Spec-Driven Development and the Future of AI IDEs with AWS’s Kiro - JSJ 693

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Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber.
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This week, on our panel, we have Steve Edwards Yo yo.
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Yo, coming at you aj style from just outside Washington, DC.
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Yeah. I was trying to come up with your name
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and I was looking at Eric, so my brain kind
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of went wait, wait, wait wait. I'm Charles max Wood
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from top Endevs. And this week we have two guests.
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We have Eric Hanschett, Hello, Hello, welcome back, and we
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also have Claire. I didn't get your last name, Claire
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well gory Oh cool, sounds Italian, so you're probably awesome, all.
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Right, So I sounded French, but that's just me.
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It could be anyway. Do you guys want to just
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introduce yourselves real quickly? Got Eric on before, but Claire,
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you're new to us, so we want to know how
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awesome we are.
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Sure. I'm Claire. I'm a senior Principal engineer at as
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in agentic AI, and I work on all seeing developers
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and agents basically hero ID and the strands Open Source
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Agent SDK.
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Cool.
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Well, and I'm Erica. You've been on here a few times,
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a senior developer advocate at AWUS Huge VIEWJS fan it's
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probably the last few times you may have heard me
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on this podcast talking about it and all the work
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I've done in that community and in the JavaScript community.
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So glad to be here today and talk about some
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really exciting that we released recently. That Claire can talk
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a lot about Kiro, which is our new AI I D.
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So a little bit of background before we get started.
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So we had Eric on a month and a half
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ago somewhere around there. I forgot and found out later
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that he had been planning to talk about Kiro, but
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it turned out it wasn't quite ready for release at
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that time, so we sort of scrambled and talked about
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other things sounded we sounded really good thought. But now
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Kiro's has been released, and I know I've heard a
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lot about it on other podcasts, you know, in other
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blogs and so on, and people have been really raving
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about it. So we're finally here to talk about it
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officially and all it can do for us.
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So I'm curious. Sometimes it's obvious why people name stuff
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what they name it. Right, It's like this does email,
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so we called it email thing? Right? How did you
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come up with kiro?
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That was a AI assisted process? Actually? It actually means
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crossroads in Japanese, and so we were looking around for
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a word that would reflect the sort of new development
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style that we have now. Our development has changed so much,
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so we were at a crossroads.
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Gotcha. It's funny because I go for walks and I
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talked to Grock the whole time, so I know how
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this goes. Sometimes it's like, oh, that's a good idea,
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So do you want to explain what it is and
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how it works, maybe how it's different from some other
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things that it sounds like do the same thing.
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Well, Kiro is an AI powered ide like Eric said,
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but one of the things that makes it different is
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that we've all been kind of vibe coding for a
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bit now, and one of the things that we were
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noticing is that people really struggled to get what they
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wanted out of vibe coding, especially when it came to
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more complex tasks. And there was a kind of an
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aha moment for me when we and was the reason
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that we started Kiro, which was what if developers instead
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of saying kind of commands to an AI assistant of
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how to change their code, what if they just declared
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what they wanted? What if they defined requirements and then
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worked with the AI on requirements and how that broke
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down into individual tasks. And that was really the birth
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of what we call spectrum and development, which we have
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dedicated UX around in KIRO. That's really what makes it different.
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Spec based development is kind of what it sounds like.
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You create a specification for what you want. That could
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be a brand new application, it could be a feature,
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it could be a massive refactor in your code base.
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But you go through this process where you define the requirements,
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the use cases, user stories. You can have the AI
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generate all of those, because I remember writing these by
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hand ten fifteen years ago and it wasn't that much fun.
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And then you go through a process of working through
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the technical design with the AI and finally what tasks
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that breaks down to, and then you have a lot
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of control over steering the actual implementation of those individual tasks.
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And we've heard from folks that this has enabled them
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to at the end of the day, produce much better
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quality code and actually get to what they wanted. I
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said of this very frustrating experience with vicuding, we were
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hearing about where it's like you go ten cycles and
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that it's almost like the AI is not getting it
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getting what you want.
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Yeah, I've experienced that a little bit. I've been using
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cursor and a co pilot. I'm depending on what i'm
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working on. And you talked about it breaking it down
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into lists, And it's funny because cursor will give me
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a these are the things I'm going to do, and
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then it'll check them off as it goes right. And yeah,
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it doesn't always get it right. If it's something simple,
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probably the vast majority of the time it gets that right.
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But yeah, the second it gets complicated, it's like, Okay,
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this isn't working. Sometimes I'm still not quite sure what
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it did or how to fix it, and so I'll
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ask it to fix it, and then it still doesn't work. Yeah,
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So I get that. It sounds like this is a
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little bit more in depth than sort of the process of,
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you know, giving it a single prompt and then having
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it come up with I'm going to do this, and
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then I'm going to do that, and then I'm going
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to do that and then I'll be done.
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Yeah, and it still starts with a single prompt. But
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one of the things that I've noticed is that it's
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really hard for us to describe what's in our head
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from the get go, from a blank prompt text input box.
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And so often what I find is that there's this
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iterative process of effectively the AI trying to guess what
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I meant by this simple sentence and then being able
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to iterate on that and say, no, no, that's not
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exactly what I meant. I actually meant this, or oh,
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that's an interesting idea I didn't even think of. And
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so that process of creating this spec is really helpful
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for refining what it is you want. Often if you
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go to Vibe coding, it's kind of like you know,
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when you have an engineer who's a bit a bit fresh,
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and they always jump right to writing the code before
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actually thinking about the problem. That's kind of the Vibe
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coding experience is the AI jumped into writing the code
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before kind of understand the problem. And so this spec
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driven development helps you to kind of make sure you're
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on the same page and that you know everything that's
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in your head of what you're thinking about the application
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or the future is actually out on paper without necessarily
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having to type it out all yourself. You kind of
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just go through this iterative process of the AI kind
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of guesses writes the spec for you, and then you say, no, no,
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that's not exactly what I meant.
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Yeah. It sounds a little bit like the process I
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went through more as a freelancer than really is a
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full time employee, where you know, I'd have the client
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come to me and say, hey, we want this feature,
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and then I'd ask questions, do you want it to
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do this? Do you want it to do that? And
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you want it to look like this? Do you want
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it to blah blah blah, right, and then there was
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further iteration once we got going where it was okay,
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I have a rough version of this, and then they
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go look at it. Oh, no, this isn't quite what
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I wanted. And so by the time we're done, yeah,
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I had a fully fleshed out understanding of what they
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wanted and could build it. And it sounds like that's
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what this is doing.
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Yeah, And I love that idea of the rough version
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of it, is this what you wanted? Because so often
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we don't know what we want until we actually see
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it when it comes to application development. And you know,
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we've seen across moving from Waterfall, where we tried to
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you know, have all the requirements ironed out at the beginning,
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and that never really worked because those were not Those
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were never the actual requirements that you ended up with
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at the end once you saw the application. We went
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to agile, where we're attempting to move into sprints, where
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we have some capability of refining those requirements as we build.
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But even with something like agile development, it still takes
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so long to get to something that's working that you
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can actually show to a customer, show to a user.
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So it's going to take multiple months. And one of
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the powerful things about AI assisted coding is you can
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get to that tangible result so much faster. You can
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build entire application may not work exactly right, it may
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not be exactly what you had pictured in your head
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to begin with, but you can actually play with it.
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You can you can touch it, use it, and go
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back to your requirements and say, oh, actually this this
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part wasn't exactly right, or oh we forgot this, let's
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change these a little bit and regenerate. And so that's
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been really powerful for getting into kind of prototype driven development,
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and I've found that that ends up with a better
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product at the end of the day because you are
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able to really really use the product very early on
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while you're still forming the requirements.
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Really yeah, I'm kind of imagining how this flows. I'm
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a little curious once it has the spec if it's
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something that's a little more complicated. One of the things
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that I've experienced more with Cursor is that it will
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go and it will do the whole job right, and
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so it gets done and I'm like, I have a
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lot of stuff.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Does it do that or does it kind of so
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march through a piece at a time there too.
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We call that supervised versus autopilot mode. So sometimes you know,
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you just want to get something done right. You just
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want a really simple tool and it doesn't need to
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be exactly right. And I find that autopilot mode is
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going to be the fastest way. That means exactly what
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you just said. It's just going to plow through the work.
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It's going to completely build the entire thing. Supervised mode
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is where you want to give feedback one step at
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a time. So inspec mode, what you can do is
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it generates a task liss similar to what you were
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saying that the AI says, here's what I'm going to do,
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but it will actually stop for your feedback after each
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individual task, and so you can say, whoa, whoa, you
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are starting off on the wrong foot here, let's rewind
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and get this right. And I find that that does
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end up with more of the code that I already
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wanted because I'm steering it along the way. In between
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these little individual tests. I will say that I've noticed
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AI models really like to do a lot of work.
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And so what I find is when they when they
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generate these spec files, it's following all the software engineering
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best practices. It's got high unit test coverage, it's got
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integration tests. It might sometimes say I'm going to try
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to deploy this before before deciding I'm done. And that's
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really great if you are building a production app. Sometimes
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I'm just building a little side project or I'm building
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a little utility that I just kind of need to
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get done and I don't need integration tests. So being
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able to review that list of tasks for it goes
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off and does a lot more work than I wanted
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it to do is also really helpful.
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Nice I feel like it's like an eager intern. It
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just wants, it wants to help you so much and
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do everything for you, and you can definitely be like, no,
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let's supervise this one at a time. YEA, let's list
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delete things we don't need. We don't need three thousand
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integration tests.
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Definitely. I love the eager intern analogy. You sent me
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for coffee and I came back with doughnuts and sandwiches.
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And the whole coffee machine did.
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Your dry clean. So so do you use it now
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or go ahead?
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I was going to say so in reading through the
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instruction chareing what you were just talking about. It sounds
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like there's a lot of it's like dock writing, almost
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like you're planning and figuring out I'm going to do this.
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How much of it? How much does it actually write
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code versus just doing the planning? Is it all of
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the above? I mean could say, for instance, if you
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are a design challenge back in engineer like me or
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a code writer like me who has no design chops whatsoever,
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you know, and I actually have a project I'm working
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on that I really would love to do, this can
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do something like come up with at least a somewhat
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workable UI design based on what you're doing, you know,
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in terms of page layouts and elements, and then you
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naw bar structured tables formed that kind of stuff as well.
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Yeah, it can both write the specs and write the
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actual code for you. And the technical design step is
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really helpful for some of the UX as well, and
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kind of the code architecture, so you can say, what
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front end framework do you want to use, what kind
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of component library do you want to use? You know,
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compared to I mean when I first started out in
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the industry, I was literally writing waterfall requirements documents. What
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I like is that it's not so much about you
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writing these documents as they are kind of artifacts for
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a shared understanding between you and the and the AI,
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and so you don't have to actually write any of it.
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You can keep prompting that, you can keep prompting in
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KIRO until you have the requirements that you want, or
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you can you know, kind of edit them yourself where
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need be. But it's really helpful and really the whole
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life cycle of kind of ideation and then design and
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then actually writing the code.
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Yeah, I'll just jump in. I assumed that I guess
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I've been working from the assumption that it's as capable
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as any of the other systems out there, right, So,
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like I said, cursor and copilots seem to be able
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to do the UI stuff just fine, because I have
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the same problem, right, I work almost exclusively on the
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back end. In fact, for my full time job, I'm
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basically building APIs and then somebody else is doing all
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of the front end work. And so when I'm working
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on my own projects, yeah, I tend to let it
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do the UI UX stuff and it does fine. I mean,
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it's not always beautiful or whatever. But the thing is
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is I can more easily than tell it I want
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this over here, or hey, this isn't working quite the
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way I expect. And a lot of times again back
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to the point of you have to see it before
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you know what you want. Like I'll go in and
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I'll just do something instinctively and I didn't tell it
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I needed that, But then I'm like, oh, I need
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it so that when I click here, it does this
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and so. And it's usually pretty good about that.
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And you can also give it. You can give it
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kind of a Napkin diagram of what you want the
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UI to look like, and it will actually translate that
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into requirements or design statements. So that's pretty cool as well.
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So one thing that I'm wondering having used. Like I said,
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I've used Cursor and I've used Copilot. I'm working on
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figuring out how to get Copilot to work with Emacs.
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So I like that a little more than Visual Studio code.
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But Cursor's based on DS code. Is that is that
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what you did with kiro or is kiro something else?
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It's based on code OSS similar to the Yeah, so
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it feels very familiar. But we were also able to,
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for example, with this this speck layout. One of our
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hopes is to a little bit take the focus of
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the environment away from just the code. So one of
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the things that I noticed as we were working with
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code OSM is it's interesting the way that the colors
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are where code is very much the focus. So in
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that I use a light a light mode, and all
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everything in the UI is gray except for the code,
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which is in white white background. And so we were
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we were looking at this and thinking, you know, actually,
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you don't want necessarily the code to be the focus
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in your ID, and I think we're not We're not
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quite there yet. I think our first step is with
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this kind of dedicated UX around spec based development, where
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the focus is on the spec the design and the tasks.
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But I think my hope at least is that the
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ide becomes a place it is not just about writing code.
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It becomes a place that is more tailored around, you know,
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defining what you want, and then the code is is
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kind of an artifact that comes from that.
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MM I'm trying to imagine to myself what that looks like. Also,
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you're the only person I know that uses a light mode.
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I just don't like staring at black all day.
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So can we maybe go at a high level? I
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don't know how detailed do you want to get. Granted,
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everybody can't really see the ID since we're not screen
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sharing with you can just sort of walk some steps through.
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Let's say you're starting a.
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Project completely from scratch and you want to build some
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you know, maybe something more complex than a two do app.
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You know, who knows what are the steps? Because now,
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for instance, if I come, I'm looking at the ID
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right now, and it looks like you have two different
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ways possible ways to start, it gives you the option
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to be the vibe respect right, So one is chatting
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and one is planning first, So it looks like those
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are two different ways you can start.
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Am I reading that correctly?
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That's exactly right? Yeah.
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Okay, So let's say I want to start with the
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vibe mode. So what am I doing or how what
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are the steps I'm taking.
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That's vibe coding, as I think we're all kind of
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familiar with. Now you're you're prompting the AI to generate code,
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it's going to you know, if you do have any example,
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any existing code in there, it's going to take a
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look at that and bring it into the context. But
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if not, it's just going to start writing code for you.
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Right, So there's this chat panel down here, so this
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is where you start saying, hey, yeah, this is my code.
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I want to add this feature that's right, and make
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it look like this. This is my stack, you know,
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and I'm using you with you know, a level in
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the back end with nursia, jas and tailwind, et cetera.
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That's my preferred stack, yep. And then it's going to
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start generating what is it going to start generating documents
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there that with the output, you know.
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Yeah, so in vibe mode, it's just going to start
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writing code. It's that that very familiar experience I was
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seeing before, where it's just going to jump right into
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writing the code and then kind of iterate from there
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of trying to get the AI to update the code
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into what it is you want it to build. And
360
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so I find that that's very useful. I find that
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the so the Cure team built uses kiro to build kiro,
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and I find kind of across the team that we
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tend to jump into vibe mode if we know exactly
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what we want. You know, we know the code that
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needs to be written. We're just kind of steering the
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AI to generate that code. And it's a pretty simple,
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simple problem. But if we don't know what we want,
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we don't know exactly what code needs to be written,
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will jump into spec mode or if it's just a
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more complex problem. And I think that that takes a
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little bit of intuition today, It kind of takes a
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little bit of playing, and it requires knowing what do
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I think the AI is going to be good at
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kind of one shot right vibe mode to get what
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you want. You want it to be pretty close to
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one shot. You don't want to have to do a
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ton of prompt iterations. But if it, you know, you
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kind of get this intuition of what is simple enough
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for me to give to vibe mode and then anything
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more complex than that that needs to be broken down
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into individuals or they don't exactly know what I need yet.
382
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It is a really good starting place for a spec.
383
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And maybe I'm jumping ahead here, but as we're using bimode,
384
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as Claire said, there's it reads the files, but you
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can't create steering files or kind of the same thing
386
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you might see and other code editors like rules files
387
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that you can set up so it follows certain patterns
388
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as you're vibe coding back and forth. And you can
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even have here generate these steering files for you to
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start off with.
391
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.759
Yeah. I find that that's really the first thing to
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00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.079
do if you're starting in an existing project is generate
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the steering files because it creates this really great summary
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of the code base and what it is and what
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it does and what the architecture is. That really helps
396
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.680
you to save on contact space, so it's not having
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to read a ton of files every time.
398
00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:01.480
Yeah, outputs better code.
399
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.799
I feel like, Yeah, so a couple of other questions
400
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.319
that I have, I'm going to change the topic a
401
00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:13.759
little bit. So both Copilot and Cursor allow you to
402
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.119
change the model you're using. I'm assuming that that's the
403
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.000
case here too. I can say I want to use
404
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.960
Claud and then okay, Claud's not cutting it for me.
405
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I want to use GPT or is there some kind of
406
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auto selection that you do?
407
00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:32.000
Currently the model that's available in the product is clouds
408
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on it for.
409
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.319
Okay, and I can't change that.
410
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:42.640
That's right, But we currently in previews, so things change.
411
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Right, Yeah, and only get better, folks. And then the
412
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other question I had was, so both those other systems
413
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that I've used you get for what you pay. So
414
00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:59.559
my employer is paying for Copilot, and so that's why
415
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.799
I'm using cursorund my own stuff is because get hub
416
00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:06.400
didn't give me a good way to differentiate between credits
417
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.119
that I pay for and credits that they pay for.
418
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.839
So I've looked at setting up a separate getub account
419
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just for their stuff. And then anyway, but I guess
420
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my question is, so you always have a limit on
421
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the number of credits or premium credits you can use?
422
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Is that the same for Kiro? I looked at the pricing,
423
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patient looks like that's more or less the case.
424
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:31.400
But yeah, we have I guess four different tiers free
425
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pro pro blust power and very similar to other pricing
426
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.039
plans you've seen in the space, you get a certain
427
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number requests or credits that come with that, and then
428
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over once you go beyond that for the month, you
429
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can enable per request or for credit pricing.
430
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And since we are in preview, like Claire said, things
431
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are still in flux, things might be changing. We have
432
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been listening really closely. You have a discord community and
433
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.440
there's Reddit communities, lots of different communities we're looking at
434
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hearing the feedback has some really great people in those
435
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:09.720
threads every day listening to that. So we're constantly listening
436
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.000
and so there may be updates, may not be updates,
437
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.519
but stay tuned on that and check our blog on
438
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all the pricing details. Since it's in preview right now,
439
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.559
it's under a wait list. So one thing is we
440
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:24.480
had lots of great feedback when we first launched it.
441
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:26.079
We had actually so many people want to try it,
442
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we put up a wait list and so we're slowly
443
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going through that. Weitlist, adding more people on and then
444
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we'll have more information about that soon.
445
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:39.039
So one other question that I have with this, I
446
00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:41.359
feel like i'm hogging the mic, but I'm going to
447
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keep asking my questions. So I'm kind of imagining. So
448
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.559
the Vibe mode sounds a lot like what I've seen
449
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other people doing with the other agent systems, right, and
450
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so you know, I don't necessarily see a major advantage
451
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one way or the other between this and those. But
452
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then you've got that spec mode, which is something that
453
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is different, right, And so I'm I'm trying to think
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to myself, Okay, when will that really really deeply pay off?
455
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Is it those super complex features or tasks? Are there
456
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.839
other things that I'm just not even thinking of where
457
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you're going to say, oh, well, we tried this with
458
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our you know, with our workload, and it made a
459
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major difference here and maybe not so much of a
460
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difference on some of the other stuff we did.
461
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I mean, in my experience, I would say I get
462
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higher quality code at the end of spec mode. With
463
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five mode, I find that either I have to put
464
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.079
some of the practices in steering rules, like you have
465
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to read, you have to write tests, you have to
466
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run those tests. I find that at the end of
467
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:51.799
the spec mode, the AI has already done that for me.
468
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And like I was saying, sometimes that's overkill. When it
469
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.359
puts that in the task list, it says, you know,
470
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I'm going to write tests and run tests at every
471
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step of these data. And sometimes I say, no, it
472
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just remove all the tests. But but when I'm writing
473
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something for production, I find that I get higher quality.
474
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I find that I don't have to iterate on the
475
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.720
code as much once it's finished, especially if I'm steering,
476
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just steering it along the way, And so I find
477
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I end up with I guess the right thing the
478
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first time more often. And I would say the other
479
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one is I'm trying to think of We have some
480
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examples from the Cure team using Kiro to build Hero,
481
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:42.880
especially in UH some of the code oss UH code base.
482
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This is a massive ten year old code base, and
483
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there's some changes that we've had to make in the
484
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:56.680
in the in our our fork of it. It is
485
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.880
really hard to understand that. And so I was thinking about,
486
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.880
you know, so many developers having to work through a
487
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.119
massive legacy code basis, which we know there are many
488
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.839
of in the world, and having to trying to make
489
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.319
a change to one of those code bases. This is
490
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:17.839
like incredibly scary thing, right, and our experience was that
491
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:22.319
that process helped us to work with the AI to
492
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.880
build an understanding of where those changes needed to be made.
493
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.359
And that was because it was able to kind of
494
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.240
have this planning stage where it looked through a lot
495
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:36.799
of the code, summarized, a lot of the code, figured
496
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:38.920
out all the places that needed to be changed for
497
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:43.119
a particular feature, and that was helpful for the developer
498
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.279
learning as well. Right, they didn't they didn't actually know
499
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.960
where where all these changes needed to be made, so
500
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.240
it was really helpful for that, you know, both the
501
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.559
steering files that were generated for that code base, but
502
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.319
also just going through this planning phase was really helpful
503
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.400
for the developer doing that.
504
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.559
Cool.
505
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.279
Well, yeah, I mean that would make sense, right that
506
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.799
anything more you put into the planning, the better your
507
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.880
execution is going to be on the back end, while
508
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.640
at the same time understanding you know, I just am
509
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.599
working through a large project at my day to day
510
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.079
and no matter how much you plan, there's stuff that's
511
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.200
going to change as you go along. You're going to
512
00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:25.880
find out a library doesn't work or doesn't have what
513
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.279
you need, or here's a better option, or you have
514
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:33.279
to totally scrap it because of other considerations. So I
515
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:38.640
guess if kiro can handle the changes, which it seems
516
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.240
like it can, where you can go and say, okay,
517
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.599
this change, now I need to rescope this and have
518
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:44.400
this then yeah that's awesome.
519
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.880
Yeah. And the fact that you can steer it as
520
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.759
it barfs out all that code.
521
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.400
Yeah, bar is that a technical term?
522
00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:56.640
Trap?
523
00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:59.480
It is when I use cursor.
524
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.200
So just from a training standpoint, I've been poking around,
525
00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:07.079
you know, just on YouTube. If I search, I'll see
526
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:10.160
a bunch of stuff on hero. Do you guys have
527
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:13.640
any particular training videos or step in your channel.
528
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.640
On kiro on like video stuff?
529
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:17.880
Okay, here's how you do this.
530
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:21.200
I could jump in here in this one.
531
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:22.519
Yep. Yeah.
532
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.799
So the full developed Rabits team, We're really excited. I've
533
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:27.920
been creating a lot of content. We have our own
534
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:33.160
Twitch channel, so we've been creating weekly every other week videos.
535
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:35.440
Claire was just actually on one couple of weeks ago,
536
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.559
I believe, and we've been creating. We have a YouTube
537
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.960
channel for kiro too. We have a bunch of videos there,
538
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.920
and we have blue Sky and x account. So yeah,
539
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.920
we kind of hit all the channels up to try
540
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:52.440
to get out and also just going to the kiro
541
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:55.880
dot dev website and then looking at the blogs in
542
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.160
the docks a great way to start.
543
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:01.920
And the discord community is so active. That's been one
544
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:08.720
of the the nicest surprises almost of this lunch. You know,
545
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:13.400
we wanted a way to connect with individual developers, right,
546
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:19.759
but I've been so excited to see really a community
547
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:24.160
forming and people helping each other on the Discord. So
548
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:25.440
that's been amazing to see.
549
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:29.759
Yeah, I have to say, with most of the things
550
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:31.839
that I've worked on, when the people are great, it
551
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:36.240
makes it just that much better. Like it, it's fun
552
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:39.359
to deliver something cool and it's fun to see that
553
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.039
it made a difference. But when you're able to connect,
554
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.200
I don't know, at least for me, it's a whole
555
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:51.799
different thing. Yeah, So where does this go next? Like,
556
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:54.559
what are you putting into kro next? Is there going
557
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.279
to be a you don't even need a developer any more? Mode?
558
00:30:57.799 --> 00:30:59.480
I hear people worry about that all the time.
559
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.839
I mean, some things that folks have been asking us for,
560
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.640
especially in the Discord, We're listening very closely, things like
561
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:13.440
background tasks folks have been asking for, where maybe you
562
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:15.440
do want to set it and forget it for a
563
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.039
little bit and let it go for ten to fifteen minutes.
564
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.039
We've been finding that that mode is useful when you
565
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:26.839
have a project where the AI can iterate for a
566
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.359
long time. So, for example, we have a project internally
567
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:32.680
that is written in RUSS that was done entirely with
568
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:37.400
AI coding, and the Rust compiler gives such good feedback
569
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.319
about the code that you can kind of let it.
570
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:42.680
Let the AI go for ten minutes and it will
571
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.839
work out all the bugs because the Rust compiler is
572
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.440
giving it such such good feedback, and so you can
573
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:52.880
let it go for ten minutes and the code that
574
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.039
comes out might not be you know, massive amount of
575
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:02.319
code of blab of code for you to review, but
576
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:04.759
it's gone through so much testing it's definitely going to be.
577
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:10.000
It's almost always right when it comes back. But you
578
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:14.680
also don't necessarily want to be you know, running your
579
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:17.799
local laptops to you for one hundred percent. For that
580
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:19.799
whole time, the folks have been asking us, you know,
581
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.920
how can we run it? Have the task maybe run
582
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.400
on a different machine, like on an easy to instance
583
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.039
something like that, or just you know, multiple threads going
584
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.759
on in their local laptop. Let's see some other things
585
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:34.240
that folks have been asking us about.
586
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.680
I'm imagining somebody using that Kiro build me Twitter.
587
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:43.920
Oh yeah, yeah, somebody already me a YouTube clone that
588
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:49.160
they built with Kiro. But let's see what else. There's
589
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.960
a lot of opportunity for improvement in the spectrum and development.
590
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.000
I think we're just getting started there. We have some
591
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:58.079
really interesting ideas about how to prove that the code
592
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:02.119
that was generated actually meets the requirements that you set.
593
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.279
I think we've all seen that. Sometimes models will say
594
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.000
that they have met your requirements and they have not
595
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:10.920
met your requirements, and so we have some really interesting
596
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:11.680
ideas there.
597
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.359
Yeah. I've experienced that too, where it says I did
598
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.440
it and I tried it and it worked and no.
599
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:25.720
All right, so Eric, what is the Sorry? Go ahead, we're.
600
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.000
Getting close to the time for picks, so when you
601
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:29.839
to start writing down, But that's fine, go ahead and
602
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:30.480
ask your question.
603
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.880
So, Eric, what is the AWS channel on YouTube or
604
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:35.039
what is the channel for Kiro?
605
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.559
Yeah, there's a Kiro channel on YouTube. I think it's
606
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.680
kiro dot dev. So if you go to YouTube dot
607
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:45.240
com slash at kiro dot dev you.
608
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:46.799
Will o t k Dev.
609
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:48.599
Yeah, thank you.
610
00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:51.279
Yeah, k I R O d O T DEV. That's
611
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:52.000
a good call it yep.
612
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.799
Okay, And do we get the visuals on there? What's that?
613
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.240
Do we get to see your faces on there or
614
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:03.720
somebody else if.
615
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:05.599
You look there today? As of this recording, I'm not
616
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:08.199
sure when this is going out, but I said today, Yeah,
617
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.480
I just did a video with James Ward. It's extending
618
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:13.840
tirost capabilities with MCP. We didn't even get into this,
619
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:16.920
but it does have MCP capabilities, which is I'm sure
620
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.519
you guys done shows on it. But yeah, we go
621
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:22.440
through in this in the latest video in the channel
622
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:26.000
on how to I add some fun MCP servers how
623
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.199
to set that up? So yeah, and there's a lot
624
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.280
of interviews, a lot of great information on there to
625
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:31.800
check out.
626
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.039
Wow, when you're dressed up too, it looks good.
627
00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.039
Yeah, I got I got to wear the sports tacking occasionally,
628
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:37.559
not always just wearing the.
629
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:40.719
Black on black.
630
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:41.880
Look, that's really good man.
631
00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:46.920
All right, Well let's go ahead and do some picks, because,
632
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.880
like I said, I have a hard stop. So we'll
633
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.320
go ahead and start with Steve. Steve, what are your picks?
634
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:54.039
All right?
635
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:57.679
So don't have anything else outside of the dad jokes
636
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.840
of the week, So we'll dive right into those. So
637
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:02.920
someone threw a can of sodat maybe the other day,
638
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:10.079
but I'm okay, it was a soft drink. Simple question.
639
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:14.159
A couple of questions here. Why do hummingbirds hum because
640
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:15.360
they don't know the words.
641
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:16.920
Thank you?
642
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:23.880
And finally another question, why do people say tuna fish sandwich?
643
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:31.519
Nobody says chicken bird sandwich. Those are the dad jokes.
644
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:31.719
Of the week.
645
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.400
All right, you said you didn't have anything else, that's correct.
646
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:42.920
All right, I'm gonna go next. So Claire, you haven't
647
00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:45.360
been on the show before, so I'll just explain. We
648
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:49.960
just shout out about whatever, and so Steve shares the
649
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.920
best of the dad jokes, and then you know, we'll
650
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:56.599
do other things. So I usually pick up board game
651
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:59.840
or a card game, and so I'm going to pick
652
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:03.599
a called The Infiltrators. Infiltrators came out in twenty thirteen
653
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:07.000
or twenty twenty three, sorry, and it's done by Pandasaurus.
654
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:11.960
They have other games. It is a two to five
655
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.079
player card game. And what it is is you have
656
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.000
a certain number of I guess spies that you're trying
657
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:24.199
to or mafia members that you're trying to pinpoint. And
658
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:26.599
so what they are is they're face down cards in
659
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:30.920
front of each player, and so as you look at
660
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.239
the there's a delay in my videos striting crazy. So
661
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.679
as you play, then what you can do is you
662
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:41.840
can so I can give a clue on my cards
663
00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:45.039
or somebody else's cards, but if I play it on
664
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:46.880
somebody else's card, then I get to draw a card
665
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:48.920
back to my hand. Otherwise I have to take a
666
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.039
turn to get more cards eventually. And so usually you're
667
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:55.280
cluing other people's cards, but sometimes you clue your own
668
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.000
because you know what yours is and nobody else does,
669
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.239
so you know. Then you can kind of give people
670
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:04.480
the you know, instead of them guessing over and over again,
671
00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:06.320
you can just basically tell them what it is based
672
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:09.199
on what they already know. And so if I put
673
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.039
put a card on somebody else's they can turn it
674
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:14.320
one way or the other that says there's nothing in
675
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.880
common with this card, or there's something in common with
676
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:20.159
this card, and it basically what it can have in
677
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:23.079
common is either the numbers on the card. And so
678
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:26.159
let's say that you have the fifteen that you play
679
00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:28.920
over there. Well, the fifteen shows all of the factors
680
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:30.960
or multiples of the number, right, So if you play
681
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.119
a three as three, six, nine, twelve, and fifteen, if
682
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.440
you play the fifteen, it has one, three, five, and fifteen.
683
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:40.000
And so if my card is a one, three, five
684
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:45.039
or fifteen, I don't think there were ones anyway. If
685
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.000
it has any of those numbers, then I'll put it
686
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:48.679
down and say there's something common, or if it's the
687
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:51.519
same color as something common. But if there's nothing in common,
688
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.320
then you can eliminate a whole bunch of cards. You
689
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:59.079
can you say it's not blue anyway. So it's it's fun,
690
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.039
and what you're trying to do is you're trying to
691
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.400
expose what all of the cards are. And so one
692
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.639
of the things you can do on your turn is
693
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:11.679
instead of putting down a clue, you can say you're
694
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:14.039
supposed it has a little gun prop and you're supposed
695
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:16.320
to execute the card. But we always just say that
696
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.400
one's the three of red, and then you know, whoever
697
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.599
had it flips it over and says you're right, or
698
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.199
if you're wrong, then there are consequences for that. But anyway,
699
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:28.000
it's a fun game. Board game geek waits at at
700
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:32.719
two point one point one. That's out of five, and
701
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:39.280
so it's it's pretty approachable for people for the casual gamer.
702
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.039
Sometimes I like the deep dark games that are like
703
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.719
three or three point five and weight. But you know,
704
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:47.000
if you just want to pick up a game you
705
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.039
can play in a half hour, that's a great one.
706
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:52.519
And it's just it's a deck of cards, so anyway,
707
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.440
not a like a a poker deck, but it has
708
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.400
its own deck. But anyway, super fun. And so I'm
709
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:01.920
going to pick that we played it, I don't know,
710
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.639
like six times the last time I got together with
711
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:09.400
my buddies. We get together and we play every Wednesday.
712
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:11.400
So we're going to play tonight. We'll see what we play.
713
00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:13.400
What's the name of the game again.
714
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:19.639
Infiltraders, Traders is spelled like traders like people who betray people,
715
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.920
so it's not the typical spelling of the word. And
716
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.000
then I'm also going to pick While I was in
717
00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:29.360
Atlanta last week, I was in the hotel trying to
718
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:32.519
just relax, and so I was looking for a show
719
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:35.239
to watch and I picked up The Twisted Tale of
720
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:39.320
Amanda Knox and Amanda Knox is an American student who
721
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:43.000
was studying in Peruja. When I was a missionary in Italy,
722
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.800
I didn't live that far from Peruja actually anyway, and
723
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.559
that's been kind of fun for me because like half
724
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:52.280
the show's in Italian with subtitles because the Italians are
725
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:56.159
speaking Italian. But anyway, so she gets arrested for murder
726
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:59.400
and so they're kind of going through the trialing their
727
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.360
five episod So it's out as we record this and
728
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.440
it comes out every Tuesday or Wednesday. But yeah, really
729
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:09.159
really enjoying that, and so I'm going to pick that show.
730
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.920
I've also been watching The Terminal List and that has
731
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.199
Chris Pratt in it. That one's a little bit more violent,
732
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.440
but I'm enjoying that one as well. Twisted Tale of
733
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:18.960
Amanda Knox is on Hulu, which is included in our
734
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.440
Disney I've been watching on Disney Plus, and then a
735
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:26.760
Terminal List is on Amazon Prime. So yeah, I'll pick
736
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.199
all of those. I'm trying to think what else. But
737
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:31.800
I'm going to be speaking at commit Your Code conference
738
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:34.960
in at the end of September, and I believe this
739
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:36.440
will come out before then. So if you're going to
740
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:40.159
be there come find me. And then on the next
741
00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:42.159
week I'm going to be at Rocky Mountain Ruby Conference
742
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:45.119
in Boulder or no, that's two weeks later, but anyway,
743
00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:47.159
so I'm going to be around if you're in Atlanta.
744
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.440
Price Picks is based in Atlanta, so I wind up
745
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.599
out there. So just email me and say, hey, I'm
746
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:53.360
in Atlanta. Let me know when you're coming out next
747
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:55.880
and I'll let you know. But yeah, those are my picks, Eric,
748
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.840
what are your picks?
749
00:40:58.679 --> 00:40:59.159
I good?
750
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.519
Well, So last night I went to the movie theater
751
00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:05.880
with my wife and I guess Hamilton has a ten
752
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.559
year anniversary movie that you can watch, So we watched
753
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:15.199
the ten year Anniversary Hamilton movie. That included like ten
754
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:17.880
fifteen minutes the beginning of like interviews with the cast
755
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:20.440
and everything. So that was kind of a fun evening
756
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:22.480
to check it out. Of course, you can get Hamilton
757
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:25.320
and Disney plus the movie, but it was nice to
758
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.440
check that out in the movie theater, which I've never
759
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.320
watched Hamilton. I've watched it at in Broadway, but I
760
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.679
have not watched it in a movie theater, which so
761
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.480
that was fun. So that's my first pick, and then
762
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:37.719
I guess the second pick would be I just went
763
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.199
to Singapore for an AWS event a few weeks ago. Man,
764
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:46.039
I love Singapore. I just love the food, the hawker stations,
765
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.760
the all the amazing gardens. So I highly recommend people
766
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:55.039
who want to travel to a nice destination. Have I
767
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.400
went to Gardens by the Bay, which had this crazy
768
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.360
light show. They do it like once every day or
769
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.920
twice a day, and so yeah, great weather, great food,
770
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:06.840
highly worth checking it.
771
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:11.400
Awesome, Claire, what are your picks?
772
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:16.119
Let's see. So I just finished a book called Custodians
773
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:21.039
of Wonder by Elliott Stein. Ancient customs, profound traditions, and
774
00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:23.840
the last people keeping them alive. So this guy went
775
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.719
and found people who are kind of the end of
776
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.440
the line. There's a woman in Italy that makes a
777
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.800
certain kind of pasta that no one else in the
778
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.239
world knows how to make. Guy in somewhere in Africa
779
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.440
that a certain story has been passed down for thousands
780
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.679
of years, and he has to figure out who's the
781
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:44.800
next person to pass it down to. It's a super
782
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.719
super interesting book, Let's see. I have also been on
783
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.320
the hunt for free public APIs for demos, and there
784
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.800
is a one that I like that is I can
785
00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:57.400
has dad joke.
786
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.400
Yes, thank you, I have actually used that. I'll give
787
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.960
you a real quick backstory. I did a video for
788
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:07.760
view Mastery a few years ago and the way that
789
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.519
they asked everybody to do a demo project. So what
790
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.920
I did was a view app that randomly pulled from
791
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.079
that API and then and displayed a dad joke on
792
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:17.599
the screen. So yes, that's great.
793
00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:19.480
So that's my second pick.
794
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.039
Awesome, all right. If people want to We've talked about
795
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:26.239
like the discord and the YouTube channel, but if people
796
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:28.159
want to connect directly with either of you, how do
797
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:28.679
they find you.
798
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:34.440
I'm on Blue Sky, Claire Libori and LinkedIn.
799
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:38.679
Yep, and you can find me at Eric C.
800
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:39.639
H E. R I. K.
801
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:42.760
Ch on. All the socials are just Eric Hanschett on
802
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:43.599
LinkedIn as well.
803
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:49.400
Awesome. All right, well, thanks for coming, thank you, wrap
804
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.519
up until next time. Max Out