Pleasers & Punishers Podcast: You seem uncomfortable. Do it make you nervous? Gorky, corky, girky. No, no, no. There's Curious maybe. That's funny. I'm feeling a little bit curious myself. Mind is a labyrinth, ladies and ladies, a podcast. And while the paths of the brain are plainly visible, its ways deceptively apparent, its destinations are unknown, its secrets still secret. And if we are honest, it is the lure of the labyrinth that draws us to our chosen field to unlock those secrets. Others have been here before us and have left us signs, but we, as explorers of the mind, have Must devote our lives and energies to going further, to tread the unknown corridors in order to find ultimately the final solution. Yikes. We have to see. We have to know. Welcome to Pleasers and Punishers. Where we talk about movies that people love to watch. Movies that ruin your today, tomorrow, and yesterday. And all things kinky and queer. I'm Caitlin of the North. I'm May. I can do that. I'm a doctor. Schultz. And I'm Amanda Jane Stern, and I'd maybe just maybe let An Uncle Frank punish me. And today we're discussing what to give the person who has everything. Is it a skin suit or a giant flying hell penis with half a channard head? Channard head! ⁓ my god, with half a channel head. Welcome to HEA! Well Racer Month, or as I named it because I there's something wrong with me, Julia, Joey, John, and Jamie June. We are not starting off with Hellraiser. We're actually starting with Hellbound, Hellraiser 2, directed by Tony Randall, written by Peter Atkins, story by Clive Barker, starring Ashley Lawrence, Claire Higgins, Kenneth Cranham, Imogen Borman, Barbie Wilde. Now I'm getting into our setups. Barbie Wilde, Nicholas Vince, Simon Banford, and of course Doug fucking Bradley. And with music by Christian, Christopher Young. Christian? Christian. He's Christian. ⁓ He is a Christian. But wait, a fourth member of our kinky crew has appeared. It's Cult Legend, Drag Queen, MC, filmmaker, and host of the Midnight Mass podcast, Peaches Christ. Hello. Welcome, Peaches. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So my opening question, what's your favorite shade of lipstick? ⁓ I go back and forth. Obviously, I'm always in the market for a deep, dark, jet black. But there is this MAC color called cyber that's sort of a purplish almost black that I like a lot too. Excellent. Caitlin Amanda. I like an Orangy red is what I'm going to say. I can do an orange because I've never been out in the sun in my life and I have green eyes. So I look very good in an orange. I don't remember what the color exactly is called, but on that side of the spectrum. I can also rock an orangey red or anything kind of peachy. Because I too am pale as fuck. There is a NYX lingerie XXL color that's kind of like a dark red almost a burgundy. I cannot remember the name of the shade. I have it in my makeup bag in the bathroom. I probably should have grabbed it, but that one is my favorite. It looks great on me and I tend to wear a lot a lot of like reds, pinks, purples, so it goes with pretty much everything. Do you do the thing that I do where you start naming shades of lipstick your own names and then it doesn't really matter what color, you know, you kinda go, Okay, that's a good that's a good fuck me red. I need that fuck me red. So I have like five different brands of a fuck me red, but I don't know what they're really called. Yeah, I have no idea what it's really called. I'll be like, This is like wet brick, you know, like when you're in New York City and you see a building that's wet. It's a red it's a wet brick. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. My mine I basically think of as I'm gonna leave this all over your cooch red. Because that's what's gonna happen. Whoa. We have talked about this happening, haven't we? Yep. Yeah. There was one time I was wearing a Maybelline like blue lipstick and I left blue mouth prints all over my partner at the time, like on her tits, on her crotch, on her ass. They were everywhere. When you're filming kissing scenes and you're wearing lipstick, that is in between scenes. That is something you really need ⁓ your makeup artist on hand to fix. Or if you're just making out with people like karaoke and one of your friends who cares. What happened there and go, that's Caitlin's lipstick all over. Don't worry about it. It drives me nuts, and it even exists in my own movie where you Can tell that they did not totally remove all of the color around someone's lip before doing the second or third take of a makeout scene. Wait, was that in All About Evil? Yes, it was. And there's there's a scene where Natasha has to make out with Jack Donner, who's the old man who's the projectionist. And it there are some Shots before she starts making out with him where I can tell we're on take two or three, and it drives me nuts, not just in my movie, but in any movie. You know. We we have a moment in my movie as well where I can tell that this was definitely a take, I don't know, of this makeup scene, but we were wet. ⁓ right, yeah. So it was really hard to fix the makeup between those takes. You're supposed to start dry and get wet. I'm supposed to start dry, yes. Yeah. well speaking of getting wet, let's get into some role play. Is that your bathing suit? Is that your overbite? Now one of you will be the drowning victim, and the other one gets to be our lifesaver. I'll be the victim all your life. This is a wet movie. This is a wet movie. Previously on Hellraiser. After her uncle Frank and stepmother Julia murdered her father Larry and then were themselves killed, Kirsty Cotton defeated the Ctenobites using the Lament Configuration Puzzle Box. Okay, I have an immediate story to tell with this. So I was down at Portland at a strip club, and one of the dancers had a tattooed like right under her butt. Jesus wept. ⁓ boy. And me just being The good Christian that I am. Uh-huh, yes, so Christian. I went, ⁓ that's awesome! It's a Hellraiser reference. Not knowing at all that this was in the Bibley. I was told that this might also be a very ⁓ common thing for erotic dancers to have tattooed on themselves. Really? Interesting. Why? I I mean for Satan, I guess. Well, I don't want to get too, you know, distall the flow here, but I also think since you brought up Jesus Wept, it should be noted it's on record that that was not the line in the script and the actor improved. Yeah, Andrew Robinson decided to do that because originally he was supposed to say fuck you. Yeah. Which is like ⁓ you know, unl unless you are RJ McCready in the thing, saying, Yeah, well fuck you too when you blow up the thing. Doesn't doesn't quite work. I I think Jesus Wept is much better. Yeah, I mean 'cause the whole film is like such a a a wonderful tableau of sacrilege, but that really And it's called Hellraiser, right? So it's like what a a thank God. You know. Clive Parker's brilliant, but even geniuses need help sometimes, you know? It was just the moment Brian turned to me and was like, That's in the Bible and I was like, Sure. Caitlin. It's one of the more popular lines. You're right. Love his work. In the nineteen twenties in India during the British occupation, military officer Elliot Spencer opens the puzzle box and is subsequently transformed into the Hell Priest, who I refuse to call Pinhead because I have standards. Kirsty Kirsty awakens in the Chinnard Institute, a psychiatric hospital, where Detective Ronson has some questions about the story Steve told before he was sent home. And a cop investigates the house where everything went down. Real quick, one of my favorite decisions this movie makes is ⁓ yeah, Steve went home hours ago. We're never gonna see him again. I'm on record as saying Steve is a lamp. Completely pointless in that first movie. I also like the that the the new guy that they set up who's as to maybe be a a love interest for Kyle. They just kill him. Kill him quick. Kyle. The Steve and Kyle. Mm-hmm. He's kinda killed in a way that's surprising, like it's so fast. Yeah. Yeah, he's disposed of real quick. Mm-hmm. Kirsty begs Ronson and then Dr. Channard and his underling Kyle to destroy the mattress on which Julia died because it is drenched in Julia's blood. Naturally, Channard has it brought to his home. Naturally. That evening, Kyle tells Kirsty about Tiffany, a nonverbal patient who loves doing puzzles. And then Kirsty has a vision of her skinless father writing, I am in hell, help me on the wall in blood. And this was the inspiration for the Nine Inch Nails song Help Me, I Am In Hell. In the morning, she relays the entire tale of the first film to both doctors. And we get really well again. Yeah, I I like that we get like Another previously on montage. Every single Friday the thirteenth movie starts with previously on. Yep. Yep. Because they knew people weren't going to see the previous ones and they couldn't just watch them at home until the home video market exploded. Life Barker has so many things to say about Friday the thirteenth. He does. He has so much to say about Hellraiser 9. Channard brings home a schizophrenic patient who ⁓ sees bugs all over his body and crawling out of his body, and allows him to slash himself up all over the mattress until a skinless Julia emerges and consumes him in order to begin reconstituting herself. Kyle, who is there investigating, witnesses all of this from behind a curtain. So this actor is the one who plays skinless Frank in both Hellraiser and this movie. Mm-hmm. He's also the skinless body who writes I Am in Hell helps. Yes. Kyle? Really? No, no, no. The Mr. Brown. ⁓ okay. Apparently also ⁓ Clive Barker, who was very involved, even though he did not write and direct this movie, apparently wanted him to cut his penis off in this scene. ⁓ and then we could have put it in Yeah, I know. He tried to do and I guess it did not come out well. So Include the penis flame in this movie. This scene is extremely visceral for me, as you know, someone who used to self-harm a lot. And the first time I watched this movie, it really fucked me up to watch this guy do this. Anyway. I was gonna say, as a someone who loves makeup and like practical effects, I'm like, ⁓ yeah, slash it, bitch. Yeah. It's very well. I love how how bloody these movies are. ⁓ it's yeah, this one, the gore level is so fabulous. And I am blown away by I never knew that the guy who is picking all you know, slicing himself up was also the i in the skinless suits. That's so cool. Great trivia. I'm really yeah, I'm not good with trivia, but I love learning about it. So ⁓ Yeah, bring it on. And also I love that moment. I love this movie for a lot of reasons. I absolutely should say I love, love, love this movie. But there are certain things that are just so iconic and we get hit with that I am in hell help me shot at the beginning. ⁓ my god, chills. Julia Rebirth, amazing. The fact that Kyle is behind the curtain is so great. It's so Hitchcock, you know. Anyway. After getting fresh and sharing a bloody kiss, Channard acquiesces to Julia's request to bring her victims on which to feed. After eight of them, she finally has skin. How she needs that new flesh. This is all in one day. She needs the new flesh. And an entirely new hair color. Yes. But this is in a day. Like flawless. She looks flawless. ⁓ so flawless. She comes out looking like she went to the salon. Almost like Veronica Lake, except hairs on both sides. Like she's like a forties Hollywood or something. Yeah, Bempfitale. Yes, exactly. Kyle, who now knows everything she said is true, comes to Kirsty to break her out of the facility. At Shenard's house, Kirsty discovers the Hellpriest's true identity, and Julia feeds on Kyle. I'm no longer just the wicked stepmother. I'm the evil queen. Julia says to Kirsty before slapping her once into unconsciousness. Queen of hell. Hey, she's got superhuman strength now. Yeah, that's probably true. Tiffany is tasked with unlocking the Lament configuration, and the Cenobites enter Channard's office. It is not hands that call us, it is desire, declares the hell priest, knowing that it wasn't Tiffany who truly summoned them. I love when I get to do voices. Julia leads Channard on a guided tour of hell. Christy searches for her daddy, and Tiffany's creepy carnival version of hell shows us that Channard killed her mother in order to take her for her puzzling skills. This creepy carnival I hate it. I hate it. Well I know you hate it. I was like, ⁓ look at the clowns. The guy juggling his own eyeballs with like Kind of clown makeup on. I feel like I've had that nightmare specifically. That does not surprise me. Christy comes face to face with the Cenobites once again, and the whole gang is here. The Hell Priest, Butterball, the Chatterer, and even female Cenobite. Butterball. Female. So other fun trivia is. The actor who plays the Chatterer and the actor who plays Butterball are the movers from the first Hellraiser, one of whom is the mover again at the end of this film. And and the other mover at the end of the film looks like George Lucas. I know the Chatterer specifically one, he got yes, very ⁓ hurt on this movie or almost had his brain pierced. But also, ⁓ they Wanted to make it so he could see and it well no, he was like, Could I please see in my mask? Mm-hmm. So they gave him eyeballs. Well, and there was originally supposed to be a scene where that happens. Slicing up eyeballs. ⁓ yes. Thank you, Frank Black. Girl, you're so groovy. So wait, are all the Cinnabites besides Doug Bradley different in the second one? No. Simon is in both, right? Yeah. One of them was supposed to be the actual primary one and not not Doug Bradley, but he became the is it the female Cinnabite in the Hellbound Heart is the one who has more of the dialogue. Yay. Yes. And that changed because Doug Bradley's Hell Priest look is so iconic that they decided to give him more of the lines. Obviously Peaches you've you've done a Hell Priest look. Caitlin has done a Hell Priest look that won them a fucking costume contest, which I'm never gonna shut up about. ⁓ my god, send me the pictures. Yeah, it's it's astounding. Like I so I can't wait. Caitlin and I started out kind of flirting with each other when we first became friends, and when they sent me those pictures of their look, I was just like, ⁓ I'm in love. You're like, I have a Lament configuration tramp snap. I was like, I do. Hold my beer. I'm ready to take on another Peaches version and I'm wondering what which of the three centibytes because I have to limit it to the first four from the first two. Obviously. Yeah. Would you Well yeah, don't do a centibyte from the fifth one because they're just women with tights on their fucking heads. Exactly. We should do Angelique. From bloodline. I think that would be incredible. ⁓ yes. I love that. Yes. I I was thinking okay. I'm a challenge accepted. I was thinking I was thinking the chatterer as peaches with eye makeup that went well. Yeah, that is stying. You know what I mean? Like so good. I was going to be on the chatter side too. So you know what? And I refuse to do butterball. Yes. No one do butterball. I just I wouldn't have to wear any makeup or anything. I live as butterball. So okay, I was crying into my pizza before we got on. ⁓ Watched a b watched an episode of Bob's Burgers that just like hit me a little too hard and I was like Blubber ball. Yeah. Yes. What's up ball. But Christy escapes and runs into Tiffany. That w that was sorry. There was a long there was a long segue there. Yeah. I was like, who? What are we talking about? Julia brings Channard to witness the glory of the Leviathan, Lord of the Labyrinth, and he is taken by a chamber that turns him into a cenobite. Christy goes through the door of her house and enters a chamber filled with bloody moaning maidens. So when we witness the glory of Leviathan, this is when Christopher Young, who did the score, decided to make the Morse code for God? Yeah, the low horn sound that it emits is spelling God in Morse code. And I really love it because on the commentaries, PITA. And Tony are just I think it's Tony going like, Yeah, apparently this is God in Morse Code, and he's like, Why? Because the characters think they're God. He felt the need to even it out, maybe, because we're doing a lot of things in hell, and he's a Christian, and that is why I said Christian Christopher Young. Got it. It all comes together at the end. That is awesome. We all come together. At the end. I do know that Christopher Young is very proud of his score work for these movies. Which should I mean absolutely 100%? I've got I've got ⁓ on vinyl. Yeah, no, they're incredible. ⁓ yeah, I should have brought I have the Lament configuration like box set of the score for the first movie. I should have brought that in here. I have just a little prop of the Lamont configuration on my windowsill at home. I have a keychain. ⁓ And and as previously mentioned, I have a tramp stamp. Yep. But there's no sign of Larry, only Uncle Frank, who tricked her into coming here. So Kirsty sets the room on fire and Frank loses all of his skin again. Julia arrives with Tiffany in toe and rips out Frank's heart as revenge for betraying her, allowing Tiffany and Kirsty to escape. I love that she is really fulfilling her fairy tale evil queen moniker here. Absolutely delicious. Yes. Julia's flesh is sucked into a vortex, leaving only her skin behind, along with the Leviathan configuration of the puzzle box. Kirsty and Tiffany find themselves back in the institute, but Hell has followed them. Everything that like is skinless, ⁓ my god. So good. So beautiful. Just impeccable makeup work. And prosthetics. ⁓ it's amazing. ⁓ shit. Channard emerges, blue, bloody, and somehow more evil than before, suspended from a giant penis and butchers all of the patients who are playing with puzzle boxes. Kirsty tells the hell pe Kirsty tells the hell the hell penis, yes The Hell penis. I heard that. Let's go in the blooper reel. Kirsty tells the hell priest his true identity and convinces the rest of the gang they were once human too. A battle ensues between Chinard and the other Cenobites, who each revert to their human forms as they die. Tiffany and Kirsty reenter the labyrinth to retrieve the puzzle box, and Channard prepares to eviscerate Tiffany. Kirsty reappears wearing Julia's skin and gives Chinnard a big old kiss, allowing Tiffany time to solve the box. The top of Channard's head, like middle of his jaw, is ripped off by its giant dick hat. And Kirsty saves Tiffany from falling into the abyss. They escape back into the institute just before the doorway shuts, then walk out together looking cunty. At Channard's house, one of the same movers from the first film, as I mentioned before, gets pulled halfway into the mattress, and the pillar of pain rises up. What's your pleasure, sir? And that's hellbound Hellraiser too. So Tell me, and Peaches will have you go first. If you were a Cenobite, what would your characteristics and name be? Well, I was thinking about that since you since I knew the question was coming, and really I mean, so are you talking about a name? I I thought of it more as a name that the fans would give them rather than would be in the novel, right? So like as we all dis determined, like what Barker did not write a novel about Butterball. That's a name that was, you know, created by fans to understand these characters. And in fact, I I it always drove me nuts because as a dorky young fan who saw the first Hellraiser in the cinema because I snuck in and saw it, and it traumatized me ⁓ in the best way possible. I always thought he should be called nail head, not penhead. Didn't mean they were nails, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I was thinking about it and I was like, Yeah, I was thinking of course I'd want lots of leather and all the all the accoutrements of flesh and stuff, but my pain would be like really crazy metallic, intricate crown of thorns that would be smashed into my head. You know, and the crown of thorns would happen and then I would get spikes, you know, it basically I ran with the whole Christ thing of a crucifixion. So I would have to be crucified in hell and be the hell version of a crucifixion. And then, you know, be leather and dominatrix. And I was thinking, you know, my my whip would be, you know, like a cat of nine tails. And, you know, I i but it could extend, you know, like with long chains that reached out. I love this so much. Yeah, but I I was like, I don't know what my my name would be, but then I was like, ⁓ maybe I'm just Christ, you know, or like I I didn't I didn't really come up with a good name. ⁓ my God. Anti Christ. Yes, Antichrist. There you go. Yes. Wow. It was hard for me to s because I say aunt, not aunt. So it was hard for me to say that. But yeah, antichrist. You gotta say it that way. I know, and I am an antichrist to a few drag queens out there. Cause you in the drag world we have drag children. Right. But I am an antichrist a as well as being a drag mother, and ⁓ I'm an antichrist to Most famously a drag queen in the UK called Cheddar Gorgeous because she has a drag mother and I'm sort of her s her original drag mother, but I wasn't able to be in the UK and nurture her, so we decided I would be her aunt. That's so sweet. Okay. I would I don't know, I I mean mm I got huge tits. They would be featured heavily. I'm sure the fans would just call me Tits McGee. Three of us. Yeah I guess. All three of us have massive tits. Yeah. That's true. Okay, fine. We can be the titty trinity. ⁓ my god. Yes. Trinity. Trinity. Trinity Yeah, Trinity. There you go. Ha ha Love it. Okay. Put something in my mouth. So I'm just like ⁓ mouth open. I just have metal between my upper and lower jaw, so my mouth is just open the whole time. So so you're like a kid with braces, basically. Or headgear. ⁓ Okay. Well, Beaches, what was your first experience with this movie? Did you see this in its initial theatrical run? I did. So, like I said, the I the first one, the first Hellraiser, I snuck into a Cinema to see it. I was probably I don't know. Do you remember? Does anyone know offhand what year that first one came out? 87. So I was 13. The reason I snuck in is because I remember being at a friend's house and the parents came home from having gone to the movies, and the mother was traumatized because the husband had wanted to see Hellraiser. And her reaction to that movie, she was like going around, she was trying to pray, she was holding like crucifix like you know, crosses to her, and I was like. As a kid, I was like, I have to see that fucking movie. I I have to see it no matter what. So I went and saw the first one. By the time the second one came out, I think it was just easier for me to just I wasn't even sneaking in. So I saw it in the theater. And then I saw it a bunch more times in the theater. And then I I got the VHS video store to give me the poster. And I had both posters in my bedroom. And as a Catholic school kid who's since built a career on sacrilege, right? Like becoming Peaches Christ, becoming the the hostess of Midnight Mass and doing shows like idol worship, it's like you can't really underestimate the power of the movies Hellraiser and Hellbound and what they what how they infected my mind. So much so that when I rewatched them, like Julia's skinless moment where her skin is in a pile, I totally recreated that scene for my Terror Vault show without realizing it until I rewatched it for this podcast where I was like, ⁓ that scene I did two years ago, that's that. That's exactly that. So it's so buried in my, you know, my brain. So I can't say enough about how much I love this movie. And like you nerds, I listen to the soundtrack and you know, I just really, really loved it. And I feel like the first movie for me is an intimate, cozy movie, and I think of it as a haunted house movie. Yes. Yes. A horny haunted house movie. A horny haunted house movie. And the second movie I think of as a haunted attraction movie. Meaning it feels like you're going through a big haunt maze, you know, and a and you're really, you know, experiencing more of a haunted world than a house. So I love both. I love how you brought up the feminist elements of of the first movie and this one too, because I think it's a huge fucking part. Yeah, and it's it's one of the biggest reasons that I hate number five and have a lifelong grudge against Scott Derrickson for comments that he made about the Hellraiser universe. He made some comments about how everything that needed to be said had already been said, and then instead what he gave us was some like bullshit neo noir with the most boring white boy, basic Christian black and white, yes, black and white morality. About boo sex work, basically. Trash. Absolute trash. And the centibyte design in it is women with mesh tights over their heads. Yeah. So no. That's I have a grudge. ⁓ well, what about you, Caitlin? What was your first experience with this one? I don't even remember at this point. ⁓ I feel like I I watched this not long after I saw the first movie, which was like a ⁓ Couple decades ago, certainly. But when I was doing my costume, I went through and I watched everything again, or at least up to four again. Well you mean unlike me, you haven't seen every single one. I have not. I have not seen every single one. I will I've never seen the ones without Doug Bradley other than twenty twenty two. I don't recommend most of those. Yeah. I I am gonna re watch all the direct to video Doug Bradley ones at some point though, because I've only seen all of them once. It's fine, you can do that. How did I support you in that decision that you're going to be making? Nine is the one where he was like, fuck no, I'm not doing this. Because it's it's the one where they were gonna lose the rights to it. So they wrote the script in seventy two hours. It feels like the Brothers Porn parody of it. It is so atrociously bad. That my husband and I watched all of these. We we tend to complete horror movie franchises. So we watched the first one, we're like, we fucking love this. We watched the second, then we just kept watching them. And after we watched nine, we had to like take a break from movie watching from a for a month. ⁓ An entire month. An entire month. Wow. I can't imagine. Don't you wonder ⁓ because Clive Barker and Simon Bamford, who played Butterball, and Doug Bradley were all friends before the first movie was made. So they're all buddies with Clive, and in fact, that you know, apparently there's some sort of maybe orgy and all sorts of stuff, right? So I love that they go way back. But what I wonder is as Hellraiser continued to jump the shark, what was the friendship like between Doug and Clive? As Clive watches his brilliant, you know, intellectual property just be turned into the McDonald's of horror franchises. Because he got picked up by dimension films. It was Bob Weinstein and they were just churning they were churning them out. Yeah. I'm guessing that Doug got roped into a contract for like a multiple film contract. He probably did. That's and did not expect things to go the way that they did. So that So maybe that's why their friendship survived. Yeah. I can't imagine there being bad blood between them. Because Doug has bad mouthed, ⁓ quite a few of the D T V ones himself. Yeah. Understandably. I mean, number number nine is the one when it came out, they were ⁓ marketing it as, you know, from the mind of Clive Barker. And Clive Barker took to this was the two thousands, so he took to social media to make a statement that the movie No. Is so far removed from his mind, it's not even from his asshole. ⁓ Good for him. And this is why we love Clive Parker. Yeah. I don't remember the first time I watched this movie, but Hellraisers one, two, and three have been with me since I was pretty young, honestly. So I probably watched this when I was like eleven, twelve for the first time. And I'll I'll talk more about this on our next episode. But Hellraiser three was actually the first one that I saw. And it was because I was like, ⁓ it's Dax from Deep Space Nine. Yeah. Again, I'll talk more about that next week. But you know, then I went back, I watched one and two, probably recognized. Which is the one with the C D Centibyte. That's that's number three. Yeah. DJ C D Centibyte. Yeah. That's as far as I got was three because I watched three ⁓ you know, remember I was older than you all. So I when I saw these. So by the time three came out and part one and part two had affected my thirteen and fifteen year old brain. You know what I mean? Like I I go to the movies to watch part three and I left pissed off. You know four is really fun. Four is really, really fun. A lot of people are like, Ugh, it's Hellraiser in space, but that's really just a framing device. Everything They they were all in space Except Baby Adam Sky. All horror movies were in space at that point. So But four has a lot of good stuff in it. You get some mythology about how the box was created, and you also get some really nice set pieces and Yes, and good gore. Good gore. An excellent lady Cenobite in Angelique, who again we'll we'll talk about that in a couple weeks, but yeah, I Are you doing all of them? We're doing two, three, four, and twenty twenty-two. We did And what's twenty twenty-two called? Is it just called Hellraiser? I call it number eleven. I loved it. But that's that's the one with Jamie Clayton as the Hell Priest. And I am in love with her. I love this movie. I I I was texting with y'all earlier today about how sometimes I vacillate between whether one or two is my preferred film because this does something that I really love when movies do especially a sequel where it expands upon the original without losing the spirit of it and it doesn't make itself convoluted. It's Things from the first. It just makes itself fascinating and engrossing, and and I really appreciate that about it. And I also appreciate learning more about movies. So let's head to our next section, Faith and Chance. I can't exist by myself because I'm afraid of myself. Because I'm the maker of my own evil. Goodness is only some kind of reflection upon evil. That's all it is. So, what was happening in movies at the time? This movie came out in 1988, and the 80s are a really, really fascinating decade for cinema. So this is a co-production between the US and the UK. That's not so strange in terms of what was going on in US cinema, UK cinema. Our film industries are pretty closely connected. So the things that are getting portrayed in their films and the things that are getting portrayed in our films are Pretty much on par. One of the big differences is in terms of more progressive outlooks and whatnot. The UK tends to be about a year or two ahead of us, especially with things that are made for TV. Our television industry also is further ahead than our film industry. And I'm I'm bringing that up because I'm specifically talking about queer films. So post Stonewall, nineteen sixty-nine, you get this sort of Interesting time period where studios and the major studios and then also kind of the indie offshoots of studios are open to and looking to make films with queer lead characters, mainly cis gay men, in a positive light, not being the villains of the story, not being sidekicks, but actually getting romantic plot lines. And this time period lasts from 1970 to 1982 and ends after Making Love comes out. Because you have this little thing called the AIDS crisis. So when that really swings in in full force, the film industry pulls the fuck back. Television, so movies of the week, specifically ABC, they start tackling that subject matter in their weekly movies. And then interestingly, in the UK, a movie called My Beautiful Laundrette. Gets made in nineteen eighty five. It stars Daniel Day Lewis in one of his first starring roles. Peaches, I fucking hate Daniel Day Lewis. We covered the Phantom Thread and I was so mad about it. I have a lot of thoughts about him, but I love my beautiful laundrette with a passion. And I love Phantom Threads. And this movie follows a Pakistani British boy. And a white former member of the National Front who were schoolmates and become lovers. And they were definitely lovers when they were kids. In it is this culture clash rom drum with a romantic happy ending. It was made for about $450,000 for television for UK Channel 4, but ended up getting a theatrical release, getting nominated for the best adapted screenplay at the Academy Awards, and So producers looked at that and thought, ⁓ maybe the door is open for us to do this again. Merchant Ivory in nineteen eighty seven does Morris, which does not do as well as Laundrette. It does much better over here in the States, which is interesting than it does in the UK. So that's all important because you get then get movies like Hellraiser and Tellraiser 2, which, you know, based on the Hellbound Heart, which is a 1986 novella. So you and Clive Barker is an openly gay man, you can't not look at this movie series and not look at the queer content. And it's also coming on the heels of the golden age of the slasher movie. And slasher movies are often analyzed through a lens of being a backlash to not only queer rights, but also the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s. So you kind of combine all of that and you get something. Like the Hellraiser movies. As for what was really popular in the year this came out, big diehard Foo Framed Roger Rabbit. Which excellent excellent ⁓ gateway horror. Yes. Hey, Who Framed Roger Rabbit has moments of pure horror. That's what I'm saying. Absolutely. When that shoe goes in her dick. It's That was good. Have you ever done Jessica Rabbit? No, I just get called her. Well, I was gonna say I wish I have. I wish I had. All right, Caitlin, over to you. So this movie famously was not written or directed by Clive Barker, but since this is the first one that we are covering, I wanted to just give a little bit of history on Who's Clive Barker? ⁓ in case you don't know. A lot of this is taken from Arrow's Quartet of Torment that was put out a couple of years ago. 2023. Thank you, 2023. That's the first four movies. And it came with this book called Ages of Desire by Phil and Sarah Stokes, which I read. I have not read it. I'm just gonna keep going. I'm just gonna keep going with it and like, There's so much interesting history here. I like how that's what you read recently, and I just read Nathan Leopold's autobiography. ⁓ great times But I say they weren't the supermen that they thought they were. ⁓ not even getting started. So not today. So Clive Barker, author, screenwriter, playwright, artist, many, many hats he has worn, and notable homosexual. What's wild to me is when I read this it was like used to have sex with older women, but around the time he turned like seven I think he was like sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, he realized he was gay. And I was like, all right, get it, girl. Like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He also had this history of putting like flaying puzzles, demons, or angels to some in his works. And a large part of this was Faustus Dr. Faust and what followed, because I'm never gonna not make that ⁓ Phantom of the Opera connection. ⁓ Mistopheles. Mephistopheles. Mephistopheles. You know so funny is because I said it Karen. I said it ⁓ incorrectly when I was thinking of it in my head, and then I wrote it out and went, ⁓ yes, Mephistopheles, of course it is. Still didn't get correct. And Clive Barker was Making this movie called The Forbidden. It was a short story. This is before he had a film career. And he did it with like Peter Atkins, Doug Bradley, a lot of people who were brought in for Hellbound Hellraiser 2. And this idea of like the surgeon of God. He was really into like the skin being ripped apart. He was Very into these Thessalias prints by Andris van Wezel. That's Dutch, so it's gonna be whatever I say it is. Who wrote on the fabric of the human body in seven books. He was called the father of, I'm putting it Western, modern human anatomy. And these books included wood prints that were highly influential on Barker and his aesthetics. Some other influences Of Clive Barker's Kenneth Anger. I really liked this quote where he said one of the inspirations for this these pieces was the work of Kenneth Anger, which I first saw in the late sixties. At the time my hometown of Liverpool boasted a burgeoning art scene, and there were small but overfilled screenings of American underground films every few weeks. Many of these offerings lost me. Chelsea Girls was a fine so poor Soporific. Soperific. Soporific. You know, I say these all correctly until I get in front of people and I'm just like Shu. It just no, it says I know. Fair. I never learned how to read. So but Anchor's films with their mingling of homosexual signals, impenetrable occult symbolism, and sheer cinematic brio mesmerized me. They formed in my mind a bridge between the work I might attempt myself, they weren't technically very polished, and the more mainstream films that I had an appetite for horror, science fiction, biblical epics, and musicals. I want a Hellraiser musical. I do too. I want a Hellraiser opera. ⁓ Kinda like the way the Met just did the Bluebeard opera, the really kinky staging of it. Amanda loves a bluebeard. I do. I do love me a bluebeard. And he continues, ⁓ here was a cinema of hallucination, lushly stylized and perversely metaphysical. What more could I want by way of a model? That is such a beautiful way to talk about your influences. I talk about the things that have influenced my music over the years. I've been doing a lot of discography deep dives from my vinyl collection. I'm going through the cure right now. And Yes. And like I realized that even though pornography is my favorite album by the cure, faith had way more influence on the music that I make. And it's so beautiful to be able to find those influences and make your own thing that you may not have done if you hadn't experienced those other pieces of art. That's the other thing that is wonderful about the world that we live in, as far as, you know, we're at a time now where the art we're creating is all informed by the art that came before us. And so I always love it when, you know, my my thing lately has been like, I'm going to celebrate and talk about all the drag queens that existed before RuPaul's drag race. Like I need the world to know who Doris Fish was. I need the world to know who Vaginal Cream Davis is. And when you look at someone like Clive Barker who did have a level of success That was almost astounding when you consider where he came from and who he was and the work he's making. The fact that he talks about a satanic filmmaker like Kenneth Enger, who was also queer. I fucking love that because he's saying this queer filmmaker who was friends with Anton LeVay and and obsessed with the devil and making movies like Lucifer's Rising inspired me to go on and make Hellraiser. I love it. It's great. And I'm glad that you brought it up because I'd never heard that quote before and it gave me chills. Yes. I really love how Clive Barker also talked about Hellraiser. He's like it's a romance. Like a a story of intense passion and desire with a puzzle and consequences of solving that puzzle as devices to explore the perversity and depth of those human desires. Just He is a very eloquent man. He is. Yes. Even when he is absolutely reading something for filth. sometimes that's when he is the most eloquent. Love that. I God. When he tears things down. Mm-hmm. There is an excellent quote. ⁓ it's Doug Bradley going, he always was giving me the best notes Of any director to any actor ever. And ⁓ this was for one of the stage shows that they were doing. And he was just like, Clive gave me a note that was say this line as if the northern wind was blowing through your eyeballs. Wonderful. I've told you this, but Hellraiser was a huge influence on my Beast of Two Backs script. ⁓ I can tell. Yeah. And and I mean that. In a good way. Huge influence. I gotta read that again. Wait, I can send you the new actually a ⁓ you have a new draft? I have a new draft, but that was Ephraim has read that script and Peach's he was I I was trying to do a like staged reading and I was like, We should have a drag queen read the stage directions because they are intense. And we're talking about May never show up. You don't know. We don't know. ⁓ really? That's amazing. It won't be Ephraim. I mean what I love about that is go ahead and hire Ephraim and then get me. ⁓ I think that's what we have all learned. ⁓ my god. But speaking of people, not hired. No, I'm kidding. Because I I do kind of feel like famously like I said that, Clive Barker did not write or direct this. There are a lot of people, especially in the special features of Hellbound, talking about like, ⁓ what Clive did was so original and unique and this and that. However, he had just signed on to a a book deal. So he's like, I can't do both at all. So he did not do the directing or screenplay. However, he did do the story. And he was an incredibly hands-on, like executive producer. He was there a lot. And his longtime collaborators, Peter Atkins, he brought on to write a script. They had formed a theater company called The Dog Company. when they were in their late teens, early twenties with Doug Bradley. So this all just decades and decades in the making. Peter Atkins is actually the person in the forbidden short story that gets flayed. Yep. It's gorgeous. Cause Clive Barker painted him all black and then did like kind of almost a woodcut print on Peter Atkins' body. It's excellent. There's also penis, so if you're into that Wonderful. Hang and dong. Flayed dong. Yeah. Flay and dong. Tony Randall, who is the director of this movie, was an executive, a post-production for Roger Corman's New World Pictures that put this out. Ugh, Roger Corman. Excellent. And Tony Randall was heavily, heavily involved. In the editing for Hellraiser and a lot of the post production, he is not credited. However, he was there, so he really felt like he was taking Clive Barker's work. Again, Clive Barker was there. All of this to make the second movie, which obviously starts right after the first one. As we've talked about, that the first movie is a haunted house picture, which I didn't even think about. ⁓ It was brought out. I was like, ⁓ of course, we're in like almost one location. It's basically a haunted house slasher. Yes. And bringing hell to the real world versus the second one, which the people have called it a lot. They're like, and it's asylum. It's a chase picture. It is bringing us all to hell instead of hell to us. Less about the pursuit of sexual gratification, but the pursuit of knowledge and this idea of the Orpheus myth, where instead of Orpheus looking for Eurydice, Eurydice is searching for Orpheus. So we have Kirsty on the path to look for her father who was not there, girl. Like ⁓ you got tricked. Poor Larry. You got got She got gone. She really did. Did she really think her dad was right in that? He didn't do anything. She gets her revenge. I mean, that that scene with Frank I is one of my favorites because as a young person I didn't get it as well as I do as an adult. But to basically stick a sex addict in hell where they're being taunted by delicious, beautiful, sexy, bloody maidens But anytime he gets near them, they kind of disappear into the walls. But what's weird about that moment is like Christy's ability to sort of kill him is kind of random. She's just like, whatever. And then sets the whole place on fire. He's like, What? Yeah. Which huge fan of. Just set it on fire, girl. Like fire cleanses. That's how we're gonna take it all down. Yes. So what what kind of influence has this had on our culture? So the budget at the time was three million. Nowadays that would be about six million at the time, 1988, it made 12.1 million. Most of that was in the United States. Like a huge portion of that was the United States, which today would be about 24.5 million at the box office. Four years later, we get Hellraiser 3, Hell on Earth. This I am so bummed out every time I look. Get it. I know that Ashley Lawrence had signed on for two movies. However, Julia was supposed to be the star of the franchise. Mm-hmm. However, one of the things that I heard was during the screenings of Hellraiser, it became really clear that the audience was latching on to the Cenobites, particularly Lead Centibyte, played by Doug Bradley. Lead Cenobite. Yeah. No, that's that's how he was originally credited in the first movie. But it's funny because if you watch any of the modern versions with captions, they do list him as pinhead. Yep. It's that sort of I mean, every all of us know this story about the marketing of it and how that all happened. The tale on its own of Julia, and this is why I love the first two movies so much, is so film-centered. It's such film-centered horror. And even Lead Cinnabite does not come off as some sort of toxic straight male, you know, killer. Like he comes off as a little queer, right? And then there's all the leather stuff, right? So when you're marketing this movie, I wonder if that first poster, if it had come out and it featured Julia on it, you know, as the wicked queen. Which she's really not until the second movie. But I'm just wondering how much could have become But that one sheet, that one sheet with Pinhead holding that box, if you go back and you look at that one sheet for the first movie, that's it. That's where he became the star in everyone's mind. Because it is so compelling. The makeup is so amazing. The costume is so incredible. And then let's face it, by withholding the characters, we want more. We want more. We want more. So it's this interesting thing. But I I do think that Claire Higgins and Julia. in many ways don't get their their sort of credit, which is really you she is so brilliant in these movies and so evil in a way that we didn't see in these sorts of horror movies. I think it was ahead of its time. You know Yeah. It absolutely We look at movies like Hereditary Now and Tony Collette and it's like, guess what? Claire Higgins paved the way, right? Like she showed up and was amazing. Yeah and if the stories had gone a slightly different way, they could have almost been good for her for Julia's character. Yeah, absolutely. She's a really complicated character and she's so compelling. She's so compelling. And Claire Higgins, ⁓ I've never seen her give uneven just good performance. I have only ever seen her give excellent performances. And one of the things I love is that she is not a horror fan. So she has never watched the first two Hellraiser movies. I think she said she could watch up until like Frank first shows up. That scene is ⁓ man. The first time I saw that movie, I was just I was floored, I was disgusted, I was horrified, and I was enamored. ⁓ I think I cheersed. ⁓ Also, because horror has a stigma around a surprise. I think there are two things. She didn't want to continue with the franchise because she was not a fan of horror, but there was a point where she was like, if anyone's gonna hire me after hellbound, like that was a worry that she had. Like she was going to get st stuck in the genre, stuck, quote unquote. The thing that I also found really interesting was that. Ashley Lawrence, who played Kirstie, is also not a fan of horror movies. She does come back for the sixth one, which is not a great movie. But at least it's not the fifth one. Well, and I do know from interviews and archival material. She did at least have fun doing this. Absolutely. And I don't know if y'all have watched the two-part documentary about the making of the first two movies. It's pretty good. But there are so many men who worked on that first movie who had nothing but negative things to say about her because it was like a debut performance. And I don't understand what they're talking about because I think Ashley Lawrence is excellent in both of these films. I think she's compellingly awkward in a way that they are reading as like bad performance. And I'm like, no, it's real. I like camera. Yes. I really like that she's not like other actors that we can immediately latch on to 'cause she's doing a performance that we've seen before. And I'm like, I think it's unique and good. And in fact I think Heather Langenkamp does the same thing in a nightmare Elm Street and Yes, and that's why Heather and Kirsty are two of my favorite final girls. They're just different and and they're a little bit awkward and the performance is different. But guess what? Teenagers and young women are that and I loved that, you know, and the other thing about ⁓ her ⁓ is that's been nice is she seems to like a lot of horror actors who aren't fans of the genre, they become fans of the genre. Not because they become fans of the films, but they become fans of the fans. And she seems to have b been able to embrace, ⁓ these are sick, weird people who are actually lovable, empathetic. Since you know, she seems to get that these fans are cool people, which I like. Yeah. I just had the quote that it was cold, sticky, and sweet. So that was after she got doused in blood, which was like carrow syrup, and then had to just sit around. And because it is ⁓ corn syrup, it d it doesn't evaporate at all. So you're just sitting there and just sticky, sticky cold sweetness the whole time. I was like, I I get it. As someone who's worn that kind kind of blood in photo shoots and different on stage. In fact, I was so covered in blood for so long in my early drag career that the tits I used to use, because none of us could afford expensive breast, you know, even though they made those chicken cutlets and all that stuff, they were expensive. You know, and like even if you were trans, it was like it was like this is a a major expense because they're ⁓ yeah, this is an investment. It was an investment. And so we used to, the cheap grunge drag queens that we were, we used to take birdseed and fill pantyhose with them and tie them off with a knot and the knot would make a little nipple and it would actually it would actually move in a way that looked effective because the bird seed, you know. I did so many gore performances exactly and I did so many gore performances that I went to get my tits and put them on once and they had sprouted. Because the blood and the syrup had g g been enough to gen generate sprouts. And I remember cutting off sprouts of my tits before like going to do a number. Yeah. ⁓ my god. ⁓ man. It's it's like me having to shave my chest a little bit. That's why I still grow chest hair, unfortunately. Yeah, there you go. That is officially my favorite piece of peaches lore now. That is amazing. I'm just imagining these like sprouting titties As their own form of horror. It's so good. Yeah, it'd be like in annihilation. Well, we were this was so common in the 90s that if you watch one of my short films called Season of the Troll, there's this moment where the troll stabs me in the tit and you know it's really violent. And then I scream and you and I'm grabbing my tit, and all this bird seed's pouring out of my you know chest and my hands. And if you were there, like at the time, the audience would cheer because they were like Bird seed and panty house. We know what that is. But I think drag queens now would be like, what the fuck? Why is it bird seed pouring out of her? She used what? I just listened to the episode of The Suns at Prom where they covered now and then and there was the discussion about filling water balloons with pudding to to make f you know fake boobs. ⁓ huh. And I I thought about it and I was like, I just wouldn't want to waste the pudding. And what how do you get the pudding in there? I don't know. A syringe? ⁓ yeah, really? Turkey based? Like one of those cake icing things could work with. Yeah, that's an icing bag. An icing bag, yeah. That's a work. Well Piping bag, that's what the piping bag, yes, that is what it's called. Lay that this is a baking podcast. Welcome back to Pleasers and Punishers, where we rate your bakes. I have no idea how to transition to this, so I'll just say On Rotten Tomatoes, this has an approval rating of fifty two percent based on thirty three reviews. It has a six point four out of ten on IMTB and a three point three out of five on Letterboxed. All blue, all too low. Yeah. I mean this this used to be like a four star movie for me and I rewatched it today and talking about it, this is a five star movie for me, so I agree. It's a four and a half, maybe five for me. It it's always been a four and a half for me. So ⁓ well, let's make that money. One day we'll have sponsors. And now we'll dig into the meat, the goo, the viscera, the skin suits in a section we call Enough Is a Myth. Isn't Okay. This series focuses heavily on the fine line between pain and pleasure, sex and death, much like this podcast. The Hellbound Heart novella was published in 1986 and written, of course, by Clive Barker. A lot has been read into the series as a metaphor for AIDS. What other metaphors do you read into Hellbound? Given the historical context, is it impossible to overlook and divorce it from the AIDS metaphor? You know, it's funny because I have never really looked at this as an AIDS metaphor. Same. It feels so specifically about queerness and the exploration of things within queerness that cis straight people just cannot wrap their heads around. And I think that scares them and I I think the fear of the unknown there, the fear of trying things different, the fear of doing anything other than having boring missionary sex is so abhorrent to them. Can't have too many thrusts. Can't have too many thrusts. Reginald, could we finish in five or less tonight, please? Lie back and think of England. It's not something that I've necessarily read into it, because for me it's just about the transgressive nature of queer sex itself. And obviously, yes, the eighties, it is hard to separate the idea of queer sex from what happened with the AIDS crisis. But yeah, for me it's it's just about exploring your quote unquote forbidden desires. I totally agree with you because I think a lot of us bring the AIDS to it because Clive talked about it, right? So it makes sense that we're seeing it because we're told that this was part of it. So of course, AIDS colored everything if you were creative making work at this time and you were queer and you were losing so many friends and this plague had descended upon. So of course it did. But I agree with you, May, that when I watch it, and especially as a queer person who watched it, and a Queer, horror-loving kid who was seeing myself reflected in horror movies. I can say that this one is very different than the typical slasher queer read where I would identify with both the monster and the final girl. And you know, that queer read is so common, and that's why so many of us, you know, especially Gen Xers, were really attached to both Heather Langkamp and Freddie Krueger. We could identify with both. With this, for me. Especially hellbound, this is like I'm gonna go to that leather bar. I'm gonna walk into that back room. I'm gonna go to a bathhouse and walk the hallways and be terrified because it's confronting every bit of Catholic guilt that has been, you know, beaten into me. And so for me, hellbound is about pushing the boundaries and giving myself over to my entire queer self. That's how I've read it for years. And I agree with you. For me, that's a more powerful reading than the AIDS one because I like the idea that, well, maybe hell isn't so bad, you know? ⁓ And I think like this one in particular that is elevating like Christy and Julia like as our like protagonists, yeah, our avatars. Like we are putting the divas up in front, which is Just so excellently queer. Like you said, ⁓ God, the leather of it all. Just Yeah, it I I always love that Rob Halford brought leather to metal from the gay scene and Clive Barker brought leather to horror from the gay scene. And Clive brought the idea that pain could be pleasure. I mean, for a mainstream movie to sort of introduce a sadomasochistic You know, kind of unapologetically in a way that was like confusing, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, I remember watching the first one and being like, I don't know who to root for. It's like should you be turned on or should you not be turned on? And I mean clearly in my intro I was like, Uncle Frank can punish me, so Yeah. Hey, look, Sean Chapman is good looking. Yeah. Yeah. He is good looking. You want a few things, which is is c more complicated than a typical horror movie. You want Kirsty to find her dad, but you also want to explore the nether regions, and in some ways it's very satisfying to see that shitty doctor kind of get his wish. You know, I actually enjoy that he gets to become this dickhead. You know? Literally. Yeah. Yeah. But then he also Overestimates his own power and it gets him killed. Mm-hmm. Which I love. It's very Greek tragedy and about humorous and pushing it too far. And I think, yeah, that's another reason why queer people are so drawn to it in a way that 'cause I've definitely heard a lot of just like cishet people watch these movies and and go, I don't I what is well, yeah, it's not for you. I don't know. It's not your It's not for you. Go go be boring somewhere else. Go explore more nether regions is where I decide. I will never forget showing this movie to a couple of my friends. And this was a couple with one femme person who I believe is still non-binary and one dude. And the dude is like, you know, very comfortable with his sexuality, but pretty straight. And he also was not super into horror movies, and I showed it to them and my femme friend fucking loved it. This dude was like genuinely upset at the end of the movie. And I felt really bad, but at the same time I'm like, well, guess it sucks being straight, huh? It's got a good ending. What's upsetting about the ending? I think he was just like freaked out. ⁓ I used to show it to groups of people. I would like to bring people over and show this movie to them. And I wasn't even out. I just, it's funny when I look back on these things and I'm like, you bitch, you used to gather, collect groups of people and bring them to your a place. And and this is when I still lived with my parents. You know, this movie was out when I was h in high school and I got the VHS. And when I think about it now, the other part. Part of this, but in addition to the say obviously the sadomasochistic queer read, it's not, you know, it's not a reach. But the other part of it that I think is in there is addiction and drugs. And you know, Hellraiser 2022 so much. It has that element of w you know, we can push ourselves to a degree to experience pleasure and we can also push ourselves over the edge. And I like that that there's that read and or not read, I think it's just there, you know. Yeah. But as someone who's battled with addiction and battled with my queerness and also my gender identity and everything else. I think Yeah, these movies, especially hellbound, it's like, well, what better than a giant puzzle, you know? Okay. There's a big focus. We've talked a lot about women being centered in this movie, and there's a pretty big focus on mothers. Julia is Kirsty's evil stepmother. She even refers to herself in terms of the fairy tale idea of the evil stepmother. Tiffany has been placed in a psychiatric facility by her mother, who then, you know, gets killed by the evil doctor. And Kirsty eventually takes on a maternal role towards Tiffany and then saves her while wearing Julia's skin. Despite sanitized depictions in other media, childbirth, like this movie, is really fucking bloody. Real gross. So I've heard. So disgusting. Yes, so I've heard. My friends have told me. I have not been through it. What is Hellbound saying about motherhood and the role that maternal figures play in our lives, whether they're biological mothers or adoptive or step parents or drag mothers? I almost feel like this is just like that shit that they were doing at this time. We're like aliens introduced the kid a few years later. This is all fucking James Cameron. Terminator 2 introduces a child and then all of a sudden What I like about this movie though is that when I feel like a lot of these movies have introduced children into them as well, that it takes down all of the tension in the movie. You're like, ⁓ the kid's gonna be fine. She's gonna be fine. Him, her, they're gonna They're not killing a kid in this movie, which is when I started watching Korean cinema, I was like, ⁓ shit, we're killing kids! So I find it very interesting, just like in this time period that they were introducing a lot of children, particularly in sequels. However, I want to say one thing that was kind of wild to me in that scene where Kirsty and And Tiffany were walking off into the sunset. And I think on the second commentary on Hellbound, Peter Atkins go, and there they go to live their best lesbian lives. And I went, wait a minute, sir. Wait a minute. See, and it's funny because I always interpreted their relationship as more sisterly. Sisterly. And I I think that actually ties into how I feel about this, is that Anyone can take on the role of a maternal figure, depending on the situation. Whether you know, there there are a lot of oldest children in families who end up taking on a parental role. Yeah, I I you've talked about that. I I think that being someone's mother or mother figure is something that you have to decide to do and commit yourself to. And the person you are doing that for has to be enthusiastically consenting to it because otherwise you're not gonna have the relationship you want to try to have with that person. They are going to see you as overbearing, overprotective, controlling, etc. And like that's something that real mothers can do as well. And I I'm not gonna go into all my mommy trauma, but Yeah, I mean, just because you're someone's mom doesn't mean you're good for them. I never wanted to be your mother. You're not my real mom and you never will be. I I think maybe it's not motherhood exactly, but what I liked about the addition of Tiffany was the sort of guy in affection, the the women helping women and the two of them bonding. And it's sort of kind of balances the sort of trope of the first one of the the stepmother and the daughter, you know, and kind of fighting about men and, you know, a father. Whereas I felt like in the second one she's Julia's so evil and so wicked and so cartoony, which I loved. I mean it's fabulous. I just love it. Yeah, it's fabulous. But I really like that Kirsty You know, gets gets a buddy and someone to go on this journey with and someone who can smartly help her use their brain to figure things out. Well, in a cliche box. In a cliched movie, they would have made Tiffany a boy, right? Like that's that's the way it would have been done. And I think what Hellbound did is it's another way of querying it, which is like no Two women can do this together, you know. Yeah, it really centers women in the story and that's fantastic. You're right. It would be a boy now. Yeah. I love the moment when Tiffany finally speaks and the first thing she says is, ⁓ shit. And Kirsty just looks at her like, Wait, you can fucking talk? I just choose not to thank you. Yeah. Hey, I mean if my mom committed me to a psychiatric facility 'cause I liked doing puzzles a case I have in front. In front of me? How dare you? It it yeah, selective mutism is a real trauma response. Yeah. Alert to keep my mouth shut at that point. Okay, finally, a lot of characters in this movie go through literal transformations. Elliot is transformed into lead Cenobite. The Hell Priest, popularly known as Pinhead. How dare you? Julia is reborn and dies again. Dr. Chennard is transformed into a dickhead. Send a fightization. Send no fitization into a dickhead. He is Professor Penis. Professor Penis in the Labyrinth with the Leviathan. I am I'm coining it now. His Cenobite name is Professor Penis. At the end of the movie, Kirsty manages to escape by showing Pinhead his previous humanity and the other Cenobites. These transformations all occur for these characters because they want something that they just can't let go. Whether it's physical pleasures, knowledge, power, what is this saying about human nature? Do we get tunnel vision when striving for a goal and lose ourselves in the process? Are people that malleable? ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yes. A week from today is the six year anniversary of me starting hormone replacement therapy. Congrats. I was thank you. I was 33 when I started that. And I am almost 40 now. And the fact that I knew I was trans for almost 30 years before I actually got to do anything about it tells me that, yeah. People are very malleable. And I think it is a natural thing, whether you are neurodivergent or not, to get tunnel vision when you are trying to achieve a goal. And you can just ignore everything else and let everything else in your life fall apart because that is all you care about. And you know, you you watch movies, you watch media. TV shows as well. And there are these moments where people just have simple conversations. Someone can say just the right word, just the right phrase that completely changes someone's perspective and makes them realize, like, ⁓ shit, I have been approaching this all wrong, or I I have been treating this person not the way I want to treat them. Any aspect of Interpersonal relationships within humanity, even with ourselves, it is so easy for us to just lose sight of what really matters in a lot of cases. And it is also so easy to just wake up to it as long as someone says the right thing to you at the right time. Well, the human brain is fascinating where that malleability is concerned, right? Like we I think about it this way like I I've Diagnosed ADHD that's untreated, right? So I Yeah, okay. So I know and my doctor now. Yeah, my doctor and I've talked about, okay, I didn't get diagnosed for a long, long time. And so I have learned to be able to juggle enough things that it actually works for my ADHD. And so some people go, ⁓ my God, how do you do so much? It's like 'cause I have to. I'm not slowing down. ⁓ You will kill me if I do. Right. And that's part of my ability to whatever, to adapt, right? But on the flip side, the idea of getting on I just flew from Istanbul to San Francisco, to sitting in a coach seat on a fucking plane and having to be trapped there for 14 hours is is hell in the air. I can't believe that I'm able to go into a mode on that flight. Where I give myself almost Stockholm syndrome. And when the flight is ending, my brain is saying, You don't want to get off. You never want to leave this airplane. You love it here. You better finish this movie. I'm like, my brain is able to kind of go into this survival mode, you know? And it's like, I don't know what that is, but humans and our brains are so fascinating. Well, I'm obsessed with cults, right? And so I look at things like Patricia Hearst or you know, and I'm like, ⁓ my well, look at the fucking brainwashing we're living with right now. It took one news network to create the biggest cult we've ever seen, you know? Yeah. So it's fascinating our ability to be malleable. I hope that we're ⁓ able to be malleable, you know, real quick because we need to turn s change course, you know. Oof. And as a gender fluid Bisexual with ADHD, the answer is yes. It is And on that yes. I think it's time to play a game. Hello. ⁓ yes, show me your sights. Yeah, I was gonna say you didn't do it in the voice. sorry. Do you like to play a game, Kirsty? What? Are you playing games with us? That was good. Whoa. So I'm hoping this is gonna be a fairly easy one today. It's not gonna take Fuck Mary killed Santa Bite. I know. I think ⁓ we're absolutely I mean, we have many movies right now. So what I was going to say is I can't remember what I called this game before, but we're doing Ouvra with Clive Barker. So these are movies that are either based on stories that he wrote or he was the writer on. So I am going to have you all, as they were released, put these movies into order. As per usual, I did not Put these actually in alphabetical order, but I could do it in my head. I was so close. So we have Candyman, Hellbound, Hellraiser 2, Lord of Illusions, Nightbreed, and Rawhide Rex. Rawhide Rex? Rahide Read. We're putting them in chronological order. That's the challenge. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ I know that Hellbound came out in 1988. Are you gonna give us the years and we have to figure out which movie fits which year? No, just put them in order when they were released. I know what the order is. I go with what May says. ⁓ I know Candyman came out when I was in college. There's a few that I remember seeing, you know, in theaters. I know Nightbreed is after hellbound. I don't know. May would you want to just tell us? Yeah. It's Raw Had Rex, Hellbound, Nightbreed, Candyman, Lord of Illusions. Was she right? Correct. Yes, she is. Yes, she is. Good job. ⁓ my god, we all got I was like, I feel like this is gonna be like the least cards. Well, could we do a lightning round where everyone has to say of those titles what your absolute favorite is? Ooh, I like that. Yes, let's do it. All right. Of those titles, which is your absolute favorite? Lightning round. Go. Candyman. Hellraiser two. Hellraiser two. Nice. Caitlin, what's yours? So I I now I'm stuck with Nightbreed or Hellraiser too and just going, ⁓ no. I realized in the last couple of years that Candyman was actually my gateway horror movie. And because I've lived in Chicago my whole life, it very deeply affected me when I saw it when I was five or six years old. And so I trust me, I love the Hellraiser movies, but there's something about Candyman. Candyman is a very close second, but I think because of the age I was when Hellbound came out and the way that it informed me. But I would say that for me, Candyman's a very close second than Nightbreed. It's just the way that that Julia speaks to me. yeah. I was like the first The first two color raised remember. Now now I'm thinking of Tony Todd, and I'm just like, wait, is the answer Candyman? Because holy shit, Tony Todd. You remember. One of my questions for a recent episode was like, Would you wear that dress? And when Julia's in that blue dress, I was like, ⁓ I can imagine Amanda in that dress. ⁓ absolutely. I would absolutely I want that. That whole look. Again, how her hair is even when she has the bandages on stuff. Yeah, no, that dress is amaz. It's so it it's so double indemnity. ⁓ It's which it cut yeah, with the soft curls all of a sudden. Again, I love her severe hair. I had short, short hair for a long time. But when she comes out with that soft hair and that dress, it's with her skin on, it's like ⁓ with her skin on. Look at you. Julia's makeup in the first movie was actually a huge inspiration for why I do my makeup the way I do it, especially my eyeshadow. It was half Julia and half. PJ Harvey from this one particular photo shoot where she has light blue, very heavy eyeshadow from the tops of her eyes all the way up to her eyebrows. I know exactly what photo shoot you're talking about. I know exactly which one that is. So you combine that aesthetic with Julia's aesthetic, and that's why I do my makeup the way I do. From the tops to the bottoms. Caitlin, did you did you choose a favorite? I kind of just waffled around the whole thing, which I sometimes will do. And and then we move on, and I'm like, I didn't actually have to answer that. It was great. Yeah. I mean gender fluid bisexual. Can't make a decision. How did it feel today? Can't Caitlyn can't make a decision. I can't sit in this chair that I know. I know you cannot. Straddle in that chair. Hey, at least you're not on your knees in front of that tiny low table. That's what I said. On your knees in front of what? Amanda's at her in-laws right now and not like On your knees in front of your in-laws? ⁓ my god. Because I did watch the entire Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy with my in-laws. On your knees. ⁓ my god. On your knees on that? I was like in front of that yeti, which would be Most Larry, by the way. ⁓ that's hilarious. Okay, well well speaking of things that are punishing. How would you categorize this movie? Pleaser, punisher, kinky, queer. Queer fuck, yeah. Queer and kinky. Yes. Absolutely. May all the all of the above. Yes. Yeah. Unequivocally and inherently queer and kinky. It is just part of this film's DNA. And we'll we'll talk about it next week, but I think that's one of the big things missing from Hellraiser 3. It doesn't feel queer. Agreed. That's a big issue with a lot of the D T Vs. It's why four is fun again, because there is queerness in it. And then yeah. And it's why I have a weird soft spot for number seven. Because it's a little queer. You have the butler from the parent trap being a cunty little shit. Who doesn't love that? So there's like it's not it's not suit as queer. As the first two, but it's coming back to it and it's going back to being kinky again. Mm-hmm. And that's why it's of all the D T V is the one I have a soft spot for. Does anyone know if the twenty twenty two version is one and done, or are we getting another? I don't know, but I'm the size that just came from myself and May. I think it was a one and done. Peaches, I don't remember if I told you this, but the last album that I put out is based on Hellraiser 2022. ⁓ wow. Yeah. Like that's how much I love that release. Send it to how much they love. Okay. I well it you can even get it on vinyl if you have a record book. ⁓ okay. My husband has a vinyl collection and so I have I have a little collection within his collection. Yeah. But I I I'm a big David Bruckner fan in general. I have loved all of the movies that he's done and I would kill For him to make another movie and expand upon the already expanded lore that I think he did so well in that. But there's been no news of it. I know a lot of people just refer to it as Hulu Razor and don't really like it very much. And those people are wrong. I I loved it from the first time I watched it. And especially when you consider what we've had since part one and two, right? Like I'm sorry, but Hulu Razor is on another level. Like come on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a real movie on like a bunch of the GTVs. And it's queer. You know, queer. I definitely don't have the affinity for it the way that the three of you do. ⁓ Which is nothing against it. It's nothing against it. I am just so attached to the first two. ⁓ for sure. Bloodiness and and the like sexiness of them. Which the remake It's not a rema the new movie i isn't giving you that same level of sexiness. It's a very different metaphor. And I don't think I connected with it in the same way as I do like woman being punished for sexual desires. Which is probably quite telling. Here I am. Alright, do we have any final thoughts? Are we ready to wrap up like Julia in her bandages? Don't you see he's got us now? Okay, this is exactly what he wants. We can't go to the police, not now. He's made sure of that. He's just out there and he's watching us and waiting. What are you waiting for? Huh? What are you waiting for? All right, that brings us to the end of our episode. Thanks so much for joining us on this journey, fellow travelers. If you like what you hear, please leave us a rating and review wherever you can, because it helps more people find the show and it makes us all tingly inside. You can find us on Instagram at pleasers and punishers and on Bluesky at PleasersPunishers. You can also email us at pleasers punishers podcast at gmail dot com. You know where to find me and all my stuff. I'm not gonna go through it again. Caitlin, where can you be found? I can be found at Caitlin of the North on Threads and Instagram, Cat of the North on Letterboxd, and I just keep popping up on people under the scares, ⁓ Patreon, o Buffy Watchalong, fuck my hellmouth. Amanda. I can be found on Blue Sky and Instagram at Amanda Jane Stern. I am Witchy Wanderer on Letterboxd. You can also hear me podcasting on Don't Be Crazy and newly Murder Made Fiction. Yes. Recording my first episode tomorrow, which will no longer be tomorrow by the time this comes out. But that's why I've read everything about Leopold and Loop. And Peaches, thank you again so much for joining us. This was I I I feel like I could not have asked for a better episode for you to join us. And I had so much fun with you and Michael when I talked with y'all about Chopping Mall. So tell people tell people where they can find you and all of your various things. Well, I'm on all the social media stuff except for X, which I got off of for obvious reasons, but it has led me to confront the reality that there might be a day where I just leave all social media. So I've been beefing. Up PeachesCrist.com. I've been investing a ton of time in it, keeping it up to date after years of neglect. So I'm really pushing PeachesChrist.com as the place to find me. Excellent. And as I said at the top of the episode, and just mentioned, you are the co-host of Midnight Mass, the podcast with Michael Verati. And how how often do you put out episodes? ⁓ we are bi-weekly. So bi-weekly. Okay. We started as a weekly and then it had to take breaks too often to kind of keep up with things, so we just decided to go bi weekly. You're both very busy people. I totally understand. How often does your show come out? ⁓ we're we're weekly weekly. Damn. We're starting season two in July. We are going to be switching to video because everyone seems to be doing that. And we are also potentially launching a Patreon. So we will be making that money a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're powerful. We gotta find ways to make that money. Yep. Mm-hmm. Thank you again so much for being here with us. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And next week's episode, in case you haven't guessed, is going to be on Hellraiser three Hell on Earth, directed by Anthony Hiccox, who made one of my favorite ridiculous eighties horror movies, Wax Work. I love that movie. Right? It's so good. I love that movie. ⁓ my God. Okay, well if you cover it on Midnight Mass, I'm coming back for that. That's a deal. I'm adding it to the list. Talk to Michael Umbley's guy. I have been trying to come on Midnight Mass for Mass. Okay, Caitlin. We all love this. I mean, I obviously. Hey, Caitlin and Amanda, the best way to get on, because we are like like May said, very busy. Send us a list of your obsessed cult movies, you know, and then we'd send him but I can email I have your email now. I can email Send it to me. Okay. Right. Because you you show up when people don't like Ephraim. That's right. That's right. And the best part is I'm jumping off this ⁓ to jump on a midnight mass recording. And I cannot wait to confront Michael with this news. Yeah, we had we had Michael on here before Amanda joined. ⁓ I'm gonna say Michael, but they dragged you. ⁓ my goodness. Michael Verratti, known asshole. Just kidding. We love you, Michael. Michael, literally one of the sweetest people I've ever interacted with. Alright, well, until next week, do some aftercare, clean your toys, set healthy boundaries, and be sure to put on some leather, grab your chains and hooks, engage in some bloodletting, and see what comes out.
ÜBER DIESE EPISODE
Get ready for The Titty Trinity as we’re joined by drag queen extraordinaire Peaches Christ to talk giant hell penises, implied sapphic connections, and the queen of all wicked stepmothers.
Plus a wealth of trivia, diabolical tangents, advice for quality drag queen fake boobs, and more! So hold on to your skin-suit and open the box, because we’re going to hell!
Find us online:
https://www.instagram.com/pleasersandpunishers
https://bsky.app/profile/pleaserspunishers.bsky.social
pleaserspunisherspodcast@gmail.com
Find Peaches online:
https://peacheschrist.com/
Art by The Haunted David
Music by Everson Poe
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