472
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who don't belong. And here with this story, he's given
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the most recognizable superhero of all. If there is one
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character that belongs in the discussion of superheroes, it is Superman.
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And so that the story that he tells is different
476
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from what he is is usually telling. And you know this,
477
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this movie is sort of pulling double duty. It's a
478
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.680
Superman film, but as I said, it's also the introduction
479
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.599
to the broader DC Universe or what's being called the
480
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:12.440
DC Universe.
481
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:13.119
Uh.
482
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.719
And again that's that's something that Gun is spearheading. So
483
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:22.000
Gun is co chairman and co CEO of DC Studios,
484
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:26.719
and under d C Studios, he co produces and executive
485
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:32.119
produces every film and television series under the DC Universe
486
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:40.679
media franchise. And the DC Universe was sort of conceived
487
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:46.320
as a kind of a reboot, if you will, of
488
00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:50.079
the uh what used to be called the d C EU,
489
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:55.000
the d C Extended Universe. The d C Extended Universe,
490
00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:03.119
of course, is the spade of films that began with
491
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:07.239
Man of Steel back in twenty thirteen under Zack Snyder.
492
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:13.280
It continued with twenty sixteens, you know, Batman v. Superman,
493
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:18.639
and there were I think something like twelve or thirteen
494
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:22.079
other movies that came out in that time that all
495
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.440
sort of shared continuity with what was going on in
496
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:33.039
the DCEU. So the Wonder Woman movies, Justice League, Aquaman,
497
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:38.360
those films, the Shazam movies, those were all part of
498
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:39.840
the DCEU.
499
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:42.320
Even James Gunns.
500
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:46.039
The Suicide Squad was part of the DCEU. But then
501
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:48.880
once he was brought in to sort of spearhead DC
502
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:53.159
Studios and you know, reconfigure everything, all of that has
503
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.519
sort of changed, and it's sort of obvious to see,
504
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.719
you know, Henry cavill is no longer Superman.
505
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:59.239
It's now David corn Sweat.
506
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:02.360
And even though Matt Reeves is doing his Batman stuff
507
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.880
that is separate from the Batman that will be introduced
508
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.159
to the DCU and stuff like that. So that's that's
509
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:12.599
sort of why there is a very wonky in the
510
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:17.280
last you know, ten years we've had We've had Superman movies,
511
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.280
but there are different kinds of Superman movies and it's
512
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.840
a different actor. And now you've got this one and
513
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.000
it's a completely new sort of thing that's creating a
514
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.360
new world that's fully realized, and you know, audiences are
515
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.320
just sort of coming into it. To describe it the
516
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.719
way that one of my filmmaker friends did who saw it,
517
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.000
he said, this is the first time I've really seen
518
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.440
a movie start with an opening crawl since Star Wars,
519
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:44.039
and we laughed about that, but he's right there. There's
520
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:49.000
sort of a there's a need to introduce the world
521
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.119
that has been established in this film for audiences, and
522
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.079
so when this movie begins, there's a little bit of
523
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:57.880
a crawl this you know, these these words that appear
524
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:02.639
on the screen that orient h to this version of
525
00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:05.760
the world that Gun has created. And it's it's not
526
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.719
it's it's very much a comic bookie in this way,
527
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:15.159
and that the world he has created is, uh, it's
528
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:20.599
like ours, but it's not quite ours. It's it's different.
529
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:26.119
It's a it's a world with you know, fantastical uh technology.
530
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:31.159
It's a world where you know, these superhero characters called
531
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:36.639
meta humans have been around for several hundred years. So
532
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:39.440
it's it's it's it's it's very much its own self
533
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:43.760
contained uh world that is similar to ours, but it
534
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.760
is actually quite different and it requires that sort of introduction.
535
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:49.840
For for audiences.
536
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.760
At the beginning, you just use the word comic bookie.
537
00:37:55.320 --> 00:38:00.440
And also in your article as opposed to like the
538
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.280
movies the exposition we find out about superheroes and all
539
00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:05.920
the movies that we've watched, especially if people are into
540
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.320
the Marvel series, no matter what character, it's just like
541
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:12.079
it's a movie after movie about the same character, like
542
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:16.400
Thora for example. But in your article you describe Superman,
543
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.400
this particular iteration of it as a Saturday morning cartoon
544
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.599
brought to life, and you just use the word comic bookie,
545
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:27.360
which seems to more cartoony to me. Can you unpack
546
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:32.599
what sets this film apart from all the other superhero
547
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:38.599
movies that we've seen in recent years, especially in the
548
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:39.480
Marvel universe.
549
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.119
Yeah, this is one of the most distinctive aspects of
550
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:50.760
gun Superman, and I can't take singular credit for that.
551
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:56.360
I actually think a lot of reviewers made this connection.
552
00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:59.519
They talked about it as if it's a Saturday morning cartoon,
553
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:05.800
and it's one of the things that certainly makes the
554
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:10.679
film stand out. Back I want to say in June,
555
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:14.159
the link is in the review In an interview with
556
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:20.239
Entertainment Weekly, Gunn directly cited the super Friends cartoon. Super
557
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:26.760
Friends was an old cartoon of DC characters that had Superman,
558
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:31.519
Batman and others in it that ran from the seventies
559
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:34.880
to the eighties, and he directly cited super Friends as
560
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.559
one of the foundational influences on his vision for the movie.
561
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:43.559
He said, I grew up reading DC and Marvel comics
562
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:47.519
and having worlds and universes of superheroes who were interacting.
563
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.360
I grew up watching super Friends on Saturday mornings. And
564
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.320
you really feel that, I think in the dna of
565
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:59.679
the film, not in a not in a campy or
566
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:03.679
not nostalgic way, but in the spirit of how the
567
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:06.360
world is built. And this, you know, sort of goes
568
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:12.119
to your point about it's there's all these characters, and
569
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.519
there's all these superheroes, and they're all very colorful, and
570
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:19.440
they're all interacting in this movie. And that's sort of
571
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:21.960
I think what everyone is picking up on when they say,
572
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:26.440
you know, a Saturday morning cartoon. Feel it's less about aesthetic.
573
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:28.880
I mean, it looks great. There was a huge budget
574
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.960
attached to this movie. It doesn't look like a cartoon
575
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:33.920
in the sense that it looks cheap, but it's more
576
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:40.159
about tone and world building logic. This version of the
577
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:46.519
DC universe isn't interested in, you know, greedy realism. This
578
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:52.480
is not Nolan's Batman. It's not interested in origin story realism.
579
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:58.719
It starts from the assumption that superheroes exist and that
580
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:02.280
the audience is okay with that one. So you have
581
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:08.960
Green Lantern in this film, you have Hawkgirl in this film.
582
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.360
You don't get.
583
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:15.679
Three acts of backstory for each one. They're just there
584
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.880
and it's not a big deal. That's very much how
585
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:26.119
super Friends operated. You'd turn on the TV and Superman
586
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:29.039
was flying around with Aquaman and Batman and Wonder Woman,
587
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:33.480
and nobody pause to ask, wait, how does this work.
588
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:41.719
It wasn't about plausibility. It was about possibility in that sense.
589
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:49.880
So James Gunn embraces that logic, that particular kind of logic,
590
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:57.199
a big, colorful world of superpowered beings operating on some
591
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:01.519
understood but unspoken rules, and he does it without irony.
592
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:07.239
That's the key. This isn't a meta, tongue in cheek
593
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.599
take on superheroes. It's not trying to be the Boys
594
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:13.480
or even Peacemaker and Peacemaker is a James Gunn show.
595
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:24.199
It's earnest. There's a sincerity here that almost feels a
596
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:28.480
little counter cultural to the superhero to the culture that
597
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:32.079
has grown up around the superhero movies that gun himself
598
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:36.840
helped to institute, especially in a genre that has become
599
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:41.599
has gotten so self conscious and self aware, and that
600
00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:46.639
sincerity is part of what makes the film feel almost
601
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:50.840
retro in the best sense, not in a visual design
602
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.719
sense necessarily, but in its clarity.
603
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:56.320
It's moral clarity.
604
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:03.960
The other piece of the Saturday Morning Cartoon comparison is
605
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:09.320
that the film embraces the idea of good versus evil
606
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:10.280
without apology.
607
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:12.639
It's it's not simplistic.
608
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:20.880
Lex Luthor, for example, was complex and philosophically challenging, but
609
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.079
it also isn't bogged out in ambiguity. Superman is good
610
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.880
not because he's perfect, but because he chooses to be.
611
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.800
And that kind of clarity is something that kids cartoons
612
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:31.719
used to lean into.
613
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:32.599
Apologetically.
614
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.639
Gun revives that but for an adult audience and with
615
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:41.920
a little more nuance. And I mentioned this a second ago.
616
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.119
I think what makes this especially notable is that James
617
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:49.119
Gunn is one of the people responsible for saturating the
618
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.360
superhero landscape. Guardians of the Galaxy, the Suicide Squad, Peacemaker.
619
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:59.239
Those projects are funny, they're chaotic, they're self aware. They
620
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:04.119
helped def find the era of the postmodern Quippi superhero.
621
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.159
So the fact that he is the one, and you know,
622
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.039
he's producer, writer, director of this film, I mean so
623
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:15.880
of all the big you know, creative decision makers, that's
624
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:19.159
all three in one. So the fact that he's the
625
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:24.800
one dialing back the tone and delivering something this sincere.
626
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.239
I think it's sort of meaningful. It feels like an
627
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:35.280
intentional counterpoint. Gun Superman isn't interested in trying to outdo Marvel,
628
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:42.079
It isn't interested in trying to outdo the DCEU previously.
629
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.079
It's not even trying to comment on the genre. It's
630
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:48.559
just trying to be a good superhero story. It's trying
631
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.159
to be a good Superman story. And that's that's what
632
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.840
makes it stand out at a time when so many
633
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:03.280
superhero films feel like they're either dragging themselves toward this
634
00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:09.880
you know, gritty deconstruction. We're desperately trying to juggle the
635
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:14.360
building blocks of what we're now calling a multiverse. Superman
636
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.239
just tells a story about a man who chooses to
637
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:22.639
be good and builds a world of superheroes around him
638
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:27.760
that makes space for his choice to matter. And so
639
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.800
in that sense, I would say that the Saturday Morning
640
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:39.280
cartoon energy isn't isn't nostalgia. It's as as far as
641
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:42.079
superhero movies go, it's a bit of a reset.
642
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:44.519
It sort of is.
643
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:48.079
Very happy to remind us what these stories used to
644
00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:52.360
be about and suggests that they can be that again.
645
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:58.159
That's really interesting that just in its uniqueness in that way,
646
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:03.239
I guess I would say, now we you know, you
647
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.840
started talking about just James Gun everything. He's He's the
648
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:10.440
person all rolled into one, writer, director, producer. Was there
649
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:13.440
any other kind of controversy in the making of this
650
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:17.800
film or bringing the studio to life? That wasn't you know,
651
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.639
kind of surrounding what's happening now with his studio and
652
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:25.079
DC reset and all that kind of thing. Uh?
653
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:29.480
Sure, Yeah, A Gun has he has a bit of,
654
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:38.679
let's call it, a complicated public PERSONA years ago, he
655
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:45.639
was temporarily fired from Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy over
656
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:56.320
some old tweets that resurfaced now now, these tweets were offensive,
657
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.159
and I would say they were clearly meant to be
658
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:07.360
seen as shock humor. At the time, he was affiliated
659
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:11.039
with a studio, if I remember this correctly, At the
660
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:13.039
time that he made those tweets, he was affiliated with
661
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.320
a studio that sort of specialized in that sort of
662
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:21.599
you know, shock offensiveness type thing. He you know, made
663
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:25.559
the necessary meacoulpas and was later reinstated and did the
664
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:27.119
uh the third.
665
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:28.400
Guardians of the Galaxy movie.
666
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:33.360
More recently, as he's taken the reins of DC Studios,
667
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:40.280
there there's been some pushback from online communities in particular.
668
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.599
I mean, everything's pushed back from online communities today, but uh,
669
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:49.519
and it's they're either they distrust his moral views, where
670
00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:51.880
they disliked the tone of his previous work. And you
671
00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.559
know what, I would say, not liking the tone of
672
00:47:54.559 --> 00:48:01.440
his previous work is fair. I enjoyed Superman. I have
673
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:06.880
never been the biggest admirer of James Gunn's work because
674
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.239
it is so meta, it is so self aware, it's
675
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:13.679
so ironic, and I always found that to be quite
676
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:17.400
eye roll inducing, right. I always sort of interpreted that,
677
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:20.880
and I usually interpret work like that to be a
678
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.800
And maybe this is me being a little harsh, but
679
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:27.719
this is just how I see it because we're so
680
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:29.920
saturated with it today. I see it as a very
681
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.639
lazy excuse to tell a good story.
682
00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:36.960
It's being accused of being preachy in this film. Would
683
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:41.960
you say that those accusations are correct or people are
684
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:43.440
missing the mark on what the film?
685
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:45.239
Well? I think that.
686
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:50.800
It's part of this conversation of his approach to tone
687
00:48:50.880 --> 00:49:01.719
and things like that. This film is its sere and
688
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.239
as a result of that, I don't think it's it's
689
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:07.280
it's a it's a light switch, is my point. I
690
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:09.920
don't think it's a one. Uh, it's one or the other.
691
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.280
It's a sincere film, but it's still James Gun making it.
692
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.639
There are still going to be traces of that quirky,
693
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:24.199
offbeat humor that that's in there. And one of the
694
00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:26.440
big things that has come out about this film and
695
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:28.360
and this is the whole you know, where they say
696
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:30.559
that this is a this might be a little preachy
697
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:35.559
with the political issues, is uh. Before the movie came out,
698
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:42.199
Gun made some comments to a reviewer about how you
699
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.079
know Superman is an immigrant and obviously that is a
700
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:49.599
very you know, controversial topic today. Now, I, for one,
701
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:54.000
for the life of me, could never I can't get
702
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:56.840
my mind around that statement being controversial because if you
703
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.039
know Superman's orgin story, it's it's like, yeah, okay, I
704
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:02.559
guess if you want to say it that way, sure,
705
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:07.440
that's that's exactly what happens. But of course, given the
706
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:11.239
current political climate in this country and the current issues
707
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:15.760
surrounding it, that that surges to the fore, and you know,
708
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:16.960
maybe guns should.
709
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:18.320
Have kept his mouth shut about it.
710
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.840
But suddenly this kicks off this fire storm online and
711
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.239
there are people who you know, previously played Superman who
712
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:26.280
were like, you know, I, why are we making this
713
00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:29.559
a political thing? And so on and so forth. And
714
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:33.639
and in the story there there is a in the
715
00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:37.480
story of the film, there is a I don't even
716
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:39.000
know if you want to call it the subplot, because
717
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.000
it's not really a subplot. It's it's it's kind of
718
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.639
it's part of the plot of the movie. Uh, there's
719
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:52.480
this one nation that is invading another and Superman, you know,
720
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:58.039
sort of goes flying in to stop this, and without
721
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.280
really thinking about the political fall or the ramifications of
722
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.159
that or anything of the sort now on a very
723
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:11.320
surface level. You know, if you were you can look
724
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:14.119
at that and go, oh, this is a very political movie,
725
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.800
and it's a very preachy movie, and it's very you know,
726
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:19.400
guns trying to make some type of political statement. Okay, Well,
727
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:23.480
by the time it's all over with, Lex Luthor has
728
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:25.480
has manufactured all of this stuff.
729
00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:28.400
This is all his doing. You know.
730
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:33.679
This is not some gritty documentary style film about well,
731
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:35.920
what would happen if there was a Superman who flew
732
00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:38.599
to Ukraine or who flew to Gauza or something like that.
733
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:47.039
It certainly draws from real world happenings, but it doesn't
734
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:50.519
necessarily I would I didn't watch the movie and go
735
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:53.719
I feel as though I am being preached at. If
736
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:58.360
there's anything that is preachy in the movie, it is
737
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:05.960
it is Superman desire for for for goodness for you
738
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:10.480
know it, no matter what's going on, you know, kind
739
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:12.960
of like this is his conversation with Lois the earlier
740
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.199
in the film. You know, at the end of the day,
741
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:18.159
people were going to die. You know, why did you
742
00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:21.199
fly over there and not think about you know, the ramifications?
743
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:23.079
Why did you do this? Did you check with you know,
744
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:24.920
the necessary powers that be.
745
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:25.760
Now, I just did it.
746
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:28.280
Why because people were going to die that kind of
747
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:33.440
self sacrifice. If that's what's preachy about the movie, so
748
00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:37.679
be it. I don't necessarily understand why someone would have
749
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:40.440
a problem with that, but I'm sure that there are
750
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:44.119
people who are, you know, looking very very deeply into
751
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:47.159
this sort of thing. And you know, because of Gun's
752
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.239
comments about it. You know, even other actors were being
753
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:55.159
asked about this at their premieres, other actors in the movie.
754
00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:58.559
And I, you know, think what you want of Nathan Fillion,
755
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:02.119
but I thought his response was fairly telling because he
756
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:03.719
was asked pretty directly about this, you know, what do
757
00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:05.840
you think about these comments and all of that stuff,
758
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:07.559
and he just sort of rolls his eyes and says,
759
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.320
it's a movie, guys, and keeps walking. And I think
760
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:15.320
that's probably how most people look at this, right. It's
761
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:19.920
just a movie. Yeah, it's got you know, a little
762
00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:22.039
bit of real world influence in there to flavor it,
763
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:25.400
to ground it in the here and now. But other
764
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.199
than that, I mean, you're talking about a movie with
765
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:30.960
people who wear very colorful costumes, fly around and fight
766
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:34.599
geniuses who orchestraate wars and also open you know, portals
767
00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:38.039
to pocket dimensions, and it's just you know, you have
768
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:43.239
to be very careful when trying to make this stuff
769
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:45.239
matter more than it does.
770
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:50.000
And also just I don't know if people know that much,
771
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:53.800
you know, if they're just thinking about historical context. When
772
00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:58.440
this character was invented, it was right during the time
773
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:01.199
leading up to World War Two, so they were already
774
00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:03.119
in you know that that could be part of the
775
00:54:03.159 --> 00:54:05.280
warp and woof of some of the things that have
776
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:09.039
been a part of this in the background. And I
777
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:10.800
don't know if any of the comic book writers are
778
00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:14.920
thinking about that in particular over over the almost one
779
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:20.960
hundred years. So, I mean, given that this superhero has
780
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.480
been around for a long time, do you think it's
781
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:30.199
endured because he has that goodness that was portrayed that
782
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:33.639
he is out there fighting crime for the people, et cetera.
783
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:37.199
And he's an average you know, he has this alter
784
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.960
ego personality that's this you know, salt of the Earth
785
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:43.280
guy that just is a newspaper reporter kind of thing.
786
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:46.559
Is that's what's been appealing over generations because it was
787
00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:49.639
a character invented in the late thirties, nineteen thirties.
788
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.960
Oh absolutely, that's that's a huge part of the appeal.
789
00:54:56.280 --> 00:55:02.119
It's worth it's. Having said all of that, I do
790
00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:10.199
want to say this, I can completely understand why conservative
791
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:16.519
audience members would be understandably skeptical. I was skeptical of
792
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.519
James Gunn doing Superman, especially given how caustic his other
793
00:55:20.599 --> 00:55:24.480
works can be. But having watched the film, I can
794
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:26.800
say Superman really does feel like a different animal. It's
795
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.079
not interested in snark or subversion.
796
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:33.159
It's much more family friendly than it is.
797
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:36.000
Gun And you know, and I'll just give him credit
798
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.679
where credits due. Gun seems to be writing here not
799
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.400
as a provocator, and he all of his other work,
800
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:44.320
even in some ways Guardians of the Galaxy, it's very provocative,
801
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:50.920
But this this does feel as like someone who genuinely
802
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.760
admires this character and wants others to admire him to so,
803
00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:58.079
you know, credit where it's due. That's That's sort of
804
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:00.800
the last I'll say about that. But as far as
805
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:06.639
why the character endures, yeah, I mean, like you said,
806
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:09.800
part of the warp and woof of these Superman stories
807
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:14.880
from its inception has been that he's he grows alongside
808
00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:17.280
the modern world I mean, this is this is just
809
00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:22.039
comic books in general, and you know, this has created
810
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:27.800
problems for comic book writers even where you know, it's
811
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.039
fair to ask the question, why is it that after
812
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:34.320
you know, eighty years Superman still looks like a thirty
813
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:37.400
five year old dude? Does he not age? Why does
814
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.159
Batman not age? That sort of a thing? And that
815
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:42.719
has led to you know, DC, you know, trying to
816
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:45.960
explain it as multiverses and all that sort of stuff,
817
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:48.199
and the crisis events and all of that stuff.
818
00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:51.000
But all of that is.
819
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:56.599
Done in service to the fact that these characters have
820
00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:03.920
grown and evolved throughout history. They have grown alongside the times.
821
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:08.800
It's very it's very like James Bond in the cinema landscape,
822
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:13.480
where you know, every Bond film is set in the
823
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:17.840
time that it's made. When Roger Moore takes over for
824
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:21.280
Sean Connery, it's not a reboot, it's not a relaunch,
825
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:25.599
it's not a reset, it's just the new Bond. And
826
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:28.280
comic books are very very much sort of the same
827
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:31.559
way when new creative team comes on, and you know,
828
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.840
continuity is is a very it's something that we've only
829
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:39.599
recently become obsessed with cannon and continuity, making all the
830
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:43.239
little pieces fit together. I actually think that stuff. While
831
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:46.400
it's interesting in theory, I think it ties the hands
832
00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:49.599
of people creatively. It makes it very difficult for a
833
00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.719
new creative team to come onto a legacy character when
834
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.559
you have to saddle them with eighty years worth of
835
00:57:56.679 --> 00:58:01.000
history that they may not care about the great storyteller
836
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:02.000
with good ideas.
837
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:04.079
Do you think that's only because of the rise of
838
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:06.960
the Internet. In other words, before you would have had
839
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.320
these forms where fans would unmatter and go into the
840
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:15.960
comments section and start comment bombing a film's trailer or
841
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:19.039
any kind of press that's been done about it. There
842
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:23.360
was nothing to have that before, where it's this appeasement
843
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:28.440
of every single you know, fan podcast out there with
844
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:29.519
each reach, etc.
845
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:35.280
Yep, you're exactly right. The rise of the Internet and
846
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:40.679
has has changed the landscape. And I would say this
847
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:43.599
doesn't just apply to comic books. It applies to any
848
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:48.280
entertainment medium, film or anything like that. Any type of
849
00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:52.679
what is today called IP intellectual property. You know that'd
850
00:58:52.719 --> 00:58:56.559
be Superman, Batman, anything like that. Any type of IP
851
00:58:56.840 --> 00:59:01.079
today comes with a built in audience. That's that's why
852
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.599
these stories keep getting remade because they're safe bets. It's
853
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:06.840
not a new thing where you have to go find
854
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:08.760
an audience for this character. You have to go find
855
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:11.320
an audience for this story. You make a Superman movie,
856
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.000
people are going to turn up. Even if it flops
857
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:16.280
and gets horrible reviews, You're still going to make a
858
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:18.320
lot of money at it because people know who Superman
859
00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:20.119
is and they want to go see a new Superman movie.
860
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.199
That being said, there is a much greater pressure now
861
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:29.960
on creatives to appease many people. I think you can
862
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:36.119
actually see this in the the I want to be
863
00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:38.920
careful how I characterize this, because Ryan Johnson just just
864
00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:41.880
gave an interview where you talked about this quite a bit.
865
00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:50.239
You can sort of see the the desire to appease
866
00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.960
different parts of a broad fan base. With the recent
867
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:59.440
Star Wars films, which many people have criticized and you know,
868
00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:01.440
whether or not it's fair not, it's a different story,
869
01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:04.559
but many people have criticized as being very hirky jerky
870
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:06.679
and wishy washy in what it set out to do,
871
01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:09.679
and a lot of people attribute that to, you know,
872
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:14.039
fan backlash, that sort of a think, and so there
873
01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:18.639
is that pressure on creatives to do this. But as
874
01:00:18.679 --> 01:00:23.199
for why Superman in particular endures beyond all of that,
875
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:27.159
to your point, it's not that he's just relatable, but
876
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:32.400
he's also something aspirational. We sort of live in a
877
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.280
time that likes to flatten our heroes into reflections of
878
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:41.000
our flaws, because we think that makes them relatable. If
879
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:46.800
you give us a flawed hero, we are supposed to
880
01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:50.760
find that relatable and therefore like him more. And so
881
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:55.599
in this time that flattens our heroes, Superman still points upward.
882
01:00:56.639 --> 01:01:02.719
He doesn't mirror our brokenness back to us. Instead, he
883
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:08.480
gives us a picture of of what we might become
884
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:12.679
if we learn to use you know, strength with mercy.
885
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:17.239
That idea never really goes out of style. And this
886
01:01:17.320 --> 01:01:21.000
is actually that that I that concept is worth pointing out.
887
01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:25.960
I remember, I'm we've talked before. I'm a very big
888
01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.239
James Bond fan. And in many ways, you know, Bond
889
01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:32.039
was sort of my my childhood heuro type thing for
890
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:35.639
better for worse. But I grew up on on the
891
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:39.800
Bond films and comic books like this. But but Bond
892
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:45.000
was sort of the cinematic shadow if you will. Uh
893
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:49.800
and Barbara Brockley, who used to be the person who
894
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:54.440
ran the Bond movies alongside Michael Wilson. She once said
895
01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:57.440
she was asked about Bond's appeal, and she once said
896
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.360
an interview, heroism will never go out of style. That
897
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.480
is why Bond will never go away. There will always
898
01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:04.840
be a new Bond. There will always be a new
899
01:02:04.840 --> 01:02:06.840
Bond movie. Even when it looks like there's a lull
900
01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:10.480
or whatever, Bond will always come back. And her response
901
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:12.599
or justification of that is because Bond is a hero,
902
01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:17.760
and heroism never goes out of style. That's that's sort
903
01:02:17.800 --> 01:02:22.239
of I think can be applied to Superman. Uh, that idea,
904
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:26.199
the hero never really goes out of style, even if
905
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:31.920
it feels countercultural now maybe especially because it does, people
906
01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:36.079
still want to believe that goodness can be strong, that
907
01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:38.760
power can be restrained. I mean, you don't They even
908
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:43.119
say in the movie that, you know, maybe even maybe today,
909
01:02:43.599 --> 01:02:45.519
if you really want to be you know, quote unquote
910
01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:47.519
punk rock. It's treated as a sort of a little
911
01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:50.559
gag in the movie, this punk rock idea, but you know,
912
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:56.360
be kindness. Kindness is real punk rock and that that
913
01:02:56.360 --> 01:02:59.719
that can sound so sentimental, but it's delivered in the
914
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:03.119
film in not a very sentimental way. That's what makes
915
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:05.920
this kind of story difficult to tell, and that's what makes,
916
01:03:06.199 --> 01:03:09.599
you know, a Superman's story difficult to tell. People are
917
01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:12.440
always complaining. I mean, I feel like all of my
918
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:16.199
comic book friends are always complaining that no one can
919
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:19.679
tell a Superman story. Superman just isn't compelling, He's not
920
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:23.280
that interesting. Well, I don't know that he's not interesting.
921
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.760
I just think it's difficult to tell a Superman story
922
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:30.599
well because the subject matter of this of goodness makes
923
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:34.800
it so easy to slip into sentimentality and what you
924
01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:37.920
really have to do and I think there's you know,
925
01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:41.440
there are serious theological connections to this. What you really
926
01:03:41.480 --> 01:03:47.119
have to do is make goodness appealing and not sentimental.
927
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:52.119
Goodness really is the harder choice to wake up in
928
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:58.159
the morning and to not give in to that cynical
929
01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:01.840
part of you, if you to put it in theological terms,
930
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:05.239
to get up in the morning and think about someone
931
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:10.519
else other than yourself is actually the more difficult thing
932
01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:10.880
to do.
933
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:13.800
But that's not what our culture is doing. I mean
934
01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:17.519
our culture. I'll point everybody back to, especially Star Wars fan,
935
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:20.880
since he mentioned Star Wars and Ryan Johnson. I'm going
936
01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:25.239
to point everyone back to the review that Cole did
937
01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:27.840
recently on the and Ors series. It's like it's got
938
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:33.000
so many just accolades for its greediness, for the grind
939
01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:36.639
of just trying to be against the Empire. But what
940
01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:41.280
it was trying to do is recast the good and
941
01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:46.039
evil story that from nineteen seventy seven into something else
942
01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:48.920
that Star Wars hasn't been. And so, like you're saying,
943
01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:52.119
we're kind of far fling, and so people are like, well,
944
01:04:52.159 --> 01:04:56.000
where's the gritty, kind of you know, angst of Superman
945
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:58.440
that's culturally relevant.
946
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:04.519
Exactly, and and this film it just embraces something very different.
947
01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:07.039
And you know, I will be the first one to
948
01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:10.880
stand up and say that I was. I really was
949
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:13.840
impressed with what Gun was able to do with this material.
950
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:14.400
I was.
951
01:05:14.679 --> 01:05:17.039
I was one of the naysayers when I heard that
952
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:20.639
he took took over d C Studios, because I you know,
953
01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:23.400
I'm maybe a little biased here as far as the
954
01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:26.519
comic books go. I've always been far more of a
955
01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:28.519
DC guy than a Marvel guy. I've read d C
956
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:32.360
comics for years I have. You know, this is telling
957
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:35.280
on myself, but I actually have a subscription at a
958
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:37.840
brick and mortar comic book shop. Yes, I'm a I'm
959
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:41.960
a nerd and d C d C. Those those titles
960
01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:44.679
are what I pull. And when I heard that Gun
961
01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:48.280
had taken over DC Studios, I thought, you know, this
962
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:51.119
is a this is a really terrible decision. I think
963
01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:55.360
his movies are very vulgar. I think they're very caustic.
964
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.559
I don't think he's the right pick, especially not for Superman,
965
01:05:59.239 --> 01:06:02.480
and very happy to have seen the film and see
966
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:05.679
the restraint that he put into that. So yeah, I
967
01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:08.039
think you're right. People still want to believe that goodness
968
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:12.400
can be strong, that power can be restrained. That's and
969
01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:13.840
this is, I think, is what it comes down to.
970
01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:18.320
That someone might show up simply because it's the right
971
01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:23.679
thing to do. And that's why I think Superman lasts
972
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:29.800
and ultimately why we still need a character like Superman.
973
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:32.719
It's why we still need heroes. I think Barbara Brockley
974
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:34.840
is very right about that, it's something that never goes
975
01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:35.519
out of fashion.
976
01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:38.880
Well, there's a lot there for the Christian apologists to
977
01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:42.840
think about, especially the themes in this in this film.
978
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:47.199
Although I do sense that especially in the first Guardians
979
01:06:47.199 --> 01:06:51.000
of the Galaxy film. Some of the more poignant parts
980
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:53.880
of that just in moments of that film made its
981
01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:57.960
way into this film more fully fledged, I think, especially
982
01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:00.719
when you're thinking about you know, origin and parents and
983
01:07:00.760 --> 01:07:03.960
things like that. But on a lighter note, I wanted
984
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:07.639
to ask Cole, of all the various different incarnations of
985
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:11.480
Superman on film, what are the films that you could
986
01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:13.719
recommend or would you say skip all of them and
987
01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:14.599
start with this one.
988
01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:18.880
That's a good question, I would say very quickly, I
989
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:20.800
would say this is a good film to start with
990
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:26.280
if you've never encountered Superman. Before that being said, I
991
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:32.480
have great affinity for the nineteen seventy eight superhero film
992
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:36.400
just called Superman, the movie which was directed by Richard
993
01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:41.599
Donner and stars Christopher Reeve as Superman. If you've never
994
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:45.159
seen that film, because it was such an important film
995
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:49.039
in terms of movie history. If you have never seen
996
01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:52.920
the nineteen seventy eight Superman, I would say that's definitely
997
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:54.679
one to check out. You could check out that one
998
01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:56.159
and then of course this one.
999
01:07:56.719 --> 01:07:58.800
Well. Thanks Cole for being a guest again on the
1000
01:07:58.840 --> 01:08:00.639
Postmodern Realities podcast.
1001
01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:02.360
Always a pleasure.
1002
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:06.360
Thank you you've been listening to episode four hundred and
1003
01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:12.039
fifty five of the Postmodern Realities podcast. Today's guest was
1004
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:16.439
Colbergett and we were talking about the new film Superman.
1005
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:19.920
Cole has written a film review for the Christian Research Journal.
1006
01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:24.840
His review is called Up, Up and Away Again, a
1007
01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:28.079
Review of Superman, and you can read it for free
1008
01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:32.039
without a paywall at equipped dot org. You won't want
1009
01:08:32.079 --> 01:08:35.039
to miss out on subscribing to the other podcasts from
1010
01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:40.159
the Christian Research Institute. We have the Bible answer Man podcast,
1011
01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:43.880
which is published Monday through Friday, with the best of
1012
01:08:43.880 --> 01:08:47.319
the week on Saturday. It's hosted by CRI president Hank
1013
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:50.960
Handagraph and is available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
1014
01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:55.960
In addition, Hank has a podcast called Hank Unplugged. Hank
1015
01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:58.760
takes you out of the studio and into his study
1016
01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:03.079
to engage in free flowing, essential Christian conversations on critical
1017
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:07.920
issues with some of the most interesting, informative and inspirational
1018
01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:11.319
people on the planet. And you won't want to miss
1019
01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:15.720
out on the brand new podcast from the Christian Research Journal.
1020
01:09:16.279 --> 01:09:21.000
Christian Research Journal Reads presents audio versions of Christian Research
1021
01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:24.920
Journal articles. It was a print incarnation of almost forty
1022
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:27.119
five years. It's now on the web as you know,
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01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:30.960
with new articles every single week, so you won't want
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to miss these audio articles of some of our most
1025
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:39.239
popular and most accessed articles on our website equip dot org.