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Hello and welcome to a summer bonus episode of Material Matters with Grant Gibson.
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In association with Esop, I'm recorded in store during the Three Days of Design Festival in Copenhagen.
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This is a podcast where I speak to a designer, maker, artist, or architect about a material or technique with which they are intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their life and career.
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Think of it as a bit like Desert Island discs but with materials instead of music.
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Today I'm delighted to be joined by Rebecca Lawson, Aesop's head of sustainability, and the multi-award-winning artist and designer Jesse French, founder of Melbourne-based design studio Other Matter, which has built a global reputation through its work with algae-driven polymers.
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We're going to be chatting about Aesop's philosophy on sustainability and circular design, and Jessie's history with her material of choice, as well as the work the pair have done together.
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Rebecca, Jesse, lovely to see you both.
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How are you?
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Lovely to be here.
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I'm great.
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Oh good.
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Beautiful to be here.
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So look, it's Friday morning.
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Uh we're on day three of three days of design, the final day.
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How has it been for you?
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What have you been up to, Jesse?
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Oh God, it's been super busy.
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It's, you know, three days is a real sprint.
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Um we've been here, we've done beautiful events uh here in this store, actually.
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Uh, and then I'm part of another exhibition, which is actually where you see what we do with the signage after it's been here.
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So being darting between these two things and then darting to things uh in between on bikes.
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It's it's been gorgeous.
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Very good, Rebecca.
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Um yeah, this is my second three days of design, but my first was Aesop.
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So it's been amazing to be in both this store and another in Nijhaven.
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We've had events with Jesse, we've had events with customers.
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Um, yeah, and just to feel like the buzz in the city, it's been like really energizing and yeah, trying to find some time before we leave to go and take in some of the events for myself.
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Very good, very good.
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So we have a long tradition on this podcast of asking guests to kind of describe their location.
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I mean it gives listeners a sense of place and perhaps provides a glimpse into how the guest thinks.
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I mean, obviously, this episode is slightly different, I guess, but tradition prevails.
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Rebecca, can you maybe describe the store where we are for us?
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Yes.
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So we're on, and excuse my non-um good Danish pronunciation, but Komprints Garda.
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Um and we're in Aesop store that was designed um and reference to the Louisiana Um Museum, a very famous Danish art museum.
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So when our store designers were thinking about the references for this store, they took a train 30 minutes outside of Copenhagen, and they just loved the way that materiality had been used in Louisiana.
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So it's lots of brick surfaces.
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I was gonna say it is very bricky.
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Yes, if you could see us now, we're surrounded by bricks and the kind of combination of brick and timber and the kind of views and the reverence that that created for art.
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And they wanted to bring a little bit of that same reverence for Aesop products into the way that they designed this space.
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So they've used the same um sort of reddy brown traditional Copenhagen bricks made by a local mason.
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So if you can imagine, we're kind of sitting in a the middle of a spiral of brickwork, um, and we have the kind of warm wood on the ceiling and on the shelves that is that nod to Louisiana.
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Because obviously you're a global brand, but every store has a kind of local feel.
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Yes, that's right.
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There's no one Aesop store that's the same.
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Each one of them is designed completely uniquely.
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Um, and the intention has always been to weave it into the local neighborhood, not to impose a store, but to take the cues from what's around us.
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Very good.
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And Jesse, you're a long way from home.
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So maybe you can describe what your studio looks like.
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And how do you work?
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Give listeners a bit of a sense.
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When you get to our studio, uh we've got these beautiful Japanese doors that you go in, you go kind of under a roller door through these Japanese doors, and then we've got a bit of a welcome area.
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There's like a showroom-ish part of all of our past work.
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And then we've got a big workspace because everything in the warehouse is on wheels, so we change up the configuration depending on what the project is.
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That's interesting.
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It's pretty nice.
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But one thing that is really notable when you come to our space is that it looks a lot more like a kitchen than anything else.
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So there's a huge wall of big stockpots, and that's what we cook in.
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And it's it's much more a cooking practice than anything else.
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Rebecca, I'm gonna return to you because I think we need to place Aesop's philosophy a little bit.
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The company was Australian.
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Yes.
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Melbourne founded.
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Acquired by L'Oreal in 23.
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I mean, can you talk a little bit about the philosophy behind the brand?
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Yes.
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So it's been an amazing trajectory for Aesop.
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So the roots of the brand were in Melbourne in 1987.
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Dennis was a hairdresser and developed um products of his own using essential oils and really like worked from the philosophy of he wanted products that were purposeful.
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It was always about the purpose.
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Um, and he applied that philosophy both to the formulations, the way that he used essential oils, which at the time was very unique, um, and also his approach to packaging.
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So we talk about it as the kind of like essentialist um philosophy.
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So nothing superfluous, nothing that doesn't have a utilitarian kind of intent behind it.
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So you wouldn't see lots of outer packaging on an ASOP product, you won't see cellophane.
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So things that probably now are thought about as sustainability were just in the brand's DNA from the very beginning.
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Um, and it wasn't actually until 2004 that they had their first store.
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So there was a bit of time just kind of like building up the brand.
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And that first store was in St Kilda, again in Melbourne.
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Um, and it was really unconventional at the time because it was in an underground car park, um, in a kind of really kind of long, narrow, kind of sloping store.
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And people at the time, I think, thought, what on earth are they doing?
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And I think that that's the kind of the other element of eSop is this kind of like non-conformist uh philosophy.
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Um, and it that's where the kind of store design philosophy really began of not going in, putting in all new materials, but actually looking at what's there and thinking about like what does that give to a space, and then trying to work from those references.
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Um, and that has endured now over 400 signature stores globally in so many different markets around the world, but still that same non-conformist kind of mindset and that attention to what is local, what matters, what is part of the neighborhood.
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You're B Corps certified as well.
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Yes.
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What does that entail?
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So we became a B Corp in 2020, and the way that we kind of think about B Corp is that the heritage and the values of the brand were there and were what were informing what we did in a kind of sustainable way, in the way that we interacted in our communities long before 2020.
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But being able to become a B Corp gave us that structure to ensure that we were driving ourselves always onwards, like as we have grown, as we have become more global, as things have become more complicated.
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B Corp kind of provided that framework for us to really ensure that we were holding ourselves to account, that we're able to see like where we need to progress to drive that improvement.
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And again, it's like a proof point to say to customers like this is not just us making up, you know, we're sustainable.
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It's this set of standards, environmental, social, and the way that we run our company, that again have been looked at rigorously by a third-party body.
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Um, and when you see the B Court mark, you know that that intent, that commitment, um, and that commitment to transparency as well sits there.
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Were there areas you needed to address?
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Yes, I I think any business, a very complicated business.
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You know, not everything is always going to be like absolutely from day one.
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Um, you know, I always think of sustainability as an ever-evolving journey, um, ever requiring improvement, especially as the kind of context around us changes with things like climate change and the kind of impacts that we're seeing on nature.
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So we have to be agile and um make sure that we're improving across those areas.
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So, for example, like when we were first a business back in like 2000, we wouldn't have um calculated our carbon footprint and we wouldn't have understood necessarily in the same detail that we do now what is our impact on climate change, how does climate change impact us?
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Whereas over time now we calculate our carbon footprint every year, we've got um a climate action plan that looks at where our hotspots are, we understand like the actions that we can take as a business.
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So I think it's just like that ever-evolving maturity.
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I mean, I'm interested because we're sitting here with Jesse, who has created a kind of bioplastic from algae, but you use plastic bottles.
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Why?
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I think that when we think about plastic in our business, again, it's an intentional decision that has been taken with a number of different factors in mind.
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So because our formulations are high in essential oils, it doesn't necessarily interact with all packaging materials well.
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You have to choose a packaging material that works with our kind of formulations.
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Um, we think about also like the weight of our packaging when we're shipping it around the world.
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So if we were to choose a heavier material, that generates more carbon.
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Um, we think about like how we protect our formulations.
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So the fact that it is this amber tinted plastic means that that stops the kind of sun interacting with it in the same way.
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So there's lots of different considerations.
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And we look at it across the life cycle of a material.
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So, you know, there may be a day in which you could develop new materials that would be substitutes for the plastic that we use today.
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Um, but we have to continue to kind of explore those.
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And we're looking at now ways like how can we keep bottles so that customers can reuse them through things like refill.
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Well, yes, I was going to ask you about that and and about circularity and what that means to the brand.
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Because you have a rinse and return scheme, for instance.
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Is that under trial?
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Is that been rolled out?
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Uh rinse and return is something that we've had for a number of years.
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Uh, it started in Asian markets.
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The idea behind the scheme is it's providing um a simple packaging take back service.
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We know that recycling systems vary a lot across worlds, across markets.
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And even where something is collected for recycling, it doesn't always get recycled.
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You sometimes have like some components that are harder to recycle than others.
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So the intention behind rinse and return is to take responsibility, provide that service.
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So it's really easy for a customer if they want to to just bring it back to us.
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Then we work with specialist partners to ensure it gets recycled wherever possible.
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Um, and that's something now that by the end of 2026 we will have globally.
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Okay.
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And I was reading your sustainability report before I came out to Copenhagen.
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Good student grant.
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I thought I'd better do it before I come out to Copenhagen because it's been quite frantic.
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Uh you have a tool called Artemis, which measures, analyzes, and sometimes addresses uh your store's use of materials, energy, and water.
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I'm wondering how that works.
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Artemis is a scorecard that we developed.
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So, you know, I was talking about the philosophy that each of our stores is unique, each of our stores is different.
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Because we've got a lot more stores than we had before, we also want to make sure that when we're making those material choices, making local choices is good, using what's there is good.
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But we also wanted to add that like extra layer of understanding for our architects and designers of the impact of the different material choices that women are making.
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So each one of our stores that's designed, the designers use this tool, Artemis.
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They can put in the exact material choices they're making, the exact weights, they can put information about where it's being sourced from, where it's being transported from.
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And then that means that we can essentially carbon footprint each one of our store designs.
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Right.
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And then we've used that to try and now share that information with our designers so that each year they see at the end of the year, this is the portfolio of stores that we designed.
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These were the average scores of the stores.
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And it sort of like encourages a little bit of healthy competition to you're creating a sustainable market.
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Yeah.
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To have that that best that best score.
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And you know, not every store will be like the lowest footprint, but across the portfolio, it means that we're able to continue driving down um the carbon association.
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So Artemis is for new stores, or you you can retrofit Artemis into stores you've already existed.
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We use it on each new store design.
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I think like our intention is where we've already got a store, we've already used the materials that that that has been done.
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And what we try and do with our stores is make sure that they endure so that we're not changing the interior of our stores like they have like a long life cycle.
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And then what we do, Artemis doesn't um Artemis is mainly about the design of the store, but then we're working on a program of improvements across how the stores are operated.
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So Raphael, our amazing um sustainable um store design lead, um, looks at things like our HVAC systems, like how we use awnings to like manage sun.
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We have like behavior guidelines for the staff in terms of like how to operate the store in terms of lighting, heating, cooling, um, to optimize them for energy and water consumption.
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All of which means, I'm guessing, Jesse, as someone who's engaging with a kind of post-petrochemical world, that this is a brand you're happy to work with.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think, you know, when you're talking before about uh plastics bottles and, you know, kind of like hinting at me that I make a bioplastic, you know, I think um it's important to kind of think about the fact that when you're talking about petrochemical plastics, you're talking about hundreds and thousands of different types of material.
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And they all have different considerations and pros.
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And, you know, the fact that petrochemical plastic is everywhere is is testament to the fact that it's actually an incredible material.
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Um and I am not absolutist in the way that I'm dealing with it.
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You know, I'm not I'm not anti-plastic.
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There are definitely like a shipping consideration where where plastic actually comes out better on a carbon metric.
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And I think that's the complexity of of dealing with all of these issues is you have, you know, chemical toxicity, you have carbon to think about, you have uh choice of material, and and they're complex choices to make.
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Yeah.
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There's nothing intrinsically wrong with plastic, it's the way that we use it is is the issue.
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Aaron Powell I think about uh you know being considered about when we use it.
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I mean we use plastic plastic in our studio, you know, it's impossible uh to avoid plastic.
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Um but it's just about being considered about yes, the afterlife, how can it be used, when is it being used, which plastic is being used, and what else could we be using and thinking about the uh the considerations of what else could be there?
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So I'm intrigued by your work and and the people you work with.
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I mean we hear a lot about greenwashing obviously nowadays.
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Do you find yourself turning projects down because you suspect the client has the wrong intentions?
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Aaron Powell We have really beautiful projects um and and we're very lucky that the the clients that come to us and the projects we work on are just naturally a very good fit.
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Um you know, the story of our work with ESOP is has been a really, really beautiful one.
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And the more that we do with them and the more types of projects we work on, because we've worked on everything from you know store campaigns to these design week activations to permanent store interior parts of the interior.
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And uh, you know, we meet different teams and we learn more about how considered the choices are, and it it's hard to do it on a small scale.
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It's even harder by huge quantum to do it on the scale of uh you know 470 stores around the world, uh, you know, huge masses of people in those organizations.
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And that is something that I think is is really impressive.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, we're gonna talk about your relationship with Aesop in in a little while, but I'm keen to get into your background.
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I mean, you have a background in history, I think I'm right in saying.
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History of science.
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And well, the philosophy of science.
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History and philosophy of science, yeah.
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But initially you kind of came to prominence as an artist.
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So how did you switch from the philosophy of science into art?
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I don't really think that these days a lot of the university courses really set you up for the kind of career.
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You know, I'm I'm a big I think it's definitely studying the history of science.
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You you learn more about how people came to these things through real, I guess, apprenticeships or, you know, immersion in a field.
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Um and so I think I was going to go back and study art, but you know, what I was interested in was really from this more scientific angle.
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Um and my undergrad was actually in business, and so I have this, you know, economics nerd background as well.
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It's quite an unusual combination, if you don't mind me saying.
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Is it?
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Yeah, you know, I don't know, it's just what I was interested in.
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Um I was always working in the arts and I I didn't do much maths at high school, so I actually went back to do business so I could do the arts.
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Okay.
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Um and it served me very well.
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Yeah.
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But um I mean, look, you I think it's pretty dark out there.
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There's a lot going on in the world that we live in right now.
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And I I came to this practice really because I, you know, the the antidote to despair is action.
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And, you know, I felt like I had to do something, and and this is what I've ended up doing.
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Okay, so you have this background in business, you've become an artist.
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Why did you decide to work with well, I was gonna say seaweed, but we met yesterday and you pulled me up on it.
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So it's not seaweeds, it's algae.
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It fits into the conceptual frame, and this is where the kind of artwork comes in.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:12.720
Because I think when you're when you're dealing with working as an artist, you get to have this luxurious amount of time to think about things and to really put a a frame around the concepts and a frame around the information that you're thinking through.
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:21.519
And so the the artistic research project started thinking about yes, a post-pectrochemical world, because we've done a lot of plastic.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:30.000
Plastic has has really impacted our world in a way that no other material has, and in a very, very short amount of time, if you look at a historical scale.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:34.240
And so I started looking into, I like to break things down, by the way.
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.160
So, you know, if you're thinking about something, you go, like, okay, what's the historical frame?
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.240
What's the like what's the material made of?
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.119
What's that history?
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.240
How did we start making it?
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.519
Where did it come from?
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:52.799
And uh, when you get to petroleum plastics or petroleum-based plastics, you get to petroleum oil, which we often refer to as a fossil fuel.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.119
The fossils in that are mainly microalgae.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:01.200
And the reason for that is that that's really all that existed on Earth at that time.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.519
Like that is how old that resource is.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:07.599
It predates most life on Earth.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:13.119
And I found that just so remarkable and such um an incredible thing.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.039
You know, you won't look at a piece of plastic in that same way when you know that.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.000
You're like, I'm looking at something that predates dinosaurs.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.279
Dinosaurs are old.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.480
This is way older.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:24.960
And um, and we're using it for a whole bunch of things.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:44.079
So it really started with this idea, and so algae is a term that encapsulates both macro algae, which are your seaweeds that you find, you know, on the beach and you can see, and microalgaes, which are far more ancient, uh, predate a lot more things, and um and you can't really see them with your naked eye.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.400
Am I right in thinking that it this all started with beekeeping initially?
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:50.640
I yes, I have done beekeeping.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.119
It didn't start with beekeeping, but I did do beekeeping.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:53.759
Yes, yeah.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.559
So you move from beekeeping into where you are now?
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.160
I'm a very curious person.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.839
But you know, I think um I think it comes from systems.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.680
I think I'm interested in systems.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.000
Bees are a very, very interesting system.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.279
But there was a moment.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.920
I'm I'm gonna press you about about algae.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:12.240
Yeah.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.799
You're on a residency in Morocco.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.839
Was there this Eureka damazine moment where you went, okay, no, this is what I need to be doing?
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:21.440
Yeah, it was a little bit before that.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.400
Um the Morocco thing had another quite fortuitous linking up of ideas.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:45.599
But um thinking about this very, very ancient algae that has been compressed with heat and pressure over hundreds of millions of years, if not billions, uh, I started to think about, you know, what we could be doing with a regenerative algae, with an algae that was maybe grown today, able to be regrown.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.759
And that cycle continued in a way that is actually sustainable.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.839
Um, and you know, that there's been this movement of I guess biomaterials.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:02.000
I don't really like to speak about it too much because the term's been really overused and it has a a lot of Acetic and functional baggage around it.
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:03.440
Like such as.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.359
I think we don't even need to mention it.
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.960
You know what we're talking about when we say something.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:08.480
I do, but maybe other people don't.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:13.039
There's a certain aesthetic that comes to mind when you mention a biomaterial.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:18.400
And there's a certain worry or anxiety about the durability and the performance of the material.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:20.559
And I think that's just because it's an early thing.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.400
But like timber is a biomaterial.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:23.279
It is, yeah.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:24.000
Yeah.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:27.119
So I think we've got to get past that.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.559
We've got to be a bit more mature about it.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.000
And same with sustainability.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:38.960
But so I was thinking about these, you know, what we could do with an algae that was more recent and much more regenerative.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.920
And I started, you know, messing around with these recipes.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:49.599
Um, and I I'm quite a focused person and I got quite uh obsessed with it.
00:22:49.680 --> 00:23:05.039
And the history of science really came into this because when you read the history of science and you read about how people actually got to these discoveries that we use every day, the amount of work, the amount of trial and error surpasses anyone's idea of what is reasonable.
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:17.599
And so that really, I think, gave me the um I guess unhealthy uh level of persistence in just like trialing and trialing and trialing and researching and working it out.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.119
There's a quote of yours I found that I I rather like.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.279
You described this period in history as a time of unlearning.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:26.000
Oh yeah.
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:27.759
What did you mean by that?
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:39.519
Well, um we've only been doing this kind of troubling stuff that we've got to work our way out of for a you know a couple of hundred years.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.920
And when you look at the scale of human history, that is nothing.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:45.039
That's nothing.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:24:00.160
So I think you know, we've been in this linear economy of using materials and then thinking about how we're gonna basically put them in the ground again, um, or you know, get rid of them, put them in a bin, put them in a compost, put them in whatever.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:05.920
That's been a linear economy for maybe the last 200, 300 years.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:12.319
Uh, but before that, we would use something and then we'd work out how to reuse it because it was valuable.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.240
Um, and so that's what I'm talking about.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:29.359
You know, it's just been this period of kind of it's been an economic system, it's been, you know, trying to build up a capitalist system which has come with so much um incredible sharing of wealth.
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.759
You know, we have so many people in the world and a lot of them have a very good quality of life.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:34.880
A lot of them don't.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:39.519
But on the whole, when you look at the history of what we were doing before then, it's been amazing.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:43.039
But there's some things that we've lost in the process, and that's what I'm talking about.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.880
We're kind of coming back to being like, oh yeah, you know, these things aren't new.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.839
Biomaterials are not new, sustainability is not new.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.599
It's just become this kind of marketing catchphrase, but we're learning it again.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:54.079
Yeah.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.119
What are the benefits of working with algae?
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.119
Um, well, for me, it was this conceptual link.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:06.400
Um, and then, you know, the material was really I worked out how to use it quite well.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:11.599
Um, you know, it worked out how to get it to look exactly like like vinyl and like plastic.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:25.440
And since then, that was a jumping off point into just thinking about how to break down that system and work our way back into where we needed to be in that circularity and you know, how we can use these materials in a way that that works a little better.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:27.920
And so how do you go about making?
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.559
I I mean, I don't know if uh trade secrets, but how do you go about making the material?
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.759
What's your your process?
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.720
Because you've described it already as a bit like cooking.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.079
You've you've in the past compared it to creating chicken stock.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.279
Yes, yeah.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:41.759
Yeah.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:56.880
So the um the soup analogy is really talking about the um the extraction of um an extract from algae because some people kind of come to the material, especially when it's colored beautiful green, like it is in this uh in this installation, they'll kind of be like, oh, is it seaweed?
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:57.839
And it's like, no, no, no.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.759
We're using an extract from seaweed.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:04.319
Um, it's as much algae as uh paper is wood, for example.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:06.160
Is it readily available, Jesse?
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:08.640
This is less infinite supplies.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:15.279
There are some uh materials that as they scale, they have um a supply consideration with their feedstock.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:21.440
The base materials that we use that we that we don't, you know, they're our secret herbs and spices, but they're very readily available.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.839
Um they're all technically edible.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.880
Our materials are not edible because we don't operate a food safe, but that's how non-toxic they are.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.400
Um and so they, yeah, that's what we're using.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:34.000
We're using an extract from algae.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680
And the way that that is extracted is similar to cooking a chicken stock.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:47.039
It's kind of the the biomass or the seaweed goes in, water goes in, it's boiled, the seaweed mass is taken out, and then it continues to be boiled down.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:48.319
And we use that extract.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:48.880
Okay.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.599
And when you use that extract, what do you use it for?
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.920
Because initially it was for art-based projects, but that's that's obviously changed and developed.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.039
Well, the art-based projects, I was making my own material.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:01.279
So we're still here making materials.
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:06.000
And um, the practice that we have now is really still the art practice.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.759
It's just that I think we we don't have time to just make art in this time right now.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.079
So this is still very much the art practice.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:15.759
It's just the you know, the walk in the walk.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:21.680
And the fascinating thing about working with a a new material as as you are is is the research and development, I guess.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.400
I mean, can we know how it's gonna age, for example?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:27.279
Yeah, look, we we work with CSIRO.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:32.640
Um CSIRO are Australia's federal, uh federal government science agency.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.759
They are incredible scientists in every area of science.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.680
They invented Wi-Fi and a lot of other things.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:43.599
Um but yeah, we we work with them.
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:49.200
Um they gave us a very nice award uh in 2024, which is definitely named by scientists.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:55.279
It was the award for the most promising advancement in achieving the ending plastic waste mission goal.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:56.880
Um rolls off the top.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.079
Just rolls off the table.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:02.240
Definitely no branding people involved in that one.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:12.400
Um but it's such a clunky name because it actually links in with the UN the obligations that Australia has as a country and that every country has under the UN.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.400
So, you know, we we've been working with them for a couple of years.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.599
I'm not a scientist.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.960
I'm uh did hil history and philosophy of science, which I am definitely not a scientist, you know.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:29.200
Um, but we work with scientists and we work with conservators quite a bit, and we work with conservation scientists.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:34.799
So we bring in the people that can actually answer these questions, and we have since the very, very beginning.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.599
Um because they know their stuff.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:44.960
So um the question of how long something is gonna last is a long and complicated question to answer.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.200
Because when we make it in this color, that needs a particular test.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.920
And when we make it in this thickness, it needs a particular test.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.319
And if we change the colour or change the thickness, it needs a whole different testing regime.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.640
Because when you're doing science, it needs to be like it's very, very structured.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.960
Um, but we do have quite a few answers.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.200
We've done um a range of different testing.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.359
Um, and then we also have our anecdotal tests.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:15.599
Like we've had the material around for you know going on seven years with uh changes that we you know have recorded and and we know about.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.000
When you're doing what you do, which is breaking new ground, do you have a mentor?
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:21.440
Do you have somebody you can turn to?
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.759
So many, yeah, absolutely.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:29.599
I mean, I think there's there's a lot of different people that we have come across.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.039
And like I said before, like these things in the world, they're not new.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:42.240
You know, it is, yes, we have a patent and it's you know bringing something new into the world, but there's there's templates for all of the different components.
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:53.200
You know, people have done scientific development before, people have done manufacturing scaling before, people have done you know production of vinyls before, people have done recycling systems before.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:55.680
Um, there's just a lot of them that we're fitting in.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.680
So yeah, we we speak to a lot of people.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:06.880
We have a lot of really generous advice, um, scientists, conservation scientists, people in manufacturing, other designers, other artists, curators.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:13.440
Yeah, it's incredibly um, you know, we're we're so grateful for all of the the help and advice we've had over the years.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:21.519
Doing a a bit of research on you, something I was intrigued by is it seems that your practice has changed with your various studio moves.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:22.160
Oh, yeah.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:23.119
Would that be true?
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.759
I mean, the the the size and scale of your studio has affected the sort of work you do.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:29.440
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.400
Absolutely.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:34.640
I mean, the first studio was really um during COVID.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:38.160
So it was kind of my house because that's where we could be in Melbourne.
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:40.400
You weren't allowed to leave the house.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.880
Um and yeah, then I moved into a little space in the city of Melbourne.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:49.920
Um the council gave me a retail shopfront that had been emptied during COVID.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:55.599
Um, and I had somewhat of an open studio there because it was just a retail store and I was making in there.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:04.640
Um and then I moved to there was some developers that were had a building they were activating, and they gave me a beautiful space um for a couple of years.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.400
And then I had to leave there and now I have a bit of a warehouse.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.559
And so yeah, we've we've grown the team.
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:16.960
And also grown with Esop has been kind of along for that ride as well, and have supported us along the way to scale.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:18.799
And you've developed these decals.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:19.279
Yeah.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:22.079
Which is like what an architectural film, I think.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:23.599
Yeah, a signage film.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:25.759
The thing you'll see, like cut-out text.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:28.400
You once you realize it, you'll see it everywhere.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.160
And so how did that develop?
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:44.000
That came as a way of it was my own selfish need because um when you're talking about the types of plastics that there are in the world, um, I I was becoming more and more aware of this as part of that whole research project.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:54.480
Um and I was having exhibitions that were in my practice, which we've already talked about, so everyone kind of knows that it was materially um intimate and and critical.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:04.400
And the material that most signage film is made of is a particularly not great type of material.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.160
So it's PVC, but it's a phthalate-heavy PVC.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:16.480
Um phthalates are a group of chemicals that are used as a plasticizer to make materials softer and more flexible.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:26.319
And um there's a lot of different types of phthalates, but a vast number of them are listed uh as a substance of very high concern under the EU.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:35.440
And there's regulation over the next couple of years that will mean that there can be less than 1% of these materials in any material, these substances in any material.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:42.160
Um traditional PVC signage film is 20 to 50% phthalate by weight.
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.039
So sometimes as much phthalate as PVC in the material.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.559
And phthalates are being regulated because they have um negative impacts on human health.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:52.880
Right.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:57.839
And they've been really substantially and strongly linked to falling fertility rates in humans.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.279
And we've known this for quite a while.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.519
Um, you know, science, the world of knowledge, has known this for a long time.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.680
So, you know, it it's this is the first time we've actually done anything in Europe.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.559
And it's amazing because Europe is so far ahead of the curve.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.960
And Aesop's also so far ahead of the curve.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.640
Um, so I started, you know, making the signage for my own artwork.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.119
Okay.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:23.200
Because when you know this about that material, it it doesn't really make sense.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.400
It doesn't make sense to have this being the actual material that describes your work to the public who are coming to see your work.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:35.039
So my artwork was already kind of similar.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:45.119
It was these I was making these very big hangings of a thin film that was telling the story about this fossil fuel deep time ancestry.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.279
Um, and so it was already in this form that was quite vinyl-like.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.359
And I took it to some vinyl cutters and said, Hey, could you just cut my signage?
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.960
And we did one little test.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:05.359
I had it on my studio window, and Esop's VM team in Melbourne, um, Luke Mortimer and Callan Hurley were coming to my studio to commission artwork.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:12.239
They were coming to have a look, and then we finished this artwork studio visit, and they looked at this text and were like, what's that?
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.159
And the rest is history.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.480
So that's how the relationship began.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:17.760
It did, yeah, yeah.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.000
You know, so it's it's very, very fortuitous.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:27.519
There's been a lot of um critical points in this practice that, you know, just wouldn't have happened, like stars really aligned.
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:31.039
Um and so they went back and and really changed that whole campaign.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.679
It was a campaign for the BCC serum.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.360
Uh, and that campaign happened in early 2024.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.760
And they ended up changing the whole campaign.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:51.280
So we we used the artwork and then we made extra material and cut it out into the jar shapes, the silhouettes, and we did it in I think 29 stores around Australia and New Zealand.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:55.920
And that job enabled me to file a patent, which we now have granted.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.199
So I was gonna ask, so it's been two years, and what have ESOP done with Jesse during that period of time?
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:10.159
Well, as Jesse said, it started um with Callum and Luke and the coming to the studio, and we used it first in Australia.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:14.000
And then the partnership has just evolved.
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.519
So we've used it in, I think is it eight countries now?
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:18.559
Eight countries now.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:28.159
Eight countries over 80 different stores, and the kind of intention each time and as we move forward is to look at how do we start to build up scale.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:36:00.000
So what Jesse is doing is incredible, but Jesse and a small team, if we were going to scale that material to be able to use it in more stores on global campaigns, so it's really working with Jesse and the team to see about what are the possibilities to do that, like what's the system around making that possible, and then how can ESOP um play a part in changing that system or you know, doing what we can to support the scale journey?
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:14.239
And I think it's just it's it just gives this incredible like touch point with our customers to be able to like actually talk about materials and talk about like what we use every day and don't even think about the impacts of.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.920
Um and Jesse just brings that that conversation.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.039
So it's incredible.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.679
Do you have a kind of a garrison of designers doing the kind of work that Jesse's doing?
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.920
Are you constantly on the lookout for people doing this kind of work?
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:32.800
I think like we have a history of working with local artisans, local makers.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:43.519
Like our approach to VM has over the course of Aesop always been about trying to find like people who are using materials in interesting ways.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:57.519
Like there's some great stories of in our stores, like where we like for Cambridge, for example, if you think about the fens, we worked with like an incredible artisan making like materials from the reeds that are in the Cambridge Fens.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:02.159
So like we're always kind of looking for people doing interesting things with materials.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:09.599
And I think it's just that the material that Jesse is working with is a material that ASOP uses all the time.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:20.559
Um, and so that's where there's like a really interesting possibility because it's one of our most commonly used materials because our stores are built to last and they kind of endure.
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:29.920
The thing that changes in our stores is the windows, because that's where we're communicating with the customer about what's changing inside in terms of the product, what we want to spotlight.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:39.280
And so it's really about like, okay, so let's take the philosophy that we've used of how we design the store and use that same philosophy to what we're doing in our windows.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.039
So trying to have lower impact, trying to find more circular solutions that we can reuse.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.119
Um, that's the kind of intention behind it.
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.679
And these decals, can they be unpeeled and reused?
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:51.039
Is that the Yeah, yeah.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:52.000
That's quite cool.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:56.239
So we're sitting in this KPG store, and I I'm not going to try and pronounce the name.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.039
Um Danish word, live for my error.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.400
But you know, we've we're looking out onto the front window, and it it's got, you know, this kind of full coverage.
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:12.159
Well, it's, you know, it started the install with the full coverage, and it's got these tiny little silhouettes of the parsley seed tube.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.320
And so customers can come and peel it off.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:21.119
The other remarkable thing um about this material is that we don't need adhesive to stick it to the glass.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.480
So we just use water.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.119
Really?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:23.760
Yeah.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:29.920
So it's um it's hydrophilic material, so it it absorbs a little bit of water and gets a little bit kind of tacky and soft.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:40.320
And then if you've ever installed vinyl, um, for those of you haven't, you kind of just use the squidgy thing or a credit card or something to smooth it out and get all the water and air bubbles out.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.519
And that process stretches it out on the on the glass.
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:48.480
And then as it dries, um, if you think about paper drying, it kind of dries with a crinkle.
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:51.760
Um, that crinkles to do with contraction of the material.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:58.159
But our material, when it's stuck to the glass, it essentially contracts onto the glass and forms a mechanical stick.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.760
So when you peel it off, it's not sticky, it's completely dry.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.639
And that uh is given to customers as a beautiful gesture to think about it.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.199
They can put it on their glass or their mirror at home.
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:15.519
And we've done this activation, this type of activation at Melbourne Design Week last year, and then we did it at Singapore Design Week.
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:21.840
And I still walk into meetings where people tell me, I've got that little, I've got that shape on my bathroom mirror.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:22.960
So yeah, but it's nice.
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.039
People take it home, they can touch and feel and and take take it with them.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:35.280
But it also means that for like campaign graphics, you can have a kit of parts that you then just move around so you're not making new stuff all the time.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:36.559
And we've done installations like that.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.280
Interesting.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.039
And scent is becoming an increasingly important element in what you do.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:42.880
Yeah, yeah, you can put scent in it.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.800
How long does that scent remain?
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.719
Well, scent is always, you know, that's why you have it in a sealed glass bottle.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:54.719
So as soon as scent is out in the world, as soon as it's smellable, it's it's kind of it's running away from us.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:04.800
Um, but we did make some scented curtains for Aesop last year, and they lasted, they they were clove scented with clove essential oil.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.320
And they lasted a long time.
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:11.440
We've still got some sheets in the studio, and when we open them up, we're like, oh, yep, clove.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:11.679
Yeah.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.559
And on a more macro level, are there plans for you, Aesop and Jesse, to work together in the future?
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.400
Do you have anything you can talk about?
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:19.599
We do have plans.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.119
I can't say too much about them.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.079
Oh, you you can.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:22.800
It's fine.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:23.519
No, nobody.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:24.719
It's just you and A.
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:28.719
There might be an other matter collaboration in in the works.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:35.199
I would tease it to say something that's been long awaited for Aesop and that we have been in the background testing and learning around.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:35.760
Yeah.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.199
There might be an other matter collaboration in in the works there.
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:40.320
Jesse, how about you?
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:41.679
What's what's the future holding for you?
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.559
Well, we haven't even finished talking about what we're doing in this story.
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:45.760
Fair enough, fair enough.
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:47.360
Let's let's do that.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:59.840
Um so with this campaign up here, you know, I think the other story that we have in here, not only is it a kind of new material that can be recycled and um and peeled off and not use adhesive.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.480
So behind you, there's some images of a chair.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:23.519
And it looks like it's upholstered in leather, but it's upholstered in the material that we make from reprocessing all of our studio offcuts and the offcuts of the vinyl and the uh the installation here, when we're finished with it, that will come back and go back into its pot from what it was first made.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:32.079
Uh, we add only charcoal because when you're dealing with offcuts from lots of different jobs and projects, you get a very weird color.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.119
Um, and we wanted this to be a system that we can use in our studio.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:38.880
So this is our reprocessing system, and it's a whole system redesign.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:43.920
So we add charcoal, it makes everything black and it gives it a beautiful texture.
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:58.559
And the thing that we're most happy about out of this is that we've kind of solved the system's issue with recycling because plastic recycling does happen, but it was an afterthought.
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:11.119
So it was kind of invented um in the kind of 90s, 80s when plastics were already away out there in the world at scale and um they started to have some regulation.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:12.800
So recycling came in then.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:17.360
Less than 10% of petrochemical plastics that have ever been made have been recycled.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:22.960
And the problem is that you go through this process of collecting and reprocessing.
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.920
There's a lot of energy that goes into that, that reprocessing of petrochemical plastics, very high heat.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:38.800
And then you get a product that is less good and able to be sold for less than the original virgin plastic, which makes it quite hard to make it work.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:42.480
So we designed this system in mind from the very start.
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:52.719
So our material gets reprocessed into this upholstery grade material that is leather-like, and we can sell that for then more.
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:53.360
Okay.
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.159
And so, yeah, it the system actually works on a next one.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:57.119
Yeah, no, it's so interesting.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:05.280
So this window display in this eSOP store that we sat in in the middle of Copenhagen, that will get turned into a lever alternative when it's finished.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:12.719
And sitting behind us are all of the off-cuts, because the other store has cutout text, which I'm holding the, you know, cutout text is always cut out of a sheet.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.360
And that's the other unseen waste.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:21.599
You know, we see these beautiful letters, but they're the bulk of the what they were cut out of is actually the bulk of the waste.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:31.199
Um there is the amount of signage film that's produced per year by the world is enough to blanket Copenhagen 2,500 times.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:49.119
Um, and you know, in the time that we've been working together in that two years, with one person, mainly me, on production in a very handmade artisanal process that is yet to industrially scale, we've just placed more than one ton of signage film and more than 188 kilos of phthalates.
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.920
So, you know, we're we're making that impact.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:00.320
But the thing I'm most excited about is this leather because we're creating, you know, what doesn't need to sit in a special category of being a biomaterial or anything.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.239
You just, I don't like to introduce it like that.
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.639
You just show people the material and it speaks for itself.
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:06.239
It's a beautiful material.
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.440
And now we're getting into the hands of other designers.
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.239
So the chair is a made-by-morgan chair.
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:18.880
They're a Melbourne-based furniture maker and designer, and they make they handmake beautiful, beautiful furniture in Melbourne.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:30.559
And so they had this existing chair uh seating range, and that was previously upholstered in either a paper cord or um or a beautiful hide, thick leather hide.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:36.559
And so they've just re-upholstered it, you know, we've done a version of all of their seating in that range.
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:42.559
And we've we've got the stool and the dining chair here in Copenhagen, and it's upholstered in our leather.
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.119
So this is your present and your future by the sound of it.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:56.239
And you know, I think yes, they're materials, but I think what's most exciting is it's the system that works, you know, and and I think that's where we needed to roll back to and go, hang on, what's working in this system?
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.559
It all comes down to system design in the end.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.599
I think, Jesse, Rebecca, that's a lovely place to leave it.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:03.119
Thank you both so much for your time.
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.000
And we've got a day left of three days of design.
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.800
Go out into Copenhagen and see lots of good work.
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:09.679
I hope you have a great day.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.079
Lovely.
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:11.280
Thanks so much, Gwen.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:11.840
Thank you.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:12.880
Thank you.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:19.280
My huge thanks go to Rebecca and Jesse, as well as Esop for sponsoring this intriguing conversation.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:24.400
You can find out more about its hair, skin, and body care products at esop.com.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.639
Meanwhile, to discover more about Jesse, go to other matter.com.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:36.960
You can also go to our website, to other podcasts that I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to find out all about the various events we'll be running in 2026.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:44.800
One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:53.599
For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.519
Material Matters is a completely independent concern, and any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:06.639
Ultimately, you'll be helping to take the message, the importance of materials, skill, craft, and design to a whole new audience.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.320
Thanks very much for listening.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.960
We're going to take a short summer break, but we'll be back with you by the end of August.
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:15.759
Hello and welcome to a summer bonus episode of Material Matters with Grant Gibson.
00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:21.440
In association with Esop, I'm recorded in store during the Three Days of Design Festival in Copenhagen.
00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:30.640
This is a podcast where I speak to a designer, maker, artist, or architect about a material or technique with which they are intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their life and career.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:35.200
Think of it as a bit like Desert Island discs but with materials instead of music.
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:55.759
Today I'm delighted to be joined by Rebecca Lawson, Aesop's head of sustainability, and the multi-award-winning artist and designer Jesse French, founder of Melbourne-based design studio Other Matter, which has built a global reputation through its work with algae-driven polymers.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:05.359
We're going to be chatting about Aesop's philosophy on sustainability and circular design, and Jessie's history with her material of choice, as well as the work the pair have done together.
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.959
Rebecca, Jesse, lovely to see you both.
00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:09.519
How are you?
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:10.879
Lovely to be here.
00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:11.359
I'm great.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:12.000
Oh good.
00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:13.120
Beautiful to be here.
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:15.840
So look, it's Friday morning.
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.840
Uh we're on day three of three days of design, the final day.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:20.879
How has it been for you?
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:22.319
What have you been up to, Jesse?
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:24.319
Oh God, it's been super busy.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:26.719
It's, you know, three days is a real sprint.
00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:31.599
Um we've been here, we've done beautiful events uh here in this store, actually.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:38.560
Uh, and then I'm part of another exhibition, which is actually where you see what we do with the signage after it's been here.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:43.840
So being darting between these two things and then darting to things uh in between on bikes.
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:44.959
It's it's been gorgeous.
00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:46.239
Very good, Rebecca.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:50.239
Um yeah, this is my second three days of design, but my first was Aesop.
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:55.040
So it's been amazing to be in both this store and another in Nijhaven.
00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.719
We've had events with Jesse, we've had events with customers.
00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:09.199
Um, yeah, and just to feel like the buzz in the city, it's been like really energizing and yeah, trying to find some time before we leave to go and take in some of the events for myself.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:10.479
Very good, very good.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.479
So we have a long tradition on this podcast of asking guests to kind of describe their location.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:22.000
I mean it gives listeners a sense of place and perhaps provides a glimpse into how the guest thinks.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:26.479
I mean, obviously, this episode is slightly different, I guess, but tradition prevails.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.560
Rebecca, can you maybe describe the store where we are for us?
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:31.360
Yes.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:38.400
So we're on, and excuse my non-um good Danish pronunciation, but Komprints Garda.
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:50.080
Um and we're in Aesop store that was designed um and reference to the Louisiana Um Museum, a very famous Danish art museum.
00:02:50.159 --> 00:03:03.919
So when our store designers were thinking about the references for this store, they took a train 30 minutes outside of Copenhagen, and they just loved the way that materiality had been used in Louisiana.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.080
So it's lots of brick surfaces.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:07.759
I was gonna say it is very bricky.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:16.800
Yes, if you could see us now, we're surrounded by bricks and the kind of combination of brick and timber and the kind of views and the reverence that that created for art.
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:23.680
And they wanted to bring a little bit of that same reverence for Aesop products into the way that they designed this space.
00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:32.159
So they've used the same um sort of reddy brown traditional Copenhagen bricks made by a local mason.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:44.080
So if you can imagine, we're kind of sitting in a the middle of a spiral of brickwork, um, and we have the kind of warm wood on the ceiling and on the shelves that is that nod to Louisiana.
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.240
Because obviously you're a global brand, but every store has a kind of local feel.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.280
Yes, that's right.
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.759
There's no one Aesop store that's the same.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.400
Each one of them is designed completely uniquely.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:01.840
Um, and the intention has always been to weave it into the local neighborhood, not to impose a store, but to take the cues from what's around us.
00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:02.479
Very good.
00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.439
And Jesse, you're a long way from home.
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:08.639
So maybe you can describe what your studio looks like.
00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:09.599
And how do you work?
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:11.120
Give listeners a bit of a sense.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:22.560
When you get to our studio, uh we've got these beautiful Japanese doors that you go in, you go kind of under a roller door through these Japanese doors, and then we've got a bit of a welcome area.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:26.800
There's like a showroom-ish part of all of our past work.
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:34.800
And then we've got a big workspace because everything in the warehouse is on wheels, so we change up the configuration depending on what the project is.
00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:35.600
That's interesting.
00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:36.720
It's pretty nice.
00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:44.480
But one thing that is really notable when you come to our space is that it looks a lot more like a kitchen than anything else.
00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.959
So there's a huge wall of big stockpots, and that's what we cook in.
00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.079
And it's it's much more a cooking practice than anything else.
00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:57.920
Rebecca, I'm gonna return to you because I think we need to place Aesop's philosophy a little bit.
00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:59.439
The company was Australian.
00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:00.000
Yes.
00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:01.279
Melbourne founded.
00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.360
Acquired by L'Oreal in 23.
00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:13.199
I mean, can you talk a little bit about the philosophy behind the brand?
00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:13.920
Yes.
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:16.639
So it's been an amazing trajectory for Aesop.
00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.240
So the roots of the brand were in Melbourne in 1987.
00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:34.319
Dennis was a hairdresser and developed um products of his own using essential oils and really like worked from the philosophy of he wanted products that were purposeful.
00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.639
It was always about the purpose.
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:47.279
Um, and he applied that philosophy both to the formulations, the way that he used essential oils, which at the time was very unique, um, and also his approach to packaging.
00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:51.759
So we talk about it as the kind of like essentialist um philosophy.
00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:59.040
So nothing superfluous, nothing that doesn't have a utilitarian kind of intent behind it.
00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:05.279
So you wouldn't see lots of outer packaging on an ASOP product, you won't see cellophane.
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:13.680
So things that probably now are thought about as sustainability were just in the brand's DNA from the very beginning.
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:19.439
Um, and it wasn't actually until 2004 that they had their first store.
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:23.360
So there was a bit of time just kind of like building up the brand.
00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.519
And that first store was in St Kilda, again in Melbourne.
00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:38.879
Um, and it was really unconventional at the time because it was in an underground car park, um, in a kind of really kind of long, narrow, kind of sloping store.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:43.600
And people at the time, I think, thought, what on earth are they doing?
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:50.160
And I think that that's the kind of the other element of eSop is this kind of like non-conformist uh philosophy.
00:06:50.319 --> 00:07:09.600
Um, and it that's where the kind of store design philosophy really began of not going in, putting in all new materials, but actually looking at what's there and thinking about like what does that give to a space, and then trying to work from those references.
00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:30.240
Um, and that has endured now over 400 signature stores globally in so many different markets around the world, but still that same non-conformist kind of mindset and that attention to what is local, what matters, what is part of the neighborhood.
00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.879
You're B Corps certified as well.
00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:33.360
Yes.
00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:34.560
What does that entail?
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:52.720
So we became a B Corp in 2020, and the way that we kind of think about B Corp is that the heritage and the values of the brand were there and were what were informing what we did in a kind of sustainable way, in the way that we interacted in our communities long before 2020.
00:07:52.959 --> 00:08:05.199
But being able to become a B Corp gave us that structure to ensure that we were driving ourselves always onwards, like as we have grown, as we have become more global, as things have become more complicated.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:15.279
B Corp kind of provided that framework for us to really ensure that we were holding ourselves to account, that we're able to see like where we need to progress to drive that improvement.
00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:22.959
And again, it's like a proof point to say to customers like this is not just us making up, you know, we're sustainable.
00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:32.799
It's this set of standards, environmental, social, and the way that we run our company, that again have been looked at rigorously by a third-party body.
00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:41.519
Um, and when you see the B Court mark, you know that that intent, that commitment, um, and that commitment to transparency as well sits there.
00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:43.600
Were there areas you needed to address?
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.200
Yes, I I think any business, a very complicated business.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:52.799
You know, not everything is always going to be like absolutely from day one.
00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:08.720
Um, you know, I always think of sustainability as an ever-evolving journey, um, ever requiring improvement, especially as the kind of context around us changes with things like climate change and the kind of impacts that we're seeing on nature.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:14.159
So we have to be agile and um make sure that we're improving across those areas.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:30.639
So, for example, like when we were first a business back in like 2000, we wouldn't have um calculated our carbon footprint and we wouldn't have understood necessarily in the same detail that we do now what is our impact on climate change, how does climate change impact us?
00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:42.240
Whereas over time now we calculate our carbon footprint every year, we've got um a climate action plan that looks at where our hotspots are, we understand like the actions that we can take as a business.
00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.600
So I think it's just like that ever-evolving maturity.
00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:54.320
I mean, I'm interested because we're sitting here with Jesse, who has created a kind of bioplastic from algae, but you use plastic bottles.
00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:55.200
Why?
00:09:55.600 --> 00:10:05.279
I think that when we think about plastic in our business, again, it's an intentional decision that has been taken with a number of different factors in mind.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:13.679
So because our formulations are high in essential oils, it doesn't necessarily interact with all packaging materials well.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.799
You have to choose a packaging material that works with our kind of formulations.
00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:24.559
Um, we think about also like the weight of our packaging when we're shipping it around the world.
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.039
So if we were to choose a heavier material, that generates more carbon.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.240
Um, we think about like how we protect our formulations.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:39.679
So the fact that it is this amber tinted plastic means that that stops the kind of sun interacting with it in the same way.
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:41.759
So there's lots of different considerations.
00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:46.720
And we look at it across the life cycle of a material.
00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:56.639
So, you know, there may be a day in which you could develop new materials that would be substitutes for the plastic that we use today.
00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:00.720
Um, but we have to continue to kind of explore those.
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:07.360
And we're looking at now ways like how can we keep bottles so that customers can reuse them through things like refill.
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.600
Well, yes, I was going to ask you about that and and about circularity and what that means to the brand.
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.960
Because you have a rinse and return scheme, for instance.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:15.840
Is that under trial?
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:16.799
Is that been rolled out?
00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:20.960
Uh rinse and return is something that we've had for a number of years.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:22.960
Uh, it started in Asian markets.
00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:28.399
The idea behind the scheme is it's providing um a simple packaging take back service.
00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:34.000
We know that recycling systems vary a lot across worlds, across markets.
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:38.320
And even where something is collected for recycling, it doesn't always get recycled.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.840
You sometimes have like some components that are harder to recycle than others.
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:47.600
So the intention behind rinse and return is to take responsibility, provide that service.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.879
So it's really easy for a customer if they want to to just bring it back to us.
00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.919
Then we work with specialist partners to ensure it gets recycled wherever possible.
00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.399
Um, and that's something now that by the end of 2026 we will have globally.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:00.960
Okay.
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.200
And I was reading your sustainability report before I came out to Copenhagen.
00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:06.559
Good student grant.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:10.879
I thought I'd better do it before I come out to Copenhagen because it's been quite frantic.
00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:20.240
Uh you have a tool called Artemis, which measures, analyzes, and sometimes addresses uh your store's use of materials, energy, and water.
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:21.600
I'm wondering how that works.
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.519
Artemis is a scorecard that we developed.
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:31.600
So, you know, I was talking about the philosophy that each of our stores is unique, each of our stores is different.
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:43.039
Because we've got a lot more stores than we had before, we also want to make sure that when we're making those material choices, making local choices is good, using what's there is good.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:52.399
But we also wanted to add that like extra layer of understanding for our architects and designers of the impact of the different material choices that women are making.
00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.840
So each one of our stores that's designed, the designers use this tool, Artemis.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:07.519
They can put in the exact material choices they're making, the exact weights, they can put information about where it's being sourced from, where it's being transported from.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:12.240
And then that means that we can essentially carbon footprint each one of our store designs.
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:12.799
Right.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:24.159
And then we've used that to try and now share that information with our designers so that each year they see at the end of the year, this is the portfolio of stores that we designed.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.639
These were the average scores of the stores.
00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:32.399
And it sort of like encourages a little bit of healthy competition to you're creating a sustainable market.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:32.720
Yeah.
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.320
To have that that best that best score.
00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:45.120
And you know, not every store will be like the lowest footprint, but across the portfolio, it means that we're able to continue driving down um the carbon association.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:49.840
So Artemis is for new stores, or you you can retrofit Artemis into stores you've already existed.
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:51.840
We use it on each new store design.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:59.120
I think like our intention is where we've already got a store, we've already used the materials that that that has been done.
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:06.799
And what we try and do with our stores is make sure that they endure so that we're not changing the interior of our stores like they have like a long life cycle.
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:16.399
And then what we do, Artemis doesn't um Artemis is mainly about the design of the store, but then we're working on a program of improvements across how the stores are operated.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:29.039
So Raphael, our amazing um sustainable um store design lead, um, looks at things like our HVAC systems, like how we use awnings to like manage sun.
00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:39.679
We have like behavior guidelines for the staff in terms of like how to operate the store in terms of lighting, heating, cooling, um, to optimize them for energy and water consumption.
00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:49.759
All of which means, I'm guessing, Jesse, as someone who's engaging with a kind of post-petrochemical world, that this is a brand you're happy to work with.
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:50.879
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:51.039 --> 00:15:06.320
And I think, you know, when you're talking before about uh plastics bottles and, you know, kind of like hinting at me that I make a bioplastic, you know, I think um it's important to kind of think about the fact that when you're talking about petrochemical plastics, you're talking about hundreds and thousands of different types of material.
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:11.360
And they all have different considerations and pros.
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:18.720
And, you know, the fact that petrochemical plastic is everywhere is is testament to the fact that it's actually an incredible material.
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.519
Um and I am not absolutist in the way that I'm dealing with it.
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.200
You know, I'm not I'm not anti-plastic.
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:31.440
There are definitely like a shipping consideration where where plastic actually comes out better on a carbon metric.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:43.120
And I think that's the complexity of of dealing with all of these issues is you have, you know, chemical toxicity, you have carbon to think about, you have uh choice of material, and and they're complex choices to make.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:43.360
Yeah.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.879
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with plastic, it's the way that we use it is is the issue.
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.159
Aaron Powell I think about uh you know being considered about when we use it.
00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:55.679
I mean we use plastic plastic in our studio, you know, it's impossible uh to avoid plastic.
00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:08.960
Um but it's just about being considered about yes, the afterlife, how can it be used, when is it being used, which plastic is being used, and what else could we be using and thinking about the uh the considerations of what else could be there?
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.639
So I'm intrigued by your work and and the people you work with.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.279
I mean we hear a lot about greenwashing obviously nowadays.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:20.320
Do you find yourself turning projects down because you suspect the client has the wrong intentions?
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:31.679
Aaron Powell We have really beautiful projects um and and we're very lucky that the the clients that come to us and the projects we work on are just naturally a very good fit.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.799
Um you know, the story of our work with ESOP is has been a really, really beautiful one.
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:51.759
And the more that we do with them and the more types of projects we work on, because we've worked on everything from you know store campaigns to these design week activations to permanent store interior parts of the interior.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:59.279
And uh, you know, we meet different teams and we learn more about how considered the choices are, and it it's hard to do it on a small scale.
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:11.119
It's even harder by huge quantum to do it on the scale of uh you know 470 stores around the world, uh, you know, huge masses of people in those organizations.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.559
And that is something that I think is is really impressive.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:15.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.839
Well, we're gonna talk about your relationship with Aesop in in a little while, but I'm keen to get into your background.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.400
I mean, you have a background in history, I think I'm right in saying.
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:25.359
History of science.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.720
And well, the philosophy of science.
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:28.480
History and philosophy of science, yeah.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.680
But initially you kind of came to prominence as an artist.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.440
So how did you switch from the philosophy of science into art?
00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:43.200
I don't really think that these days a lot of the university courses really set you up for the kind of career.
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:47.039
You know, I'm I'm a big I think it's definitely studying the history of science.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:54.319
You you learn more about how people came to these things through real, I guess, apprenticeships or, you know, immersion in a field.
00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:02.480
Um and so I think I was going to go back and study art, but you know, what I was interested in was really from this more scientific angle.
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:09.039
Um and my undergrad was actually in business, and so I have this, you know, economics nerd background as well.
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.759
It's quite an unusual combination, if you don't mind me saying.
00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:13.200
Is it?
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.160
Yeah, you know, I don't know, it's just what I was interested in.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:22.400
Um I was always working in the arts and I I didn't do much maths at high school, so I actually went back to do business so I could do the arts.
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:22.799
Okay.
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:24.400
Um and it served me very well.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:25.119
Yeah.
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.920
But um I mean, look, you I think it's pretty dark out there.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.799
There's a lot going on in the world that we live in right now.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:40.079
And I I came to this practice really because I, you know, the the antidote to despair is action.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.759
And, you know, I felt like I had to do something, and and this is what I've ended up doing.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.799
Okay, so you have this background in business, you've become an artist.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:54.319
Why did you decide to work with well, I was gonna say seaweed, but we met yesterday and you pulled me up on it.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:56.559
So it's not seaweeds, it's algae.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.480
It fits into the conceptual frame, and this is where the kind of artwork comes in.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:12.720
Because I think when you're when you're dealing with working as an artist, you get to have this luxurious amount of time to think about things and to really put a a frame around the concepts and a frame around the information that you're thinking through.
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:21.519
And so the the artistic research project started thinking about yes, a post-pectrochemical world, because we've done a lot of plastic.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:30.000
Plastic has has really impacted our world in a way that no other material has, and in a very, very short amount of time, if you look at a historical scale.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:34.240
And so I started looking into, I like to break things down, by the way.
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.160
So, you know, if you're thinking about something, you go, like, okay, what's the historical frame?
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.240
What's the like what's the material made of?
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.119
What's that history?
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.240
How did we start making it?
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.519
Where did it come from?
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:52.799
And uh, when you get to petroleum plastics or petroleum-based plastics, you get to petroleum oil, which we often refer to as a fossil fuel.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.119
The fossils in that are mainly microalgae.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:01.200
And the reason for that is that that's really all that existed on Earth at that time.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.519
Like that is how old that resource is.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:07.599
It predates most life on Earth.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:13.119
And I found that just so remarkable and such um an incredible thing.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.039
You know, you won't look at a piece of plastic in that same way when you know that.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.000
You're like, I'm looking at something that predates dinosaurs.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.279
Dinosaurs are old.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.480
This is way older.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:24.960
And um, and we're using it for a whole bunch of things.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:44.079
So it really started with this idea, and so algae is a term that encapsulates both macro algae, which are your seaweeds that you find, you know, on the beach and you can see, and microalgaes, which are far more ancient, uh, predate a lot more things, and um and you can't really see them with your naked eye.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.400
Am I right in thinking that it this all started with beekeeping initially?
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:50.640
I yes, I have done beekeeping.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.119
It didn't start with beekeeping, but I did do beekeeping.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:53.759
Yes, yeah.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.559
So you move from beekeeping into where you are now?
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.160
I'm a very curious person.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.839
But you know, I think um I think it comes from systems.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.680
I think I'm interested in systems.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.000
Bees are a very, very interesting system.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.279
But there was a moment.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.920
I'm I'm gonna press you about about algae.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:12.240
Yeah.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.799
You're on a residency in Morocco.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.839
Was there this Eureka damazine moment where you went, okay, no, this is what I need to be doing?
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:21.440
Yeah, it was a little bit before that.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.400
Um the Morocco thing had another quite fortuitous linking up of ideas.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:45.599
But um thinking about this very, very ancient algae that has been compressed with heat and pressure over hundreds of millions of years, if not billions, uh, I started to think about, you know, what we could be doing with a regenerative algae, with an algae that was maybe grown today, able to be regrown.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.759
And that cycle continued in a way that is actually sustainable.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.839
Um, and you know, that there's been this movement of I guess biomaterials.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:02.000
I don't really like to speak about it too much because the term's been really overused and it has a a lot of Acetic and functional baggage around it.
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:03.440
Like such as.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.359
I think we don't even need to mention it.
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.960
You know what we're talking about when we say something.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:08.480
I do, but maybe other people don't.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:13.039
There's a certain aesthetic that comes to mind when you mention a biomaterial.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:18.400
And there's a certain worry or anxiety about the durability and the performance of the material.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:20.559
And I think that's just because it's an early thing.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.400
But like timber is a biomaterial.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:23.279
It is, yeah.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:24.000
Yeah.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:27.119
So I think we've got to get past that.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.559
We've got to be a bit more mature about it.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.000
And same with sustainability.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:38.960
But so I was thinking about these, you know, what we could do with an algae that was more recent and much more regenerative.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.920
And I started, you know, messing around with these recipes.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:49.599
Um, and I I'm quite a focused person and I got quite uh obsessed with it.
00:22:49.680 --> 00:23:05.039
And the history of science really came into this because when you read the history of science and you read about how people actually got to these discoveries that we use every day, the amount of work, the amount of trial and error surpasses anyone's idea of what is reasonable.
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:17.599
And so that really, I think, gave me the um I guess unhealthy uh level of persistence in just like trialing and trialing and trialing and researching and working it out.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.119
There's a quote of yours I found that I I rather like.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.279
You described this period in history as a time of unlearning.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:26.000
Oh yeah.
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:27.759
What did you mean by that?
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:39.519
Well, um we've only been doing this kind of troubling stuff that we've got to work our way out of for a you know a couple of hundred years.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.920
And when you look at the scale of human history, that is nothing.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:45.039
That's nothing.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:24:00.160
So I think you know, we've been in this linear economy of using materials and then thinking about how we're gonna basically put them in the ground again, um, or you know, get rid of them, put them in a bin, put them in a compost, put them in whatever.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:05.920
That's been a linear economy for maybe the last 200, 300 years.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:12.319
Uh, but before that, we would use something and then we'd work out how to reuse it because it was valuable.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.240
Um, and so that's what I'm talking about.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:29.359
You know, it's just been this period of kind of it's been an economic system, it's been, you know, trying to build up a capitalist system which has come with so much um incredible sharing of wealth.
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.759
You know, we have so many people in the world and a lot of them have a very good quality of life.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:34.880
A lot of them don't.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:39.519
But on the whole, when you look at the history of what we were doing before then, it's been amazing.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:43.039
But there's some things that we've lost in the process, and that's what I'm talking about.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.880
We're kind of coming back to being like, oh yeah, you know, these things aren't new.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.839
Biomaterials are not new, sustainability is not new.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.599
It's just become this kind of marketing catchphrase, but we're learning it again.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:54.079
Yeah.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.119
What are the benefits of working with algae?
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.119
Um, well, for me, it was this conceptual link.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:06.400
Um, and then, you know, the material was really I worked out how to use it quite well.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:11.599
Um, you know, it worked out how to get it to look exactly like like vinyl and like plastic.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:25.440
And since then, that was a jumping off point into just thinking about how to break down that system and work our way back into where we needed to be in that circularity and you know, how we can use these materials in a way that that works a little better.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:27.920
And so how do you go about making?
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.559
I I mean, I don't know if uh trade secrets, but how do you go about making the material?
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.759
What's your your process?
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.720
Because you've described it already as a bit like cooking.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.079
You've you've in the past compared it to creating chicken stock.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.279
Yes, yeah.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:41.759
Yeah.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:56.880
So the um the soup analogy is really talking about the um the extraction of um an extract from algae because some people kind of come to the material, especially when it's colored beautiful green, like it is in this uh in this installation, they'll kind of be like, oh, is it seaweed?
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:57.839
And it's like, no, no, no.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.759
We're using an extract from seaweed.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:04.319
Um, it's as much algae as uh paper is wood, for example.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:06.160
Is it readily available, Jesse?
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:08.640
This is less infinite supplies.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:15.279
There are some uh materials that as they scale, they have um a supply consideration with their feedstock.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:21.440
The base materials that we use that we that we don't, you know, they're our secret herbs and spices, but they're very readily available.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.839
Um they're all technically edible.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.880
Our materials are not edible because we don't operate a food safe, but that's how non-toxic they are.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.400
Um and so they, yeah, that's what we're using.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:34.000
We're using an extract from algae.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680
And the way that that is extracted is similar to cooking a chicken stock.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:47.039
It's kind of the the biomass or the seaweed goes in, water goes in, it's boiled, the seaweed mass is taken out, and then it continues to be boiled down.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:48.319
And we use that extract.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:48.880
Okay.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.599
And when you use that extract, what do you use it for?
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.920
Because initially it was for art-based projects, but that's that's obviously changed and developed.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.039
Well, the art-based projects, I was making my own material.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:01.279
So we're still here making materials.
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:06.000
And um, the practice that we have now is really still the art practice.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.759
It's just that I think we we don't have time to just make art in this time right now.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.079
So this is still very much the art practice.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:15.759
It's just the you know, the walk in the walk.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:21.680
And the fascinating thing about working with a a new material as as you are is is the research and development, I guess.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.400
I mean, can we know how it's gonna age, for example?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:27.279
Yeah, look, we we work with CSIRO.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:32.640
Um CSIRO are Australia's federal, uh federal government science agency.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.759
They are incredible scientists in every area of science.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.680
They invented Wi-Fi and a lot of other things.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:43.599
Um but yeah, we we work with them.
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:49.200
Um they gave us a very nice award uh in 2024, which is definitely named by scientists.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:55.279
It was the award for the most promising advancement in achieving the ending plastic waste mission goal.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:56.880
Um rolls off the top.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.079
Just rolls off the table.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:02.240
Definitely no branding people involved in that one.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:12.400
Um but it's such a clunky name because it actually links in with the UN the obligations that Australia has as a country and that every country has under the UN.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.400
So, you know, we we've been working with them for a couple of years.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.599
I'm not a scientist.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.960
I'm uh did hil history and philosophy of science, which I am definitely not a scientist, you know.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:29.200
Um, but we work with scientists and we work with conservators quite a bit, and we work with conservation scientists.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:34.799
So we bring in the people that can actually answer these questions, and we have since the very, very beginning.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.599
Um because they know their stuff.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:44.960
So um the question of how long something is gonna last is a long and complicated question to answer.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.200
Because when we make it in this color, that needs a particular test.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.920
And when we make it in this thickness, it needs a particular test.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.319
And if we change the colour or change the thickness, it needs a whole different testing regime.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.640
Because when you're doing science, it needs to be like it's very, very structured.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.960
Um, but we do have quite a few answers.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.200
We've done um a range of different testing.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.359
Um, and then we also have our anecdotal tests.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:15.599
Like we've had the material around for you know going on seven years with uh changes that we you know have recorded and and we know about.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.000
When you're doing what you do, which is breaking new ground, do you have a mentor?
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:21.440
Do you have somebody you can turn to?
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.759
So many, yeah, absolutely.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:29.599
I mean, I think there's there's a lot of different people that we have come across.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.039
And like I said before, like these things in the world, they're not new.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:42.240
You know, it is, yes, we have a patent and it's you know bringing something new into the world, but there's there's templates for all of the different components.
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:53.200
You know, people have done scientific development before, people have done manufacturing scaling before, people have done you know production of vinyls before, people have done recycling systems before.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:55.680
Um, there's just a lot of them that we're fitting in.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.680
So yeah, we we speak to a lot of people.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:06.880
We have a lot of really generous advice, um, scientists, conservation scientists, people in manufacturing, other designers, other artists, curators.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:13.440
Yeah, it's incredibly um, you know, we're we're so grateful for all of the the help and advice we've had over the years.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:21.519
Doing a a bit of research on you, something I was intrigued by is it seems that your practice has changed with your various studio moves.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:22.160
Oh, yeah.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:23.119
Would that be true?
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.759
I mean, the the the size and scale of your studio has affected the sort of work you do.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:29.440
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.400
Absolutely.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:34.640
I mean, the first studio was really um during COVID.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:38.160
So it was kind of my house because that's where we could be in Melbourne.
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:40.400
You weren't allowed to leave the house.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.880
Um and yeah, then I moved into a little space in the city of Melbourne.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:49.920
Um the council gave me a retail shopfront that had been emptied during COVID.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:55.599
Um, and I had somewhat of an open studio there because it was just a retail store and I was making in there.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:04.640
Um and then I moved to there was some developers that were had a building they were activating, and they gave me a beautiful space um for a couple of years.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.400
And then I had to leave there and now I have a bit of a warehouse.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.559
And so yeah, we've we've grown the team.
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:16.960
And also grown with Esop has been kind of along for that ride as well, and have supported us along the way to scale.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:18.799
And you've developed these decals.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:19.279
Yeah.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:22.079
Which is like what an architectural film, I think.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:23.599
Yeah, a signage film.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:25.759
The thing you'll see, like cut-out text.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:28.400
You once you realize it, you'll see it everywhere.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.160
And so how did that develop?
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:44.000
That came as a way of it was my own selfish need because um when you're talking about the types of plastics that there are in the world, um, I I was becoming more and more aware of this as part of that whole research project.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:54.480
Um and I was having exhibitions that were in my practice, which we've already talked about, so everyone kind of knows that it was materially um intimate and and critical.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:04.400
And the material that most signage film is made of is a particularly not great type of material.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.160
So it's PVC, but it's a phthalate-heavy PVC.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:16.480
Um phthalates are a group of chemicals that are used as a plasticizer to make materials softer and more flexible.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:26.319
And um there's a lot of different types of phthalates, but a vast number of them are listed uh as a substance of very high concern under the EU.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:35.440
And there's regulation over the next couple of years that will mean that there can be less than 1% of these materials in any material, these substances in any material.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:42.160
Um traditional PVC signage film is 20 to 50% phthalate by weight.
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.039
So sometimes as much phthalate as PVC in the material.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.559
And phthalates are being regulated because they have um negative impacts on human health.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:52.880
Right.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:57.839
And they've been really substantially and strongly linked to falling fertility rates in humans.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.279
And we've known this for quite a while.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.519
Um, you know, science, the world of knowledge, has known this for a long time.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.680
So, you know, it it's this is the first time we've actually done anything in Europe.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.559
And it's amazing because Europe is so far ahead of the curve.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.960
And Aesop's also so far ahead of the curve.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.640
Um, so I started, you know, making the signage for my own artwork.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.119
Okay.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:23.200
Because when you know this about that material, it it doesn't really make sense.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.400
It doesn't make sense to have this being the actual material that describes your work to the public who are coming to see your work.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:35.039
So my artwork was already kind of similar.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:45.119
It was these I was making these very big hangings of a thin film that was telling the story about this fossil fuel deep time ancestry.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.279
Um, and so it was already in this form that was quite vinyl-like.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.359
And I took it to some vinyl cutters and said, Hey, could you just cut my signage?
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.960
And we did one little test.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:05.359
I had it on my studio window, and Esop's VM team in Melbourne, um, Luke Mortimer and Callan Hurley were coming to my studio to commission artwork.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:12.239
They were coming to have a look, and then we finished this artwork studio visit, and they looked at this text and were like, what's that?
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.159
And the rest is history.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.480
So that's how the relationship began.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:17.760
It did, yeah, yeah.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.000
You know, so it's it's very, very fortuitous.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:27.519
There's been a lot of um critical points in this practice that, you know, just wouldn't have happened, like stars really aligned.
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:31.039
Um and so they went back and and really changed that whole campaign.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.679
It was a campaign for the BCC serum.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.360
Uh, and that campaign happened in early 2024.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.760
And they ended up changing the whole campaign.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:51.280
So we we used the artwork and then we made extra material and cut it out into the jar shapes, the silhouettes, and we did it in I think 29 stores around Australia and New Zealand.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:55.920
And that job enabled me to file a patent, which we now have granted.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.199
So I was gonna ask, so it's been two years, and what have ESOP done with Jesse during that period of time?
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:10.159
Well, as Jesse said, it started um with Callum and Luke and the coming to the studio, and we used it first in Australia.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:14.000
And then the partnership has just evolved.
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.519
So we've used it in, I think is it eight countries now?
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:18.559
Eight countries now.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:28.159
Eight countries over 80 different stores, and the kind of intention each time and as we move forward is to look at how do we start to build up scale.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:36:00.000
So what Jesse is doing is incredible, but Jesse and a small team, if we were going to scale that material to be able to use it in more stores on global campaigns, so it's really working with Jesse and the team to see about what are the possibilities to do that, like what's the system around making that possible, and then how can ESOP um play a part in changing that system or you know, doing what we can to support the scale journey?
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:14.239
And I think it's just it's it just gives this incredible like touch point with our customers to be able to like actually talk about materials and talk about like what we use every day and don't even think about the impacts of.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.920
Um and Jesse just brings that that conversation.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.039
So it's incredible.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.679
Do you have a kind of a garrison of designers doing the kind of work that Jesse's doing?
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.920
Are you constantly on the lookout for people doing this kind of work?
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:32.800
I think like we have a history of working with local artisans, local makers.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:43.519
Like our approach to VM has over the course of Aesop always been about trying to find like people who are using materials in interesting ways.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:57.519
Like there's some great stories of in our stores, like where we like for Cambridge, for example, if you think about the fens, we worked with like an incredible artisan making like materials from the reeds that are in the Cambridge Fens.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:02.159
So like we're always kind of looking for people doing interesting things with materials.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:09.599
And I think it's just that the material that Jesse is working with is a material that ASOP uses all the time.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:20.559
Um, and so that's where there's like a really interesting possibility because it's one of our most commonly used materials because our stores are built to last and they kind of endure.
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:29.920
The thing that changes in our stores is the windows, because that's where we're communicating with the customer about what's changing inside in terms of the product, what we want to spotlight.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:39.280
And so it's really about like, okay, so let's take the philosophy that we've used of how we design the store and use that same philosophy to what we're doing in our windows.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.039
So trying to have lower impact, trying to find more circular solutions that we can reuse.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.119
Um, that's the kind of intention behind it.
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.679
And these decals, can they be unpeeled and reused?
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:51.039
Is that the Yeah, yeah.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:52.000
That's quite cool.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:56.239
So we're sitting in this KPG store, and I I'm not going to try and pronounce the name.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.039
Um Danish word, live for my error.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.400
But you know, we've we're looking out onto the front window, and it it's got, you know, this kind of full coverage.
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:12.159
Well, it's, you know, it started the install with the full coverage, and it's got these tiny little silhouettes of the parsley seed tube.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.320
And so customers can come and peel it off.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:21.119
The other remarkable thing um about this material is that we don't need adhesive to stick it to the glass.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.480
So we just use water.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.119
Really?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:23.760
Yeah.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:29.920
So it's um it's hydrophilic material, so it it absorbs a little bit of water and gets a little bit kind of tacky and soft.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:40.320
And then if you've ever installed vinyl, um, for those of you haven't, you kind of just use the squidgy thing or a credit card or something to smooth it out and get all the water and air bubbles out.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.519
And that process stretches it out on the on the glass.
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:48.480
And then as it dries, um, if you think about paper drying, it kind of dries with a crinkle.
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:51.760
Um, that crinkles to do with contraction of the material.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:58.159
But our material, when it's stuck to the glass, it essentially contracts onto the glass and forms a mechanical stick.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.760
So when you peel it off, it's not sticky, it's completely dry.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.639
And that uh is given to customers as a beautiful gesture to think about it.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.199
They can put it on their glass or their mirror at home.
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:15.519
And we've done this activation, this type of activation at Melbourne Design Week last year, and then we did it at Singapore Design Week.
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:21.840
And I still walk into meetings where people tell me, I've got that little, I've got that shape on my bathroom mirror.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:22.960
So yeah, but it's nice.
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.039
People take it home, they can touch and feel and and take take it with them.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:35.280
But it also means that for like campaign graphics, you can have a kit of parts that you then just move around so you're not making new stuff all the time.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:36.559
And we've done installations like that.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.280
Interesting.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.039
And scent is becoming an increasingly important element in what you do.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:42.880
Yeah, yeah, you can put scent in it.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.800
How long does that scent remain?
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.719
Well, scent is always, you know, that's why you have it in a sealed glass bottle.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:54.719
So as soon as scent is out in the world, as soon as it's smellable, it's it's kind of it's running away from us.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:04.800
Um, but we did make some scented curtains for Aesop last year, and they lasted, they they were clove scented with clove essential oil.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.320
And they lasted a long time.
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:11.440
We've still got some sheets in the studio, and when we open them up, we're like, oh, yep, clove.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:11.679
Yeah.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.559
And on a more macro level, are there plans for you, Aesop and Jesse, to work together in the future?
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.400
Do you have anything you can talk about?
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:19.599
We do have plans.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.119
I can't say too much about them.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.079
Oh, you you can.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:22.800
It's fine.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:23.519
No, nobody.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:24.719
It's just you and A.
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:28.719
There might be an other matter collaboration in in the works.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:35.199
I would tease it to say something that's been long awaited for Aesop and that we have been in the background testing and learning around.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:35.760
Yeah.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.199
There might be an other matter collaboration in in the works there.
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:40.320
Jesse, how about you?
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:41.679
What's what's the future holding for you?
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.559
Well, we haven't even finished talking about what we're doing in this story.
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:45.760
Fair enough, fair enough.
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:47.360
Let's let's do that.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:59.840
Um so with this campaign up here, you know, I think the other story that we have in here, not only is it a kind of new material that can be recycled and um and peeled off and not use adhesive.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.480
So behind you, there's some images of a chair.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:23.519
And it looks like it's upholstered in leather, but it's upholstered in the material that we make from reprocessing all of our studio offcuts and the offcuts of the vinyl and the uh the installation here, when we're finished with it, that will come back and go back into its pot from what it was first made.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:32.079
Uh, we add only charcoal because when you're dealing with offcuts from lots of different jobs and projects, you get a very weird color.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.119
Um, and we wanted this to be a system that we can use in our studio.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:38.880
So this is our reprocessing system, and it's a whole system redesign.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:43.920
So we add charcoal, it makes everything black and it gives it a beautiful texture.
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:58.559
And the thing that we're most happy about out of this is that we've kind of solved the system's issue with recycling because plastic recycling does happen, but it was an afterthought.
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:11.119
So it was kind of invented um in the kind of 90s, 80s when plastics were already away out there in the world at scale and um they started to have some regulation.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:12.800
So recycling came in then.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:17.360
Less than 10% of petrochemical plastics that have ever been made have been recycled.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:22.960
And the problem is that you go through this process of collecting and reprocessing.
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.920
There's a lot of energy that goes into that, that reprocessing of petrochemical plastics, very high heat.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:38.800
And then you get a product that is less good and able to be sold for less than the original virgin plastic, which makes it quite hard to make it work.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:42.480
So we designed this system in mind from the very start.
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:52.719
So our material gets reprocessed into this upholstery grade material that is leather-like, and we can sell that for then more.
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:53.360
Okay.
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.159
And so, yeah, it the system actually works on a next one.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:57.119
Yeah, no, it's so interesting.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:05.280
So this window display in this eSOP store that we sat in in the middle of Copenhagen, that will get turned into a lever alternative when it's finished.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:12.719
And sitting behind us are all of the off-cuts, because the other store has cutout text, which I'm holding the, you know, cutout text is always cut out of a sheet.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.360
And that's the other unseen waste.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:21.599
You know, we see these beautiful letters, but they're the bulk of the what they were cut out of is actually the bulk of the waste.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:31.199
Um there is the amount of signage film that's produced per year by the world is enough to blanket Copenhagen 2,500 times.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:49.119
Um, and you know, in the time that we've been working together in that two years, with one person, mainly me, on production in a very handmade artisanal process that is yet to industrially scale, we've just placed more than one ton of signage film and more than 188 kilos of phthalates.
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.920
So, you know, we're we're making that impact.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:00.320
But the thing I'm most excited about is this leather because we're creating, you know, what doesn't need to sit in a special category of being a biomaterial or anything.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.239
You just, I don't like to introduce it like that.
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.639
You just show people the material and it speaks for itself.
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:06.239
It's a beautiful material.
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.440
And now we're getting into the hands of other designers.
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.239
So the chair is a made-by-morgan chair.
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:18.880
They're a Melbourne-based furniture maker and designer, and they make they handmake beautiful, beautiful furniture in Melbourne.
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:30.559
And so they had this existing chair uh seating range, and that was previously upholstered in either a paper cord or um or a beautiful hide, thick leather hide.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:36.559
And so they've just re-upholstered it, you know, we've done a version of all of their seating in that range.
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:42.559
And we've we've got the stool and the dining chair here in Copenhagen, and it's upholstered in our leather.
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.119
So this is your present and your future by the sound of it.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:56.239
And you know, I think yes, they're materials, but I think what's most exciting is it's the system that works, you know, and and I think that's where we needed to roll back to and go, hang on, what's working in this system?
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.559
It all comes down to system design in the end.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.599
I think, Jesse, Rebecca, that's a lovely place to leave it.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:03.119
Thank you both so much for your time.
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.000
And we've got a day left of three days of design.
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.800
Go out into Copenhagen and see lots of good work.
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:09.679
I hope you have a great day.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.079
Lovely.
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:11.280
Thanks so much, Gwen.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:11.840
Thank you.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:12.880
Thank you.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:19.280
My huge thanks go to Rebecca and Jesse, as well as Esop for sponsoring this intriguing conversation.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:24.400
You can find out more about its hair, skin, and body care products at esop.com.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.639
Meanwhile, to discover more about Jesse, go to other matter.com.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:36.960
You can also go to our website, to other podcasts that I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to find out all about the various events we'll be running in 2026.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:44.800
One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:53.599
For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.519
Material Matters is a completely independent concern, and any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:06.639
Ultimately, you'll be helping to take the message, the importance of materials, skill, craft, and design to a whole new audience.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.320
Thanks very much for listening.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.960
We're going to take a short summer break, but we'll be back with you by the end of August.
