The Hormonal Accelerant: How Midlife Brings Patterns to the Surface with Dana Bowman

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Midlife, A DHD can be scary.
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But it doesn't have to be.
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Here on paranormal, we are demystifying neurodivergence and perimenopause.
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Plus, with candid conversations and advice from experts, join me for a no holds barred exploration of what it means to be neurodivergent at midlife.
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Let's redefine normal together.
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I'm Steph Springer, and this is paranormal.
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Welcome back to the Paranormal Podcast.
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on today's episode, I am speaking with Dana Bowman.
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We're talking about addiction.
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We're talking about recovery.
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Dana explains process addiction to me and talks about what happened when she hit Perry and menopause, and.
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How this stage of our life hormonally can serve as almost an accelerant for whatever other issues are going on underneath the surface.
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Dana is the author of three books, humble Pie, addiction Recovery and Dessert.
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Was published in November of 2025 by Bloomsbury Press.
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Her two Memoirs Bottled A Mom's Guide to Early Recovery and How to Be Perfect Like Me, were both published by Central Recovery Press.
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Bottled was selected as a Kansas notable book in 2018.
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A TEDx speaker writer for Psychology Today, an occasional standup comedian Dana shares about beating, shame, kicking addictions, and how going Gray changed her life.
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Dana has collected numerous awards for her humorous writing, and she earned the moniker, the Irma Bombeck of Alcoholics from her first publisher.
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A descriptor she is very proud to carry.
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Her goal is to provide hope along with a good laugh and a good story to help heal the addict within all of us.
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So dig in for a raw, honest conversation about perimenopause, menopause, addiction, and how to thrive in this stage of life.
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Welcome to the podcast Dana.
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thank you so much for having me on the show.
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I really appreciate this.
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I always love a good podcast and yours is one of the best in terms of talking about menopausal topics and all of that fun stuff.
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I am Dana Bowman.
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I'm an author and a teacher.
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Um, and I.
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Speak about and write about all sorts of topics.
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But the real, um, gist for me was way back in 2018, which was about four years after I got sober, I wrote a book called Bottled and, and it's a book about.
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Getting sober while you have little kids.
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So, uh, some people would say in terms of mom hood and, uh, especially with wine culture and all of that, that, that's just impossible.
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Um, but I had to do it for me, for my journey, and then I ended up writing a book about it.
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Um, and then I have another book that came out after that about a relapse that occurred called How to Be Perfect Like Me.
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Um, both of those are, well, you know, regarded in the recovery circles, but.
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Strangely enough, I got older, you know, time passed, and as I was going into, uh, COVID and those wonderful, that wonderful foray into COVID and the isolation, the awfulness of that, um, I actually started experiencing what I didn't know at the time was, perimenopausal symptoms.
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I didn't go to the doctor for it because I was avoiding the doctor, like everyone.
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And, uh.
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I went into this deep dark hole of all these horrible symptoms that kept happening that I didn't understand.
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Um, they started hitting up against my recovery and my, and my sober journey.
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And all of that was just quite a challenge and, and quite a walk.
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Um, and because of that, it took some time.
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I.
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Joke this, I mean, this book is the one that I'm most proud of.
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It took me six years to write, so it was definitely a journey.
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Um, that's what Humble Pie is the result of, and the big long title for Humble Pie is, um, humble Pie, sober Menopause, sugar Addiction, and the Sweetness of Recovery, which kind of describes kind of what, what I was up against and what I am up against, so,
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I love the subtitle.
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I think it, it's, yeah, it says a lot.
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And
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yes.
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I, okay.
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I'm taking this about
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a lot,
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I'm sure.
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And I'm, I'm taking this all in.
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So, okay.
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So to begin, so you had little kids when you first Yes.
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Stopped drinking?
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Yes.
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The whole deal was, um, with bottled, I, uh, grew up in a home in recovery.
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My dad got sober when I was just about two or three years old.
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I have alcoholism all throughout my family.
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And of course, and this is just the really quick, I'm giving you like the quick background.
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So this is like the liner notes and, uh.
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I just kept thinking I was too smart for that.
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I, I was an a plus perfectionistic kid, which turned into an A plus perfectionistic, totally messed up codependent young adult.
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Um, and because of those tendencies, I just thought I could outsmart, um, any sort of addicted profile and any sort of addicted behavior.
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Come to find out I wasn't smart enough for it.
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I, I actually didn't really, there's a chapter in bottle called I didn't Dance on tables.
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Um, I wasn't like a problematic blackout party girl by any means.
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In fact, my story was pretty much I drank, if I drank, um, it was by myself.
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I didn't want anyone to see, like me out of control.
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I wanted to have a very perfectionistic.
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Just happy little boxed up life, everything tidy, right.
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Um, and I kept that going and wore a lot of masks.
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I was a teacher, a high school English teacher for many years and I was really good at it.
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I will just say that right now.
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I, I will come out and say that everything on the outside looked pretty darn, um, perfect.
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And.
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Do you remember like watching those acts with the people that would spin the plates like that, that old fashioned act where they'd spin the plates?
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I sure that was me.
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I sure do.
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Yep.
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Okay.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yep.
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Spinning the plates and I was keeping those plates spinning for a long time.
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And then what happened is I got married kind of later in life.
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My husband and I joked, we got married at like 36 and 37, so we're like nearly dead.
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We always.
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Joke that we were like with our walkers walking down the aisle, the geriatric
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marriage, like they called the
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geriatric.
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Yes.
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The geriatric marriage and yeah.
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Great.
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Congratulations.
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Mm-hmm.
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We made it, you know, and, um, I figured pretty much that, um, from marriage and there on, we moved, I started teaching at another high school that everything was just bliss.
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Um, but because of the stress of that, my drinking was kind of going up.
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And, uh, then I had kids and kids, uh, if you didn't know, um, it's in their contract that they are not going to like fit into your perfect little life and keep everything tidy.
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Yep.
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Um, and so they kind of blew me out of the water in terms of like motherhood and the isolation of that.
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I quit my teaching job.
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I was home.
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Um.
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And I just got very, very depressed.
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I had postpartum with both kids.
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Um, but actually when I look back, I, I kind of wonder, was it postpartum or was it just alcoholic tendencies, like coming to the surface?
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Well, you know, it's interesting.
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You, you talk about like the first, like you got sober after having kids and had some struggles right.
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Around perimenopause.
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These things aren't an accident.
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I mean, we talk a lot about a DH, adhd.
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On this podcast and how many women are diagnosed with A DHD either after having kids or during perimenopause, because when hormonally, the wheels come off the wagon, anything else that's bubbling under the surface is suddenly going to become unmanageable.
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It's almost like a catalyst.
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Well, I'll show up.
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Yeah, it'll show up.
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And I, I always felt like, um, it's a catalyst.
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Exactly.
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Um, I don't want people to think that I'm like blaming my children for, you know, what happened to no.
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'cause it certainly wasn't on them, but they just, they just kinda, um, scratched the surface and opened up the wound that was already kind of festering there.
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And my, as soon as I was done breastfeeding and all of that, my drinking just went off the charts.
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It was really scary.
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And within about two years, I was hiding.
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You know, vodka in my upstairs closet and, and really was off the charts an alcoholic, full on, and, and then went into recovery and got sober.
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Um, all of that to say, I, I wrote two books about that.
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And then I talked about, you know, the whole journey with that.
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And this is what happens sometimes.
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Um, alcoholism is really tricky and is any addiction is really tricky because it will constantly tell you that you don't have it.
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Um, so for example, if you got cancer and you were really sick from cancer, cancer would not keep trying to tell you that you didn't have cancer.
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Um, you would know it, you'd have the diagnosis, you know, the doctors would be treating you, et cetera.
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But with addiction, uh, addiction just messes with your mind in the sense that you're just constantly playing this game of, no, I'm fine.
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Everything's.
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Okay.
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I've been sober now for so many years like that, that was me when COVID happened.
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Right.
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And, and once again, um, and this is kind of what I focus on in the book is that recovery change and, and life changes.
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Like you said, when we, when we have the PerMon menopausal symptoms and things like that, it, it's a symptom and then it just unfolds and, and reveals new stuff underneath.
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That we have to start dealing with.
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That's a perfect way to describe it.
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It was tough.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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That these big transitional moments for women that are both like significant in terms of where we are in life, but also hormonally, like, I think we cannot underestimate how bound we are to our hormonal fluctuations and cycles.
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And, and reveal is really the perfect word, right?
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Because it, it does, it makes it impossible to hide things anymore.
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You just simply can't.
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It goes back to identity and I just kept, I kept writing and thinking about that.
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My identity when I first got sober, the identity thing was all about the new mom.
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Being a new mom, being a perfect new mom, like, you know, making the organic homemade, uh, pureed vegetables for their, you know, and making sure they never had sugar and making sure they were always alive and like, you know, it was just so.
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Much about the perfect mom.
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And then as soon as menopause happened, I mean, and then there was this lull in between there where you're just trucking along and you're a mom.
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And I, I kind of got comfortable in my recovery and I kind of got comfortable with my life and then menopause happened and it just shook everything up.
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It, I went gray.
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I, that was a choice.
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By the way, and I, I allowed my hair to, to go gray.
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I ended up doing a TED Talk about it, which was crazy'cause I think I'm the only TED talk out there.
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It was a TEDx talk and it was about going gray and my identity as a woman and what that did to my identity.
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It was crazy and I loved how amazing love.
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I loved that.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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I did it because it was actually pretty well received and a lot of women responded.
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Were like the whole going gray thing.
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Um, oh, we'll
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link to that in the show notes for sure.
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Yeah.
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It was fun.
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It was a, it was a crazy thing, but it was fun.
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Um, and going gray, getting older, starting to wrinkle, starting to like, not think of yourself as this young, sexy thing anymore.
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And, and you're, you can kind of get stuck in some really big, um.
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I mean, I'm sure every woman can relate.
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The whole getting older process for women is hard.
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Like we're supposed to be defy age.
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Like what, what, what do we hear about on every commercial in terms of like a facial moisturizer?
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You know, you have to defy age, you have to beat it.
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You have to make sure you're still young and pretty if you're gonna get irrelevant older, do it pretty, you know, whatever you try to do.
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So I had that hitting me.
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And then my recovery also was like.
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I had become, perhaps, I don't wanna say apathetic about my recovery, but it had become comfortable.
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And then as I was going into these menopausal symptoms, one of my biggest ones was anxiety in middle of the night.
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Mm-hmm.
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Gasping for air, not able to breathe.
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Um.
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Doom, like this whole, uh, like three in the morning, um, I would be swept with these horrible feelings of I'm gonna die.
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I mean, it was just off the charts and I'd never had panic attacks or anxiety like that before, and I could remember getting up.
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And walking down our hall and at the end of our hall there's a bathroom and it looks out to this, there's a church right across from the back of our house and there's a little stained glass window of an angel.
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And I would just stare at that angel and be like, what is happening?
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I want to die, or I feel like I'm gonna die.
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Mm-hmm.
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And when I was drinking.
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I used to, and the babies were up in the middle of the night or whatever.
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I used to take those babies and I would walk'em down the hall and I would stare out at that angel.
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And it was like the exact same feelings were happening, the anxiousness, the lack of sleep, the sweat, um, all of the aches and pains that were coming back.
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And I was like, I feel like I'm drinking again.
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I feel like this is like a shame hangover happening.
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Like,
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oh wow.
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It's, it's bringing up a lot of the same.
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Literally physical feelings, physical bodily feelings, but also a lot of the anxiousness and depression that I dealt with when I was in my last days of drinking and my early days of sobriety too.
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It was mm-hmm.
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It, it just brought it all back and it was the first time since, I don't know, since early recovery or mid mid recovery when I had had that thought.
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You know, what would solve this is you could just have a glass of wine.
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And I hadn't had those thoughts in ages in years, really.
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Um, like I said, I got sober in 2014.
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And I actually got sober in 2011 and was sober for three years and then relapsed.
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That's what my second book is about.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then I sober.
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Sober from 2014 on, so it's been some time.
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Right.
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And to have that thought again, it was so, I know I wasn't gonna do it.
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I knew in my head I'm not, I'm not, you know, one day at a time I'm not gonna drink again.
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But all of that addicted, um.
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Tricky, slick sticky behavior and thoughts was coming back and it hit me like a truck and I was really, I was really floundering for a while, and because of that, I started participating in what I, what is called process addictions, which are.
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Addictions that are a process as opposed to being addicted to a physical, um, thing like alcohol or drugs.
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I started participating in like scrolling endlessly, right?
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Um, eating endlessly.
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That's a process, you know?
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Um, right.
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The gambling.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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All of that and it, it just went off the charts.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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That makes sense.
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I hadn't heard that term before.
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The process addiction.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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And is that where the, the sugar addiction in your Yes.
00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:22.245
In your subtitle came into play?
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Yes.
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I actually go through a lot of processes, addictions in my book, like risk taking, gambling.
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I didn't gamble, but I gambled with other things and, and talked about that as well.
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But the main one for me was food.
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And I, I sort of went off the charts in terms of eating sugar addiction, gained a lot of weight, did all that, um.
00:15:43.424 --> 00:15:53.865
And I found myself, like one of the, one of the stories I tell, which is funny to me now, but was really humiliating at the time, was that I was binging on food.
00:15:53.955 --> 00:15:56.715
Um, I wasn't binging and purging, but I was just binging out.
00:15:56.715 --> 00:16:00.434
And then like the next day I would exercise like crazy and do all of that.
00:16:00.825 --> 00:16:01.365
Um.
00:16:01.794 --> 00:16:21.745
And kind of, that was another process addiction where I was like madly exercising to try to deal with the fact that I was binging at night and I had been eating a bunch of Reese's peanut butter cups and there were wrappers literally that I shoved under my mattress, which'cause I didn't want anybody to know and it was embarrassing and I felt like an idiot.
00:16:22.075 --> 00:16:30.684
And then my sweet son found them and just'cause he was, I had asked him to vacuum or something and he came down the hall and he was looking at me with this.
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:37.860
Quizzical expression and had in his hand a bunch of rappers, and it's kind of silly.
00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:41.639
And he just looked at me and he goes, you owe me a bunch of Reese's.
00:16:42.149 --> 00:16:44.519
I was like, I, yeah.
00:16:44.789 --> 00:16:48.509
Um, I said to him out loud, which I was proud of.
00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:51.480
I said, mom's got kind of a problem with sugar right now.
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.590
And that was the first time I said it out loud to someone.
00:16:56.129 --> 00:17:06.900
Granted, I was saying it to my young son, which I mean, I don't know how much of that he really processed, but, um, to say it out loud in that moment was embarrassing.
00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:13.740
But also I had a moment where I, I thought to myself, you just said that out loud, like you just finally.
00:17:14.325 --> 00:17:26.924
Came forth, and that's what helped me with my initial sobriety was that I finally, after all of this horrific addicted alcoholic drinking, I finally had my lowest point.
00:17:26.924 --> 00:17:32.414
And in my moment of surrender, I called my husband and said, I can't, I can't quit.
00:17:32.714 --> 00:17:34.934
And said the words out loud, you know what I mean?
00:17:34.994 --> 00:17:35.924
Finally got it out.
00:17:36.884 --> 00:17:39.075
Something kind of flipped in that moment.
00:17:39.075 --> 00:17:47.115
A switch was flipped and I said, I've gotta start squaring up with sugar and they, I need to like understand what's happening to me right now.
00:17:47.505 --> 00:17:49.515
And that's when I started thinking about it all.
00:17:49.964 --> 00:17:50.234
Okay.
00:17:50.325 --> 00:17:53.055
What you said, like, not I've gotta stop eating.
00:17:53.115 --> 00:17:55.484
I have to understand what's happening to me.
00:17:55.484 --> 00:17:55.785
Right.
00:17:56.035 --> 00:18:00.474
That is such a different paradigm than, than a shame paradigm.
00:18:00.474 --> 00:18:00.535
Yeah.
00:18:00.744 --> 00:18:02.305
Like, oh, I'm, I'm gaining weight.
00:18:02.305 --> 00:18:03.174
This isn't healthy.
00:18:03.174 --> 00:18:04.404
I'm, I have to stop this.
00:18:04.404 --> 00:18:04.704
It's gonna be
00:18:04.704 --> 00:18:06.295
all carrots from here on.
00:18:06.295 --> 00:18:06.384
You
00:18:06.384 --> 00:18:10.644
know, like, yeah, no, I need to figure out, I need to understand myself and
00:18:10.884 --> 00:18:11.095
yeah.
00:18:11.154 --> 00:18:13.375
I think at midlife that is.
00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:15.839
I think we don't do that often enough.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.809
I think we're critical of our own behaviors and habits.
00:18:18.809 --> 00:18:25.380
I think we think about where we should be, what we need to be doing, what's on our list, what we've failed at,
00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:28.799
what's on, what's on the list, and let's get a list going.
00:18:28.890 --> 00:18:29.515
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:18:29.775 --> 00:18:30.154
But not.
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.049
But not, I want to figure out what's happening inside me.
00:18:34.349 --> 00:18:35.099
Exactly.
00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:43.230
You must have done so much work to get to that point where that was the, that was what you needed to solve was I need to understand myself and my system.
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:43.319
Yeah.
00:18:43.950 --> 00:18:45.960
And it took me a long time even after that.
00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:51.299
'cause I am a real, like, as I talked about my perfectionist qualities, um.
00:18:51.414 --> 00:18:54.744
Prior to this, there had been lots of times where I'm like, that's it.
00:18:54.775 --> 00:18:56.694
I'm gonna get rid of all the chocolate and the sugar.
00:18:56.694 --> 00:19:01.615
And I would throw it all out and I'll be like, it's going to be carrots and like kale soup for a whole week.
00:19:01.615 --> 00:19:05.335
And I would do those over the top, which is exactly what I did with the alcohol.
00:19:05.335 --> 00:19:06.595
Like, I did the same things.
00:19:06.595 --> 00:19:09.025
I'd throw out the alcohol and I'd be like, I'm not gonna drink.
00:19:09.055 --> 00:19:13.855
And then of course I would fall apart and, and, you know, end up bing out again.
00:19:13.914 --> 00:19:19.734
And the, when I finally kind of decided that it, it wasn't like I had this huge.
00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:22.359
Moment where I'm like, okay, like this is it.
00:19:22.509 --> 00:19:24.519
It just kind of came to me naturally.
00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:32.259
I think my body was exhausted and had gone through so many ups and downs of trying to stop and then, you know, benching out again.
00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:42.369
And then the shame and the secrecy where my body and I just sort of decided to hang out with each other and I was, I told myself.
00:19:42.765 --> 00:19:44.714
If you're gonna binge out, that's fine.
00:19:44.835 --> 00:19:51.494
Let's just do it and let's let people know and let's explain what's going on and just do it.
00:19:51.555 --> 00:19:53.474
And if you, if you have to, fine.
00:19:53.474 --> 00:19:58.154
And we're gonna try to see what, you know, what's going on with your head.
00:19:58.154 --> 00:20:03.920
And I started researching and I started writing about it and, um, kind of went on a journey in that.
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:11.450
That took me a long time because menopausal stuff is not explained very well in the scientific community.
00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:21.500
And a lot of the information that's out there that I was trying to find, I mean, there are books and I, and I'm really grateful for all of them and I have some great ones, but it took a while, like.
00:20:21.630 --> 00:20:24.869
And even like trying to talk to my doctor was just a joke.
00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:25.855
I hate to say it, but
00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:29.579
this is no, this is, this has come up time and time again on this podcast.
00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:29.640
Yeah.
00:20:29.670 --> 00:20:33.329
That, that we are the ones, we are doing the research.
00:20:33.390 --> 00:20:33.509
Yeah.
00:20:33.869 --> 00:20:34.109
It's on us.
00:20:34.109 --> 00:20:35.940
We're, we're asking for the scripts.
00:20:35.970 --> 00:20:40.769
We are like, we're finding other people who can give us a script of say this to your doctor.
00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.940
We're we are passing the word around between our friends.
00:20:45.089 --> 00:20:46.799
No one has prepared us for this.
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:48.089
No one's talked about it.
00:20:48.424 --> 00:20:54.275
Our doctors aren't bringing it up to us in our thirties and in our forties and saying, okay, be prepared for this.
00:20:54.275 --> 00:20:58.924
And one of my last guests, and I said, yeah, like imagine if this was menopause.
00:20:59.224 --> 00:20:59.585
Yes.
00:20:59.914 --> 00:21:01.265
And, and, and how?
00:21:01.295 --> 00:21:05.015
Like, oh my God, you better believe we'd all be prepared for menopause.
00:21:05.015 --> 00:21:05.789
There would be
00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:06.109
a booklet.
00:21:07.140 --> 00:21:09.244
There'd be a flyer or something.
00:21:09.575 --> 00:21:11.315
There be some preparation.
00:21:11.375 --> 00:21:11.884
Yeah.
00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:13.789
Now we have to know the secret knock.
00:21:13.819 --> 00:21:19.549
We have to know, we have to be ready to make understanding our bodies and our brains at this stage of life.
00:21:19.579 --> 00:21:21.140
It has to be our full-time job.
00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.579
Forget the fact that we also have jobs and families and homes.
00:21:25.730 --> 00:21:27.799
Now you're also your own researcher,
00:21:27.849 --> 00:21:35.049
yeah, it's very frustrating and it's just darn right rude because like I, you get so much layered on you already as a woman.
00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:40.269
And then I remember just kind of yelling at my husband, like, I have enough to do.
00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:42.549
I don't have time to try to figure this out.
00:21:42.549 --> 00:21:44.349
Like he's, because he was the ones like.
00:21:44.525 --> 00:21:45.694
You need to figure this out.
00:21:45.694 --> 00:21:46.744
And I'm like, why?
00:21:46.924 --> 00:21:48.394
It's a medical thing, right?
00:21:48.394 --> 00:21:51.724
Like why can't, I was never told about menopause.
00:21:51.724 --> 00:21:53.825
I was never, it was never explained to me.
00:21:53.825 --> 00:21:55.025
I was never warned.
00:21:55.025 --> 00:21:58.744
I was never given, you know, and I had to look all that up myself.
00:21:58.744 --> 00:22:00.005
I had to do all the reading.
00:22:00.005 --> 00:22:02.900
And then of course there's like incorrect information out there, right?
00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:08.285
And so it was very frustrating'cause I felt like I have enough to do in my damn life.
00:22:08.285 --> 00:22:11.285
I don't need another thing to do on top of everything else.
00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:12.960
Exactly it.
00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:17.789
And then I'll, I'll, you know, take to my personal doctor chat, GPT and be like,
00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:18.150
yes,
00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:20.339
you know, blah, blah, blah, blah is happening.
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:21.089
What could that be?
00:22:21.089 --> 00:22:23.130
And it's sort of like, um.
00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:28.359
Like, well, you might need more estrogen or you might have too much estrogen.
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:29.950
I'm like, well, that's just great.
00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:31.029
Terrific.
00:22:31.029 --> 00:22:31.420
Not helpful.
00:22:31.420 --> 00:22:31.690
Thank you.
00:22:31.690 --> 00:22:33.250
So, no, I mean, and that's the thing.
00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:39.069
It's like there aren't easy answers and we aren't able to monitor our hormones.
00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:41.075
24 7 there, it's, there's not like a.
00:22:41.450 --> 00:22:43.549
I mean, and everyone's different.
00:22:43.549 --> 00:22:57.380
Everyone has different chemistry and I mean, the fact is there just has not been research and money and science going into understanding what happens to women at this stage of our life because frankly, it's not important societally.
00:22:58.089 --> 00:23:01.059
Um, not, yeah, I do think Gen X women are changing that.
00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:02.619
I think we are demanding.
00:23:02.950 --> 00:23:08.890
I mean, and when you look around, it's like there are a lot of podcasters and like there are doctors on Instagram.
00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:09.835
There are like, mm-hmm.
00:23:10.809 --> 00:23:12.940
Now it's a little easier to find.
00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:17.079
It's like, oh, follow these three people and subscribe to their newsletters.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:17.410
Right.
00:23:17.414 --> 00:23:17.755
Uhhuh,
00:23:18.015 --> 00:23:18.595
you get three.
00:23:18.625 --> 00:23:18.914
Yeah.
00:23:18.914 --> 00:23:19.275
Mm-hmm.
00:23:19.375 --> 00:23:21.309
And, and, and those are great.
00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:26.470
And I'm really grateful that it's changing, but I have to admit, like it was the same.
00:23:26.849 --> 00:23:31.019
I keep coming up with like the similarities between when I got sober and when this happened.
00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:31.079
Yeah.
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:32.880
Because it was the same thing.
00:23:33.029 --> 00:23:44.250
I would go to my doctors and I finally fessed up and said, look, I'm sober now, um, and I'm, and this, and this is happening, or I'm feeling this or should I be taking this medication?
00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:48.359
And they treated me, first of all with, it was.
00:23:48.845 --> 00:23:51.785
Kind of shaming that, the, the way they treated me.
00:23:51.785 --> 00:23:59.585
And it was also really clear that the doctor that I had at least was not, did not understand sobriety or recovery at all.
00:23:59.585 --> 00:24:01.625
And so just didn't really have anything to tell me.
00:24:01.894 --> 00:24:05.674
Um, and I felt sort of lost, like, why did I even tell him?
00:24:06.025 --> 00:24:06.805
That I was sober.
00:24:06.805 --> 00:24:11.454
It didn't really change anything in terms of what's going on with me, but I feel like I'm going crazy.
00:24:11.815 --> 00:24:14.964
Um, and then the same thing happened when I, when I spent a puzzle.
00:24:14.964 --> 00:24:16.164
I'm like, what's going on with this?
00:24:16.164 --> 00:24:20.755
Of course, I also shot myself in the foot because, because of my symptoms.
00:24:20.825 --> 00:24:28.174
Being during COVID and avoiding my doctor for like a year, I came in there finally and was like, look, I'm having these crazy hot sweats.
00:24:28.174 --> 00:24:30.005
I'm waking up gasping for air.
00:24:30.005 --> 00:24:36.724
My main thing was like the breathing, my throat would close up and I couldn't breathe, um, which is a symptom of menopause.
00:24:36.724 --> 00:24:49.565
I found out and I thought I was like having, I, I didn't know what was going on and they had absolutely no help for me in terms of, um, what to do or they wanted to give me anti-anxiety medication, which.
00:24:50.089 --> 00:24:56.269
I understand like it's an anxiety thing, but the word menopause was never even mentioned until about my first appointment.
00:24:57.019 --> 00:24:59.240
So you felt like you couldn't breathe?
00:24:59.240 --> 00:24:59.329
Yes.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.000
And And that's something that actually happens in menopause.
00:25:02.089 --> 00:25:03.170
I didn't know that.
00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:03.529
Yeah.
00:25:03.529 --> 00:25:04.549
It's another symptom.
00:25:04.579 --> 00:25:13.789
It, it's one of those that's like in terms of the most prevalent symptoms you get the hot sweats, you get like everyone kind of jokes about menopause and talks about hot sweats.
00:25:13.789 --> 00:25:14.539
That's the thing.
00:25:14.539 --> 00:25:15.410
It's the trigger word.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:31.089
But for me, the middle of the night breathing issue where I would be gasping for air and I felt like I was choking and dying, it's, it's, um, it was a closing of my throat and it was happening in terms because of anxiety and also hormonal shifts in the middle of the night.
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:34.720
Um, and I was, I had to.
00:25:34.845 --> 00:25:40.605
Find out that myself, I had to do some research on my own, um, and figured it out.
00:25:40.605 --> 00:25:46.605
There isn't really anything I could do for it except take anxiety medication, um, which didn't really work for me.
00:25:46.634 --> 00:26:01.250
But the main thing that I found in terms of at least having the conversation is that the doctors kind of treated me like I was either making it up or I, um, was making too big of a deal out of it and that, oh my god.
00:26:01.789 --> 00:26:03.859
Yeah, it's the same with my sobriety.
00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:04.579
It was not,
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:06.559
well, aren't you precious about your breathing?
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:07.190
Yeah, I know.
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:08.960
Geez.
00:26:08.990 --> 00:26:10.190
You feel like you're dying.
00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:24.065
Well, okay, so and then that was the other part that I had a hard time with in terms of addicted mindset and being, um, a woman who's, you know, in recovery and is sober, they wanted to give me all these heavy, heavy, um, a lot of.
00:26:24.775 --> 00:26:31.045
S medications I don't really wanna touch because they're things that I could kind of get addicted to in terms of how they would make me feel.
00:26:31.045 --> 00:26:35.384
I was trying to explain that and um, we just were not communicating well.
00:26:35.384 --> 00:26:35.444
Yeah.
00:26:35.775 --> 00:26:35.865
Mm-hmm.
00:26:36.105 --> 00:26:42.075
Um, I have a better doctor now and that's kind of helped the conversation, but I still, every time I go in.
00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:45.009
I can see her trying and I get it.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:51.490
Doctors are overwhelmed and overloaded and I don't wanna really just throw her under the bus, but there would be the same conversation.
00:26:51.490 --> 00:26:52.480
She'd be looking through the chart.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.759
She's like, okay, so I see that.
00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:57.430
You don't want this medication for this.
00:26:57.490 --> 00:27:01.960
Um, and I'm like, yes, because I'm sober to have the same conversation again.
00:27:02.289 --> 00:27:08.140
Um, and it just felt a little bit diminishing in terms of what I was dealing with.
00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:08.559
So,
00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:08.950
mm-hmm.
00:27:09.309 --> 00:27:10.599
Fun times, right?
00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.809
Trying to get medical help in terms of this hormonal stuff.
00:27:13.809 --> 00:27:14.170
And
00:27:14.890 --> 00:27:17.769
so what, so what happened after that?
00:27:17.769 --> 00:27:20.769
And did you find, have you found help?
00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:22.779
Have you found relief and support?
00:27:23.125 --> 00:27:26.444
Well, one of the main things I found a therapist.
00:27:26.474 --> 00:27:27.194
Okay.
00:27:27.285 --> 00:27:28.664
And she was amazing.
00:27:28.664 --> 00:27:34.964
In fact, she is a, I can't remember the difference between the psychologist and this and the, she's the one that could administer medication.
00:27:34.964 --> 00:27:35.924
Psychiatrist
00:27:35.924 --> 00:27:36.494
can do med.
00:27:36.494 --> 00:27:36.585
Yes.
00:27:36.585 --> 00:27:36.974
Psychiatrist.
00:27:37.035 --> 00:27:37.545
Thank you.
00:27:38.095 --> 00:27:40.525
She, and I don't know how I happened upon her.
00:27:40.525 --> 00:27:49.464
It was kind of like a miraculous like event where I found, and I, I write about her in the book and I say Everyone should have a Kayla Wirick.
00:27:49.464 --> 00:27:51.144
Like, I love my doctor.
00:27:51.414 --> 00:27:54.954
Um, because she sat me down and I started explaining all of this.
00:27:55.144 --> 00:28:05.494
Stuff and I thought we were just gonna talk about mental stuff, but then she goes, you know, there's like a really great, I, I was on anti-depressants, which I have been on since I've been in my twenties.
00:28:05.825 --> 00:28:07.230
And she's like, there's a great, um.
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:11.009
And a depressant that's really helpful for menopausal women.
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.519
And then there's also a great sleep, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:15.720
That's great for menopausal.
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:29.549
It's like she knew the information and it was really a godsend that I found her because she was able to sit me down and say, okay, first of all, all this stuff is okay and normal, and what you're going through is not crazy and you're not making it up.
00:28:29.549 --> 00:28:34.289
So she validated me and then she was able to find, um, medications that are.
00:28:34.316 --> 00:28:38.516
Helpful for a woman who's going through that hormone shift, and that really helped.
00:28:38.516 --> 00:28:44.125
And first of, in terms of my sleep, in terms of my mental state and the anxiety went away.
00:28:44.425 --> 00:28:52.736
Um, and honestly, I kind of think just because I had someone who listened to me and knew what it was that I was going through that helped
00:28:52.945 --> 00:28:53.125
yes.
00:28:53.846 --> 00:29:02.965
I was so strung out on feeling alone and isolated, and then having my Kayla as I call her come along, um, was super helpful.
00:29:03.086 --> 00:29:03.536
So yeah.
00:29:03.536 --> 00:29:07.915
And then on the flip side, I started writing like crazy.
00:29:07.915 --> 00:29:12.836
And one of my things that I pushed for or talk about a lot is that we need an outlet.
00:29:13.615 --> 00:29:15.236
Um, we need to be creative.
00:29:15.236 --> 00:29:17.875
Like you have your podcasts, that's your outlet, right?
00:29:17.905 --> 00:29:23.365
That's your, that's your moment where you're like creating this to help others, but it's also helping you, I'm assuming.
00:29:23.726 --> 00:29:24.925
Yeah, that's what I had.
00:29:24.925 --> 00:29:28.226
And, and the writing, we need something.
00:29:28.226 --> 00:29:34.796
In January, I did a 12 week workshop with, for midlife women based on the Artist Way by Julia Cameron.
00:29:34.796 --> 00:29:35.006
See?
00:29:35.006 --> 00:29:35.395
That's
00:29:35.395 --> 00:29:36.236
exactly,
00:29:36.445 --> 00:29:36.746
yep.
00:29:36.746 --> 00:29:38.155
And it's be, it was like.
00:29:38.566 --> 00:29:41.476
It's, it's not just for real artists.
00:29:41.476 --> 00:29:42.405
You don't have to be a,
00:29:42.465 --> 00:29:42.615
I
00:29:42.615 --> 00:29:42.915
know.
00:29:42.915 --> 00:29:43.246
A painter.
00:29:43.455 --> 00:29:43.665
Yes.
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:44.625
Or a writer.
00:29:44.746 --> 00:29:45.766
Or a sculptor.
00:29:45.766 --> 00:29:47.026
Or a musician, exactly.
00:29:47.056 --> 00:29:51.736
But it's basically bringing you back into alignment with your own creative flow.
00:29:52.365 --> 00:29:53.355
We're all creative.
00:29:53.355 --> 00:29:54.256
We are all creative.
00:29:54.260 --> 00:29:54.441
All creative.
00:29:54.766 --> 00:29:55.036
Yes.
00:29:55.066 --> 00:29:55.306
Yeah.
00:29:55.385 --> 00:30:03.036
And I think that women, especially, we get to this age and things are shifting in terms of our bodies and our responsibilities and our brains.
00:30:03.246 --> 00:30:12.486
And if we don't have something that brings us a sense of creativity or play or connection with ourselves, we are gonna become disconnected.
00:30:12.576 --> 00:30:12.756
You
00:30:12.756 --> 00:30:12.935
know?
00:30:12.935 --> 00:30:13.776
Oh my gosh.
00:30:13.776 --> 00:30:14.316
You are preach.
00:30:14.316 --> 00:30:14.405
It's
00:30:14.405 --> 00:30:14.855
essential.
00:30:14.855 --> 00:30:15.935
The word.
00:30:15.941 --> 00:30:16.230
Mm-hmm.
00:30:16.391 --> 00:30:19.326
I, I write about that and I talk about it in, in the book.
00:30:19.326 --> 00:30:21.546
And I say, if we're not in line with something like.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:32.711
What happened for me during this period was I started to experience, for the first time in my life, I started to experience boredom because I wasn't as interested in the things that I used to love.
00:30:32.711 --> 00:30:37.330
And it was like my shifting hormones were taking joy away from me and kind of sucking the joy.
00:30:37.330 --> 00:30:42.371
I'm like, I used to love to read what's going on, like I'm not Yes, getting the same enjoyment out of it.
00:30:42.671 --> 00:30:48.760
Um, so for me, writing has always been the thing and I started writing again and that really like.
00:30:48.816 --> 00:30:58.596
It was sort of like, um, just allowed me to get this weird analogy, but it felt like my body just got excited and, and, and alive again.
00:30:58.596 --> 00:30:59.736
I got juicy again.
00:30:59.736 --> 00:31:02.796
I got interested in things again, and it really helped.
00:31:02.796 --> 00:31:15.066
And I, I say it like whenever I bring up creativity, I was talking to my dad who's like an ex farmer and I mean, he's just a business guy and he was like, well, I'm not creative, like, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:31:15.066 --> 00:31:17.586
And I said, dad, you used to take the lawnmower.
00:31:17.586 --> 00:31:18.546
They have a lawnmower.
00:31:18.631 --> 00:31:32.221
From like 1995 in their garage and he would go out there and tinker with it and fix it miraculously, like bring that thing back to life and all of those little things that you had judged and fixed, like that's creativity right there, right?
00:31:32.221 --> 00:31:34.201
Like it's amazing what.
00:31:34.855 --> 00:31:38.365
We write ourselves off if we're not out there sculpting something.
00:31:38.365 --> 00:31:38.576
Right?
00:31:38.875 --> 00:31:40.885
Cooking can be creative, right?
00:31:40.885 --> 00:31:40.945
Yeah.
00:31:41.336 --> 00:31:44.816
Like creating a playlist for yourself can be creative,
00:31:45.476 --> 00:31:50.875
you know, or, or the meals that you make or, you know, even just going on a walk and connecting with nature.
00:31:50.875 --> 00:31:56.336
Like all of that is stuff that really does help keep our soul aligned with our body.
00:31:56.770 --> 00:31:59.351
The physical with the absolutely spiritual and the mental.
00:31:59.351 --> 00:32:00.790
I wanna take your thing.
00:32:01.270 --> 00:32:02.050
Oh my gosh, you should.
00:32:02.050 --> 00:32:03.580
It was, it was, yeah.
00:32:03.580 --> 00:32:11.651
It starts January 12th and we, when it's 12 weeks and it was like, I did the artist's way for the first time, like a year ago.
00:32:12.010 --> 00:32:12.461
Um.
00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:18.151
But doing it in a group and with midlife women, so it's like the lens is just different.
00:32:18.691 --> 00:32:19.316
Oh, I love that.
00:32:19.316 --> 00:32:20.280
And I, it's my favorite.
00:32:20.280 --> 00:32:28.351
I've been doing writing workshops for like over a decade, and this is my favorite one I've ever taught because it wasn't about how to be a better writer.
00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:29.881
It wasn't craft based.
00:32:29.881 --> 00:32:31.996
It was, it's like, how do you unlock yourself?
00:32:32.461 --> 00:32:34.080
How do you come back to yourself?
00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:34.530
Right?
00:32:34.530 --> 00:32:34.915
Like, how do you,
00:32:35.101 --> 00:32:35.461
how do you align yourself?
00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:36.240
I always talk about
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:36.836
calibrate Yes.
00:32:36.836 --> 00:32:36.996
Alignment.
00:32:37.020 --> 00:32:37.111
Yes.
00:32:37.141 --> 00:32:37.411
How do we
00:32:37.411 --> 00:32:38.101
calibrate?
00:32:38.925 --> 00:32:39.145
Yes.
00:32:39.455 --> 00:32:40.066
Goosebump.
00:32:40.391 --> 00:32:41.050
Excited.
00:32:41.080 --> 00:32:46.840
No, it, it's, it was a juicy one and it was like, I feel like this is what we need at midlife is reminders.
00:32:46.990 --> 00:32:50.471
And like you said, something like almost coming back online in you.
00:32:50.471 --> 00:32:53.590
It's like things that had been dormant, started firing again.
00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:54.550
Oh,
00:32:54.550 --> 00:32:54.691
love my gosh.
00:32:54.691 --> 00:32:54.836
Love that.
00:32:54.971 --> 00:32:57.431
And maybe that's the way to keep us healthy.
00:32:58.080 --> 00:33:07.500
In a variety of context, whether we're talking about sobriety, whether we're talking about a process addiction, whether sugar or scrolling, which so many people
00:33:07.830 --> 00:33:08.310
Oh yeah.
00:33:08.461 --> 00:33:08.730
Have
00:33:09.631 --> 00:33:15.750
talk about, I still, and I still do it, I, I, I want to elaborate or, or let people know here that I'm not like this fixed person.
00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:16.080
Like
00:33:16.171 --> 00:33:16.471
right
00:33:16.530 --> 00:33:18.810
when I wrote the book, I was going through it.
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:19.361
Right.
00:33:19.361 --> 00:33:19.570
Yeah.
00:33:19.570 --> 00:33:24.040
And I still am, and there wasn't like some big huge, like I'm all fixed.
00:33:24.040 --> 00:33:25.151
I don't scroll anymore.
00:33:25.151 --> 00:33:26.441
I just scrolled this morning.
00:33:26.441 --> 00:33:31.540
Like I, I do it right, but it's not as bad and it's not as tied to shame.
00:33:31.540 --> 00:33:40.631
And there's so much more out there than these process addictions where we end up doing this stuff that we know we shouldn't, um, that I found.
00:33:40.705 --> 00:33:43.526
So that, I mean, it's been so helpful, but
00:33:43.526 --> 00:33:48.175
Well, but you got to the root of what was you, you got to the root of it rather than just like
00:33:48.685 --> 00:33:48.955
Yeah.
00:33:48.986 --> 00:33:56.695
Judging a behavior you were doing and, and I think we are all, we are all going to do the wrong thing for our bodies and our lives and our schedules.
00:33:56.695 --> 00:34:00.145
We are going to consciously overbook ourselves.
00:34:00.171 --> 00:34:00.391
Yes.
00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:03.056
And we're going to avoid going through the closet.
00:34:03.326 --> 00:34:08.876
And we're going to eat a shit load of cookies one night, and we're gonna scroll and we're gonna dissociate.
00:34:09.101 --> 00:34:14.471
Like we cannot live in perfect healthful alignment every moment of the day.
00:34:14.650 --> 00:34:16.601
But it's like, but how's your foundation?
00:34:16.601 --> 00:34:18.460
And I think that's the question, right?
00:34:18.610 --> 00:34:19.690
How's your foundation?
00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:19.960
Exactly.
00:34:19.990 --> 00:34:21.710
What is it built on exactly?
00:34:21.710 --> 00:34:24.460
Is it built on understanding yourself and and self love?
00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:26.920
Is it built on being in alignment?
00:34:27.221 --> 00:34:27.311
Mm-hmm.
00:34:27.340 --> 00:34:27.760
Um.
00:34:28.181 --> 00:34:28.780
You know, that's
00:34:28.780 --> 00:34:29.141
so true.
00:34:29.476 --> 00:34:33.101
And that's where, for me, that's where the addictive behaviors came from.
00:34:33.101 --> 00:34:38.891
Because I wasn't looking at myself, I wasn't allowing myself to really feel feelings.
00:34:38.891 --> 00:34:42.521
I wasn't allowing myself to really work on the foundation of Dana.
00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:48.820
Um, there was a lot of stuff from like my, just my childhood and my young adulthood that I didn't really wanna deal with.
00:34:49.070 --> 00:34:50.990
I didn't like to be, yeah, uncomfortable.
00:34:50.990 --> 00:34:53.210
I didn't like to deal with discomfort and pain.
00:34:53.661 --> 00:34:58.701
Um, and then because of that, and, and because I started out my life with this.
00:34:59.275 --> 00:35:06.206
Hardcore alcoholism, the addicted patterns kept happening with, with the food and the processes and all of that.
00:35:06.536 --> 00:35:13.525
But my theory, and this kind of sound kind of might kind of sound harsh, but it's not meant to be, is that we're all addicted to something.
00:35:13.525 --> 00:35:15.775
We all have addicted patterns in our lives.
00:35:16.166 --> 00:35:24.956
Um, and so when I finally got to a point where I could really accept that and look at data for who she is and try to work with her and.
00:35:25.561 --> 00:35:26.340
Forgive her.
00:35:26.371 --> 00:35:29.940
Like I just had to do a lot of grace with Dana.
00:35:30.271 --> 00:35:30.360
Mm-hmm.
00:35:31.081 --> 00:35:33.271
Um, no more black and white thinking.
00:35:33.271 --> 00:35:38.010
No more in terms of good, bad, like you've, it just took a lot of work.
00:35:38.610 --> 00:35:46.050
Um, but it really, really, it really helped and it resulted and I always feel like this is one of those moments of kismet where.
00:35:46.411 --> 00:35:49.081
Um, because of the work and because of the hard work.
00:35:49.110 --> 00:35:52.380
I have this book now and I wish I could hold it in my hands.
00:35:52.380 --> 00:35:54.900
I still haven't gotten the author's copies and I'm waiting.
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.101
I'm so anxious.
00:35:56.190 --> 00:36:01.891
But it's kind of like that baby that came out of all of that and Oh man, it's, it's such a blessing.
00:36:02.041 --> 00:36:02.400
Yeah.
00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:02.791
Yeah.
00:36:03.121 --> 00:36:03.840
Absolutely.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:11.460
No, I, I, I think that it is hard work, but I don't think there's any work that's more worthwhile than that.
00:36:11.490 --> 00:36:12.001
Like I.
00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:21.760
I feel like everyone should be in therapy, but I al but I really feel like perimenopausal and menopausal women like this is, it's not just because of our need.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:26.351
And this is something that I realized when I was doing my artist's way group with midlife women.
00:36:26.351 --> 00:36:38.021
I was like, oh, we'll use this lens of midlife womanhood because we have all the, the, the deck is stacked against a sandwich generation and hormones and we're all, you know, frazzled and overwhelmed and caregiving.
00:36:38.291 --> 00:36:38.621
Yeah.
00:36:38.621 --> 00:36:41.380
But what I didn't realize is like, but also.
00:36:41.635 --> 00:36:48.206
We are ready to step into this new level of, of wisdom and power.
00:36:48.206 --> 00:36:48.266
Yeah.
00:36:48.476 --> 00:37:02.335
Like we are, we're, this is a time, like it's worthy of our exploration to do that work, whether it's therapy or you know, or getting back in touch with our own creativity or working with a coach or like, this is a great time to do it.
00:37:02.516 --> 00:37:07.766
Not just because life is hard, but because we are all becoming more amazing at this stage of life.
00:37:07.766 --> 00:37:07.856
Yes.
00:37:08.275 --> 00:37:08.510
You know?
00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:08.670
Yes.
00:37:09.110 --> 00:37:10.340
There's all this potential.
00:37:10.340 --> 00:37:20.721
Like at one point when I was, when it was a dark time for me and I was really suffering and feeling like I was stuck, um, I felt like I was on a precipice, like a clip.
00:37:20.721 --> 00:37:22.760
I'm like, I am, I'm wiser.
00:37:23.001 --> 00:37:24.621
I'm older, I'm wiser.
00:37:24.621 --> 00:37:26.090
I have all this potential.
00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:31.371
And I didn't really, like, my brain didn't really come up with those words, but I felt like I was on a cliff.
00:37:31.581 --> 00:37:32.030
Okay.
00:37:32.210 --> 00:37:32.420
Yeah.
00:37:32.420 --> 00:37:34.911
And I was like, I need to learn like how to get.
00:37:36.206 --> 00:37:39.896
Across the clip, somehow there's gotta be some sort of impetus or push.
00:37:40.255 --> 00:37:42.445
Um, and I don't wanna be stuck anymore.
00:37:42.445 --> 00:37:49.885
I don't wanna be stuck in this zone of overeating, feeling sorry for myself dealing with all these hormones and feeling depressed because of it.
00:37:50.126 --> 00:37:51.416
And also invisible.
00:37:51.416 --> 00:37:54.291
It was really like, that's the, the TEDx tox.
00:37:54.291 --> 00:38:00.005
I, I ended up calling or talking about, there's a thing, a real thing called Invisible women's syndrome.
00:38:00.005 --> 00:38:05.916
And it, it, it occurs between 55 and 75 for women where they literally feel invisible.
00:38:06.275 --> 00:38:10.476
Um, and all of that was happening, but I was like, but I still have so much good to me.
00:38:10.476 --> 00:38:12.666
I have so much that I can do.
00:38:12.666 --> 00:38:13.956
I have so much potential.
00:38:13.956 --> 00:38:18.726
But it just felt like it was getting squashed and I had to find a way to.
00:38:19.101 --> 00:38:23.721
Un squash myself, which is really a technical term, but anyhow, um,
00:38:23.811 --> 00:38:24.831
I love that.
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.840
No more squashing.
00:38:26.931 --> 00:38:27.260
Yeah,
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.851
no, that's brilliant.
00:38:29.181 --> 00:38:32.181
Like what a, what an interesting way to frame that.
00:38:32.181 --> 00:38:36.650
Like playing small or just, just, just the stuckness.
00:38:36.681 --> 00:38:42.076
I think that happen and, and I do think that that's why I, I think Gen X women are.
00:38:42.501 --> 00:38:45.351
Are revolutionary in many ways because mm-hmm.
00:38:45.471 --> 00:38:52.581
It's not just about finding the right form of collagen or following the, the Meow Belly diet.
00:38:52.581 --> 00:38:53.360
It, it's, oh yeah.
00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:57.981
It's not about us refusing to age, it's, it's about us.
00:38:58.356 --> 00:39:01.115
Refusing to succumb to the fear of aging.
00:39:01.115 --> 00:39:01.206
Yes.
00:39:01.445 --> 00:39:02.916
Or invisibility.
00:39:02.916 --> 00:39:04.356
Or irrelevance.
00:39:04.356 --> 00:39:04.445
Yes.
00:39:04.476 --> 00:39:06.846
It's like we, we aren't going to do that.
00:39:06.846 --> 00:39:09.275
We are changing the narrative, I believe mm-hmm.
00:39:09.516 --> 00:39:18.760
About what midlife means, and I think we'll continue to do it into our sixties and seventies and eighties and, and, and I think that that's, I think that's new, you know?
00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:19.041
Yeah.
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:27.210
I have too much to say, you know, I just have too much to say to, to let it all be, um, invisible anymore.
00:39:27.481 --> 00:39:36.811
And I, I just spent the weekend with my parents and I was kind of watching my mom and I remember telling her about the stuff that's happening, the book that's coming out.
00:39:36.811 --> 00:39:38.971
You know, she's always so amazed.
00:39:38.971 --> 00:39:42.235
Spite the stuff that I do, like the TEDx thing took forever.
00:39:42.235 --> 00:39:44.065
They were like, they did not know what that was.
00:39:44.065 --> 00:39:45.806
And they were, they were like, what?
00:39:45.806 --> 00:39:46.856
You're talking to Ted?
00:39:46.856 --> 00:39:47.876
Like what's happening?
00:39:47.931 --> 00:39:48.371
Oh my God,
00:39:49.391 --> 00:39:49.971
that's amazing.
00:39:50.070 --> 00:39:53.126
So my mom always says stuff like, she, this is what she says.
00:39:53.231 --> 00:39:53.570
I'm just.
00:39:54.585 --> 00:39:56.925
And you weren't like nervous and you weren't scared.
00:39:56.925 --> 00:39:57.916
And I was like, yeah mom.
00:39:57.916 --> 00:39:58.786
I was terrified.
00:39:58.786 --> 00:40:00.135
Like, you have to memorize the whole thing.
00:40:00.135 --> 00:40:00.795
It's a lot.
00:40:01.186 --> 00:40:04.695
Um, and she goes, I just never could do the stuff that you do.
00:40:04.695 --> 00:40:08.056
And she has this look of almost resignation about it.
00:40:08.056 --> 00:40:12.166
And I know it's a different generation and it's different kind of look at things.
00:40:12.465 --> 00:40:20.266
Um, but it, it just felt small and I felt kind of bad for her'cause it, it just felt kind of small and I thought, I don't wanna be that.
00:40:20.326 --> 00:40:22.065
I don't wanna be small and I don't wanna.
00:40:22.311 --> 00:40:23.780
Disregard myself.
00:40:24.110 --> 00:40:24.681
Um, no.
00:40:24.771 --> 00:40:26.570
Anymore, so, yeah.
00:40:26.570 --> 00:40:28.490
And you don't have, and we don't and we don't have to.
00:40:28.851 --> 00:40:29.061
Yeah,
00:40:29.266 --> 00:40:29.755
exactly.
00:40:29.755 --> 00:40:32.481
And I'm, I'm really excited to read your book and
00:40:32.630 --> 00:40:33.050
Oh, great.
00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:33.291
I'm
00:40:33.291 --> 00:40:33.411
glad.
00:40:33.411 --> 00:40:43.280
I think like, rather than being for this very narrow niche, if you, if you've experienced these things you like, it sounds like the lessons that you've learned Yeah.
00:40:43.311 --> 00:40:47.510
And your process is something that we can all apply to our own.
00:40:47.510 --> 00:40:47.521
Yeah.
00:40:48.771 --> 00:40:53.871
Exploration of ourselves and our own journey towards healing ourselves from whatever it is.
00:40:54.201 --> 00:40:54.260
Yeah.
00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:57.320
And you know, when you said that you, everyone has, okay.
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.021
Did you read Liz Gilbert's new book all the Way to the River?
00:41:00.231 --> 00:41:00.920
Yes,
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:01.161
of
00:41:01.161 --> 00:41:01.610
course.
00:41:01.610 --> 00:41:01.851
Yes.
00:41:01.851 --> 00:41:03.351
He caught a ton of shit.
00:41:03.590 --> 00:41:09.831
For, for saying that everyone uses something or someone, people were just clutching their pearls.
00:41:10.190 --> 00:41:10.521
I know.
00:41:10.521 --> 00:41:10.581
Yeah.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:12.110
Like, who the hell are you?
00:41:12.170 --> 00:41:12.800
Like, yeah.
00:41:13.010 --> 00:41:13.760
Everybody.
00:41:14.090 --> 00:41:17.061
We all, we, we, we don't know how to cope with life.
00:41:17.061 --> 00:41:17.931
It's crazy.
00:41:18.081 --> 00:41:18.951
It's intense.
00:41:19.101 --> 00:41:20.751
We're not really sure why we're here.
00:41:20.871 --> 00:41:23.675
Like it's, we, we do things to numb out.
00:41:24.175 --> 00:41:28.615
Or to mask or to cope or to like, everybody does it.
00:41:28.615 --> 00:41:34.976
So the fact does fact that people were just horrified by her proclamation I thought was ridiculous because I think you're right.
00:41:35.275 --> 00:41:40.735
I think we all have unhealthy patterns, whether it's in our relationships or within our own bodies.
00:41:40.735 --> 00:41:43.315
And anyone who doesn't believe that they do.
00:41:43.650 --> 00:41:45.570
You know, has maybe achieved enlightenment.
00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:48.451
And I don't think those folks are the ones throwing stones at authors.
00:41:48.451 --> 00:41:49.110
So I don't know.
00:41:49.141 --> 00:41:50.106
No, I could be wrong.
00:41:50.106 --> 00:41:50.126
I don't
00:41:50.126 --> 00:41:50.670
either.
00:41:50.791 --> 00:41:50.971
Um,
00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:52.050
I agree with that.
00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:57.061
And I think we all either have inner or outer stuff that we're, we lean on for release from pain.
00:41:57.090 --> 00:41:58.380
'cause the world is painful.
00:41:58.831 --> 00:41:59.070
Mm-hmm.
00:41:59.311 --> 00:42:09.751
And, um, and yeah, this was my journey and I, I totally is one of those moments in terms of writing that book where again, I'll say I wrote through it like I was writing through the pain.
00:42:09.751 --> 00:42:10.740
So, um.
00:42:11.541 --> 00:42:20.210
But I also love the book in the sense that I feel like it's funny and it shows the humor in things and, and gave moments of true levity because that's how I write.
00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:24.021
I love humor and I love writing funny'cause that's kind of who I am.
00:42:24.291 --> 00:42:24.860
Um, me too.
00:42:25.431 --> 00:42:37.460
And it gave hope, and I know a lot of people have talked about in terms of, um, reading books like this, it's one of those moments where, um, are you gonna read a drunk, a log where everything's awful and it doesn't really offer.
00:42:37.806 --> 00:42:41.795
Um, a way out or a moment of hope, and I feel like humor provides that.
00:42:41.856 --> 00:42:47.405
It gives us that, that moment where we're all kind of on the same page and we're all together in it Anyhow.
00:42:47.405 --> 00:42:47.525
Yeah.
00:42:47.525 --> 00:42:49.536
Now it sounds like I'm just bragging about my book.
00:42:49.536 --> 00:42:49.655
No,
00:42:49.655 --> 00:42:49.865
no.
00:42:49.865 --> 00:42:50.766
But, but you know what?
00:42:50.766 --> 00:42:51.005
Okay.
00:42:51.005 --> 00:42:59.166
Speaking of Liz Gilbert, I have two friends and, and my writing community who went to, um, a, like a, an event of hers in Vancouver.
00:42:59.376 --> 00:42:59.465
Mm-hmm.
00:42:59.706 --> 00:43:03.155
And she came up to one of them and said, do you love your writing?
00:43:03.451 --> 00:43:03.871
Mm-hmm.
00:43:04.251 --> 00:43:05.070
And my friend said, yeah.
00:43:06.141 --> 00:43:06.650
I do.
00:43:06.650 --> 00:43:09.081
And she's like, good, I love mine too.
00:43:09.231 --> 00:43:12.021
Like, why shouldn't you brag about your book?
00:43:12.021 --> 00:43:13.731
Why shouldn't you love your book?
00:43:13.731 --> 00:43:14.840
And, and.
00:43:14.945 --> 00:43:23.615
And, and I totally agree with you on the humor as, as a lifeline and I, my memoir, which is coming out in December, 2026.
00:43:23.826 --> 00:43:24.846
So that's exciting.
00:43:24.846 --> 00:43:25.170
Oh, very exciting.
00:43:25.411 --> 00:43:25.570
I know.
00:43:25.570 --> 00:43:25.891
That's
00:43:25.891 --> 00:43:25.931
awesome.
00:43:25.931 --> 00:43:26.451
Congratulations.
00:43:26.471 --> 00:43:34.505
But I also wrote my way through it, it like, if, if Brene Brown says right from the scar, not the wound, I'm also a big fan of writing wall hemorrhaging.
00:43:34.505 --> 00:43:38.405
I think that's very useful because like you said, you write your way through it.
00:43:38.405 --> 00:43:38.465
Yeah.
00:43:38.615 --> 00:43:42.186
And I think maybe if there, if there's a takeaway to listeners here.
00:43:42.260 --> 00:43:52.820
I think it's, it's what you said about when you had your moment of like, when you, well in, in Liz's book that like saying, my life like this has become unmanageable.
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:53.061
Right?
00:43:53.061 --> 00:43:53.121
Yeah.
00:43:53.150 --> 00:43:59.960
Something like I, I've identified that this is not sustainable, it's not working, rather than going to shame or judgment.
00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:00.141
It was.
00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:02.561
I need to understand what's happening.
00:44:02.621 --> 00:44:09.280
Like I would say to anyone who is at this pivotal midlife, not crisis, but whatever it is, um, yeah.
00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:11.380
Chrysalis that you're about to go into mm-hmm.
00:44:11.826 --> 00:44:25.240
Go into the midlife chrysalis and figure out what is, what is, what's at the root of this, what do you need to understand about yourself that you're not currently understanding, that's resulting in whatever pattern you're stuck in, that that feels terrible.
00:44:25.510 --> 00:44:28.630
And then, you know, whether you write your way through it or.
00:44:29.081 --> 00:44:34.900
Or evening, walk your way through it or journal or meditate or yoga, but like, I think you're right.
00:44:34.900 --> 00:44:37.360
Doing that, doing something creative like that.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:37.931
Something life-giving.
00:44:39.081 --> 00:44:39.380
Yeah.
00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:40.911
To, to help with your healing.
00:44:40.911 --> 00:44:41.420
I don't know.
00:44:41.451 --> 00:44:44.751
I just, I think you're onto a really beautiful formula here.
00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:45.141
Yeah.
00:44:45.141 --> 00:44:48.110
About getting curious at what's going on.
00:44:48.231 --> 00:44:48.471
Yes.
00:44:48.501 --> 00:44:49.460
And that's a word I use.
00:44:49.460 --> 00:44:51.201
You need to get curious about yourself.
00:44:51.201 --> 00:45:04.340
If we get curious about other things, you know, like I'll end up researching Tom Hiddleston for like 25 minutes because I wanna know what makes Tom Hiddleston tick, or, um, I don't know why I picked that person, but.
00:45:04.496 --> 00:45:05.391
I just think he's cute.
00:45:05.391 --> 00:45:06.590
Well, now I wanna, now
00:45:06.791 --> 00:45:07.496
I wanna research him.
00:45:07.496 --> 00:45:07.646
Yeah.
00:45:07.646 --> 00:45:08.186
No, I, I've
00:45:09.206 --> 00:45:09.655
really pointing
00:45:09.896 --> 00:45:11.695
towards stimulus, rabbit hole and I'm there.
00:45:11.695 --> 00:45:11.815
Who knew?
00:45:12.295 --> 00:45:12.715
Right?
00:45:12.715 --> 00:45:13.135
Yahoo.
00:45:13.135 --> 00:45:13.356
Who knew?
00:45:13.650 --> 00:45:25.885
Um, but it's just funny how we, we give that to so many other things in our life and, and we talk, you know, we will end up, we will research for ages about stuff about our kids so that we can help them.
00:45:26.275 --> 00:45:27.985
Why do we not do it about ourselves?
00:45:28.300 --> 00:45:44.710
And I love how you pointed out the chrysalis thing, because even as I talk about the word stuck and feeling stuck and feeling, you know, like you're in limbo and that moment before where something creative comes along and that feeling of stuckness, that's, that's okay too.
00:45:44.771 --> 00:45:46.001
And that's necessary.
00:45:46.001 --> 00:45:51.380
And there's a part where hunkering down and isolating might not be the healthiest, but there's right.
00:45:51.731 --> 00:45:53.291
There's a time for that, you know?
00:45:53.291 --> 00:45:54.731
Well, you can't skip it.
00:45:54.911 --> 00:45:59.650
I think sometimes you literally need to sit in your shit before you do anything else.
00:45:59.740 --> 00:46:00.460
Exactly.
00:46:00.465 --> 00:46:01.115
And the pain.
00:46:01.420 --> 00:46:03.731
And you need to just allow it to happen.
00:46:03.731 --> 00:46:04.990
Allow it, and sit with it.
00:46:05.291 --> 00:46:06.400
It's kinda like childbirth.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:06.911
I mean, you have to.
00:46:07.036 --> 00:46:09.826
Sit through that, those pains and deal with them.
00:46:09.826 --> 00:46:13.936
Although I wasn't personally dealing with them, I was on drugs at the time.
00:46:13.936 --> 00:46:15.646
Which, sorry, it's still, sorry.
00:46:15.945 --> 00:46:16.695
Natural wait metaphor.
00:46:16.695 --> 00:46:18.556
No, the analogy is Yep.
00:46:18.556 --> 00:46:19.005
Anyhow.
00:46:19.141 --> 00:46:22.036
And, and know that you're not gonna be in labor forever.
00:46:22.065 --> 00:46:22.335
Right.
00:46:22.335 --> 00:46:22.666
Exactly.
00:46:22.666 --> 00:46:23.206
Like this is
00:46:23.206 --> 00:46:25.065
not, I down and dealt with it.
00:46:25.385 --> 00:46:25.865
Yeah.
00:46:26.135 --> 00:46:26.376
Yep.
00:46:26.376 --> 00:46:27.545
And kind of isolated.
00:46:27.545 --> 00:46:38.076
And it was, and, and I knew I was doing it and I was aware of it and, and let myself kind of feel sorry for myself and feel shitty on some days, and then slowly I think it was okay.
00:46:38.226 --> 00:46:44.945
I think the difference was the feeling stuck part when I finally looked at that too and said, okay, so this is what you're doing right now.
00:46:45.096 --> 00:46:48.635
I see you're feeling sorry for yourself and you're not, you know, you're not.
00:46:48.815 --> 00:46:55.295
Really doing much and you're eating too much and you're not really getting outside or dealing with anything that's exercise related.
00:46:55.295 --> 00:47:00.036
'cause I really, I have to run every day or my brain is bad, you know, that kind of thing.
00:47:00.036 --> 00:47:01.626
But I wasn't running and all of that.
00:47:02.045 --> 00:47:07.235
And I, I faced it and I finally was like, okay, all right, I see you, I see you stuck.
00:47:07.505 --> 00:47:10.565
Um, that's, you're gonna be stuck, I guess, for a while.
00:47:10.565 --> 00:47:14.706
And then as soon as I did that and admitted to it and, and it.
00:47:15.025 --> 00:47:17.335
It was able to kind of work itself out.
00:47:17.485 --> 00:47:26.365
The kinks were working out at the time, and I slowly got back into, into, um, a creative practice and writing every day and then running, and, you know.
00:47:26.871 --> 00:47:28.791
It's like you have to face it and look at it.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:29.505
It's like the mm-hmm.
00:47:29.585 --> 00:47:31.760
I used to tell my kids that they had nightmares.
00:47:32.210 --> 00:47:35.871
Um my son Henry, was really scared of the clown it.
00:47:36.201 --> 00:47:45.860
And um, I told them, in your dream, I want you to, in your scary dream, I want you to go up to the it clown and I want you to boop it on the nose and just go, boop.
00:47:47.150 --> 00:47:48.411
And it's the same.
00:47:48.411 --> 00:47:51.710
It's kind of like, okay, I'm gonna boop you, we call it the boost roll.
00:47:52.251 --> 00:47:52.371
Yes.
00:47:52.371 --> 00:47:53.780
That is brilliant.
00:47:54.045 --> 00:47:54.945
That is brilliant.
00:47:54.945 --> 00:47:57.226
Yeah, I think I, I don't know.
00:47:57.226 --> 00:47:58.365
And, and, and you know what?
00:47:58.365 --> 00:48:04.246
We are gonna have, like, we are gonna have dips, we are gonna have ebbs and then we're gonna need to get back into the flow.
00:48:04.246 --> 00:48:11.115
And I think we need to have the grace and patience during those to know that sometimes we forget and then we're gonna remember again, you know?
00:48:11.175 --> 00:48:11.326
Yeah.
00:48:11.626 --> 00:48:18.525
It's not gonna go away forever and the body will come back and I, I mean, hopefully the body will come back to where.
00:48:19.865 --> 00:48:22.356
It, it needs to be, it'll balance it itself out.
00:48:22.356 --> 00:48:25.326
I know for me, if I go back to drinking, it won't, right.
00:48:25.476 --> 00:48:27.425
'cause that will just take me off the rails.
00:48:27.425 --> 00:48:33.335
So there are some things in place where I know, like some really bad stuff if I, if I do this.
00:48:33.425 --> 00:48:33.485
Yeah.
00:48:33.576 --> 00:48:34.025
Um.
00:48:34.096 --> 00:48:35.865
So I have some boundaries in place.
00:48:35.865 --> 00:48:39.585
I'm not gonna allow myself to just go all out into like, you know, right.
00:48:39.766 --> 00:48:40.786
Fitness and squalor.
00:48:41.115 --> 00:48:44.565
Um, but I do, I'm, I just, I guess the word is gentle.
00:48:44.626 --> 00:48:47.326
I'm just a lot more gentle with, with all of this.
00:48:47.740 --> 00:48:54.856
I, I just remember when I was a little kid, I wanted to, I had a best friend who had horses and I wanted to learn how to horseback ride'cause it was awesome.
00:48:54.856 --> 00:48:55.635
And I loved horses.
00:48:55.996 --> 00:48:59.746
And I just remember one time I just got on this mare and I was just ready.
00:48:59.746 --> 00:49:02.956
Like I was, we were gonna just canter off and I fell.
00:49:03.251 --> 00:49:08.501
Off the horse because I tried too hard to do too much and the horse wasn't ready and I wasn't ready.
00:49:08.771 --> 00:49:11.891
And my friend Tracy walked up to me and I was lying on the ground.
00:49:11.891 --> 00:49:12.971
And she's like, you all right?
00:49:12.971 --> 00:49:13.601
And I said, yeah.
00:49:13.601 --> 00:49:17.231
She goes, you need to be gentle with yourself and the horse.
00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:22.121
And I just always remembered that like, be gentle with yourself and the horse.
00:49:22.181 --> 00:49:23.320
So yeah.
00:49:24.096 --> 00:49:26.195
Those are the perfect words to end of this episode with.
00:49:26.195 --> 00:49:27.365
Yeah, that was good.
00:49:27.371 --> 00:49:27.641
Am I good?
00:49:27.646 --> 00:49:27.846
Wait,
00:49:27.936 --> 00:49:28.806
bring it home.
00:49:29.405 --> 00:49:30.065
That was brilliant.
00:49:30.275 --> 00:49:30.365
Oh, I
00:49:30.365 --> 00:49:31.596
landed the plane.
00:49:31.835 --> 00:49:33.155
Landed the plane.
00:49:33.215 --> 00:49:36.215
No, I, um, just, I got the goosebumps now.
00:49:36.215 --> 00:49:37.326
This was, um.
00:49:37.746 --> 00:49:40.206
Just, I felt like I just took a wisdom bath.
00:49:40.235 --> 00:49:40.775
You know?
00:49:40.925 --> 00:49:44.436
I felt like this was a, an hour of just marinating in the good stuff.
00:49:44.436 --> 00:49:44.826
So
00:49:44.916 --> 00:49:45.126
yeah,
00:49:45.126 --> 00:49:52.681
thank you for being so generous and vulnerable and inspiring, and I can't wait to read your book and we'll link to your book and yay.
00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:54.545
And your TEDx talk.
00:49:54.545 --> 00:49:54.606
Yay.
00:49:54.635 --> 00:49:58.746
And all the places that our listeners can find you in the show notes.
00:49:58.746 --> 00:50:00.036
thank you so much Dana.
00:50:00.335 --> 00:50:01.416
thanks for being here.
00:50:01.956 --> 00:50:06.215
Together, we're going to make midlife neurodivergence less of a mystery.