#133 Why Attributes Matter More Than Skills: Former Navy SEAL, Rich Diviney Shares Leadership Insights

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Today, Callum and I are incredibly excited to welcome Rich Davini to this episode
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because Rich brings over two decades of experience as a Navy SEAL commander,
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where he's responsible for leading
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some of the most elite teams and high-performing teams in the world.
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Rich has held multiple leadership positions and honed his expertise in the selection, assessment,
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and training of Navy SEALs, focusing on finding the ultimate performers amongst
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an already exceptional group.
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So Rich works as a leader in developing mental performance programs and he's
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helped teams perform at their peak, even under the most demanding environments.
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I know we're going to be diving into that.
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So now as the founder of Attributes Inc, Rich applies his unique blend of military experience.
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Neuroscience, and psychology to help organizations unlock their true potential.
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And just to add to that is that Rich has worked in some of the biggest companies
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in the world, which include Google, Lexus, Cargate, Palmolive, and many more.
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So, Rich, a very big welcome to you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Rebecca.
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Pleasure to be here. So thanks for having me. Thank you very much.
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Rich, it's awesome to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time.
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I'd really love to dive into the
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first part of your career where you spent almost 20 years as a Navy SEAL.
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To me, having no military experience whatsoever, I find that quite fascinating.
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So I'd be really curious to just kind of dive into that initially.
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What initially drew you to becoming a Navy SEAL?
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Well, let's see. Thanks, Callum. Thanks for, well, and thanks.
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Thank you for having me as well.
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The, you know, what drew me to be a Navy SEAL, that's an interesting question.
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I grew up wanting to be a Navy pilot, a jet pilot.
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I have a twin brother and he and I were kind of bent on that,
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on that pathway from an early age. I mean, we're talking like six or seven years old.
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We wanted to be Navy pilots and specifically Navy because Navy guys land on,
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on aircraft carriers and there's nothing harder than that, we thought.
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So that's where we were kind of focused.
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It was really the early news. I discovered, I found out about the Navy SEALs.
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I didn't know what they were.
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And I was like, oh, who are these guys? I started researching them and realized,
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man, these are, this is a team I might be interested in being a part of.
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So going through university, I was in an ROTC program, which is a program that
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you can go through that helps.
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Basically, they pay for your college and then you get commissioned into the service afterwards.
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And I selected SEALs. I said to myself, I know I can be a pilot,
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but I don't want to always wonder if I could be a Navy SEAL. And so I tried out.
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I was I was luckily I was selected for it's very difficult, very difficult selection
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process just to even get to SEAL training.
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And then I went to SEAL training in 1996.
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And of course, SEAL training is some of the most difficult training in the world.
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So but once you're there, it's all on you. It's not as to whether or not you're going to quit.
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And so I went through that and and graduated and then began a SEAL career.
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So I think it was the it was the idea of there's this there's these guys out
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there, this team of warriors that they're not only special operations,
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but I think specifically there they come from the ocean.
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They come from the waters. I loved everything about the ocean and the water.
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And so it seemed it seemed a good fit.
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And I'm happy to say I made it through out of a class. Our class started with
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one hundred and seventy students and we graduated thirty eight.
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Those are, that's normal numbers for SEAL training. It's usually about a 90% attrition rate.
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So, so yeah, that, that began my career and, and I never looked at it.
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I know from what I've heard about Navy training, it sounds like,
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you know, it requires a lot of grit to get through that, which I know is one
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of your attributes, you've outlined them. So I'm sure we'll get into that in more detail shortly.
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One of the questions I have here around SEALs and leadership is I feel like
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you get exposed to very strong leadership when you're in the SEALs.
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So I'm just going to kind of hear your perspective. What sort of traits did
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you see from effective leaders during your time in the SEALs?
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Yes. Well, so you do. And I think, well, one of the things we have to understand
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about the military, and this is regardless of any military around the world,
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because we work with so many,
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is that, yes, you do have some fantastic military leadership,
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but you also have some lousy military leaders.
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It's not a for certain thing. I believe that I was fortunate in the sense that,
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A, yes, I was in a community that typically had some very outstanding people to include leaders.
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But I think, B, we were thrust into an environment, i.e.
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War and combat, that I think accelerates those leadership qualities,
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especially the good ones, because the bad ones tend to not be successful.
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They tend to kind of go by the wayside. But I think I think the key ones were
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accountability. You always look for that in a leader.
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I think it was decisiveness, the ability to kind of make a decision quickly and and efficiently.
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I think empathy is one of the strong leadership qualities, courage,
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of course. So I think those were some of the ones I count authenticity.
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Those were some of the key attributes that I saw in the best leaders.
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And then and in essence, the ones I tried to emulate to myself as a leader.
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Amazing. And in your book, you talk a lot about attributes sort of being,
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I guess, performance kind of under stress.
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I know you can demonstrate a skill whenever, but it's the attribute,
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you know, when the sort of, when it really comes down to it,
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how do you deliver that under stress?
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Do you maybe have an example you could share from your time in the military
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where someone or sometimes stood out to you where they demonstrated that very well?
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Gosh there's so many well i think i think the attributes let
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me just give you a couple examples just from from training and
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so and so in seal training and so seal training is
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in san diego california it's six months long it's called buds basic underwater
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demolition slash seal training again like i said it's a 90 percent attrition
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rate when you go through buds you spend hundreds of hours carrying big heavy
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boats on your head you spend hundreds of hours exercising with 300 pound telephone
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poles and running around those things and then freezing in the surf zone and
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i you know, like I said, I went through in 96.
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In 2010, when I was actually doing this work, I began to do the attributes work.
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I looked back at my training and I had at that point been on hundreds of combat
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missions overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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I can tell you with certainty that never on one of them did I carry a big heavy
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boat on my head or a 300 pound telephone pole.
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And so what I realized was that what they were doing to us in SEAL training
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was not in fact training us in the skills to be Navy SEALs.
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They were actually putting us into these environments to see if we had the qualities,
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if we had what it took to be Navy SEALs.
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And so that was one kind of illumination for me. The other one came in the version
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of a story told to me by an older Navy SEAL.
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He had been an instructor years ago, years back. And he said,
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you know, Rich, there's a story of a kid showing up to Navy SEAL training one day.
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And he walked into the instructor's offices and he says, I want to be a Navy SEAL.
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The instructor says, okay, well, you have to do a swim test. And the kid says, fine.
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And so they take him out to the pool and it's an easy swim test.
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It's 50 meters. So 25 meters to one end, 25 meters back to the other end.
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But anyway, this kid gets all ready to go and he jumps in the pool and when
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he jumps in the pool, he proceeds to sink to the bottom of the pool.
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And at the bottom of the pool, he starts walking across.
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The bottom of the pool to one end. He touches one end and he walks across the
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bottom of the pool back to the other end. He comes up, he's gasping for air, nearly drowning.
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And the instructor looks at him and says, what the heck are you doing?
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And the kid who's still trying to catch his breath looks at the instructor and
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says, I'm sorry, instructor, I don't know how to swim.
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And at that point, the instructor pauses and he looks at the kid and says,
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that's okay, we can teach you how to swim.
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And so the question is, why does the instructor do that? He did that because
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he knew if this kid had the attributes, the qualities to show up to Navy SEAL
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training without knowing how to swim.
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He had everything inside of him that we needed to be a Navy SEAL.
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Teaching him the skill of swimming was going to be easy.
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And so I think when it comes to most professions, but certainly the special
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operations professions, the best of us, highest performing humans and the highest
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performing teams distinguish themselves, not because they're able to perform
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when things are going great.
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They distinguish themselves when, because they're able to perform when things
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are not going great, when the, you know, what hits the fan, when we drop into
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chaos and uncertainty and stress.
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And when we do that, we are running on attributes. And so it's super important
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that in any profession, but certainly the spec ops professions,
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but in any domain, we understand what elements we have about ourselves.
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So we understand how we're going to show up and why we're going to show up that
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way in these points of uncertainty, challenge, and stress.
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So it's kind of a roundabout answer, I know, but I guess the quick answer would be,
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Callum, that almost every environment that i
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went into in combat was leaning on attributes not just skill because your primary
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job is to deal with the uncertainty and challenge and stress first and once
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you start dealing with that then you apply the skill you don't you don't shoot
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then think you think then shoot and to think then shoot you have to it has to
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be attributes based attributes focus.
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And so it's almost evaluating what are the the innate qualities of that person
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versus the inherent skill that they they have that's right yeah that's right
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so that's a really nice example thank you for sharing.
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If we fast forward that into kind of a business context, how do you balance
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skill versus the attributes of someone when you're trying to build a high performing
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team or lead a given team?
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I'm really curious to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, so the thing we have
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to understand is when it comes to teaming in any domain, first of all,
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team defined is simply any group of two or more people working together towards
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a common goal or objective.
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That's simple. Now, the distinguishing element for that for a regular team and
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a high-performing team is that perform not only when things are going great,
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but also when things aren't going great.
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So all this to say, high-performing teams can be found anywhere.
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It's not just business, not just athletics, that's just military.
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A high-performing team can be a great marriage. A high-performing team can be
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a group of friends on a trip or a.
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Folks working on a community project. But the idea is teaming,
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when it comes to teaming, it's not about necessarily all the skills that the team brings together.
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I came across years ago, I came across this very interesting fellow.
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His name was Russell Akoff. Russell Akoff had some interesting titles.
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He was a systems theorist. He was a behavioral analyst and a management science expert.
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He used to speak and relate systems theory to leadership.
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And he had some fascinating lectures on YouTube that I used to watch.
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I think he, I think he's deceased.
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I think he died in the early 2000s. But one of the things he used to say to
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his groups, his audiences, he said, if I took the best parts of every best vehicle
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on the planet, and put them all together, so say one, one type of vehicle has the best engine,
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another type has the best suspension, another type has the best carver,
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best parts of every best vehicle on the planet and put them all together in
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the center of the room, would I have the best vehicle on the planet?
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And the answer is no, you wouldn't have a vehicle because the parts wouldn't fit together.
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And he used to say that a system is never just the sum of its parts.
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It's a product of how they interact.
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And so goes with the team. A team is never just the sum of its parts.
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It's a product of their interaction.
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So what businesses have to understand, what any team has to understand is you
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can have all the best, most talented people, but if they're not interacting
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properly, you're going to have a toxic, non-performing, underperforming team.
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So businesses have to understand that, yes, while skills do matter,
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and there are some prerequisites, you wouldn't want to hire a CFO that has not
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been to accounting school, right? So there are prerequisites.
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But just because someone is the top talent, doesn't necessarily mean that they're
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the best fit for the team.
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And sometimes in some cases, you know, every, every skill is buttressed by attributes,
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we don't we aren't able to even gain skills without using attributes to do it.
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In some cases, that person who may be the second best or even the middle.
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Talented or performer might in your environment
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accelerate to someone to one of the best people on
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the planet because because they're actually in an
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environment where they're actualizing their attributes in a in a meaningful
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way so so businesses just have to begin to understand that when it comes to
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teaming we cannot ignore this critical piece of performance when we are picking
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teams or even performance evaluating and i remember you said in when i was doing
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some research you mentioned skills were relatively easy to showcase kind of measure and assess.
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Attributes, not so much.
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So when you're trying to hire someone or select people for your team,
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how do you go about actually finding what attributes someone has?
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And I guess, conversely, how can you best demonstrate the attributes that you do have?
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Yeah, so the first thing, it's a great question.
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The first thing we have to do is understand which attributes we're looking for,
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because every team, every niche is going to have a specific,
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unique set of attributes that allows for or defines success in that niche.
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The list of attributes that are required to be a great Navy SEAL looks different
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than the list of attributes required to be a great salesperson or accountant.
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So that's number one. Number two is you have to, in the hiring process or the
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selection process, implement a little bit of stress, challenge,
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and uncertainty into the process.
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You can do this a couple ways. So let me give you two examples.
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One is an experiential example. So say, Callum, you and I wanted to hire someone who's great at sales.
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Okay. And what we might do is we tell this person on a Friday,
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we say, hey, come in Monday morning.
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You're going to sell us this pencil. Okay. Like we go home for the weekends,
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we come in Monday morning, this person proceeds to show up and just blow our
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minds with their pencil presentation.
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It's something that's one of the best we've ever seen.
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The problem is we would not have learned very much. All we would have learned
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is that person is really good at going home, preparing, and then giving a presentation.
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So instead, what we do is on Friday, we tell that person, hey,
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come in Monday, you're going to sell us this pencil.
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When they show up Monday, however, we say, hey, the plan's changed.
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You're no longer going to sell us this pencil. You're going to sell us this coffee mug.
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And oh, by the way, there's no audio visual, so just roll with it.
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Now, at this point, you and I have to basically deliberately divorce ourselves
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from skills assessment, because what we're about to see is going to be ugly.
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But now we're not looking at skills anymore.
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We're looking at how this person behaves. Do they make light of it? Do they make it happen?
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Do they just, you know, do they roll with it? Or do they kick the dirt?
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Do they make excuses? Do they spiral downward?
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Now we're looking at attributes. And so attributes can be seen always on the
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periphery. They're very rarely what you're looking at directly.
00:13:50.376 --> 00:13:54.156
They're on the periphery of what you're seeing because they're influencing a behavior.
00:13:54.476 --> 00:13:58.656
So that's one way experiential. You can do this with the way you ask questions as well.
00:13:58.796 --> 00:14:03.676
If you ask a question that can insert a little bit of stress or uncertainty
00:14:03.676 --> 00:14:07.016
into that moment, then you get someone from a different optic.
00:14:07.216 --> 00:14:10.136
An example, we worked with a construction company out in Colorado.
00:14:10.316 --> 00:14:12.656
These folks, these guys were awesome, awesome folks.
00:14:12.776 --> 00:14:17.116
And I would describe them as uber patriots. They had American flags everywhere.
00:14:17.296 --> 00:14:21.416
They're super pro-military. They're really fun, really gracious guys.
00:14:21.756 --> 00:14:25.596
And I remember one of the key attributes they were looking for was open-mindedness.
00:14:25.696 --> 00:14:27.816
And so the CEO said, Rich, how would I.
00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:32.760
Ask a question that measured or showed someone's levels of open-mindedness.
00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:34.740
And I said, well, let me give you an example. He said, okay.
00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:38.260
I said, give me three good reasons right now to burn the American flag.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.040
And you can tell when I asked him that he almost had an aneurysm,
00:14:41.140 --> 00:14:43.960
right? But what I was trying to do is I'm trying to pull him out of his fishbowl
00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.820
to see if he can actually look from a different optic, which is what open-mindedness is.
00:14:48.060 --> 00:14:51.360
So I didn't make him answer, but he got the point is you can ask a question.
00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:54.360
And if you insert a little bit of stress, uncertainty challenge,
00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:57.700
then you're going to start to pull someone out of their normal,
00:14:57.940 --> 00:15:01.860
usual response, their comfort zone, basically, and you can start seeing these attributes.
00:15:02.060 --> 00:15:04.960
But you have to really know what you're looking for before you start doing that.
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.300
Just a quick question before I hand over to mum. Was he able to answer your
00:15:09.300 --> 00:15:09.800
question? Will you give me a chance?
00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:15.660
Rich, I'd really love to delve into the workplace and business and the attributes
00:15:15.660 --> 00:15:21.600
of resilience and managing stressful situations and building trust.
00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:26.560
So I see that you've done work with Simon Sinek on building trust.
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.740
And he says everything he's learned about building trust has come from you.
00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:37.780
What have you taught him that all our listeners and viewers would love to learn about?
00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:42.620
Let me give you the highlights. The basic, most important thing we have to understand
00:15:42.620 --> 00:15:46.520
about trust is that trust is not a feeling.
00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.720
A feeling is just a human emotion. Trust is, in fact, a belief.
00:15:50.900 --> 00:15:55.080
A belief is a human emotion that's been rationalized or justified by that human
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.320
being, which reminds us of something very important.
00:15:57.460 --> 00:16:00.360
That is, we cannot make somebody trust us.
00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:04.940
All we can do is behave in a way that allows them to form a belief of trust
00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:06.000
in us, which means behavior.
00:16:06.405 --> 00:16:13.605
Trust comes from behaviors. We behave in a way that allows someone to develop trust for us.
00:16:13.785 --> 00:16:17.185
So in that, we have to understand that our behavior, our personal behavior,
00:16:17.305 --> 00:16:19.905
which stems so much from attributes, right?
00:16:19.945 --> 00:16:23.225
There are some skills in there too, but things like authenticity,
00:16:23.505 --> 00:16:26.225
things like accountability, things like decisiveness, things like empathy,
00:16:26.305 --> 00:16:27.065
these are all attributes.
00:16:27.245 --> 00:16:30.965
And when you are empathetic to another human being, you are showing that person,
00:16:31.025 --> 00:16:32.605
that person is feeling cared for.
00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:35.265
They're feeling that compassion, which means they're going to start building
00:16:35.265 --> 00:16:39.865
trust. When you are accountable, it's very rare that we look at somebody who's
00:16:39.865 --> 00:16:43.885
always pointing fingers at other people and say, that's someone I want to follow.
00:16:44.025 --> 00:16:46.945
It's very rare. And the reason is because we don't trust that person.
00:16:47.165 --> 00:16:51.305
And leadership, in essence, is trust first. I mean, one of the reasons why we
00:16:51.305 --> 00:16:53.405
choose people as leaders is because we trust them.
00:16:53.505 --> 00:16:57.045
That's one of the key elements. And so the best,
00:16:57.285 --> 00:17:02.765
most, I guess the most brief way to describe trust is trust is about how we
00:17:02.765 --> 00:17:08.925
behave and we cannot expect to have someone trust us if we don't go first in that behavior.
00:17:09.105 --> 00:17:13.405
A lot of times people approach a situation or a relationship and they say things
00:17:13.405 --> 00:17:16.525
like, well, I'm going to trust them when they prove it to me.
00:17:16.665 --> 00:17:18.005
And we're putting the onus on them.
00:17:18.405 --> 00:17:21.445
And that is not how trust works. Trust is a generative act.
00:17:21.565 --> 00:17:24.825
We have to go first because if we don't go first, that person is not going to.
00:17:25.505 --> 00:17:28.225
Reciprocate so so if we want to build trust we have to go
00:17:28.225 --> 00:17:32.245
first and it has to be from these behaviors one of
00:17:32.245 --> 00:17:35.125
the things that i'd say it'd be good to get your perspective on is
00:17:35.125 --> 00:17:38.485
that when we have a new employee in the business and we we
00:17:38.485 --> 00:17:43.065
should give them that trust absolutely straight away and if
00:17:43.065 --> 00:17:45.825
we had an example where you as a leader of
00:17:45.825 --> 00:17:48.605
the business have your new company car and you've just pulled
00:17:48.605 --> 00:17:51.485
up into the car park and this new person says i've
00:17:51.485 --> 00:17:54.385
got the meeting room ready and we're you know but we're out
00:17:54.385 --> 00:17:57.085
of coffee hand me your keys and i'll go
00:17:57.085 --> 00:18:00.085
and get the coffee for you a leader
00:18:00.085 --> 00:18:02.865
should just say absolutely and not think oh my goodness i don't know
00:18:02.865 --> 00:18:07.065
this person they've only been in the business a few days what's your take on
00:18:07.065 --> 00:18:10.885
that well i think that's a wonderful example i think there's an example of extending
00:18:10.885 --> 00:18:15.105
trust and in whatever form that comes in it could be i'm going to give you the
00:18:15.105 --> 00:18:18.965
keys to my vehicle but it could come in i mean the the the idea that people
00:18:18.965 --> 00:18:22.705
have to understand is trust doesn't have to be some of these big,
00:18:22.845 --> 00:18:26.965
these behaviors don't have to be some of these big blatant acts of trust.
00:18:27.185 --> 00:18:32.665
A trusting act could be a manager or boss telling his or her employee,
00:18:32.825 --> 00:18:36.305
hey, you take the lead on this. And I have your back if you screw up, right?
00:18:36.505 --> 00:18:42.225
Trust can be as simple as someone stopping another person in the hall and saying, hey, how are you?
00:18:42.445 --> 00:18:45.625
And really listening to their answer. The trust can be built that way.
00:18:45.745 --> 00:18:47.565
And so your example is a good one.
00:18:47.725 --> 00:18:52.185
However, there are so many little examples of relationship in relationship.
00:18:52.405 --> 00:18:56.225
Whether it be employee and employer, whether it be related, whether it be married
00:18:56.225 --> 00:18:59.445
couples, whether it be friends, where just little acts of,
00:19:00.095 --> 00:19:04.095
care, of compassion, of character, of consistency, build trust.
00:19:04.275 --> 00:19:06.475
And trust can also be built very rapidly.
00:19:06.755 --> 00:19:10.075
I mean, we all know that, you know, if the three of us are together in a building,
00:19:10.075 --> 00:19:14.315
and smoke comes, it starts coming in the door, and someone runs into that room
00:19:14.315 --> 00:19:17.075
who never seen before and says, Hey, follow me, I know the way out.
00:19:17.195 --> 00:19:18.455
And they they take us out.
00:19:18.635 --> 00:19:22.575
We've just built trust very rapidly with that human being. So so trust can actually
00:19:22.575 --> 00:19:26.395
be built rapidly, based on intensity of environment as well.
00:19:26.515 --> 00:19:29.875
But we have to I think I think the key is for all of us, whether we're employers,
00:19:30.035 --> 00:19:34.395
employees, it's understand or in any relationship is that trust is constantly built.
00:19:34.495 --> 00:19:38.275
It's those little things that we do every single day. And they're cumulative.
00:19:38.635 --> 00:19:43.395
And in some cases, where maybe intensity is low, that process may take a little
00:19:43.395 --> 00:19:45.395
bit longer, but it's kind of like going to the gym.
00:19:45.515 --> 00:19:49.295
If we go to the gym, you know, in one week, we go three times and then we look
00:19:49.295 --> 00:19:50.335
in the mirror and we see nothing.
00:19:50.535 --> 00:19:53.235
We're like, well, we're not going to quit going to the gym. We understand that
00:19:53.235 --> 00:19:56.155
we just have to keep going to the gym over weeks, over weeks,
00:19:56.235 --> 00:19:58.995
and then we'll start to see a change. And the same thing goes with these behaviors.
00:19:59.295 --> 00:20:03.455
So little behaviors, little steps are how we build. Yeah, really thank you for
00:20:03.455 --> 00:20:05.035
sharing those examples as well.
00:20:05.335 --> 00:20:11.595
And really good that we can build it in very small ways and small steps or building and compounding.
00:20:12.035 --> 00:20:16.115
Let's talk a little bit about stressful environments. So you have worked in
00:20:16.115 --> 00:20:19.275
some of the most stressful environments ever.
00:20:20.053 --> 00:20:23.873
And you've listed out the sort of key attributes that you think are needed in
00:20:23.873 --> 00:20:25.193
stressful environments.
00:20:25.653 --> 00:20:31.073
Are they the same attributes that are needed in business in stressful environments?
00:20:31.653 --> 00:20:36.833
And what can leaders in businesses do to help prepare their teams,
00:20:37.353 --> 00:20:42.893
develop their attributes to form extremely well in those stressful situations?
00:20:43.353 --> 00:20:47.813
Yes, the good news is, yes, they are the same attributes. I will say, though, it depends.
00:20:48.353 --> 00:20:52.793
Not every one of the attributes are required in every single stressful situation.
00:20:52.793 --> 00:20:54.273
But we're talking about things like courage.
00:20:54.453 --> 00:20:58.993
We're talking about things like adaptability, perseverance, compartmentalization, things like that.
00:20:59.173 --> 00:21:01.713
And so what we have to understand, and I think what people have to understand
00:21:01.713 --> 00:21:06.773
about stress and challenge and fear and uncertainty, is that it is a physiological
00:21:06.773 --> 00:21:09.613
response to an external environment.
00:21:10.033 --> 00:21:14.493
However, what that tells us is that physiological response, while identical
00:21:14.493 --> 00:21:16.293
in every human being, it's subjective
00:21:16.293 --> 00:21:19.933
in the sense that it's subjective in what's going to bring it on.
00:21:20.133 --> 00:21:24.353
So in other words, the same thing that makes someone stressful or fearful is
00:21:24.353 --> 00:21:26.113
not going to be the same for the person next to them.
00:21:26.233 --> 00:21:31.253
You could literally have a group of Navy SEALs in Afghanistan in a gunfight
00:21:31.253 --> 00:21:35.473
with Al-Qaeda, and in that moment feeling less fear than the eight-year-old
00:21:35.473 --> 00:21:38.233
you just asked to step in front of their classroom and introduce themselves.
00:21:38.453 --> 00:21:42.253
So fear is a subjective thing. But no matter what that fear is,
00:21:42.413 --> 00:21:46.193
courage is the ability to step into our fear, is its ability to take to basically
00:21:46.193 --> 00:21:47.693
choose the fight response.
00:21:47.773 --> 00:21:52.973
We know when the fear response enters into our brain, our amygdala gets tickled
00:21:52.973 --> 00:21:55.413
and we have the fight or flight choice for us, right?
00:21:55.493 --> 00:21:59.173
But if we choose fight, it's a specific switch in that in our brain.
00:21:59.293 --> 00:22:01.673
And that's the courage switch. If we choose to step into our fear,
00:22:01.773 --> 00:22:04.073
we also get a dopamine reward for that.
00:22:04.273 --> 00:22:08.253
However, we cannot access that courage switch unless we have fear present.
00:22:08.733 --> 00:22:12.293
And so just because, so in other words,
00:22:12.293 --> 00:22:14.993
courage in any capacity has nothing to do or your
00:22:14.993 --> 00:22:17.793
levels of courage have nothing to do with what you do for a living you can
00:22:17.793 --> 00:22:21.073
be you could be a generally anxious person but because every
00:22:21.073 --> 00:22:24.213
single day every moment you're stepping into your discomfort you're high on
00:22:24.213 --> 00:22:27.833
courage you could be someone who does crazy things i don't know if you're familiar
00:22:27.833 --> 00:22:31.093
with alex honnold he had there's a documentary called free solo um this guy
00:22:31.093 --> 00:22:34.893
does free climbing up enormous peaks i mean when you watch the documentary your
00:22:34.893 --> 00:22:38.373
your hands sweat because it's so crazy but they looked at his brain and in the
00:22:38.373 --> 00:22:39.773
documentary They saw that his brain,
00:22:39.913 --> 00:22:44.033
his fear switch doesn't kick on the same way or at the same time most people do.
00:22:44.133 --> 00:22:48.873
It takes a while for his courage switch to kick on, which means he's not accessing it the same way.
00:22:48.933 --> 00:22:52.333
Now, I'm not saying Alex Hunnold is not courageous. I'm just saying that it
00:22:52.333 --> 00:22:56.593
takes longer for him to access that switch. We cannot have courage in the absence of fear.
00:22:56.753 --> 00:22:59.793
So I think what we have to understand as leaders, as teammates,
00:23:00.033 --> 00:23:04.173
what it means getting through stress and fear uncertainty, the first step is
00:23:04.173 --> 00:23:07.453
understanding and encouraging those to step into their fear.
00:23:07.453 --> 00:23:10.733
And then there's other attributes that we can start to take into account.
00:23:11.113 --> 00:23:13.933
Adaptability, the environment is changing around us. How well are we flexing with that?
00:23:14.473 --> 00:23:16.973
Perseverance, do we keep on going? Or, you know, do we have that?
00:23:17.695 --> 00:23:22.075
Efforts in there. Compartmentalization is really big in terms of a mental acute
00:23:22.075 --> 00:23:23.335
attribute, probably the most
00:23:23.335 --> 00:23:26.975
important one when it comes to dealing with stress, uncertainty, and fear.
00:23:27.055 --> 00:23:31.495
And that's really your ability to, out of a prioritization effort and your environment,
00:23:31.655 --> 00:23:35.635
to pick something to focus on and stay on that and block out everything else.
00:23:35.735 --> 00:23:39.535
That's probably the number one attribute for Navy SEALs to make it through training
00:23:39.535 --> 00:23:43.295
is, hey, I'm not going to worry about all of this that I can't control.
00:23:43.395 --> 00:23:46.275
I'm going to pick one thing I can control and I'm going to move to that, I'm going to do that.
00:23:46.435 --> 00:23:48.395
And then I'm going to pick the next thing. And I'm going to pick the next thing
00:23:48.395 --> 00:23:51.435
on the next thing. And then you slowly step through that. So I think those types
00:23:51.435 --> 00:23:53.835
of things can be both trained and encouraged by leaders.
00:23:53.995 --> 00:23:57.475
But again, I think courage, just like fear is infectious.
00:23:57.975 --> 00:24:00.835
And that's you see it in the end of animal kingdom as well, you see a bunch
00:24:00.835 --> 00:24:05.795
of antelope in the in the grassy plains, and there's a lion stalking them and
00:24:05.795 --> 00:24:09.935
one animal looks up and all the arrests look up and they all run together, right?
00:24:10.075 --> 00:24:13.955
So so we know or a better example for us humans is if we're on a flight,
00:24:14.135 --> 00:24:18.735
going somewhere and we hit turbulence, if we look over and the flight attendants
00:24:18.735 --> 00:24:21.615
are all cowering and crying, we're going to be frightened.
00:24:21.875 --> 00:24:24.635
But if we see them all talking calmly and just going about their business,
00:24:24.815 --> 00:24:25.595
we'll probably be calming.
00:24:25.735 --> 00:24:28.595
And so as leaders, as teammates, we have to understand that courage,
00:24:28.735 --> 00:24:29.995
just like fear, is infectious.
00:24:30.135 --> 00:24:34.315
And our response can help affect the responses of others. We should know that with kids too.
00:24:35.695 --> 00:24:40.755
Well, Karen and I took your attributes assessment, which is an online assessment,
00:24:40.755 --> 00:24:45.255
200 and something questions great questions,
00:24:45.728 --> 00:24:49.908
feedback from that, very aligned to who we are as individuals.
00:24:50.628 --> 00:24:53.468
Is this something that you do when you work with organizations,
00:24:53.468 --> 00:24:56.068
you take them through this attributes assessment?
00:24:56.308 --> 00:24:59.868
And then what do you do after that when the team have completed it?
00:25:00.388 --> 00:25:03.548
Yeah. And thanks for taking that, by the way. I was looking at your results. They're great.
00:25:03.668 --> 00:25:06.668
I want to say, though, when you take the assessment, a couple of things to understand,
00:25:06.808 --> 00:25:08.928
a couple of things that set this assessment apart.
00:25:09.068 --> 00:25:12.488
First of all, this is not a personality test. And personality tests are designed
00:25:12.488 --> 00:25:15.868
to show you how you are in normal everyday life with, you know,
00:25:15.988 --> 00:25:17.208
with normal stuff going on.
00:25:17.888 --> 00:25:21.148
Attributes, this attributes assessment shows you who you are at your most raw.
00:25:21.348 --> 00:25:24.328
In other words, it's your performance fingerprints. So that's number one.
00:25:24.748 --> 00:25:28.088
And by the way, I love most of the personality tests. I've taken almost all of them.
00:25:28.188 --> 00:25:31.128
I would say the attributes buttress any one of those, you understand who you
00:25:31.128 --> 00:25:33.488
are in regular life, but then the attributes allow you to understand who you
00:25:33.488 --> 00:25:34.468
are at your very most raw.
00:25:34.948 --> 00:25:39.688
That's number one. Number two is that as you both realize you get a 40,
00:25:39.868 --> 00:25:42.468
you got a list of your 41 attributes from one to 41.
00:25:42.628 --> 00:25:46.228
So they're ranked in order for one to your top attribute all the way to your bottom attribute.
00:25:46.488 --> 00:25:50.348
And what we have to understand and realize is that there's no judgment in those rankings.
00:25:50.548 --> 00:25:55.008
And we don't look at that as top five and those bottom five as your strengths and your weaknesses.
00:25:55.328 --> 00:25:58.808
In other words, you are successful and strong. Both of you are successful and
00:25:58.808 --> 00:26:02.628
strong in what you do as much because of your top five as your bottom five,
00:26:02.888 --> 00:26:07.488
your bottom five, you being low in your bottom five have contributed to your success.
00:26:07.748 --> 00:26:10.708
Now, in that, what we do with organizations and teams is we allow people to
00:26:10.708 --> 00:26:13.268
say, okay, first of all, understand your performance fingerprint,
00:26:13.448 --> 00:26:16.008
understand why this order has served you.
00:26:16.068 --> 00:26:22.448
But let's do the honest introspection and ask ourselves, why or how has this order not served us?
00:26:22.508 --> 00:26:26.888
So in other words, there are some ways and reasons how your top five have not
00:26:26.888 --> 00:26:28.768
served you, some blind spots you have to be considered.
00:26:29.128 --> 00:26:32.948
Same thing with your bottom five. Well, there's tons of reasons why you're having
00:26:32.948 --> 00:26:34.548
those as your bottom five has served you.
00:26:34.628 --> 00:26:38.768
And there's also ways and reasons or blind spots about having those bottom five has not served you.
00:26:38.908 --> 00:26:42.808
So the work we do with teams and organizations, we allow every team member to
00:26:42.808 --> 00:26:47.268
understand themselves at a very elemental level, understand and get.
00:26:48.375 --> 00:26:53.455
Comfortable with the fact that this is not a judgment, that we all have a unique
00:26:53.455 --> 00:26:56.495
performance fingerprint that we then can contribute to the team.
00:26:56.675 --> 00:26:59.995
And then what's cool is that we understand that, you know, sometimes,
00:27:00.215 --> 00:27:03.255
usually in regular life, even though our attribute list is somewhat set,
00:27:03.355 --> 00:27:05.895
we can obviously develop attributes over time.
00:27:06.155 --> 00:27:08.995
What's happening most of the time in our environments is we're either dialing
00:27:08.995 --> 00:27:10.115
up or dialing down attributes.
00:27:10.375 --> 00:27:13.955
So in other words, if you're low on patience, you know, based on environment,
00:27:14.095 --> 00:27:16.335
you may be at home, you might have to dial up your patients.
00:27:16.635 --> 00:27:18.195
Because at home, you need to dial up your patient.
00:27:18.355 --> 00:27:22.295
If you're high on, I have a buddy whose number one attribute was humor.
00:27:22.515 --> 00:27:25.155
And I asked him, hey, do you sometimes have to dial down your humor?
00:27:25.275 --> 00:27:27.675
And he said, Oh, yes, I definitely have to dial down my humor sometimes,
00:27:27.855 --> 00:27:30.755
because the environment is not going to appreciate the joke I want to tell.
00:27:30.875 --> 00:27:34.675
So what we're usually doing in different environments is we have a set order
00:27:34.675 --> 00:27:36.335
of the way we prioritize these things.
00:27:36.495 --> 00:27:39.635
And we're just dialing up and dialing down the dialing up dialing down takes
00:27:39.635 --> 00:27:41.675
conscious thought on our on our part.
00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:46.515
So the way your attributes rank are basically how you operate without thinking.
00:27:46.755 --> 00:27:48.895
And then when you dial up, dial down, it takes conscious thought.
00:27:49.015 --> 00:27:54.715
And so what we do is we align, we allow teams to understand this about themselves, about each other.
00:27:54.855 --> 00:27:59.155
And they say, oh, wait a second. Now we can team in very unique ways because
00:27:59.155 --> 00:28:00.595
now we're not judging anybody anymore.
00:28:00.815 --> 00:28:05.735
My low patience for this person and my frustration is because that person has high patience.
00:28:05.855 --> 00:28:08.835
So I think of that person as slow, but now I can appreciate that that person's
00:28:08.835 --> 00:28:12.655
high patience can in fact, in some cases, slow me down when I need to slow down.
00:28:12.935 --> 00:28:16.875
And so it takes the judgment out of these performance pictures and allows for
00:28:16.875 --> 00:28:19.295
really high performing, high efficiency teams.
00:28:20.015 --> 00:28:24.515
Okay. Can I just jump in with a quick question? Rich, I'd be curious to get your perspective.
00:28:24.755 --> 00:28:30.955
What do you think is an attribute that most people either misunderstand or don't
00:28:30.955 --> 00:28:32.995
value as high as perhaps what they should?
00:28:33.455 --> 00:28:36.115
Oh, that's a great one. And there's probably multiple answers to that.
00:28:36.195 --> 00:28:39.175
But let me give you the most common misunderstanding. And that is the difference
00:28:39.175 --> 00:28:40.735
between perseverance and resilience.
00:28:41.055 --> 00:28:45.175
Most people conflate those two. Perseverance is the ability to get knocked down
00:28:45.175 --> 00:28:46.395
seven times and get up eight.
00:28:46.575 --> 00:28:50.215
It's I'm going to keep coming no matter what. You know, it's a Rocky Balboa effect.
00:28:50.415 --> 00:28:54.415
Whereas resilience is I get knocked off baseline and how quickly and efficiently
00:28:54.415 --> 00:28:55.595
can I come back to baseline?
00:28:55.735 --> 00:28:58.255
It's that rubber band that you stretch and then when you let go,
00:28:58.375 --> 00:28:59.495
it gets back to its original shape.
00:28:59.875 --> 00:29:03.935
Resilience is about recovery, whereas perseverance is about just keep going, keep going.
00:29:04.035 --> 00:29:07.855
And the reason why that matters is because these attributes can sometimes live
00:29:07.855 --> 00:29:09.015
independently of each other.
00:29:09.115 --> 00:29:12.635
In other words, I've worked with performers, top performers who are high on
00:29:12.635 --> 00:29:14.675
perseverance, and low on resilience.
00:29:14.975 --> 00:29:17.555
And what does that look like? That looks like someone who's headed for burnout,
00:29:17.815 --> 00:29:20.175
or who's already burnt out, because that's someone who's just going to go,
00:29:20.295 --> 00:29:23.195
go, go, go, but they never take time to recover.
00:29:23.355 --> 00:29:26.415
And so people have to understand that a lot of people say, no, I'm really resilient.
00:29:26.555 --> 00:29:28.775
But what they're thinking, what they're actually saying is they're perseverant,
00:29:28.935 --> 00:29:31.315
they're conflating it, and they're just going to go, go, go,
00:29:31.435 --> 00:29:32.595
go, and they're going to head to burnout.
00:29:32.815 --> 00:29:36.155
So, so there's, there's multiple examples in the 41 of those types of,
00:29:36.295 --> 00:29:40.135
of those types of what I call metonyms where people think of attributes as the
00:29:40.135 --> 00:29:42.695
same thing, but they're not, but that's probably some of the most important
00:29:42.695 --> 00:29:43.735
when it comes to top performers.
00:29:44.594 --> 00:29:46.834
Well, I'm glad you shared that. Thank you. Because I was looking at my report
00:29:46.834 --> 00:29:48.894
and one of my top five attributes was discipline.
00:29:49.094 --> 00:29:51.894
And one of my bottom five was persistence. So I was curious to see what the
00:29:51.894 --> 00:29:53.114
difference between those two actually was.
00:29:53.534 --> 00:29:55.874
Yeah. Well, discipline is the...
00:29:58.234 --> 00:30:02.314
A little bit different, but persistence is this idea that there's a steadfastness
00:30:02.314 --> 00:30:06.314
in your... I know there's a course of action that I just stick to and I know
00:30:06.314 --> 00:30:08.694
it's going to work out. That's persistence. That's the stonecutter approach.
00:30:08.834 --> 00:30:12.494
The fact that you are low on that just speaks to the idea that you are someone
00:30:12.494 --> 00:30:15.934
who, when something's not working, you tend to just try something else.
00:30:16.114 --> 00:30:19.674
And if that's not working, you try something else, which is actually an enormously
00:30:19.674 --> 00:30:22.094
powerful trait or quality or even attribute.
00:30:22.274 --> 00:30:26.454
However, what the blind spot you have to be aware of is sometimes it might make
00:30:26.454 --> 00:30:29.794
sense in a moment just to stick to the course of action, because you may be
00:30:29.794 --> 00:30:33.114
drawn to change your course of action because you have a better idea,
00:30:33.114 --> 00:30:35.534
or you're going to adapt because you're high on adaptability as well.
00:30:35.654 --> 00:30:38.374
So it's just an indicator that you are, yes, you're low on it,
00:30:38.474 --> 00:30:41.294
but you may just say to yourself, hey, in this certain case,
00:30:41.454 --> 00:30:44.814
I need to stick to this course of action because you may be drawn not to.
00:30:45.034 --> 00:30:47.354
That's what that means. Glad you clarified. Thank you.
00:30:49.054 --> 00:30:51.774
Are you going to wrap up with the last question, Callum? No,
00:30:51.874 --> 00:30:53.634
I've asked mine. You can take a second.
00:30:54.274 --> 00:30:58.554
So, Rich, if you could go back in time and share something that,
00:30:58.814 --> 00:31:04.174
or a leadership myth that you believed at that time, but you've now debunked,
00:31:04.939 --> 00:31:10.719
What is it? Oh, gosh. Well, I think certainly as a younger leader,
00:31:11.139 --> 00:31:16.599
you come in thinking that you have to be able to do everything,
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.699
that you have to, you know, this whole lead from the front idea.
00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:25.939
Where you see the leader in the front of the train or the front of the posse leading the charge.
00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:30.679
And that is a huge myth. We know that the best leaders are the ones who influence
00:31:30.679 --> 00:31:35.039
and they inspire and they empower. and oftentimes they're maybe in the middle
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:40.179
or the back and they are really generating the team to be its best self.
00:31:40.339 --> 00:31:43.299
So I think that's something I, fortunately I learned that fairly quickly,
00:31:43.439 --> 00:31:48.739
but I think I came into my career thinking that that was the truth and learned very quickly.
00:31:48.979 --> 00:31:52.319
That's not how a team runs and that's not your job as a leader of a team.
00:31:52.399 --> 00:31:56.339
Your job as a leader of a team is to make the best team work and that's not
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:59.899
about you in front telling people to follow you. It's just not.
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.179
And so I think that's the biggest one.
00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:04.799
Yeah thank you my similar learning was
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.579
like i didn't have to have all the answers that's why
00:32:07.579 --> 00:32:10.739
you have a team yeah that's right yeah you don't have to know it all i
00:32:10.739 --> 00:32:13.539
think you know have to have all the answers know it
00:32:13.539 --> 00:32:17.019
all that was not quite the right phrase but rich it's been brilliant to have
00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:23.079
you i mean i know we could carry on talking and dive into these topics the attributes
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:26.959
assessment i will share that in the show notes and you very kindly have offered
00:32:26.959 --> 00:32:31.579
a discount on that so we'll share that for everybody to go and have a look at.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:36.099
It's fascinating and gives a deep insight into our own attributes.
00:32:36.879 --> 00:32:40.479
So as we wrap up, I'd like to say a very big thank you to you,
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.519
Rich. It's been so insightful, so enjoyable. Thank you very much.
00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:47.259
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I've enjoyed the conversation.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.999
Likewise to me, Rich. Thanks so much. And I really enjoyed the conversation too. Oh, thank you.