Ian Fraser - The Sharpest Mind in Club Fitting

Scott Rose: Mr. Ian Fraser, welcome to the podcast, sir.
Ian Fraser: Evening boys.
Into The Teeth: How are we doing?
Ian Fraser: Good. Good. How are you boys doing?
Scott Rose: Very good, thank you.
Into The Teeth: Doing very well, thank you. Yep. we're enjoying this newfound career in podcasting, so we're certainly enjoying
Ian Fraser: Yeah, hope
Into The Teeth: the
Ian Fraser: are you enjoying it?
Scott Rose: yeah, yeah, love it. Yeah. I mean it's it's we said it, we had Mark Blackburn on last week and then obviously,
Ian Fraser: Yeah, I listened, yeah.
Scott Rose: you know, yourself. We just we can't wrap our heads around that like some of the g
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: the top guys in their fields actually want to chat to us. So there you go.
Ian Fraser: Well, I in all honesty, if if it it it probably w does help in a way, but I I don't think there's a podcast I would say no to. I mean and and I don't mean that, you know, more respectful to some or or less to others, but I just think, you know, podcasting's great. It's great to get your message out there. Someone's gonna hear it somewhere that it's gonna make an impact on. You know, you see the people in sport that are really sort of your podcasting's been around for a long time. I mean, we've all listened
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: to podcasts for a while, but You see the the you know, the overlap, the stick to football stuff and and it's just it's such a great way to communicate. So I'm glad you boys are enjoying it. It's yeah it's good to see.
Scott Rose: Yeah. And how how's your Golf Asylum podcast getting on?
Ian Fraser: It's good. We we love doing it. It it's you know, it's there's not many times probably I let myself probably a little let myself go a little bit in in terms of, you know, but we'll we'll drop the the F bombs if we need to, if it's the right situation and you know, it just it's a nice informal environment. Mikey and I are are best mates. you know, we've been kinda in this golf industry together for twelve, thirteen years. He was the best man at my wedding. I've known him I literally kicked him out
Into The Teeth: Providing.
Ian Fraser: the base since he when he was a fifteen year old told me he wasn't good enough to get fit. That was the first time I met him when I first moved
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: here. He and his dad booked a fit and then he came in, you know, he's just typical little snotty kid and he came in wanting a full bag of new gear and I was like, Listen, son, you need to go and work on your game. There's the none of this is very good. None of these clubs are gonna help. That was literally the first time we ever met and you know, however many fifteen, sixteen years later we're stuck together.
Scott Rose: It sounds a wee
Into The Teeth: Proven.
Scott Rose: sounds a wee bit like us, Callum, but there's absolutely no chance you're gonna be best man at my wedding. He knows too much. Knows too much
Ian Fraser: You know too many you know too many deep dark secrets to spill those.
Into The Teeth: That's too much. hopefully still be invited, Scott.
Ian Fraser: Ha ha ha
Scott Rose: maybe maybe maybe just to the night time, mate, we'll see. Before we get started, me and Calum have started this new thing called crimes against golf. So little little pet peeves in golf that that annoy you. Have you got any that spring to mind?
Ian Fraser: Jesus. How long have we got?
Into The Teeth: I had
Scott Rose: Ha ha.
Ian Fraser: I mean you don't
Into The Teeth: a list of twenty five yesterday, so and I think Scott had a list of twenty, so there's quite a few.
Ian Fraser: I if I keep it in my lane a little bit, in in the club fit not or golf equipment
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: sort of space, you know, the the the roll of the shaft, I mean, that's got to be right up there. You know, Ventus red goes high, ventus black goes low. I mean, that's are are we okay with swearing? Are we good with that? Yeah. I mean
Scott Rose: You can say whatever the fuck you want.
Ian Fraser: that's that was very apparent to me that that was complete horseshit early on.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: that that that was, you know, something that was just n a non a non factor. And then and that rolled into to be honest, boys, like the whole the whole preconception of of what marketing tells you a golf club's supposed to do, it often does nothing like that. There's too many delivery variables
Scott Rose: Variables.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: for that to be even remotely true. So you know, I think the the marketing shite that gets thrown around, you know, I think that's why in in a in a some kind of sense I I got fortunate enough with our YouTube channel at that time. We just
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: we kinda cut through all that, you know, all that true nonsense and we showed that pretty much all of it was utter, utter garbage. And and we we had some we had some kind of we were in deep waters a butt, not deep waters, but you know, I'll give you one con story for context. We were we'd just done a w a wet wedge test and there wasn't much of that going on. You know, Ping had done their hydrophobic coating on their wedges and they'd showed how much spin they retain and So we done that test and they were absolutely bang on, right? Wet the thing, wet the golf ball, put, you know, wet tissue between the golf ball and the club. That's one of the ways Ping do their kind of testing. It retains all sorts of spin. It's incredible. But the Cleveland RTX 4 was absolute garbage. And I've I've got loads of friends who work at at Cleveland and Strixland. They were on a on the way to an event, and the president of the company, Mike Powell, who's a good friend, and Their head of of RD, I think it was Jeff Brunski. They were, they were all sitting in the bus when this episode launched, all of them together. So I get this kind of like message like fries, like, you wouldn't believe what's just happened. You know, that everyone in this bus
Into The Teeth: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: is watching your video and everyone's go pointing fingers at each other. You know, would you get on a call? Can we talk about it? It's like, listen, you do the test and come and tell come back and tell me if I'm a liar.
Scott Rose: Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: Right? Look, look at a Cleveland wedge today. You've got Rotex face, you've got zip grooves between the grooves.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: You've got you've got like five technologies on the face of the wedge now. And I'm not saying we caused that, but we made them look at it. You know, we
Scott Rose: Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: certainly, you know, created enough enough sort of questions that that they thought about it. So yeah, I think that's a big pet peeve of mine is is just the marketing nonsense and that people have to try and you know, wrestle their way through. And the the other point is is the price. The price of golf
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: clubs has gotten just outrageous, hasn't it?
Into The Teeth: It's ridiculous now. Yeah it is. I'm actually talking about that today. my brother went for a fitting and he showed me an invoice for for his clubs for his and it was just a set of irons forty pitch you made eighteen hundred pounds and I think he put him in a a vent a shaft for his four iron and it was like the four iron itself is like four hundred and eighty pounds. I was like why are you spending five hundred quid on a four iron? I was like how often do you hit that four iron to justify spending five hundred pounds on a four iron. So luckily Scott was the man who ended up supplying the iron so we we changed shaft on the actual boat itself just to try and make it a little bit more feasible for my brother. But yeah, it's ridiculous. The cost this stuff's just crazy.
Ian Fraser: It is, it is. It's and it's it's difficult, you know. I I think the companies don't make it easy on us. I I can I can talk first hand about the margins in it. I there's no one out there getting mad rich, you know, d
Into The Teeth: No.
Ian Fraser: you know, g on golf clubs. there really isn't.
Scott Rose: No, that's I mean I I'm a sales rep for a club manufacturer and yeah, a hundred percent people I think customers think that pros make bundles on a on a golf club
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Scott Rose: and it just simply isn't true.
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Yeah. No, that that's it. So, you know, it's it's difficult. I think you're you're why you see the direct to consumer market, you know, becoming popular and then they tether themselves to the Brian Bros and Grant Horvath and those guys and to the Takomos of the world and then, you know, the way they go about it and yeah, the stuff's not as good as it's not as good as a P seven ninety, it's not as good as a Cobra, you know, three D printed iron. But how much how much is the drop off on performance? It's it's not
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: It's not more than it's not more than six, seven percent. Not more than probably five
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: percent. and it's a third of the price. So I can see why people go that that direction, but you know, that that can lead you into some of the other problems around fitting is that do you end up with the right things in the first place? You know, the the
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: right clubs in the bag in the first place. It might tick the box from a cost perspective, but down the line you you ch end up changing those clubs quite you know, you know, it's it actually costs you money. You know, it's cheap and it's cheap up front, but it's costly down the line. You'd be better off getting the right stuff in your hands, you know, early doors.
Into The Teeth: Yeah, that's horse, yeah.
Scott Rose: Totally. So you you touched on kinda your your THD time, but I think we're both right interested to know how you go from a PJ assistant at Helensborough
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: to I'm gonna say probably the brightest mind and sharpest mind in Clubfitting.
Ian Fraser: Cracky, Scott, I don't know about that. I
Scott Rose: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: mean, I think I might have had a microphone for a wee bit longer than others and it maybe seemed that way, but I do know it was just so I grew up in Helensborough. I actually never played golf really as a kid. I was played football, actually played badminton at a high level. that was the kind of two sports
Into The Teeth: Alright, okay.
Ian Fraser: I played at a decent decent level. I kinda was fringe national team on the badminton side. I was I had a chance to kind of play I probably had the chance to go to you know probably division one division two football teams to go and play with them at the age of like you know 17 18 and and try and work into that way but I I my first foray into golf was a a holiday with my my mum and dad my brother had went on vac vacation fuck holiday with
Scott Rose: Ha ha.
Ian Fraser: with his mates to Ibita and I get stuck going
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: to Portugal with my mum and dad. So my dad said, Listen, just come to the golf golf course, you know, you'll enjoy it and stuff like that. So I did it and I loved it. And I was probably age fifteen and I came back and he got me a membership and and that was really it. I fell in love with it. I I probably
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: crammed I I you know, in two years I'd got down to a two handicap, but I'd crammed probably seven, eight years of golf into two. I just it was all I'd done. And really equipment was a big, big part of it. I was obsessed with those Edwin Watts magazines and Goldsmith magazines and just, you
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: know, how could you know you get your gear to help you? Cause I was in a rush to get better. All the other boys at my
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: age were were really good, three, four handicaps, and and I was literally I could hit it, but I was, you know, I was starting off at whatever I was, 24 handicap was probably my first one. So it was it was really that accelerated sort of desire to get better and had good people around me. You know, Colin Del Gleish was was obviously a Helmsborough Golf Club member.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I spent a lot of time with him. Gordon Sherry was he he and I were assistant, you know, pros together. So I was I was actually an assistant at Cardras. so even though I came from Helmsborough, I was
Scott Rose: Okay, yeah.
Ian Fraser: I worked at at Cardas. And and even it there, I mean the Cardras team at that time, it was a couple of boys. I don't know if you remember any names from that you know, the the kid at early two thousands, but like Fraser Bone, Robert Taylor there was Johnny was Johnny's last name, Johnny No, i it basically three of the Scottish national men's team played out a card or so it was it was Johnny forget his last name. Anyway, Stevie Carmichael, there was those great players. So a Charlie Green, I mean probably our our most decorated ever, you know, Scottish amateur. I played golf with Charlie every week. And and equipment was just you know, it was everywhere for those guys. Like they were always talking about Tinker and Charlie was up at John Letters every every other day, trying to get a new driver to squeeze him out three more yards and I was just I was surrounded by people who were into gear. So making nothing in the Pro Shop, I decided to do my own repair shop. So I'd get the Goldsmith
Into The Teeth: Right, okay.
Ian Fraser: catalogue and you know, I would sort of like bring in some Grafloi Blues, some, you know, Pro Four sixty five golds, that sort of thing. And I would do repairs and I ended up buying a loft and do you remember the yellow paper? Ever
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: remember that thing? Remember the old yellow paper? I remember buying a loft and line machine off the yellow paper, driving East Cobright to get it. it's it's actually still at Hellsra Golf Club right now. So it was more just like I was just fascinated by gear. And the reality was I wasn't very good at golf. So I kinda had to do everything I could to try and, you know, give myself an edge. And and I found
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I could probably uncover more sort of performance benefits through equipment than than I could any other way.
Scott Rose: I think that's quite interesting because I mean you'll know as well as me and Caldo that, you know, if you go back probably twenty five, thirty years, the PGA pro was often the best player at the club.
Ian Fraser: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rose: And maybe not the best businessman, maybe not the best coach, maybe not the best club fitter. Well, maybe didn't have the tools back then to be fair, but they often got jobs at golf clubs based on their playing ability and their playing record.
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: So but now obviously it's different, you know it's we could rant on about the fact that they let people into the PG now with playing off six. but you don't obviously have to play at a elite level to be a good coach, to be a good fitter, to be a good PJ professional.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: so it's quite nice that that's time 'cause I would have fell into that same boat as you, Ian. I was never an elite amateur, I was never someone that I I mean, I think we all start playing golf with the dream of playing it for a living, but reality comes
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: out quite soon. And then you start thinking,
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: Well, how am I going to make a career out of this?
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Definitely. I I I loved coaching as well, I will say about that. I you know, I really enjoyed coaching. but it it was it was gear. It was always just you know, and just timing I think a little bit as well. At that time, golf equipment was really changing, you know, from the little heads to the bigger heads. You know, yeah, I I I just think there was a lot of moving pieces in in the equipment space, you know, the the evolution of launch monitor technology.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: You know, I think I started with Tailor Maid in two thousand and four. I got my first track man in two thousand six and and started kind of working with that and understanding more relationships between sort of the li golf swing and and ball flight and the dynamics involved and what was what what could create change and and you know, working with the the the player a little bit more as well just to try and kind of you know, obviously help them understand their tendencies and the relationship with their equipment to drive the the golf swing. So You know, I I I've always had this approach that even as a club fitzer, I'm still I have twenty five percent of my focus is on the delivery and the biomechanics and how I can sort of keep an eye on on making sure that is stable and and then I've got
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: seventy five percent of my head is is in how does the equipment play its role. So I and that was something Andrew Rice taught me. probably in about two thousand and eleven or or twelve. You know, he he could have helped me understand that his role was to understand a little bit of the equipment, a lot about the swing. And mine was a little bit about the swing and a lot about the equipment.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: and I think that that was always kinda a bit of my philosophy anyway.
Scott Rose: So I'm maybe jumping ahead actually, but do you think that's like the recipe for a a great club fitter is they have to be able to understand how certain things influence what the club face does and what the ball does?
Ian Fraser: Without a doubt, Scott. Without a doubt. If you don't know how to get it back to impact bet better, then you you really not got much of a chance. So many people are worried about what's happening downrange and how do they affect the ball speed, the launch and the spin. And
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: they're not worried about how to get the club there in the first place. How do they how do they create you know, I like I I'd be more interested in technology that delivered pre impact data than than technology that delivered post impact data. or a or or impact data. you know, and that's that's kinda how math philosophy has evolved. And I think that's kinda the way we're gonna see Clubfitting really change and evolve over the next, you know, probably ten years and beyond is is we're gonna have way more technology that tells us how we get to a better impact rather than
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: just guessing. Because right now you're at the disposal of of either a good or a bad club fitter. Right? They're they're educated or they're not and it's just unfortunately the reality is now no one No one will play the long game at at getting there in terms of doing the hard yards. And I'm not s like I'm a young, old person. I've been doing this, I've been doing the club fit and stuff for you know, it'll be the guts of twenty-five years. But people
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: probably wouldn't look and go, he'd been he's been doing the same thing for twenty-five years. You know, and I think that's what helps me a little bit talk about, you know, when Ben Hogan used to do his loft and lies, he used to do, you know, this was his process. When Bobby Jones talked about what he liked the shaft to do, he he used to talk about feeling the shaft load before he would start it down. It was it was a timing mechanism for him. So I you know, I I can still go back and talk about the old gear and I have a bit of a
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: an eye to the future as to what's coming down, you know, down the line. And that's probably my advantage at at this point, is that I don't think
Into The Teeth: Definitely.
Ian Fraser: people coming into it are gonna be as patient as as that.
Scott Rose: And you mentioned obviously working with Taylor May, I think you were on the road as a tech rep, is that right? Yeah.
Ian Fraser: Yeah, yeah, I j you know just started off on the the the demo demo runs up to you know King's Lynx on a Wednesday night freezing cold and down to American Gulf
Scott Rose: I know it well.
Ian Fraser: Sunderland, you know, the next day. But you know, I loved it. I genuinely loved it. I and I was probably the one that like you could call me on a Tuesday night and say, right, drive to Livingston. Pick up the demo matrix. You've got a demo day at American golf leads in the morning. I'd be like, I'm your man. Go let's go. And I would never have an issue doing any of that stuff. I just loved it. You just c I couldn't get enough of it.
Into The Teeth: commitment that Livingston
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Into The Teeth: to Leeds that's that's a trip and a half that
Ian Fraser: You know, and and I just again I just always say like to our boys, in the especially in the T X G days, you know, I'd I'd I'd again by being a young old person, I would say you know, the you don't know how fucking lucky you've got it. Right. You know, you y you don't know
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: how you know, your launch monitor is is the best of gear. You're lofting line machines five yards from you. You've got a two thousand square foot build shop the other side of the wall. There's nothing
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: you don't have or need. whereas, you know, what do you what do you do to fix someday when you're you're up at you know, at a driving range and Inverness, you know, you've got to just figure it out. Your problem solving skills improve a lot.
Into The Teeth: I wonder if that's I don't I don't know. I I've I've obviously spoke to a few boys that are currently going through their PGA training at the moment and they obviously now use the track man, I believe, for
Ian Fraser: No.
Into The Teeth: their custom fit examination. Obviously, well when me and Scott were going through it, that technology, you know, it wasn't part of the the programme at that time and it obviously it was not part of the programme in your time either. So you know, i there's a beauty to almost learning how to do it without the technology as well and I don't know if in this day and age of the guys working their way through the programme now that's going to get left behind and it's just all going to be technology based and like what you say when the technology's down or that's not there, what do you do? You know, if these if these guys coming through, I don't I don't know if that's where the PGA is going to go or if they are still touching on the the manual custom fitting. But yeah, I find that quite interesting.
Ian Fraser: You you need you need the ability to do both. You you really do. I mean, what happens if your launch monitor stops working or you know yeah,
Into The Teeth: yeah.
Scott Rose: Totally, yeah.
Ian Fraser: indoors obviously that's that's a challenge 'cause that's the experience. But I'll never forget d do you ever remember the name Lorena? Lorena Chor. It was Julieta Granada. she was L P G player.
Scott Rose: If you'd if you'd if you'd said Lorena Ochoa I would have said yes, but
Ian Fraser: You would have said definitely. I wish it was Lorena Chow. No, Julietta Granada was
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: she was she w she just won the highest purse in the history of the LPG. and I remember doing some work with her at Grand Cypress in Orlando and it was a tailor made performance lab at the time, and I remember the the launch monitor wouldn't work. And but luckily enough we could take her outside and you know the
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: numbers were just none of it was really making sense and she was hitting some and you c you just tell just Well, let's switch this off, let's go out onto the range. And I think being able to sort of like I don't know if a fitter could really do much of that nowadays where you could kinda take them from an an environment of of loads of technology. You know, in those days it was the Matt system, which was basically what we know now as gears. so she was coming in for that experience and, you know, she's a top L P G player. She w she's working with Folier in in Orlando and d you know, we go out in the range and you know, really got her gear dialed in and, you know, she played some great golf. But I just I don't know if if that would be that easy for a lot of people to navigate without the tools that people have at their disposal, you know, i in in the fitting environment now, whether that would be that easy easy to do. But it was bread and butter because I spent more time at that time doing it without tech than I had with the best tech.
Into The Teeth: The was
Scott Rose: Do you do you think
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: though Ian that you know, people would think that Tour pros need data, but do you not think it's probably easier
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Scott Rose: to fit a tour pro without it because they know what they like. They they know what they want to see, they know what they want to feel.
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rose: Whereas your average Joe, I think, if you were to say, that driver's spinning at four thousand RPMs, they'd like, okay, what what does that mean?
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: Absolutely. No, it it's so true. You know, the the the the tour pros they they they know what they want to see, don't they? They they they know
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: what a good ball flight looks like. They know what kind of the feel is when they when they don't feel like it can go left or things like that. And you know, I s sometimes thinking the bay, you you've got to really hold the hands of of the player who's in front of you. And yeah, I I often say it's like it's like having a cup of tea for the first time and you say to somebody, you you know, how'd you like your tea? And they go, I've never had tea. And I go, Well, d would you like milk? And they're like, I don't know. And so you give them
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: some milk. How does that? Well, it's okay. Give them a sugar. that's a wee bit better. Give them two sugars. That's magic. And and it's like fitting can be a bit like that sometimes. It's just like, well, let let me change the profile of that shaft. Okay, let me let me change the head profile. Let me bring the CG a little further back, help the head to rotate a little bit. Well, how does that feel? Hi, that feels like I really got control of the face now. And it's like they they don't know what they don't know. so you've got to sort of lead them down that line. Working with tour players is is just an entirely different, obviously, animal in itself. but the other part of that is as well that people don't realise is they know way less than you think to.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I I remember working with Gary Woodland and you know I'd said to him, he was working with Butch Harmon at the time, and I said, you what what do you and Butch look for in the launch monitor? What's your angle of attack, dynamic loft? You know, is is there a part of the head you like to work in to offset your your delivery miss? He's like, Ean he's like, I know nothing about this stuff. He's like, honestly. He's like, you you just
Scott Rose: Just no h golf boats.
Ian Fraser: Yeah, I he's like, I know how to hit it three hundred and thirty yards and you know, and he he literally knew nothing and and you know, his his caddy's kinda giving me the shut the fuck up, you know, s don't
Into The Teeth: Right.
Ian Fraser: you know, stop talking, don't don't get in his head, you know, about all this sort of stuff. And so we
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: had to kind of rein it back in a little bit in the technical stuff and You know, I had to tell him much less and I was I was back and forward to the trailer, you know, shortened shaft, changing the headweight, bringing the loft down, you know, making loads of little changes for him, but I didn't tell him what one of them was. You know, I just
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: I just he could just see the ball flight getting
Scott Rose: I think.
Ian Fraser: better and better every s every change.
Scott Rose: think that's an art form, isn't it? Is knowing the person that's in front of you. I was listening to a podcast,
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: I can't remember what it was, but someone had said the best advice they were ever given is become a world class room reader and you'll go places. So read the room, know
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: who's in front of you, know how to speak to them, how to approach them and you'll
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: go places.
Into The Teeth: Definitely.
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Yeah. I I think if you can if you can I mean I think intuition is a bit of a gift for a lot of people, you know, being able to read people's energy, when to talk, when to shut up and and and the fit and bay can be a bit like that as well. You know, yeah, I've always felt like you're half a psychologist in there. you know, working with somebody's emotions up and down and you know, working with junior golfers and parents. I mean, I'm sure you've had a bit, you know, experience with some of that too, you know, and
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: y you're trying to work a relationship, you try to be soft with a kid, but tell the You know, the old man to shut the fuck up while you kinda get to work and there's a bit of that, you know, that that kinda goes on as well.
Into The Teeth: How would how would you how would you say your formula almost changes then for for you know custom fitting a junior, an adult, an a a high level amateur, a professional? Is it kind of the same formula you use and you just change your personality a little bit to read the read the person that's in the room at the time? Is it the same kind of basic structure you would use to get to the the end plot product or solution?
Ian Fraser: No, I definitely don't think so, Calum. It's it's not as black and white or as structured as that to be honest. It's just it's like, you know, walking into any job with a toolbox and you know the toolbox is a skill set you've built up until that point, but it you know, you don't really know what the job looks like until you get to it. And then once
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: you see the job you you reach into the toolbox for the right set of tools for that time and that might be that might be your soft skills with how you deal with someone and you know, I think when people used to come in and they pay Whatever they pay you know w when I was running the company at TXG, I would make fewer fits available, so we had to charge a little bit more for it. And people would fly in from all corners of the world to do it. So they'd they'd be they'd be all in for a right few quid before they got there, but they were nervous. I mean they were yeah, there would be be some people who were physically shaken. You know, that I I don't know if it was that they'd kind of committed this amount of money, they'd maybe been a fan of the the YouTube channel, whatever it might be, but Half of the job for the first hour was just settling them down. So
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: just getting them getting them, you know, and if you don't have those soft skills before you let your technical skills loose, then you know, you're gonna waste a lot of time and money for them. So if you don't have that in the locker,
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: so ever every single one is is is ultimately different. And I think over time to that as well, Calm, I think I've learned that I've learned not to try to please the launch monitor too much.
Into The Teeth: Right, okay.
Ian Fraser: You know, just try not trying to optimize every number to the nth degree. That doesn't
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: always lead you the best outcome down the line. You know, you can push spin too low at times, you can you can push launch into an uncomfortable spot. If you don't manage the the standard deviation more than you you you manage the even, you know, the the averages. You know, a lot of people get caught up in averages, but you know, fifty yards left and fifty yards right is right down the middle.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: But you if you manage that standard deviation, you you typically do a much, much better job of of which one is is doing a consistently good job.
Into The Teeth: Have you ever found yourself kinda stuck down the rabbit hole before, with focusing then on too much like, you know, the spin or or or a number on that track, man, where you think, wait now this is this is taking me down a bad route here and I take kinda rethink how I'm fitting here and and learning obviously on the job there as well. Have you ever been kinda stuck in that rabbit hole?
Ian Fraser: Without a doubt, without a doubt. You know, the I think the early days of of optimization, you know, and all the tools you've got in a track man, whether it's an optimizer or or whatever it is, you know, and you you kinda look to try and get that trajectory through the blue and, you know, make sure on that everything's in the right zone. But Yeah, yeah, and I think that's
Into The Teeth: Yeah. Ever since then lining
Scott Rose: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: that's, you know, a bit of again another one of those things that probably fitters do too much and forget what it what the job is and it's to to take it to the golf course and shoot a lower score. So I can
Into The Teeth: Yeah. It's a transfer skill.
Ian Fraser: that's it. And and my philosophy a little bit is you the the job only starts when they leave with the golf clubs. Because at the
Scott Rose: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: end of the day they've got to go and you know, apply that. If they go and play terrible and worse and and you're not monitoring how they play post fitting, I would say that's my biggest thing now is how how do you sort of retain that relationship post fitting? 'Cause the fitting is is is fine, but you know, y you're never gonna build a reputation or a brand off of people who go, I went there, spent five hundred quid in a four-hour
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: and you know, and I hit it once around and I just, you know, those those sorts of things aren't gonna help. But there there's a lot of good there's a lot of good data now. That that's the thing, you know, I lean into the guys at Arcos a lot, I ask a lot a lot of questions of them, you know, what is the most
Into The Teeth: Right, okay.
Ian Fraser: used club in the bag? Which clubs should I really be looking to fit off of? think the whole fitting off a six or seven arm thing is complete shite. you know,
Scott Rose: Yeah. Top.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: extrapolating the whole set off of one club. I look
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I've done it for twenty years, so I, you know, I'm a bit of a you know, I I didn't have a better solution at the time. But
Scott Rose: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: I do think there's a lot of lot of holes in in the current club fitting sort of process.
Scott Rose: And the I mean the club fitting environment, similar to the teaching environment to a sense, is in such a I think it's in a controlled environment that doesn't replicate the golf course. And I
Ian Fraser: Hundred percent. Yep.
Scott Rose: I I was on the road for a few years with Callaway as a tech rep fitting. And that was always my big thing was if I was at a golf club and I was on a driving range with someone and I could fit them for a driver and Rather than getting them to commit there, I would say now your pros actually got this in his demo kit. I would recommend
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: going out and hitting on the golf course because it's fine for us doing it when you've hit seventy five balls with me, but once you get on the golf course and I'm normally short of that bunker, now I'm past it or from there. So how do you I mean you've touched on it with keeping in and tabs on their stats, but how do you combat that balance of, you know, the control environment of the one of your fitting studios which is indoor to then Out on the golf course. And the variables.
Ian Fraser: I well, I I'll kind of in a roundabouts it way tell you that for years I've been obsessed with elite sports and elite team performance and training and and things like that. So you ever listen to any of those you know, you listen to Kobe talk about how the Lakers practiced, or you know, Roy Keane and and Gary Neville talk about how that that Man United team the gate the game was the easy bit. You know, the the the training was the hard but you had to get through Monday to Friday to get to Saturday. And then by the time you got to Saturday,
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it's easy. you know, I I think making the testing protocols more robust is is going to become essential. and there there's a lot of ways that kind of really my job or my obsession for the last two years since I left Club Champion has really been thinking about nothing other than why this process is as broken as it is, and how can we make the the the testing environment really difficult, really, really stressful in all honesty? And how we can then give them golf clubs that alleviate that once they come to play. It's almost like playing is is easy. How can we we show them their worst fears and then
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: let them see that this golf club will will help you from that miss out the right when you there's out of bounds or water or whatever it is. And You know, you stand and you can't aim far enough left and you just end up wiping it, you know, as badly as you do. And and you can f fully stand up and trust this thing that, you know, it it's gonna have your back. If you do slightly heal it, you know, the face isn't gonna
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: be left wide, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, I I've been obsessed with trying to redefine what a club fitting is, which is kind of in the next four months, what what kind of we hope to
Scott Rose: Okay.
Ian Fraser: roll out.
Scott Rose: Excited. Excited to see what what you come up with. I'm positive you'll come
Into The Teeth: I like that. Definitely.
Scott Rose: up with the next best thing as well. Well Sorry going no, I'm sure you will. Obviously you t
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: What we hope so. That's no, I I just yeah, that's Clubfitting I think is is in a in a phase of it hasn't changed since two thousand and I I would probably argue since two thousand and four or five, you know, we were using flightscope launch monitors, even back to the the Matt I system that I was could have first using at TaylorMade, vector launch monitors, and then track man and foresight. it really hasn't evolved and it's it's a bit lazy on the club fitting, you know, industry to have not evolved as much as it has. Look at I I always think club fitting follows coaching. And you look at someone like how does James Light set up his bay, you know, at his his studio in in Louisiana. you know, he's he's had gears for years, he's got force plates, he's got his his track man, you know, and he's looking at multiple things to to create the the full picture of what's actually going on with with the the player. and you know, we have no we don't do anything to measure the two connection points that the golfer has, which is the grip and the ground. We we don't have any we don't have any way of measuring that in the club fit and bay. How do you how do you kind of put force into that grip? How do you put force into the ground? And what role does the club play in creating more force? Because we we, you know, if if we can get more force we can we can create a a little bit more horsepower. We definitely
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: know that. and then obviously face control, we you know, we know if we get if we gain ultimate face control, we're gonna play this game at a really high level. Like when I listened to Blackburn talk, you know, on on the podcast, you know, that's what he said. elite club face control is the thing. It's not it's exactly the same in the club fit and club fit and bae. Vertical
Scott Rose: Totally.
Ian Fraser: and horizontal club face control is the king. Next is strike point, right? And then you can kinda go on so on and so forth from there. So Just yeah, we we don't do enough to control the all the variables that are at play. I just think everyone's so obsessed with launch monitor numbers.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: And y you spoke a little bit about strike location. Would you say that's been I mean, s speaking specifically I suppose about driver, do you think that's been the biggest advancement in the last five years is ball speed and spin retention on, you know, toe and heel strikes?
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I in in in good and bad ways though, Scott, I I think the I think the O I story was was a crocchite. for the most part.
Scott Rose: Yeah, totally. The whole MOI thing winds me up.
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Yeah. There there are so many more important things i in in the grand scheme of what we're looking at than than worrying about where the MOI is. I mean, you know, I I like I'll always say to people, where do you think where do you think the the Moi is from from a front to back placement, right? So you've got the the low spin ping head, right, G four forty
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: L S T and you've got the the G four forty K, right? The the the the The max MOI product out there. I'll say to them, how far do you think from in physical distance is that CG location from front to back on that head between their low spin product that's supposed to flatten the flight and kill the spin and their max MOI product? It's less than two, it's less than two dimples. It's f it's five millimeters.
Scott Rose: Gotta be a cup. Yeah, sorta. Wow. Two dimples.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: It's less than two dimples. It's about five millimeters. you know, it even if you want to go e tightless actually, you can move it a little bit further. If you go GTS two in their max forgiveness set when you backweight it and then you put for the forward weight on GTS four because it has as it's more for GTS, you I I use that example with the ping but because it's an LST model, but that's still a super forgiving head with 29 grams in the back. But
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: when you get into that GTS four, you really can front load it to manage. you know, dynamic loft and and sort of spin and speed. And and even that it's only seven millimeters between the max GTS two position where it's super friendly MOI to to really low. So it's only seven millimeters. People think that it's you you know front to back is like, you know, is is a massive amount. It's it's next to nothing.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Scott Rose: And you think the whole ten K O I thing, is that we're gonna s we're gonna get the spin up to keep the ball in play and pass it off as forgiveness? Or have I read that wrong?
Ian Fraser: No, I I I there's a there's a lot yeah, a lot of people think that that's you know, if if it spins more that it's not it's gonna fly less off on on sort of, you know, you know, yeah, o off on off the planet. But yeah, I I do think that's I I there's again there's there's more things to that. You know, the the the centre of gravity's real relationship with the shaft axis and how it helps the head rotate and you know, there there's more of that that's at play. Sure, you know, it's a a deflected blow with with something that's a little bit more back weighted is not going to twist the head as much. But at certain speeds, gear effect is your friend. Right? You know,
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: the whole Bryson situation with why he's playing that crank
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: driver with that much bulge and roll is he needs to offset a a a more significant blow. He's got more speed. So you know that that that curvature creates a a more meaningful offset for him because he's going to gear the thing, you know, normally for him off the toe. he's gonna gear
Scott Rose: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: the thing more left than normal people so he has to offset it more right. so I I just I I just thought it was, you know, a a lot of nonsense. I'm glad they're moving away, you know, from from really that being
Into The Teeth: Who are from that model?
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: a big talking point, you know.
Scott Rose: It's quite I think things and equipment are quite cyclical and we're maybe going a bit off off on a tangent here. But if you look at
Into The Teeth: I love it, it's so technical.
Scott Rose: I know this is like Yeah, I know.
Ian Fraser: We've got about six people left listening to everyone else about how you.
Scott Rose: This is like my dream come true, Ian.
Ian Fraser: Ha ha.
Scott Rose: So I was th what's your thoughts on Zero Torque with Putter?
Ian Fraser: Yeah, i again it it's probably a bit it's a bit ten K-ish to me to be honest.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: I think it's less I think it's less of the story. I think the bigger story is putting the face in front of the shaft rather than behind it. I think that's probably a bigger a bigger thing for a lot of people. I mean, you kind of like grow up in one environment and you've got kind of like some amount of torque. And torque is torque is friendly. to to a golfer.
Scott Rose: Yep, totally.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: Torque is managing, you know, our our kind of poor ability to manage the face. So for a lot of it's like, you know, having stabilizers in your bike, you know, stop you falling
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: off when when you're just getting on it. whereas giving someone zero torque is a bit like going, well you you decide what it does. you know and then all that shite in the revealer and stuff like that, you know, like
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: you know, I remember see Sam showed me that years ago. I mean probably seven, eight years ago and I went, that has zero relevance to what
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: a golfer does. You know, we we have all sorts of force get into that handle, you know, by how we set our body up, how we grip it, what grips, you know, all that sort of stuff. so yeah, I I I think there's it as it evolves though, I I think it's if you start off with a lab putter, maybe he's a junior golfer at ten years old and you putt that way for ten, twelve years, I I really think you could probably perform a really high level with it.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it's another tool in the toolbox, though. I I will say, you know, the amount of people I just go, how's your lab working for you? Or not you I don't even want to call it lab, but they were the first to really kind of own it. But
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: you know, it's how how many putts do you miss left? A lot. Right. And and that's that
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: that sort of like face getting there early. That's
Scott Rose: Need a bit of face rotation, yeah.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rose: And obviously you've touched a little bit on, you know, force plates, gears, you know, you think that might be the future, but obviously not every fitting studio is gonna be, to that specification. so what what do you
Ian Fraser: Mm. That's a good thing.
Scott Rose: w yeah, well that's what separates the best from the best, doesn't it? Or the best from the rest, I should say.
Ian Fraser: That's it. Yeah.
Scott Rose: But is there anything at the the moment that the wider fitting community that aren't doing that they think that they that sorry, you think they should be doing. Or there may be something they're not paying attention to.
Ian Fraser: I mean, I think the golf ball has more of a role to play than people give it credit for. you know, I think people get obsessed. Yeah. I think
Scott Rose: Love that answer.
Ian Fraser: people get obsessed with like what a shaft does or or how much l loft is on the club and you know, they just they don't realise so between w we'd we'd a matrix of golf balls and between the low spinning golf ball and the high spinning golf ball, if for a golfer who would swing a seven iron at eighty four miles an hour, we had about fourteen hundred RPM we could change a seven iron.
Scott Rose: Which is unbelievable.
Ian Fraser: If I ch which is a I'm off the charts, if I change your loft with your golf club one degree, I'm gonna get about two hundred RPMs a change. So
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: if I just change the golf ball and can lead you more towards other attributes, you might you might need more, you know, more speed. You might need, you know, whatever you might need. I've got loads of tools, but I can make the golf ball make it all combined. It's it is the glue that that combines all of the other attributes. so I would I would say that. I would say the role of the shaft still has to be, you know, more widely understood. I'm really pleased to see s better messaging around that now. You know, I think Mitsubishi are really changing the the kind of club fitting paradigm around launch conditions and things like that. They're they're telling a more of a story now as to how the shaft deflection can change strike point. You know, it can change you know, left-right bias rather than vertical bias. It's always the way I've seen it. I've never looked at it like a vertical adjustment. It's always a left to right lateral adjustment. So I think there's good info w with that. yeah, th th those are those are some of the lower hanging fruit pieces. And putting probably is as well. I think there's
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: more data for that.
Scott Rose: What about grip? So I think
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: I personally think grip's been misunderstood for years. The thickness of grips and you know what it
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: does to face rotation and all that sort of stuff. So how how would you go about fitting a grip for someone?
Ian Fraser: Well you'd start a fitting with it firstly. You don't end a fitting with a grip fit, you know, it yeah.
Scott Rose: Okay. Which tip which typically you you you do the fit in, this is your spec, and what grip do you want? It's the last question, isn't it?
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: And what grip would you like? That's it. It's i and it's not even it's not even it's not even a you know, it's not even a kind of like a technical thing. It's just what what do you want? Here's here's a few,
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: you'll feel the texture of that, and it's like Yeah,
Scott Rose: You like the colour of that one?
Into The Teeth: Green might and go, please.
Ian Fraser: yeah, that goes with the ferrous and it goes with your bag, and I was gonna say it goes with your team, Calvin. I thought we would have started there, but let's get into that. so
Scott Rose: Yeah. Absolutely not. I'm just gonna check the score actually while we're talking. no, they're two and a lot at halftime. Bast
Ian Fraser: Uh-oh. Uh-oh. yeah, so I I I you know I think yeah, I th I think that side of it is is is really, really important with the with the grip. You know, I just I just wish it would it would be understood what what impact it has. I mean and and that's that's not j that's it that's the the grip weight as well. You know, there's the taper rate, there's the weight of it, there's the texture
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: of it. there there's so many things that will impact the the whole s golf club as a system. that, you know, I don't think we've even scratched the surface of of understanding how we can influence a a a golf swing with the grip.
Scott Rose: Mm. And all that being said, if one of our listeners is sitting at home and there's one thing that they could go get checked in their golf equipment tomorrow, what what do you think it should be?
Ian Fraser: That's that's easy. I mean there's th there's kinda almost none of it that's easy. I mean, I would always say, you know, making sure you stay on top of your your lofty lies is really, really important. You know, they they tend to be a little a little all over the map. yeah, golf ball fitting just to kinda make sure you you're in something that can bind the whole performance together. I would say grip is up there, it's low hanging fruit as well. You know, if you don't
Into The Teeth: It is.
Ian Fraser: want to kind of spend too much money,
Scott Rose: But then it's a funny one, so you say it's low hanging fruit. It's low
Ian Fraser: Mm.
Scott Rose: hanging fruit to guys like yourself that understand it. But it's not low hanging fruit, and this is no disrespect
Ian Fraser: I know. It's it's still true. Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: to any PGA professional or like
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Scott Rose: if you go into a golf club and you ask about grip, again it might just be, well, what what do you like cord? Do you like tour velvet? What look what size is your hands? Alright, well bang them
Ian Fraser: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: on.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: That's it, isn't it? That that's the extent of it. I and I don't even think they to be honest, they'd go into sort of like, you know, Z cord because you you grip it a little firmer, you know, no one would look at a grip and look at where the wear patterns are. And yeah, you know, that's yeah Liam Muckle at the golf lab has done a really good job with some of that data that and research that he's sort of looked
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: at, which I think is good. you know, for hand size and and and grip size and and taper rate and stuff like that. So it's yeah, it it it's definitely got to be more of a more of a factor early in the fit. And I think that's where sensors edge technology, you know, those guys will definitely get a little bit more of a a prominent spot in the club fitting world in the next little while once people understand how how much force goes into the grip. You know, I like again back to something Blackburn said. What what did what did he say if there was one thing he would tell people to do is is put more force into the grip. You know? So
Scott Rose: Yeah. It's to correct. Yeah. This whole
Into The Teeth: no, it yeah. Yeah, he said he said the the primism
Scott Rose: yeah.
Into The Teeth: yeah.
Scott Rose: Yeah. So we've kinda jumped massively ahead, but I was really keen to talk about TXG because
Ian Fraser: Sure. Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: I would say that's probably when for for me anyway, I first learnt about you and started watching your content was TXG. And I just remember sitting thinking I'm I don't know if you've noticed this, Ian, but I'm a bit of a golf perv. And I remember sitting thinking, This is everything I've
Ian Fraser: I like the hat. I definitely like the hat.
Scott Rose: ever this is what I've been waiting for. Like 'Cause the club reviews that some of the YouTube guys do is is fine and it's pretty basic, but there was no one that was going into detail that you and the boys were going on and I just thought it was amazing. yeah. So
Into The Teeth: Scott's got a poster every year on his wall, just to let you know you ain't
Ian Fraser: As
Scott Rose: Actually I I actually
Ian Fraser: long as there's not darts in the calum, we're fine.
Into The Teeth: Ha ha ha.
Scott Rose: wear Ian Fraser jammies to my bed.
Ian Fraser: I mean the t the T XG thing was was, you know, yeah, it was just it was it was so unexpected. I'll be honest. I mean, when I moved away two thousand eleven, I moved away, came over here to Canada. You could never have told me anything that what I'd, you know, kind of ended up embarking on over the next seven, eight years would have been on on, you know, in the tea leaves. I I just I just thought there was more to the whole club fitting world. I could see at that time what there was a company called Hot Sticks at the time that became well, I guess that th that group became cool clubs. and and I could definitely see there was more out there in terms of the the club fitting world. So I just wanted to take a chance on doing something like that
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: and had a little bit of a look behind the scene at what we created was a company called Modern Golf, which in all honesty, I mean if if if I had launched if I had done what I'd done At TXG with modern golf, I think it would have blown up ten times more. I mean, it was probably
Into The Teeth: Right.
Ian Fraser: the best fitting studio. It probably was one of the best fitting studios in the world. Even to
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: this day, if I still had it, it would probably be the best fitting studio in the world. It was unbelievable. and it was back in 2011. so it was, you know, the YouTube side of things, we you know, we always talked about trying to create a kind of knowledge base from people who actually worked with golf equipment. So you like you said there about the equipment reviewers and you know I've got to know those boys really well over the years. But and and they and they say the same thing to me is you know one of the things Rick Shields will say to me when when we talk about it, he'll say that when I saw what you boys do, he's like I realized how l how bad a job we done on on the on the the club reviewing side. So they know as well, you know, that when
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: when you get people who live it day in, day out, You know, it's it's a bit like, you know, all those boys making the the the sort of YouTube content, then Bryson comes along and does it. You know, it's it's a bit
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it's it's gonna just have a different it's gonna resonate a different way. So because we deal with the equipment all day every day, we're obviously going to be more in tune with what works and what doesn't.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: and and I'm not daft enough to know that you know, an accent definitely helps. You know, this side of the pond, there's there's no doubt about that. so there's a lot of luck. a lot of luck at doing it at the right time and you know Matt who we launched the channel with like you know he was he obviously hit at a million miles and and that was different. He's left handed, that was different.
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: So there was there
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: was you know a lot of good things. I mean COVID COVID was horrific for so many things, but I tell you what it was great for our YouTube channel. That's for sure. People were stuck at
Scott Rose: Yeah, I can imagine, yeah.
Into The Teeth: Yeah. Yeah.
Ian Fraser: home watching it. Yeah.
Scott Rose: That was me. And obviously now you've got tour fitting golf out in Hong Kong.
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: so Chris Courtnage is a good friend of mine who obviously is your GM over there. So I worked with Chris at Callaway and he's he's loving life over there. How's that going?
Ian Fraser: It's brilliant. Honestly, it's brilliant. I I would say it's if if there's a studio that does if there's a two bay studio anywhere in the world that does better than that one, I would be shocked. I wouldn't
Into The Teeth: Yeah. Yeah.
Ian Fraser: believe I wouldn't believe you. you know, what I thought was a you know, a good performing sort of month in the bay, those boys do close to double what we would basically say was like our best months here in Canada. which yeah,
Into The Teeth: Right, okay, that's impressive.
Ian Fraser: there's just there's an appetite for it. There's there's a lack of
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: There's a lack of I suppose competition. you know, there's nothing much out there. It's it's a bit of a you know, imagine somebody gave you, you know, New York Manhattan skyline and said, Okay, go and go and knock yourself up a few skyscrapers and that's what it's like in Asia 'cause there's no competition
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: and it's it's you
Scott Rose: Golf's still a very elitist sport over there, isn't it?
Ian Fraser: I mean, in Hong Kong there's I think there's only five co golf clubs in ho in Hong
Into The Teeth: Right.
Ian Fraser: Kong. You need to travel over to really unless you're in one of those clubs, there's I think two of them are public, but you go over to Macau or you cross over into Shenzhen, Mission Hills, you know, you you kinda do a little bit of that. But it's nothing to travel an hour and a half for a game of golf over there. That that's kinda almost
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it the norm to do that. So yeah, it's brilliant. you know, Chris and Dawson and with BP and the club building side of things, Lucas. you know, it's it's a great team. the boys are doing absolutely brilliant. And, you know, yeah, we'll we'll we'll kind of look to implement a lot of the changes of of the the processes and stuff like that over there as well. Bit of a testing ground for some of these ideas.
Scott Rose: Okay, yeah.
Ian Fraser: so it's it's really, really good.
Into The Teeth: Brilliant.
Scott Rose: And Chris Cortnage has got to be the tallest man in Hong Kong, is he?
Ian Fraser: I mean he is the Hong Kong skyscraper, isn't he? He I think he he he loves it. Every room he walks into he's
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: all right. You know, he's looking at everyone as if they're
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: they're dwarfs compared
Scott Rose: Mm.
Ian Fraser: to him. But no, the big man's great. He's enjoying his holidays right now, he's back home. I see him on on a bike in France and then Belgium and
Scott Rose: He is. he's wild, his the raft racing and all that is he's off the charts. Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I loved it. I know. And I and i you know, Hong Kong's a great spot for him because it's it's got a little bit of everything. The nightlife is great. The you know, the beach scene is great.
Into The Teeth: It looks unbelievable.
Ian Fraser: Yeah, it is calm. It's it's it's a really cool, cool place. I mean, I
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: grew up a diehard anything anything to do with combat sports I was I was into as a kid. And I just always remember that scene in Bloodsport when Van Damme was was looking down on Hong Kong. I think it's called the Peak, is the is the is the area.
Into The Teeth: Mm.
Ian Fraser: And as as soon as I get into Hong Kong, I said to the voice, How do we get to the peak? I need to I
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: need to take a picture,
Into The Teeth: There we go, yeah.
Ian Fraser: send it to my brother of of that from blood sport. but it's a it's a great, yeah, great spot.
Scott Rose: And then you've also launched the Fraser Golf Institute,
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Into The Teeth: Yes.
Scott Rose: which looks to me like yeah, you're almost you've talked about your pillars of performance and stuff like that. Just can you tell us a wee bit more about that?
Ian Fraser: Yeah, I you know, we we wanted there's no point in hiding it. We're close enough to to relaunching the the new sort of what's coming down the pipeline next.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I I wanted to sort of dabble into stuff that I felt like, you know, I was still a little bit in in my lane, you know, w with that sort of thing. you know, w without straying too far, but you know, we we'll be back into the club fitting stuff much heavier in in the in the future. You know, there was a was a part of it was just, you know, having keeping a presence on YouTube and, you know, making sure that we could help golfers with with the information that we felt was maybe you know missing. And there was probably a lot of that type of stuff that we wanted to do more of before you know, I left club champion that that always done really well for us. any stein we done stuff with Scott Cooks or Gareth Rufluski or Tyler McGee, you know, all of those guys done incredible. content for is Ralph Bauer. We've done some great stuff with with him. So I I love it, but I miss I miss doing the equipment stuff like you wouldn't believe.
Scott Rose: The tills.
Ian Fraser: Honestly.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: I didn't realise how much I'd miss it if I'm being honest. it's been a little more painful than I thought.
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rose: Good. Listen, you've been so generous with your time. We've just got one round of quick fire questions for you, Ian, and then we'll let you get we
Ian Fraser: Let's do it.
Scott Rose: here. Right, Callum, you lead the way.
Into The Teeth: So I've got I've got I've got some quick fire questions for
Ian Fraser: Yeah.
Into The Teeth: you in here, so you're ready. This is my big call on in this podcast here. Get the serious stuff out of the way first. Right, favourite drink This
Ian Fraser: it's
Into The Teeth: can be an alcoholic beverage or just a beverage in general, but you are Scottish so we're expecting an alcoholic beverage to be presented to you.
Ian Fraser: I tell you what, I mean i i well, I'd have to go back in time 'cause I've not had a baby in four years, believe it or not.
Scott Rose: wow.
Into The Teeth: right, okay.
Ian Fraser: Four years. I mean it was always a vodkin coke. it was just vodkin
Into The Teeth: I've all kind.
Ian Fraser: coke, it was it was aftershock, it was it was any kind of shot, any of that sort of stuff. But now it's just a simple cup of tea, boys, I'm I'm sorry to say.
Into The Teeth: Cup of tea, that's alright.
Scott Rose: Not there's nothing wrong with that, yeah.
Into The Teeth: Sugar or no sugar you're sweet enough mate, I thought that.
Ian Fraser: No sugar.
Into The Teeth: Right, er next up. What's the most Scottish thing about you that Canada and I suppose Hong Kong if you spent a lot of time there has failed to remove?
Ian Fraser: The Rangers. The Rangers.
Into The Teeth: Rangers.
Ian Fraser: The Copeland Road every other Saturday, Callum, that would be it.
Into The Teeth: I like it, I like it. Right, next one. What's one Canadian habit your mates have picked up your Scottish mates have picked up on that they absolutely slaughter you for?
Ian Fraser: The vo the accent. The accent.
Into The Teeth: Is it the accent?
Scott Rose: Think it's that bad.
Ian Fraser: The accent. I get pelters. They they call me Andy Murray, they they call me
Into The Teeth: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: but at the end of the day, honestly, I mean the the reality and you boys will know about this. I if you came over, if if we talked the way the three of us went for a pint and we
Into The Teeth: huh.
Ian Fraser: started talking in the pub the way and and you try to talk like that on YouTube, y you couldn't do it. You'd you'd last
Scott Rose: Yeah, no chats.
Into The Teeth: No.
Ian Fraser: five minutes. So it's it's necessary evil.
Into The Teeth: I'm slowly learning that, I mean I'm still getting slaughtered for the way I speak on YouTube, so
Ian Fraser: Ha ha ha.
Into The Teeth: I'm I'm starting to
Scott Rose: It's a it's amazing it's amazing the AI software I've got. When I post the podcast, Calm's got an English accent.
Into The Teeth: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: Ha ha.
Into The Teeth: Also actually understands what I'm saying half the time. So
Scott Rose: Yeah.
Into The Teeth: right, okay. Favourite driver you've ever personally owned or fitted for?
Ian Fraser: I I think just the the Taylor Maid sim was was kind of the one for f for me. I just I did I hit that one the best. even when I first saw the design, I remember sitting in that room and in Carlsby and they talked about shape and motion and you know how the can aerodynamics worked with with that back's tail part and it just made so much sense to me. and and then the kind of like the the performance we saw with people that that year. You know, people picked up a lot of club head speed with that slightly shallower head profile. You know, it's one
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: thing going with these new carbon faces just to give you more real estate in the face, but you give up a lot of aerodynamics, when it comes to that. so yeah, the sim was just a different animal.
Scott Rose: What's j sorry, sorry, I just
Into The Teeth: So that might lead in sorry.
Scott Rose: have a what's your thoughts on original two, Ian? How good was that driver?
Ian Fraser: amazing, amazing. I mean I I I don't think I ever had a driver that that can have I just had such a transformation with you know with that thing. I I remember I got my hands on on that with Justin Rose had just it came out into office twenty sixteen, Justin Rose had just won the Olympics in Rio. And and there was a batch of those Tense 1K white shafts before they made the pro. there was one K. it wasn't even it was just called Tensei White, it wasn't even one K.
Into The Teeth: That wasn't okay at the time, yeah, that's right.
Ian Fraser: Yeah. And I get given I get given one of the early batches or Justin Rose had had one and I got given one actually the blue band on it, but you could tell the difference 'cause it said bore on tip. And I remember putting that in it and I just had never hit a driver like this in my my whole life. I used to hear
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: people say things like, you know, I went to the Great Big Bertha and I picked up, you know, all sorts of distance. I'd be fuck, I wish I could get that. That that was the first time I ever experienced it.
Into The Teeth: He experienced that. I actually done a lesson with someone today that had an M2 and I said that's like gold dust around here, you better not sell
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: that Right, next one. One golf club from your entire through your entire life you wish you never got rid of. Now it may be that driver you just spoke about, but
Ian Fraser: in two thousand and eight a really good friend of me mine gave me a Scotty double nine.
Scott Rose: Mm.
Into The Teeth: Ooh.
Ian Fraser: it was it was exactly the same one that Speith uses. and actually it was made for Luke Donald. And at the time I think I was I mean what was it, two thousand and eight, so I was twenty five and he he made the mistake of telling me if you ever need a few quid, this thing's this thing's worth about probably five or six grand. And
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: the minute I needed a few quid it was off.
Scott Rose: Ha ha ha.
Ian Fraser: so I wish I hadn't ever sold it, but that one for sure.
Into The Teeth: Best golf course you've ever played.
Ian Fraser: On Scotty's hat. Still I I mean Yeah. Did you know I was gonna say that? Did you? It's just I don't know. I've
Into The Teeth: He said no before the podcast started that's what he said.
Scott Rose: Tip.
Ian Fraser: maybe being a Helmsborough boy, it's maybe just nostalgic. The Scottish Open, you know, just you're playing there. I always aspired to kind of, you know, get a game there. It was always so exclusive. don't go wrong, I've you know, Oakmont's great, Pinehurst is great, you know, there's so many great courses, you know. played Shinnicok, played a load of nice courses, but there's nowhere. There's nowhere for me like getting a game at Loch Loman when I'm home.
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: It's the overall experience as well, isn't it?
Into The Teeth: Phenomenal. It's one of my favourite places.
Ian Fraser: Okay. Yeah.
Scott Rose: Get a get a pint in the locker room and just the atmosphere it's yeah, unbelievable.
Into The Teeth: That's incredible. Sitting in your golf shoes drinking a pint, amazing.
Ian Fraser: the best. I know. Willie, what's Willie's last name, Christ, in the locker room. My he was one of my dad's really good friends growing up. he so he's run the locker room at Loch Lomond basically since it started. And he's you know, I he will never hear this podcast, so it's fine, but he's he's the best paid well, Will Willy
Scott Rose: Nobody listens to our podcast, you're all right.
Ian Fraser: Willie's too busy in the pub but he will definitely not be listening to a podcast. But he's like he's the he's the best he's been the best paid guy in the place. for you know, since
Scott Rose: Steps.
Ian Fraser: the start, because it's it's the exp tips and experience and you know
Into The Teeth: hi.
Ian Fraser: obviously all the footballers are in there and they love him and he's got the crack.
Into The Teeth: Love I.
Ian Fraser: I if if you're if you're Joe Schmo off the street or you're you know or if you're a billionaire or or you're a top footballer, he's got he's got the right personality for you at any given time. So it's something else.
Scott Rose: Well, it he's a world class room reader, Ian.
Into The Teeth: There we go. I SM.
Ian Fraser: Correct? Yeah yeah yeah absolutely. A chameleon, no doubt about it.
Scott Rose: Yeah. Ian Fraser sorry, have you got one more? sorry, Carl.
Into The Teeth: hold hold Todd Scotty, boy Jesus. This
Ian Fraser: Ha ha.
Into The Teeth: is my last one I've just added. again just for our audience and listeners and viewers, you're a very successful man, Ian. you've done fantastic for yourself so far in your career. What what kind of tip would you give to someone that's maybe looking to start their own business or go down a path or a certain sp specify on s a sp a specific part of the industry? What
Ian Fraser: Mm-hmm.
Into The Teeth: part What piece of advice would you give to, you know, someone just now that are listening?
Ian Fraser: Probably two things, Calum, that really probably stick out to me. you know, and and there's so many cliches obviously when you know when you think of stuff like this, but I really believe comfort is the enemy of progress, right? So don't get comfortable. Try and get yourself as uncomfortable as as possible as often as possible. And also back yourself. You know, moving
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: to moving to Canada in 2011, you know, I d I had no idea. It was a two year work visa that guaranteed me absolutely nothing. But I knew that if I went and done it, the worst case scenario is I would come home and I would go back to doing what I was doing and I would have
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: lived in Canada for a couple of years and it would have been good. And if I don't last two years, I didn't I didn't even think I would last two years if I'm being honest. And then
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: renewed that visa and done another two years. I thought we'd come home after that 'cause you there's no third visa. Y you either become a permanent resident or, you know, they they turf you out. So I you know, I just I think You know, Tracy and I backed ourselves that, you know, we could make a success of it. Even yeah, I just I look at some of the things that I'd done over the years ago, how did I sort of almost trust that that would work out? But I never doubted
Into The Teeth: Mm-hmm.
Ian Fraser: it. I never doubted it for a single second. You know, taking half a million dollars from a g a guy that I barely knew. T X G was started between me and a Chinese guy called Joe Yang, who came into the place I was running at the time and he tried to rip off the concept. That's how our relationship started.
Into The Teeth: right, okay.
Ian Fraser: It was a Chinese guy that literally tried to rip off our concept. And and w he he told me about that in in in kind of like a you know, a conversation went for a cup of tea one day and he told me he's like I basically the only reason I came in to see that day was because I wanted to to take pictures and videos, take this concept
Into The Teeth: Well is it still your model? Yeah.
Ian Fraser: yeah, back to China and replicate it. But I re I realized the skill set was really what was more important than the the you know, the technology or the bricks and mortar. So you know, that you know, the amount of time so, you know, getting to talk to him, convincing him that T X G was the right idea. Don't know how I convinced
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: him to spend half a million dollars of his money on it. I
Into The Teeth: That's v very impressive.
Ian Fraser: I I don't know how I'd done it, but I think, you know, I just again, I just always always backed myself. So if there's anyone who you know has has a a dream of something they want to do, just go and do it. I mean
Into The Teeth: Just poszuje.
Ian Fraser: just go and do it. Don't don't sit and think about it and You know, worry about what might happen if you do it. You know, it it'll be worse if you don't.
Into The Teeth: Yeah, definitely. I'll piece it iron, that's fantastic advice.
Scott Rose: Love that. Love that. Are we done? Is that you done, Calm? I don't want to jump in again.
Into The Teeth: Scott, y you can you can continue on now, my friend.
Scott Rose: Perfect.
Ian Fraser: Ha ha ha.
Scott Rose: Listen, Ian, we've taken up far too much of your time, but thank thank you
Ian Fraser: Not at all. Boys, any time honestly.
Scott Rose: so much.
Into The Teeth: Thank you very much, Ian.
Scott Rose: even if the listeners didn't love that added, so it's worth it. and I can I
Into The Teeth: Definitely.
Scott Rose: can now stop pestering you on Instagram, so everyone's a winner.
Ian Fraser: well yeah, I'm I'm terrible. And I think the last time when I said I would come on, I what I forgot to tell you is I was going in for sinus surgery. So I ended up going and and getting like a deviated septum repaired and and I kinda had I I thought it was going to be like a like a one week recovery or like a you know, qu it was like s
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Ian Fraser: it was like six to eight weeks of don't touch a golf club, don't do this, don't do that. So
Into The Teeth: god.
Ian Fraser: no, that was my fault.
Scott Rose: No, not at all. Not at all. But thank you so much, Ian. And
Into The Teeth: No, we appreciate that.
Scott Rose: we're we're both very much looking forward to seeing what's next for for
Into The Teeth: Definitely.
Scott Rose: your your venture in back in the club fan.
Ian Fraser: Thanks boys. Now I appreciate you having me on and you know, I love I love that, you know, people like yourselves, especially from back home, getting into, you know, the podcasting world or or any kind of content world. I I just I don't know, there's something for me about Scotch people in golf and you know, I don't think that we do it enough. I don't think we can aback ourselves enough that that our voices
Into The Teeth: Yeah.
Scott Rose: The Sc Scottish mentality, isn't it?
Ian Fraser: should be heard and Yeah, it is it is and we've got something to offer, you know
Into The Teeth: Agreed.
Ian Fraser: W it's easy for us to look down south and you know, it seems natural for people down there to do it, but we we shy away from it. So good on the two of you for getting out and doing it and yeah, any time I can ever help with anything, I'd love to.
Into The Teeth: I appreciate that, Ian. That's fantastic.
Scott Rose: Appreciate that, Ian. Thank you. Right. Let's get
Ian Fraser: All right, boys.
Scott Rose: out of here, boys. Thank you so much. Cheers.
Into The Teeth: See you later on, gents. Thank you.
Ian Fraser: See your slides.