Ep #11: No Shortcuts. Backyard Designers, AI Slop, and the Leadership Squeeze

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Jonny: Hi everyone, and welcome
to another episode of the Near
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Future Podcast with Tom and Jonny.
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I've been away for a couple of weeks.
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I'm excited to get back into podcasting.
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In fact, this is the first podcast we've
done, just Tom and I without a guest
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for a few weeks now, over a month maybe.
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Tom: Yeah, probably a month.
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Jonny: yeah.
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so let's see if just Tom and I as a,
podcast holds up still, or whether
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everyone here is like, oh, we want
someone more interesting on, maybe
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we can, we've got some good topics.
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I think, we've got something
meaty to, talk about.
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So we'll, we'll see, where we get to.
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As always, if you have feedback on the
podcast or want to suggest a topic or
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a guest or you'd like to be a guest
yourself, just email, podcast at
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near Future works and, we're really
up for any feedback and ways to
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improve as we build this media empire.
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It's an empire, a, a mini
Empire, Mac Empire, dunno.
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Okay, let's move on.
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Tom: it.
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Jonny: Over Smooth Jonny Smooth.
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Tom: Before we jump in though,
Jonny, we've gotta touch on the, the
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fact that you do have internet now.
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this is a big step change that
was not true a few hours ago.
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Jonny: Yeah.
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Tom: so if
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Jonny: I dunno if you guys
have heard about the internet.
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It's, pretty good.
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I, yeah, backstory on this and the
reason why I haven't been, I wasn't
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around for IN'S podcast the last episode.
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and actually we recorded a
couple in advance so that we
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could release one every week.
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So you may not have noticed any of it,
but I was moving house for the last,
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what feels like 15 years, but actually
it was only the last couple of weeks.
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And then I went camping.
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So I had, a very stressful house move
and then no internet on a campsite,
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and now no internet for the last
week while we've been moving back in.
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And I got the internet about an hour
ago, and it's like 500 meg and I, I
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have so much internet, I dunno what to
do with myself, with all my internet.
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I might just start downloading Torrance.
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I don't know.
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So, yeah, I, I'm excited to be back.
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I haven't really read much of the internet
over the last two or three weeks either.
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So, I think there's a couple of things
that I've noticed, but yeah, I, I feel
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like two weeks without being on top of
AI news is, is basically a lifetime.
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So consider me in the stone ages.
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But yeah, so I excited to be back
on here and, continuing the pods.
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Tom: Amazing.
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it's great to have you back, Jonny.
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I'm excited this conversation and,
just managing to squeeze it in before
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the weekend, which is extra good.
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my, my week, my few weeks have
been, fun, less, less camping and
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house moving, but, it is the summer
holidays here in London, in England.
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And so if you have kids of a certain
age, then you are familiar with the,
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the fun adventure that is summer
camp schedules and running around
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those and jumping back and forth.
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And I need to wrap up a bit early today
to pick up a child from summer camp.
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But anyway, enough about ad, enough
about life and admin, and parenting.
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we're gonna move on.
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So I thought it'd be fun to just
kick off with checking in on
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how the podcast has been going.
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as you said, Jonny, we've been, it's
been a month since our last duo episode.
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Is that the right word for it?
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Just the one with just the two of us.
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And we've had a bunch of guests.
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We had Abby from Deal Domingo,
from Finn, Holly and Josh and Wise
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and, in, from Air Ops, a bunch of
really interesting conversations.
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any thoughts or reflections
you've had on those since.
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Jonny: Yeah, my first is a metaphor, which
was we started off a podcast together
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and then we thought we should get some
guests on, and now suddenly we have not
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only four guest interviews, but we've
got loads more lined up, really awesome
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people, just so excited about them.
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And so it feels indulgent now to
be doing one without guests, even
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though, over half of our released
episodes are without guests.
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I think it's been fascinating and it makes
you realise how diverse the landscape is
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around, around attitudes to AI progress
through it, how people are seeing, how it
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influences their teams, whether it's, you
know, super senior IC folks versus, uh,
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like, Josh and Holly at Wise, who are,
who are leading hundreds of designers.
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Uh, just all you get a real sense
of all of the different challenges.
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I'll start with the first one,
Avi, and by the way, like everyone
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should go back and listen to these
'cause they're good interviews.
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But, Avi at Deal, just the most sort
of hardcore like builder, deciding
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not to just build things for himself,
but then building for his team and
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now deciding to build something that
he hopes will take over from Jira.
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he is taking on just small vibe coding
pro projects, but just the most, token
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burning AI pills, of all maybe, and maybe
reflective of deals culture and them
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being just absolutely hardcore leaning
into AI across, across the business.
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And, dropping Figma and all of that
kind of stuff is just, I thought that
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was a really fascinating as a and a
good start for our, guest appearances.
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How about you?
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Tom: Yeah, totally.
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it's funny, actually hearing you talk
about that was making me think about
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the one theme that I think has been
true across all guests is, not just
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a willingness, but an excitedness
lean in and your hands on the tools
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and make things and try things out.
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almost with, without necessarily needing
for it to be the new Jira in your
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company, but just starting from a place
of, oh, we can just make things now.
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We can just do things like,
let's try and see what happens.
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And that seems to be a, seems
to have been a common thread.
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And, of those conversations, even
though it's taken maybe a different
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form for, a person who is primarily
a people manager or primarily,
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hands-on, day-to-day as an individual
contributor, does change the shape a bit.
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But there is this fundamental you need to
get your hands on and be trying to make
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things, or not just trying to make things,
making things, in this new world to just
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get a real feel for what's possible and
how it could impact your day or your work.
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Jonny: Yeah, even our, leaders like
Holly and Josh and Avi are building
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and build and, they're going home and
building and it just, you, have to
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get your, hands on this technology and
this, everything about, what's happening
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to, to the industry to really feel
confident that you know how to navigate
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others through it as well as yourself.
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Tom: Yeah.
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Jonny: and the leverage that you get from
having, knowing a little bit more, being
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a little bit more levelled up yourself,
in terms of whether it's actually just
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so you can hire people that are more
appropriate or for your culture or
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more AI build or something like that.
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Tom: Definitely I do.
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I do think there's, a couple
of, specifically that I'm,
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I've been reflecting on.
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One is the, that Josh said about, I
don't hire managers or general managers.
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I, only hire managers who are
close to the tools and designers
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of practise need to be hands on.
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And then Domingo in the conversation
with Domingo, I think it was actually
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you that said this, but it resonated for
the conversation, which is that taste
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is earned through getting the reps in.
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And you can't use AI to
take a shortcut with that.
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those two things together feel
like a good temperature check on
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all of these conversations where
it doesn't matter if you are,
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established as a people leader
inside big organisations that
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are working through this stuff.
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You need to space and make time to
actually get hands on, actually make
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things and remember that this is a, a,
a practise that you learn through doing,
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not just through talking or pontificating
or, imagining because all of these things
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are being reimagined right now live.
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and so yeah, getting your hands on as
part of that, regardless of what your role
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is, a really important theme right now.
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Jonny: Yeah, I think there's something
counterintuitive about the promise
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of AI being able to do a bunch of the
design for us, or, raises the floor.
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I think Josh said design raises the
floor, doesn't raise the ceiling.
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I think that's something that we've
always said as well in, in, in, in
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client work and stuff like that.
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but, there's something counterintuitive
like I might have said two years
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ago, as AI comes for design, great,
this is gonna mean I can do better
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design work while having spent less
time learning how to do design work.
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and for, for us, as we've spent
the last five, 10 years doing some
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design, but actually not necessarily
spending all of our time in the tools.
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Great.
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Now, now, now we don't have
to worry about relearning.
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I now couldn't, I think I, I
think the opposite actually.
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I think there is, there.
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AI gives you no shortcut at all.
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I think it gives you a shortcut
if you're not a designer to put
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something together that's possible.
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And that looks convincing.
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I think if you're actually a designer,
the Overton window has moved so quickly
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from, you know, if, if two years ago I'd
put together like a cool landing page with
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loads of shaders and lots of animation,
stuff like that, people would be like,
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oh, can't believe you did that yourself.
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you're a double threat,
et cetera, et cetera.
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And now, anyone can do that within reason.
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And, you know, anyone can throw more
effects, can throw more, uh, cool stuff,
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cool technology at their design work.
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And so therefore that is ordinary now.
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And actually it becomes, the
taste becomes about removal and
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becomes about having an opinion.
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And, that hasn't gone anywhere.
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And it turns, out that ai, uh,
design is the opposite of cooks.
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I think actually, I think, and I've
come to this myself also designing
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things over the last six months and
looking at them and being like, that's
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not better because I used AI to do it.
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In fact, I feel like I have spent
just as long getting to something
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that is better than average.
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Average has moved, but
better than average.
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so yeah, I think a lot of what Josh was
saying, especially, is it really resonates
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with my personal experience of designing
in the era of, oh Lord 2026, and realising
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that like, oh, there's no shortcut really.
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Like Claude Design can put together a sort
of convincing mid-level design system,
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or you can put together a mood board in
the chat, in the, open AI image models.
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But now anyone can do that.
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It has to be better
than that by definition.
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So, anyway, I just,
disappeared into a rant.
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Tom: No, I that a lot of what you're
saying resonates with me as well.
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And it reminds me of this post I saw
going around the internet, which I
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have not shared with you, but maybe
you saw it about, there's something on
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Hacker News that was about, if I see an
AI generated image at the top of your
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blog, post, I'll change the tab or I'll
close the tab or I'm not gonna read it.
00:11:29.606 --> 00:11:36.806
but I think it speaks to a similar theme
of the level of what is average design is
00:11:36.806 --> 00:11:40.016
reaching a point where we are becoming,
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accustomed to it or attuned to
like this aesthetic quality of it,
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which is almost repulsive a way.
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repulsive is a, is an extreme word, but,
but it does carry this effect of I think
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carrying a lot of the baggage of, oh, you
haven't, you must not thought about the
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words in your piece if you're using an AI
generated image to summarise it, which I
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think is maybe a little bit logically that
doesn't sit right with me, like it feels
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a bit over the top to discount the written
content of a post because of an image.
00:12:17.546 --> 00:12:22.886
But I totally understand why that
feeling exists, and I think it will
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be fair to say that I've experienced
that as well of just getting to a page
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and being like, oh, do I really, is it
really worth my time to read this based
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Jonny: set, it, starts with a level of
sort of disrespect for the reader almost.
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That you are like, I'm not gonna,
even though a lot of people that
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write very well probably can't
image, make themselves, they
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can't, they don't have that skill.
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So it would make complete sense for
them to use a AI generated image.
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So it's not necessarily a reflection
of the words, but straight away it's
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I don't know.
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Is this gonna be, is it
all gonna be like this?
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if you haven't bothered to write
it, should I bother to read it?
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Yeah.
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All of that kind of thing.
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I haven't, read this, article by
the way, filling in the blanks, but.
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Tom: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think it was actually written
a couple of years ago, so this was
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at an earlier era of AI generated imagery.
00:13:14.300 --> 00:13:19.605
but I, but yeah, I think it, I do find
that kind of fascinating and 'cause I
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completely agree with you and I remember
us having a conversation maybe a year or
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so ago about exactly this, where you can,
you don't have the time or capability to
00:13:31.485 --> 00:13:38.415
make image assets for a post to accompany
or your thing that you've, your newsletter
00:13:38.415 --> 00:13:43.615
or whatever it is that you're putting
out there, can you, like, how could you
00:13:43.615 --> 00:13:48.265
augment that with some design direction
or art direction that you could have
00:13:48.265 --> 00:13:49.915
consistent between your posts every week?
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And it would look decent and wouldn't
take you forever to produce, but you
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don't need to commission an illustrator
for your blog that has 10 readers.
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and I feel like we've made me come full
circle of year ago or two years ago, that
00:14:00.765 --> 00:14:06.765
was possibility that AI introduced and
now it's like actually doing more harm
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to do that than, having nothing at all.
00:14:09.045 --> 00:14:13.935
and yeah, the, all the advantages that
social media would train us into having
00:14:13.935 --> 00:14:18.645
images to accompany posts that we're
sharing, on social networks is maybe
00:14:18.645 --> 00:14:22.515
reverting to like actually having no
image at all, having a blank or, just a
00:14:23.295 --> 00:14:29.725
very, scrappy sketch, that is very clearly
human, is doing more to create a sense of
00:14:29.725 --> 00:14:37.975
authenticity and real value than polished
image that previously would've done a
00:14:37.975 --> 00:14:39.685
lot of the work of communicating the
00:14:40.645 --> 00:14:41.605
premium feel
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Jonny: I,
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Tom: of article.
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Jonny: yeah, I wonder if it's,
I think it's also, it's not just
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AI generated, it is you couldn't
move it enough away from the like,
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mean image that is created by ai.
00:14:56.458 --> 00:14:59.008
You couldn't even art direct it
enough to try and make it not look
00:14:59.008 --> 00:15:02.663
like ai, because actually AI can
create images that looks not ai.
00:15:03.448 --> 00:15:07.588
like it could create a sketchy looking
thing that looks like it was made by you,
00:15:07.588 --> 00:15:13.018
or it could create something that was like
photographic and looked like it was shot
00:15:15.088 --> 00:15:18.538
on a, fancy camera with a
gnarly film or whatever.
00:15:18.988 --> 00:15:22.828
you could, take it there, but if
you haven't, if you've just typed in
00:15:23.218 --> 00:15:27.568
man, sitting on a chair into chat,
BT and then taken that and not really
00:15:28.318 --> 00:15:29.938
thought whether that was okay or not.
00:15:31.108 --> 00:15:35.378
a bit like, I think we've broadly, I,
we've probably talked on this podcast
00:15:35.378 --> 00:15:40.808
before about not feeling that comfortable
getting AI to write for you, but,
00:15:41.468 --> 00:15:46.658
these models are really good as, as
editors and rubber ducks to just sort
00:15:46.658 --> 00:15:48.908
of feedback like, does this make sense?
00:15:48.908 --> 00:15:50.918
Like, is there something, does it flow?
00:15:51.008 --> 00:15:53.228
Am I missing, could
this point be stronger?
00:15:53.598 --> 00:15:56.048
that's really valuable, as a critic.
00:15:57.788 --> 00:16:02.438
But if you're just like, can you write
me a blog post about SEO and then just
00:16:02.528 --> 00:16:05.198
don't read it and just put it out,
then obviously that's, that's bad.
00:16:05.438 --> 00:16:08.198
or even your agent just
publishes it without telling
00:16:08.198 --> 00:16:10.268
you and puts your name under it.
00:16:11.025 --> 00:16:11.415
Tom: Yeah.
00:16:11.518 --> 00:16:12.388
Yeah, totally.
00:16:13.078 --> 00:16:17.998
It's, it's fascinating and Substack
recently released, an AI detector feature.
00:16:18.058 --> 00:16:19.288
I dunno if you saw that, Jonny.
00:16:19.568 --> 00:16:23.258
I think you can go onto any
post and was this created by ai?
00:16:23.378 --> 00:16:25.808
And it does some, some kind
of detection around that.
00:16:26.468 --> 00:16:27.188
haven't tried it out yet.
00:16:27.188 --> 00:16:28.028
Dunno how it works.
00:16:28.028 --> 00:16:34.978
But, fascinating we're getting into
this world of like, what is, what was
00:16:34.978 --> 00:16:40.378
fresh and new a year or two ago is
now already so old that it's, slipping
00:16:40.430 --> 00:16:40.850
Jonny: Yeah.
00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:42.080
Yeah.
00:16:42.088 --> 00:16:46.618
Tom: think you're, the point you're
making, there is right of about using
00:16:46.678 --> 00:16:54.598
that technology on its own and more about
how are you pushing or, reaching new
00:16:56.338 --> 00:17:00.958
what's possible through using it
well, rather than just using it.
00:17:01.582 --> 00:17:01.942
Jonny: Yeah.
00:17:02.212 --> 00:17:02.512
Yeah.
00:17:03.022 --> 00:17:07.132
A good artist has the same paints
as a bad artist, but the good
00:17:07.132 --> 00:17:09.142
artist knows how to use them better.
00:17:09.592 --> 00:17:10.912
Maybe that's a bad analogy.
00:17:10.912 --> 00:17:11.302
I don't know.
00:17:12.232 --> 00:17:15.082
There was, actually, this does
remind me of a tool that I saw.
00:17:15.472 --> 00:17:20.242
In fact, one of my old investors,
Sarah, has invested in a company
00:17:20.962 --> 00:17:24.652
called Ellipsis, which is like a
writing tool, but it's very anti ai.
00:17:25.312 --> 00:17:30.802
it's like a, a writing thing
that, for writers that is
00:17:30.802 --> 00:17:32.482
proudly, there's no AI in it.
00:17:32.842 --> 00:17:36.172
And they, they've been trying to work
on a problem, which is how do you
00:17:36.172 --> 00:17:37.882
prove that this wasn't AI written?
00:17:38.632 --> 00:17:42.142
And they've released something, I
think this week, uh, I saw it just
00:17:42.142 --> 00:17:46.132
this morning where they, where
you can demonstrate proof of work.
00:17:46.132 --> 00:17:50.962
So you can show this piece of writing and
then you can say how long it was taken to
00:17:50.962 --> 00:17:55.342
write, how many words it, you can see all
the edit history and things like that.
00:17:55.912 --> 00:18:00.532
and that would be incr and, it's, I dunno
if it's on the blockchain, but it's, it's
00:18:00.532 --> 00:18:06.462
in some way sort of, immutable, uh, so
that I can show you, I've written this
00:18:06.462 --> 00:18:10.512
piece and it was written by me and there
was no AI used, and I have proof of that.
00:18:11.322 --> 00:18:15.432
And that might be quite niche in a
way that the sort of need for that,
00:18:15.432 --> 00:18:18.852
maybe an academic writing or something
like that would be really valuable.
00:18:19.452 --> 00:18:21.662
But, but it's interesting that
people are working on this problem.
00:18:21.872 --> 00:18:25.622
And I do think that there is, I, if
I know something has been created
00:18:25.622 --> 00:18:28.022
by hand, I absolutely value it more.
00:18:28.322 --> 00:18:32.702
I would, and I think that feeling will
only increase in me and increase in, in
00:18:32.702 --> 00:18:37.492
the world generally as we see more and
more slop and, and actually, LinkedIn
00:18:37.492 --> 00:18:39.382
now has a, this is an AI slot button.
00:18:39.382 --> 00:18:43.522
You can report a poster as AI lop,
I think a couple of the other.
00:18:44.192 --> 00:18:46.952
social platforms have done that as well.
00:18:46.982 --> 00:18:51.272
So yeah, it would be, it'd be interesting
to, to see this kind of thing evolve,
00:18:51.482 --> 00:18:57.272
this sort of re reaction against the,
the worst bits of, this technology.
00:18:58.622 --> 00:18:59.222
Tom: Fascinating.
00:18:59.692 --> 00:19:03.712
slight tangent, but just a close
loop on our podcast guests, hearing
00:19:03.712 --> 00:19:06.832
you talk about that reminds me a
little bit of our conversation or
00:19:06.832 --> 00:19:14.882
my conversation with I, ops who
built this, wireless in the browser.
00:19:15.692 --> 00:19:20.732
And, a part of that conversation
was around how long she spent
00:19:21.602 --> 00:19:23.852
getting the sound of rain, right?
00:19:24.282 --> 00:19:27.402
for this specific kind
of Nigerian tin roof.
00:19:27.782 --> 00:19:30.302
that was very, a very different rain
sound than you hear in the west.
00:19:31.202 --> 00:19:39.302
and the level of detail that she went
into there was, incredibly impressive for
00:19:39.332 --> 00:19:43.892
a part of the experience that I imagine
many people going to that site would
00:19:44.162 --> 00:19:48.992
not necessarily have found themselves
tuned to the right radio station while
00:19:50.102 --> 00:19:51.962
the rain mode on the tin roof.
00:19:52.202 --> 00:19:57.512
but yeah, there is that level of, if
you can like, push your sort of detail
00:19:57.512 --> 00:20:02.492
oriented attention to detail into
all these different directions and
00:20:02.492 --> 00:20:06.752
angles, like what kind of interesting
craft question does that open up?
00:20:06.872 --> 00:20:11.642
And I thought that was a really one,
which feels like a very, quite far away
00:20:11.642 --> 00:20:13.922
from image generation and, writing.
00:20:14.102 --> 00:20:19.052
But there is maybe a quality of,
you something that you're happy with
00:20:19.052 --> 00:20:24.032
and you've built, how do you use
AI to push at the edges to really
00:20:25.082 --> 00:20:30.092
exaggerate some of the details of that
image or that piece of text or that
00:20:30.384 --> 00:20:30.684
Jonny: Yeah.
00:20:30.882 --> 00:20:36.402
Tom: to really bring it to life in
a way that does feel, human, but re
00:20:36.702 --> 00:20:40.452
obviously requires AI to produce it and
get to that level in the first place.
00:20:40.620 --> 00:20:45.870
Jonny: Yeah, I think Innis, that
project is a perfect example of this
00:20:45.870 --> 00:20:49.470
new technology used as a tool to
build something that Inni couldn't
00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:54.090
have built or would've taken a very
long time to build without, it.
00:20:54.600 --> 00:20:58.560
But it doesn't at all take away
from the concept and the impact that
00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:01.320
the, the project has it in itself.
00:21:01.320 --> 00:21:05.550
And so therefore, it's the
opposite of slop, I would say.
00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:09.240
I think it's like a perfect use
case for I'm gonna leverage this
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.480
technology to create something that
I can imagine, but I wouldn't have
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:17.580
been able to create otherwise and
doesn't feel derivative in any way.
00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:20.160
It feels like something that
is very personal to her.
00:21:20.430 --> 00:21:21.020
And, yeah.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.290
long may stuff like that continue,
and I think we've, we're gonna
00:21:24.290 --> 00:21:27.200
talk about another of those a bit
later, another project like that.
00:21:28.116 --> 00:21:29.106
Tom: I think we should just jump in.
00:21:29.120 --> 00:21:29.750
Jonny: let's move on.
00:21:29.810 --> 00:21:29.990
Yeah.
00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:30.950
Let's move on to it, shall we?
00:21:31.370 --> 00:21:31.610
Yeah.
00:21:32.376 --> 00:21:38.346
Tom: So tell us, so we, we've been, look,
we've been observing, seeing backyard
00:21:38.346 --> 00:21:41.286
designers break out on the internet.
00:21:41.376 --> 00:21:42.696
Backyard designers.club,
00:21:43.756 --> 00:21:47.326
is a, a design community online.
00:21:48.826 --> 00:21:50.476
Actually, how would you describe this?
00:21:50.656 --> 00:21:55.636
It's like an online
sticker album of design
00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:57.850
Jonny: it's, I think it's
like fantasy football.
00:21:57.850 --> 00:22:01.360
I, for those people that know what
fantasy football is, it feels like that.
00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:06.970
You like pick your team of designers and
then there's no, I don't think there's
00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:13.330
any way to put, your team against another
team, but you have a budget of X Twitter
00:22:13.330 --> 00:22:18.550
followers to use and each designer has a
following and you can spend ins on there.
00:22:18.550 --> 00:22:22.390
I think actually, you can spend, uh,
your budget however you want, and
00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:26.100
you put together a roster of seven
designers and, and then you can sort of
00:22:26.100 --> 00:22:30.960
share that it's sort of like a social
sharing thing, but the, the, the website
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:38.370
itself is so completely delightful
as another example of, designers who
00:22:38.370 --> 00:22:42.900
previously wouldn't have been able to
justify creating anything that looked
00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:46.710
like this, being able to enhance and
create this like, extraordinary like
00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:48.900
game-like rich experience on a website.
00:22:49.620 --> 00:22:54.480
So when we talked about talking about
this, there's kind of two bits of it
00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.730
that I think we planned on covering.
00:22:56.730 --> 00:22:59.850
And one is just the craft of the actual
experience of the website itself.
00:23:00.060 --> 00:23:04.920
And the other is the hoo-ha, to
use maybe a quite British phrase.
00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:10.680
the sort of explosion of opinion
and positive and negative sentiment
00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:13.800
around, around it afterwards.
00:23:13.800 --> 00:23:21.180
Because this is a curated site where the
two creators, Tommy and Rid, who are very,
00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:26.760
very well known designers in their own
right on Twitter, I'm not gonna call it X.
00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:33.870
they have pulled from their network and
typically, and the currency is Twitter
00:23:33.870 --> 00:23:36.930
followers, which in itself is interesting.
00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:41.460
the implication being like, the
more Twitter followers you have, the
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:46.230
better a designer you are is, implied
by the mechanic on this website.
00:23:48.690 --> 00:23:50.880
So, yeah, like, let, let's
start with the first one.
00:23:51.130 --> 00:23:52.390
the, the craft.
00:23:52.390 --> 00:23:55.850
And, I don't, let's not screen share
it, I suppose, 'cause like people can go
00:23:55.850 --> 00:23:58.490
to it, people should just go to it and
play with it, rather than watching us.
00:23:58.490 --> 00:24:01.790
But, but you should go and play with
it if you're watching us open it in
00:24:01.790 --> 00:24:04.760
another tab, backyard Designers Club.
00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:06.020
And then,
00:24:08.275 --> 00:24:12.940
a another chap created, bro cast
designers as a reaction to it that we'll
00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:15.340
get to, but sort similar experience.
00:24:16.090 --> 00:24:20.230
Tom, like what, just interested
in your thoughts on the sort
00:24:20.230 --> 00:24:22.300
of craft and playfulness of it.
00:24:23.876 --> 00:24:25.196
Tom: Think it's, super.
00:24:25.916 --> 00:24:28.226
I think you covered it well, but yeah.
00:24:28.256 --> 00:24:32.906
Very delightful vi visual
polish visual detail.
00:24:32.906 --> 00:24:35.066
I actually like the sound
design throughout all of it.
00:24:35.066 --> 00:24:41.156
There's this, this sort of game-like
quality to it and it's very light
00:24:41.156 --> 00:24:45.686
and bouncy and you feel like you are,
it feels like Pokemon or something.
00:24:45.686 --> 00:24:50.126
Not that I have actually played
Pokemon Confession, but it's
00:24:50.126 --> 00:24:51.771
still, it's it, feels fun and
00:24:51.891 --> 00:24:54.771
Jonny: you call yourself a millennial
and you never play Pokemon God.
00:24:56.541 --> 00:24:56.901
Tom: Yeah.
00:24:56.931 --> 00:24:58.281
Out outed myself.
00:24:58.611 --> 00:25:01.431
yeah, it's just a, a, really fun thing.
00:25:01.431 --> 00:25:05.751
I think there's something about
the, aesthetic quality as well of
00:25:05.751 --> 00:25:13.731
the characters in it as well, that
feels very fun and playful and also
00:25:13.731 --> 00:25:18.741
expressive, but in a way that doesn't
feel like AI slop by any means.
00:25:19.161 --> 00:25:24.881
And I think there's a lot of nice
animation motion, visual design,
00:25:24.881 --> 00:25:29.591
sound design, a lot of really
nice playful qualities to the,
00:25:29.711 --> 00:25:31.061
the quality of the experience.
00:25:31.241 --> 00:25:37.691
And even in the commentary version, the
broadcast designers, which, super fun.
00:25:38.041 --> 00:25:41.071
I think there's a lot of similar qualities
to how that was executed as well.
00:25:41.131 --> 00:25:45.481
So for in terms of experience,
quality, great work all round,
00:25:46.697 --> 00:25:47.147
Jonny: Is it.
00:25:48.091 --> 00:25:48.421
Tom: sorry.
00:25:49.385 --> 00:25:49.865
Jonny: No, you go.
00:25:49.925 --> 00:25:50.135
You go.
00:25:51.491 --> 00:25:55.361
Tom: but I think it does raise
some interesting questions about
00:25:55.841 --> 00:25:58.811
the sort of community aspect
or the hoo-ha as you call it.
00:25:58.811 --> 00:26:00.431
Jonny, do you wanna move on to that yet?
00:26:00.431 --> 00:26:02.501
Or, I think you were maybe
gonna say something else
00:26:02.501 --> 00:26:07.061
Jonny: one thing that I was
pondering was the speed with which
00:26:07.061 --> 00:26:09.551
this clone basically came to be.
00:26:10.601 --> 00:26:15.821
And this, the original idea
was truly an original thought.
00:26:15.821 --> 00:26:20.381
I think, I dunno if it was rid or Tommy
or both of them that put this together and
00:26:20.381 --> 00:26:24.581
the aesthetic and the like, art direction
of it all and making it feel like a sort
00:26:24.581 --> 00:26:29.321
of, uh, I can't remember the genre of
video game, but like a cute sort of,
00:26:32.021 --> 00:26:35.081
fun casual game, uh,
that, that you can play.
00:26:35.081 --> 00:26:36.401
It really feels very game-like.
00:26:36.671 --> 00:26:40.261
That was a truly original,
piece of design work.
00:26:41.161 --> 00:26:45.121
And then presumably, I don't know if the
code is open source or something like
00:26:45.121 --> 00:26:51.841
that, but you could then just, this, this
other guy just pointed his AI at it and
00:26:51.841 --> 00:26:55.951
said, make another one, but make it really
dystopian and make everyone look sad
00:26:56.311 --> 00:26:58.891
and probably didn't need too much more.
00:26:58.981 --> 00:27:01.591
I mean, I'm sure there was more work
there than that, but what, once the
00:27:01.591 --> 00:27:05.191
original thoughts has been had, how
quickly it can be sort of cloned and,
00:27:05.191 --> 00:27:10.601
and, someone can create a satirical,
or a commentary version of it.
00:27:11.441 --> 00:27:15.941
So like, what is, it's back to
like, where is the designer's
00:27:15.941 --> 00:27:19.091
unique ability in all of this?
00:27:19.781 --> 00:27:25.031
I think that that was a, a, a great
original piece of design that happened
00:27:25.511 --> 00:27:29.831
that then as soon as it was put
out there, became everyone's, and
00:27:30.641 --> 00:27:34.031
the, moat or the like defensibility
of that idea was very, very low.
00:27:34.151 --> 00:27:35.861
It turns out, at least technically.
00:27:36.401 --> 00:27:37.511
so yeah, it's, it is hard.
00:27:37.511 --> 00:27:41.291
It's, it, the pressure to have an original
thought I think is like very high at the
00:27:41.291 --> 00:27:48.041
moment because everything sort of looks
the same or like people just jump on these
00:27:48.041 --> 00:27:50.591
trends, these design trends quite quickly.
00:27:50.591 --> 00:27:54.641
So to try and find something
that an AI couldn't do basically,
00:27:54.641 --> 00:27:55.601
or wouldn't have thought of.
00:27:56.171 --> 00:28:00.491
yeah, I suppose that was my last
thought on the, the visuals of it.
00:28:00.606 --> 00:28:01.721
I think it's really cool.
00:28:01.901 --> 00:28:05.621
Yeah, sound design, people forget about
sound design I think is really good.
00:28:06.236 --> 00:28:06.506
Tom: Yeah.
00:28:06.611 --> 00:28:09.671
Jonny: of gamification of it and
they're iterating on it and bringing
00:28:09.671 --> 00:28:12.401
in feedback and adding more like
Easter eggs and stuff like that.
00:28:12.401 --> 00:28:13.511
So yeah.
00:28:13.511 --> 00:28:14.231
Cool project.
00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:15.390
Tom: Yeah.
00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:15.810
Yeah.
00:28:17.010 --> 00:28:20.820
actually before we go into the, however,
I think your point there is also
00:28:21.030 --> 00:28:29.970
interesting on the role of design as of
the original concept versus design and
00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:31.920
influence in shaping and evolving it.
00:28:32.010 --> 00:28:35.820
Because I think the nature of
this as an experience is obviously
00:28:35.820 --> 00:28:37.290
rooted in design community.
00:28:37.290 --> 00:28:41.310
It features a lot of
internet famous designers.
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:47.700
So the material you're working with is
inherently shared amongst other people,
00:28:48.090 --> 00:28:52.110
and then there's a lot of people who have
opinions about that, the authorship of
00:28:52.110 --> 00:28:56.190
how that iterates and evolves, I dunno, an
interesting question of is that still the
00:28:56.190 --> 00:28:58.470
work of one individual who's creating it?
00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:03.120
Or is that then the sort of collective
work of a community of people who are all
00:29:03.300 --> 00:29:05.670
invested in this craft and this space?
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:06.540
I dunno.
00:29:06.570 --> 00:29:07.950
Interesting thought anyway.
00:29:07.993 --> 00:29:08.713
Jonny: Is interesting.
00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:09.540
Tom: who ha.
00:29:09.540 --> 00:29:10.080
Tell us that.
00:29:10.085 --> 00:29:10.795
Hoo-ha Jonny.
00:29:13.625 --> 00:29:16.775
Jonny: I think, the, the only reason
probably that we know about this
00:29:16.775 --> 00:29:18.035
project is because of the hoo-ha.
00:29:20.235 --> 00:29:23.865
Whenever you put anything out that
puts some people above other people,
00:29:23.865 --> 00:29:24.975
there are winners and losers.
00:29:26.205 --> 00:29:28.965
and the implication of this and the fact
that you can't just add yourself to it
00:29:29.865 --> 00:29:35.275
and you have to ask, some people would
say, beg, one of the creators to add you.
00:29:36.025 --> 00:29:41.215
I think at least reading Twitter
and, and LinkedIn and things led a
00:29:41.215 --> 00:29:47.005
lot of people to feel like it was
exclusionary and exclusive and, and,
00:29:49.195 --> 00:29:50.995
didn't, they didn't feel
good about not being on it.
00:29:50.995 --> 00:29:56.430
And, and, and I can understand that,
I think, uh, you know, but there
00:29:56.430 --> 00:30:00.570
are many, many situations in which
there's an in-crowd and an outc crowd.
00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:08.280
And it's fine to have exclusive clubs
and lists and, you know, if, if you're
00:30:08.280 --> 00:30:12.300
building a SaaS company and you wanna
be in the top 10 ways to send an email
00:30:12.330 --> 00:30:16.740
in 2026, and if you're not, then that's
sad and work harder, and maybe you
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:20.670
get there or pay the right person who
writes the list and then you get there.
00:30:21.030 --> 00:30:22.050
these things exist.
00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:27.360
for me, I was like, I'm not on it.
00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:29.530
I don't think, I wouldn't expect to be.
00:30:29.770 --> 00:30:32.290
I think it's fine for people to create
a list of their friends that are good
00:30:32.290 --> 00:30:37.090
at design and even gamified it and,
and like create sort of a, a, way for
00:30:37.090 --> 00:30:40.810
people to interact with it and, and
compare, compare their lists and things.
00:30:41.740 --> 00:30:50.530
I think where it gets a little,
more difficult is when you then
00:30:50.530 --> 00:30:51.850
claim that that's a community.
00:30:52.850 --> 00:30:56.000
I have a, I have an example of a
website that I've built that sort
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.820
of, I mean, you can't pick your
own things, but it's got a list.
00:30:59.600 --> 00:31:01.640
there's found up north.com,
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:05.900
uh, which is a list of founders,
uh, in the north of the uk.
00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:10.790
And there is a community behind it
because there's meetups and events and
00:31:10.790 --> 00:31:14.570
like a WhatsApp community where people
talk to each other and stuff like that.
00:31:15.080 --> 00:31:17.660
And the list is just a list of
the people in the community.
00:31:18.410 --> 00:31:20.210
This is basically just a list of people.
00:31:22.310 --> 00:31:25.190
I would define a community as
like bringing people together to
00:31:25.190 --> 00:31:28.890
share a conversation to help each
other out, and things like that.
00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:31.410
So is it a community?
00:31:31.410 --> 00:31:34.980
I would argue probably no, unless there
is something else happening behind the
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:38.400
scenes that is bringing that group of
people together, in which case fine.
00:31:38.710 --> 00:31:43.690
like you're allowed to, you're allowed
to have a closed door, a closed room,
00:31:44.350 --> 00:31:48.610
a group of people that are excellent
at what they do and are joined by the
00:31:48.610 --> 00:31:53.200
fact that they're both designers and
well-known and how do you manage that
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.560
and how do you build each other up and
protect each other and stuff like that.
00:31:56.560 --> 00:31:57.940
That's really feels very valuable.
00:31:58.090 --> 00:32:00.820
So I think that that was
basically the heart of it.
00:32:01.390 --> 00:32:05.710
And, so then this, this
broadcast designers one you can
00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:09.800
sign up to and create your own
avatar and, and, be on there.
00:32:10.010 --> 00:32:11.510
And that was a cool reaction to it.
00:32:11.510 --> 00:32:14.690
But that's, that was my read of it anyway.
00:32:14.810 --> 00:32:20.300
I think something that is an interesting
project and an interesting technical
00:32:20.300 --> 00:32:24.710
project and something that gets a lot
of reaction on the internet, great.
00:32:25.490 --> 00:32:31.925
If you are then claiming that you're
doing it because for the community, I
00:32:31.925 --> 00:32:34.565
find that less convincing over to you.
00:32:36.304 --> 00:32:38.674
Tom: Yeah, I think I, I agree with that.
00:32:38.794 --> 00:32:40.704
That take, makes a lot of sense.
00:32:41.244 --> 00:32:48.924
Yeah, I think it is a slight sidestep
from that, but I found it interesting.
00:32:48.924 --> 00:32:54.444
I played with it a little bit, so
this is not an exhaustive reflection.
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:58.444
but I was interested by just
how many designers on there
00:32:58.444 --> 00:33:05.014
were working or are working at
Versal or big software companies.
00:33:05.144 --> 00:33:06.854
which just, I think is just interesting.
00:33:07.784 --> 00:33:15.524
of design is through this lens of the most
successful software and tech companies.
00:33:15.834 --> 00:33:20.394
and maybe that is the right
way to evaluate design today,
00:33:20.454 --> 00:33:21.894
or sort product design today.
00:33:23.004 --> 00:33:25.614
I just thought found that
quite an interesting lens.
00:33:25.674 --> 00:33:30.564
There was fewer, I don't know
Debbie Millman, so I dunno
00:33:30.624 --> 00:33:31.524
if she was even on there.
00:33:31.524 --> 00:33:35.364
She might be on there, but there
was fewer people who of transcended
00:33:36.084 --> 00:33:41.404
specific silos of design and, spent
a lot of time in these broader, or
00:33:41.404 --> 00:33:44.404
varied flavours of design roles.
00:33:44.734 --> 00:33:47.974
And it was very much people
who were deep in tech.
00:33:48.064 --> 00:33:52.774
And that's not a critique of people
deep in tech, but more just if you're
00:33:52.774 --> 00:33:57.094
trying to summarise a design, a
community of people in a discipline,
00:33:57.184 --> 00:34:03.934
it's interesting that discipline is
constrained to this one corner of a craft.
00:34:04.934 --> 00:34:06.374
Jonny: Yeah, I agree with you.
00:34:06.374 --> 00:34:08.894
I, I mean, I think it's broadly a
reflection of the designers that
00:34:08.894 --> 00:34:18.234
are extremely online on Twitter,
and, a lot of those I would imagine
00:34:18.324 --> 00:34:23.004
are, Work for companies where it's
encouraged that they're, they see
00:34:23.004 --> 00:34:26.934
it as a real value, a piece of piece
of value to, to have their staff
00:34:27.414 --> 00:34:30.534
installing the virtues of the business
and being famous in their own right.
00:34:30.594 --> 00:34:32.664
You know, it's a talent magnet,
all of that kind of stuff.
00:34:33.204 --> 00:34:36.804
and, uh, and great free, free
marketing for, for the business.
00:34:37.884 --> 00:34:41.604
and where, and there are a lot of
businesses that can't or don't want
00:34:41.604 --> 00:34:47.514
to, or haven't thought to do that, or,
and, it's cyclical in the sense that
00:34:47.514 --> 00:34:51.504
if I want to be big on the internet
or like, that is a part of a big part
00:34:51.504 --> 00:34:55.944
of my persona, a big part of what I
want to do is be well known, then I'll
00:34:55.944 --> 00:34:57.564
join a company where that's supported.
00:34:58.134 --> 00:35:01.914
Uh, and, and that's cool because
working for a Google company,
00:35:02.404 --> 00:35:05.354
accelerates my own, reach.
00:35:05.864 --> 00:35:09.374
That sounds like cynical, but I think
it's actually okay to want to be, you
00:35:09.374 --> 00:35:12.104
know, we're running a podcast, we hope
people, more people listen over time.
00:35:12.614 --> 00:35:17.604
there'll be non-financial benefits
to us of running this, which is, you
00:35:17.604 --> 00:35:21.324
know, network and meeting interesting
people and et cetera, et cetera.
00:35:21.354 --> 00:35:27.654
So, you know, we're not, we're not
exactly, uh, not in that group or hoping
00:35:27.654 --> 00:35:32.124
to be in that group, but, but I, I
almost feel like if it's a comm, if it's
00:35:32.124 --> 00:35:39.114
anything, it's defined by this subset
of design, design, engineery type people
00:35:39.114 --> 00:35:42.204
working for really forward thinking.
00:35:42.234 --> 00:35:48.004
US tech companies that are,
growing like weeds and have been
00:35:48.004 --> 00:35:51.664
thinking about developer advocacy
and things for a very long time.
00:35:52.744 --> 00:35:53.014
Tom: Yeah.
00:35:54.124 --> 00:35:55.984
Yeah, that's very true.
00:35:56.764 --> 00:36:03.994
it's it makes me think of the world
of, I dunno, I feel like there's, there
00:36:03.994 --> 00:36:09.934
was a, while we went through where
companies didn't want people to be as
00:36:09.934 --> 00:36:15.484
public because then they would be more
likely to be poached by other companies.
00:36:15.870 --> 00:36:16.170
Jonny: Yeah.
00:36:16.504 --> 00:36:18.784
Tom: I dunno if that's a, there's
a sea change around that now
00:36:18.784 --> 00:36:21.634
where it's shifted or if, it's
the same as it's always, has been.
00:36:21.634 --> 00:36:26.734
And if you have a big audience at
one of these companies, then you
00:36:26.734 --> 00:36:29.164
are likely the target to be poached.
00:36:29.464 --> 00:36:30.499
it works both ways.
00:36:31.499 --> 00:36:32.069
Jonny: Yeah.
00:36:32.819 --> 00:36:34.589
Or maybe they're just like, you know what?
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:36.959
They'll leave if they want to
anyway, so you might as well
00:36:36.959 --> 00:36:40.889
just get, get them talking about
us for as long as we have them.
00:36:41.399 --> 00:36:41.909
I dunno.
00:36:43.829 --> 00:36:48.299
think also, I, also wonder if you are
known as the guy that works at that
00:36:48.299 --> 00:36:52.229
company, I think there's quite a few
of the people I'm thinking of where
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.159
you are quite tied to the business
and like it might be quite sticky
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.039
to, I wanna stay there because they
support me, and what if the next thing
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.289
isn't, they're not as supportive.
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.009
Sort of golden handcuffs of we have
a symbiotic relationship, me and
00:37:05.579 --> 00:37:12.414
my workplace where they let me in
work time, tweet a lot or something.
00:37:13.114 --> 00:37:13.924
Tom: Yeah, totally.
00:37:14.924 --> 00:37:15.374
cool.
00:37:15.794 --> 00:37:20.594
I think this, just moving on a little
bit from this, I think there is of an
00:37:20.594 --> 00:37:27.164
interesting question that this ties
to, or connects into, is the idea that
00:37:28.034 --> 00:37:35.744
design output, design craft is the most
visible, tangible, obvious example of your
00:37:35.744 --> 00:37:43.964
contribution as a designer, I think that
is less legible or visible for anyone who
00:37:43.964 --> 00:37:50.394
is in a leadership role, people management
role, operations role, or potentially just
00:37:50.399 --> 00:37:55.734
a, a design role that is less publicly
visible in the nature of your work.
00:37:57.624 --> 00:38:02.244
I dunno what to really make of this,
but I, was, had been thinking about
00:38:02.244 --> 00:38:07.604
this theme recently and listened
to the, podcast interview with Noam
00:38:07.964 --> 00:38:16.424
Siegel, who, spoke to who, who led or
ran the AI in design or AI in product
00:38:16.514 --> 00:38:18.854
survey, I guess it was annual survey.
00:38:19.274 --> 00:38:24.884
And in this episode, he shares
back a bunch of his research
00:38:24.914 --> 00:38:28.574
insights and themes synthesising
across the survey respondents.
00:38:30.374 --> 00:38:35.494
I think there's, definitely a, a very
strong theme coming through that the, from
00:38:35.494 --> 00:38:41.614
him that it's people who are the ones who
both exci excited, exhausted, hopeful,
00:38:41.614 --> 00:38:43.384
and scared often at the same time.
00:38:43.864 --> 00:38:47.854
And I think if you're able to channel
that energy into making something
00:38:47.854 --> 00:38:53.164
visible that proves your value to the
world or to a company, would like to
00:38:53.164 --> 00:38:57.844
think that's probably a, you have a
bit more agency in this world, but I
00:38:57.844 --> 00:39:02.404
think if your value is less legible,
I guess it raises the question of
00:39:03.274 --> 00:39:06.784
you still able to add or communicate
the same value in the same way?
00:39:06.784 --> 00:39:08.284
Is this just a phase we're going through?
00:39:08.284 --> 00:39:15.664
And then after that visibility and
legibility wears off a little bit, the
00:39:15.934 --> 00:39:21.124
structures or systems or surroundings that
enable that will become more important
00:39:21.184 --> 00:39:23.314
or will they never be more important?
00:39:23.314 --> 00:39:28.414
And actually the only thing that is
important right now is an output that
00:39:28.414 --> 00:39:35.764
is directly visible and clearly to the
bottom line of a business, very directly.
00:39:36.964 --> 00:39:37.954
I don't know, but I
00:39:38.156 --> 00:39:38.516
Jonny: Yeah.
00:39:38.524 --> 00:39:42.094
Tom: definitely these interesting
themes in, that sort of the
00:39:42.094 --> 00:39:46.864
edges around the craft that I
think are interesting questions.
00:39:48.588 --> 00:39:51.558
Jonny: Do you think that this is just
a continuation of, I feel like that's,
00:39:52.278 --> 00:39:56.898
it's always been true that if you
end up being a designer at a company
00:39:56.898 --> 00:40:04.368
where the product looks shit like,
the UI is old, it's some ratty old,
00:40:04.968 --> 00:40:06.648
legacy system that you're working on.
00:40:06.648 --> 00:40:08.838
And it's really important and
it's used by millions of people
00:40:08.838 --> 00:40:11.658
or hundreds of thousands of
people and very important people.
00:40:11.658 --> 00:40:18.288
But it's not gonna be a priority
to make it look cool anytime soon.
00:40:18.678 --> 00:40:21.228
And the most important work is
elsewhere and you're stuck with it.
00:40:21.708 --> 00:40:29.328
And so therefore your portfolio from a
visual point of view is underwhelming,
00:40:31.188 --> 00:40:32.988
even though the work you're doing is good.
00:40:33.858 --> 00:40:37.128
And that's where you end up with
people with like portfolios full
00:40:37.128 --> 00:40:42.438
of people pointing at post-it notes
maybe, or, there's a lot of that in
00:40:43.188 --> 00:40:47.778
other bad portfolios, but you get
stuck in a situation where like your
00:40:47.778 --> 00:40:51.738
work doesn't stand for itself and
you have to explain it so much that
00:40:51.978 --> 00:40:53.628
it's just different kind of work.
00:40:54.948 --> 00:40:57.168
I feel like leadership work is
probably similar in that you're
00:40:57.168 --> 00:41:00.468
like, my team did this and look
at all these beautiful things that
00:41:00.468 --> 00:41:02.148
I didn't actually design myself.
00:41:02.148 --> 00:41:07.968
I just, helped everyone to do
it and we moved these metrics.
00:41:08.278 --> 00:41:08.788
but that's,
00:41:10.918 --> 00:41:13.168
you can make the numbers really
big in your portfolio, but it's
00:41:13.168 --> 00:41:16.138
not like a beautiful, u are.
00:41:16.168 --> 00:41:18.898
So, you get, get stuck
in that trap as well.
00:41:18.898 --> 00:41:20.938
And I feel like that's always been true.
00:41:21.562 --> 00:41:21.802
Tom: Sure.
00:41:22.012 --> 00:41:22.282
Yeah.
00:41:23.282 --> 00:41:29.702
Jonny: But you also found this
really good, LinkedIn post from
00:41:29.702 --> 00:41:36.872
gge, the pragmatic engineer with
engineering leadership trends.
00:41:38.702 --> 00:41:39.422
please dig into it.
00:41:39.452 --> 00:41:42.632
'cause like you found this and
I read it and was like, ah,
00:41:42.692 --> 00:41:43.952
this is true of design as well.
00:41:43.952 --> 00:41:46.742
But yeah, give us, the, tail.
00:41:47.707 --> 00:41:54.637
Tom: Yeah, we will, share this in the
show notes, but gge, talked about, I'm
00:41:54.637 --> 00:41:58.567
gonna, I'll read a few quotes, but the
general gist is he's been speaking with,
00:41:59.797 --> 00:42:06.097
leaders like CTOs, heads of engineering at
lots of startups and mid-size companies,
00:42:06.967 --> 00:42:12.607
and a lot of them are burning out or
leaving or just struggling in their roles.
00:42:12.967 --> 00:42:18.517
And he wrote this post, which summarises
a few of the reasons, and I think
00:42:18.637 --> 00:42:21.997
there were three in there that I think
were really particularly interesting.
00:42:22.357 --> 00:42:24.907
I'm just gonna read out for
verbatim what he put in his post.
00:42:26.197 --> 00:42:27.907
a few here are the few reasons.
00:42:27.997 --> 00:42:32.167
Number one, realising the role
that they will hide is just a shit
00:42:32.167 --> 00:42:34.087
one to do right now thanks to ai.
00:42:34.117 --> 00:42:35.827
Often unrealistic expectations.
00:42:36.277 --> 00:42:38.437
Number two, realise the company
they joined doesn't have a future
00:42:38.437 --> 00:42:40.987
strategy to come out winning with ai.
00:42:41.437 --> 00:42:44.227
Number three, realise that they will
not get the AI native experience.
00:42:44.227 --> 00:42:47.737
They know they need to get to thrive
long term and the setup won't allow 'em
00:42:47.737 --> 00:42:50.077
to get it, so it will be career suicide.
00:42:50.917 --> 00:42:56.587
and so I think there's this squeeze
coming from top down pressure to do
00:42:57.037 --> 00:42:59.347
more faster with less at higher quality.
00:43:00.637 --> 00:43:03.367
but then there's this sort of industry,
00:43:05.737 --> 00:43:08.977
and I think that's the reason why it's
a really difficult role right now.
00:43:10.147 --> 00:43:15.037
But then I think there is this sort of
macro business context of businesses
00:43:15.037 --> 00:43:18.547
are just much better set up to succeed
in this current moment than others.
00:43:19.567 --> 00:43:24.667
to mention the challenges that come
up come with AI transformation.
00:43:24.667 --> 00:43:29.617
So even if you can move your whole
organisation forward to this AI native
00:43:29.617 --> 00:43:33.937
future, what does that mean for the
viability of your business or the
00:43:34.114 --> 00:43:34.444
Jonny: Yeah.
00:43:34.477 --> 00:43:34.747
Tom: in?
00:43:35.077 --> 00:43:39.067
And I think that does raise a lot of new
questions that weren't even there before.
00:43:39.367 --> 00:43:44.467
So yeah, I think it's a fascinating post
and something I've been thinking myself
00:43:44.467 --> 00:43:47.647
from conversations I've been having with
various design leaders over the last
00:43:47.707 --> 00:43:52.477
year or two since going independent and
speaking with various people in various
00:43:52.477 --> 00:43:56.527
companies and seeing go gay's post felt
00:43:58.597 --> 00:44:02.017
oh yeah, like this has been,
surprised almost that this is new
00:44:02.047 --> 00:44:04.657
because I feel like this has been
the case for the last year or two.
00:44:04.937 --> 00:44:08.147
I'm less attached to engineering
leadership, but I feel like
00:44:08.147 --> 00:44:11.567
that trend's been happening in
design, but maybe it hasn't.
00:44:11.567 --> 00:44:14.717
Maybe I'm just, seeing it, seeing
the wave coming on the horizon
00:44:14.717 --> 00:44:16.157
and it's not actually here yet.
00:44:17.297 --> 00:44:18.797
but I'm curious what your take is, Jonny.
00:44:18.797 --> 00:44:22.727
'cause I think when I shared this with
you yesterday, you mentioned how maybe
00:44:22.727 --> 00:44:27.287
this is a, a more Silicon Valley trend,
that is starting now and will catch
00:44:27.287 --> 00:44:29.147
up to design a year or two from now.
00:44:29.477 --> 00:44:29.807
Jonny: Yeah.
00:44:29.815 --> 00:44:30.715
Tom: trend already here?
00:44:30.715 --> 00:44:33.295
Are people already experiencing
this or is it's come?
00:44:33.385 --> 00:44:34.075
What's your thought?
00:44:35.237 --> 00:44:41.387
Jonny: I do think engineering teams
were put under this pressure a year ago,
00:44:43.929 --> 00:44:44.139
Tom: a hundred
00:44:44.389 --> 00:44:49.519
Jonny: Yeah, Al almost a year
ago it was, when was it, Opus
00:44:50.389 --> 00:44:51.979
four came out or something.
00:44:51.979 --> 00:44:56.749
So towards the end of summer and
then just before Christmas 2025 when
00:44:56.749 --> 00:45:00.649
the coding models got really good,
it's just ratcheted up the pressure
00:45:00.649 --> 00:45:07.519
on the engineering org to get AI
pilled or the engineering community.
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:10.909
And I suppose in that situation,
like if you're an engineering leader
00:45:10.909 --> 00:45:14.449
and you're stuck in an organisation
that isn't, doesn't believe in that,
00:45:15.859 --> 00:45:20.924
then it can feel, I, would imagine
really stressful to feel like you are.
00:45:21.924 --> 00:45:25.014
Falling behind through no fault of your
own, but just because you're not given the
00:45:25.014 --> 00:45:27.114
opportunities to, to upskill in this way.
00:45:27.414 --> 00:45:32.244
And meanwhile, all of these
other people on the internet are
00:45:32.964 --> 00:45:36.804
racing ahead and running a agent
fleets and et cetera, et cetera.
00:45:37.164 --> 00:45:41.994
and I think that design then had the
start of that moment, sort of maybe Claude
00:45:41.994 --> 00:45:43.884
desired actually like February time.
00:45:45.324 --> 00:45:49.374
and suddenly everyone going, well,
are you even a designer if you're
00:45:49.374 --> 00:45:52.884
not, designing with AI constantly.
00:45:56.004 --> 00:45:59.994
and again, if you're in a design
organisation where you are drawing
00:45:59.994 --> 00:46:02.994
rectangles in Figma or, or whatever it
is that you're doing, and you're looking
00:46:02.994 --> 00:46:10.884
over at the people that are running at it
with, with their agents, again, like, the
00:46:10.884 --> 00:46:15.864
longer I stay here, the further behind I
fall back, I can imagine being a feeling.
00:46:16.044 --> 00:46:19.224
Then there'll probably be those
people that are like, the, like
00:46:19.224 --> 00:46:22.494
block has gone all in and a
bunch of people are like, Nope.
00:46:23.424 --> 00:46:24.864
I just, I I don't wanna do this at all.
00:46:24.864 --> 00:46:27.399
I wanna work for a more normal
company that has a, a le a
00:46:27.404 --> 00:46:28.494
more level head about this.
00:46:28.494 --> 00:46:33.354
And might, still lean in, but over
the course of a couple of years rather
00:46:33.354 --> 00:46:38.634
than Big Bang or may actually have a
culture, which is no AI at all, which
00:46:38.634 --> 00:46:41.004
I think increasingly will be difficult.
00:46:41.304 --> 00:46:46.944
But, yeah, but it seems like it's sort
of split, it does feel like it sort of
00:46:46.944 --> 00:46:53.694
split people, and companies in these
sort of two directions potentially.
00:46:54.054 --> 00:46:57.174
I dunno if this is a very tortured
analogy, but Brexit, I'm just
00:46:57.174 --> 00:46:58.794
gonna relate it to Brexit.
00:46:59.334 --> 00:47:03.684
because the, the, the, the
Brexit vote sort of cut through
00:47:03.684 --> 00:47:04.914
party lines effectively.
00:47:04.914 --> 00:47:07.344
There were, you know, people that
would call themselves on the left
00:47:07.344 --> 00:47:10.434
and call themselves on the right that
voted for and against Brexit, against,
00:47:11.574 --> 00:47:13.704
against their normal voting habit.
00:47:14.814 --> 00:47:19.434
And I do wonder if like this extraordinary
technology coming in from the left
00:47:19.434 --> 00:47:24.604
field suddenly, divides engineering
cultures and now design cultures and
00:47:24.604 --> 00:47:29.764
probably cultures in lots of other parts
of a business, are you for or against?
00:47:29.764 --> 00:47:32.164
This thing feels very binary.
00:47:32.254 --> 00:47:37.984
Either you want to give over to
the agent overlords tomorrow, or
00:47:38.434 --> 00:47:39.604
you never want to do it at all.
00:47:40.684 --> 00:47:44.104
And the thrash that comes out of that,
if you're a leader and trying to work
00:47:44.104 --> 00:47:47.854
out how to navigate all of this and work
out what the right answer's gonna be.
00:47:48.484 --> 00:47:50.494
And this article says, you
know, they're quitting.
00:47:50.734 --> 00:47:57.214
They're basically just like, they're,
leaving and taking breaks from work
00:47:58.024 --> 00:48:03.184
because it seems like the only thing
to do now because you can't, you don't
00:48:03.184 --> 00:48:07.594
wanna stay where you are and you,
it is hard to get a job in a real ai
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:11.434
pilled company without much evidence
that you can do that because you, your
00:48:11.434 --> 00:48:13.294
previous company didn't allow you to.
00:48:13.834 --> 00:48:14.764
So therefore, what do you do?
00:48:14.764 --> 00:48:17.204
And you end up, stuck in the middle.
00:48:18.674 --> 00:48:25.244
So, yeah, I, uh, I, think in a way we,
you know, we're like, doing something
00:48:25.244 --> 00:48:29.324
in between, you know, we're working
with companies that are trying to work
00:48:29.324 --> 00:48:31.574
this out and seeing it in other people.
00:48:31.574 --> 00:48:35.174
I think we've seen it in, in, with,
clients that we've worked with.
00:48:35.954 --> 00:48:38.984
But I can also definitely feel it myself,
like, what's the right answer here?
00:48:38.984 --> 00:48:43.214
Do I go all in and go and
work for an AI pill company?
00:48:43.844 --> 00:48:49.754
Yeah, so I think leadership
is in a hard place probably.
00:48:50.442 --> 00:48:50.862
Tom: Yeah.
00:48:50.862 --> 00:48:55.212
And I, feel like, just to build slightly
on what you just said there, I think
00:48:55.632 --> 00:49:02.202
I have spoken with, and I could, I
imagine this being true of who are very
00:49:02.202 --> 00:49:07.512
excited about what AI makes possible and
can to are totally bought into setting
00:49:07.512 --> 00:49:12.582
their organisations up around AI the
near future or working toward that.
00:49:13.032 --> 00:49:17.532
But I think that doesn't mean it's gonna
be a smooth transition to get there.
00:49:18.432 --> 00:49:22.152
gonna be a lot of, not just about
the transformation aspect of it,
00:49:22.152 --> 00:49:28.422
but the culture change, the, sort
of people and hiring process, the
00:49:28.602 --> 00:49:31.002
operational and logistical workflows.
00:49:31.002 --> 00:49:39.072
There's so many pieces to figure out a
leader that I think there's a lot of,
00:49:39.072 --> 00:49:40.212
baggage that comes along with that.
00:49:40.212 --> 00:49:44.082
So I almost feel like it's distinct from
whether you personally are interested or
00:49:44.082 --> 00:49:50.382
not interested in ai, but more about how
does this company succeed a year from
00:49:50.382 --> 00:49:54.612
now based on what my function is capable
of doing within this organisation to
00:49:54.612 --> 00:49:57.342
make sure it is set up to be successful.
00:49:57.372 --> 00:50:02.312
And that is a lot of conditionals,
that will orient around an outcome.
00:50:02.342 --> 00:50:05.192
And that outcome might even
be questionable based on the
00:50:05.192 --> 00:50:10.352
business you're in and what, how
capable it is as a standalone
00:50:13.922 --> 00:50:18.872
business, I, I feel like Finn and
Intercom is probably the success story
00:50:18.872 --> 00:50:22.592
of how of this working, but I imagine
when they were starting down the road
00:50:22.592 --> 00:50:25.982
of making that, those investments in AI
and shifting the culture around that,
00:50:26.732 --> 00:50:29.702
I imagine there were some early days
where there was a lot of existential
00:50:29.702 --> 00:50:34.742
questions of is this, really like
we're making some radical investments.
00:50:34.742 --> 00:50:35.852
Is this really gonna pay off?
00:50:36.192 --> 00:50:36.492
Jonny: Yeah.
00:50:36.512 --> 00:50:38.762
Tom: clearly it is for them, at
least from the outside, it seems like
00:50:38.762 --> 00:50:40.112
it's paying off very well for them.
00:50:40.544 --> 00:50:40.844
Jonny: Yeah.
00:50:41.282 --> 00:50:48.872
Tom: that's requires a very strong
leadership of what the future looks
00:50:48.872 --> 00:50:50.432
like and really committing to that.
00:50:50.432 --> 00:50:53.762
And I feel like a lot of companies,
I could imagine not having the,
00:50:53.762 --> 00:50:54.752
guts to go through with that.
00:50:56.128 --> 00:50:56.668
Jonny: For sure.
00:50:56.908 --> 00:50:57.238
Yeah.
00:50:57.508 --> 00:50:59.533
Or not wanting the short term pain.
00:51:00.778 --> 00:51:01.108
Tom: Yeah.
00:51:02.048 --> 00:51:07.358
Jonny: Or, it's incredibly de
decisive what Intercom did.
00:51:07.418 --> 00:51:11.858
And I think in a vertical that was a
really obvious AI disruptor vertical.
00:51:13.628 --> 00:51:16.508
but kudos amazing, that they
did it and did it so early.
00:51:16.838 --> 00:51:18.668
And there are companies
even now that won't do that.
00:51:18.998 --> 00:51:20.588
and not probably lots of
companies that, whereas it's
00:51:20.618 --> 00:51:21.548
not the right decision as well.
00:51:22.088 --> 00:51:22.328
But,
00:51:22.778 --> 00:51:23.228
Tom: Yeah.
00:51:23.318 --> 00:51:23.798
Yeah.
00:51:24.403 --> 00:51:26.863
Jonny: in the meantime, if you
are in one of these organisations
00:51:27.493 --> 00:51:33.883
and you get the exciting news, all
hands invite, what's this gonna be?
00:51:34.783 --> 00:51:37.468
yeah, I can imagine the, the
fear, what's coming down the pipe.
00:51:39.104 --> 00:51:39.884
Tom: Yeah, definitely.
00:51:39.914 --> 00:51:42.734
Or the infamous Slack message.
00:51:42.884 --> 00:51:43.784
Do you have a minute?
00:51:45.451 --> 00:51:45.691
Jonny: Yeah.
00:51:47.491 --> 00:51:47.791
yeah.
00:51:47.834 --> 00:51:48.074
Tom: we'll
00:51:48.151 --> 00:51:49.711
Jonny: Never send one of those people.
00:51:49.741 --> 00:51:50.701
Never send one of those.
00:51:51.104 --> 00:51:51.434
Tom: yeah.
00:51:53.414 --> 00:51:54.794
anyway, 55 minutes.
00:51:54.794 --> 00:51:55.904
We've been recording for a while.
00:51:56.024 --> 00:51:56.834
Should we wrap this up,
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:57.689
Jonny: Let's wrap it up.
00:51:58.454 --> 00:52:03.914
Tom: we have a few, lighter notes to,
finish with around our AI experiments.
00:52:03.914 --> 00:52:06.104
I think we've shared a lot about
what we've been reflecting on
00:52:06.104 --> 00:52:10.244
recently, even for a time where
we have been disconnected from the
00:52:10.244 --> 00:52:12.544
news cycle, which feels, feels good.
00:52:12.544 --> 00:52:15.814
I surprised you have as much to talk about
as we did it, actually, but Very good.
00:52:16.174 --> 00:52:17.674
so a, a couple of things.
00:52:17.734 --> 00:52:19.804
I've been AI experimenting with recently.
00:52:20.704 --> 00:52:26.964
So I built, I've been building some agent
skills and I posted about that this week.
00:52:27.024 --> 00:52:30.264
So we're preparing to run our build
workshop, which is next Thursday.
00:52:31.074 --> 00:52:33.444
still a few spots left, so if you're
listening to this, an interesting
00:52:33.714 --> 00:52:37.614
coming along and building your
own design tool, please do that
00:52:37.644 --> 00:52:39.024
near future work slash build.
00:52:39.834 --> 00:52:43.614
but part of that, part of that
process, we are sending out a
00:52:43.614 --> 00:52:48.174
Claude or an agent skill pack, which
is initially focused on Claude.
00:52:49.074 --> 00:52:53.514
And it basically helps distil or
has distilled a workshop process
00:52:53.514 --> 00:52:56.064
that Jonny and I went through 18
months ago now when we were first
00:52:56.064 --> 00:52:58.494
starting to run AI Builder Hack weeks.
00:52:59.454 --> 00:53:03.204
and help people reflect on how they
work, where they get their energy,
00:53:03.204 --> 00:53:08.214
what's draining for them, and then
identify opportunities for ways
00:53:08.244 --> 00:53:12.234
AI can help in their work, and
then generate a bunch of ideas.
00:53:12.264 --> 00:53:17.604
And we basically adapted that into
something that you talk through with ai,
00:53:17.604 --> 00:53:22.494
what your week looks like, what your,
what you enjoy spending time doing.
00:53:22.494 --> 00:53:25.194
And then it helps generate a list
of potential tools, design tools
00:53:25.194 --> 00:53:26.484
you could build in half a day.
00:53:26.944 --> 00:53:28.714
and the goal of that is really
just to give people a jumping off
00:53:28.714 --> 00:53:32.344
point to join the workshop next
week with, a starting point with
00:53:32.344 --> 00:53:33.544
a list of tools they could build.
00:53:33.884 --> 00:53:39.344
it's quite handy actually as well
that you can, the skill is set up
00:53:39.374 --> 00:53:43.004
to scope technical ideas down to
what is feasible within that time.
00:53:43.004 --> 00:53:46.994
So it will some warning signs up
if you're getting too ambitious
00:53:46.994 --> 00:53:50.594
with the technical scope or,
thing that you might be imagining.
00:53:50.664 --> 00:53:53.634
but hopefully that can also help people
push toward more ambitious ideas.
00:53:53.874 --> 00:53:54.384
and maybe
00:53:54.415 --> 00:53:54.475
Jonny: Go.
00:53:54.594 --> 00:53:58.404
Tom: if you're not super comfortable with
building with AI yet, it can help have
00:53:58.434 --> 00:54:02.934
some more, here's, a MVP version of what
you are thinking about, and here's the
00:54:02.934 --> 00:54:04.734
stretch goal if you have the time for it.
00:54:06.144 --> 00:54:06.864
so I've been building that.
00:54:06.924 --> 00:54:08.364
It's, fun.
00:54:08.604 --> 00:54:13.734
And then I also, the other thing I've
been building this week was a 3D chess
00:54:13.734 --> 00:54:20.004
game for my 5-year-old son who is, has no
interest or, awareness of chess at all.
00:54:20.334 --> 00:54:20.814
but,
00:54:22.884 --> 00:54:27.294
I think chess, I played chess when I
was a kid and I felt like there was some
00:54:27.294 --> 00:54:29.334
things very rational and logical about it.
00:54:29.364 --> 00:54:30.864
And I think my five year-old is.
00:54:31.118 --> 00:54:33.158
Has a similar, brain.
00:54:33.428 --> 00:54:37.658
but there's this quite a learning
journey and quite a, steep learning
00:54:37.658 --> 00:54:39.778
journey, in learning how to play.
00:54:40.018 --> 00:54:44.848
So I thought I would play around with
these, using, actually use Opus five.
00:54:45.208 --> 00:54:46.318
I didn't use Fable for this.
00:54:46.318 --> 00:54:49.928
Maybe I should have, of using,
three Js to build like this 3D
00:54:49.928 --> 00:54:54.098
world that your thing can, exist in.
00:54:54.098 --> 00:54:58.358
I think Andre Pathy posted something
he built recently about giving, feeding
00:54:58.358 --> 00:55:02.168
in the first paragraph of Lord of the
Rings, and it built a world around that.
00:55:02.348 --> 00:55:02.678
So it was
00:55:02.701 --> 00:55:03.091
Jonny: Amazing.
00:55:03.338 --> 00:55:07.008
Tom: to that, but applied to building
a 3D chess game for, people who were
00:55:07.008 --> 00:55:08.208
figuring it out for the first time.
00:55:08.268 --> 00:55:09.468
And, it was super fun.
00:55:09.498 --> 00:55:12.798
There is like a, there's a reef
quest, which is this underwater
00:55:12.798 --> 00:55:16.738
world where you play with these sea
creatures, basic chess moves, and then
00:55:16.738 --> 00:55:20.668
there's a jungle and then a forest
that you can play it with as well.
00:55:20.878 --> 00:55:23.188
And it has the names written,
engraved in the board.
00:55:23.188 --> 00:55:28.698
And it's, I'd say the visual language is,
it's not backyard designers club level.
00:55:28.938 --> 00:55:30.678
It's far more basic than that.
00:55:30.918 --> 00:55:36.048
But, but it's, impressive what, you
can do with Opus five overnight.
00:55:36.168 --> 00:55:37.698
Like it's, on its own.
00:55:38.051 --> 00:55:41.981
Jonny: ship and iterate Tom, and let's,
I wanna be one of the chess pieces.
00:55:42.678 --> 00:55:43.308
Tom: Oh yeah.
00:55:43.338 --> 00:55:43.458
Yeah.
00:55:43.458 --> 00:55:45.228
Maybe we can, work to that.
00:55:45.647 --> 00:55:47.177
Jonny: Chess ass designers or, yeah.
00:55:48.077 --> 00:55:48.857
that sounds awesome.
00:55:48.857 --> 00:55:52.157
You need to put that on the internet
for me and for everyone listening.
00:55:52.567 --> 00:55:52.837
and
00:55:52.849 --> 00:55:52.969
Tom: will.
00:55:52.969 --> 00:55:53.744
Maybe I'll throw it up
00:55:53.767 --> 00:55:56.542
Jonny: of course, a after your son
has, road tested it a little bit.
00:55:57.542 --> 00:55:58.052
Tom: How about you, Jonny?
00:55:58.052 --> 00:56:00.242
Have you done any, AI
building experiments recently?
00:56:01.338 --> 00:56:06.858
Jonny: So I in fact, have barely opened my
laptop over the last two or three weeks.
00:56:07.728 --> 00:56:12.828
So much so that I opened up my
laptop today and had to re-log into
00:56:12.828 --> 00:56:15.258
Claude, which is the first time
I've had to do that in a long time.
00:56:15.978 --> 00:56:21.258
yeah, no, I'm truly blowing dust off
my building skills at the moment.
00:56:21.438 --> 00:56:24.558
That said, uda, which I've
talked about on the pod before,
00:56:25.908 --> 00:56:27.168
still pretty excited about it.
00:56:27.168 --> 00:56:33.088
And Yc, y Combinator, big us, accelerator
put out their call for startups last
00:56:33.088 --> 00:56:37.918
week, and one of the startup, one of the
sort of categories that they mentioned,
00:56:38.968 --> 00:56:41.788
pretty much described UDA conceptually.
00:56:41.788 --> 00:56:46.168
So, I don't know how much validation that
really is, but excited to keep pushing
00:56:46.168 --> 00:56:48.148
on it and seeing, seeing what it can do.
00:56:49.348 --> 00:56:52.378
uda by the way, if you haven't
listened to previous episodes, is
00:56:52.378 --> 00:57:00.178
a way to host internal web widgets,
sites, apps, prototypes, whatever it
00:57:00.178 --> 00:57:04.678
is you want to inside your company
without, uh, leaking them out.
00:57:05.098 --> 00:57:06.448
And you can do all that through an agent.
00:57:07.348 --> 00:57:08.188
It needs users.
00:57:08.188 --> 00:57:10.318
So, you know, ood run
if you wanna sign up,
00:57:12.748 --> 00:57:13.648
promote my stuff.
00:57:13.888 --> 00:57:19.978
but yes, basically, and, and in fact, I
don't anticipate writing a lot of code
00:57:20.278 --> 00:57:21.988
for the next two or three weeks either.
00:57:22.278 --> 00:57:27.188
other than in our workshop next week,
hoping to, I may not write any, but
00:57:27.188 --> 00:57:31.058
I'll be, I'll be involved in coding
projects, which I'm really excited about.
00:57:31.058 --> 00:57:35.478
So, yeah, I can't wait to see the
next batch of design tools that
00:57:35.478 --> 00:57:39.348
get created as we, as we guide
people through this process.
00:57:40.488 --> 00:57:43.878
there's some pretty cool design tools out
there at the moment that I was playing
00:57:43.878 --> 00:57:49.158
with one today, which I was like, oh, this
is, people are building awesome stuff.
00:57:49.158 --> 00:57:51.018
So hopefully see some of that next week.
00:57:52.404 --> 00:57:52.614
Tom: To go.
00:57:53.484 --> 00:57:53.724
wait.
00:57:54.228 --> 00:57:57.048
Jonny: And yes, 1, 1, 1 final plug for it.
00:57:58.188 --> 00:58:02.658
as Tom mentioned, we'd love for you
to join near Future work slash build.
00:58:03.228 --> 00:58:05.718
and if you wanna bring your
team, we can offer a discount.
00:58:05.718 --> 00:58:10.488
So find us on our socials or
email us, or something like that.
00:58:10.938 --> 00:58:13.818
And, we'll hook you up and yeah.
00:58:13.818 --> 00:58:14.958
What else have we got coming up?
00:58:14.958 --> 00:58:16.638
Do we need to shout out anything?
00:58:17.638 --> 00:58:23.728
Tom: I don't think the, I'm running,
mostly working a free, evening AI and
00:58:23.728 --> 00:58:25.468
design event on Wednesday evening.
00:58:26.548 --> 00:58:29.818
very close to this workshop that
we're running on Thursday morning.
00:58:30.508 --> 00:58:33.238
but they are actually two
separate things, but the one on
00:58:33.238 --> 00:58:34.468
Wednesday is gonna be super fun.
00:58:34.538 --> 00:58:38.348
we're, we have Christine Road from
the browser company coming in to talk
00:58:38.348 --> 00:58:47.588
about how has made the daily summary
experience in the browser look and
00:58:48.218 --> 00:58:49.418
AI generated slop.
00:58:49.418 --> 00:58:51.488
So maybe that comes full circle
to the start of our episode.
00:58:52.325 --> 00:58:52.955
Jonny: Feel like, it does.
00:58:53.528 --> 00:58:55.178
Tom: super impressed with the work.
00:58:55.208 --> 00:59:01.278
She shared it in, I shared it over her,
shoulder a few months ago and, loved the
00:59:01.278 --> 00:59:04.818
story that she had around it as well of
being on holiday and then coming back
00:59:04.818 --> 00:59:09.318
and then seeing the progress without
design and bringing design in and just
00:59:09.318 --> 00:59:11.028
how much impact she was able to have.
00:59:12.498 --> 00:59:13.248
very good work.
00:59:13.308 --> 00:59:16.308
Excited to see that on Wednesday,
but Thursday is the thing
00:59:16.308 --> 00:59:17.268
we're all gearing up for.
00:59:17.298 --> 00:59:21.828
That is the design tools,
grand building experience.
00:59:22.078 --> 00:59:22.828
and I'm excited for it.
00:59:22.888 --> 00:59:23.338
Can't wait.
00:59:23.973 --> 00:59:24.183
Jonny: Yep.
00:59:24.603 --> 00:59:24.873
Yep.
00:59:25.498 --> 00:59:27.778
Tom: hopefully we can get some people
to agree to share some of their tools
00:59:27.808 --> 00:59:31.168
online and we can do a follow up episode
where we talk through some of them.
00:59:32.037 --> 00:59:35.727
Jonny: And then we're doing a live one
of those in Brighton on in September.
00:59:36.657 --> 00:59:37.947
And we have another,
00:59:40.587 --> 00:59:42.897
couple of things going on that probably
can't talk about quite yet, but
00:59:43.107 --> 00:59:48.117
listen out for them, and lots more
interesting guests on the pod coming up.
00:59:48.177 --> 00:59:51.957
So do stick around and once again,
if you have any feedback, if you
00:59:51.957 --> 00:59:58.437
want more of us or less of us or
different guests, then please do tell
00:59:58.437 --> 01:00:00.387
us and we will adjust accordingly.
01:00:00.927 --> 01:00:01.802
And with that, I think we should wrap.
01:00:02.802 --> 01:00:03.312
Thanks Tom.
01:00:04.351 --> 01:00:05.421
Tom: Jonny, thanks for
listening, everyone.
01:00:06.162 --> 01:00:06.462
Jonny: Bye.