How Lianna Patch Reinvented Her Copywriting Business

How Lianna Patch Reinvented Her Copywriting Business
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Brian: [00:00:00] You're about to hear my conversation with Lianna Patch. She comes back to the show to talk through the story of how she reinvented her copywriting business. Let's get into it.

So I'm about to roll my conversation with Lianna Patch. We chatted on December 13th, 2023. And in this episode, Lianna returns to the show and we walk through the story behind how Lianna reinvented her copywriting business, actually multiple times. She went from being what she described as like kind of working with boring or typical, uh, copy writing and copy editing clients.

To moving into a more fun way of making a living as a copywriter, especially for Lianna, who is a comedian and is so funny herself. So she reinvented herself as like a comedic comic copywriter. Then we even moved into what she's currently focused on, which is transitioning from productized consulting offers to actual [00:01:00] products for copywriters and others.

Um, it's a fascinating conversation. I think you're going to enjoy it. Here it is. Here's my chat with Lianna. Enjoy. So, Lianna Patch, we're, we're back on the show. Great to connect with you again.

Lianna: Yeah. So happy to be

here.

Brian: So in the last one we were, we were talking about your interest in comedy and your history with that and, and all that.

And then, and then near the end of that episode, you were talking about how you, you left the freelance copywriting thing to go, I. Take a, take a job for a couple of months at a company, and that didn't work. Like, it doesn't work for most of us who are like kind of unemployable in this, in this industry.

And you went back on your own, this was around 2015 and at that point you were gonna do it your way.


The evolution of Pubchline copy
---

Brian: Let, let's hear the story from there. I, I want to hear about punchline copy and how your business has evolved through the years. Um, but why, I mean, why don't we start at, [00:02:00] at the beginning there like, like.

Like did, what were your first steps when you kind of went back on your own? Like what was gonna be different this time?

Lianna: I was ready to do a complete rebranding because the business name that I had been working with was so boring. I don't even know where it came from. I started out as a copy editor. I've always been really good at that catching typos, things like that. And so my business name was the English Maven.

Brian: Okay.

Lianna: Which is just straight trash.

Um, and

you

Brian: Oh, so you were, you started

as an editor. Not even, not, not,

Lianna: yeah, I mean, I would write things here and there. Uh, I was, I was a copy writer and a copy editor because I didn't know how to make money. Um, and so I was doing everything, but yeah, I was doing a lot of publications editing by the time I got super burned out. I was the copy editor for like five different magazines, um, and was doing some content editing too, like working with writers to shape pieces, all of which I was good at, but there was a moment or two.[00:03:00]

When I was sitting at my desk and I realized I'm not breathing as I'm diving into this work, I'm holding my breath because I hate it so much. And that was a big wake up call for me.

Um, yeah. So I knew I needed like a totally different approach. Uh, and here's the thing. You can change your brand. You can change your business name.

You can change the clients that you're speaking to, but you will still keep a lot of your existing clients in the meantime.

Brian: there's a transition period.

Lianna: Yeah, and there were 2 for me, um, in, I think it was April 2016. I relaunched as punchline copy and I kept a lot of my editing clients. It was just like, well, externally, I'm speaking to people who want funny copy, but I have to pay the bills.

Um, and I was doing some retainer work. And by November of that year, I was burned out on the retainer work, like two burnouts in a row. And I fired everybody and went to Bali for two weeks with a group called Hacker Paradise.

Uh, I don't know, two and a half weeks. Yeah. I [00:04:00] was just like, what would the digital nomad lifestyle be like?

Goodbye, boyfriend. Goodbye, cats.

Brian: Oh, you actually like you, you intended on like moving around. Like not

just,

Lianna: no, I was just going for a couple of weeks. But,

uh, in retrospect, it was kind of rude of me to be like, please, please take care of my house. Um,

Brian: when maybe for others listening who are, who are maybe considering like a big change in focus. Not just a rebrand, but like I, you know, if someone's out there thinking like, you know, I need. Better clients or, or clients that I connect with on a more interesting level than the ones that I've been working with.

You know, I, um, and you, you know, you talked about this like transition period, you probably had all these network effects from your previous years, right? Like referrals, you know,

um,

Lianna: was

Brian: previous clients recommending you to other clients who are more like them, but not like this, this new brand of clients that, that you're going after.

How do you even think about starting to find First clients again in, in this new focus [00:05:00] for you

And,

Lianna: that was

Brian: yeah,

go ahead.

Lianna: sorry.

Brian: Well, I, and just to be clear for, for folks listening, like you're, would you call it like, you're, you're trying to focus more on like com, like a comedic style of copywriting and, and clients who value that?

Is that what you were going after?

Lianna: Yeah. Uh, that was really hard for a long time because I had clients who personally, I really liked who kept, you know, out of the generosity of their hearts, sending me referrals and I had to be like, yeah, I don't really do that anymore. I don't want to do that. And I'm not going to do that. And then for a while, I was doing that because I needed the money.

Um. But it took years for people to sort of get the message that I wasn't editing in particular anymore. Um, I have in the past done a really useful exercise where I think about the clients that I most enjoyed working with because there's so many facets of that. Like, it's the, it's the person themselves.

It's the scope of the project. Um. And then, like, how many revisions are there? Like, did I have fun writing this? Was it something [00:06:00] that I would want to do again or put on my website? There's so many ways to think about a good client, but I worked through like, what am I? A plus clients look like, what am I? B clients look like, you know, who's a C and below?

Like, who should I just reject outright? Uh, and sometimes I get people who are technically a fit for me in the business, but I turn them away because I do not like their vibe personally. And I don't say that, but it's,

it's just, yeah,

Brian: not worth it if it's not gonna be, uh, at least. It doesn't have to be like fun, but like it should be like professionally, like rewarding to work with someone. You, you

don't want to like

Lianna: For me, it has to be fun and like, that's different for everyone else, but that's 1 of the main, that's 1 of the most important things to me is, uh, do, do I get along with the person that I'm working with? Um, do I like them because I can get excited about almost anything I can write. About almost like if they're excited.

I'm excited. It's sort of contagious. Um, so I don't care what the product is. If you genuinely are working hard on it, it's something cool. Like, [00:07:00] it could be the most boring thing in the world. I love writing for boring products. Boring, nothing's boring. Um, but then I'll have people who are like, I, you know, I'm writing, I'm working on this DTC product and I know that's a perfect fit for you and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, yeah, but you kind of suck.


Lianna's main client base
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Brian: Um, actually, I was gonna ask about products. So like, are, is there a certain type of product or industry or business type? I know you've done a lot of work with like SaaS, but like you, you do other, other stuff like e-commerce or, or . Like, what's like the, what's the range of different products that you tend to work with?

Lianna: I would say like 95 percent of my clients are SaaS or e commerce. Um, and it's within that it's mostly website copy landing pages and email flows. I don't do, I do like more, uh, the R side of the pirate metrics funnel. Does anybody still say pirate metrics anymore?

You know, like our,

Brian: rr, right?

Lianna: yeah. So I'm like an R retention revenue side of

Brian: okay. Very cool. [00:08:00] Um, and are you working with like brand new startups, like from idea stage going forward or like, we've been around a couple years. We need to like rewrite and, and kind of dial in our, our voice.

Lianna: that's such a good question. Cause I am struggling to encapsulate. It's, it goes back to that, like, who's the best client for me, because I've worked with brands that have like, I don't know, a hundred million dollars in revenue. Uh, and I've worked with brands that have like a hundred K a year. Um. But it is a nice if they've done a little bit of experimentation, and I also don't want to be somebody's last few thousand dollars in the bank.

Right? Like, don't pay for copy. If you really can't afford it, uh, get Joanna's books or courses and, like, learn

to write it

Brian: You


How to be an ideal client
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Brian: know, that's what I'm curious about. 'cause I, I've sort of like hacked my way through writing my own copy for most things. A lot of it based on what I learned from, from Joanna's teachings early on. Um, uh, and, and I've worked with you, uh, a couple times [00:09:00] and, and that's been fantastic. Um. I always sort of, I wonder what is, I'm curious to know your take on this, like what's the optimal way to, to work with or, or outsource the writing with a professional copywriter like you, like my, my thinking on it, please correct me if I'm wrong, is like, I think it's helpful if I write the first pass based on

What I know every, everything I know about the customers and, and the, and the, the core pain point that, or, or problem that we're trying to solve. Like, I'll write a version of the, of the page and then at least just to give that to you as like, here's, here's what I came up with, but I know you can do so much better.

Don't, like, don't even literally like rewrite my sentences, but like, I, I would just want you to see what my take, like what my angle would be on it. And then, and then where would you go from here?

Lianna: I think that's great. Um, because. You know, I want to work with somebody who has done that work [00:10:00] to understand their customers, um, who at the very least has done some customer research, even if they haven't turned it into a page, but it's nice to work with people who have, like, given it a try and they they're running into specific stumbling blocks that they can tell me about, or they can be like, I think we're having this problem.

It's what I see in the survey responses, but I'm not sure. And I don't know where to put it on the page. And I can answer those questions better than. Just being like, okay, dump a bunch of customer research on me and I'll make a page hierarchy for you, which I can still do, uh, but it's, yeah, it's nicer when it's like more specific

questions.

Brian: Yeah. Do you ever get into the research phase part of it as well? Like, like, you know, you, you start working with a brand new client for you. You don't know much about the product or the problem they're solving. They don't really give you a lot of guidance. Like do you get into like doing customer interviews yourself or anything like that?

I.

Lianna: I have in the past. I don't so much anymore because I know so many people who are so good at it and specialize in that. Um, but this is, this comes back to like slicing and dicing perfect [00:11:00] clients, right? If they haven't done any of that, then I, I probably shouldn't be working with them at this point.

Um, I have settled at the spot where I say, here's a shared folder. Give me anything and everything, you know. Especially raw voice of customer, uh, and then I will ask questions to fill in the blanks and if I get enough answers and we can go forward with the copy. Great. If not, I might refer you out for a research project or do the research project as like the 1st

phase.

Brian: Got it. Got it.

Lianna: Yeah,


How Lianna structures her business
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Brian: Um, let's talk a bit more about like the structure of your business. Maybe I, how it's like changed or iterated over, over the years. Um, I feel like one of you, you were probably one of the early, uh, don't know if you call it this, but like, sort of like a productized consulting offer, like the way, the way that you've like packaged up your, your offerings.

Um,

Lianna: yeah.

Brian: well, I maybe we will start with today and go backwards, right? Like what, how, how do you, what's like the lineup of what you offer today? And maybe we can talk about how you got here.

Lianna: Ooh, it keeps [00:12:00] changing. I right now I'm really interested in making smaller, uh, more fun products that don't require any service,

you

Brian: I just subscribed to your $5 email,

uh,

Lianna: Oh, good.

Brian: and I loved it. I, I mean, you know what was so fun? It was so fascinating to me. First of all, and for those listening, you, you launched a, a, an email sequence, like an like an email course. , um, which there are so many of those. They've been around for years, but they're usually free.

You charged, I think I paid like five bucks for it. Maybe. I think you, you raised it to like 10 or 15 or something like that.

Lianna: I didn't know it's still 5. Um, we probably talked about this originally. It was going to be called funnier and 15 and it was going to be 15 bucks for 15 days of emails. And I wrote the series and I was reading it and I was like, this is way better than 15 dollars.

Brian: It was, it

absolutely was. I, I mean, I, I learned a lot and, and, but I did, I, I think it was in [00:13:00] maybe the first email, there was a line that said like, you paid $15 for this.

And I

Lianna: Oh, did you tell me

Brian: I didn't tell you about it because I thought that you were just planning on raising the price anyway, or something

like that.

Lianna: No, I think I fixed it. That was left over from the 15. Um, my ultimate goal, I think I'm still playing with this is to have like an upgrade option inside. So I, I snipped it back to the like theoretical and sort of inspirational emails and. The other ones are a lot more like execution based, like, here's how they do this thing.

Here's how to write this funny thing. Here's how to take what we talked about in emails, one through five and write funny. And, uh, basically it was sort of a, a walkthrough of my course. And I was like, that's my prices at 15. This is like, and I love to, I love to give a lot, but it was like,

this is, this is going to be

course sales.

Brian: I saw you launch that, first of all, I'm always interested in the work you're doing and, and just the topic of it, like write funny or copy. I was like, I would, I would love to learn about [00:14:00] that. Um, but I'm just fascinated and I think it's awesome that you launched a $5 product. No, nobody is doing that in our industry anymore.

Everyone's like, oh, you gotta charge more. You gotta charge hundreds. This is worth so much more. But I think it's genius because it's like. It's a, I read every word of every email that you sent in that, you know, 'cause most email courses you might read the first one and then you just ignore the rest of 'em.

'cause it's just another, another,

Lianna: But you paid

for it.

Brian: Yeah. This

is something

Lianna: Each email was a dollar of their money.

Brian: absolutely. I, I, like, I put my credit card in and like, that makes me pay attention to all five emails or whatever it was. Um, and so, I mean, the, the open rate on that has, has gotta be through the roof and, and it's gotta be like It's probably, it probably has this effect of like, like, obviously it's not like for revenue, it's, it's for engagement. I would think. It's like people getting subscribers to really hear about it, share it, retweet it, [00:15:00] and then engage with the emails, open every single one, and then, and then now they know you better.

You know that, that, that relationship over email continues right.

Lianna: And if I were using a system that saved their credit card, I would then have their credit card. Uh, not that I would do anything nefarious with it, but I think it's that whole like. You know, getting the first dollar is harder than getting the next 99 kind of thing that we have in SAS. Like I'm going to preauthorize your card for a dollar.

You can cancel any time that you've already paid. So you're sort of stuck in now. That was definitely the strategy. Um, I have been working with slash inspired by a friend who built a digital template shop. That she sold and like, now she no longer needs to work. So she's coaching and still making an insane amount of money.

Um, and she has, she calls these, uh, small, like under 10 offers, uh, overwhelm offers. And so it's like just a way to get people in the door. Like you've bought, you've bought a 5 thing. Do you want to buy a 17 thing? What about a 97 thing? What about 147? [00:16:00] So like, I basically for years have just had. Hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars as ways to work with me productized services.

And this year, I've just sort of been like, filling out that lower part of the ladder and being like, at scale, maybe this would be an interesting source of revenue.

Brian: Yeah. I love it.


Offering productized services
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Brian: All right, so let. We can get into like the, the actual product stuff that, like, like this email course that you're talking about, but let's talk about your productized consulting offers that, that you've had. I, I think you had one called like the upper cut and like, where it's, it's always been really interesting how you actually package them and deliver them, or like, all right, this day on the calendar is your day and, and like, so how, how do you kind of think about all that stuff?

Lianna: Yeah, um, I started with the by my day, right? So days, I think are super common now. They weren't as common when I was. Starting to do them, but I definitely didn't invent them. Um, but it was, for me, it was like, man, I'm super prolific and [00:17:00] like, can get a surprising amount done in a day. And I love the idea of not having projects overlap because people don't get back to you and then the invoice or whatever, and it's like, pay me up front.

This is your day. We'll figure out what I'm going to do during the day. And then it's over. And then.

Brian: prepared too. Like they, they gotta get their stuff together by the 20th of December, whatever, and

Lianna: Do they do I sort of it's a, it's a pretty informal process. I do have some emails. I should check on those. Like, those are going out, but they're triggered by certain steps. And sometimes people skip the steps and don't get the emails, which is annoying. Um, but, yeah, it's basically like, here's your shared folder.

Anything you think would be helpful. Let's look at that. I used to say, let's hop on a call at the beginning of the day. Now, if it's a 1st time client, we'll do a call a couple of weeks in advance. And so they know exactly what I'm going to be working on the day

of.

Brian: And then how do you, uh, how how'd you, how do you deal with like actually delivering the, day? Like, are you in touch throughout the day and then there's like a final delivery at the end? [00:18:00] And how do you deal with like, I don't know, like revisions or questions after the day?

Lianna: Yeah, usually, uh, usually just check in at the beginning of the day and say, like, Hey, just as a reminder, here's what I'm working on today. You'll hear from me in the afternoon. If you don't hear from me until the evening, it's because I took a walk and I'm going to come back and edit real quick. Um, and then we have a week for any revision requests.

So they have a week to get to look at the copy and add comments or help on a call or make me a loom, whatever works best. And then I have another week to turn around revisions. So, within 2 weeks of the day, they have finished copy.

Brian: Nice. Nice. So what, what else in your lineup of like service offerings are, are like kind of popular with your clients?

Lianna: Um, well, I have the uppercut, which is basically the landing page rewrite service. It's an audit and a rewrite. Um, I can, I'm, I'm like messing around with pricing because sometimes I can do like 3 uppercuts in a day and like, probably should not I get it.

Brian: like totally asynchronous, right? Like they, like, you're, you're not doing a [00:19:00] live call or consultation. It's like, send me this thing, I'll, I'll do some rewriting. I'll send you like a quick loom back and then.

Lianna: Exactly. Although sometimes like a lot of my, um, product high service orders come from having a call first and I, I do a little bit of vetting, but it's like, yeah, I'll hop on a call for 30 minutes and talk about your business. And if you like how I think about this stuff, then I can write for you.

Brian: Nice.

Lianna: and I'm doing, yeah, I've got some audit productized services.

One is four pages of a site and I chunked out a 10 minute piece of that. And, you know, started selling that for 150 bucks and that's done pretty well. Cause sometimes you just want 10 minutes of feedback on one page of your site.


..And larger projects?
---

Brian: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. How about like larger projects? Like we want you on board for like a month or for, uh, a three month project, like, are you doing any, anything huge like that with, with clients?

Lianna: I have, um, I had a client by three months, which was cool. This was a year or two ago. Um, [00:20:00] I have one retainer spot that I keep open until the right person comes along. Until the right

company comes along.

Brian: You can be like super selective with that.

Lianna: yeah, cause I, I don't want to, I don't want to work that hard. I'm like, I work hard, but I'm trying to make time for my own business, you know?

Um, and I want to make sure that I'm delivering the best work. And I haven't talked about this with you, but I've talked about this with my coach and some other friends. As I'm getting older, my capacity for like grinding is diminishing. And so I'm trying to build in

the rest. Yeah. I'm like, Oh man, I used to be able to write for like 10 hours a day.

Was what I was writing very good? Probably not.

Now I write better stuff, but I can't go for

as long.


2024's roadmap
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Brian: so we're recording this in December of 2023. This will come out in 2024. What's on your plate for, for this year? Like what kind of changes are you making? We talked about the, that email course that came out a couple weeks [00:21:00] ago. The, the $5 email course. What, what else are you thinking? Like, like.

Structurally, like, what, what do you want to get into? What, what's, what's gonna be new or different or, or what are you, what are you killing off? What are you ending?

Lianna: um, I don't think I'm ending anything. I am introducing a lot of new stuff. Uh, I'm going to start selling this, uh, exhaustive list of humor writing formats

that I've been working on with my friend, Alex Baya, who is like been published in the New Yorker 20 times and runs a humor blog called slack job. Uh, we've been collaborating on this thing, so that's going to be another, like, probably 17 ish bucks, maybe 27.

We're not sure yet. Just a huge Google

Brian: So a collection of like formulas for pieces that, like, how, how do you, what is that?

Lianna: Yeah, so great question. It's like, um, monologues and different types of monologues and examples of each of those monologues. They're all written humor format pieces. So, like McSweeny's, Reductress, The Onion, Clickhole, uh, Hard Times, things like that. But, [00:22:00] but all the formats that you would see. A headline written in or, you know, headline is a format, uh, like letters, dialogues, screenplays, um, any possible way to put a frame around a funny concept, which is where so many people get stuck.

And 1 of the things that I try to teach, it's like, when you're looking for ideas, go improv blue sky go wide. But when you're trying to write, like, put a little metaphor or frame or filter around it so that you have creative limitations.

Brian: So, so, so you mean like, like kind of like setting constraints, like whatever we come up here, it has to sort of check these boxes.

Lianna: Yeah, or, like, if you're sitting there and you're, like, I have this funny idea, but I don't know if it'd be better as, like, a letter to the editor or, like, a text conversation, you know, or a series of yard signs, uh, you can just scroll through this list and be like, oh, that's funny. Oh, I could do it that way.

So kind of inspiration.

Brian: I like that.

Lianna: Yeah, and it

Brian: interesting, like I'm, I'm just right now starting to get into, uh, I'm [00:23:00] planning on doing a lot more YouTube content next year.

Lianna: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian: now I'm like learning a lot about what it means to create YouTube content and like so much of it is packaging the concept for a video, like in the thumbnail and the title.

and

Lianna: Yeah.

Brian: and yeah,

like the hook and everything. And I guess it's all about sort of like looking at other channels maybe from completely different spaces, different industries and sort of see like it taking one idea, but like trying it in like 10 different title variations or

10 different

Lianna: Nice. Yeah.

Brian: Interesting.

Lianna: Yeah. I'm doing, I'm, I'm like saving Instagram reels that I think are cool or that I could, you know, reasonably ape in my own industry. I'm doing the same kind of like swipe file stuff.

Brian: Okay.

Lianna: And I also,

Oh, sorry.

Brian: I

was gonna say, like, so, so we've got a $5 email course. We've got a $17, uh, uh, you know, the like templates collection thing that you're just describing where, let, let's go up the ladder. Where, where are we going from here?

Lianna: we've got my [00:24:00] own swipe file, which is, uh, called comedy pedia. And it is an air table that you can search and sort by types of copy and type of humor. So like, I want a funny email opt in that's sort of wholesome and goofy. And you can sort to find those or like, I want unsubscribed copy that is really dark and morbid or a landing page that is lowbrow and crass.

Um, I'm going to start selling that.

Brian: And this is your swipe file, your, your Airtable that you've been like collecting for like how, how many years?

Like

Lianna: Not that many years because I was just using my hard drive, but I started putting them. I think I've, I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 examples right now. So not every like slice and dice is going to have. Like a whole bunch of examples, if any, um, but I'm going to keep adding to it. And so part of the reason to launch it is to light that fire under myself to like, systematically add to it.

Cause now I, I have like five examples a week, maybe


Moving from consulting to "passive" revenue
---

Brian: So it sounds like you are, you, [00:25:00] you are, you're making the, the thing, the, the transition that most people start to make. It's like, let's get away from selling my time through these consulting things. Let's get into products. Is that, is that like your general I.

Goal

Lianna: I think so. Or, or just to say, like, wouldn't it be nice to build this passive, you know, quote unquote, passive revenue. Um, cause I've never really tried that I've just traded time for money. And if I can make things that people actually find useful and novel, why shouldn't I do that?

Brian: Sure.

And I mean, and it makes so much sense to do it, but I, I guess the other thing that goes along with this transition is you get away from. The done for you, which is like clients who, they're not even trying to be professional copywriters themselves. They're hiring someone like you to selling products to other professional copywriters or maybe aspiring professional copywriters.

Lianna: Yeah.

Brian: Um, yeah, like, like what are your thoughts on that? Like, I, I, I think it's a, it, it makes, [00:26:00] I feel like it's the, it's the tr it's the way to transition that makes the most sense because like. I think a lot of people have tried to do the thing where it's like, okay, I've been serving these kind of clients in a service capacity.

Now let's create a course that people like those clients could take to do it themselves. But I think at the end of the day, most of those clients don't wanna take a course. They wanna hire someone, you know?

Lianna: I don't know. Um, some of the other stuff that I'm exploring adding is like fractional CMO offerings for SAS companies. Cause the feedback that I've been getting is like, I wish I could just have five hours a week. Of your time or your brain, um, and that appeals to the strategy side of my brain, which is like, great.

Because I don't have the stamina to write, you know, 20 hours a week for a

single client.

Brian: know, as, as we, as we talk here again, we're, we're in December, 2023 here, and I, I'm also experimenting with, with sort of similar things [00:27:00] as like a. That, you know, this term, like fractional, this, fractional that I'm, I'm, I'm playing around with like fractional product strategists or PR product manager for, for other software companies.

And I have a couple of these like early clients who are, who, who I'm working with like this. And most of it is async. Um, and like in one case it's like we, we need to, they're an established SaaS company. We're, we're building out some big new feature. I'm gonna go in and work with them to just plan it out, roadmap it, spec it out, and then they, um, and I, I mean, I'm also kind of learning like how does this fractional thing sort of make sense for them?

How does it make sense for me? What kind of clients are, are ideal for this? What, what's not a great fit? And it, it's an interesting, um, I feel like that that term fractional is almost like the new productized consulting , you know.

Lianna: And I actually kind of resisted it. Um, I really wanted to call this offer, [00:28:00] uh, marketing co founder as a service and a resounding quorum of bootstrapped SAS owners were like, no, call it fractional. CMO. It's like, all

right,

Brian: I, you know, 'cause I feel like it matches up so well with how so many companies, at least in our industry, think about hiring. You know, like I almost . First of all, like someone like as, as talented as, as you or other people in our, in our industry, like it wouldn't ever make sense to like hire a, a full-time for like a full-time, annual salary.

Right. Like a, you wouldn't be available for that sort of thing. BI wouldn't be able to afford it. But the, the, um, the idea of of of getting like your expertise or, or you know, like. On a fractional level, like that's how I've always hired people, you know, is like, work, work with some of the best people, but just for a project or just for a couple hours here, a couple hours there, and you still get the benefit and they're, they're still doing their thing, you know?

Lianna: Yeah, [00:29:00] yeah, I'm on the same page. I think project scopes are just so much easier and more contained and contribute more to excellence, like, better outcomes than retainer stuff, which often this is the reason I don't really have retainer projects anymore. I was upset with myself for, like, I Delivering okay work, delivering fine work, but not like transcendent one off exciting stuff that, you know, hopefully I'm still capable of.

Brian: Site is punchline copy.com. We'll, we'll get everything linked up. Um. And I'm, I'm really excited to see all this new stuff that you're rolling out in, in 2024. It

Lianna: Thank you.

Brian: fun to watch

Lianna: Yeah, thank you so much for these great questions. I love talking about myself.

Brian: Always fun. Thanks. Thanks, Ana. See you.