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It should almost go without saying
that someone such as myself who loves
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Halloween also loves horror movies.
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In fact, I used to do a podcast that
focused exclusively on horror films,
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particularly the Forgotten Obscurities.
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And every horror fan that's interested in
the esoteric side of the genre eventually
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becomes aware of the Guinea Pig series.
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Their reputation precedes them.
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They're often mentioned as
some of the most depraved
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films ever committed to tape.
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The Guinea Pig series has an aura about
it, and over the years it has developed
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an almost urban legend quality to it.
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To the point that it becomes difficult
to separate fact from myth and rumor.
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Much of the information floating
around about these films is inaccurate,
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and while the oft repeated lore
of the Guinea Pig films may be
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titillating, how much of it...
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Is actually true.
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Welcome to Mount Mole Hill.
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A place where even the smallest
mysteries become mountains.
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I'm Chris and this week I'm delving
into some of the controversies
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surrounding the guinea pig horror films.
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This story involves copycat killers,
famous Hollywood actors, snuff films, the
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FBI, and a healthy dose of hobby drama.
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The guinea pig films.
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Are they real snuff films?
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Did they inspire real murders?
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And did a phone call from Charlie
Sheen launch an FBI investigation?
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Let's make a mountain
out of this molehill.
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This whole thing started
with one man, Satoru Ogura.
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Ogura set out to make a series
of films that would push
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the boundaries of bad taste.
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He wanted to create the most vile
films imaginable, and decided that the
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best way to do that would be to create
a series of simulated snuff films.
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Ogura has no credits to his name
on IMDb prior to Guinea Pig, so
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presumably the start of the series is
the start of Ogura's career in film.
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After wrapping pre production for the
first entry in the series, 1985's Devil's
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Experiment, Ogura approached horror
Hino, author of Hell Baby and Panorama
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of Hell, seeking a collaboration.
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Hino was impressed with Ogura's
ideas and quickly wrote a script
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for the second film in the series,
1985's Flower of Flesh and Blood.
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The first two entries were
filmed back to back in 1985.
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Devil's Experiment, directed by
Ogura and distributed by Orange Video
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House, was released in 1985, and
sold very well on the video market.
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The Hino directed Flower of Flesh
and Blood was released soon after
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to capitalize on the success of
Devil's Experiment, and to keep
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the guinea pig momentum going.
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The runaway success of Devil's Experiment
is due not only to its effects, which
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are quite convincing even today, But also
because of its simulated snuff aesthetic.
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The original release of Devil's Experiment
had no opening titles, no credits,
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and nothing else that would otherwise
identify it as a commercial production.
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The marketing material claimed
that Devil's Experiment was
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in fact an actual snuff film.
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And the commercial viability of these
tapes was immediately apparent as Flower
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of Flesh and Blood was a top ten video
store bestseller in Japan during the
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first two months after its release.
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This isn't just among straight
to video films either.
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Flower of Flesh and Blood was even
outselling most of the major Hollywood
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releases for two months in a row in Japan.
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After the release of Flower of Flesh
and Blood, the guinea pig videos
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began to take a new direction.
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The third installment, 1986's He
Never Dies, directed by Masayuki
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Kusumi, was still extremely violent,
but it eschewed the pseudo snuff
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feel of the first two installments
for a more traditional narrative.
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And even introduced comedy into the mix.
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He Never Dies, along with the release of
a behind the scenes making of documentary
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soon after, put to rest any lingering
concerns in Japan over whether or not
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Devil's Experiment and Flower of Flesh
and Blood were authentic snuff films.
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The Guinea Pig series continued
to find success with the release
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of the fourth installment, 1986's
Devil Woman Doctor, written by
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Ogura and directed by Hajime Tabe.
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And an accompanying feature
on the making of the film.
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Devil Woman Doctor is by far the most
comedic entry in the Guinea Pig series.
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Devil Woman Doctor is often listed
as being the sixth installment in
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the series and it is even listed
as such on the Wikipedia page
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for the Guinea Pig franchise.
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Where it's placement in the series is
swapped with 1988's Mermaid in a Manhole.
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And Devil Woman Doctor is erroneously
listed as having a 1990 release date.
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This likely stems from some
incorrect information on the
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now defunct guinea pig films.
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com site that claimed to have
received production information on
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the series from producers in Japan.
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Which listed the production date
for Devil Woman Doctor as 1990.
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Based on my research,
this cannot be the case.
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For one thing, the Orange Video
House release of Devil Woman
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Doctor is distinctly labeled
number 4 on the box art.
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There are also some statements made by
director Hideshi Hino, which we will get
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into in a moment, that further support
Devil Woman Doctor as the fourth entry.
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After the release of Devil Woman Doctor,
the rights to the series were sold
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by Orange Video House to Japan Home
Video, and again, things get murky.
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Japan Home Video did not continue
to number the entries in the Guinea
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Pig series, so there is a bit of
confusion regarding the fifth and sixth
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films, Android of Notre Dame 1988.
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But Android of Notre Dame did
not get released until 1989.
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Android of Notre Dame is often called
Guinea Pig 5, but that likely comes
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from the confusion about Devil Woman
Doctor's placement as the sixth entry.
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My copy of Android of Notre Dame has
the number 5 during the title sequence,
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but it's unknown to me if that same
title appeared on the original VHS.
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Whatever the case, Android of Notre
Dame, written and directed by Kazuhito
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Kuramoto, and Mermaid in a Manhole,
written and directed by Hideshi
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Hino, would be the last two proper
releases in the Guinea Pig series.
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Both of these films continued the
departure from the roots laid down by
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Devil's Experiment and Flower of Flesh
and Blood, and employed a mixture of
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traditional narrative and extreme gore.
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Up to this point, the guinea
pig films had achieved a lot of
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underground notoriety, but were
relatively unknown to the mainstream.
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This all changed when the films
became linked to a series of
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brutal child murders in Japan.
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On July 23rd, 1989 Twenty six
year old Tsutomu Miyazaki was
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arrested after abducting a small
girl in a park, convincing her to
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strip nude, and photographing her.
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When Tokyo police searched Miyazaki's
apartment, they found evidence
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linking Miyazaki to the murders
of four girls between the ages of
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four and seven from August 1988.
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to June 1989.
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They also found 5, 736
videotapes containing hentai,
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anime, and horror films.
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Among those tapes, allegedly,
was Flower of Flesh and Blood.
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The otaku murders, as they would come
to be called, otaku being a negative
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Japanese term for people with obsessive
interests, Created a moral panic in Japan.
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There was a public outcry and many
in the media opined that the violent
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movies that Miyazaki consumed,
such as the Guinea Pig films, were
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responsible for creating a monster.
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The Tokyo Metropolitan Government
considered putting restrictions on
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the entertainment industry due to the
high profile of the Otaku murders.
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But ultimately, this did not come to pass.
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It is also often claimed that Miyazaki
went as far as to re enact one of the
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murders seen in Flower of Flesh and
Blood, but in an interview with Vice in
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2009, Hideshi Hino put these rumors to
rest, saying, A video from the Guinea
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Pig series was discovered in his room.
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But it was Guinea Pig 4, a
video I had nothing to do with.
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This statement clarifies a few
things about the Guinea Pig series.
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First, it establishes that Mermaid in
a Manhole is not the 4th entry since
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we know that Mermaid was written and
directed by Hino, and here he is saying
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he had nothing to do with Guinea Pig 4.
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Second, it establishes that none of the
real life otaku murders were reenactments
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of the guinea pig films because none of
Miyazaki's crimes match up with the events
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depicted in Devil Woman Doctor, the only
guinea pig film found in his collection.
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The unwanted notoriety of the
guinea pig series resulting from the
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Miyazaki case caused a Japan Home
Video to halt the impending release
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of the seventh entry in the series.
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The film, Lucky Sky Diamond, was
eventually released in 1990, albeit
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without the guinea pig label.
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Once again, Satoru Ogura served as
producer, and the film was written and
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directed by Izo Hashimoto, and follows
the tone of the previous four films.
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In 1991, okra created a sort of greatest
hits compilation using previous footage
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from the films in the Guinea pig series.
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Slaughter Special 1991, as it
was named, is the final video
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to bear the Guinea pig label.
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But it's not the end of our story.
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In fact, things only
get weirder from here.
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Well, the Guinea pig films had
become notorious in their Native
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Japan after the Otaku murders.
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It wasn't until copies of the
movie started making their way
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outside of Japan that they began
to take on an urban legend quality.
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In 1992, a of a copy of Flower
of Flesh and Blood and reported
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it to the Swedish police.
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In their ensuing investigation, Swedish
police sent the tape to a medical examiner
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who initially was unable to determine
whether or not the film was real.
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Flower of Flesh and Blood made headlines
again in 1992, this time in Great Britain.
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When 26 year old Christopher Berthoud
was arrested for importing snuff films
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into the country when he ordered videos
of Flower of Flesh and Blood, infant
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brain surgery, and Faces of Dissection.
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From Blackest Heart Media, British
authorities quickly determined that Flower
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of Flesh and Blood was not actually a
snuff film, but to them, it didn't matter.
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British authorities stated, This is
not an Asian girl alive being murdered,
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but something that is so well simulated
that that is the impression it creates.
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Berthoud was found guilty, but given that
Flower of Flesh and Blood was not actually
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a snuff film, authorities opted to fine
Berthoud 600 in lieu of imprisonment.
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On October 5th, 1996, TCI of California,
the then owners of the San Francisco
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cable TV system, began receiving
complaints that a snuff film had
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been aired on the Channel 53 public
access program, The Pain Factory.
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The culprit, once again, was Flower
of Flesh and Blood, and after a
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brief hubbub in the local media,
once again, everyone realized that
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it was not an authentic snuff film.
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And at this point, the whole world
should have been aware that the
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Guinea Pig films were not real.
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And yet, as Unearthed Films attempted
to release the Guinea Pig series
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officially for the first time in the U.
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S., they still ran into some issues.
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Steven Biro, co owner of Unearthed
Films, stated that he went
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00:12:29,905 --> 00:12:33,945
through a lot of trouble to find a
company that would press the DVDs.
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Bureau would send the guinea pig masters
to a DVD company and inevitably have the
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masters return to him with an apology
from the DVD company explaining that they
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would not be able to do the transfer.
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Bureau stated that even the company that
pressed the DVDs for the infamous and
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Traces of Death series would not do it.
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Fortunately, Unearthed Films was able
to find a company that would press
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the DVDs and the Guinea Pig series
finally got a proper US release in 2002.
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But these incidents, outlandish as they
may seem, are not even the strangest
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chapters in the Guinea Pig saga.
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And if you don't believe me, just
go ahead and Google Charlie Sheen
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snuff film and see what comes up.
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You'll see a bunch of short
articles like one on uproxx.
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00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:30,500
com titled, About that time Charlie
Sheen thought he watched a snuff film
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00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:32,669
and started an FBI investigation.
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00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:37,470
And you'll also see Reddit posts like
one that says, Today, I learned that
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00:13:37,470 --> 00:13:42,940
Charlie Sheen mistakenly thought he had
viewed a snuff film in 1991 and promptly
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started an FBI investigation into whether
or not a real murder had occurred.
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00:13:47,859 --> 00:13:50,540
And this is how the story
is usually presented.
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Charlie Sheen, possibly
under the influence.
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Watches a guinea pig movie, specifically
Flower of Flesh and Blood, and
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calls the FBI, which launches a
full blown investigation into the
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authenticity of the guinea pig films.
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Even the famous debunking site Snopes.
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00:14:08,354 --> 00:14:13,304
com presents the story in this fashion
by way of a 1994 article in the San
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00:14:13,305 --> 00:14:17,705
Francisco Chronicle that claims,
The FBI confiscated Sheen's tape and
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proceeded to investigate all involved.
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00:14:20,735 --> 00:14:23,495
But is that how things really went down?
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It's honestly almost impossible to tell.
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00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:31,585
And in order to understand why the
story gets so murky, we need to travel
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back in time to the early 1990s.
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00:14:35,075 --> 00:14:38,875
A time before the internet was
widespread in American households.
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00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:43,670
A time when bootleg videotapes
of obscure films were worth their
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weight in gold in certain circles.
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00:14:46,390 --> 00:14:51,390
A time when underground film magazines
competed to be their readers first
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and only source for the latest in
gross out, shot on video schlock.
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00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:00,699
And there are three such magazines
at the center of this whole Charlie
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00:15:00,699 --> 00:15:02,519
Sheen guinea pig controversy.
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00:15:03,315 --> 00:15:09,215
Deep Red, headed by Charles Chas Balan,
Film Threat Video Guide, published by
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00:15:09,225 --> 00:15:15,255
Christian Gore, and Blackest Heart, run
by Sean Smith, which is the same company
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that sold Christopher Berthoud those
tapes that got him in trouble in the UK.
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00:15:20,425 --> 00:15:25,615
It's important to remember that VHS
tapes used to be very expensive,
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sometimes costing between 50 and
100 when they were brand new.
223
00:15:30,225 --> 00:15:34,565
And even after eBay hit the scene, it
was still difficult to find certain
224
00:15:34,595 --> 00:15:36,384
tapes that were in high demand.
225
00:15:36,925 --> 00:15:41,175
The only ways to get one's hands
on films outside of the mainstream
226
00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:45,595
were knowing someone that had a
copy or ordering a bootleg tape.
227
00:15:46,095 --> 00:15:50,025
And bootleg tapes were risky because
there was no guarantee that the quality
228
00:15:50,025 --> 00:15:51,845
would even be good enough to watch.
229
00:15:52,545 --> 00:15:57,545
And magazines played a significant role
in helping underground film aficionados
230
00:15:57,545 --> 00:16:00,165
of the time acquire these bootleg tapes.
231
00:16:00,885 --> 00:16:05,135
There were more mainstream publications
at the time that focused on horror
232
00:16:05,135 --> 00:16:10,035
films such as Fangoria and Famous
Monsters of Filmland, but they focused
233
00:16:10,104 --> 00:16:12,669
mainly on popular American films.
234
00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:17,710
Magazines of the bootlegging ilk
provided access to more obscure
235
00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:22,320
films that would have been otherwise
nearly impossible to get a hold of.
236
00:16:22,689 --> 00:16:27,649
Japanese horror, Hong Kong Cat 3
movies, rare uncut versions of films
237
00:16:27,649 --> 00:16:29,559
that hadn't been officially released.
238
00:16:30,025 --> 00:16:34,325
And there was fierce competition between
magazines to obtain and sell films that
239
00:16:34,335 --> 00:16:38,944
their rivals didn't have, and at least
when it comes to Deep Red, Film Threat,
240
00:16:38,945 --> 00:16:43,795
Video Guide, and Blackest Heart, there
was apparently no love lost between them.
241
00:16:43,995 --> 00:16:48,825
And it wasn't uncommon for editorials
openly bad mouthing the editor of a
242
00:16:48,825 --> 00:16:53,424
rival publication to grace the pages
of one of these three magazines.
243
00:16:54,099 --> 00:16:57,589
In issue 4 of Film Threat
Video Guide, David E.
244
00:16:57,589 --> 00:17:02,859
Williams says of Deep Red's Chaz Ballin
that He at least appeared to be one of us.
245
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879
With Deep Red, Ballin was
a champion of horror film.
246
00:17:06,129 --> 00:17:08,310
He appeared to be a modern day Forrest J.
247
00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:11,129
Ackerman, consumed by
his love for the genre.
248
00:17:11,665 --> 00:17:13,385
Obviously this was just a lie.
249
00:17:13,775 --> 00:17:16,585
By pirating their legally
available works, Ballin is, for 18.
250
00:17:16,585 --> 00:17:20,025
95 a tape, grinning as
he f s these people over.
251
00:17:20,555 --> 00:17:24,574
In issue 2 of Blackest Heart, an
article by Sean Smith and Timothy
252
00:17:24,575 --> 00:17:29,060
Patrick says of Film Threat Video
Guide's publisher, Hypocrites suck.
253
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:31,780
Christian Gore swallows.
254
00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:35,820
As the hot sh slides down
Gore's throat, we'll update you
255
00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:37,370
on what a f ing prick he is.
256
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:39,540
Why do we have something against him?
257
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,320
Because he's a f ing prick.
258
00:17:42,380 --> 00:17:45,619
Gore is a big f ing crybaby
who stabs people in the back
259
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:47,080
whenever he can't get his way.
260
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,740
Well, we stab in the front, mother f er.
261
00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:56,350
And it is exactly this enmity and the
self aggrandizing impulse to one up
262
00:17:56,350 --> 00:18:00,850
competitors that makes it difficult
to determine how Charlie Sheen came
263
00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:04,409
into contact with the Flower of Flesh
and Blood tape in the first place.
264
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:08,330
Because each faction gives a
slightly different version of events.
265
00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:11,150
Chaz Ballon's version goes like this.
266
00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:16,990
He obtained a copy of Slaughter Special
1991 and became enamored with the series.
267
00:18:17,325 --> 00:18:20,885
He became an outspoken evangelist
for the guinea pig films and the main
268
00:18:20,885 --> 00:18:22,995
distributor of guinea pig films in the U.
269
00:18:22,995 --> 00:18:23,275
S.
270
00:18:23,765 --> 00:18:28,514
In 1991, one of the Deep Red staffers
asked Balan to put together the
271
00:18:28,514 --> 00:18:31,745
most disgusting video he could
muster as a special birthday
272
00:18:31,745 --> 00:18:35,775
present to be screened to a group of
friends at a weekend get together.
273
00:18:36,205 --> 00:18:40,265
Balan compiled a tape of horror's
greatest hits for his friend, and
274
00:18:40,265 --> 00:18:43,715
the opening segment on the tape
was Flower of Flesh and Blood.
275
00:18:44,135 --> 00:18:48,675
The tape was a smash hit, and Balance
Compilation Video began making the rounds
276
00:18:48,675 --> 00:18:50,775
in the East Coast tape trading scene.
277
00:18:51,085 --> 00:18:54,755
Charlie Sheen saw Flower of
Flesh and Blood at a party by
278
00:18:54,755 --> 00:18:56,575
way of Balance Compilation Tape.
279
00:18:57,715 --> 00:19:01,564
The Film Threat Video Guide's version
of events is slightly different.
280
00:19:02,154 --> 00:19:06,535
According to an article in issue 3 of
Film Threat Video Guide written by Rowdy
281
00:19:06,545 --> 00:19:12,189
Yates, Adam Rifkin obtained a copy of
an unspecified guinea pig film that was
282
00:19:12,189 --> 00:19:15,100
presented to Rifkin as a real snuff film.
283
00:19:15,649 --> 00:19:19,620
Doubting its authenticity, Rifkin
watched the film with Sheen,
284
00:19:19,639 --> 00:19:23,529
and neither of them were able to
satisfyingly explain how the effects
285
00:19:23,529 --> 00:19:25,219
in the film could have been achieved.
286
00:19:25,475 --> 00:19:27,505
So they reported it to the FBI.
287
00:19:28,645 --> 00:19:33,115
Blackist Heart's version is significantly
different from the other two.
288
00:19:33,635 --> 00:19:38,055
They claim in an article written by Sean
Smith and Timothy Patrick that appeared in
289
00:19:38,075 --> 00:19:44,105
issue 2 of Blackist Heart that Christian
Gore of Film Threat Video Guide wanted to
290
00:19:44,105 --> 00:19:46,165
distribute the guinea pig films in the U.
291
00:19:46,165 --> 00:19:46,425
S.
292
00:19:46,969 --> 00:19:51,419
He bought a copy of the film from Chaz
Ballin, but when Gore discovered that he
293
00:19:51,419 --> 00:19:55,989
wouldn't be able to obtain distribution
rights for the film, he gave a copy of
294
00:19:55,989 --> 00:20:01,030
Flower of Flesh and Blood to Charlie Sheen
and told him that it was a real snuff film
295
00:20:01,199 --> 00:20:03,520
and that he should report it to the FBI.
296
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:08,020
The idea being that if Film Threat Video
Guide couldn't distribute the film,
297
00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:10,210
no one else should be able to either.
298
00:20:11,179 --> 00:20:13,210
So, which version of events is true?
299
00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:18,010
Now, in my research, I was
never able to find any primary
300
00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:20,280
sources from Sheen himself.
301
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,240
It seems that, despite his penchant
for running off at the mouth,
302
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:27,790
he has never publicly commented
on the guinea pig incident.
303
00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:32,570
There was an article titled, The Snuff
Film, The Making of an Urban Legend.
304
00:20:32,935 --> 00:20:38,365
Written by Scott Aaron Stein that appeared
in the May June 1999 issue of Skeptical
305
00:20:38,365 --> 00:20:43,005
Inquirer that stated The incident
made headlines, though, and was even
306
00:20:43,005 --> 00:20:46,105
spotlighted on ABC's News Magazine 2020.
307
00:20:46,765 --> 00:20:51,164
I spent quite a bit of time trying to
track down the episode of 2020, but
308
00:20:51,205 --> 00:20:57,395
unfortunately ABC has not done a great job
of cataloging old episodes of the show.
309
00:20:57,855 --> 00:21:02,195
I reached out to Scott Ehrenstein and
asked if he had ever seen the episode of
310
00:21:02,195 --> 00:21:06,675
2020 in which the Charlie Sheen guinea
pig incident was covered or, if he
311
00:21:06,675 --> 00:21:08,955
hadn't, where he had first heard about it.
312
00:21:09,580 --> 00:21:10,840
His reply was this.
313
00:21:11,399 --> 00:21:15,790
Honestly, I don't recall, but it seems
to me numerous other articles detailing
314
00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:19,389
the controversy at the time referenced
the 2020 interview I mentioned.
315
00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:21,320
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
316
00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:23,259
And he's right.
317
00:21:23,449 --> 00:21:27,279
I did find other sources mentioning
Sheen's appearance in an episode of 2020.
318
00:21:28,345 --> 00:21:32,195
But none of them predated Stein's
article in Skeptical Inquirer.
319
00:21:32,625 --> 00:21:37,044
The only link between the Guinea
Pig films and ABC's 2020 that I was
320
00:21:37,044 --> 00:21:42,185
able to find that predates Stein's
article was an editorial written by
321
00:21:42,195 --> 00:21:45,344
Chas Ballin in issue 7 of Deep Red.
322
00:21:45,824 --> 00:21:50,465
However, this article says that it was
the Otaku murders that were featured
323
00:21:50,465 --> 00:21:53,375
on 2020, not the Charlie Sheen debacle.
324
00:21:54,004 --> 00:21:59,334
So it seems as though the Charlie Sheen
guinea pig 2020 appearance is the result
325
00:21:59,334 --> 00:22:02,304
of a game of magazine article telephone.
326
00:22:02,884 --> 00:22:07,594
And I was also unable to track down
the purported episode of 2020 that
327
00:22:07,594 --> 00:22:09,614
features the Otaku murders, so...
328
00:22:09,905 --> 00:22:13,955
Until I can find evidence that
either 2020 episode exists...
329
00:22:14,575 --> 00:22:18,985
I'll have to consider them apocryphal,
just a couple more of the many rumors
330
00:22:18,985 --> 00:22:22,885
that have been repeated time and time
again since this whole incident occurred.
331
00:22:23,855 --> 00:22:26,334
So since we don't have
a statement from Mr.
332
00:22:26,334 --> 00:22:30,165
Sheen himself, the only sources
we do have are from others
333
00:22:30,185 --> 00:22:32,144
that were purportedly involved.
334
00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:38,915
In a letter from Chas Ballin dated April
5th, 2002 published on the guineapigfilms.
335
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:43,669
com website, He reiterates his version
of events regarding a compilation
336
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:47,360
tape he made for a friend making
its way to Charlie Sheen via the
337
00:22:47,389 --> 00:22:49,100
East Coast tape trading scene.
338
00:22:49,659 --> 00:22:55,099
And contrary to the 1994 San Francisco
Chronicle article quoted by Snopes.
339
00:22:55,449 --> 00:23:00,355
com that states, The FBI confiscated
Sheen's tape and proceeded to investigate
340
00:23:00,365 --> 00:23:04,355
all involved, including Charles Ballin,
an early distributor of the film.
341
00:23:05,274 --> 00:23:09,104
Ballin said, The only semi direct
contact I ever had during the aftermath
342
00:23:09,104 --> 00:23:12,664
of this dulling debacle was a call
from the red staffer I sent the tape
343
00:23:12,665 --> 00:23:16,455
to, warning me of an impending call
from the FBI who were investigating
344
00:23:16,455 --> 00:23:18,274
the video as a real snub film.
345
00:23:18,485 --> 00:23:19,215
Police.
346
00:23:19,404 --> 00:23:20,465
Never got a call.
347
00:23:20,514 --> 00:23:20,965
Ever.
348
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,019
I lost interest immediately
and chuckled often as the s
349
00:23:24,020 --> 00:23:25,950
tstorm soon lost its momentum.
350
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,889
Also of note on guineapigfilms.
351
00:23:28,919 --> 00:23:33,299
com is a section quoting the Japanese
Cinema Encyclopedia by Weiser and
352
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:38,449
Weiser that says that Charlie Sheen
did not, in fact, call the FBI.
353
00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:43,510
Rather, Sheen contacted the Motion
Picture Association of America.
354
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,890
Who then contacted the FBI.
355
00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:51,710
FBI agent Dan Kodling informed the
MPAA that the films had already been
356
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,659
independently investigated by Japanese
authorities and the FBI, and that
357
00:23:56,659 --> 00:24:01,139
both agencies had determined that the
Guinea Pig films were completely fake.
358
00:24:02,294 --> 00:24:05,485
But back to how Charlie
Sheen actually got the tape.
359
00:24:05,965 --> 00:24:10,155
We have Chaz Balin's version involving
a compilation tape circulating
360
00:24:10,155 --> 00:24:11,725
through the Tape Trading Network.
361
00:24:11,985 --> 00:24:15,595
We have Film Threat Video Guide's
version that the tape was given to
362
00:24:15,625 --> 00:24:17,975
Charlie Sheen by director Adam Rifkin.
363
00:24:18,365 --> 00:24:21,495
And we have Blackest Heart's
version, which claims that the tape
364
00:24:21,495 --> 00:24:25,865
was sold by Chaz Ballin to film
threat video guys Christian Gore,
365
00:24:25,945 --> 00:24:27,855
who then gave it to Charlie Sheen.
366
00:24:28,565 --> 00:24:31,325
Each account is quite
different from the other two.
367
00:24:31,424 --> 00:24:35,505
And the question becomes, how does
someone coming at this over 30
368
00:24:35,514 --> 00:24:37,585
years later begin to untangle it?
369
00:24:38,315 --> 00:24:42,065
There are still so many questions
left unanswered, and the number
370
00:24:42,065 --> 00:24:45,805
of people who could answer those
questions is vanishingly small.
371
00:24:46,495 --> 00:24:51,774
Chas Ballin passed away in 2009,
and Sean Smith, by all accounts,
372
00:24:51,805 --> 00:24:54,524
retired from public life in 2019.
373
00:24:55,225 --> 00:24:59,745
Which leaves just one person involved,
Film Threat Video Guide's Christian
374
00:24:59,745 --> 00:25:03,215
Gore, who would be able to shed
some light on this whole affair.
375
00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,105
Now up to this point...
376
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:09,880
I have been calling him Christian Gore,
because that's how he was credited
377
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,580
in the Film Threat Video Guide.
378
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,770
But you may know him as Chris
Gore, writer, director, author,
379
00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:21,400
podcast host, and former contributor
to G4's Attack of the Show.
380
00:25:21,739 --> 00:25:27,640
Well, what's interesting about the
Charlie Sheen, guinea pig video,
381
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:32,129
uh, FBI debacle is that I'm the
one that got him the videotape.
382
00:25:32,669 --> 00:25:36,159
That's the voice of Chris Gore,
who was generous enough to take
383
00:25:36,159 --> 00:25:39,629
some time out of his day and talk
to me about this whole fiasco.
384
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:43,989
And the first question I had about
the whole thing is, what exactly
385
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,949
were the contents of the tape?
386
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:52,300
So there, there's also in my research, two
versions going around about the contents
387
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,409
of the tape that Charlie Sheen watched.
388
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:57,989
One version is that it was
sort of a compilation tape put
389
00:25:57,989 --> 00:26:03,089
together by Chaz Ballon of Deep
Red that it just included footage.
390
00:26:03,109 --> 00:26:07,455
And the other version is that it
was just, you know, uh, Bootleg
391
00:26:07,465 --> 00:26:10,815
duplicate of an entire guinea pig film.
392
00:26:10,815 --> 00:26:13,185
So yeah, it was the guinea pig film.
393
00:26:13,235 --> 00:26:14,665
It wasn't his compilation.
394
00:26:14,675 --> 00:26:18,085
It was the guinea pig film
because I had the guinea pig film.
395
00:26:18,685 --> 00:26:24,095
So, and I think the way I got it was we
would trade tapes with so many people.
396
00:26:24,105 --> 00:26:27,235
David E Williams, who was
the editor, editor in chief
397
00:26:27,264 --> 00:26:28,564
of film threat video guide.
398
00:26:28,824 --> 00:26:33,665
I believe he got the guinea pig
film from Richard Kern or someone
399
00:26:33,665 --> 00:26:34,635
from the cinema of transgression.
400
00:26:35,034 --> 00:26:36,164
It might've been Nick said.
401
00:26:36,504 --> 00:26:39,155
At the time we were trading
tapes with so many people.
402
00:26:39,314 --> 00:26:42,764
So, so that's what I was
doing, you know, rather.
403
00:26:42,784 --> 00:26:46,754
And then the thing was, is they
would send me their weird tapes.
404
00:26:47,395 --> 00:26:50,675
So it really was, the
currency was weird videotapes.
405
00:26:50,715 --> 00:26:53,445
That's how we, that's
how we did all of this.
406
00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:59,075
And the movie in question, it was
flower of flesh and blood, right?
407
00:26:59,424 --> 00:27:02,895
It's like a Sam, a guy
dressed up as a Samurai.
408
00:27:03,165 --> 00:27:03,385
Yes.
409
00:27:03,445 --> 00:27:03,905
That's it.
410
00:27:04,675 --> 00:27:05,055
Yeah.
411
00:27:05,564 --> 00:27:10,095
So I was friends with Adam Rifkin
who, uh, I'm still friends with him.
412
00:27:10,235 --> 00:27:15,034
Uh, he's, he's really evolved
into an exciting indie filmmaker.
413
00:27:15,504 --> 00:27:20,725
So, so Adam Rifkin had made a, a
movie called invisible maniac, which
414
00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:22,965
was basically an invisible man story.
415
00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:26,824
Kind of, it was an invisible
man, horror film mixed with.
416
00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:29,820
A TNA teen sex comedy.
417
00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:33,460
It was a guy who got invisible
and basically felt up young women
418
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,120
and they got naked in the movie.
419
00:27:35,609 --> 00:27:39,200
Um, there was actually an adult film
actress whose name escapes me who
420
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,590
starred in the invisible maniac.
421
00:27:40,859 --> 00:27:42,100
And that's how I met Adam.
422
00:27:42,459 --> 00:27:43,899
He made that film.
423
00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:48,670
Then he went off and directed
the chase with a Charlie Sheen.
424
00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:51,020
And then he worked on a film.
425
00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:53,455
Uh, called the dark backward.
426
00:27:53,765 --> 00:27:57,235
Um, and we were going to have
that be our cover story for
427
00:27:57,235 --> 00:27:58,425
film threat, the first issue.
428
00:27:58,425 --> 00:27:59,855
And we covered the movie.
429
00:27:59,855 --> 00:28:01,735
It unfortunately just
didn't make it to the cover.
430
00:28:02,165 --> 00:28:04,865
Um, we had to put something
more mainstream on, right.
431
00:28:05,245 --> 00:28:08,945
Uh, just to sell mags, but we still
covered the movie extensively inside,
432
00:28:08,945 --> 00:28:12,515
but I became friends with Adam
and Adam and I, we would just get
433
00:28:12,515 --> 00:28:14,815
into deep discussions about like.
434
00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:19,530
You know, just weird videos
and weird films we had seen.
435
00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:25,100
And, you know, back when I lived in
Michigan in the eighties, I was obsessed
436
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,860
with tracking down weird videos.
437
00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:32,559
And a lot of it was you would
trade tapes with people.
438
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,320
So for example, I was trading tapes with
a guy named Steve Bassett, who was a comic
439
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,340
illustrator for swamp thing, working with.
440
00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:44,045
With Alan Moore, and he had sent me
Legend of the Overfiend, which was not
441
00:28:44,055 --> 00:28:45,735
legally available in the United States.
442
00:28:45,735 --> 00:28:49,944
It's, uh, one of the, one of the, it was
the first hentai thing I'd ever seen.
443
00:28:50,514 --> 00:28:54,754
It was a hentai animated film
feature, which was just bizarre.
444
00:28:54,754 --> 00:28:56,395
It was like part Akira with hentai.
445
00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:57,014
It was weird.
446
00:28:57,015 --> 00:28:57,614
So...
447
00:28:58,345 --> 00:29:00,585
I loved Legend of the Overfiend.
448
00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:01,875
I thought it was fantastic.
449
00:29:02,285 --> 00:29:06,485
So Steve Bassett sent me that, and then
I sent him weird tapes that I had made.
450
00:29:06,835 --> 00:29:09,284
I did as a two part series of films.
451
00:29:09,314 --> 00:29:13,765
I called, um, I was inspired by
William Burroughs and William Burroughs
452
00:29:13,765 --> 00:29:18,004
had done a thing where he created a
thing called cut up tapes, he would
453
00:29:18,004 --> 00:29:20,034
take audio and he would edit it.
454
00:29:20,665 --> 00:29:24,665
And with these weird contrasts,
it'd be like a song and then, you
455
00:29:24,665 --> 00:29:29,775
know, some industrial machinery
and then him reading poetry.
456
00:29:30,025 --> 00:29:33,034
And it was the, he created this,
William Burroughs had created these
457
00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:35,985
bizarre series of audio cut up tapes.
458
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:38,510
And I was so inspired by that.
459
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:39,800
I thought that is weird.
460
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:41,870
I'm going to do the video version of that.
461
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,080
And so while I was in college,
I was collecting like all this
462
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,510
weird, these weird footage.
463
00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:55,529
Like I had, I had recorded every time
someone who looked punk rock or new
464
00:29:55,530 --> 00:30:01,590
wave was on the news or in a TV show,
I saved it and I created a montage.
465
00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:05,750
Cathode fuck and TV sphincter
were the names of the two tapes
466
00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:08,020
and it was just weird stuff.
467
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:12,300
I had like a mcdonald's training
film on courtesy and whatnot.
468
00:30:13,035 --> 00:30:16,265
And I intercut that with
this punk rock footage.
469
00:30:16,465 --> 00:30:18,355
There was purpose behind it.
470
00:30:19,155 --> 00:30:24,815
That was like this whole culture
of trading tapes was a big deal.
471
00:30:24,835 --> 00:30:28,394
And I gave, I gave Adam cathode fuck.
472
00:30:28,574 --> 00:30:33,381
I gave him TV sphincter and he'd
always ask me like, Hey, then he says
473
00:30:33,381 --> 00:30:38,705
to me, he goes, look, Harley Sheen is
really into these underground videos.
474
00:30:38,725 --> 00:30:41,935
He loves underground videos.
475
00:30:43,425 --> 00:30:46,005
How can we like, like,
do you have anything?
476
00:30:46,005 --> 00:30:51,785
And I was like, one of the films that came
to me, um, was a movie called Guinea pig.
477
00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:57,550
And I, I promptly made a copy
of it, gave it to Adam Rifkin
478
00:30:57,790 --> 00:30:59,210
to give to Charlie Sheen.
479
00:31:00,330 --> 00:31:03,679
So that pretty much clears up
how Charlie Sheen came into
480
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,530
possession of the guinea pig tape.
481
00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:09,289
Although there have been a few
alternate versions of this particular
482
00:31:09,289 --> 00:31:13,330
series of events, Chris Gore's
version is the only one that could
483
00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:15,470
possibly be corroborated by others.
484
00:31:16,215 --> 00:31:20,755
Adam Rifkin and Charlie Sheen both
could refute Gore's story, but to
485
00:31:20,755 --> 00:31:24,934
my knowledge, neither of them have,
despite ample opportunity to do so.
486
00:31:25,245 --> 00:31:29,594
As this is a story that has been a
matter of public record since at least
487
00:31:29,595 --> 00:31:34,444
2013, when Gore briefly recounted
the incident on a track off his
488
00:31:34,465 --> 00:31:39,235
spoken word album, Celebrity's Poop,
titled, Video Dealer, True Story.
489
00:31:40,465 --> 00:31:43,765
The next lingering question left
to answer about this whole incident
490
00:31:43,775 --> 00:31:46,665
is, How did the FBI get involved?
491
00:31:47,595 --> 00:31:54,775
Apparently, according to Adam Rifkin,
he was so, Charlie was so shocked upon
492
00:31:54,775 --> 00:31:58,185
watching this film, he was so taken aback.
493
00:31:58,535 --> 00:32:02,025
Even though he'd been watching
these weird underground VHS tapes
494
00:32:02,415 --> 00:32:07,534
I was slipping to Adam, he thought
he had witnessed an actual murder.
495
00:32:08,624 --> 00:32:13,635
So, what Charlie Sheen ended up doing
was, he had a friend at the FBI.
496
00:32:14,425 --> 00:32:17,135
Well, what happened was,
they took it very seriously.
497
00:32:17,565 --> 00:32:20,785
The FBI said you need to
hand over the original tape.
498
00:32:21,485 --> 00:32:28,315
So, um, after Charlie Sheen had reported
this, I was contacted by the FBI
499
00:32:28,795 --> 00:32:31,785
after Adam gave them my phone number.
500
00:32:32,374 --> 00:32:36,794
I did an interview with the
FBI discussing this tape.
501
00:32:37,375 --> 00:32:39,105
I handed over the original tape.
502
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:44,420
And after a forensic analysis
of the video, they determined
503
00:32:44,420 --> 00:32:45,970
that it was in fact fake.
504
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:53,740
There's sort of this apocryphal story of
Charlie Sheen appearing on 2020 talking
505
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:58,620
about this that seems to originate from
an article written by Scott Ehrenstein,
506
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,070
who you might know is the author of like
the Gorehounds Guide to Splatter Films.
507
00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:04,320
And those kind of books.
508
00:33:04,550 --> 00:33:07,170
Do you remember anything
like that happening?
509
00:33:07,170 --> 00:33:10,560
Or did you see this supposed 2020 episode?
510
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:12,710
I don't know about the 2020 episode.
511
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,230
I do remember that there was a news
report and I just remember thinking,
512
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:18,199
well, they're going to talk about film.
513
00:33:18,229 --> 00:33:19,380
I didn't even care about me.
514
00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:19,890
Right?
515
00:33:20,179 --> 00:33:21,510
I just cared about film threat.
516
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:21,874
Like, yeah.
517
00:33:23,095 --> 00:33:23,965
We need some press.
518
00:33:24,025 --> 00:33:25,455
We need press for film threat.
519
00:33:25,465 --> 00:33:27,785
Any press is good press at the time.
520
00:33:28,275 --> 00:33:31,585
Um, and this was a big
news story and film threat.
521
00:33:31,585 --> 00:33:32,425
Wasn't a part of it.
522
00:33:32,484 --> 00:33:33,634
I wasn't a part of it.
523
00:33:33,864 --> 00:33:38,834
And that was disconcerting having
said that, um, there was a, there
524
00:33:38,835 --> 00:33:45,735
was a news story that broke basically
the, the FBI had given Charlie Sheen.
525
00:33:46,445 --> 00:33:53,185
Uh, like a good citizen commendation for
turning over this video and for alerting
526
00:33:53,185 --> 00:33:58,815
the FBI to this, and it made it onto one
of those magazine style exploitation shows
527
00:33:58,824 --> 00:34:04,894
like hard copy, none of, you know, my
involvement in any of that or film threat
528
00:34:04,895 --> 00:34:06,915
was completely excised from the story.
529
00:34:07,255 --> 00:34:12,845
The angle, the angle that they took for
this news story on television was Charlie
530
00:34:12,895 --> 00:34:15,855
Sheen is a good citizen and a good person.
531
00:34:16,095 --> 00:34:18,575
Because he worked with the
FBI and he helped them.
532
00:34:20,015 --> 00:34:24,555
Apart from the version of this part of
the story provided by Weiser and Weiser
533
00:34:24,555 --> 00:34:28,874
in the Japanese Cinema Encyclopedia which
states that Sheen turned the tape over to
534
00:34:28,874 --> 00:34:34,165
the MPAA who then turned it over to the
FBI, the other accounts of how the tape
535
00:34:34,175 --> 00:34:38,725
made its way to the FBI seem to be in
agreement with Gore's retelling of events.
536
00:34:39,105 --> 00:34:41,805
At least in terms of the
bare bone facts of it all.
537
00:34:42,435 --> 00:34:44,854
But each version has its own spin to it.
538
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,950
Either highlighting or minimizing
different individuals involvement, and
539
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:53,580
attributing different, sometimes nefarious
motivations to the players involved.
540
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:58,210
And it all seems to stem from the fact
that, as I've discussed previously,
541
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:02,180
the writers and publishers of
these different Indie mags didn't
542
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,100
seem to like each other very much.
543
00:35:04,650 --> 00:35:09,855
So what was the relationship like
between Underground film magazines back
544
00:35:09,855 --> 00:35:14,065
then, because in researching this, I've
come across articles in Film Threat
545
00:35:14,065 --> 00:35:20,025
Video Guide, Blackest Heart, and Deep
Red, where writers of one magazine
546
00:35:20,025 --> 00:35:24,854
are openly bashing writers of another
magazine, and coming from the outside
547
00:35:24,865 --> 00:35:29,550
is It's hard to tell if this was
all an end joke or was there genuine
548
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,260
animosity between you guys back then?
549
00:35:32,970 --> 00:35:35,360
I think it was animosity with
some of the other people.
550
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,510
There wasn't with me.
551
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,560
We became more of a target because
in the space we were perceived
552
00:35:40,569 --> 00:35:42,600
to be among the better magazines.
553
00:35:42,899 --> 00:35:44,229
So we were always a target.
554
00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:45,940
We had a target on our back.
555
00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:49,810
I would kind of brush it off, make
them look stupid by making a joke.
556
00:35:50,175 --> 00:35:54,255
In my magazine and having the last
word and then that was it, but I would
557
00:35:54,255 --> 00:35:58,804
never actively go after someone because
I thought that was kind of a waste.
558
00:35:58,945 --> 00:36:04,075
Like, I don't want to actively go
after some movie magazine, but if
559
00:36:04,075 --> 00:36:07,754
they send me something or try to fuck
with me, I'll fuck with them back.
560
00:36:07,754 --> 00:36:12,655
But in a way that is funny, because
readers don't care about that.
561
00:36:12,695 --> 00:36:18,494
Like the readers of film thread do not
care about any of this gossip bs drama.
562
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:19,380
Right?
563
00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:21,090
They don't, at the end of
the day, they don't care.
564
00:36:21,470 --> 00:36:25,110
If I can turn it into something
funny and a joke, that's that
565
00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:30,040
was always what my tactic was,
was to just make it into a joke.
566
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:32,070
I just wanted to be entertaining.
567
00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:33,630
I wanted film threat.
568
00:36:33,869 --> 00:36:40,039
I wanted people to read film threat cover
to cover and with their mouth a gape at
569
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:42,280
I can't believe a magazine is doing this.
570
00:36:42,905 --> 00:36:46,835
I want to sort of go back to the rivalry
between film magazines, because in
571
00:36:46,835 --> 00:36:50,585
an issue of Blackest Heart there's
an article written by Sean Smith and
572
00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:55,705
Timothy Patrick where they're really bad
mouthing you, personally, saying that
573
00:36:55,715 --> 00:37:00,385
basically you bought a copy of one of
the guinea pig films from Chaz Ballon.
574
00:37:01,175 --> 00:37:04,615
Because you wanted to see about
distributing it through Film Threat
575
00:37:04,615 --> 00:37:09,344
Video Guide, but when you realized that
you weren't going to be able to get
576
00:37:09,345 --> 00:37:13,825
the distribution rights, you gave the
film to Charlie Sheen and encouraged
577
00:37:13,825 --> 00:37:18,664
him to report it to the FBI as sort of
a, a way to get back at Chaz Ballin.
578
00:37:19,355 --> 00:37:20,575
Is there any truth to that?
579
00:37:21,105 --> 00:37:23,145
That, that is not true at all.
580
00:37:23,835 --> 00:37:25,365
That is completely false.
581
00:37:25,365 --> 00:37:26,665
I don't know why they
would make that assumption.
582
00:37:26,665 --> 00:37:31,375
That seems pretty stupid, but no, I, um,
one, no, I didn't want to like, look,
583
00:37:31,385 --> 00:37:35,635
we wanted to distribute films legally
in the U S where we knew the filmmaker.
584
00:37:35,755 --> 00:37:37,235
I didn't know who made guinea pig.
585
00:37:37,485 --> 00:37:38,874
So I know Richard Kern.
586
00:37:38,905 --> 00:37:41,445
I know you're boot caret, right?
587
00:37:41,485 --> 00:37:44,755
Like I knew Steve Wang, it was filmmakers.
588
00:37:44,755 --> 00:37:45,425
We knew.
589
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,990
Who owned the movie and those are the
people, the filmmakers we dealt with.
590
00:37:50,990 --> 00:37:53,890
I didn't know the people
who created guinea pig.
591
00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:57,290
And also that probably would
have been a bridge too far for
592
00:37:57,350 --> 00:37:59,720
us because of the content of it.
593
00:37:59,959 --> 00:38:00,949
I mean, look, yes.
594
00:38:01,050 --> 00:38:06,080
Even coming from me, I distributed
at the time necromantic, right?
595
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,230
But, uh, you know, necromantic
was, it's obvious when you watch
596
00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:13,390
necromantic, it's a narrative film.
597
00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:14,420
It's a story.
598
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:21,500
You know, it's a horror film shot in super
eight, but, uh, yeah, uh, that's not true.
599
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:27,330
That's someone who doesn't know anything,
uh, coming up with some opinion about
600
00:38:27,350 --> 00:38:28,910
something they don't know anything about.
601
00:38:29,399 --> 00:38:32,229
Uh, I was there and yeah, I
was not trying to do that.
602
00:38:32,430 --> 00:38:37,370
That's, um, that's, uh, that's what they
call make news, which make news is when
603
00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:41,400
you don't have the facts, you make up
news, you fill in the gaps, but your
604
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,940
assumptions are based on your biases.
605
00:38:43,620 --> 00:38:43,970
Right.
606
00:38:44,110 --> 00:38:46,710
So they had a bias towards
making me look bad.
607
00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:51,110
And so that's kind of how they, how
they couched that that's pretty dumb.
608
00:38:51,985 --> 00:38:57,925
Look, professional jealousy and ankle
biters have plagued me my entire career.
609
00:38:58,205 --> 00:39:04,584
My policy is always to just ignore
idiots and, uh, they can try to keep up.
610
00:39:04,585 --> 00:39:05,324
I don't care.
611
00:39:05,614 --> 00:39:10,894
Um, because I have built film threat,
the brand over the years, I've always
612
00:39:10,894 --> 00:39:12,975
been a target, I've always been a target.
613
00:39:13,470 --> 00:39:14,850
And I don't care.
614
00:39:14,910 --> 00:39:18,950
I, I always say, like, I, you know, I'm
not trying to get into big fights with
615
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:23,739
people, but at the time I recognized
that I was definitely obnoxious.
616
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:28,129
I was definitely pushing the
limits in certain arenas and
617
00:39:28,129 --> 00:39:29,270
I pissed some people off.
618
00:39:29,379 --> 00:39:31,399
And, you know, if you're in this space.
619
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,590
May happen, so, and it happened.
620
00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:39,520
I think it's important to point out
that Gore was in his early 20s when
621
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,550
he founded Film Threat and, at least
relative to other indie mags of the
622
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:46,739
time, Film Threat was quite successful.
623
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,449
He was the new kid on the block and,
in his own words, was a bit obnoxious.
624
00:39:51,979 --> 00:39:55,510
And a lot of what Film Threat and Film
Threat Video Guide were doing at the
625
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:58,080
time was meant to push people's buttons.
626
00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:01,520
So it's no surprise
that they actually did.
627
00:40:02,170 --> 00:40:05,810
I love going to conventions and I was
there and sometimes, you know, sometimes I
628
00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:10,249
would catch people, you know, at the time
going to conventions, then selling bootleg
629
00:40:10,250 --> 00:40:12,270
copies of movies that we were selling.
630
00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:16,509
And that was annoying to me because we
got that we were sending money to the
631
00:40:16,509 --> 00:40:20,070
filmmakers and these bootleggers were
not sending money to the filmmakers.
632
00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:23,410
I had heard that Chaz
Balin had beef with me.
633
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,730
Um, and I didn't, I didn't exactly
understand why he had beef with me, but
634
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:33,050
it sounds like Chaz looking at what he,
his work, the had beef with a lot of
635
00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:37,880
people, like he was, there were some
constant drama with him back in the day.
636
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:41,309
I was at a horror convention
and Chaz Ballin was there and
637
00:40:41,309 --> 00:40:43,120
he tried to pour a beer on me.
638
00:40:43,810 --> 00:40:45,560
I was at a horror convention in LA.
639
00:40:45,610 --> 00:40:47,570
I heard that Chaz Ballin
was there as a guest.
640
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:49,470
Uh, I'm like, okay, cool.
641
00:40:49,470 --> 00:40:49,830
Whatever.
642
00:40:49,870 --> 00:40:50,739
And some.
643
00:40:51,535 --> 00:40:57,725
Some weird simpy fan found me, and it's
like, Oh, I'm gonna go get Chaz Balin.
644
00:40:57,955 --> 00:40:59,425
It's just this wimpy kid.
645
00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:01,425
And like, all right, well, cool.
646
00:41:01,425 --> 00:41:05,185
And Chaz Ballant, by the way, he's like,
looks like a big biker at the time.
647
00:41:05,185 --> 00:41:09,715
I know he's passed away, um, uh,
years ago, but he was a big guy.
648
00:41:09,745 --> 00:41:11,305
I'm like, look, I'm not small.
649
00:41:11,315 --> 00:41:12,255
I'm five 10.
650
00:41:12,915 --> 00:41:21,495
Uh, uh, but, uh, you know, um, he's over
six foot and looks like, uh, a biker dude.
651
00:41:22,075 --> 00:41:24,875
So, you know, there you go.
652
00:41:25,445 --> 00:41:28,895
Which is fine, but he, um, he
came up to me and he had a beer.
653
00:41:28,905 --> 00:41:30,545
He went to pour it on me.
654
00:41:30,815 --> 00:41:35,384
I deflected his hand and the beer spilled
all over the simpy guy that got him.
655
00:41:35,705 --> 00:41:36,565
It was awesome.
656
00:41:36,885 --> 00:41:40,555
I could not have, you know, one of
those things where it's like, you
657
00:41:40,565 --> 00:41:44,105
think of the thing you should have
said in the moment, or God, I should
658
00:41:44,105 --> 00:41:45,415
have done this instead of that.
659
00:41:45,555 --> 00:41:46,905
I actually did that thing.
660
00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:49,830
And it's one of the few times
I can think like, Oh my God,
661
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:51,370
it worked out perfectly for me.
662
00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:53,540
He tried to, went to pour a beer on me.
663
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:56,920
I just, I just moved his hand a little
bit and it went all over the doodoo.
664
00:41:57,110 --> 00:42:00,930
Like went to get Chaz Ballant to
tell on, you know, like Gore is here.
665
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,220
Um, I mean, that was like, whatever people
can have their different interpretations.
666
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,640
I feel it's my obligation
to tell you the truth.
667
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:13,370
As I see it happen to me, and I can
only tell you the one side of my
668
00:42:13,370 --> 00:42:17,409
story, like Chaz Balin can talk about
what an asshole I was, or he can talk
669
00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:20,770
about, like, he can make assumptions
about what I was trying to do.
670
00:42:20,770 --> 00:42:23,099
I was trying, I wasn't trying
to ruin anybody's life.
671
00:42:23,099 --> 00:42:27,830
I was trying to entertain, uh, Charlie
Sheen via my buddy, Adam Rifkin.
672
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:29,060
That's it.
673
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,780
Like, I was trying to give him a video.
674
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:33,850
I didn't think much of
it, um, at the time.
675
00:42:34,340 --> 00:42:37,640
So, and it's not like anybody
went to prison over it.
676
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,020
I mean.
677
00:42:38,865 --> 00:42:43,625
They ended up basically determining,
you know, it wasn't a real thing, so
678
00:42:44,205 --> 00:42:48,195
they still, Charlie Sheen came out
looking like just a guy who likes
679
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,395
to watch weird videos, I guess.
680
00:42:50,305 --> 00:42:53,845
And if you've ever seen Flower of
Flesh and Blood and you're wondering
681
00:42:53,845 --> 00:42:58,795
how Charlie Sheen could have possibly
mistaken it for a real snuff film, bear
682
00:42:58,795 --> 00:43:01,345
in mind, this was the early nineties.
683
00:43:02,165 --> 00:43:05,915
The Guinea pig films had never
been released outside of Japan, and
684
00:43:05,915 --> 00:43:09,335
the Otaku murders didn't receive
a lot of attention in the West.
685
00:43:09,995 --> 00:43:13,985
The number of people who knew about
the Guinea pig films, even in hardcore
686
00:43:13,985 --> 00:43:16,115
horror circles, was very small.
687
00:43:16,805 --> 00:43:22,255
Now, Guinea pig, to be clear,
is a Japanese fake snuff film.
688
00:43:22,890 --> 00:43:23,975
It is not real.
689
00:43:24,495 --> 00:43:31,025
However, if you've on VHS,
copied it, copied it, copied it.
690
00:43:31,355 --> 00:43:33,065
I can see how someone.
691
00:43:41,605 --> 00:43:45,884
So, after all this, what does the
true version of events in the Charlie
692
00:43:45,884 --> 00:43:48,134
Sheen Guinea Pig affair look like?
693
00:43:48,685 --> 00:43:50,105
It goes something like this.
694
00:43:51,055 --> 00:43:54,085
The editor in chief of Film
Threat Video Guide, David E.
695
00:43:54,085 --> 00:43:58,395
Williams, got a copy of Flower of
Flesh and Blood via tape trading,
696
00:43:58,525 --> 00:44:00,865
possibly from Richard Kern or Nick Zedd.
697
00:44:01,420 --> 00:44:01,900
David E.
698
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:04,730
Williams gives Chris
Gore a copy of that tape.
699
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:07,780
Chris Gore gives a copy to Adam Rifkin.
700
00:44:08,410 --> 00:44:10,680
Adam Rifkin gives it to Charlie Sheen.
701
00:44:11,250 --> 00:44:13,500
Charlie Sheen gives it to the FBI.
702
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,120
The FBI, like many other law
enforcement agencies before them,
703
00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:22,539
determines that Flower of Flesh
and Blood is not a real snuff film.
704
00:44:23,020 --> 00:44:27,800
The media catches wind of the incident and
forms it into a story about a Hollywood
705
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,900
actor being an upstanding citizen.
706
00:44:30,505 --> 00:44:34,925
Time passes and the public perception
of Charlie Sheen drastically changes.
707
00:44:35,205 --> 00:44:39,025
So the story is now reframed as
just another instance of Sheen's
708
00:44:39,164 --> 00:44:41,165
well documented eccentricity.
709
00:44:41,715 --> 00:44:46,075
And the particulars and nuance of
the story are all but lost to time,
710
00:44:46,364 --> 00:44:50,665
surviving only in the memories of the
scant few people who were actually there.
711
00:44:51,535 --> 00:44:54,625
And it's a shame, really,
because, at least in this case,
712
00:44:55,005 --> 00:44:56,115
the truth of the matter...
713
00:44:56,425 --> 00:45:00,505
Is much more interesting than the
urban legend that was formed out of it.
714
00:45:07,005 --> 00:45:11,055
Mount Mole Hill is written,
produced, and edited by me, Chris.
715
00:45:11,175 --> 00:45:13,624
With music by myself and Alex Painter.
716
00:45:14,574 --> 00:45:18,654
A very special thank you to Chris Gore
for sitting down for an interview with me.
717
00:45:18,845 --> 00:45:21,224
I'll post a link to the full
interview in the show notes.
718
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:26,110
Special thanks to DK from Nerds, Geeks,
and the Kitchen Sink for helping me
719
00:45:26,110 --> 00:45:30,259
out, and to George from The Best Little
Horror House in Philly, and Bones
720
00:45:30,259 --> 00:45:34,009
from the Five Day Rentals podcast
for providing the voices of David E.
721
00:45:34,009 --> 00:45:35,570
Williams and Sean Smith.
722
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:41,080
All other voices featured in this episode
apart from my own are computer generated.
723
00:45:41,105 --> 00:45:45,405
All of the sources used in this
episode can be found in the show notes.
724
00:45:45,865 --> 00:45:49,435
If you have a molehill that you'd like
me to turn into a mountain, whether it's
725
00:45:49,435 --> 00:45:53,545
a mystery that you just can't solve,
or just an interesting topic you'd like
726
00:45:53,545 --> 00:45:55,665
me to delve into, please reach out.
727
00:45:56,205 --> 00:46:00,105
You can email me at Mount
Molehill podcast@gmail.com,
728
00:46:00,315 --> 00:46:06,375
or you can call and leave me a
voicemail at 5 0 5 2 1 8 6 8 9 4.
729
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:11,320
Follow us on Instagram to see updates
and supplemental material for the show.
730
00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:15,190
Thanks for listening to the
pilot season of Mount Mole Hill.
731
00:46:15,539 --> 00:46:18,200
Once again, thank you to anyone
who has listened to the show
732
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,630
or helped me out along the way.
733
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:22,320
And if you'd like to hear more
episodes of the show in the
734
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,450
future, please, just let me know.
735
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:25,939
Thanks for listening.
00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:17,960
It should almost go without saying
that someone such as myself who loves
2
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,520
Halloween also loves horror movies.
3
00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:25,530
In fact, I used to do a podcast that
focused exclusively on horror films,
4
00:00:25,670 --> 00:00:27,289
particularly the Forgotten Obscurities.
5
00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:33,020
And every horror fan that's interested in
the esoteric side of the genre eventually
6
00:00:33,020 --> 00:00:35,810
becomes aware of the Guinea Pig series.
7
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,649
Their reputation precedes them.
8
00:00:39,169 --> 00:00:41,860
They're often mentioned as
some of the most depraved
9
00:00:41,870 --> 00:00:43,940
films ever committed to tape.
10
00:00:44,649 --> 00:00:49,690
The Guinea Pig series has an aura about
it, and over the years it has developed
11
00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:52,269
an almost urban legend quality to it.
12
00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:56,989
To the point that it becomes difficult
to separate fact from myth and rumor.
13
00:00:57,515 --> 00:01:01,384
Much of the information floating
around about these films is inaccurate,
14
00:01:01,384 --> 00:01:04,664
and while the oft repeated lore
of the Guinea Pig films may be
15
00:01:04,664 --> 00:01:06,785
titillating, how much of it...
16
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,590
Is actually true.
17
00:01:11,789 --> 00:01:13,429
Welcome to Mount Mole Hill.
18
00:01:13,630 --> 00:01:16,570
A place where even the smallest
mysteries become mountains.
19
00:01:17,289 --> 00:01:20,640
I'm Chris and this week I'm delving
into some of the controversies
20
00:01:20,650 --> 00:01:22,799
surrounding the guinea pig horror films.
21
00:01:23,499 --> 00:01:28,600
This story involves copycat killers,
famous Hollywood actors, snuff films, the
22
00:01:28,670 --> 00:01:31,810
FBI, and a healthy dose of hobby drama.
23
00:01:32,710 --> 00:01:33,880
The guinea pig films.
24
00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:36,150
Are they real snuff films?
25
00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,200
Did they inspire real murders?
26
00:01:38,450 --> 00:01:42,540
And did a phone call from Charlie
Sheen launch an FBI investigation?
27
00:01:43,329 --> 00:01:45,380
Let's make a mountain
out of this molehill.
28
00:01:51,539 --> 00:01:55,090
This whole thing started
with one man, Satoru Ogura.
29
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,390
Ogura set out to make a series
of films that would push
30
00:01:58,390 --> 00:01:59,940
the boundaries of bad taste.
31
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,580
He wanted to create the most vile
films imaginable, and decided that the
32
00:02:04,590 --> 00:02:09,330
best way to do that would be to create
a series of simulated snuff films.
33
00:02:09,995 --> 00:02:14,675
Ogura has no credits to his name
on IMDb prior to Guinea Pig, so
34
00:02:14,675 --> 00:02:19,275
presumably the start of the series is
the start of Ogura's career in film.
35
00:02:19,715 --> 00:02:24,374
After wrapping pre production for the
first entry in the series, 1985's Devil's
36
00:02:24,375 --> 00:02:31,675
Experiment, Ogura approached horror
Hino, author of Hell Baby and Panorama
37
00:02:31,675 --> 00:02:34,025
of Hell, seeking a collaboration.
38
00:02:34,555 --> 00:02:38,054
Hino was impressed with Ogura's
ideas and quickly wrote a script
39
00:02:38,065 --> 00:02:42,915
for the second film in the series,
1985's Flower of Flesh and Blood.
40
00:02:43,345 --> 00:02:47,074
The first two entries were
filmed back to back in 1985.
41
00:02:47,755 --> 00:02:52,065
Devil's Experiment, directed by
Ogura and distributed by Orange Video
42
00:02:52,065 --> 00:02:57,525
House, was released in 1985, and
sold very well on the video market.
43
00:02:58,054 --> 00:03:02,144
The Hino directed Flower of Flesh
and Blood was released soon after
44
00:03:02,145 --> 00:03:05,834
to capitalize on the success of
Devil's Experiment, and to keep
45
00:03:05,835 --> 00:03:07,594
the guinea pig momentum going.
46
00:03:08,074 --> 00:03:12,725
The runaway success of Devil's Experiment
is due not only to its effects, which
47
00:03:12,725 --> 00:03:18,170
are quite convincing even today, But also
because of its simulated snuff aesthetic.
48
00:03:18,650 --> 00:03:23,609
The original release of Devil's Experiment
had no opening titles, no credits,
49
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,979
and nothing else that would otherwise
identify it as a commercial production.
50
00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:31,820
The marketing material claimed
that Devil's Experiment was
51
00:03:31,820 --> 00:03:33,880
in fact an actual snuff film.
52
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,580
And the commercial viability of these
tapes was immediately apparent as Flower
53
00:03:38,580 --> 00:03:43,219
of Flesh and Blood was a top ten video
store bestseller in Japan during the
54
00:03:43,220 --> 00:03:45,429
first two months after its release.
55
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,430
This isn't just among straight
to video films either.
56
00:03:49,885 --> 00:03:54,065
Flower of Flesh and Blood was even
outselling most of the major Hollywood
57
00:03:54,065 --> 00:03:56,745
releases for two months in a row in Japan.
58
00:03:57,335 --> 00:04:01,315
After the release of Flower of Flesh
and Blood, the guinea pig videos
59
00:04:01,335 --> 00:04:03,415
began to take a new direction.
60
00:04:03,954 --> 00:04:09,814
The third installment, 1986's He
Never Dies, directed by Masayuki
61
00:04:09,815 --> 00:04:13,954
Kusumi, was still extremely violent,
but it eschewed the pseudo snuff
62
00:04:13,965 --> 00:04:17,545
feel of the first two installments
for a more traditional narrative.
63
00:04:17,834 --> 00:04:20,344
And even introduced comedy into the mix.
64
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,500
He Never Dies, along with the release of
a behind the scenes making of documentary
65
00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:30,530
soon after, put to rest any lingering
concerns in Japan over whether or not
66
00:04:30,539 --> 00:04:34,910
Devil's Experiment and Flower of Flesh
and Blood were authentic snuff films.
67
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,319
The Guinea Pig series continued
to find success with the release
68
00:04:39,329 --> 00:04:43,700
of the fourth installment, 1986's
Devil Woman Doctor, written by
69
00:04:43,710 --> 00:04:45,989
Ogura and directed by Hajime Tabe.
70
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,240
And an accompanying feature
on the making of the film.
71
00:04:49,750 --> 00:04:54,400
Devil Woman Doctor is by far the most
comedic entry in the Guinea Pig series.
72
00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:58,899
Devil Woman Doctor is often listed
as being the sixth installment in
73
00:04:58,899 --> 00:05:02,659
the series and it is even listed
as such on the Wikipedia page
74
00:05:02,659 --> 00:05:04,199
for the Guinea Pig franchise.
75
00:05:04,505 --> 00:05:09,555
Where it's placement in the series is
swapped with 1988's Mermaid in a Manhole.
76
00:05:09,835 --> 00:05:15,024
And Devil Woman Doctor is erroneously
listed as having a 1990 release date.
77
00:05:15,555 --> 00:05:19,014
This likely stems from some
incorrect information on the
78
00:05:19,015 --> 00:05:20,844
now defunct guinea pig films.
79
00:05:21,085 --> 00:05:24,384
com site that claimed to have
received production information on
80
00:05:24,385 --> 00:05:26,445
the series from producers in Japan.
81
00:05:26,794 --> 00:05:30,984
Which listed the production date
for Devil Woman Doctor as 1990.
82
00:05:32,015 --> 00:05:34,844
Based on my research,
this cannot be the case.
83
00:05:35,395 --> 00:05:39,004
For one thing, the Orange Video
House release of Devil Woman
84
00:05:39,004 --> 00:05:42,955
Doctor is distinctly labeled
number 4 on the box art.
85
00:05:43,474 --> 00:05:47,685
There are also some statements made by
director Hideshi Hino, which we will get
86
00:05:47,685 --> 00:05:52,445
into in a moment, that further support
Devil Woman Doctor as the fourth entry.
87
00:05:53,205 --> 00:05:57,695
After the release of Devil Woman Doctor,
the rights to the series were sold
88
00:05:57,705 --> 00:06:02,615
by Orange Video House to Japan Home
Video, and again, things get murky.
89
00:06:03,105 --> 00:06:06,894
Japan Home Video did not continue
to number the entries in the Guinea
90
00:06:06,895 --> 00:06:10,934
Pig series, so there is a bit of
confusion regarding the fifth and sixth
91
00:06:10,934 --> 00:06:14,605
films, Android of Notre Dame 1988.
92
00:06:19,214 --> 00:06:23,485
But Android of Notre Dame did
not get released until 1989.
93
00:06:24,054 --> 00:06:28,825
Android of Notre Dame is often called
Guinea Pig 5, but that likely comes
94
00:06:28,844 --> 00:06:33,124
from the confusion about Devil Woman
Doctor's placement as the sixth entry.
95
00:06:33,724 --> 00:06:38,094
My copy of Android of Notre Dame has
the number 5 during the title sequence,
96
00:06:38,255 --> 00:06:42,465
but it's unknown to me if that same
title appeared on the original VHS.
97
00:06:43,159 --> 00:06:48,580
Whatever the case, Android of Notre
Dame, written and directed by Kazuhito
98
00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:51,249
Kuramoto, and Mermaid in a Manhole,
written and directed by Hideshi
99
00:06:51,250 --> 00:06:56,039
Hino, would be the last two proper
releases in the Guinea Pig series.
100
00:06:56,690 --> 00:07:00,419
Both of these films continued the
departure from the roots laid down by
101
00:07:00,419 --> 00:07:04,620
Devil's Experiment and Flower of Flesh
and Blood, and employed a mixture of
102
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,970
traditional narrative and extreme gore.
103
00:07:07,850 --> 00:07:11,210
Up to this point, the guinea
pig films had achieved a lot of
104
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,460
underground notoriety, but were
relatively unknown to the mainstream.
105
00:07:16,010 --> 00:07:19,630
This all changed when the films
became linked to a series of
106
00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:21,950
brutal child murders in Japan.
107
00:07:22,510 --> 00:07:28,215
On July 23rd, 1989 Twenty six
year old Tsutomu Miyazaki was
108
00:07:28,215 --> 00:07:32,655
arrested after abducting a small
girl in a park, convincing her to
109
00:07:32,655 --> 00:07:35,235
strip nude, and photographing her.
110
00:07:36,135 --> 00:07:40,984
When Tokyo police searched Miyazaki's
apartment, they found evidence
111
00:07:40,984 --> 00:07:44,945
linking Miyazaki to the murders
of four girls between the ages of
112
00:07:44,955 --> 00:07:47,625
four and seven from August 1988.
113
00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:49,450
to June 1989.
114
00:07:50,420 --> 00:07:56,310
They also found 5, 736
videotapes containing hentai,
115
00:07:56,410 --> 00:07:58,120
anime, and horror films.
116
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,930
Among those tapes, allegedly,
was Flower of Flesh and Blood.
117
00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:07,760
The otaku murders, as they would come
to be called, otaku being a negative
118
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:13,370
Japanese term for people with obsessive
interests, Created a moral panic in Japan.
119
00:08:13,860 --> 00:08:17,680
There was a public outcry and many
in the media opined that the violent
120
00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:22,060
movies that Miyazaki consumed,
such as the Guinea Pig films, were
121
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,360
responsible for creating a monster.
122
00:08:24,979 --> 00:08:28,849
The Tokyo Metropolitan Government
considered putting restrictions on
123
00:08:28,849 --> 00:08:32,809
the entertainment industry due to the
high profile of the Otaku murders.
124
00:08:33,095 --> 00:08:35,405
But ultimately, this did not come to pass.
125
00:08:36,475 --> 00:08:41,005
It is also often claimed that Miyazaki
went as far as to re enact one of the
126
00:08:41,005 --> 00:08:45,635
murders seen in Flower of Flesh and
Blood, but in an interview with Vice in
127
00:08:45,635 --> 00:08:51,444
2009, Hideshi Hino put these rumors to
rest, saying, A video from the Guinea
128
00:08:51,444 --> 00:08:53,205
Pig series was discovered in his room.
129
00:08:53,425 --> 00:08:56,515
But it was Guinea Pig 4, a
video I had nothing to do with.
130
00:08:56,815 --> 00:09:00,575
This statement clarifies a few
things about the Guinea Pig series.
131
00:09:01,325 --> 00:09:05,925
First, it establishes that Mermaid in
a Manhole is not the 4th entry since
132
00:09:05,925 --> 00:09:10,465
we know that Mermaid was written and
directed by Hino, and here he is saying
133
00:09:10,475 --> 00:09:12,695
he had nothing to do with Guinea Pig 4.
134
00:09:13,385 --> 00:09:18,775
Second, it establishes that none of the
real life otaku murders were reenactments
135
00:09:18,775 --> 00:09:23,445
of the guinea pig films because none of
Miyazaki's crimes match up with the events
136
00:09:23,485 --> 00:09:28,705
depicted in Devil Woman Doctor, the only
guinea pig film found in his collection.
137
00:09:29,835 --> 00:09:33,515
The unwanted notoriety of the
guinea pig series resulting from the
138
00:09:33,515 --> 00:09:37,915
Miyazaki case caused a Japan Home
Video to halt the impending release
139
00:09:37,925 --> 00:09:39,975
of the seventh entry in the series.
140
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:45,660
The film, Lucky Sky Diamond, was
eventually released in 1990, albeit
141
00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:47,370
without the guinea pig label.
142
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:52,269
Once again, Satoru Ogura served as
producer, and the film was written and
143
00:09:52,270 --> 00:09:56,900
directed by Izo Hashimoto, and follows
the tone of the previous four films.
144
00:09:57,630 --> 00:10:03,270
In 1991, okra created a sort of greatest
hits compilation using previous footage
145
00:10:03,270 --> 00:10:05,189
from the films in the Guinea pig series.
146
00:10:05,810 --> 00:10:10,400
Slaughter Special 1991, as it
was named, is the final video
147
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,110
to bear the Guinea pig label.
148
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,240
But it's not the end of our story.
149
00:10:14,420 --> 00:10:17,780
In fact, things only
get weirder from here.
150
00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:22,470
Well, the Guinea pig films had
become notorious in their Native
151
00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:24,600
Japan after the Otaku murders.
152
00:10:24,990 --> 00:10:28,030
It wasn't until copies of the
movie started making their way
153
00:10:28,050 --> 00:10:32,610
outside of Japan that they began
to take on an urban legend quality.
154
00:10:33,099 --> 00:10:39,749
In 1992, a of a copy of Flower
of Flesh and Blood and reported
155
00:10:39,749 --> 00:10:41,109
it to the Swedish police.
156
00:10:41,830 --> 00:10:46,950
In their ensuing investigation, Swedish
police sent the tape to a medical examiner
157
00:10:47,090 --> 00:10:51,339
who initially was unable to determine
whether or not the film was real.
158
00:10:51,729 --> 00:10:56,999
Flower of Flesh and Blood made headlines
again in 1992, this time in Great Britain.
159
00:10:57,389 --> 00:11:02,200
When 26 year old Christopher Berthoud
was arrested for importing snuff films
160
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,050
into the country when he ordered videos
of Flower of Flesh and Blood, infant
161
00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:09,870
brain surgery, and Faces of Dissection.
162
00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:15,530
From Blackest Heart Media, British
authorities quickly determined that Flower
163
00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:20,349
of Flesh and Blood was not actually a
snuff film, but to them, it didn't matter.
164
00:11:20,789 --> 00:11:25,099
British authorities stated, This is
not an Asian girl alive being murdered,
165
00:11:25,180 --> 00:11:28,670
but something that is so well simulated
that that is the impression it creates.
166
00:11:29,519 --> 00:11:34,630
Berthoud was found guilty, but given that
Flower of Flesh and Blood was not actually
167
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:40,959
a snuff film, authorities opted to fine
Berthoud 600 in lieu of imprisonment.
168
00:11:41,984 --> 00:11:48,324
On October 5th, 1996, TCI of California,
the then owners of the San Francisco
169
00:11:48,324 --> 00:11:53,084
cable TV system, began receiving
complaints that a snuff film had
170
00:11:53,085 --> 00:11:58,064
been aired on the Channel 53 public
access program, The Pain Factory.
171
00:11:59,074 --> 00:12:03,265
The culprit, once again, was Flower
of Flesh and Blood, and after a
172
00:12:03,265 --> 00:12:07,745
brief hubbub in the local media,
once again, everyone realized that
173
00:12:07,745 --> 00:12:09,985
it was not an authentic snuff film.
174
00:12:10,525 --> 00:12:13,485
And at this point, the whole world
should have been aware that the
175
00:12:13,485 --> 00:12:15,405
Guinea Pig films were not real.
176
00:12:15,595 --> 00:12:19,955
And yet, as Unearthed Films attempted
to release the Guinea Pig series
177
00:12:19,955 --> 00:12:21,885
officially for the first time in the U.
178
00:12:21,885 --> 00:12:24,635
S., they still ran into some issues.
179
00:12:25,574 --> 00:12:29,904
Steven Biro, co owner of Unearthed
Films, stated that he went
180
00:12:29,905 --> 00:12:33,945
through a lot of trouble to find a
company that would press the DVDs.
181
00:12:34,655 --> 00:12:39,715
Bureau would send the guinea pig masters
to a DVD company and inevitably have the
182
00:12:39,715 --> 00:12:44,524
masters return to him with an apology
from the DVD company explaining that they
183
00:12:44,525 --> 00:12:46,464
would not be able to do the transfer.
184
00:12:47,015 --> 00:12:50,825
Bureau stated that even the company that
pressed the DVDs for the infamous and
185
00:12:51,635 --> 00:12:55,355
Traces of Death series would not do it.
186
00:12:56,210 --> 00:13:00,730
Fortunately, Unearthed Films was able
to find a company that would press
187
00:13:00,770 --> 00:13:06,870
the DVDs and the Guinea Pig series
finally got a proper US release in 2002.
188
00:13:08,060 --> 00:13:12,970
But these incidents, outlandish as they
may seem, are not even the strangest
189
00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:15,079
chapters in the Guinea Pig saga.
190
00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:19,580
And if you don't believe me, just
go ahead and Google Charlie Sheen
191
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:21,840
snuff film and see what comes up.
192
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,910
You'll see a bunch of short
articles like one on uproxx.
193
00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:30,500
com titled, About that time Charlie
Sheen thought he watched a snuff film
194
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:32,669
and started an FBI investigation.
195
00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:37,470
And you'll also see Reddit posts like
one that says, Today, I learned that
196
00:13:37,470 --> 00:13:42,940
Charlie Sheen mistakenly thought he had
viewed a snuff film in 1991 and promptly
197
00:13:42,940 --> 00:13:47,430
started an FBI investigation into whether
or not a real murder had occurred.
198
00:13:47,859 --> 00:13:50,540
And this is how the story
is usually presented.
199
00:13:50,859 --> 00:13:53,529
Charlie Sheen, possibly
under the influence.
200
00:13:53,905 --> 00:13:58,635
Watches a guinea pig movie, specifically
Flower of Flesh and Blood, and
201
00:13:58,635 --> 00:14:02,705
calls the FBI, which launches a
full blown investigation into the
202
00:14:02,705 --> 00:14:04,885
authenticity of the guinea pig films.
203
00:14:05,595 --> 00:14:08,335
Even the famous debunking site Snopes.
204
00:14:08,354 --> 00:14:13,304
com presents the story in this fashion
by way of a 1994 article in the San
205
00:14:13,305 --> 00:14:17,705
Francisco Chronicle that claims,
The FBI confiscated Sheen's tape and
206
00:14:17,705 --> 00:14:19,725
proceeded to investigate all involved.
207
00:14:20,735 --> 00:14:23,495
But is that how things really went down?
208
00:14:24,075 --> 00:14:26,705
It's honestly almost impossible to tell.
209
00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:31,585
And in order to understand why the
story gets so murky, we need to travel
210
00:14:31,595 --> 00:14:34,545
back in time to the early 1990s.
211
00:14:35,075 --> 00:14:38,875
A time before the internet was
widespread in American households.
212
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:43,670
A time when bootleg videotapes
of obscure films were worth their
213
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:45,720
weight in gold in certain circles.
214
00:14:46,390 --> 00:14:51,390
A time when underground film magazines
competed to be their readers first
215
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,170
and only source for the latest in
gross out, shot on video schlock.
216
00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:00,699
And there are three such magazines
at the center of this whole Charlie
217
00:15:00,699 --> 00:15:02,519
Sheen guinea pig controversy.
218
00:15:03,315 --> 00:15:09,215
Deep Red, headed by Charles Chas Balan,
Film Threat Video Guide, published by
219
00:15:09,225 --> 00:15:15,255
Christian Gore, and Blackest Heart, run
by Sean Smith, which is the same company
220
00:15:15,255 --> 00:15:19,555
that sold Christopher Berthoud those
tapes that got him in trouble in the UK.
221
00:15:20,425 --> 00:15:25,615
It's important to remember that VHS
tapes used to be very expensive,
222
00:15:25,625 --> 00:15:29,715
sometimes costing between 50 and
100 when they were brand new.
223
00:15:30,225 --> 00:15:34,565
And even after eBay hit the scene, it
was still difficult to find certain
224
00:15:34,595 --> 00:15:36,384
tapes that were in high demand.
225
00:15:36,925 --> 00:15:41,175
The only ways to get one's hands
on films outside of the mainstream
226
00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:45,595
were knowing someone that had a
copy or ordering a bootleg tape.
227
00:15:46,095 --> 00:15:50,025
And bootleg tapes were risky because
there was no guarantee that the quality
228
00:15:50,025 --> 00:15:51,845
would even be good enough to watch.
229
00:15:52,545 --> 00:15:57,545
And magazines played a significant role
in helping underground film aficionados
230
00:15:57,545 --> 00:16:00,165
of the time acquire these bootleg tapes.
231
00:16:00,885 --> 00:16:05,135
There were more mainstream publications
at the time that focused on horror
232
00:16:05,135 --> 00:16:10,035
films such as Fangoria and Famous
Monsters of Filmland, but they focused
233
00:16:10,104 --> 00:16:12,669
mainly on popular American films.
234
00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:17,710
Magazines of the bootlegging ilk
provided access to more obscure
235
00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:22,320
films that would have been otherwise
nearly impossible to get a hold of.
236
00:16:22,689 --> 00:16:27,649
Japanese horror, Hong Kong Cat 3
movies, rare uncut versions of films
237
00:16:27,649 --> 00:16:29,559
that hadn't been officially released.
238
00:16:30,025 --> 00:16:34,325
And there was fierce competition between
magazines to obtain and sell films that
239
00:16:34,335 --> 00:16:38,944
their rivals didn't have, and at least
when it comes to Deep Red, Film Threat,
240
00:16:38,945 --> 00:16:43,795
Video Guide, and Blackest Heart, there
was apparently no love lost between them.
241
00:16:43,995 --> 00:16:48,825
And it wasn't uncommon for editorials
openly bad mouthing the editor of a
242
00:16:48,825 --> 00:16:53,424
rival publication to grace the pages
of one of these three magazines.
243
00:16:54,099 --> 00:16:57,589
In issue 4 of Film Threat
Video Guide, David E.
244
00:16:57,589 --> 00:17:02,859
Williams says of Deep Red's Chaz Ballin
that He at least appeared to be one of us.
245
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879
With Deep Red, Ballin was
a champion of horror film.
246
00:17:06,129 --> 00:17:08,310
He appeared to be a modern day Forrest J.
247
00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:11,129
Ackerman, consumed by
his love for the genre.
248
00:17:11,665 --> 00:17:13,385
Obviously this was just a lie.
249
00:17:13,775 --> 00:17:16,585
By pirating their legally
available works, Ballin is, for 18.
250
00:17:16,585 --> 00:17:20,025
95 a tape, grinning as
he f s these people over.
251
00:17:20,555 --> 00:17:24,574
In issue 2 of Blackest Heart, an
article by Sean Smith and Timothy
252
00:17:24,575 --> 00:17:29,060
Patrick says of Film Threat Video
Guide's publisher, Hypocrites suck.
253
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:31,780
Christian Gore swallows.
254
00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:35,820
As the hot sh slides down
Gore's throat, we'll update you
255
00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:37,370
on what a f ing prick he is.
256
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:39,540
Why do we have something against him?
257
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,320
Because he's a f ing prick.
258
00:17:42,380 --> 00:17:45,619
Gore is a big f ing crybaby
who stabs people in the back
259
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:47,080
whenever he can't get his way.
260
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,740
Well, we stab in the front, mother f er.
261
00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:56,350
And it is exactly this enmity and the
self aggrandizing impulse to one up
262
00:17:56,350 --> 00:18:00,850
competitors that makes it difficult
to determine how Charlie Sheen came
263
00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:04,409
into contact with the Flower of Flesh
and Blood tape in the first place.
264
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:08,330
Because each faction gives a
slightly different version of events.
265
00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:11,150
Chaz Ballon's version goes like this.
266
00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:16,990
He obtained a copy of Slaughter Special
1991 and became enamored with the series.
267
00:18:17,325 --> 00:18:20,885
He became an outspoken evangelist
for the guinea pig films and the main
268
00:18:20,885 --> 00:18:22,995
distributor of guinea pig films in the U.
269
00:18:22,995 --> 00:18:23,275
S.
270
00:18:23,765 --> 00:18:28,514
In 1991, one of the Deep Red staffers
asked Balan to put together the
271
00:18:28,514 --> 00:18:31,745
most disgusting video he could
muster as a special birthday
272
00:18:31,745 --> 00:18:35,775
present to be screened to a group of
friends at a weekend get together.
273
00:18:36,205 --> 00:18:40,265
Balan compiled a tape of horror's
greatest hits for his friend, and
274
00:18:40,265 --> 00:18:43,715
the opening segment on the tape
was Flower of Flesh and Blood.
275
00:18:44,135 --> 00:18:48,675
The tape was a smash hit, and Balance
Compilation Video began making the rounds
276
00:18:48,675 --> 00:18:50,775
in the East Coast tape trading scene.
277
00:18:51,085 --> 00:18:54,755
Charlie Sheen saw Flower of
Flesh and Blood at a party by
278
00:18:54,755 --> 00:18:56,575
way of Balance Compilation Tape.
279
00:18:57,715 --> 00:19:01,564
The Film Threat Video Guide's version
of events is slightly different.
280
00:19:02,154 --> 00:19:06,535
According to an article in issue 3 of
Film Threat Video Guide written by Rowdy
281
00:19:06,545 --> 00:19:12,189
Yates, Adam Rifkin obtained a copy of
an unspecified guinea pig film that was
282
00:19:12,189 --> 00:19:15,100
presented to Rifkin as a real snuff film.
283
00:19:15,649 --> 00:19:19,620
Doubting its authenticity, Rifkin
watched the film with Sheen,
284
00:19:19,639 --> 00:19:23,529
and neither of them were able to
satisfyingly explain how the effects
285
00:19:23,529 --> 00:19:25,219
in the film could have been achieved.
286
00:19:25,475 --> 00:19:27,505
So they reported it to the FBI.
287
00:19:28,645 --> 00:19:33,115
Blackist Heart's version is significantly
different from the other two.
288
00:19:33,635 --> 00:19:38,055
They claim in an article written by Sean
Smith and Timothy Patrick that appeared in
289
00:19:38,075 --> 00:19:44,105
issue 2 of Blackist Heart that Christian
Gore of Film Threat Video Guide wanted to
290
00:19:44,105 --> 00:19:46,165
distribute the guinea pig films in the U.
291
00:19:46,165 --> 00:19:46,425
S.
292
00:19:46,969 --> 00:19:51,419
He bought a copy of the film from Chaz
Ballin, but when Gore discovered that he
293
00:19:51,419 --> 00:19:55,989
wouldn't be able to obtain distribution
rights for the film, he gave a copy of
294
00:19:55,989 --> 00:20:01,030
Flower of Flesh and Blood to Charlie Sheen
and told him that it was a real snuff film
295
00:20:01,199 --> 00:20:03,520
and that he should report it to the FBI.
296
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:08,020
The idea being that if Film Threat Video
Guide couldn't distribute the film,
297
00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:10,210
no one else should be able to either.
298
00:20:11,179 --> 00:20:13,210
So, which version of events is true?
299
00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:18,010
Now, in my research, I was
never able to find any primary
300
00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:20,280
sources from Sheen himself.
301
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,240
It seems that, despite his penchant
for running off at the mouth,
302
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:27,790
he has never publicly commented
on the guinea pig incident.
303
00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:32,570
There was an article titled, The Snuff
Film, The Making of an Urban Legend.
304
00:20:32,935 --> 00:20:38,365
Written by Scott Aaron Stein that appeared
in the May June 1999 issue of Skeptical
305
00:20:38,365 --> 00:20:43,005
Inquirer that stated The incident
made headlines, though, and was even
306
00:20:43,005 --> 00:20:46,105
spotlighted on ABC's News Magazine 2020.
307
00:20:46,765 --> 00:20:51,164
I spent quite a bit of time trying to
track down the episode of 2020, but
308
00:20:51,205 --> 00:20:57,395
unfortunately ABC has not done a great job
of cataloging old episodes of the show.
309
00:20:57,855 --> 00:21:02,195
I reached out to Scott Ehrenstein and
asked if he had ever seen the episode of
310
00:21:02,195 --> 00:21:06,675
2020 in which the Charlie Sheen guinea
pig incident was covered or, if he
311
00:21:06,675 --> 00:21:08,955
hadn't, where he had first heard about it.
312
00:21:09,580 --> 00:21:10,840
His reply was this.
313
00:21:11,399 --> 00:21:15,790
Honestly, I don't recall, but it seems
to me numerous other articles detailing
314
00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:19,389
the controversy at the time referenced
the 2020 interview I mentioned.
315
00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:21,320
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
316
00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:23,259
And he's right.
317
00:21:23,449 --> 00:21:27,279
I did find other sources mentioning
Sheen's appearance in an episode of 2020.
318
00:21:28,345 --> 00:21:32,195
But none of them predated Stein's
article in Skeptical Inquirer.
319
00:21:32,625 --> 00:21:37,044
The only link between the Guinea
Pig films and ABC's 2020 that I was
320
00:21:37,044 --> 00:21:42,185
able to find that predates Stein's
article was an editorial written by
321
00:21:42,195 --> 00:21:45,344
Chas Ballin in issue 7 of Deep Red.
322
00:21:45,824 --> 00:21:50,465
However, this article says that it was
the Otaku murders that were featured
323
00:21:50,465 --> 00:21:53,375
on 2020, not the Charlie Sheen debacle.
324
00:21:54,004 --> 00:21:59,334
So it seems as though the Charlie Sheen
guinea pig 2020 appearance is the result
325
00:21:59,334 --> 00:22:02,304
of a game of magazine article telephone.
326
00:22:02,884 --> 00:22:07,594
And I was also unable to track down
the purported episode of 2020 that
327
00:22:07,594 --> 00:22:09,614
features the Otaku murders, so...
328
00:22:09,905 --> 00:22:13,955
Until I can find evidence that
either 2020 episode exists...
329
00:22:14,575 --> 00:22:18,985
I'll have to consider them apocryphal,
just a couple more of the many rumors
330
00:22:18,985 --> 00:22:22,885
that have been repeated time and time
again since this whole incident occurred.
331
00:22:23,855 --> 00:22:26,334
So since we don't have
a statement from Mr.
332
00:22:26,334 --> 00:22:30,165
Sheen himself, the only sources
we do have are from others
333
00:22:30,185 --> 00:22:32,144
that were purportedly involved.
334
00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:38,915
In a letter from Chas Ballin dated April
5th, 2002 published on the guineapigfilms.
335
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:43,669
com website, He reiterates his version
of events regarding a compilation
336
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:47,360
tape he made for a friend making
its way to Charlie Sheen via the
337
00:22:47,389 --> 00:22:49,100
East Coast tape trading scene.
338
00:22:49,659 --> 00:22:55,099
And contrary to the 1994 San Francisco
Chronicle article quoted by Snopes.
339
00:22:55,449 --> 00:23:00,355
com that states, The FBI confiscated
Sheen's tape and proceeded to investigate
340
00:23:00,365 --> 00:23:04,355
all involved, including Charles Ballin,
an early distributor of the film.
341
00:23:05,274 --> 00:23:09,104
Ballin said, The only semi direct
contact I ever had during the aftermath
342
00:23:09,104 --> 00:23:12,664
of this dulling debacle was a call
from the red staffer I sent the tape
343
00:23:12,665 --> 00:23:16,455
to, warning me of an impending call
from the FBI who were investigating
344
00:23:16,455 --> 00:23:18,274
the video as a real snub film.
345
00:23:18,485 --> 00:23:19,215
Police.
346
00:23:19,404 --> 00:23:20,465
Never got a call.
347
00:23:20,514 --> 00:23:20,965
Ever.
348
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,019
I lost interest immediately
and chuckled often as the s
349
00:23:24,020 --> 00:23:25,950
tstorm soon lost its momentum.
350
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,889
Also of note on guineapigfilms.
351
00:23:28,919 --> 00:23:33,299
com is a section quoting the Japanese
Cinema Encyclopedia by Weiser and
352
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:38,449
Weiser that says that Charlie Sheen
did not, in fact, call the FBI.
353
00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:43,510
Rather, Sheen contacted the Motion
Picture Association of America.
354
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,890
Who then contacted the FBI.
355
00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:51,710
FBI agent Dan Kodling informed the
MPAA that the films had already been
356
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,659
independently investigated by Japanese
authorities and the FBI, and that
357
00:23:56,659 --> 00:24:01,139
both agencies had determined that the
Guinea Pig films were completely fake.
358
00:24:02,294 --> 00:24:05,485
But back to how Charlie
Sheen actually got the tape.
359
00:24:05,965 --> 00:24:10,155
We have Chaz Balin's version involving
a compilation tape circulating
360
00:24:10,155 --> 00:24:11,725
through the Tape Trading Network.
361
00:24:11,985 --> 00:24:15,595
We have Film Threat Video Guide's
version that the tape was given to
362
00:24:15,625 --> 00:24:17,975
Charlie Sheen by director Adam Rifkin.
363
00:24:18,365 --> 00:24:21,495
And we have Blackest Heart's
version, which claims that the tape
364
00:24:21,495 --> 00:24:25,865
was sold by Chaz Ballin to film
threat video guys Christian Gore,
365
00:24:25,945 --> 00:24:27,855
who then gave it to Charlie Sheen.
366
00:24:28,565 --> 00:24:31,325
Each account is quite
different from the other two.
367
00:24:31,424 --> 00:24:35,505
And the question becomes, how does
someone coming at this over 30
368
00:24:35,514 --> 00:24:37,585
years later begin to untangle it?
369
00:24:38,315 --> 00:24:42,065
There are still so many questions
left unanswered, and the number
370
00:24:42,065 --> 00:24:45,805
of people who could answer those
questions is vanishingly small.
371
00:24:46,495 --> 00:24:51,774
Chas Ballin passed away in 2009,
and Sean Smith, by all accounts,
372
00:24:51,805 --> 00:24:54,524
retired from public life in 2019.
373
00:24:55,225 --> 00:24:59,745
Which leaves just one person involved,
Film Threat Video Guide's Christian
374
00:24:59,745 --> 00:25:03,215
Gore, who would be able to shed
some light on this whole affair.
375
00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,105
Now up to this point...
376
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:09,880
I have been calling him Christian Gore,
because that's how he was credited
377
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,580
in the Film Threat Video Guide.
378
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,770
But you may know him as Chris
Gore, writer, director, author,
379
00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:21,400
podcast host, and former contributor
to G4's Attack of the Show.
380
00:25:21,739 --> 00:25:27,640
Well, what's interesting about the
Charlie Sheen, guinea pig video,
381
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:32,129
uh, FBI debacle is that I'm the
one that got him the videotape.
382
00:25:32,669 --> 00:25:36,159
That's the voice of Chris Gore,
who was generous enough to take
383
00:25:36,159 --> 00:25:39,629
some time out of his day and talk
to me about this whole fiasco.
384
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:43,989
And the first question I had about
the whole thing is, what exactly
385
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,949
were the contents of the tape?
386
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:52,300
So there, there's also in my research, two
versions going around about the contents
387
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,409
of the tape that Charlie Sheen watched.
388
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:57,989
One version is that it was
sort of a compilation tape put
389
00:25:57,989 --> 00:26:03,089
together by Chaz Ballon of Deep
Red that it just included footage.
390
00:26:03,109 --> 00:26:07,455
And the other version is that it
was just, you know, uh, Bootleg
391
00:26:07,465 --> 00:26:10,815
duplicate of an entire guinea pig film.
392
00:26:10,815 --> 00:26:13,185
So yeah, it was the guinea pig film.
393
00:26:13,235 --> 00:26:14,665
It wasn't his compilation.
394
00:26:14,675 --> 00:26:18,085
It was the guinea pig film
because I had the guinea pig film.
395
00:26:18,685 --> 00:26:24,095
So, and I think the way I got it was we
would trade tapes with so many people.
396
00:26:24,105 --> 00:26:27,235
David E Williams, who was
the editor, editor in chief
397
00:26:27,264 --> 00:26:28,564
of film threat video guide.
398
00:26:28,824 --> 00:26:33,665
I believe he got the guinea pig
film from Richard Kern or someone
399
00:26:33,665 --> 00:26:34,635
from the cinema of transgression.
400
00:26:35,034 --> 00:26:36,164
It might've been Nick said.
401
00:26:36,504 --> 00:26:39,155
At the time we were trading
tapes with so many people.
402
00:26:39,314 --> 00:26:42,764
So, so that's what I was
doing, you know, rather.
403
00:26:42,784 --> 00:26:46,754
And then the thing was, is they
would send me their weird tapes.
404
00:26:47,395 --> 00:26:50,675
So it really was, the
currency was weird videotapes.
405
00:26:50,715 --> 00:26:53,445
That's how we, that's
how we did all of this.
406
00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:59,075
And the movie in question, it was
flower of flesh and blood, right?
407
00:26:59,424 --> 00:27:02,895
It's like a Sam, a guy
dressed up as a Samurai.
408
00:27:03,165 --> 00:27:03,385
Yes.
409
00:27:03,445 --> 00:27:03,905
That's it.
410
00:27:04,675 --> 00:27:05,055
Yeah.
411
00:27:05,564 --> 00:27:10,095
So I was friends with Adam Rifkin
who, uh, I'm still friends with him.
412
00:27:10,235 --> 00:27:15,034
Uh, he's, he's really evolved
into an exciting indie filmmaker.
413
00:27:15,504 --> 00:27:20,725
So, so Adam Rifkin had made a, a
movie called invisible maniac, which
414
00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:22,965
was basically an invisible man story.
415
00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:26,824
Kind of, it was an invisible
man, horror film mixed with.
416
00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:29,820
A TNA teen sex comedy.
417
00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:33,460
It was a guy who got invisible
and basically felt up young women
418
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,120
and they got naked in the movie.
419
00:27:35,609 --> 00:27:39,200
Um, there was actually an adult film
actress whose name escapes me who
420
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,590
starred in the invisible maniac.
421
00:27:40,859 --> 00:27:42,100
And that's how I met Adam.
422
00:27:42,459 --> 00:27:43,899
He made that film.
423
00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:48,670
Then he went off and directed
the chase with a Charlie Sheen.
424
00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:51,020
And then he worked on a film.
425
00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:53,455
Uh, called the dark backward.
426
00:27:53,765 --> 00:27:57,235
Um, and we were going to have
that be our cover story for
427
00:27:57,235 --> 00:27:58,425
film threat, the first issue.
428
00:27:58,425 --> 00:27:59,855
And we covered the movie.
429
00:27:59,855 --> 00:28:01,735
It unfortunately just
didn't make it to the cover.
430
00:28:02,165 --> 00:28:04,865
Um, we had to put something
more mainstream on, right.
431
00:28:05,245 --> 00:28:08,945
Uh, just to sell mags, but we still
covered the movie extensively inside,
432
00:28:08,945 --> 00:28:12,515
but I became friends with Adam
and Adam and I, we would just get
433
00:28:12,515 --> 00:28:14,815
into deep discussions about like.
434
00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:19,530
You know, just weird videos
and weird films we had seen.
435
00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:25,100
And, you know, back when I lived in
Michigan in the eighties, I was obsessed
436
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,860
with tracking down weird videos.
437
00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:32,559
And a lot of it was you would
trade tapes with people.
438
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,320
So for example, I was trading tapes with
a guy named Steve Bassett, who was a comic
439
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,340
illustrator for swamp thing, working with.
440
00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:44,045
With Alan Moore, and he had sent me
Legend of the Overfiend, which was not
441
00:28:44,055 --> 00:28:45,735
legally available in the United States.
442
00:28:45,735 --> 00:28:49,944
It's, uh, one of the, one of the, it was
the first hentai thing I'd ever seen.
443
00:28:50,514 --> 00:28:54,754
It was a hentai animated film
feature, which was just bizarre.
444
00:28:54,754 --> 00:28:56,395
It was like part Akira with hentai.
445
00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:57,014
It was weird.
446
00:28:57,015 --> 00:28:57,614
So...
447
00:28:58,345 --> 00:29:00,585
I loved Legend of the Overfiend.
448
00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:01,875
I thought it was fantastic.
449
00:29:02,285 --> 00:29:06,485
So Steve Bassett sent me that, and then
I sent him weird tapes that I had made.
450
00:29:06,835 --> 00:29:09,284
I did as a two part series of films.
451
00:29:09,314 --> 00:29:13,765
I called, um, I was inspired by
William Burroughs and William Burroughs
452
00:29:13,765 --> 00:29:18,004
had done a thing where he created a
thing called cut up tapes, he would
453
00:29:18,004 --> 00:29:20,034
take audio and he would edit it.
454
00:29:20,665 --> 00:29:24,665
And with these weird contrasts,
it'd be like a song and then, you
455
00:29:24,665 --> 00:29:29,775
know, some industrial machinery
and then him reading poetry.
456
00:29:30,025 --> 00:29:33,034
And it was the, he created this,
William Burroughs had created these
457
00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:35,985
bizarre series of audio cut up tapes.
458
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:38,510
And I was so inspired by that.
459
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:39,800
I thought that is weird.
460
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:41,870
I'm going to do the video version of that.
461
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,080
And so while I was in college,
I was collecting like all this
462
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,510
weird, these weird footage.
463
00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:55,529
Like I had, I had recorded every time
someone who looked punk rock or new
464
00:29:55,530 --> 00:30:01,590
wave was on the news or in a TV show,
I saved it and I created a montage.
465
00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:05,750
Cathode fuck and TV sphincter
were the names of the two tapes
466
00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:08,020
and it was just weird stuff.
467
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:12,300
I had like a mcdonald's training
film on courtesy and whatnot.
468
00:30:13,035 --> 00:30:16,265
And I intercut that with
this punk rock footage.
469
00:30:16,465 --> 00:30:18,355
There was purpose behind it.
470
00:30:19,155 --> 00:30:24,815
That was like this whole culture
of trading tapes was a big deal.
471
00:30:24,835 --> 00:30:28,394
And I gave, I gave Adam cathode fuck.
472
00:30:28,574 --> 00:30:33,381
I gave him TV sphincter and he'd
always ask me like, Hey, then he says
473
00:30:33,381 --> 00:30:38,705
to me, he goes, look, Harley Sheen is
really into these underground videos.
474
00:30:38,725 --> 00:30:41,935
He loves underground videos.
475
00:30:43,425 --> 00:30:46,005
How can we like, like,
do you have anything?
476
00:30:46,005 --> 00:30:51,785
And I was like, one of the films that came
to me, um, was a movie called Guinea pig.
477
00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:57,550
And I, I promptly made a copy
of it, gave it to Adam Rifkin
478
00:30:57,790 --> 00:30:59,210
to give to Charlie Sheen.
479
00:31:00,330 --> 00:31:03,679
So that pretty much clears up
how Charlie Sheen came into
480
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,530
possession of the guinea pig tape.
481
00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:09,289
Although there have been a few
alternate versions of this particular
482
00:31:09,289 --> 00:31:13,330
series of events, Chris Gore's
version is the only one that could
483
00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:15,470
possibly be corroborated by others.
484
00:31:16,215 --> 00:31:20,755
Adam Rifkin and Charlie Sheen both
could refute Gore's story, but to
485
00:31:20,755 --> 00:31:24,934
my knowledge, neither of them have,
despite ample opportunity to do so.
486
00:31:25,245 --> 00:31:29,594
As this is a story that has been a
matter of public record since at least
487
00:31:29,595 --> 00:31:34,444
2013, when Gore briefly recounted
the incident on a track off his
488
00:31:34,465 --> 00:31:39,235
spoken word album, Celebrity's Poop,
titled, Video Dealer, True Story.
489
00:31:40,465 --> 00:31:43,765
The next lingering question left
to answer about this whole incident
490
00:31:43,775 --> 00:31:46,665
is, How did the FBI get involved?
491
00:31:47,595 --> 00:31:54,775
Apparently, according to Adam Rifkin,
he was so, Charlie was so shocked upon
492
00:31:54,775 --> 00:31:58,185
watching this film, he was so taken aback.
493
00:31:58,535 --> 00:32:02,025
Even though he'd been watching
these weird underground VHS tapes
494
00:32:02,415 --> 00:32:07,534
I was slipping to Adam, he thought
he had witnessed an actual murder.
495
00:32:08,624 --> 00:32:13,635
So, what Charlie Sheen ended up doing
was, he had a friend at the FBI.
496
00:32:14,425 --> 00:32:17,135
Well, what happened was,
they took it very seriously.
497
00:32:17,565 --> 00:32:20,785
The FBI said you need to
hand over the original tape.
498
00:32:21,485 --> 00:32:28,315
So, um, after Charlie Sheen had reported
this, I was contacted by the FBI
499
00:32:28,795 --> 00:32:31,785
after Adam gave them my phone number.
500
00:32:32,374 --> 00:32:36,794
I did an interview with the
FBI discussing this tape.
501
00:32:37,375 --> 00:32:39,105
I handed over the original tape.
502
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:44,420
And after a forensic analysis
of the video, they determined
503
00:32:44,420 --> 00:32:45,970
that it was in fact fake.
504
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:53,740
There's sort of this apocryphal story of
Charlie Sheen appearing on 2020 talking
505
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:58,620
about this that seems to originate from
an article written by Scott Ehrenstein,
506
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,070
who you might know is the author of like
the Gorehounds Guide to Splatter Films.
507
00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:04,320
And those kind of books.
508
00:33:04,550 --> 00:33:07,170
Do you remember anything
like that happening?
509
00:33:07,170 --> 00:33:10,560
Or did you see this supposed 2020 episode?
510
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:12,710
I don't know about the 2020 episode.
511
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,230
I do remember that there was a news
report and I just remember thinking,
512
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:18,199
well, they're going to talk about film.
513
00:33:18,229 --> 00:33:19,380
I didn't even care about me.
514
00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:19,890
Right?
515
00:33:20,179 --> 00:33:21,510
I just cared about film threat.
516
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:21,874
Like, yeah.
517
00:33:23,095 --> 00:33:23,965
We need some press.
518
00:33:24,025 --> 00:33:25,455
We need press for film threat.
519
00:33:25,465 --> 00:33:27,785
Any press is good press at the time.
520
00:33:28,275 --> 00:33:31,585
Um, and this was a big
news story and film threat.
521
00:33:31,585 --> 00:33:32,425
Wasn't a part of it.
522
00:33:32,484 --> 00:33:33,634
I wasn't a part of it.
523
00:33:33,864 --> 00:33:38,834
And that was disconcerting having
said that, um, there was a, there
524
00:33:38,835 --> 00:33:45,735
was a news story that broke basically
the, the FBI had given Charlie Sheen.
525
00:33:46,445 --> 00:33:53,185
Uh, like a good citizen commendation for
turning over this video and for alerting
526
00:33:53,185 --> 00:33:58,815
the FBI to this, and it made it onto one
of those magazine style exploitation shows
527
00:33:58,824 --> 00:34:04,894
like hard copy, none of, you know, my
involvement in any of that or film threat
528
00:34:04,895 --> 00:34:06,915
was completely excised from the story.
529
00:34:07,255 --> 00:34:12,845
The angle, the angle that they took for
this news story on television was Charlie
530
00:34:12,895 --> 00:34:15,855
Sheen is a good citizen and a good person.
531
00:34:16,095 --> 00:34:18,575
Because he worked with the
FBI and he helped them.
532
00:34:20,015 --> 00:34:24,555
Apart from the version of this part of
the story provided by Weiser and Weiser
533
00:34:24,555 --> 00:34:28,874
in the Japanese Cinema Encyclopedia which
states that Sheen turned the tape over to
534
00:34:28,874 --> 00:34:34,165
the MPAA who then turned it over to the
FBI, the other accounts of how the tape
535
00:34:34,175 --> 00:34:38,725
made its way to the FBI seem to be in
agreement with Gore's retelling of events.
536
00:34:39,105 --> 00:34:41,805
At least in terms of the
bare bone facts of it all.
537
00:34:42,435 --> 00:34:44,854
But each version has its own spin to it.
538
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,950
Either highlighting or minimizing
different individuals involvement, and
539
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:53,580
attributing different, sometimes nefarious
motivations to the players involved.
540
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:58,210
And it all seems to stem from the fact
that, as I've discussed previously,
541
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:02,180
the writers and publishers of
these different Indie mags didn't
542
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,100
seem to like each other very much.
543
00:35:04,650 --> 00:35:09,855
So what was the relationship like
between Underground film magazines back
544
00:35:09,855 --> 00:35:14,065
then, because in researching this, I've
come across articles in Film Threat
545
00:35:14,065 --> 00:35:20,025
Video Guide, Blackest Heart, and Deep
Red, where writers of one magazine
546
00:35:20,025 --> 00:35:24,854
are openly bashing writers of another
magazine, and coming from the outside
547
00:35:24,865 --> 00:35:29,550
is It's hard to tell if this was
all an end joke or was there genuine
548
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,260
animosity between you guys back then?
549
00:35:32,970 --> 00:35:35,360
I think it was animosity with
some of the other people.
550
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,510
There wasn't with me.
551
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,560
We became more of a target because
in the space we were perceived
552
00:35:40,569 --> 00:35:42,600
to be among the better magazines.
553
00:35:42,899 --> 00:35:44,229
So we were always a target.
554
00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:45,940
We had a target on our back.
555
00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:49,810
I would kind of brush it off, make
them look stupid by making a joke.
556
00:35:50,175 --> 00:35:54,255
In my magazine and having the last
word and then that was it, but I would
557
00:35:54,255 --> 00:35:58,804
never actively go after someone because
I thought that was kind of a waste.
558
00:35:58,945 --> 00:36:04,075
Like, I don't want to actively go
after some movie magazine, but if
559
00:36:04,075 --> 00:36:07,754
they send me something or try to fuck
with me, I'll fuck with them back.
560
00:36:07,754 --> 00:36:12,655
But in a way that is funny, because
readers don't care about that.
561
00:36:12,695 --> 00:36:18,494
Like the readers of film thread do not
care about any of this gossip bs drama.
562
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:19,380
Right?
563
00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:21,090
They don't, at the end of
the day, they don't care.
564
00:36:21,470 --> 00:36:25,110
If I can turn it into something
funny and a joke, that's that
565
00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:30,040
was always what my tactic was,
was to just make it into a joke.
566
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:32,070
I just wanted to be entertaining.
567
00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:33,630
I wanted film threat.
568
00:36:33,869 --> 00:36:40,039
I wanted people to read film threat cover
to cover and with their mouth a gape at
569
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:42,280
I can't believe a magazine is doing this.
570
00:36:42,905 --> 00:36:46,835
I want to sort of go back to the rivalry
between film magazines, because in
571
00:36:46,835 --> 00:36:50,585
an issue of Blackest Heart there's
an article written by Sean Smith and
572
00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:55,705
Timothy Patrick where they're really bad
mouthing you, personally, saying that
573
00:36:55,715 --> 00:37:00,385
basically you bought a copy of one of
the guinea pig films from Chaz Ballon.
574
00:37:01,175 --> 00:37:04,615
Because you wanted to see about
distributing it through Film Threat
575
00:37:04,615 --> 00:37:09,344
Video Guide, but when you realized that
you weren't going to be able to get
576
00:37:09,345 --> 00:37:13,825
the distribution rights, you gave the
film to Charlie Sheen and encouraged
577
00:37:13,825 --> 00:37:18,664
him to report it to the FBI as sort of
a, a way to get back at Chaz Ballin.
578
00:37:19,355 --> 00:37:20,575
Is there any truth to that?
579
00:37:21,105 --> 00:37:23,145
That, that is not true at all.
580
00:37:23,835 --> 00:37:25,365
That is completely false.
581
00:37:25,365 --> 00:37:26,665
I don't know why they
would make that assumption.
582
00:37:26,665 --> 00:37:31,375
That seems pretty stupid, but no, I, um,
one, no, I didn't want to like, look,
583
00:37:31,385 --> 00:37:35,635
we wanted to distribute films legally
in the U S where we knew the filmmaker.
584
00:37:35,755 --> 00:37:37,235
I didn't know who made guinea pig.
585
00:37:37,485 --> 00:37:38,874
So I know Richard Kern.
586
00:37:38,905 --> 00:37:41,445
I know you're boot caret, right?
587
00:37:41,485 --> 00:37:44,755
Like I knew Steve Wang, it was filmmakers.
588
00:37:44,755 --> 00:37:45,425
We knew.
589
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,990
Who owned the movie and those are the
people, the filmmakers we dealt with.
590
00:37:50,990 --> 00:37:53,890
I didn't know the people
who created guinea pig.
591
00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:57,290
And also that probably would
have been a bridge too far for
592
00:37:57,350 --> 00:37:59,720
us because of the content of it.
593
00:37:59,959 --> 00:38:00,949
I mean, look, yes.
594
00:38:01,050 --> 00:38:06,080
Even coming from me, I distributed
at the time necromantic, right?
595
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,230
But, uh, you know, necromantic
was, it's obvious when you watch
596
00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:13,390
necromantic, it's a narrative film.
597
00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:14,420
It's a story.
598
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:21,500
You know, it's a horror film shot in super
eight, but, uh, yeah, uh, that's not true.
599
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:27,330
That's someone who doesn't know anything,
uh, coming up with some opinion about
600
00:38:27,350 --> 00:38:28,910
something they don't know anything about.
601
00:38:29,399 --> 00:38:32,229
Uh, I was there and yeah, I
was not trying to do that.
602
00:38:32,430 --> 00:38:37,370
That's, um, that's, uh, that's what they
call make news, which make news is when
603
00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:41,400
you don't have the facts, you make up
news, you fill in the gaps, but your
604
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,940
assumptions are based on your biases.
605
00:38:43,620 --> 00:38:43,970
Right.
606
00:38:44,110 --> 00:38:46,710
So they had a bias towards
making me look bad.
607
00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:51,110
And so that's kind of how they, how
they couched that that's pretty dumb.
608
00:38:51,985 --> 00:38:57,925
Look, professional jealousy and ankle
biters have plagued me my entire career.
609
00:38:58,205 --> 00:39:04,584
My policy is always to just ignore
idiots and, uh, they can try to keep up.
610
00:39:04,585 --> 00:39:05,324
I don't care.
611
00:39:05,614 --> 00:39:10,894
Um, because I have built film threat,
the brand over the years, I've always
612
00:39:10,894 --> 00:39:12,975
been a target, I've always been a target.
613
00:39:13,470 --> 00:39:14,850
And I don't care.
614
00:39:14,910 --> 00:39:18,950
I, I always say, like, I, you know, I'm
not trying to get into big fights with
615
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:23,739
people, but at the time I recognized
that I was definitely obnoxious.
616
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:28,129
I was definitely pushing the
limits in certain arenas and
617
00:39:28,129 --> 00:39:29,270
I pissed some people off.
618
00:39:29,379 --> 00:39:31,399
And, you know, if you're in this space.
619
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,590
May happen, so, and it happened.
620
00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:39,520
I think it's important to point out
that Gore was in his early 20s when
621
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,550
he founded Film Threat and, at least
relative to other indie mags of the
622
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:46,739
time, Film Threat was quite successful.
623
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,449
He was the new kid on the block and,
in his own words, was a bit obnoxious.
624
00:39:51,979 --> 00:39:55,510
And a lot of what Film Threat and Film
Threat Video Guide were doing at the
625
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:58,080
time was meant to push people's buttons.
626
00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:01,520
So it's no surprise
that they actually did.
627
00:40:02,170 --> 00:40:05,810
I love going to conventions and I was
there and sometimes, you know, sometimes I
628
00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:10,249
would catch people, you know, at the time
going to conventions, then selling bootleg
629
00:40:10,250 --> 00:40:12,270
copies of movies that we were selling.
630
00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:16,509
And that was annoying to me because we
got that we were sending money to the
631
00:40:16,509 --> 00:40:20,070
filmmakers and these bootleggers were
not sending money to the filmmakers.
632
00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:23,410
I had heard that Chaz
Balin had beef with me.
633
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,730
Um, and I didn't, I didn't exactly
understand why he had beef with me, but
634
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:33,050
it sounds like Chaz looking at what he,
his work, the had beef with a lot of
635
00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:37,880
people, like he was, there were some
constant drama with him back in the day.
636
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:41,309
I was at a horror convention
and Chaz Ballin was there and
637
00:40:41,309 --> 00:40:43,120
he tried to pour a beer on me.
638
00:40:43,810 --> 00:40:45,560
I was at a horror convention in LA.
639
00:40:45,610 --> 00:40:47,570
I heard that Chaz Ballin
was there as a guest.
640
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:49,470
Uh, I'm like, okay, cool.
641
00:40:49,470 --> 00:40:49,830
Whatever.
642
00:40:49,870 --> 00:40:50,739
And some.
643
00:40:51,535 --> 00:40:57,725
Some weird simpy fan found me, and it's
like, Oh, I'm gonna go get Chaz Balin.
644
00:40:57,955 --> 00:40:59,425
It's just this wimpy kid.
645
00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:01,425
And like, all right, well, cool.
646
00:41:01,425 --> 00:41:05,185
And Chaz Ballant, by the way, he's like,
looks like a big biker at the time.
647
00:41:05,185 --> 00:41:09,715
I know he's passed away, um, uh,
years ago, but he was a big guy.
648
00:41:09,745 --> 00:41:11,305
I'm like, look, I'm not small.
649
00:41:11,315 --> 00:41:12,255
I'm five 10.
650
00:41:12,915 --> 00:41:21,495
Uh, uh, but, uh, you know, um, he's over
six foot and looks like, uh, a biker dude.
651
00:41:22,075 --> 00:41:24,875
So, you know, there you go.
652
00:41:25,445 --> 00:41:28,895
Which is fine, but he, um, he
came up to me and he had a beer.
653
00:41:28,905 --> 00:41:30,545
He went to pour it on me.
654
00:41:30,815 --> 00:41:35,384
I deflected his hand and the beer spilled
all over the simpy guy that got him.
655
00:41:35,705 --> 00:41:36,565
It was awesome.
656
00:41:36,885 --> 00:41:40,555
I could not have, you know, one of
those things where it's like, you
657
00:41:40,565 --> 00:41:44,105
think of the thing you should have
said in the moment, or God, I should
658
00:41:44,105 --> 00:41:45,415
have done this instead of that.
659
00:41:45,555 --> 00:41:46,905
I actually did that thing.
660
00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:49,830
And it's one of the few times
I can think like, Oh my God,
661
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:51,370
it worked out perfectly for me.
662
00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:53,540
He tried to, went to pour a beer on me.
663
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:56,920
I just, I just moved his hand a little
bit and it went all over the doodoo.
664
00:41:57,110 --> 00:42:00,930
Like went to get Chaz Ballant to
tell on, you know, like Gore is here.
665
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,220
Um, I mean, that was like, whatever people
can have their different interpretations.
666
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,640
I feel it's my obligation
to tell you the truth.
667
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:13,370
As I see it happen to me, and I can
only tell you the one side of my
668
00:42:13,370 --> 00:42:17,409
story, like Chaz Balin can talk about
what an asshole I was, or he can talk
669
00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:20,770
about, like, he can make assumptions
about what I was trying to do.
670
00:42:20,770 --> 00:42:23,099
I was trying, I wasn't trying
to ruin anybody's life.
671
00:42:23,099 --> 00:42:27,830
I was trying to entertain, uh, Charlie
Sheen via my buddy, Adam Rifkin.
672
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:29,060
That's it.
673
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,780
Like, I was trying to give him a video.
674
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:33,850
I didn't think much of
it, um, at the time.
675
00:42:34,340 --> 00:42:37,640
So, and it's not like anybody
went to prison over it.
676
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,020
I mean.
677
00:42:38,865 --> 00:42:43,625
They ended up basically determining,
you know, it wasn't a real thing, so
678
00:42:44,205 --> 00:42:48,195
they still, Charlie Sheen came out
looking like just a guy who likes
679
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,395
to watch weird videos, I guess.
680
00:42:50,305 --> 00:42:53,845
And if you've ever seen Flower of
Flesh and Blood and you're wondering
681
00:42:53,845 --> 00:42:58,795
how Charlie Sheen could have possibly
mistaken it for a real snuff film, bear
682
00:42:58,795 --> 00:43:01,345
in mind, this was the early nineties.
683
00:43:02,165 --> 00:43:05,915
The Guinea pig films had never
been released outside of Japan, and
684
00:43:05,915 --> 00:43:09,335
the Otaku murders didn't receive
a lot of attention in the West.
685
00:43:09,995 --> 00:43:13,985
The number of people who knew about
the Guinea pig films, even in hardcore
686
00:43:13,985 --> 00:43:16,115
horror circles, was very small.
687
00:43:16,805 --> 00:43:22,255
Now, Guinea pig, to be clear,
is a Japanese fake snuff film.
688
00:43:22,890 --> 00:43:23,975
It is not real.
689
00:43:24,495 --> 00:43:31,025
However, if you've on VHS,
copied it, copied it, copied it.
690
00:43:31,355 --> 00:43:33,065
I can see how someone.
691
00:43:41,605 --> 00:43:45,884
So, after all this, what does the
true version of events in the Charlie
692
00:43:45,884 --> 00:43:48,134
Sheen Guinea Pig affair look like?
693
00:43:48,685 --> 00:43:50,105
It goes something like this.
694
00:43:51,055 --> 00:43:54,085
The editor in chief of Film
Threat Video Guide, David E.
695
00:43:54,085 --> 00:43:58,395
Williams, got a copy of Flower of
Flesh and Blood via tape trading,
696
00:43:58,525 --> 00:44:00,865
possibly from Richard Kern or Nick Zedd.
697
00:44:01,420 --> 00:44:01,900
David E.
698
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:04,730
Williams gives Chris
Gore a copy of that tape.
699
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:07,780
Chris Gore gives a copy to Adam Rifkin.
700
00:44:08,410 --> 00:44:10,680
Adam Rifkin gives it to Charlie Sheen.
701
00:44:11,250 --> 00:44:13,500
Charlie Sheen gives it to the FBI.
702
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,120
The FBI, like many other law
enforcement agencies before them,
703
00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:22,539
determines that Flower of Flesh
and Blood is not a real snuff film.
704
00:44:23,020 --> 00:44:27,800
The media catches wind of the incident and
forms it into a story about a Hollywood
705
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,900
actor being an upstanding citizen.
706
00:44:30,505 --> 00:44:34,925
Time passes and the public perception
of Charlie Sheen drastically changes.
707
00:44:35,205 --> 00:44:39,025
So the story is now reframed as
just another instance of Sheen's
708
00:44:39,164 --> 00:44:41,165
well documented eccentricity.
709
00:44:41,715 --> 00:44:46,075
And the particulars and nuance of
the story are all but lost to time,
710
00:44:46,364 --> 00:44:50,665
surviving only in the memories of the
scant few people who were actually there.
711
00:44:51,535 --> 00:44:54,625
And it's a shame, really,
because, at least in this case,
712
00:44:55,005 --> 00:44:56,115
the truth of the matter...
713
00:44:56,425 --> 00:45:00,505
Is much more interesting than the
urban legend that was formed out of it.
714
00:45:07,005 --> 00:45:11,055
Mount Mole Hill is written,
produced, and edited by me, Chris.
715
00:45:11,175 --> 00:45:13,624
With music by myself and Alex Painter.
716
00:45:14,574 --> 00:45:18,654
A very special thank you to Chris Gore
for sitting down for an interview with me.
717
00:45:18,845 --> 00:45:21,224
I'll post a link to the full
interview in the show notes.
718
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:26,110
Special thanks to DK from Nerds, Geeks,
and the Kitchen Sink for helping me
719
00:45:26,110 --> 00:45:30,259
out, and to George from The Best Little
Horror House in Philly, and Bones
720
00:45:30,259 --> 00:45:34,009
from the Five Day Rentals podcast
for providing the voices of David E.
721
00:45:34,009 --> 00:45:35,570
Williams and Sean Smith.
722
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:41,080
All other voices featured in this episode
apart from my own are computer generated.
723
00:45:41,105 --> 00:45:45,405
All of the sources used in this
episode can be found in the show notes.
724
00:45:45,865 --> 00:45:49,435
If you have a molehill that you'd like
me to turn into a mountain, whether it's
725
00:45:49,435 --> 00:45:53,545
a mystery that you just can't solve,
or just an interesting topic you'd like
726
00:45:53,545 --> 00:45:55,665
me to delve into, please reach out.
727
00:45:56,205 --> 00:46:00,105
You can email me at Mount
Molehill podcast@gmail.com,
728
00:46:00,315 --> 00:46:06,375
or you can call and leave me a
voicemail at 5 0 5 2 1 8 6 8 9 4.
729
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:11,320
Follow us on Instagram to see updates
and supplemental material for the show.
730
00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:15,190
Thanks for listening to the
pilot season of Mount Mole Hill.
731
00:46:15,539 --> 00:46:18,200
Once again, thank you to anyone
who has listened to the show
732
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,630
or helped me out along the way.
733
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:22,320
And if you'd like to hear more
episodes of the show in the
734
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,450
future, please, just let me know.
735
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:25,939
Thanks for listening.
