Not My Narrative – “The Bootstraps Narrative” (Pilot Episode)

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Strawhut Media.
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Hey everyone, this week we're swapping our regular episode to
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bring you a pilot of a series we're imagining. It's
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called Not My Narrative. On the show, we unpacked the
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false narratives that suddenly shape our country and the counter
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narratives needed to drive real change. If you like this format,
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email us at info atnexcity dot org and help us
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find supporters to bring more episodes your way Here is
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Not My Narrative. Narratives are all around us. They're shaping
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the world we live in, but they're invisible. They are
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the stories about who we are as Americans.
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It has now messed with the American dream for so
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many people.
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They are our value.
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We have attached these layers of shame, blame, deservedness on.
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Top of receipt of any benefit whatsoever.
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Narratives are deciding what gets done. You know, how can
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you help both and how can we help you? Imagine
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if you could look into the playbook of the other side.
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You could also have a story really challenges this narrative.
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So there's sort of this narrative not true, very popular
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claim to fame not true.
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This is not My Narrative. A podcast from Next City.
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I'm Lucas Gridley, executive director of Next City. On every
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episode will break down one of these harmful ways of thinking.
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Then we'll introduce you to the change makers offering an alternative.
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Here's one you've probably heard. With hard work, poor people
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can pull themselves out of poverty. On this episode, the
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Bootstraps narrative.
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We have to just acknowledge that bootstrap narrative is so
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deeply embedded in American consciousness and in our public deaseas course,
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but we have to understand that bootstrap narrative is a
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belief system that oftentios up with other awards or other
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sentences that are coated with this idea. And I think
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for me, the single greatest idea to me embodies bootstrap
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narrative is the American dream.
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That is Luis Ortega. The Bootstrap's mindset is one of
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the many broken narratives that he's fighting. Louise founded Storytellers
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for Change, and we're going to hear from him later
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in the episode. But you heard him say that the
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Bootstraps narrative is a belief system that shows up in
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other places, and we're going to head to one of
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those places right now. Jackson Mississippi, where Aisha Nayandoro is
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working to help black moms who are struggling to pay
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the bills.
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We work with individuals who are extremely well income black
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mothers living in the stuff. So how often is that
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population actually given an opportunity where their needs are at
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the forefront of the conversation, and how often are they
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ever given an opportunity just to say, Okay, we trust you,
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we see you, we understand it. You are under resourced,
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and we understand it. You are being under resource. It's
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not for any misdoing of your own because the systematic
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failures that are in place.
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Each mom in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program receives one
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thousand dollars a month for twelve months, no strings attached.
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It's what we call guaranteed income, and it's the opposite
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of the bootstraps narrative.
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I knew immediately that what it was that we were
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doing was profound and that it would change the narrative
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in this country, but that it also would change lots
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of the women that we were working with. We have
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been a part of a larger movement that is really
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changing the narrative around cash and really changing the narrative
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around our social safety net and really calling out the
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fact that individuals are poor not because of choice or limitations,
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but because of policy feelings.
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If you believe people can really pull themselves up by
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their bootstraps, then you don't believe we need guaranteed income programs.
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Because what the American fable really says is that poverty
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is solvable and their solution is you. In other words,
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poor people are to blame for their own poverty, not me,
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not us. We don't have any responsibility, not for your poverty.
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The truth is, the bootstrap strategy has no systemic record
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of success anywhere in the United States. Can you name
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a state where every helping hand, every part of the
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social safety net was just snatched away and the poverty
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rate went down? Of course not so, where does this
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made up story come from. Let's start there with its
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real origins. This is how Representative Alexandria al Casio Cortez
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of New York described the pull yourself up by your
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bootstraps trope during a hearing on Capitol Hill.
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Miss Hutchinson, I also want to thank you about bringing
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up the poverty draft and this idea of a bootstrap.
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You know, this idea, and.
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This metaphor of a bootstrap started off as a oak
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because it's a physical impossibility to lift yourself up by
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a bootstrap, by your shoelaces.
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It's physically impossible.
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The whole thing is a joke.
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The whole thing is a joke. So joining me now
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is Next City's editorial director, Deanna Anderson. I had never
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heard that before. How about you?
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No, I hadn't either, But it turns out that she's right,
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pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Start it as a joke.
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The earliest known reference is a newspaper article in eighteen
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thirty four. It was published in The Workingman's Advocate.
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Which I'd probably have subscribed to.
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Yeah, I might have been the editorial director of that. Actually,
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they published a snarky response to a bit of breaking
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news that sounded too good to be true. A man
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named Nimron Murphy claimed he invented a perpetual motion machine,
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one that could keep working without the need for an
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engine or fuel or people.
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Okay, so the Workings Advocate, here's this claim, and responded,
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can I read the response for you?
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Yes?
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Please give me a dramatic reading.
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Okay, mister Murphy will now be enabled to hand himself
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over the Cumberland River or a barnyard fence by the
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straps of his boots.
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That I believe is eighteen thirty four level snark. But
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when did the phrase stop being a joke?
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We don't know exactly when it stopped being a joke.
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But maybe it doesn't matter, because what we know for
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sure is that President Ronald Reagan weaponized the bootstraps narrative. Now,
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I've never actually heard him use the word bootstraps, but
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he's often credited with popularizing the idea by telling the
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story in other forms over and over. Here he is
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giving a speech in nineteen eighty one to the World
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Affairs Council of Philadelphia.
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We Americans can speak from experience on this subject. When
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the original settlers arrived here, they faced a wilderness where
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poverty was there daily lot, danger and starvation their close companions.
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But through all the danger's disappointments and setbacks, they kept
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their faith. They never stopped believing that with a freedom
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to try and try again, they could make tomorrow a
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better day.
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You'd think it were part of American history textbooks. The
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way he says it, try and try again. That's what
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it takes to get out of poverty, just like the
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original settlers did.
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But the original settlers didn't lift themselves up by their bootstraps,
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you know, like that's not how it happened at all.
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It was in sixteen oh seven when the first permanent
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English settlement was established in Jamestown, Virginia, And it was
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sixteen nineteen, twelve years later when the first recorded Africans
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were kidnapped, brought to Jamestown and sold into slavery. Then
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institutionalized slavery lasted here for two hundred and forty six years.
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So Reggan's story about Americans try and trying again until
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they could lift themselves out of poverty is revisionist history, yes,
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exactly that, But it's also part of a bigger picture
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that he's trying to create. Reagan became the president who
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popularized the scare story about welfare queens who were living
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off government handouts. They're the villains that are driving up
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our bills instead of working.
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You remember this, I've definitely heard of it.
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In Chicago, they found a woman who holds the record.
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She used eighty names, thirty addresses, fifteen telephone numbers to
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collect food stamps social Security, veterans benefits for four non
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existent deceased veterans husbands, as well as welfare. Her tax
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free cash income alone has been running one hundred and
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fifty thousand dollars a year.
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And don't forget we found out later that women in
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Chicago wasn't black, she was white.
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That is ridiculous. It's all a lie, yes, But is
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that strong enough of a story to convince Americans to
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gut all of welfare? Because that's what he was trying
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to do.
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Right, And he started things in motion, But it was
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Newt Gingrich who really finished the.
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Job, right, So tell us that story.
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So, as Speaker of the House, he championed the so
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called Contract with America. Conservatives set to watch out for
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people with poor character who didn't value family of work
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because they were taking advantage of the broken big government system.
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They promised a welfare reform that would reduce dependency on
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government assistance and instead promote individual responsibility. Here he is
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in a c SPAN video promoting the so called Personal
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Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.
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I believe absolutely he is going to sign this bill,
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and I think that's good for America, and I think
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it's good for the poor to begin to replace welfare
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with the work ethic, and we ought to recognize that
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this is bill. This bill is a substantial, positive step
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to help all Americans have the right to pursue happiness.
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Sell Gross. The important thing here is he says it's
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good for poor people to replace welfare with a work ethic.
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So then what Clinton scientist?
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Yeah he does.
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If you can't beat him, join him, I guess.
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Yeah.
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It was actually President Clinton, a Democrat, who spread the
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notion of welfare to work.
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And that's why we call him the Great Communicator.
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It's hard to believe, but here is a nineteen ninety
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two campaign ad.
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So long government has failed us, and one of its
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worst figures has been welfare. I have a plan to
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end welfare as we know it, to break the cycle
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of welfare dependency. We'll provide education, job training, and childcare.
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But then those who are able must go to work,
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either in the private sector or in public service. I
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know it can work. In my state, we move seventeen
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thousand people from welfare roles to payrolls. It's time to
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make welfare what it should be, a second chance, not
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a way of life.
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End welfare as we know it move people from wealth
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welfare roles to pay rolls.
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Just stop helping people who don't deserve it.
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And that brings us back to Aisha Iandoro and Jackson, Mississippi.
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When welfare reform passed, the government created block grant programs
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so that states could spend welfare money however they chose,
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and the system still exists today in Mississippi and all
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across the country. It's cited by Aisha Iandoro as part
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of why there's no funding for guaranteed income programs, and
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it's all part of the effects of replacing welfare with
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a work ethic, which is like replacing benefits with bootstraps.
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More on that story after the break. Welcome back to
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not my narrative. Magnolia. Mother's Trust and the moms it
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serves do not get any money from those block grants
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created to replace welfare as we know it. Here again
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is Aisha and Iandoro.
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All of our money comes from private philanthropy. It is
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still something that is not state funded or federally funded.
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I am in Mississippi, So let's just be very clear
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that the conservative state and so the idea that I
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will have government funding in order just to give away
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to poor black women would be would be ludicrous and hilarious,
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probably to many of them.
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The bootstraps narrative is supposed to be about perseverance. I
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don't know about you, Deanna, but that sounds more like
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an excuse not to help people.
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Yeah, what they're really trying to say is you can't
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trust black women with the government's money.
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So as we break down the bootstraps narrative, let's turn
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our focus now to one potential counter narrative.
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And that is it takes a village. We have two
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examples of that in.
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Action, right. But first, when you say that, you know
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what I'm thinking of is Hillary Clinton's book. I don't
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know if you remember the book.
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No, I didn't read that, so tell me more.
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Oddly enough, right about the same time when Bill Clinton
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was passing welfare reform by blaming black moms for taking
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advantage of society's goodwill, his wife Hillary Clinton was making
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headlines in nineteen ninety five for her new book called
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It Takes a Village, and conservatives were furious about the title.
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Well, we want to hear from you this morning.
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What you think it takes to raise a child?
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If it takes a family or village. You can see
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the numbers there on the screen.
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Now, the whole point is depending on how you view
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a village.
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A village is a place where people can support one another,
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or village is someplace where you can dump folks and
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have somebody else take care of them.
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I am here to tell you it does not take
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a bilitage to raise a child.
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It takes a family to raise a child.
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Dump your children in the village.
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We have to put out that the idea that it
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takes a village to raise a child originated from an
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old African proverb, and they seem to imply African values
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aren't American values.
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If you ask me. They were upset because Hillary Clinton
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had perfectly identified the counter to this bogus bootstrap's mentality.
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Here she is in the very first sentence of her
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Grammy winning audiobook.
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Children are not rugged individualists. They depend on the adults
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they know and one thousands more who make decisions every
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day that affect their well being.
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Children are not rugged individualists.
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And really none of us are, which is why we
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need things like guaranteed income.
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So when we talk about poverty, we really believe that, oh,
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individuals should just work harder or work more. Is all
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of these things that are individuals should do. But the
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reality is, if we really interrogate more deeply what individuals
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are doing, we'll actually see that individuals, the majority of
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individuals that live in poverty are working. They are working more,
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but they are working in jobs where they are only
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especially here if you're in the South, where our federal
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minimal wage of seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour,
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where we don't have paid family leave, where we don't
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have access to healthcare, where there is no child care infrastructure,
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so individuals can only work so much and to the
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place where policies have to meet us where we are,
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and our policies are continuously failing to do that. So
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that's where we see it being a policy failing. But
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then also where we see individuals leaning into this narrative
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of being a personal failing. It's just the stories that
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we tell ourselves. And I feel that we tell ourselves
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these stories about poverty because it allows us to absolve
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ourselves of any guilt, and we make it feel as
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if it's something that we don't have control over, and reality, yes,
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we do. We all have control over the policies that
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are in place.
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Aisha n Iyandoro's program is the longest running example of
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guaranteed income ever conducted in the United States. She has
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plenty of statistics showing we have control over fixing poverty. Collectively,
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moms in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program have paid off
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ten thousand dollars in predatory debt, and the percentage of
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moms who said they could pay all their bills on
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time went from twenty seven percent to eighty three percent.
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The number of moms who had money saved for emergencies doubled.
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And Diana, what if someone says, hey, that's just a
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small group of moms in one city, Well.
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My response will be that we've tested something very similar
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already on a massive scale.
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Really and what was it?
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It was the Child Welfare tax Credit. It lasted just
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one year, and the US Census Bureau says that in
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twenty twenty three, the rate of poverty among children in
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the United States had more than doubled after it ended,
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going from five point two percent in twenty twenty one
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to twelve point four percent in twenty twenty two.
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I remember that I'm a parent, so we got to
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check every month for a year during the pandemic.
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Yeah, and it made a difference in the lives of
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five point two million kids.
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I used to says the Bootsteps narrative. Let's us sleep
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at night, But it's hard to imagine lawmakers sleeping at
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night knowing they put five point two million kids back
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in poverty. I guess everyone knows there are thousands of
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our neighbors living on very little money. And we can
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sleep at night if we're not responsible, if we think
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it's those people's fault and that we're better. We're not
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like them, right, We're not like them.
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We're better than them. We know better and couldn't possibly
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end up in the same situation. That's another thing. Aisha says,
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the way the government runs welfare turns recipients into subordinates.
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She calls it paternalistic.
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Because they are paternalistic. They actually don't center the needs
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of families. It is other individuals telling you what it
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is that you need, not based on any lived experiences,
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not based on understanding the dynamics of your families, not
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understanding your situation. It really is steeped in ideas and
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narratives that in a lot of places are not centered
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in trust or dignity or honoring.
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Who you are.
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They are centered in tropes and ideologies that are just false,
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and so that's why they're paternalistic in nature. A lot
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of our policies are very humanizing.
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What she's saying that boils down to a lack of trust.
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As a society, we're taught not to trust.
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People who need help, right and the lack of trust
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is so big that Aisha says she doesn't actually know
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anyone who qualifies for her state's welfare program. Instead, money
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just goes unspent sitting there in state coffers.
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And people need that money. The Magnolia Mother's Trust Program
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is proof that that money will make a difference in
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a world where it takes a village to lift people
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out of poverty.
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We have to trust each other absolutely. Thank you for
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helping us walk through all this, Deianna.
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Thank you.
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Now, to further underscore our point, we're going to visit
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an actual literal village. Dignity Village in Portland, Oregon is
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a community for people experiencing homelessness. The village has its
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own land, which is sanctioned by the city, but isn't
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run by the city. Instead, it's run by those who
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have arrived there with no place to live. Here is
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Lisa Larson.
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Well, when I first heard about Dignity Village, it was
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back when the village was first starting, and I saw
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them on the news making national headlines, and I told
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my kids, why can't those homeless people get off their
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butts and do acepthing. Well, a few years down the
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road and a few very abusive relationships, I ended up
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living out on the streets and we were reminded about
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Dignity Village. And so the man I'm with now, the
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love of my life, and I came out and checked
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into Dignity got on the wait list. And that was
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thirteen years ago, and it's definitely not what I thought.
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Lisa Larson, like many women, lost her home when she
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left an abusive relationship. She spent a year sleeping in
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public spaces like parks or in abandoned houses, which got
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her arrested twice for criminal trespassing. So when she heard
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about Dignity Village, Lisa added her name to the waitlist. Today,
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she lives there with her partner and serves as the
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village's outreach coordinator. She was even elected to serve as
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the village council's vice chairwoman. Along the way, she we
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had to unlearn all the terrible things society taught her
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about what it means to be a person without a home.
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I dare to be like all the people that you
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see out on the streets that you know, oh they're
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the homeless. You know, they're dirty, they're they're typical what
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people think of the homeless, and dignity is more like
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a huge family. We might be a little dysfunctional, but
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we all survive out here, and most of us are
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not the I hate using this word, but the typical
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homeless that people think about when they think of the unhoused.
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We're just people trying to survive.
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Yeah, you'd say there's some stigma about what it means
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to be homeless. There's a picture in people's minds that
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you think is not accurate.
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Absolutely, and it's going to be become more and more
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inaccurate as time goes on, because we're losing the middle class,
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in my opinion, and so there's going to be the
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rich people and then the poor people. And there's poor
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people are just be a paycheck away or a major
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accident or anything that's going to financially hurt them before
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they are out on the streets.
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Yeah, it's hard sometimes for people to imagine themselves in
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that position. It sounds like you were one of those
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people at some point, but then have figured out the
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fine line.
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I was, But you know, becoming homeless probably one of
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the best things that ever happened to me. I found compassion.
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I found that being human to one another is far
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better than being a stuck up little snob. So, I
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don't know, I find that I feel I'm a better
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person than I was before, even though I have, you know,
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little money, and we live in a homeless encampment. But
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it's great.
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It's great to be treated as an equal, and that
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is maybe the most important thing they do at Dignity Village,
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where it takes a village to solve homelessness. To change
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her own life, Lisa Larson had to unlearn the old
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narrative about people like her. She'd internalized what media and
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society and everyone had told her. And the truth is,
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all of us are surrounded by the bootstraps narrative. We
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all live with it. We're soaking it up all the time.
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And after the break, we're going to talk with someone
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who is dedicating his life to examining how and why
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these stories govern our lives and what we can do
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about it.
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In the US, I think often times there's this idea
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that education is the great equalizer, and in many ways
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I believe as someone that's dedicated my career to thinking
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a great deal about how narratives and specifically a boodstuff
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nrative shape our education system, I would argue that unfortunately,
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how our system is set up right now is actually
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sustaining inequity instead of addressing it.
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This is Louis Ortega. You heard from him when we
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started the episode, and in twenty ten he found it
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Storytellers for Change, a collective for people who say they're
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united by one purpose to build an empathetic and more
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equitable world. He's seen directly how narratives play out in
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our everyday lives.
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Our mission is to collaborate with change makers and organizations
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to imagine, craft and share stories to build an equitable world.
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And also that we historically think about what stories have
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been privileged in terms of institutional power, so which stories
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are disseminated through holidays, through books, through curriculum in schools.
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With his background and education and having worked in schools,
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Louis says, even well meaning people in the education system
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oftentimes fall into the trap of assigning responsibility for success
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to an individual. The community isn't responsible for your port
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card or your child's report card. You are right, Well,
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what if there's more to it than that?
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The idea, right is that everyone who who words hard
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enough kind achieve. The American dream permeates so much of
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our political culture, and it's very much ingrained in how
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we think about who should succeed and how we succeed
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in an educational setting. But the thing is, like, when
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you read between the lines the logic that's justifying this system,
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it's also the idea that if you don't succeed, it
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must be because you didn't try hard enough. In the
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education sector, there's a whole series of beliefs around what
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I call the achievement culture. There's a whole series of
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tech talks and books and professional development that focuses on
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this idea of resilience or great words that I don't
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think people oftentimes but associate with, Oh, that's reinforcing the
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book straight narrative. So without asking systemic questions, without recognizing
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the historical under resourcing of school districts that primary serve
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families that are poor or families of color. Then you
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end up justifying this idea of personal responsibility.
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Right.
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It may even sound reasonable or fair or even more right,
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this whole idea of personal responsibility. We need to teach
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hard work ethic, right, we need to teach character building.
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Right.
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These are the ways this language shows up. I think
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in very new one's ways in everyday life that we
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may not always necessarily be able to identify at the beginning.
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And I think that's a great place to think about
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how these narrative shows up.
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The other thing we're talking about is the counter narrative
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to this idea that it is just personal responsibility. You
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should pull yourself up by your bootstraps, work harder. The
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other idea is, yeah, look at the classroom, the school,
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the whole neighborhood and think about it as our collective responsibility.
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That it takes a village, that old idea about you know,
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the whole village coming together to help raise the children.
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Are there ways that in our everyday lives and classrooms
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that we're experiencing that we can help, or in school
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board meetings that we can help emphasize that it is
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all of our responsibility.
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Yeah, absolutely, And I think about it a lot through
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my personal experience, and it's important to think also about
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this through the lens of my own immigrant experience in
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this country, which very much is also driven by the
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notion of the American dream. So when I immigrated to this
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country in two thousand and one and began my high
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school journey here, I was able to perform academically quite well,
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and it was oftentimes repeated to me and reformed to
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me right that that made me worthy essentially of colorhips,
490
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:06.880
worthy of additional support, worthy of leadership opportunities. And what
491
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.599
I learned then very quickly is if I achieve academically,
492
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:13.880
that equals opportunity.
493
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:14.960
Right.
494
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.799
Therefore, I definitely want to continue doing that. And it
495
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:23.079
was oftentimes attributed to me as an individual over time
496
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.279
because I'm also an immigrant and I'm a nondocumented immigrant.
497
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:30.720
What that does to me is that it puts me
498
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:35.599
into this category that politically socially has been called the dreamers, right,
499
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:42.319
this idea that these young, successful, ideal immigrants right are
500
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:47.240
the serving of additional support, and that by the fact
501
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:51.880
that creates a separation from me and my family. I
502
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.880
am the worthy immigrant. My mom, my grandmother, other friends,
503
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.319
other family members, they are not worthy, right, And it
504
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.200
just reproduces this hierarchy, this idea that okay, you are
505
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:05.920
the serving of the American dream. Were even going to
506
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:10.039
call you a dreamer, And that became language that really
507
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.880
impacted how I saw myself, how I thought about myself.
508
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.359
It wasn't until a few years later that I began
509
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.480
to just really critically think about this and through a
510
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:24.920
lot of community organizing and mentorship and activism, that it
511
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.880
was never my intention to erase. And this is you know,
512
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:31.559
I get a little emotional when I think about this,
513
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:35.799
because it was never my intention to erase the contributions
514
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:39.319
of my mom and my grandma, and my mentors and
515
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:43.119
my teachers and how I told my story. But as
516
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:46.519
a high school student, I was conditioned very quickly to
517
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:51.160
think about emphasizing myself and my desire and using this
518
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:55.000
language that I knew had great appeal to justify also
519
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.319
a pathway for me to succeed. And I think this
520
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:02.680
is what's so insidvideos about this too, right, that we
521
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:06.680
end up even ourselves who are impacted by these systems
522
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.519
of naratives by these structures that are deeply in equable,
523
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.799
deeply harmful, win those sustaining them, because there is a
524
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:17.279
benefit to being able to drive through that particular narrative
525
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:20.480
and to use it to justify your success. So I
526
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.000
think how we come through it. You're exactly right, like
527
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.160
it does take a village, and I think we need
528
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.799
to make it visible. You know, a long time ago,
529
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.599
now it's been over a decade that I made a
530
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:35.799
very strong commitment that whenever I tell my story about
531
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.279
what it's been like for me to move through the
532
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:40.480
education system in this country, what has been like for
533
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:46.319
me as an entrepreneur, to always uplift the whole ecosystem
534
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:49.480
of people that have been part and continue to be
535
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.519
part of my success. So moving from ecosystem to ecosystem
536
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.720
is so crucial to how we make it visible that
537
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:03.440
all of us are in relationships that are impacting our pathways.
538
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:05.880
And I think what also happens when you make these
539
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:11.759
relationships visible, structures, family structures, cultural structures become visible. But
540
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.599
also it is easier than to pinpoint to the systemic
541
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:20.279
or policies that are not emphasizing those relationships or not
542
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:23.480
allowed for those relationships to help all of those strive
543
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:26.559
and flourish in our own ways.
544
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.960
You know, thank you for putting in such personal terms
545
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.400
about how insidious the narrative can be. That we do
546
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.680
need to move from an ego based system to an
547
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.680
ecosystem way of talking about our own successes. And you
548
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:46.000
talked about how it makes you feel now looking back
549
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:47.759
on your success in the way that you talk about it.
550
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.279
How do you think your other family members feel when
551
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.960
you say that they're being put on a dividing line
552
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.079
with you. Do they feel that too in a different way?
553
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:06.480
Yes, And this is a conversation that I've had many times,
554
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:11.920
not just with my family, specifically my mom, but also
555
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:18.960
with other friends and other colleagues, mentors, fellow community organizers.
556
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.920
And in a way, you know, with my mom that's
557
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:30.200
been the more emotional, complicated discussion because in a way,
558
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.319
my mom was very willing to say, yes, you succeed.
559
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.240
I came here so that you could succeed. And I
560
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.880
think part of it, again, right, is that that conditioning, right,
561
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.680
that idea that like, well, that's for an immigrant parent, right,
562
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.559
like that that that is ultimately your goal to be
563
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.279
able to do something for your children and to provide
564
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.720
them with a better life. And I challenged that. I
565
00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:00.960
challenged that so strongly. My mom's well being is interpoined
566
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.559
with mine. I need her to drive so I can drive.
567
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.519
This doesn't have to be a binary and I think
568
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:09.200
in many ways we do need to break out of
569
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:11.640
binary thinking when it comes to how we talk about
570
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:17.440
well being an achievement and success. That that is to me, right,
571
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.440
what in essence it needs to happen for us to
572
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:24.359
transform this narrative is to really think in a collectives way.
573
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:28.359
But that was difficult, right, It was difficult to hear
574
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.359
from my mom. You know, it's like that's okay, right,
575
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.559
Like if you do well, that's a good thing. And
576
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:37.519
in other ways too, right, like when I will tell
577
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:43.799
my story, you know, struggling through housing insecurity is struggling
578
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:46.319
through all kinds of and that this is the thing too, right.
579
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.200
I think it's so important to also understand about footstrap narratives.
580
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.960
They have an appeal. There is something about the story
581
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:59.079
of the single hero, the unlikely journey, the underdog that
582
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:03.400
makes it. And I remember so many times early on
583
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.920
when I was speaking very publicly about my immigration experience,
584
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.400
but driving academically and how often I would hear people
585
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.160
come to me afterwards to tell me that's so inspiring.
586
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.680
And inside, although a part of me felt like it
587
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.200
feels good to be told that you're inspiring, inside I
588
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:28.839
was hurting. I was not doing well. But I understood
589
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:32.200
in some way that I needed to sound inspiring right
590
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:33.559
to justify.
591
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:35.920
My in this.
592
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.839
Particular case, like a very specific policy agenda in terms
593
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.680
of advocating for imigrant rights, that I had to sound
594
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:46.240
inspiring to be able to justify receiving a scholarship. You
595
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:48.440
don't want to get a scholarship essay about how your
596
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.839
struggling with your mental health. You want to receive a
597
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.440
scholarship essay that tells you how, yes, you went through
598
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.920
some struggles, but you're driving and you have big dreams
599
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:58.440
and you're going to make it. Because even the entire
600
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:03.799
system that you are having to navigate, it's pointing you
601
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:07.119
time and again back towards Okay, how do you keep
602
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:11.960
emphasizing your resilience, your capacity to navigate these huge barriers
603
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:14.679
that have put in front of you. And I honestly
604
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:16.800
think that it's not only hurting individuals. I think it's
605
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:21.159
hurting all of us collectively. When we just focus on
606
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.960
those aspects of our lift experience at the expense of
607
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.239
our relationships and what are also very real and challenging
608
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.800
struggles that we need to grapple with.
609
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:33.079
That is such a paradox because the entire idea behind
610
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:36.800
the Bootstraps narrative is that it's on the individual, it's
611
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.840
their personal responsibility that made them a success. And then
612
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.880
if you read from the script like you're saying, you
613
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.360
end up actually hiding so much about yourself that you're
614
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.960
not actually who you are. You can't be you have
615
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.519
to be this other idealized version that we've created.
616
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.920
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think in some ways
617
00:34:55.960 --> 00:35:00.480
right like this this is sort of these band, right,
618
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:03.920
we do have to dance between this idea of individual
619
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:09.519
effort and how we are collectively impacting each other. That
620
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:11.400
is one of the challenges that we need to take
621
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.679
on for those of those that think about narrative and help.
622
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.559
How do we develop creative interventions to shows different ways
623
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:25.719
to discuss questions issues around achievement and our life stories
624
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.679
and what that looks like and that there is a
625
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:34.000
space for individuality in a larger, more ecosystemic, more collective
626
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:39.440
is story because I think the some of the pushback
627
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:42.679
that I've heard sometimes is precisely around this question. Right,
628
00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:45.199
It's like, well, you know, so, where does the individual
629
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:48.800
exist in a collective ast narrative. How do we still
630
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:52.719
talk about invidual traits and strengths And we absolutely can
631
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:59.079
do it, And emphasizing relationship and systems is important too,
632
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.719
so again, not one or the other. We need nertives
633
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.360
that I acknowledge the whole. That's why for me, I
634
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:09.199
go back to Joe's my example of how I've made
635
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.519
a commitment and how I tell my story to always
636
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:15.960
very specifically, highlighting and making visible is the language that
637
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.000
I use, making visible the many relationships that have supported
638
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:23.320
me in my journey. And I think that's one way
639
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:25.519
of countering that.
640
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.840
The nerve that is such good advice for everybody, Well,
641
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:33.320
louis from storytellers for change. You're the founder there. I
642
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:35.119
feel like this is so much more real now that
643
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:36.159
we've talked.
644
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.760
The one other thing that I also mentioned, just because
645
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.960
it's something that I do think it's true that even
646
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:48.119
with the narative, it takes a village that we have
647
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:53.599
to really emphasize that it's not just about raising a
648
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.360
single child, that it is about ensuring that all of
649
00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:02.880
our children drive. I u's heard that it takes a
650
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:05.000
village to raise a child and it also takes a
651
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:06.320
village to leave one behind.
652
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.440
Thanks Louise, Thank you Lucas. That's where we'll end our
653
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:15.480
examination of the bootstraps narrative. Hopefully we've helped uncover where
654
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.079
this idea comes from, that it started as a joke,
655
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.360
and where this narrative is playing out today and deciding
656
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:24.719
who among us is deserving of our help when lawmakers
657
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.440
choose which programs to fund, will be better off if
658
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:29.880
they recognize that it takes a village to pull people
659
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:33.199
out of poverty, not just better bootstraps. And I feel
660
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:34.960
like Louis has given us a lot to think about
661
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:38.000
in our own lives. How do we contribute to this narrative,
662
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.599
even in how we choose to tell our own stories.
663
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.000
We hope you enjoyed this episode. Not My Narrative is
664
00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:08.760
a Next City podcast. By the way, Next City is
665
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.800
a news organization with a nonprofit model. If you like
666
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.760
what we're doing here, please consider pitching in to support
667
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.400
our work. Visit nextcity dot org slash membership to make
668
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:21.480
a donation. Not My Narrative is produced with support from
669
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.079
PRX and is made possible in part by a grant
670
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:27.280
from the john S and James L. Knight Foundation. Our
671
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.840
audio producer is Silvana Alcala, Our show producer is Maggie Bowles,
672
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:34.440
our executive producer is Ryan Tillotson, and I'm Lucas Grinley
673
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.719
executive director for Next City Special Thanks to Jason Foster
674
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.599
of Destination Crenshaw, who helped us imagine this new show.
675
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:43.360
We'd love to hear any feedback from our listeners. Please
676
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.360
feel free to email us at info at nexcity dot
677
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.400
org and if you haven't already subscribed to Not My
678
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.400
Narrative on Apple, Spotify, Good Pods, or anywhere you listen
679
00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:02.800
to your podcasts, No