00:00:07
Speaker 1: It's been more than 20 years since the Perfect Circle last toured New Zealand and this December they're finally back alongside Pussifer for a very special double bill and with me now is the Perfect Circle founder and guitarist Billy Howdell. Billy, thanks for your time.
00:00:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having us.
00:00:27
Speaker 1: I don't think many people realize that A Perfect Circle actually began with your demos, because at the time you were working as a guitar tech with Tool when Maynard first heard your music. What was that like for you, getting that opportunity to have your music heard and then forming A Perfect Circle?
00:00:46
Speaker 2: I can remember, pretty much remember the day in saying that probably the catalyst was become the band, which is like, I like, I like that. I could hear myself singing on that, but I just took it as, Hey, nice job with the thing you're working on. You know, that's, I didn't take it as we were going to form a band. And then 26 years later, here we are. Um, so, uh, the pressure wasn't on at that point. It's started to be after he got more serious and, He wanted to, hey, can you send me something and I'll chew on it. Then we put down two songs. He put down vocals on two songs, which was The Hollow and Arrest Us was the first two we worked on. And yeah, then it started to take shape. And then it was really exciting. Then the pressure was on in the best way. And yeah, we started figuring out how we're going to hold this off.
00:01:45
Speaker 1: When you were putting your songs together, So when you first played as A Perfect Circle, did you start with just being in studio doing, you doing guitar, him writing, putting his magic to it? How, what was that process?
00:01:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very first things were just, he was just saying on the instrumentals that I had and it was, yeah, the first couple of songs, it was just, just me with a drum machine, you know, bass on the guitar and kind of, hashing it out. And then we got Tim Alexander, who was in Primus to play drums on some stuff. And then Josh freeze got in the picture. I was working with Josh. My day job at the time was working with guns and roses in the studio, um, as a, you know, digital engineer and helping. I kind of wore a bunch of hats in there and met Josh. And he was just this amazing drummer and Maynard had mentioned him as a possible, uh, you know, possible somebody that we should check out. I had never met Josh before the Devo and tool played together on a festival. So when I bumped into him there, I was like auditioning. I was playing bass for the Guns N' Roses auditions for drummers. And he just happened to be the best one that came through the door, you know, and, uh, it was amazing to be able to play with them. And then it all came around. It's crazy to think that that was, that was 20, that was 30 years ago, right? That was, uh, Almost. That was like 1997. Wow. 1997 or 98.
00:03:20
Speaker 1: Wow. So that must have been pretty surreal for you where you're setting up a stage every night or a studio and then you're standing alongside Maynard as your creative partner in front of a live audience. How was that switch for you in your brain?
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was crazy. So that was 99 was the first time we played live. So again, I started with GNR like 97. and by the end, like by September of 99, I kind of put in my notice, you know, and, and Axl knew that, that that's where I was going to, you know, ultimately was going to be pursuing this, um, what would become perfect circle. Uh, we, in early 99, we had enough songs. I think we had like six or seven ideas together. So it just became, um, like let's just set an unrealistic deadline and put a show on the books. And that's what we did. We, we, there was a benefit show at the Viper room, which is tiny clubs, like a 200 seat club in LA. And we just, we got signed up to play and then we had to put a band together. So, uh, failure had opened for, for tool. And we knew those guys. So we called on Troy Van Leeuwen to play guitar. And I had met Paz Lanchon a couple of years before that. And I just, Paz was one of my really close friends. It's just amazing. musical floors and then it came back to going to back and forth between Tim Alexander on drums and Josh so we kind of like bounced back and forth on that and ultimately landed on Josh it was just setting that deadline of having a show on the books really helped like make this urgency that you're not just sitting you know going through endless choices of what could be we just had to we had to pin things down so it was a good.
00:05:08
Speaker 1: So that urgency kind of really built the kind of the atmosphere for what would become a perfect circle as well, eh? Like you say, having that deadline and knowing you've got something to work for. And do you think being a guitar tech gave you a different appreciation of what makes a great live performance now that, you know, you're standing under the lights instead of.
00:05:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, in ways, it certainly was good being on a crew and understanding what they are up against, what's possible, what isn't. And sometimes what to expect and what not to. And of all these things, like being a guitar tech or working in the studio and learning how to track drums and learning how to engineer, I guess there's the money-saving part of it, right? Because you're able to do everything yourself as much as you can. But then again, it's always great to have other people helping out and getting an outside perspective on things. So just working for bands was invaluable in being able to do things by myself when I needed to. And also being able to appreciate, you know, the work that everyone else puts into it. So yeah, it's, it's been great.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Cause you've, um, you've worked with artists like David Bowie, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, the, we call them the smazzapazzas, but the Smashing Pumpkins. Um, I guess you would have learned a lot watching them and seeing how they perfect their music.
00:06:36
Speaker 2: So.
00:06:37
Speaker 1: What do you think was the biggest lesson that you took away that shapes the way that you make music?
00:06:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, with all those bands. I mean, being around the quality of the music was great. You know, most of the bands, I'd say most all the bands I worked for were great musicians and made great music and had great live shows. And some were really energetic. I mean, I worked for Fishbone for years. That show was like unmatched energy. The Nine Inch Nails Downward Spiral tour was, again, almost unmatched energy. And then there's other bands that's just more refined. And, you know, the Bowie tour was sleepy in comparison, but just obviously this legend and the top of the top musicians performing. And then, you know, then you take how musicians treat their crew and how, you know, musicians that come into fame treat people, you know, you learn how you want to be and how you don't want to be. There's plenty of examples of both. So I think that's a great education, you know, to have just from being on a crew that you don't get otherwise, you know, I think, you know, I was 29 when Perfect Circle did, when we did our first show. So I was, you know, had been around a while, but I can't imagine being, 17 or 18 and having that feeling it would just it almost be too much like I don't know it's got to be hard for for people to taste that that kind of energy and expect it to be in every other area of your life and that's I think why people fall into problems you know so it's nice to be around some warnings of that yeah.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: Getting that taste for it and kind of seeing how yeah I guess it is that It's like anything they say, you know, when you start, like some people start washing the dishes in a restaurant and they kind of get a feel for how the restaurant runs before they work their way up and then they become the restaurant owner or restaurant manager and you get that appreciation. And when you go out to dine, you get that appreciation for what it's like to be a server. So you want to treat them with all the kindness and respect they deserve as well.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Of course.
00:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker 2: No, of course. Totally makes sense. Yeah. You don't want to be born into being a venture capitalist, right? That's the equivalent of becoming a narcissistic rock star from the age of 15. That would be the recipe for a terrible human.
00:09:11
Speaker 1: Well, I think through your music, I mean, I first– I think it was Three Libras was the first song that really hooked me in for you guys. And when you're listening back to Judith, Three Libras, We Can Power This– When you hear those songs today, do they still sound like the band you imagined back then? Or do you hear a band that was still finding its identity and still working out, you know, ironing out the creases and things like that? How does that sound to you when you listen back?
00:09:38
Speaker 2: I think it's aged well for me. I can still listen to it and be proud of it. And I've never really had, I've luckily not had like, oh, I would have done that different, like on any albums I've made. Not to say they're perfect, but just I've kind of let it go. I mean, you know, tap into whatever Buddhism I have in me to just go like, this is... it just once once it's done it's done and not to question it moving forward so i think um yeah that's been nice and especially listening back to a first album we we did get to play those songs live before the album came out There's only a couple exceptions of songs that got kind of done in the studio that we didn't play live on the first album. So it was just nice to have that testing ground and get that energy in there. So I'm sure that really helped to contribute to the way it sounded.
00:10:32
Speaker 1: Were you surprised at how big you guys became? Did you have any sort of insight into how big you would be?
00:10:40
Speaker 2: No, I mean, everything happened so fast in the beginning, which was, you know, wonderful. So many things aligned at the right time. You know, us having, obviously Maynard's has an incredible track record and coming from just like, coming from Tool and having him being a name with recognition. But having, signing to Virgin and having our record company chairman, Nancy Berry, take us under her wing and really, she felt like a sixth band member. She cared and pushed for us in ways that I feel really fortunate that she did. Because again, marketing is, unfortunately, I won't say everything, but it's so important. And now probably more than ever, just like how you're going to get out. And we really had that with her. And she connected us with David Fincher to have her first video done, which is still, I think, holds up. And then getting on the Nine Inch Nails tour opening, it was an amazing opportunity to get heard and there was energy right off the bat and everything kind of sprung board from that.
00:11:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely was the stars aligned for you, eh? It's so cool when that happens in life too because you would never have thought a year earlier that that was going to happen and then 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, you're just like, whoa.
00:12:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
00:12:05
Speaker 1: So your creative process, partnership with Maynard has always fascinated me because you build these incredible musical landscapes before he even starts writing the lyrics. So when you send him a new demo these days, are you still doing that or are you working on those in studio? Or do you have a kind of instinct as to where he might take it? Or does he still surprise you?
00:12:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, still sending him, you know, demos and things like that. And seeing how he responds. So, you know, now like in the first album, it was like, I had a collection of songs and he sang on every one of them, but one. And, and now it's a little more refined in that. Okay. What is he getting turned on by now? You know, where is he musically or I guess narratively, what's he looking to say and how does the songs that are presented fit into that? So in a way, it's even more tailored and fine tuned, you know, Yeah.
00:13:01
Speaker 1: When you come here in December, it is a double bill. So you'll be playing with Pussifer on the same bill. What can Kiwi fans expect when they walk into the show in December?
00:13:13
Speaker 2: Park early so you can see Pussifer. That's what you can expect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be great. I mean, they're like our extended family, obviously, and it's going to be really fun. I mean, I... We did that Susanta tour, which was Maynard's 60th birthday tour, actually for two years in a row here, a couple of years ago. And it was just such a nice time being out with people. You know, we've got family in the form of crew as well, but just having the other band, having Pussifer, which is like part of our extended family, it's just so awesome being able to travel the world with them. Looking forward to that.
00:13:55
Speaker 1: So will you be playing a mix of new and old? Because you've got Starlet.
00:13:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. Yeah, I would all but guarantee we will play that song. That's our new song. And maybe a new one. We'll see.
00:14:07
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:14:10
Speaker 2: Maybe an additional one to that. And then, you know, the set list isn't quite written yet, but we'll see. I usually leave that to Maynard to see where he's feeling, what he's wanting to sing. So I stay out of the set list game.
00:14:22
Speaker 1: Do you change it up for the different audiences or do you kind of keep it the same for every tour, like every style?
00:14:30
Speaker 2: Not every tour, but, you know, there were some modifications. Depends, you know, if we're playing really close to another city we just did. But typically we'll stick with a set. Yeah.
00:14:40
Speaker 1: Have you been back to New Zealand since the last time you played here, just on a personal visit? Or will this be the first time?
00:14:47
Speaker 2: No. Wow. Yeah, since 2004, was it? I think it was 2004 was the last time. I think.
00:14:57
Speaker 1: Well, it will be summer when you're here. So December, it's like the weather will be beautiful, the beaches. I guess you're only going to be in Auckland for sort of like two days tops, but is there anything you're looking forward to seeing or experiencing when you're here?
00:15:11
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think because it's such a little amount of time, I'm just going to kind of see where the day takes us.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: See where the wind blows, yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
00:15:23
Speaker 1: Well, Billy, it's been absolutely fantastic to be speaking to you today. Can't wait to see A Perfect Circle and Pucifer when you come back to New Zealand. So thank you so much for your time and we'll see you in December.
00:15:35
Speaker 2: Take care. We'll see you soon.
00:15:36
Speaker 1: Thank you. Radio Hauraki's Off The Record podcast.
00:15:41
Speaker 2: Why not subscribe so they download automatically?
00:15:44
Speaker 1: And don't forget to rate us five stars.
00:15:46
Speaker 2: Thanks, mate.
00:15:47
Speaker 1: Find out more about this podcast and the people who make it at hauraki.co.nz.
Speaker 1: It's been more than 20 years since the Perfect Circle last toured New Zealand and this December they're finally back alongside Pussifer for a very special double bill and with me now is the Perfect Circle founder and guitarist Billy Howdell. Billy, thanks for your time.
00:00:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having us.
00:00:27
Speaker 1: I don't think many people realize that A Perfect Circle actually began with your demos, because at the time you were working as a guitar tech with Tool when Maynard first heard your music. What was that like for you, getting that opportunity to have your music heard and then forming A Perfect Circle?
00:00:46
Speaker 2: I can remember, pretty much remember the day in saying that probably the catalyst was become the band, which is like, I like, I like that. I could hear myself singing on that, but I just took it as, Hey, nice job with the thing you're working on. You know, that's, I didn't take it as we were going to form a band. And then 26 years later, here we are. Um, so, uh, the pressure wasn't on at that point. It's started to be after he got more serious and, He wanted to, hey, can you send me something and I'll chew on it. Then we put down two songs. He put down vocals on two songs, which was The Hollow and Arrest Us was the first two we worked on. And yeah, then it started to take shape. And then it was really exciting. Then the pressure was on in the best way. And yeah, we started figuring out how we're going to hold this off.
00:01:45
Speaker 1: When you were putting your songs together, So when you first played as A Perfect Circle, did you start with just being in studio doing, you doing guitar, him writing, putting his magic to it? How, what was that process?
00:01:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very first things were just, he was just saying on the instrumentals that I had and it was, yeah, the first couple of songs, it was just, just me with a drum machine, you know, bass on the guitar and kind of, hashing it out. And then we got Tim Alexander, who was in Primus to play drums on some stuff. And then Josh freeze got in the picture. I was working with Josh. My day job at the time was working with guns and roses in the studio, um, as a, you know, digital engineer and helping. I kind of wore a bunch of hats in there and met Josh. And he was just this amazing drummer and Maynard had mentioned him as a possible, uh, you know, possible somebody that we should check out. I had never met Josh before the Devo and tool played together on a festival. So when I bumped into him there, I was like auditioning. I was playing bass for the Guns N' Roses auditions for drummers. And he just happened to be the best one that came through the door, you know, and, uh, it was amazing to be able to play with them. And then it all came around. It's crazy to think that that was, that was 20, that was 30 years ago, right? That was, uh, Almost. That was like 1997. Wow. 1997 or 98.
00:03:20
Speaker 1: Wow. So that must have been pretty surreal for you where you're setting up a stage every night or a studio and then you're standing alongside Maynard as your creative partner in front of a live audience. How was that switch for you in your brain?
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was crazy. So that was 99 was the first time we played live. So again, I started with GNR like 97. and by the end, like by September of 99, I kind of put in my notice, you know, and, and Axl knew that, that that's where I was going to, you know, ultimately was going to be pursuing this, um, what would become perfect circle. Uh, we, in early 99, we had enough songs. I think we had like six or seven ideas together. So it just became, um, like let's just set an unrealistic deadline and put a show on the books. And that's what we did. We, we, there was a benefit show at the Viper room, which is tiny clubs, like a 200 seat club in LA. And we just, we got signed up to play and then we had to put a band together. So, uh, failure had opened for, for tool. And we knew those guys. So we called on Troy Van Leeuwen to play guitar. And I had met Paz Lanchon a couple of years before that. And I just, Paz was one of my really close friends. It's just amazing. musical floors and then it came back to going to back and forth between Tim Alexander on drums and Josh so we kind of like bounced back and forth on that and ultimately landed on Josh it was just setting that deadline of having a show on the books really helped like make this urgency that you're not just sitting you know going through endless choices of what could be we just had to we had to pin things down so it was a good.
00:05:08
Speaker 1: So that urgency kind of really built the kind of the atmosphere for what would become a perfect circle as well, eh? Like you say, having that deadline and knowing you've got something to work for. And do you think being a guitar tech gave you a different appreciation of what makes a great live performance now that, you know, you're standing under the lights instead of.
00:05:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, in ways, it certainly was good being on a crew and understanding what they are up against, what's possible, what isn't. And sometimes what to expect and what not to. And of all these things, like being a guitar tech or working in the studio and learning how to track drums and learning how to engineer, I guess there's the money-saving part of it, right? Because you're able to do everything yourself as much as you can. But then again, it's always great to have other people helping out and getting an outside perspective on things. So just working for bands was invaluable in being able to do things by myself when I needed to. And also being able to appreciate, you know, the work that everyone else puts into it. So yeah, it's, it's been great.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Cause you've, um, you've worked with artists like David Bowie, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, the, we call them the smazzapazzas, but the Smashing Pumpkins. Um, I guess you would have learned a lot watching them and seeing how they perfect their music.
00:06:36
Speaker 2: So.
00:06:37
Speaker 1: What do you think was the biggest lesson that you took away that shapes the way that you make music?
00:06:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, with all those bands. I mean, being around the quality of the music was great. You know, most of the bands, I'd say most all the bands I worked for were great musicians and made great music and had great live shows. And some were really energetic. I mean, I worked for Fishbone for years. That show was like unmatched energy. The Nine Inch Nails Downward Spiral tour was, again, almost unmatched energy. And then there's other bands that's just more refined. And, you know, the Bowie tour was sleepy in comparison, but just obviously this legend and the top of the top musicians performing. And then, you know, then you take how musicians treat their crew and how, you know, musicians that come into fame treat people, you know, you learn how you want to be and how you don't want to be. There's plenty of examples of both. So I think that's a great education, you know, to have just from being on a crew that you don't get otherwise, you know, I think, you know, I was 29 when Perfect Circle did, when we did our first show. So I was, you know, had been around a while, but I can't imagine being, 17 or 18 and having that feeling it would just it almost be too much like I don't know it's got to be hard for for people to taste that that kind of energy and expect it to be in every other area of your life and that's I think why people fall into problems you know so it's nice to be around some warnings of that yeah.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: Getting that taste for it and kind of seeing how yeah I guess it is that It's like anything they say, you know, when you start, like some people start washing the dishes in a restaurant and they kind of get a feel for how the restaurant runs before they work their way up and then they become the restaurant owner or restaurant manager and you get that appreciation. And when you go out to dine, you get that appreciation for what it's like to be a server. So you want to treat them with all the kindness and respect they deserve as well.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Of course.
00:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker 2: No, of course. Totally makes sense. Yeah. You don't want to be born into being a venture capitalist, right? That's the equivalent of becoming a narcissistic rock star from the age of 15. That would be the recipe for a terrible human.
00:09:11
Speaker 1: Well, I think through your music, I mean, I first– I think it was Three Libras was the first song that really hooked me in for you guys. And when you're listening back to Judith, Three Libras, We Can Power This– When you hear those songs today, do they still sound like the band you imagined back then? Or do you hear a band that was still finding its identity and still working out, you know, ironing out the creases and things like that? How does that sound to you when you listen back?
00:09:38
Speaker 2: I think it's aged well for me. I can still listen to it and be proud of it. And I've never really had, I've luckily not had like, oh, I would have done that different, like on any albums I've made. Not to say they're perfect, but just I've kind of let it go. I mean, you know, tap into whatever Buddhism I have in me to just go like, this is... it just once once it's done it's done and not to question it moving forward so i think um yeah that's been nice and especially listening back to a first album we we did get to play those songs live before the album came out There's only a couple exceptions of songs that got kind of done in the studio that we didn't play live on the first album. So it was just nice to have that testing ground and get that energy in there. So I'm sure that really helped to contribute to the way it sounded.
00:10:32
Speaker 1: Were you surprised at how big you guys became? Did you have any sort of insight into how big you would be?
00:10:40
Speaker 2: No, I mean, everything happened so fast in the beginning, which was, you know, wonderful. So many things aligned at the right time. You know, us having, obviously Maynard's has an incredible track record and coming from just like, coming from Tool and having him being a name with recognition. But having, signing to Virgin and having our record company chairman, Nancy Berry, take us under her wing and really, she felt like a sixth band member. She cared and pushed for us in ways that I feel really fortunate that she did. Because again, marketing is, unfortunately, I won't say everything, but it's so important. And now probably more than ever, just like how you're going to get out. And we really had that with her. And she connected us with David Fincher to have her first video done, which is still, I think, holds up. And then getting on the Nine Inch Nails tour opening, it was an amazing opportunity to get heard and there was energy right off the bat and everything kind of sprung board from that.
00:11:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely was the stars aligned for you, eh? It's so cool when that happens in life too because you would never have thought a year earlier that that was going to happen and then 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, you're just like, whoa.
00:12:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
00:12:05
Speaker 1: So your creative process, partnership with Maynard has always fascinated me because you build these incredible musical landscapes before he even starts writing the lyrics. So when you send him a new demo these days, are you still doing that or are you working on those in studio? Or do you have a kind of instinct as to where he might take it? Or does he still surprise you?
00:12:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, still sending him, you know, demos and things like that. And seeing how he responds. So, you know, now like in the first album, it was like, I had a collection of songs and he sang on every one of them, but one. And, and now it's a little more refined in that. Okay. What is he getting turned on by now? You know, where is he musically or I guess narratively, what's he looking to say and how does the songs that are presented fit into that? So in a way, it's even more tailored and fine tuned, you know, Yeah.
00:13:01
Speaker 1: When you come here in December, it is a double bill. So you'll be playing with Pussifer on the same bill. What can Kiwi fans expect when they walk into the show in December?
00:13:13
Speaker 2: Park early so you can see Pussifer. That's what you can expect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be great. I mean, they're like our extended family, obviously, and it's going to be really fun. I mean, I... We did that Susanta tour, which was Maynard's 60th birthday tour, actually for two years in a row here, a couple of years ago. And it was just such a nice time being out with people. You know, we've got family in the form of crew as well, but just having the other band, having Pussifer, which is like part of our extended family, it's just so awesome being able to travel the world with them. Looking forward to that.
00:13:55
Speaker 1: So will you be playing a mix of new and old? Because you've got Starlet.
00:13:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. Yeah, I would all but guarantee we will play that song. That's our new song. And maybe a new one. We'll see.
00:14:07
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:14:10
Speaker 2: Maybe an additional one to that. And then, you know, the set list isn't quite written yet, but we'll see. I usually leave that to Maynard to see where he's feeling, what he's wanting to sing. So I stay out of the set list game.
00:14:22
Speaker 1: Do you change it up for the different audiences or do you kind of keep it the same for every tour, like every style?
00:14:30
Speaker 2: Not every tour, but, you know, there were some modifications. Depends, you know, if we're playing really close to another city we just did. But typically we'll stick with a set. Yeah.
00:14:40
Speaker 1: Have you been back to New Zealand since the last time you played here, just on a personal visit? Or will this be the first time?
00:14:47
Speaker 2: No. Wow. Yeah, since 2004, was it? I think it was 2004 was the last time. I think.
00:14:57
Speaker 1: Well, it will be summer when you're here. So December, it's like the weather will be beautiful, the beaches. I guess you're only going to be in Auckland for sort of like two days tops, but is there anything you're looking forward to seeing or experiencing when you're here?
00:15:11
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think because it's such a little amount of time, I'm just going to kind of see where the day takes us.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: See where the wind blows, yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
00:15:23
Speaker 1: Well, Billy, it's been absolutely fantastic to be speaking to you today. Can't wait to see A Perfect Circle and Pucifer when you come back to New Zealand. So thank you so much for your time and we'll see you in December.
00:15:35
Speaker 2: Take care. We'll see you soon.
00:15:36
Speaker 1: Thank you. Radio Hauraki's Off The Record podcast.
00:15:41
Speaker 2: Why not subscribe so they download automatically?
00:15:44
Speaker 1: And don't forget to rate us five stars.
00:15:46
Speaker 2: Thanks, mate.
00:15:47
Speaker 1: Find out more about this podcast and the people who make it at hauraki.co.nz.
