Email: Improve Deliverability with a Smarter Lifecycle Strategy with Chintan Doshi, Mavlers

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[SPEAKER_00]: We always try to make sure that people don't unsubscribe from Oemils, but if they are doing unsubscribe, let them go, make it easier for them to live, because one email address on subscribers find versus receiving one complaint, which is going to affect you on a long term.
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[SPEAKER_00]: People and brands focus on the short term revenue by focusing and not giving that preferences and options to the customers, but then in long run, they affect their delivery.
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[SPEAKER_01]: your listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not familiar with the keypoptimizing format, well here we go.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We release five episode mini series that dive deep, deep, deep into one e-commerce marketing topic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a channel like email or SEO or meta or a big topic, like acquisition,
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[SPEAKER_02]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I interview a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then, after each five episode, many series, we take a week off to give you time to take action on what you've learned.
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[SPEAKER_02]: At the moment, we've been spending five episodes exploring email marketing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So in this episode, we are talking about email marketing,
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[SPEAKER_02]: We are going to be talking deliverability again in this one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So vaguely similar to last time, but also completely different.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas last episode, we were all about list cleaning before you send this time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're all about email life cycles strategy and how to make sure that's bringing you the right results both in income and in future deliverability.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Our guest for this is phenomenal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He goes into so many areas of cool stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to want to implement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have a massive list of things to do as a result of listening to this of recording this episode.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I know you're going to be coming away with loads of great takeaways from this one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So be ready.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're probably after you hear it going to want to either go to the website and grab the transcript or listen again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's got that much packed into it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this will be the last in our series on email marketing for this year.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So make sure you catch up on anything you've missed because that means that last next week we won't be putting it an episode to give you time to take time to catch up and to take action.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you listen right to the end of this episode because as well as the episode, it's the main interview part of the episode being absolutely packed with ideas you're going to want to hear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The top tips are also, so the insider tips are also packed with such advice.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So make sure you stay tuned to the end.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, I'm chatting with email expert, Chintan Doshy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Chintan is senior director of marketing automation at Mavlers, a global email marketing and CRM agency with over 700 people across 52 countries.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They today, he works across multiple platforms, including Salesforce Marketing Cloud, Braise, Cladio, and HubSpot, driving performance for global clients.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Chintan.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Cloy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Super excited to part of your podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Very cool to have you here, and I'm kind of, you know, I can be a bit of a system's geek, and I'm kind of jealous you get to play with all those platforms on a weekly basis, you know, like really get to grips with what the pros and cons are and how to do things in different places, in a different language.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I saw them quite jealous, quite jealous.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How did you get to this place in email?
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[SPEAKER_02]: How did your journey lead to email marketing?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a my journey into email that that moves back to 2013, 2014, back in the days of Black Barry's, Black Barry was quite famous and response to email was not something which was quite the adopted adopted, people were still getting emails on the desktop, mobile was still into the adoption phase, that was the time when I moved into the email world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's majorly into email design and development as a capital design skills and then slowly and gradually expanded myself into email marketing, lab cycle marketing, and now into martek.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's been a good journey of around eight to 12 years I was focusing on different parts of the lab cycle marketing, but yeah, things that's quite evolved from being responsive to now, yeah, any mail.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's an amazing journey.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Great opportunity to learn about email marketing and also work with multiple brands and customers in my journey over all with the agency world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do think it's it's one of the coolest things about e-bell and I think.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I'd ever specialised in one, it would either be an email or performance marketing, which would have been like the ad platforms or the email.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I suspect all other things being equal, it would actually have been email, because there's endless layers, you can peel off it, endless bits you can get into and spend.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's always something to improve, whether it's a new piece of tech or a new concept.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really pleased to get to talk about all this with you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And especially please
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[SPEAKER_02]: all about life cycle strategy, which, I suppose, for me, life cycle strategy feels like the pulling of all of it together, all the nitty gritty bits and the big picture to create something better as the whole.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect you explain it better than that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So how would you explain life cycle strategy within email marketing?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So strategy is a genre core, like I'm sure you would have heard a lot about, like we are implementing marketing automation strategy, life-sick marketing strategy, but then ultimately the strategy which I personally get aligned with is something which helps you to get the business outcome right from the channel.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm able to get some business outcome by leveraging email SMS push or in-app like multiple channels, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's the strategy which I would like more aligned with rather than talking about that again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: makes some improvements into your technical setup of your sales, first marketing cloud or iterable or clear view, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Those are not strategies, those are like technical recommendations, which helps you to get the best out of your platform, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: A marketing automation platform.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But if you want to get the best out of the channel, right, let's say email, that's where you need to think about that what actually your subscribers and customers are looking forward to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What they are expecting from you, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's beyond the platform, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Platform are just a medium.
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[SPEAKER_00]: but ultimately that's the channel which you need to focus on and in my definition of life-second market strategy what I normally want to focus on is how I can get or provide value to the customers of a brand right which we are working with how they can get the best out of those customer these how they can make sure that they provide value content right which helps them grow further with their customers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I get aligned with when we
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think your definition is considerably better than mine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But we're here to talk about life cycle strategy from through the lens, I suppose, of deliverability, which I think is an area of email that gets neglected too often and is one of the biggest benefits of properly embracing or overall email strategy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so
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[SPEAKER_02]: Just in case, for those listening, you aren't fully aware of the importance of the model of ability.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Why do we care?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's the cost of not caring about our deliverability?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely get aligned with you when you said that deliberately is something which people are over or they would have heard this term, but not something they would be implementing into their overall marketing strategy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because in my understanding, deliberately is outcome of your good
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[SPEAKER_00]: have a good strategy in place, you will be able to make sure that your emails are actually getting placed into the inbox, because it's not only about just seeing that email has been sent, that's only one part of it, deliver it is more than that, but normally brands don't focus on that and then they tend to have the customer experience, the brand reputation, doom and reputation, which creates a larger challenge in the longer run.
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[SPEAKER_00]: is the cost of where they're majorly lag writing in terms of the revenue, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Delivery, TV, there is quite silent.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Your dashboard says deliver that I, you had a 10,000 emails deliver, but rare revenue says otherwise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't get that both connected.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you are, of course, and you just talked about performance marketing versus emails as a channel.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We, every brand is focusing on paid acquisition, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Try to get more traffic, more audience, and get them subscribe to the newsletter's products.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Pay the questions the one which breaks first, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If your welcome emails are landing into spam,
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[SPEAKER_00]: That means that you are paying cack, but not getting anything out in return, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's an investment you made as a brand, but your emails are not landing into the inbox and that affects your world revenue.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If your domain gets burned, right, because of the delivery, it affects the transactional comms, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, let's say, OTP emails,
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[SPEAKER_00]: increases the ticket or let's a support process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have a support team, that tickets will go on increasing because the customers won't be receiving the transaction emails.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The corrupted analytics is one of the areas where you try to do AB testing the experimentation, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you are doing it in our audience who has never seen your email.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure how the brand would be able to get the outcome of those AB testing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the biggest challenge is if you are affected by the
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[SPEAKER_00]: normally the recovery takes around 6 to 12 weeks and you need to do a staggered or a throttle sanding.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just do blast to everyone and that's happening in a revenue critical period, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that sets an area or these are the focus pointers where you can don't keeping losing your new work subscribers, existing subscribers, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately affects your revenue, even though you are marketing automation dashboards says that you have
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[SPEAKER_02]: I always find it fascinating as a livability that you've got like your top 10% of customers who open every email and who buy regularly from you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then you start doing some kind of reactivation or something a bit dodgy and deliverability terms over here, and that destroys the performance of this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's so interlinked, it doesn't matter that
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[SPEAKER_02]: Bethany has opened every mail in the last year and clicked on half of them and reopened them and it interacted in all the good ways possible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If
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[SPEAKER_02]: you've done something else that's led to whoever her inbox provider is deciding that you're bad, Bethany's not hearing from you anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's so there's so much to lose, I always think, we're deliverability.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But then at the same time, if you start doing well, there's so much to gain as well, because suddenly the next Bethany is seeing all that your emails in the inboxes are the
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, so that's what it connects to the inbox trust.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We normally feel that, okay, the email clients, let me Gmail, Yahoo, are the ones which flags your domain, but that's not the case.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are just a scorekeeper.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They just keep your score on where you are rated by your customers and by your subscribers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The example which you gave off battery, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If Beth and he was expecting a certain set of content from your brand and if you're delivering it,
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are lesser chances that they would be marking you as spam, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I subscribed for something which I was interested.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know that what I was expecting from the brand during the welcome series.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting the value out of the content which the brand is delivering.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing which makes me push to mark you as a spam, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are having audiences who is having a consent, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You have taken the consent from them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are regularly opening an email, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are constantly interacting with your emails, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: We eat open, clicks which you refer, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That increases the inbox draws, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to affect your, uh, this score.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So normally brands always feel that like we should try to make sure that Gmail, javimal and outlook and similar other clients are having a good score.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not the case.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You should not focus on the provider.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You should focus on your customers and subservas on what they are getting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: if they would be on Gmail or they would be on any other email clients, but you need to fix that you try to deliver things which are value addition to them and for that what we normally use as a term is called inbox trust right from a customer experience perspective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you don't build that trust.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Gmail spam filter is your customer's aggregated behavior, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I might hit a spam.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I might delete your emails right without rating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And those are all the notifications and signals, which the email clients takes and reviews it for that particular domain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So what I would recommend for a brand to focus on inbox trust, specifically, right, is to focus on the positive areas, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: like how you can start getting replies of your communications, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: How you can make sure that your emails are moved to primary because if I'm interested in your email, I'll move your domain and email into the primary inbox, not marking US spam, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If by default it has gone into a spam, moving them to primary inbox is the signal which is being sent to the email client.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So authentication normally gets you judged, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's the engagement, which helps you to get inboxed into the email client.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I love how you describe that because I think it's so easy when we're talking about deliverability to think it's techy and it's not it's like so much about the end consumers but habits and what they do with your emails which if you're not building that in box trust and sending them what they're expecting and all these other layers of it you're just not going to get the results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And before we go into kind of more of the practicalities of actually delivering this, we are living in a world where they're increasing amounts of privacy changes coming in in the whole of the world, really.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All levels of our lives, very much on the web with cookies, et cetera, very much with emails.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How do you find this is changing how you're tackling this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, and in the learning so far, which I have taken reverse exchanges are completely reshitting the signals, which the lifecycle marketers can rely on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Back in like 2016, 2018, you were still able to rely on open rates, right, which was the signals for you that, okay?
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[SPEAKER_00]: People are at least getting engaged with your email, if they open it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But nowadays, I'm sure you are across that open rates, I just have vanity metrics, and because of Apple's MPP update,
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[SPEAKER_00]: like, majority of the Opens are like not genuine.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So privacy predictions is definitely affecting the overall signals which market is very lying in past, but should not rely now in the current period, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Opens are dead as a decision metric.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just take your
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[SPEAKER_00]: or define your strategies, just based on the open, the new currency in the lifecycle marketing is the actions, the engagement, which the user or the customers are taking on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So focus on first-party behavioral signals, which I recommend to the customers and the brands we work well
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[SPEAKER_00]: activities which is happening on your website, mobile app right, the replies you are getting, focus on the customer preferences right, making sure that you provide meaningful insights and communication to them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Focus on the world business outcome like what you were able to generate out of the email or other channels right, rather than just talking about let
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[SPEAKER_00]: shift your reporting specific to customers extra than camp in metrics because that shows that okay whatever the action stick and back customers how much was the retention, how much was the revenue attribution or the contribution right, specific to the channels and one other way of which is now where is like a hot topic in the derivatives like how you can build the trust through transparency right you need to be transparent with your customers right making sure that
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[SPEAKER_00]: Customers are often open to share willingly the data which the brands ask for right, but brands needs to clearly communicate how they will be leveraging the data right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're asking me to feel a survey or a quiz right, I don't mind right if it's going to help me get better insights and good value in the emails, but if you're not leveraging the data right, no one would be engaging with it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the last and the most important part
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[SPEAKER_00]: of area which will help you to check the patterns right signals right but now with AI coming into all the market automation platforms you should try to leverage AI as much as possible it because AI can help you identify trends and help you with the prediction right I also predict the engagement the next best action which your customers are going to take so
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[SPEAKER_00]: But there are still good areas, which you need to focus on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One suggestion and recommendation, which we have already given it to a customer, two weeks back, was many brands still doesn't have Google Postmaster tools set up, right, because that's your signal, that how I'm doing good into Gmail, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure that you have something set up, which you constantly monitor, and get those signals, because
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[SPEAKER_00]: Every email client is getting mature, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are getting advanced, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of scanning the right domain and making sure that the ex users and the customers are getting the right emails into the right places.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So these are the signals which I feel is going to help the marketers and making sure that even if there's a privacy change, you still focus on the outcomes and adding value to the customers based on the communication you are doing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: love that advice, especially the mention of Google Postmaster Tools listeners to the previous episode before this one will know that Google Postmaster Tools got mentioned in that and I admitted that I had forgotten about Google Postmaster Tools and hadn't looked at it in a while and embarrassingly since that one was recorded and between now and now I still haven't looked at it so I'm going to have to put that high on my to-do list tomorrow because just everybody listening
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[SPEAKER_02]: ish me fail to do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm put it on all your to do list again, have a look at Google postmaster tools and get it set up if you haven't.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So willing to admit my failure there to intern.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for the double reminder, how you talked about the different signals here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have like a deliverability dashboard that you run for clients?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, what do you have on it and how
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[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of the deliberate dashboard, like in my understanding, what we discussed with our customer, it's not purely about the open rate, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because, deliberately, as I mentioned, is just more than the open rate now, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You need to focus on, and there are multiple dashboards, there could be a CM or dashboard, like the chief marketing officer, what they need to look into.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They don't need to look into
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[SPEAKER_00]: the vanity metrics, how much sense were there, how much was the delivery, and how much opens were there, because these are just a single vanity metrics which helps you to know that emails are progressing, that your emails has landed, but actual outcome comes when you start reviewing metrics such as like engagements on your channels, be it activity which helped you
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[SPEAKER_00]: connectivity on email app right or let's say website right how much time spend that on email like after reviewing there are there are tools which are there which helps you to see there are how much time I spend on your email right how much engagement was there be it clicks
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[SPEAKER_00]: be it visiting the website on the simultaneous time when the email was deployed.
19:46.565 --> 19:53.846
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the best part is more around the business outcomes which we try to connect on the dashboard that there is more around the retention.
19:54.226 --> 19:55.546
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the customer retention rate?
19:55.986 --> 19:59.947
[SPEAKER_00]: How much customers we were able to convert from subscribers to new customers, right?
19:59.967 --> 20:06.008
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the signals which need aid for a CMO, rather than just email generate metrics.
20:06.128 --> 20:09.569
[SPEAKER_00]: It also needs to talk about like, what is your revenue per recipient, right?
20:09.889 --> 20:26.967
[SPEAKER_00]: because if you have a healthy list, and if you are like segregating these domains and suppress them and remove it from your account, you will come to know that it's only a handful set of people, or a percentage of people who are actually getting the emails on from your brand domain.
20:27.568 --> 20:32.331
[SPEAKER_00]: Engaging with your emails and also purchasing on your website.
20:32.371 --> 20:37.853
[SPEAKER_00]: So revenue per recipient is a good signal to see that, okay, where do you stand month and month, quarter on quarter?
20:37.873 --> 20:39.754
[SPEAKER_00]: The number of orders, the number of conversions.
20:40.215 --> 20:50.120
[SPEAKER_00]: Normally, I've seen and heard that brands focus on RPC, which is revenue per campaign, but in my understanding revenue per recipient is a good metric versus revenue per campaign.
20:50.720 --> 21:04.427
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the metrics which be focused on when we are sharing a dashboard with a CMO, which is beyond email metrics, but more towards the business outcomes and how email as a channel has helped achieve the goals or the revenue for the brand.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I love that answer because I completely agree you cannot, you shouldn't be thinking about deliverability on its own, because deliverability is a lever we're using to improve revenue per email list member, you know, it's like you can't really separate them, so I love the fact you're talking about looking at them together now.
21:21.795 --> 21:22.215
[SPEAKER_02]: And so,
21:23.056 --> 21:34.303
[SPEAKER_02]: We said we were going to be talking about using our life cycle strategy within our email marketing to deliver great deliverability as well as great results because they they follow on then they just follow on.
21:34.683 --> 21:39.086
[SPEAKER_02]: So how where do you start with building all of this in?
21:39.146 --> 21:41.368
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it about you know creating
21:42.148 --> 21:43.290
[SPEAKER_02]: more segmentation.
21:43.330 --> 21:45.574
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it about creating rules of frequency?
21:45.634 --> 21:48.538
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it about investing in content to improve customer trust?
21:49.059 --> 21:50.521
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do we start?
21:50.541 --> 21:51.843
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do we up our game?
21:51.924 --> 21:53.146
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose it's what I really mean.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What I would recommend is the lifecycle team and the branch would have a governance model to start with, right?
21:59.871 --> 22:03.915
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you should have some model in place for you to gauge that, okay?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I want to focus on delirbitity, right?
22:06.437 --> 22:19.029
[SPEAKER_00]: How I can make sure that there is a mechanism, there is a framework, there is a process which revolves around the frequency which you talked about, the consent, the separation, and if there's any escalation at which is happening, doing that journey.
22:19.409 --> 22:27.355
[SPEAKER_00]: So stronger delivery requires a clear ownership, a consistent process and a governance across the org organization.
22:27.856 --> 22:31.579
[SPEAKER_00]: Majority of the time which we have seen with brands, there is no one who owns it, right?
22:31.959 --> 22:36.383
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like either shared responsibility or there's no one who is looking into the delivery table.
22:36.403 --> 22:39.926
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an agency which has been hired for and constantly looks into it and but
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[SPEAKER_00]: The agency can only push you to focus on it.
22:43.109 --> 22:46.692
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the brand who needs to own and try to improvise.
22:47.393 --> 22:59.966
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing which I would recommend is a clear ownership of how you are going to focus on this framework and governance, marketing CRM, marketing ops, data, IT, everyone should understand that responsibility.
23:00.006 --> 23:00.707
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not only the
23:01.227 --> 23:10.854
[SPEAKER_00]: the responsibility of the email team because it's a common use case where brands feel that okay if it's a delivery concern it's the email team who is responsible about it that's not the truth right.
23:11.334 --> 23:22.842
[SPEAKER_00]: The second one is more on having a clear and consistent communication rules you need to define the frequency limits right you need to have a clear frequency caps and when I say frequency caps people
23:23.823 --> 23:52.723
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 to focus on like frequency per channel right but it should be frequency per customer right you should not have a different frequency for email SMS in app and push it should be across the channel right it it's not like okay i've sent already two emails to let's say there was a frequency cap of four weeks four emails per month i've already consumed four emails for a particular use of i can still bombard them with SMS and in if that's not the right mentality right you need to have a frequency distributed across the channel rather than specific to channels
23:53.403 --> 23:55.844
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other one is a suppression logic.
23:55.904 --> 23:59.185
[SPEAKER_00]: Many times we don't do that clean list hygiene process.
23:59.245 --> 24:07.307
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to make sure that we at least half yearly or quarterly try to review what is our current list hygiene process, which we have in place.
24:07.427 --> 24:12.909
[SPEAKER_00]: How many times we are reviewing any hard bounces, soft bounces, which are occurring constantly, right?
24:13.249 --> 24:15.430
[SPEAKER_00]: And are we taking any actions on it or not?
24:16.170 --> 24:18.050
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have a clear consent management process?
24:18.130 --> 24:22.191
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we explicitly asking for a consent when we are taking the user data?
24:22.451 --> 24:27.013
[SPEAKER_00]: And are they aware that they would be receiving marketing communications from the brand?
24:28.053 --> 24:43.696
[SPEAKER_00]: And when there is a period where you feel that there are certain percentage of the audience, which is not engaging in our dormant, try to have a re-engagement or a winback policy across all lifecycle programs so that you can try to re-engage and if they don't re-engage, the last thing is move them to sunset,
24:46.275 --> 24:51.621
[SPEAKER_00]: And then don't touch it, right, because those are not the people who want to, who would love to hear from your brand.
24:52.562 --> 25:01.032
[SPEAKER_00]: The third area which I would love to discuss about is you need to monitor your risk proactively, right, rather than being a reactive to what has happened, right?
25:01.953 --> 25:06.276
[SPEAKER_00]: 90% of the case is brands focus on being reactive rather than being proactive.
25:06.476 --> 25:09.519
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to track your complaints in general sense, right?
25:09.879 --> 25:13.501
[SPEAKER_00]: Your complaint rate should not be more than 0.1% of the sense, right?
25:13.802 --> 25:17.424
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure people are brands are following, but that's the cut off.
25:17.484 --> 25:19.305
[SPEAKER_00]: Your hard-bound should not be more than 2%.
25:19.345 --> 25:25.430
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are having it, there's something which you need to look into on an immediate business.
25:25.470 --> 25:29.433
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to also build a developer and escalation playbook.
25:30.093 --> 25:43.536
[SPEAKER_00]: team should know that if there is any challenge with the center reputation or in box placement or IP reputation, they need to understand where they should reach out and where they should focus on before it begins to decline and you go to the worst stage.
25:44.556 --> 25:54.738
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to also make sure that this governance is set up as an animal or it's stronger governance protects customer trust and also allows your team to scale your lifecycle programs confidently.
25:55.645 --> 25:58.007
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that, that term governance model.
25:58.027 --> 26:02.029
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we all need one of those for email marketing and so much good advice to them.
26:02.089 --> 26:05.972
[SPEAKER_02]: I love your willingness to share those benchmarks too.
26:06.452 --> 26:15.678
[SPEAKER_02]: Regulistors will know I am frequently not a fan of benchmarks, but in this instance, I'm a massive fan of benchmarks because they are hard and fast benchmarks.
26:15.698 --> 26:20.181
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you know, we know that if you hit that number, then you are about to start getting problems.
26:20.701 --> 26:21.382
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a,
26:22.162 --> 26:24.865
[SPEAKER_02]: could look at the trends, no, you need to look at those numbers.
26:24.965 --> 26:26.848
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love you adding those into the mixed into it.
26:26.908 --> 26:28.229
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you very, very much.
26:28.890 --> 26:36.679
[SPEAKER_02]: And you mentioned, I think the automatic assumption when we talk about life cycle without email is that we're talking about what we're sending.
26:37.480 --> 26:38.401
[SPEAKER_02]: and automations.
26:39.102 --> 26:45.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of what you were saying there was about how the data's coming in and what it's expecting to get from us.
26:45.389 --> 26:51.717
[SPEAKER_02]: So setting the scene right and not just assuming it's fine, but actually regularly double checking it's still okay.
26:52.097 --> 26:55.501
[SPEAKER_02]: And then who we decide to remove from the list.
26:56.282 --> 27:02.183
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was smiling when you said about, you know, the people we're going to sunset, and we're not going to mail again.
27:02.203 --> 27:07.324
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know coming up to Black Friday, there will be people going, oh, we've got 20,000 over there.
27:07.344 --> 27:08.044
[SPEAKER_02]: Shall we send it?
27:08.124 --> 27:09.144
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't do it.
27:09.985 --> 27:11.365
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so that's sunseting part.
27:11.825 --> 27:17.626
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that that kind of like the data in and the data out of the active list is?
27:18.866 --> 27:22.007
[SPEAKER_02]: Is one of the critical things to get right to maintain
27:24.773 --> 27:25.794
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely agree on it.
27:26.315 --> 27:27.977
[SPEAKER_00]: What do a data is coming into your system?
27:28.357 --> 27:31.941
[SPEAKER_00]: That is your marketing also from platform and the one which is leaving, right?
27:32.502 --> 27:34.484
[SPEAKER_00]: You should make sure that leaving is easy, right?
27:34.945 --> 27:42.073
[SPEAKER_00]: One term which constantly comes into my mind at this point is, we always try to make sure that people don't unsubscribe from OEMIs.
27:42.473 --> 27:45.935
[SPEAKER_00]: But if they are doing on subset, let them make it easier for them to live.
27:46.255 --> 27:50.977
[SPEAKER_00]: Because one email address on Substab is fine, versus receiving one complaint, right?
27:51.277 --> 27:53.579
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is going to affect you on a long term, right?
27:53.639 --> 28:01.142
[SPEAKER_00]: People and brands focus on the short term revenue by focusing and not giving that preferences and options to the customers.
28:01.543 --> 28:03.884
[SPEAKER_00]: But then in long run, they affect that delivery.
28:04.244 --> 28:09.207
[SPEAKER_00]: So I normally don't get afraid if there is a higher and subscriber.
28:09.227 --> 28:12.168
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the signal that, okay, you're not sending right things to the right people.
28:12.668 --> 28:15.890
[SPEAKER_00]: You should optimize your strategy rather than being worrying about the game.
28:16.030 --> 28:21.112
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of unsubscribe what I'll do I should remove the unsubscribe button or should hide it.
28:21.132 --> 28:35.960
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the common thing which comes into the mind because everyone wants to focus on the revenue But now when you're talking about the data which is coming into the system and data which is coming out of the system There are there two ways one is have a clear consent management process right because
28:37.048 --> 28:40.710
[SPEAKER_00]: The zero party data and the first party data are the crucial thing for you, right?
28:40.730 --> 28:43.873
[SPEAKER_00]: When a customer is trying to sign up for your emails, right?
28:44.313 --> 28:46.674
[SPEAKER_00]: They should know what they're expecting from the brand, right?
28:46.834 --> 28:48.436
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have that clear consent.
28:48.876 --> 28:52.939
[SPEAKER_00]: Many brands don't eat, I to take consent for different channels and they assume that, okay?
28:53.239 --> 28:58.222
[SPEAKER_00]: If I take a single consent, I'll be able to leverage them on all the channels, but that's not true, right?
28:58.522 --> 29:01.164
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have consent for each and every channel, right?
29:01.424 --> 29:27.067
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the common thing and it's the best thing in my industry because if I'm getting a consent from the user for all the channels, they are interested in my brands and my messages rather than assuming that okay, I have the details of their phone number, I have the they were already downloaded my application I should I can directly start sending them SMS I can start sending them notifications in app and push that should not be the the mindset which we should develop.
29:28.028 --> 29:33.730
[SPEAKER_00]: I prefer that we should focus on more of a quality over quantity in terms of the subsciber base, right?
29:34.131 --> 29:38.712
[SPEAKER_00]: A smaller, engaged audience consistently outperforms a larger database, right?
29:39.073 --> 29:49.537
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure, if you, and one example which I'll give a cross is for a good publication house of a customer, there were database of around like,
29:50.508 --> 29:52.470
[SPEAKER_00]: 12 million users and subscribers.
29:52.830 --> 29:57.715
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we asked them that, what is the last 30 days email send database?
29:58.236 --> 30:00.698
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a 30% of that overall database, right?
30:01.059 --> 30:04.202
[SPEAKER_00]: They were only sending it to that 30% of that 12 million users.
30:04.262 --> 30:07.265
[SPEAKER_00]: Rest of them were just sitting idle into that database.
30:08.386 --> 30:16.773
[SPEAKER_00]: and they were getting charged from the platform, incurred cost into tech, but then they were not focusing on how to get the best out of the rest of the 70% right.
30:17.153 --> 30:21.176
[SPEAKER_00]: So you need to always focus on having a quality audience versus the quantity.
30:22.017 --> 30:28.061
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure that you have a main, you maintain a healthy data base, like removing hard bounces, suppressing long term, inactive users.
30:28.362 --> 30:36.108
[SPEAKER_00]: And inactive definition varies, like people normally have takes inactive as if a subscriber or a customer is not getting engaged with my email, it's an inactive.
30:37.949 --> 30:39.310
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I active on website?
30:39.350 --> 30:40.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I active on your app?
30:41.411 --> 30:45.134
[SPEAKER_00]: If that's the case, email is not making a huge difference to that subscriber.
30:45.154 --> 30:50.337
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to make sure that you come into that view, that person is able to engage with your email.
30:50.618 --> 30:58.823
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm active, if I'm in active on an email for 30 or 60 days, brands directly try to exclude me from an active segment.
30:58.843 --> 31:00.284
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's should not be the good case.
31:00.304 --> 31:00.584
[SPEAKER_00]: You should
31:01.545 --> 31:07.552
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm active on other channels, try to get the best out of it rather than just making them inactive.
31:07.693 --> 31:11.657
[SPEAKER_00]: One other part, it's more around the engagement as a whole, right?
31:12.078 --> 31:15.442
[SPEAKER_00]: You talked about that, okay, in a black virus, I'm going to scenario.
31:15.602 --> 31:19.287
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have 20,000 inactive audience, should we send an email to them or we should not?
31:20.458 --> 31:22.760
[SPEAKER_00]: Many times brand feels that, okay, let's blast it.
31:22.780 --> 31:23.501
[SPEAKER_00]: And what will happen?
31:23.741 --> 31:26.824
[SPEAKER_00]: They won't either be'll get a good order, we won't get any good order.
31:27.144 --> 31:32.269
[SPEAKER_00]: There would be zero, let's say hardly any open rates, hardly click rates, but let's give it a shot.
31:32.849 --> 31:35.932
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fine, but then you're affecting your sender reputation, right?
31:36.352 --> 31:37.433
[SPEAKER_00]: There are other ways to do it.
31:37.674 --> 31:44.199
[SPEAKER_00]: What we recommend to brand is that after you have set up your win back and after your sunset flu is done, if people are still not engaging,
31:44.938 --> 31:45.978
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to do something different.
31:46.959 --> 31:55.821
[SPEAKER_00]: We recommend that you should remove those 20,000 users from your marketing automation platform and try to do a re-engagement paid ads, right?
31:56.261 --> 31:57.962
[SPEAKER_00]: Give them a bid, right?
31:57.982 --> 32:00.603
[SPEAKER_00]: You have the email address, load it into the data, right?
32:00.623 --> 32:01.703
[SPEAKER_00]: Load into the Instagram, right?
32:01.943 --> 32:02.743
[SPEAKER_00]: Target them, right?
32:02.803 --> 32:06.384
[SPEAKER_00]: If they come back and sign up again, that's an active user, right?
32:06.764 --> 32:07.785
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a smaller investment.
32:07.805 --> 32:10.165
[SPEAKER_00]: You are re-engaging a set of user to bring them back.
32:10.185 --> 32:11.726
[SPEAKER_00]: I had then just keeping it into your,
32:12.406 --> 32:15.547
[SPEAKER_00]: marketing, automation platform and charging and getting charge for those user.
32:15.907 --> 32:24.088
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what my re-engagement strategy would be when people are not engaging with my email and I also done with in-back and sunset flow.
32:24.568 --> 32:31.810
[SPEAKER_00]: And the last part which I feel is more important is how we can make sure that you also focus on ROI along with Dilibity.
32:32.030 --> 32:35.270
[SPEAKER_00]: Because once we have a better list quality, your complaints will reduce.
32:35.430 --> 32:37.351
[SPEAKER_00]: Your inbox placement will increase and it will
32:38.211 --> 32:40.873
[SPEAKER_00]: directly and automatically work on conversion.
32:40.893 --> 32:43.896
[SPEAKER_00]: So you will have better conversion when it is a more engaging audience we have.
32:44.216 --> 32:52.343
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are the ways right where you focus on how to get the best out when people are entering your ecosystem and if people are not engaging, move them out of the system.
32:53.363 --> 32:58.948
[SPEAKER_00]: Run a paid ad, bring them back and then you can definitely have your own workflows which will be engaging with them.
32:59.737 --> 33:01.719
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that paid ad strategy.
33:01.879 --> 33:03.081
[SPEAKER_02]: Tintant, this is awesome.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's brilliant picking your brains about all of this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And listeners make sure you stay tuned right to the end.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't miss out on Tintant's insider tips and my suggestions for the ways we can help you.
33:14.613 --> 33:19.298
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, the reveal of what our next series is going to be all about here on Keep Optimizing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Tinta.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So far, we've gone deep into why a good life cycle strategy is essential for great deliverability and performance.
33:31.501 --> 33:44.746
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you get to hours with your insider knowledge about the whole of email marketing, not that you haven't been doing that already anyway, but so with the very questions, your answer can be anything to do with email, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about.
33:44.786 --> 33:46.867
[SPEAKER_02]: Tinta, are you ready for the insider tips?
33:47.403 --> 33:49.687
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yeah, let's go ahead.
33:50.248 --> 33:50.629
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
33:50.789 --> 33:52.092
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's start with Neuby advice.
33:52.252 --> 33:58.122
[SPEAKER_02]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
33:59.172 --> 34:08.236
[SPEAKER_00]: This might sound a little odd, but I would recommend that try to get the boring fundamental set before anything you move into the clever steps, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: When I say that again, you start focusing on authentication or provide or have a probable consent, right?
34:15.559 --> 34:17.079
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is like basic steps, right?
34:17.299 --> 34:18.200
[SPEAKER_00]: And fundamental things.
34:19.180 --> 34:39.610
[SPEAKER_00]: and boring things obviously because delivery is something is not like a topic which market is allowed to talk about but I feel you should start with basic fundamental things set up your SPFDKIMD mark on day one when you are starting today which is easier free and like mandatory if you follow the rules regulations in the compliance
34:40.170 --> 34:50.958
[SPEAKER_00]: and roll your brands into Google Postmaster, Yahoo Postmaster and similar tools so that you can monitor your inbox placements, don't buy a list, don't rent a list, right?
34:51.018 --> 35:04.188
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the last thing you want to do, and also make sure that you have a frequency set up and at least acknowledge the preferences which your users feel, if they say that I need to hear from you on a weekly basis,
35:04.788 --> 35:07.311
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't overshoot your emails to them, right?
35:07.711 --> 35:09.793
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to be mindful of what they're sharing.
35:10.473 --> 35:12.996
[SPEAKER_00]: And the best thing is focus on your welcome flow.
35:13.016 --> 35:18.421
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that is the one which helps you get the best out of your audience when they're entering your ecosystem.
35:18.461 --> 35:20.803
[SPEAKER_00]: Rather than building ten journeys to start with.
35:21.824 --> 35:22.764
[SPEAKER_02]: Brilliant advice.
35:23.445 --> 35:26.127
[SPEAKER_02]: Once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing.
35:26.188 --> 35:28.650
[SPEAKER_02]: So what's your favorite way to improve the performance?
35:29.820 --> 35:32.764
[SPEAKER_00]: Optimization is everything everyone wants to focus on, right?
35:32.784 --> 35:35.027
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like no one wants to focus on improvising.
35:35.508 --> 35:39.093
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel that the first thing which we should focus on is engagement to your sending.
35:39.434 --> 35:41.977
[SPEAKER_00]: If people are engaging, focus on that, right?
35:42.237 --> 35:43.599
[SPEAKER_00]: Double down at the audience, right?
35:43.820 --> 35:45.121
[SPEAKER_00]: But don't overshort again.
35:45.582 --> 35:48.103
[SPEAKER_00]: When I say double down, it's not like you'd send them emails every day.
35:48.823 --> 35:49.644
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to be mindful.
35:50.664 --> 35:52.785
[SPEAKER_00]: Reassess or re-score your list.
35:52.865 --> 35:56.607
[SPEAKER_00]: The hygiene checks, which I said, in terms of how many visits are there?
35:56.627 --> 35:57.927
[SPEAKER_00]: How many clicks are there?
35:58.147 --> 35:59.288
[SPEAKER_00]: But don't focus on the open.
35:59.448 --> 36:01.629
[SPEAKER_00]: So scoring should be based on clicks and visits.
36:02.029 --> 36:04.150
[SPEAKER_00]: Not on the open for the list.
36:04.210 --> 36:05.871
[SPEAKER_00]: Focus on... And...
36:06.631 --> 36:11.898
[SPEAKER_00]: they make sure that you focus on the frequency cap, which has been sad, right?
36:12.378 --> 36:20.508
[SPEAKER_00]: Double down on the actors who are opening an engaging with your emails, half to lapsing, like people who are not engaged, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Reduce that frequency to half.
36:22.230 --> 36:26.052
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say if you're doing 8 campaigns a month, right, active, it's still fine.
36:26.112 --> 36:34.576
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's lapsing, do the half of it, right, and the one which already endowment, try to focus as a win back, right, and see if they're still interested in your brand.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If not, just move them out of your marketing automation platform and try to make sure that you optimize your
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[SPEAKER_00]: market version platform or channel by revenue per recipient and not by a revenue per campaign because that will be the one which will help you to understand that okay how you expose your decay volume right if that's a there's an audience which is getting decayed you'll be able to get the signals from the RPR that is revenue per recipient.
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[SPEAKER_02]: love that and love that you're reiterating the point about revenue per recipient, not revenue per campaign because the latter is a surefire way to end up with one email a day offering 50% of something which is not good, it's just not good everybody, don't do it, focus on the overall picture and if someone listening wants to learn more is there one cheap or free resource you would
37:25.923 --> 37:53.086
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been reading and like I will I'm sure you are across and I've got off him there's a book from Chad White who's like a celebrity expert right and usually talks about email marketing rules I know that's not something which would be quite interesting for marketers to read but try to follow that email marketing rules by Chad White it's somewhere on who to do all those are under I'm not sure the exact pricing but that's something which is close thing to the delirbity Bible right where you can get the basics I can learn about it
37:54.387 --> 37:57.408
[SPEAKER_00]: learn about the Google Postmaster Tool, which is free, right?
37:57.448 --> 37:59.449
[SPEAKER_00]: You would be able to get the knowledge from Google.
37:59.469 --> 38:09.312
[SPEAKER_00]: There's good email communities like live cycle, Luminar is email gigs as a Slack community, which helps you to enhance your knowledge on different topics of around email marketing and also around email delivery.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the last one is, reach out to Mavla's resources and e-books, right?
38:13.833 --> 38:20.515
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a blog section where we constantly share knowledge around email marketing, live cycle marketing, and also around delivery.
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[SPEAKER_00]: These are the areas which I would recommend for someone to have a free or cheap resources to focus on right and try to learn and increase their knowledge.
38:30.173 --> 38:30.873
[SPEAKER_02]: love those.
38:31.073 --> 38:35.175
[SPEAKER_02]: And we did have Chad White on the show a very long time ago.
38:35.195 --> 38:44.299
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's one of our first five guests if I remember rightly so everyone will make sure we I plug that I'll tell you more about that after we say goodbye to Jin Tan.
38:44.699 --> 38:46.680
[SPEAKER_02]: A couple of questions for you before we do that, though.
38:47.220 --> 38:48.861
[SPEAKER_02]: Finally, it's crystal ball time.
38:49.001 --> 38:53.963
[SPEAKER_02]: So what's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for in the world of email?
38:54.183 --> 38:56.285
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone knows the answer about it, it's AI, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone is talking about it.
38:58.327 --> 39:00.810
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not going to talk to different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The inbox is getting an AI layer, right?
39:03.773 --> 39:06.596
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you would have heard about AI in box summarization, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Where jammy and I is giving you the summary of your email in the one line.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So your value proportion must be the one line machine summary.
39:15.124 --> 39:16.385
[SPEAKER_00]: So things as change completely.
39:16.505 --> 39:22.487
[SPEAKER_00]: Initially, it was just like your raw mattress or the standard address, the subject line, which was making a difference.
39:22.767 --> 39:26.189
[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's that one line, all right, which is going to make a much difference.
39:26.289 --> 39:33.172
[SPEAKER_00]: So we each jam in our Apple mill, because Apple mill also started categorizing in box, similar to Gmail tabs in iPhone.
39:33.512 --> 39:35.573
[SPEAKER_00]: So primary placement battle is back.
39:36.113 --> 39:37.013
[SPEAKER_00]: It was for Google.
39:37.413 --> 39:38.434
[SPEAKER_00]: Now it's for Apple too.
39:39.654 --> 40:03.787
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure that you also focus on Microsoft because it is also catching to Gmail in Yahoo, so expect that the mark at Quarantine or reject To become a common term and a working norm so be a baron and be make sure that you are across an aware of it Be me and verify logos which was a good talk of the town like a couple of years back But people on brands are not following it, but now
40:04.427 --> 40:05.929
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not from nice to have it.
40:06.009 --> 40:08.652
[SPEAKER_00]: It has moved towards some basic trust signals, right?
40:08.672 --> 40:11.996
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure that you implement it and also follow that.
40:12.316 --> 40:14.158
[SPEAKER_00]: Engagement data is getting more scarrot, right?
40:14.199 --> 40:19.004
[SPEAKER_00]: So first part, you know, zero party data programs become the most.
40:19.264 --> 40:22.008
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the mode of your overall lifecycle marketing program.
40:22.936 --> 40:24.677
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow loads of good stuff there.
40:24.817 --> 40:25.318
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
40:25.358 --> 40:26.138
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Chintan.
40:26.198 --> 40:28.039
[SPEAKER_02]: So much value in this episode.
40:28.340 --> 40:33.003
[SPEAKER_02]: Those who want to get in contact with you and find out more about mavelas.
40:33.363 --> 40:34.964
[SPEAKER_02]: How can they go about doing that?
40:35.940 --> 40:38.141
[SPEAKER_00]: You can reach out to me on my LinkedIn.
40:38.221 --> 40:42.504
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me if not reach out to www.mavillars.com.
40:42.804 --> 40:46.046
[SPEAKER_00]: If you need support or need some advice, right?
40:46.106 --> 40:48.188
[SPEAKER_00]: Feel free to reach out to Mavillars and feel a form.
40:48.348 --> 40:58.174
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll try to reach out and on an email or schedule a call to hear you out, your PN areas, challenges on lab cycle marketing, be it on the operation side, be it on the strategy side, right?
40:58.194 --> 41:01.116
[SPEAKER_00]: Where you need support with any of the marketing or automation platform.
41:01.376 --> 41:08.703
[SPEAKER_00]: feel free to reach out to a website and either chat on our website or feel a contact us for them and we'll make sure that we reach out to you.
41:09.804 --> 41:10.204
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
41:10.224 --> 41:11.746
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for that Jintana.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being such a brilliant guest.
41:13.407 --> 41:17.111
[SPEAKER_02]: So much to put on our email to do lists and test lists there.
41:17.151 --> 41:17.651
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you so much for being on the show.
41:19.900 --> 41:20.280
[SPEAKER_00]: perfect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Chloe for having me here and it was really great having your conversation.
41:24.583 --> 41:36.411
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure the audience would be loving the content and happy to hear right how how this shapes up out but thank you for hosting Chloe is an amazing host and and definitely want to keep in touch with you.
41:37.112 --> 41:37.532
[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.
41:39.757 --> 41:43.599
[SPEAKER_02]: how much to tint and pack into that episode so much.
41:43.719 --> 41:45.419
[SPEAKER_02]: I myself have a massive to do this.
41:45.439 --> 42:00.105
[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect you have one too and you may well be thinking I need to listen back to that again, because it really does demonstrate how deliverability and performance go hand in hand and how our world of email marketing is adapting and evolving.
42:00.205 --> 42:06.468
[SPEAKER_02]: You can, as was listening again, you can get the our links to the things we talked about, the full transcript and our notes.
42:07.168 --> 42:08.730
[SPEAKER_02]: at keepoptimizing.com.
42:08.770 --> 42:14.077
[SPEAKER_02]: You can use our direct episode short link, keepopt.com for such the number of this episode.
42:14.437 --> 42:18.883
[SPEAKER_02]: That will take you straight to the right page on the site, speed up your journey a little bit.
42:19.203 --> 42:22.627
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you get to the website, you can add yourself to our email list.
42:23.328 --> 42:38.464
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you won't miss out on any of the other things I share to help improve your business and you could also email me back to let me know what I'm doing wrong from watching time just round three because I know we're doing a few things wrong will you spot them will you spot something I don't really I'm doing wrong we shall find out.
42:39.285 --> 42:43.267
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Keep Optimizing podcast.
42:43.367 --> 42:58.195
[SPEAKER_02]: If you've enjoyed this episode, then check out episode 309, a few before this one, where I'm chatting with Kate Hammond about how to work out what to say in your emails, because we didn't really touch on the what stuff we talked about the house stuff today, so I think that will help you build on this.
42:58.796 --> 43:06.100
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the book that Chin Tam mentioned by Chad White, Chad's awesome, really, really awesome in the world of email he was,
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[SPEAKER_02]: our first ever guest on the keypoptimizing podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to hear from Chad, then a scroll back to episode one where we had our first ever interview.
43:17.787 --> 43:20.410
[SPEAKER_02]: Our first series was on email and our first guest was Chad White.
43:20.450 --> 43:21.991
[SPEAKER_02]: He just got mentioned in this one.
43:22.752 --> 43:30.854
[SPEAKER_02]: which is kind of cool because this is the last email episode of this latest email five episode master class.
43:31.394 --> 43:33.995
[SPEAKER_02]: So that means all five of these episodes are now live.
43:34.095 --> 43:37.996
[SPEAKER_02]: Please do have a listen to all of them and get your email up to speed over the summer.
43:38.576 --> 43:46.038
[SPEAKER_02]: You can either scroll up your podcast feed to find them or use the short link, keep up to dot com for a slash email to find all of it on the website.
43:46.818 --> 43:57.580
[SPEAKER_02]: Our next masterclass is, imaginary drum roll, please, not just about AB testing, but about the whole world of conversion rate optimization.
43:57.600 --> 44:05.181
[SPEAKER_02]: We will be looking at all the wide range of e-commerce levers you can pull to improve your conversion rates, and thus the results of your marketing.
44:05.262 --> 44:12.403
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm currently putting together that series to expect stuff on pricing, on personalization.
44:13.825 --> 44:21.172
[SPEAKER_02]: on trust signals and all sorts of different things as well as I'm sure we'll have at least one episode that goes deep into tech ECRO as well.
44:21.472 --> 44:36.827
[SPEAKER_02]: But loads of cool stuff coming up in this next series, you can pick up what we've done before on conversion rate optimization at keepopt.com for SASHCRO and make sure you stay tuned in two Wednesdays time to catch the start of that new series.
44:37.427 --> 44:49.590
[SPEAKER_02]: No episode next week, which means that you've got time to catch up on any of the email marketing episode you missed or re-listen to any of them or share with your team, et cetera, et cetera, and put it into action.
44:50.030 --> 44:55.351
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the most important thing about this podcast is that you take the things you learn in these episodes and you put them into action.
44:55.391 --> 44:59.612
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I know I've already admitted that I learned something from the last episode and I still haven't put it in place.
44:59.992 --> 45:00.293
[SPEAKER_02]: I will be
45:06.674 --> 45:12.419
[SPEAKER_02]: and make sure you subscribe to us or following us on your favorite podcast player so you don't miss out on the next episode.
45:12.459 --> 45:25.030
[SPEAKER_02]: We put live and if you know someone who's particularly interested in improving their email or CRO at the moment, then please do let them know we're covering it because this show exists to help all of you improve your e-commerce marketing.
45:25.591 --> 45:31.116
[SPEAKER_02]: Have a great week and make sure you listen to the next episode so I can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.
45:34.039 --> 45:36.085
[SPEAKER_01]: Access everything, keep optimizing.
45:36.727 --> 45:40.056
[SPEAKER_01]: At keepoptimizing.com, that's with an S, not a Z.