Will Github Survive AI? with Sam Lambert

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Okay, so listening to a very special episode of members of technical staff, uh what Sam doesn't actually know is that I say that for every episode.
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So I've completely I've completely diminished the meaning of it.
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So I'll have to find some other sort of synonym or some shit for that.
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Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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But everything is special, right?
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I mean, that's the thing.
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I mean, like like San Francisco's back.
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I mean, so I have heard.
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Yeah.
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Everything is happening.
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Um, people are coding with like 16 agents, people are moving here and paying$5,000 a month for a one-bedroom apartment to work on their AI-powered B2B SAS stuff.
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That's a cheap apartment.
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It's cheap now.
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My first apartment was ridiculously expensive.
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I moved here in 2015, so it's just all back again.
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It's not that's right, it's no worse than I remember it.
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You know, I was so yeah, so when I moved, so I was 2017 and for the apartment which sort of doubled as our college dorms.
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It was on Mission and Ninth.
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Yep.
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And I was splitting a uh I believe it was like a 200 square foot studio apartment with somebody else.
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Yeah.
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And I was paying 1,500.
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Yeah, see.
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Yeah, that's wild.
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I couldn't believe, yeah, you just show up, you used to have to it probably still the same now.
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You used to have to show up with like a pre-filled credit report, which I obviously didn't have any credit because I just moved to the city.
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Of course.
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Of course.
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Um yeah, I mean that was wild.
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Yeah.
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I mean, still apparently it's like that again.
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Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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And you know, like the bidding wars, and it's just like people, people submitting like 12 months of rent just.
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Yeah, that used to happen too.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I am that old now that I can say, yeah, I remember back when this happened previously.
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I've I've been here long enough.
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I think I feel like 2019 was a special, it's like like that year before COVID.
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Yeah.
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It was like everything was like it got better again though, because of COVID.
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They finished all the projects and everyone left.
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So there was loads of housing inventory showed up and now it's all gone again.
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Exactly, exactly.
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It's you know, it's it's a it's this beautiful secular thing.
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Like is, like is, is that the way to put it?
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Basically the way that GitHub is going at the moment, right?
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Beautiful secular, it's up and it's down and it's up and it's down.
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And so I figured, what better person to bring on than somebody who was a part of the great organization in which we a minor part.
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A minor part.
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I mean, he's uh, you know, I'm here to glaze, uh, I can do the glazing, that's totally fine.
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So but you know, but it's it's one of those things in which there's been ample commentary about it on X.com, the other thing.
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And so therefore, you know, why not bring someone who is technical on to members of technical staff to talk about how GitHub affects all of us, right?
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Massively.
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Massively.
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Massively.
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So I guess like where I probably would start is what's happening to GitHub?
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Like what's the what's that sort of like the high level?
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I mean, you know, you can we can we can touch on the downtime, right?
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We can talk or uptime or however you want to think of it now.
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Uptime.
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Yeah, you can yeah, you can call it that.
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Yeah.
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I mean it's going down every day, right?
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Like it's under extreme load, which is tough and getting a lot of commentary.
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Like this always used to be the same.
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Like back in the day, we would get people very unhappy when we went down.
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Yep.
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It seemed like well, we had our growth, we had our scaling era.
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Like we had this time where we would go down a lot and it would really piss people off.
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It was nothing like this though.
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Right.
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This collision of like agent load and you know, just factors, I guess, with Microsoft purchasing the company a while back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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As really That's right, because you because you actually tweeted about you, you tweeted about um the Microsoft purchase.
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Gosh, I I don't actually have it in my notes, but it was something along the lines of like, you know, an acquisition that Microsoft hasn't fucked up or something along those lines.
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And we all kid ourselves that this would be the one they wouldn't fuck up, but that was it.
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That was it.
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Here we are.
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Let's hope for the next one.
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We can hope for the next one.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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Uh yeah, it's just a sad it's just sad to see it in the state and just having upset and people just constantly talking about leaving GitHub is very sad.
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Right.
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Um Absolutely, absolutely.
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It's hard to watch.
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I mean, uh I talked to a lot of people that used to be at GitHub, but seeing that angry unicorn creates a very different response for all of us than it does.
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I know it's annoying for everyone to see it, but for for people that like lived on the pager for that product.
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Right, right.
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It's like the like the fail, like the fail whale too.
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Yeah, like just seeing it is still a terrible stress response for every everybody and like thinking what could be the problem.
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Um yeah, it's a sad it's a sad state of affairs, really, unfortunately.
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Totally.
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And hopefully things I believe they will stabilize things, they have to.
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Yeah.
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Um yeah, I think people are just unhappy generally.
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Yeah.
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I think you know, it's a product that's really hard to build because the audience is just so technical and cares so much about it.
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Yes.
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And just kind of loved it.
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Like I remember I used to run into people.
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So I joined in 2013.
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I got I was there, I think I was employee 120 or something like that.
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So not super early, not super early, but early enough to see like a certain era for the company.
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People back then, even in 2013, would walk up to you and say, Oh, I pay for GitHub, even though I don't really need it.
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I just kind of like want you guys to do well.
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And people also would tell me it was the first thing they paid for online or like the first workplace.
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I was gonna say, because the 2010s were kind of like that, right?
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It's like like a lot of free software.
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A lot of free software.
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Like people like not necessarily willing to pay for stuff.
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Correct.
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It was new for everybody, and people didn't love the model we had, which was like if you wanted private repos, you had to pay.
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Yes.
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But people just fell in love with the product.
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It was just like very pure.
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A lot of tech then was like selling ads or doing whatever, right?
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And um yeah, I think it's hits us all when we see something that we sort of grew up on.
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Yes, struggling or just changing so rapidly under a giant company.
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Absolutely.
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Like, do you think do you think now it's it's I mean, I know I've seen commentary on this, right?
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But like, do you think in order to save GitHub there might actually have to be some sort of like pay per commit model that has to come in in order to sort of counteract all of the human like bot?
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I just think I just think it's not gonna work.
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I don't think anyone is gonna pay for anything that feels like a tax on being productive with like AR.
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You want people to go nuts.
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I think we either either someone comes up with a convincing alternative to GitHub, which I just can't imagine happening.
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Yeah.
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Or we're just gonna have to knuckle through this one and just hope that they correct or fix like because what was the first what was before GitHub?
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It was like SourceForge, right?
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SourceForge.
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Uh there was was Google code around before.
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I can't remember if it was before it's well behind my time.
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They shut it down though, and told we met with them after they did.
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They see it, they truly ced it to us.
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The announcement post actually was like very nice, like GitHub one, basically.
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Yep.
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Microsoft even had one as well.
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There's been so many, but there's never been one prevailing one.
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Yes.
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Uh it probably was SourceForge, but that was back like in with SVN.
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GitHub and Git kind of went along.
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Bitbucket was before GitHub as well, right?
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Yeah, all around the same time.
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Yeah, Mercurial, Bitbucket.
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Yep.
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It's not even still around.
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Maybe it is.
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Bitbucket?
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Yeah.
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I think so.
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I think so.
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I I feel like Australian Git hosting.
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I feel like when I started coding, so that would have been 2019, 2020.
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Yep.
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You know, I mean like I've I've basically like all I can say to that end is like, I've seen the name.
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Yeah, right.
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And there's GitLab now as well, but no one's gonna use that either.
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That's actually that was actually gonna be one of my questions was like, how like how is GitLab not making any sort of inroads here?
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Without having to, you know, you don't have to like you don't have to commit drive-by's.
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It's very big in enterprises.
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I don't know it's gonna have the community.
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Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's gonna be weird.
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I mean, shifting communities is really hard, just just moving them from one place to the other.
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Yeah.
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Also, there's just I don't know, there was never that much of a social network to it though.
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That's one thing that ever I saw takes about that this morning.
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No, no data support it ever really having a social part.
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People actually didn't want to.
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Every time it was floated that we would connect maintainers with their audience more, the maintainers did not want that.
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Yeah, well, I mean, so many of the great maintainers are anonymous.
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Yeah, that's also that's very true.
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They just don't want to be talking, they want to be hassled.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So that never really worked.
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Yes.
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I don't know.
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Maybe the set maybe either GitHub turns it around, or maybe the future's more oblique, which it just doesn't become important.
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Yeah.
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There's other products that are there that are doing a lot more, like Pierre are doing kind of code hosting, right?
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Um, which is gonna support a whole new wave of these like products where everyone's kind of doing it, right?
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Like you need it as part of like lovable because all these are doing it as part of like their workflow.
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Yep.
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So that's gonna dissipate some work.
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Um GitHub.
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I hate to I mean I hate to be an absolute shill, but Zoe Computer like works with works with me.
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Angel investor.
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Yes.
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Just gotta go to I've gotta like plug and do all the like financial disclosures.
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So there's like, you know, same sort of deal, right?
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I mean, it is really, really just kind of like, you know, they they do their personal personal automations, all those sorts of things, almost like an open cloud.
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And they host it themselves.
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Yes.
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Yeah, yes.
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So there's that, you know, and so you know, I have a I have a stake in this game, and not necessarily against GitHub, because I still push code to GitHub when it works.
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And I think that is where a lot of it, you know, and I and again, this is members of technical stuff.
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So naturally, I have a whole host of tweets that we can actually look at.
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Okay.
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And you know what?
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I've completely even forgotten um what I did, so I'm gonna be reacting in real time to it.
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Okay.
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Oh, there's um Mitchell, the ghostly.
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So ghosty leaving GitLab.
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Completely understood it, just very sad to see.
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Yes, and so this was so uh for those listening, this reads Um says Ghosty is leaving GitHub.
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I'm GitHub user 1299.
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Joined February 2008.
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I visited GitHub almost every single day for over 18 years.
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It's never been a question for me where I'd put my projects, always GitHub.
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I'm super sad to say this, but it's time to go.
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And this was 2.8 million views at 16,000 likes.
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Um and I was I was trying to actually see, like uh I was trying to see if he if he had picked a particular alternative that he's posted on the timeline.
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I mean I didn't yeah, I didn't didn't research that.
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I think he's gonna announce that soon.
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Yeah, I'm I figured as much.
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It's a shame to use lose Mitchell.
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He's a legend in open source.
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Yes.
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And a very earnest, undramatic person.
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So it's very I'm sure that got some attention.
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Totally, totally.
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Internally.
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Of course, there's a lot, um, you know, there, you know, from the from the chief influencers we might call them, you know, from Theo, GitHub has been down.
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Uh GitHub has been down for most of the day.
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I'm so tired of this never being so ready to move on.
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Um, obviously, Primogen had a similar thing.
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Obviously, like in Primogen styles from April 2nd.
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It was foretold, but it is now reality.
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GitHub has achieved two nines of reliability.
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So this was when the uptime ticks down below 90%, 89.91% uptime.
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Uh that's that's a thing.
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And then of course, I I okay, this one was pretty funny.
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This one was pretty funny, I must say.
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So this is from Beeganbot.
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Um, he said, I told my girlfriend I can't hang out right now.
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GitHub is up, so I have to work.
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Don't know when I'll get this chance.
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She probably won't have to wait long, you'll be back.
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Yeah, did you meet did you meet Beeganbot at uh React Miami?
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He's he he's um he works with Prime.
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Uh he probably would have been in that house.
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Oh yeah, I did actually.
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I did, yes, I actually absolutely did.
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Yeah.
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I haven't connected them to online though.
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Totally, totally.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I mean, I'm you know so funny.
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Yeah, he's pretty good.
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He's pretty good.
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He I really liked his like um he had this like whole tirade like with the with the whole G-Stack posts, um, you know, many subjects.
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Yeah, the G stack.
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We don't we don't have to go there.
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Gary Ted's a friend of the show.
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I've spoken about it a bit.
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Growth of G Stack, partly responsible for GitHub being down as well.
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:31.679
And this is so it's funny you say that because um I was talking to you earlier about this particular repo.
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.279
And so this is from uh Josh from Century.
00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:38.000
Uh he created a repo called Codemaxed.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.960
So this was from uh not too long ago, so April 17.
00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:51.519
It was like, with my Codemax project surpassing 353 million lines of code, not a typo, I actually got a GitHub cease and desist.
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:56.159
We've noted noticed that this repository is growing fast while committing very frequently.
00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:59.919
This looks like some sort of automated activity that serves no purpose.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:08.240
And if we look at the if we look at the repo, so this came about um with like Gary's hands line whole line uh thing.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:10.720
So so it is gone.
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:11.679
Uh he did he did actually.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.000
Oh, it was just generating slot burn tokens.
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:15.840
Using a lot of water.
00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:27.120
It was just out here trying to see how many lines of slot we can get to as quickly as possible, built with code maxing, SCLI, it's all purpose built, to generate the maximum possible lines of code and commits in minimum time.
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:29.759
Meta staff loved that one, I'm sure.
00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:33.120
I'm having to gamify that.
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:37.440
And it was like, yeah, the the pitch, one command, one million lines, zero value to it.
00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.720
Yeah, I can tell what happened on the inside with that.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.759
Well, we used to have people used to do some nuts things back in our day.
00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:52.240
Not nothing like this, but we'd get some absolutely terribly behaving product projects that we would have to send similar notes to that would just use Git in like horrifically bad ways.
00:12:52.399 --> 00:13:00.559
I can imagine in the world of AI, it's just like unreal how much is traffic is getting hit if they're getting hit with random stuff like this.
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.360
Yes, yes, and I think an impressive amount of lines of code though.
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.960
350 million in like this is anthropic bell.
00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.759
Yeah, it's it's like like yeah, 350 million likes.
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:13.120
I think that was in just a couple of days.
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:20.559
I mean, if you have like, I mean, it kind of makes sense if you have a auto, you know, CLI tool, auto command, committing all day long lines.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:26.399
But, you know, that was in response to to Gary Tan's whole 67,000.
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:28.799
How many lines of code is in Gary Tan's repo now?
00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:29.360
You know what?
00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:30.159
Let's go ahead and check this out.
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:30.960
Let's go ahead and check this out.
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:32.399
Well, then I'll show you on the actual.
00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.840
Um if I just I mean, G Stack Right, it's pretty good SEO actually.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:43.600
I did look at the size of his blog's lines of code, and it was like half the size of our full Rails app, which powers PlanetScale.
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:58.639
There was so there was a whole thread picking it apart, and I think um, you know, what it what it managed to find, and I mean it's pretty easy to find when you simply just open dev tools, and it was like, I think it was like six megs, six megabytes was being shipped to the user.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:03.440
And so you had like, it was clear that they were trying to do image optimization.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:09.279
So the agent was trying to do image optimization using a library like you know, Sharp or something like that.
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:21.120
And of course, you know, if anybody knows how image optimization works, generally with a library like that, is it you know, you will in your code base or in your in your repository, you'll have all of the different size images, right?
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.639
And then you'll use a library like Sharp to basically pick the right one.
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:26.240
And it was picking the largest one ever seen.
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:27.679
It was picking all of them.
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:29.519
Oh, it delivered every single version.
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:31.039
It was shipping every single one.
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.960
So he had like the Edge.
00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:34.480
Wow.
00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:39.600
Yeah, it was shipping all of them, and so you just had these like raw PNGs being shipped to the user.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:43.200
Hey, you know still probably not the worst thing anyone pushed to GitHub.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:43.919
You know what?
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:51.279
And I was and I was saying this, um, I forget exactly who I I think I think I was like, I forget exactly when I was talking about this.
00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:57.120
Um, but basically all I said it really is a miracle of like the modern web, how that was still usable.
00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.679
Yeah, of yeah, internet, yeah, bandwidth.
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:00.960
Exactly, exactly.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.679
Like I have an optimistic spin on it, that's for sure.
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:04.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:05.279
It's like, you know what?
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.120
Like, like I have good Wi-Fi, I could access this totally fine.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.879
And things would show up and all those things, even though I'm being shipped six megabytes.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:14.159
I haven't even been on the website.
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:15.279
I should I should look into this.
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.039
The whole G stat thing kind of went past me.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:17.919
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.440
I am um, you know, it's it's like it's pretty good.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.120
I mean, it's a very, very popular thing.
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:28.000
It's a very, very popular thing, and you know, like the whole the whole idea of like agent skills, all those sorts of things.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.720
I've not really gone down that rubber all because I don't know if those, yeah.
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:31.759
No, it's you very useful.
00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:32.559
It is actually very useful.
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.320
We have a whole set of R's for building internally.
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:35.120
Totally, totally.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.320
Exactly, exactly.
00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:49.200
Well, if it isn't the podcaster that for Cott to do a bunch of his ad reads again, because the interview with Sam talking about GitHub's woes was just too good to interrupt.
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:55.679
So, L fucking loser podcaster, doesn't do his job, doesn't satisfy his contracts.
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.759
Um it's unfortunate.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:58.399
It's unfortunate.
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.600
We'll get to it in a little bit, but I just wanted to respond to a couple of allegations.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.080
No, it's not the gay allegations, unfortunately.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.480
Can't necessarily respond to that just yet.
00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:10.399
But you might have remembered uh those loyal MOTS listeners.
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.519
I spoke a little bit about my body fat percentage a few episodes ago.
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:17.440
Now, people tended to not believe me.
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:18.559
So what have we done here?
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:20.320
We've gone out and got a DEXA scan.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:21.519
What does it say?
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.480
What does it say?
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.360
If I can actually just get this up here, those listening are probably having a beautiful ASMR experience.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:28.879
What does that say there?
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:29.840
9.2%.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.759
9.2% body fat.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:32.639
So there you fucking go.
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.440
I don't really know what it means.
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:35.120
I've never had a DEXA scan in my life.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.399
I just kind of estimated that I'd be sub 10%, so I'm glad I didn't lie.
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.440
Anyway, on to who uh pays me.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.720
So basically, capu.ai, your agentic IDE.
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.799
Of course, you can connect it to your Slack and get non-technicals to actually push code to your repos.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:50.240
It sounds fucking terrifying.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.120
Uh who else?
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:52.480
Superbower.com.
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:58.240
Of course, you might be wondering how I'm able to achieve a sub-10% body fat and the kind of lean mass.
00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:59.200
Well, that's by going to the gym.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:06.000
But I tell you what also helps with the gym, superbower.com, because it is your one-stop shop for preventative health.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.920
And of course, you can actually get the care that billionaires get for less than$200 a year.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:11.359
Track all of your biomarkers.
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:22.240
I got my testosterone, checked all of these sorts of things that I find useful as a gym, bro, for a fraction of the cost of just going to, say, like a lab corp or something like that.
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.000
Um most people generally don't know what to test either with those sorts of things.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.359
Uh last but not least, of course, blackbox.ai nearly got two two fucking minutes of me just yapping at you.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.640
W podcaster.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:38.960
Basically, blackbox.ai, of course, your one-stop shop for coding agents, coding agents, right?
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.759
So go ahead and use Claude, Codex, the Blackbox agent.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:51.039
You can use all of these agents in one place, you can spin them up in parallel, you can use the IDE, you can use the CLI, you can use the VS Code extension.
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:57.279
Blackbox has all of these and is trusted by over 30 million developers worldwide.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:09.519
I guess the last thing, um, and so this was kind of like this was kind of, you know, I sort of asked the question about um, you know, whether whether GitHub would move to sort of like a pay-per-commit, pay-per-four-view.
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:15.920
I mean, Armjad said, if I bring up um Armjad's tweet from April 28th, so just a few days ago.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:21.359
So Armjad said, it's honestly impressive that GitHub kept the service up at all given this kind of growth.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.359
I predicted this four years ago.
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:27.359
Free services will become untenable with the advent of human-level bots.
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:38.160
Worth exploring micropayments, even cents per Git push might be enough to reduce spam and make this sustainable, maybe powered by Bitcoin to keep this open and accessible as opposed to KYCing users.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.119
Any thoughts on this particular theory?
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.359
I mean, it would gate and stop spam.
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:45.200
That's for sure that is for sure.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.039
I think it would just upset people very much.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:47.680
Of course.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.400
Well, I mean, you know, like like I mean, we I mean we kind of touched on the open source developers, right?
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:53.920
I mean, those that want to stay anonymous.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:00.160
Like, there are there I think what people don't actually realise about the open source community is that there are truly people there that are just in it for the love of the city.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:00.799
They have to be.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.119
Yeah.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:08.400
We used to get the Chinese government trying to find out who was behind many different repos continually at GitHub.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.279
So they attacked us for two weeks over a repo that was designed to get around the firewall.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:14.000
No way.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.240
Yeah, they would and the Russian guy, yeah.
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:20.480
I mean there's load loads of code on GitHub that people were desperate to find out who's behind it.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:22.400
Yeah or even just pushed it up.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:29.440
Yeah, it was um it's there's been constant I mean, there's just always forever been challenges with hosting just code.
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.039
We used to get in all we got trouble because of Gamergate once.
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.480
Someone put like a satirical that was scary.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.880
Um they they actually got into the office, I think.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.160
Um what goes on over, you know.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:47.519
Or or just randomly people would host illegal websites on GitHub pages.
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:54.400
So we'd quite you know, a few times I'd be called into a meeting that like Interpol would show up at the office.
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:54.880
Yep.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:59.200
Because that's just where they'd looked up where IPs would register or whatever.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:19:59.519
Right.
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:00.319
It was just constant.
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.799
I mean it's the same thing whenever you put something popular online, you're gonna get all of this kind of abuse.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.480
But now it must just be unbelievable.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:13.359
And then obviously we'd get people checking in, just like trying to check in videos and ridiculous things into and just use it as a like a free archive.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:13.920
Yes.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:22.720
Um he's right, it would work, it would just be Yeah, I mean, like I mean, to me it seems like you know, innovation code.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.480
I mean, like I see I see a lot of software innovation just coming from open source.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.559
I mean, like open claw was open source.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:48.720
You know, and it's like like open claw, I mean, if there is anything that I've been thinking about, not that I not that I code much at all nowadays, but if there's anything that I'm thinking about when it comes to like like I don't know, writing small angel checks or stuff like this, you know, OpenClaw, uh, it completely changed how I think about the way that software is moving.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:21:01.359
Because before OpenClaw, I was looking at sort of like, you know, a lot of these sorts of um, you know, these computer use products, and I was just thinking, like, look, yeah, like it's it's cool, I can see where it's going, but I'm like, it's not there yet.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.519
You know, it's not there for me to use it yet.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:09.279
Like I don't, you know, I don't want to go ahead and put the time in to set it up, like I can use my time better elsewhere.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:14.160
And then OpenClaw comes along and suddenly all of these computer use projects are just just instantly viable.
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:15.039
Yeah, correct.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.960
Like and it also and it showed what people want.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:17.279
Yes.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.319
Right, like even though people were very critical of it, they shouldn't have been.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:24.640
Um it just showed what people really like dug into something they want.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:27.680
And obviously it's like spawned a ton of other companies that are gonna do it, of course.
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.400
Um in a more kind of polished way.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:30.720
Yeah.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.640
Like I ran it, and now I just use poke.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.880
Um because it gives me like the same experience basically.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:39.279
That's right.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:46.160
I can tunnel, I can get like they have a tunnel thing, so you can have it tunnel and run stuff on a la on a Mac Mini or whatever, which it is.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.200
Yes.
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.839
Um yeah, I mean it was it just it was very very illustrative of what people expected.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.079
It's what people wanted when AI showed up, right?
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.839
They wanted this like really smart assistant.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:56.160
Yep.
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:57.359
And it just gave people that.
00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.839
I do worry for open source in general, though, in the world of AI.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.480
Yeah.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.720
I think we're gonna lose people are gonna lose individuals, like Peter's very unique, right?
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:08.559
Like he'd already sold his company, this was a hobby for him.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:16.880
I think people that are open sourcing software to then back it by a commercial company are gonna really question in the future.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:17.359
Right.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:25.839
And and this is and this has sort of been I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but this I mean we've seen this trend for a little, like even well pre-open claw, right?
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.680
I mean I even think I even think of Bun, right?
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.279
Something something like Bun runtime being VC backed and just being acquired by Anthropic.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:31.599
Mm-hmm.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:32.880
Yeah, it was a great outcome for them.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.400
But now it's just hard, like especially with the copying that's possible now with AI.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:36.799
Yes.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:38.960
I think open source was struggling anyway.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:45.759
Truly is, like just the incentives, money, um, how few people maintain such critical.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.839
That's why they did GitHub sponsors, because it addresses that issue.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:23:01.359
But now the sad thing is people who've spent decades like tending to really good open source projects and now just having their work just disregarded or just copied completely and spended elsewhere.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:01.680
Yeah.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:06.079
Or companies that just have a ton of money to spend on tokens can just copy like it's lowered the barrier.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:14.559
Like used to, if you're open source something big and complex, it's still so much skill in running it or understanding how it works or being part of the team that wrote it.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:14.880
Yes.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.799
AI has made that much less of a problem for people that want to copy.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:19.839
Totally, totally.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.839
And then but then something, you know, like a an open source project that holds up half the internet like Linux, right?
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.400
Yeah, I mean, those guys are essentially employed by Meta.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.599
Yeah, or Meta, all the large company like their sponsorship there.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:32.000
Yeah.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.599
Yeah, that like LibSSR was the one that they used with the GitHub sponsors.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:39.200
Like you had one guy maintaining it, and it's just like critical to the functioning of the internet.
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:39.920
Yes.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.240
Um yeah, hopeful.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.920
And then now all this like people are just sending random like pull requests full of junk.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:48.400
All right.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.480
Correct.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:53.839
I think that's annoying people on GitHub as much as the down.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:59.680
It's like it's it's a swirl of like culturally GitHub is in this odd place because of AI.
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.160
Yep.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.160
And then with it going down and having issues, that's like is an aspirating thing.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:05.680
It's totally rough.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:06.720
Totally rough time.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.640
I think the thing to wrap on, I mean, you actually made a post.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.680
If I bring it up, I'll be able to tell you how long ago this was.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:15.039
It's actually only just a few days ago.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:15.200
Okay.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:16.079
April 30.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:22.240
You were talking about uh you mentioned if the community wants to save contemporary GitHub, we should rally around uh Kay Daigle.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:23.039
Yes, Mr.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:23.359
Kyle.
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:24.240
Kyle Daigle.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:30.720
And so becoming independent CEO, he has been there since the old days, knows the soul of the product, and knows how to do it.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:35.759
So are you able to like expand a little bit on you know why that might actually be the case?
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:45.279
I think he's been there since 2012 or 2013, built big parts of the product, stayed there for probably one of the longest tenure people.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:45.920
Yep.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.960
Almost certainly is one of the longest tenure people there.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:50.400
It was a weird company.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.119
It was a really strange time, really strange product.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:25:02.559
Lots of intangibles, like with every company, like you with every company that makes something great, there's always these odd, you know, intangible pieces to the culture that are really important.
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.200
And over the years that kind of has really dissipated.
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:05.599
Yeah.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:06.960
He remembers it, I know he does.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.759
And he's like lived inside the Microsoft machine long enough, and clearly he's doing really well.
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.680
His communication is the only reason we know why GitHub was having these issues.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:15.920
Right.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.559
Like he went out on a limb and did it and spoke to the community.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.240
I think if it he could do that full time.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:20.799
Yeah.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.039
And that was part of his thing to do it, he could.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:28.400
But now Mike GitHub is layered so deep inside of Microsoft.coms a bureaucracy problem.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.039
Massively.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:30.880
I mean Microsoft is an amazing company.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.799
There's many get there's many revenue lines there that are way bigger and way more important to them than GitHub.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.759
I don't know, it feels like GitHub should be treated like they'd bought Wikipedia or something.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.519
You know, so like it's a bit more there's something a bit more special to it.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.440
And like clearly it's like the backlash has not been good for them.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:51.279
And I think I just believe he could turn it.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:52.640
I've known him for a very, very long time.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:53.039
Yes.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.039
We worked together very closely back in the day.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:56.000
He could do it.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.039
There's not just not many people left there that would be able to.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:25:59.920
Totally, totally.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.279
I would love to see it, maybe.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.960
I think we all would.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.960
Even even my ass that like barely codes anymore.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:06.240
I'm still pushing to GitHub.
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.160
The message to everyone is rally around Kyle.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:08.400
Yes.
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.920
Command it right to your local GitHub representative.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:14.880
I think it's I think it's good.
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:15.440
I think it's good.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.759
I'm happy to I'm happy to amplify this message, you know, as a as a um Get him on, he comes to San Francisco.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:23.200
Totally down, totally down.
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:31.680
I mean, you know, I think that the interesting thing for members of technical staff, if I can get him off of his sort of like comms, you know, comms locked, like very, very polished, maybe I don't know.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:33.839
Does he have like a cool hobby that he does?
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:35.759
Do you know, by any chance?
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:36.559
I don't know.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:37.200
Any cool hobbies?
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:39.279
Maybe he's playing golf or something, I don't know.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.039
I don't think Carl's a golfer.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.000
I'll ask him after this.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.720
I'm curious now what hobbies that what hobbies he does have.
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.279
Totally, because I think that's always that's not like he's a cute man of the people, kind of that's that's why he could do it.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:50.240
He is a man of the people.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.279
I mean, Carl, if you if you end up seeing this, come on, come on, uh members of technical staff, right?
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.119
Make your campaign.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.240
Yes, yes, yes.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:00.240
You'll be seen by the right people.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:00.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:01.519
I promise you that.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.480
I promise you that.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:07.759
Well, I think that's actually a good place to wrap unless you have any closing thoughts on this whole saga.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:08.960
Very sad.
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:13.759
Totally.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:14.880
We'll see how it goes.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:15.599
Totally.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:16.880
I couldn't agree more.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.440
Well, you've been listening to another episode of Members of Technical Stuff.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:21.440
We'll go ahead and see you on the timeline again real soon.