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Hello, and welcome to this episode of the University of Strathclyde Inspiring Conversation Series.
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I'm John Anderson, Director of Growth Programmes at Strathclyde Business School, and delighted to be joined by Strathclyde Inspired Entrepreneur Neil MacDonald, who has recently returned to Scotland and is offering his support to other entrepreneurs.
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Neil has extensive international business experience, including over 12 years in senior technical and supply chain positions for the Coca-Cola company.
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Welcome, Neil, and thanks for joining us today.
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Thank you for inviting me, John.
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Somehow feel maybe I'm here under false percentes as I'm really an entrepreneur.
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I wouldn't maybe go with that definition, but I'm delighted to be here and share what I can and obviously learn from yourselves as well.
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So thank you very much for the invitation.
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So to start, uh Neil, can you tell us a bit about yourself, your career, your background, and what did you set out to achieve and and and how's that turned out?
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Yeah, well, so state school education in Scotland, which uh I have to say has served me well.
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Um, north, one of the suburbs in the north side of Glasgow, Glasgow University mechanical engineering degree.
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And that led me into working very close to here at Strathclyde in uh tenants brewery, where quite frankly, you learn about man management in a fairly brutal way.
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Um, that was great because it rubs a lot of um edges off you.
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You really you learn the basics there about managing people, managing process, and doing that with uh an organization that had a very, very good management training and program.
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That led to me getting itchy feet after a few years, where I came to Strathclyde to do my MBA in 1919, 1991, uh which was again another fantastic experience, and popping out of that, I got an international role, which is when I first left the United Kingdom in the end of 1991, uh which basically with Pepsi Cole International, and I finished off heading to Nigeria, uh, which was the first overseas assignment.
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So quite good fun.
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Do you want me to go on?
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Because it's a long, it's a long 30 years since then, and many adventures and uh many many different experiences from there.
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So, given these multiple roles, this this to me is always really interesting.
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Some people think that they start a role or a career, and that's one company for life, one uh one career.
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Um experience suggests now that actually lots of different experiences uh is more helpful as you develop as a leader.
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Can you maybe share some of the things that you've learned from individual experiences, give some examples of really learned that one and I will I didn't know that I needed to know that type of thing.
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So I started off and had no master plan, um, but you have a set of values and you have a certain skill set that you bring through training or engineering and the business combination.
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And you know, you just mentioned in the startup that I worked for Coca-Cola, and my first overseas job was with Pepsi Cola.
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And the reason I was I believe I was acceptable to both was because you didn't switch uh to try and steal secrets from one another, you had genuine things that you could add to those organizations, and I was headhunted across from Pepsi to Coke through people who'd heard about what I did, um, and we did that in a way which was acceptable to both organizations, and that can go full circle.
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So, even as early, you know, you know, building and keeping trust with the people you deal with is incredibly important.
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And the guy who took me on in Pepsi in Nigeria, where I'd been working for the global company, the local bottler, who is a Lebanese Druze businessman, asked me to be seconded to run his supply chain very hands-on in the early mid-90s.
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Um, and I met him again in December last year, and he was happy to invite me out to Lagos and revisit his business because even with all that change in time, he and I had a good relationship based on trust and based on integrity, which in a place like Nigeria can be quite challenging.
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Um, and those are the things where you learn that it's as much about you and your personal brand and what you bring in terms of values, rather than just saying, you know, here's a career and I'm out for myself, and it's only about me and I'm I'm only going to do one thing.
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And there's been a number of times where people you meet them later and they kind of reflect back on things which you maybe didn't think about yourself, but you realise that you maybe had an influence or an impact on them.
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Um, and you know, that's really, really rewarding.
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Um others, you know, you meet people where it's very clear that being a leader for them is just about the prestige, it's all about themselves, and I think people see through that pretty quick, especially Scots.
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Although not restricting, you know, most people see through that to be fair.
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So these experiences, this uh I often use the term curiosity, so instead of just plowing that thing, yeah.
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You know, you I think people are either curious or not.
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Strikes me, Neil, that you are a curious type, and that you know, do you you find experiences that then shape your leadership style, uh, the coaching approach you might take and things like that.
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What things in terms I mean, would you would you be would you agree you're kind of a curious individual for starting?
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Um I think so.
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I mean, I ask a lot of questions, and you have to be conscious that some people take that as you don't trust them because you're actually trying, you know, you're trying to shape up and understand things in a framework that you understand yourself.
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Um, but yeah, you're always wondering what next, why next, how would that work, uh, how do we push the boundaries?
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And that also allows you, it creates opportunities, and then you have to have the follow-through and take the opportunities.
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And that's one of the reasons that as a family, we've lived in nine countries in the world and traveled around a great deal.
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And you know, not being judgmental when you go to new locations is fundamental to that curiosity.
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If you've already prejudged a situation, a culture, a business setup, you know, a group of people that you're meeting, you're not going to really learn from them.
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And to be curious, you have to put all of that out and just stop and listen.
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And although this conversation might not reflect it, you've got two ears and one mouth, and that's a good ratio to start with.
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Listen twice as much as you speak.
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Um but that curiosity also extends to a number of different things.
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What do you do outside work?
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Are you looking beyond things which have made you successful in the past?
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What's changing in the world around you?
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Uh, what are the trends as opposed to the fads?
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And just you know, what do you enjoy?
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Then do it with a bit of passion.
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So, just on that, the I really love the way you're explaining this in terms of it's not just, I mean, we see people frankly, you see people in a train and you look at them and they're not happy in their life and they're stuck.
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Um, you and I have and many of us within the Inspire community have been fortunate enough to get ourselves in interesting positions, probably about being curious, frankly, and taking some risks along the way.
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But how do you then help other people do that, other than to taking part in these podcasts and sharing your stories and just being very humble and authentic about that?
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Um you I mean, you offer yourself through mentoring, through other support.
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There's some great organizations in Scotland that can connect people.
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The globally, there's the Global Scott Organisation, um, and then obviously there's organizations like Strathclyde Inspire, and we have the Hunter Foundation with everything from Scottish Edge, Scale Up Scotland, and the support that they give.
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And those are areas where people, if they're they have to be open to wanting it, because you're not going to force them into it.
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Um, and they have to be curious themselves about um yeah, yes, determined, yes, have a certain level of um optimism and commitment to their own ideas as entrepreneurs, but also be open-minded to make sure they've got the guardrails around them from people who've got experience.
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Um, and that can be a difficult balance because sometimes experience is a whoa, we wouldn't do that.
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Um, but it's more a question of as having had a long career, you've got to be very cautious of how you um how you share some of those experiences.
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Because, as I said earlier, in terms of leadership, it's not about you.
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Also, in terms of mentoring and supporting and guiding people, it's not about you, it's about helping people identify risks, identify opportunities, and do it in a way that's less likely to see them having a disruptive problem or or or catastrophe.
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Um, and that that's that's just pretty cool, you know.
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It's great to see success.
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Well, I can tell we could all tell just how enthusiastic you are about that.
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Can't see anything that is say, oh, I've come to the end of my career, what am I going to do?
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Actually, it's a completely new.
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I mean, I've I'm in a career number four at the moment, for example.
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Um I wish I was 30 years younger and could start again.
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I mean, it's just there is so much opportunity today, you know, from travel, from data, from access to information, from more open markets, etc.
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And you know, I don't mean that necessarily in terms of the political stuff, but just people are more open to trial and there's just so many opportunities there.
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Yeah, it's quite quite phenomenal.
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So we won't find you on the golf course every day of the week.
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No, you won't.
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You might find me on a boat, but no, not in a golf course.
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Not in a golf course.
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It's this this collective experience that you know, we're both global Scots.
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Um the concept there is giving back, yes, from you know, regardless of where you've been, you know, we're really committed to helping businesses in Scotland, you know, at a micro level with Strathclyde Inspire, it's about the Strathclyde community.
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Would you describe yourself as an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial?
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Or how would you because you know it's taken us over 20 years to get to this wonderful place of Strathclyde Inspire, you know, an institution-wide entrepreneurship strategy, accruing staff, alumni, students.
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It's a fantastic thing, but we have used the word entrepreneur a long time.
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I'm going to go back to something you mentioned first, which is giving back.
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And when you're on a nomadic global career with a big company or a number of big companies, um, and you're doing a lot of travel when you're based in a certain location, it's very difficult to give back to both your home country or to some of the communities that you're in.
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So having that now having stopped, that does give me the opportunity to use time to give back and both for sports and things I have a passion for and also to the business community.
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It's not completely charitable.
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It'd be great to get some, you know, some good paying work from it, it'd be great to get some advisory positions, etc.
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But fundamentally, you give your time because you want to support the success of others.
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And what's very interesting as an uh a Scotsman coming back to Scotland, having come from this education system, it's interesting to see how the universities and public sector are really trying to get some synergy between business, between people, and between innovations.
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Um, Scotland has got a great history of that, and we're now sort of starting to see through Scottish Enterprise, through a whole range, and there's so many of them that it's actually quite confusing.
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Somebody should create a list of them to understand what they do.
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Are they competing for the same people for the same pots of money?
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But the fundamental behind that is there's a lot of intention and goodwill and resource available to say how do we take great ideas, empower people to run with it, give them the support, and at the right time introduce investment and ability to scale up and make those into really successful organizations.
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And that, you know, we're not alone in doing that here, but it's really good to see how not just Strathclyde but other universities in Scotland are all trying to do the same path.
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So given your uh career new and clearly not a corporate, pure corporate man, you would you describe yourself as an entrepreneur or entrepreneurial, or what type of uh you know, is that something you would recognise as a term?
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Maybe entrepreneurial in terms of thinking, uh, because even within the corporation, you're trying to look for new solutions that are maybe not part of the standard playbook.
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And there were a few examples that we had uh both in Central Europe with the Co-Kalenic team and out in China and areas where you're really trying to see, you can see a different business opportunity and you can understand that within an existing corporate ecosystem, it can be difficult for people to push against that and do something genuinely disruptive or supportive of change.
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Um, and I would hope that those who I work with would recognise within me some of those projects and ideas that I was always trying to champion and encourage.
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Um, so I think of myself more as entrepreneurial of mindset, but I've never taken the personal risk to you know invest and put everything on the line and become a real entrepreneur.
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And I'd think it would be wrong of me to pretend that, you know, it would be very quick, you'd find that I've not done that.
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And that's the great thing about those real entrepreneurs who are prepared to take that risk and to, and you know, some of them incredibly successful.
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And I don't think we're good enough at celebrating that in the country.
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The green jealousy comes out sometimes, and we don't like to admit that you know the boy next door was much more successful than me.
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Um, our American cousins are better at doing that.
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Um, but we need you know, we've we've also um we do have some great entrepreneurial businesses in all the different sectors, um, and we should be learning from that and encouraging people to do that, to follow that same path.
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I really love that your entrepreneurial mindset, because that's what it is.
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Yeah, you know, again, we go back, we've been teaching entrepreneurship at Strathclyde for 20 plus years.
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Uh and I remember those early days where can you use that word?
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A very, you know, it's uh it was it was not a common thing.
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In fact, one of the very early things which some uh listeners will remember would be there was a birthday strategy for Scotland as a sort of strategic thing that Scottish Enterprise produced, and the measure was uh they called the e-index, which was in in the in the broad media in mainstream media, how often the word entrepreneur was used, and the successory was a chart, it was amazing, not over five years of the number of times, because there was a long education process of the whole, you know, where are the role models?
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Yeah, you know, we'd had this incredible uh wealth-creating nation which we seem to have lost direction on, and a lot of people have put the last 30 years of hard work to do that.
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I think it's changed markedly.
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I'm I'm I'm laughing at that because I see that you know you have a trigger point and a metric, and that's great.
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And you know, suddenly you're nudging journalists to use that word, and that metric goes up and somebody gets a bonus.
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Um, but we've got some great entrepreneurs in Scotland who maybe wouldn't recognise themselves as entrepreneurs, some of the big family businesses that have established in construction, in food and drink, and you know, in manufacturing, and they would just say, No, I'm just me, it's what I did.
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Um, but if you were to back-analyse it using today's terminology, absolutely they were entrepreneurs.
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Um, and what we're again, it gets back to this thing about success and you know and failure.
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And we're kind of quick, our humour is very black humor, and we kind of always have a go at the guy that oh well he he messed it up.
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Um, but you know, let's celebrate that, the ones who tried, uh the ones who put their their efforts on the line.
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Um typically failure is not just because of incompetence or you know, um, you know, negative things that can be circumstantial.
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Um, the market changing, the um you the people not identifying that.
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There's all sorts of reasons, but it's those who really try that we should be celebrating and and who bring people with them and train and support, and and um you know that is good to see that there's an increasing whatever terminology we use around it, it's really good to see that there's more focus on helping and supporting those who want to give it a go.
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I think part of that also is this change of attitude, possibly culture, towards fear of failure.
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Yes.
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So again, Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, which North Clyde is part of uh as a representative Scotland, um always looks at this as a barrier.
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You know, what's the barrier?
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We're a small country, and also people feel that if you have a financial failure and you fail as a director, um that's a real stain on your character.
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Uh, when you're in a much, much larger ecosystem, be that in the west coast of America or Asia, can you hide is it as important as opposed to your reputation and you know what appears in the you know the herald or the Scotsman?
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Um so there is a bit of that in terms of a small community and your visibility within that community for trying and not being successful.
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And we still have some of that, you know, almost puritanical, oh he you know, he was financially a failure.
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Um, but we've got to kind of move past that um and find that a good balance that encourages people to take it on and give it a try.
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Um, not to and everybody knows when somebody's milking a system and taking lots of grants, they don't think they're going to pay back and all the rest of it.
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There's all there may well be bad behaviours.
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Nobody wants to see that, but we really should be encouraging those.
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And and I've met so many really great entrepreneurs in the last three years who absolutely are doing that, and they that's that's really energizing and fantastic to see.
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Yeah, I think one of the interesting things is that failure is um it's a learning experience.
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This comes back to entrepreneurial mindset.
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So something's not worked, okay.
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Don't repeat the same thing, yeah.
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And that I think culturally that's where Scotland has changed in the last 20 years dramatically, because you've got environments where there are comfortable places.
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So Strathclyde Inspire, each of the elements of it, the work we do in the business school with peer learning and peer support and growth programs, create an environment where you learn from everyone else's mistakes.
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Uh if they're open, if they're willing to share those in a in this and feel comfortable about doing it.
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And that's the big change that I've seen.
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Yeah, yeah, is that there's more of a willingness to do that.
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It needs to be encouraged constantly because it just takes one takes one big whacker to to put everybody else in.
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One front front page of a of a of one of the tabloids and that we're back again.
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But I think generally, and I think all of the work that we are doing collectively to spare some inspire community helps.
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And the great you know, the the one thing though is you know that the universities typically have their own inspire type organization, and it would be good to see more collaboration between them so that there is, you know, if if if there's a really good skill set or slightly more advanced research in one institution, there is a bit more sharing of that for the collective benefit.
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But you know, that's human nature.
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You know, everyone's going to push their own team, their own uh their own club with their own organization.
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They again go back to the point of elbow behavior, it's definitely better than it used to be.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And you know, let's celebrate that and the fact that it really is moving forward and it's the good stuff.
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You know, we mentioned failure, but no, it's all about success, it's all about those new organizations and guys who have really starting to hit their light fantastic.
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So you know you've you've got a particular passion and also expertise in in we'll call it sustainability, but you know, particularly UN uh United Nations sustainable development goals.
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Um, can you talk about how that's that passion has has you you've realized that passion and practically what we can do to support businesses and people on their data?
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It's something that creeps up on you.
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So you realise that you do things right from a technical perspective, you know, you get the right, you make the formula correctly, you make the product correctly, you get the quality right, and then you realize that you've actually got a much wider system supporting you.
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So are your suppliers doing it well or are they abusing people?
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And that's when you realize that, you know, for all the derogatory comments made about big business and big food, and some of my previous employers, you know, Coca-Cola, a global company that gets quite a lot of bad press for some things, they were actually realized that reputational risk is an absolute killer for a company.
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And within that big marketing um engine, you know, 25 years ago we were eliminating um chromium from our supply chain and PVC, not because of anybody telling us to, but because we knew that would do bad stuff if it went into the effluent.
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And you need chromium to make red ink, so it's quite a difficult problem when your main brand is red.
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Then you realize that um, you know, through good publicity from NGOs pointing out about the bad malpractices and manufacturing of you know marketing materials, we need to make sure we understand how our suppliers are behaving.
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And supplier guiding principles became a really big, big focus in terms of making sure that suppliers were operating ethically and correctly and in a good way.
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And when an organization signs up to some of those goals, you think, ah goodness, what does this mean?
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But what you realize is actually it's the best insurance policy you could have.
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You've got to be a step ahead of it, you've actually got to do things correctly.
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And although that might mean you know, an argument from one of my country managers saying that you know, I'm at a competitive disadvantage because I'm not using PVC for my labels and everybody else is, well, sorry, live with it and get on with it because we will have a long term competitive advantage.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:58.240
And you're now seeing that reflecting through in terms of not just people practices, but in terms of uh carbon and you try so the old supply chain ethos of cost, quality, and quantity being the three things that you manage, and managing any two of them is quite easy, but managing all three is a trade off.
00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.759
You've now got carbon to add.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:24.319
That and that will be your scope one, scope two, scope three carbon, and not just knowing what it is, but being able to do something about it, and that's where you start to realize that you can have a significant role, both in terms of um what you do within a large company and what you do as an entrepreneur and what you do with startup businesses by having an eye to the future for that and realizing like it or not, we shouldn't be overheating the planet.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.559
Like it or not, we should be understanding waste.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.160
And those are Scottish principles.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.960
You know, when we wear through our shoes, we get a new soul put on it.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.680
Some of our other colleagues would chuck them away and get a new pair.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:39.039
So we are thrifty by nature, so we're actually got a good mindset in terms of waste not, want not, right?
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.480
And those are actually that that's fundamental to good sustainable practices.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:23:03.759
And the other element of it that you realize it's actually about the hard stuff, it's about organic chemistry, it's about thermodynamics, it's about um uh understanding polymers, you know, plastic-free world sounds great, but you know, understanding polymers and polymer technology and how to change it, those are the things which will have a big impact.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:18.799
Um, and that to me creates massive opportunities, real opportunities for entrepreneurs and for other businesses to come and do something about it, rather than just sitting back and saying, this sustainability thing is putting more hurdles for me and more handicaps for my business.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:24.799
And that's what you realize as time goes on, and more and more of your focus, you know, the day-to-day works, it was looking ahead.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.839
Do we have good sources of agricultural products?
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.839
Are they free from contaminants?
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:38.400
And as you get more and better analysis of that to um greater fidelity, you realize there's a lot of stuff out there that you have to either clean up or not source from.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.839
So that's where it kind of grew up and came from.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:57.039
And that's where, particularly as you look ahead, I think there's a huge opportunity for business, both at a very small scale to help fix and at a global scale to help introduce and use those ideas to make sure we're on the right trajectory.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:08.960
I I find that I find that fascinating because what the programs that we're running for growth companies, we're presenting the changes that are happening that have to happen as opportunities.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.319
Use that absolutely, it's opportunity.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:22.960
If you think opportunity, where you are in that supply chain, how you can help your clients and their clients and their clients so that it is not just seen as this, you know.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.599
I I hate the term greenwashing because the media and and activists keep using it, not under sometimes they're right.
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:40.559
Yeah, and the problem is that I think I mean you just give us a perfect example of we started doing the right things 20 years ago because and and that's maybe a story it's not told well enough.
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:47.680
But it's a story you can't tell for yourself because it's all it's you know and and that's that that there's a bit of a difficulty there.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:25:06.240
Um and there are things where you can be critical of all sorts of global brands, um, you know, whether it's in pharmaceuticals or whether it's uh clothing or whether it's automotive or whatever, but fundamentally, if the um consumers lose trust in them, they will start to see big, big hurt to their bottom line.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:16.720
And when you have those responsibly run global companies, you will find that they are trying to get ahead of it and trying to do the right things, and they have actually got um as much of a need as anybody else.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:26.319
They are staffed by individuals who have grandparents, who have children, who have families, who have brothers and sisters, you know, they're they're actually staffed by people who also care.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:31.440
Um, so it's always that piece of finding that right dialogue with them to make it constructive.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.920
You know, Greenpeace and Shell, you know, guess what?
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:35.200
We all want clean oceans.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.759
I don't think anybody that I know that worked for Shell actually wants to pollute the oceans.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:47.039
But by the same token, you know, maybe sometimes corners get cut and things don't get done correctly, but guess what?
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.680
We still need the energy to run you know modern society, right?
00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:00.880
And we've got to have a joined up discussion on these things with taking a bit of the emotion out of it and avoiding people using it just to bang the drum about their single issue.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:01.200
Yeah.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:02.319
And the point score.
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:10.160
Remember, uh you'll probably know the story when when John Mackie was um getting whole foods in the US off the ground, you know.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:23.759
Um he talks about being in a big trade fair uh and they were sourcing individually, trying to s trying to source um organic foods for the US market and a huge market at that point.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:32.240
And there were activists, protesters in the corner, and uh he made a point of going over and engaging with them.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:32.799
Yes.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.759
And he talks, who everyone talks now today is about stakeholders, it's not about just the shareholders.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:43.279
Stakeholders include people whose voice you might not agree with, but they might have something.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:48.240
And he he is very explicit in his book and going, I hadn't thought about that.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.920
Let me go away and look at it.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:58.160
And again, if you look at good corporate governance, and uh I one of the things I did when I returned was the Financial Times non-exec directors course because it's thorough and deep.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:03.920
And your role as a director of a company is to stakeholders, not only to shareholders.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:15.839
So that means that you do have this wider responsibility to the world around you and not just to those who've invested directly into your business or your or your direct employees, and that's an interesting distinction.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:38.000
Um, and you know, you you look at some of these arguments and the different groups, and you know, if you take, for example, vegan agriculture, in the intention to make it chemical-free and all very nice, they actually can't do the zero-till agriculture where you don't plow and you minimize disruption of soil, but you maybe put down some chemicals and some fertilizers.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:51.039
So, in the the cost of avoiding the you know, that to do zero till has a lot less diesel per hectare than doing um you know, your your organic, sorry, not vegan, organic farming.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:00.720
And and it's like in wanting to do things without additives, they're actually creating a bigger need to use a fossil fuel and create emissions, which is slightly counter kind of now.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.480
I don't mean that to ridicule anybody, it's just you actually have to get the full facts, the full circular facts.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:20.480
Um, and that applies to so many of these very complicated um you know sustainability discussions where emotions might start it, but the answers are going to be science, thermodynamics, engineering, and and all the stuff that academia can support.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:30.559
I mean well, we're as a as an institution we're committed to the SDGs, we can work on that because it's the right thing to do, right?
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.400
But it's core to the values of the satellite, which is really important.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.799
I'm just thinking about your um international experience in particular.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:45.920
Scotland typically has been seen as well, originally was very international in outlook and then lost our way perhaps.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:57.519
What what advice would you be giving to uh to a business, a growth business, around internationalization and thinking about more than just the whole market?
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.240
Scotland, 5.3 million people.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:07.920
Uh I lived in central Shanghai, 22 million people, more people taking the subway every day than live in Scotland.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:09.359
So big opportunities.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:14.079
But if you're going to leave your home country, um two things never judge.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:22.400
You will meet different regulations, whether they are um homologations for cars, electrical safety, food and drink regulations, it's going to be different.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:23.599
Don't judge them.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.400
Put yourself in the shoes of the local market.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.440
You're the foreigner, you're the guy coming in from outside.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:31.200
So you do have to adapt.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.559
However, um, and be realistic, so do your research on that.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.119
Um, we mentioned the Global Scott Network.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:44.880
Use that to get good insights from people who are already in the market so that you've got as much resilience and preparation for when you go in.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.000
Don't be naive.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:52.240
Um, you know, we've we you cannot live on, you know, tartan, golf, and whiskey, right?
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.680
Those are great industries, those are good talking points when you meet people socially.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.319
They're meaningless if you're selling something else.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:07.359
So people, the the view that people have of Scotland, who when they're not living in Scotland, they're not Scots and they're in other countries, is quite different from our own image.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:21.359
So you actually, you know, as Rabbi Burns see ourselves as others see us, you really need to be out there and make sure you give, you, you think about yourself as you might think of a uh maybe a Chinese or a Korean company coming into Scotland.
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.880
Is there opportunity?
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.000
For sure there's opportunity, massive opportunity.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:38.880
You need to be cautious about who you engage with in terms of partners and in terms of you know the legal structures that you then get engaged with, because not everybody's going to go back to the Glasgow Sheriff Court if you have a dispute.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:44.079
Um, you need to understand what it means in terms of um exchange rates, in terms of liabilities.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:58.640
There's a whole bunch of sort of technical complications, but you will find really good resources available through Scottish Enterprise and a whole range of other um you know formal bodies that'll point in the direction ultimately to people who've done it before you.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:05.359
And that's where a bit of time listening and learning and understanding what that might mean to you could be very, very valuable.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:10.720
And also creating that community where people are willing to share experiences with each other.
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:21.680
They're more than and and that is one of the most delightful parts because you find that people do want to share and they're very open with it and they're very generous, probably even more so outside Scotland when you meet them.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:27.119
Um, you know, that they're they're delighted to see somebody from the old country, you know, and coming out and helping you.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:31.519
Um and but they're not naive, you know, because guess what, others have done it before.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:36.799
Um, but if you've got something really good, um also be selective about which market.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.160
Don't always go for the biggest and most glamorous and the most fashionable one.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.880
You know, I just said 22 million people in Shanghai.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.079
That's a tiny portion of the 1.4 billion people in China.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:51.440
So you've got to really understand that within you know just that one country, it doesn't fit.
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:57.359
If you draw it to the same scale as a map of Scotland and put it on a piece of paper, you need an awful lot more paper.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:03.839
You know, think about which country's economic stability and market potential match versus what you've got.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:16.720
Can you scale up appropriately for those different markets so that you're quite considerate about where you go and not just following what's um you know norm, you know, what people may say, oh, that's got to be the growth area to go for.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.440
So that that's also another massive consideration.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:30.319
And in doing that, can you protect yourself in terms of critical IP, because you can't IP everything, and good partnerships and good relationships, which may not work first time.
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:44.079
So huge opportunity, different pitfalls from operating at home, but be really selective and find those markets and you know make sure that should things not work out as you planned, it's not going to bring down your whole enterprise.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.559
Very top-line stuff, pretty generic.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.480
I'm sure most people have heard that before.
00:32:48.640 --> 00:33:07.599
But the one thing really is go and listen to your pals, you know, Global Scott Network, through the British Chambers of Commerce, through all of those different uh avenues, you will find people who will, you know, they'll quietly take you into a corner and give you some good advice or point in the direction of people that they have trusted and has worked for have worked for them.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:24.400
One lesson from from your career uh so far, let's say, that um you think everyone is that uh kind of key thing that everyone should just love that one thing that everyone should learn in their life at some point.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.240
It's be yourself.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:37.359
You know, it's so tempting to, you know, that within the culture you've got to respect the culture of the company you up you're working for, uh, but don't allow that to change your own fundamentals.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:47.200
Um, and I've been fortunate that I've worked with companies that do have good ethics and do have good um, did have very, very still do have very, very good principles that they're operating to.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.400
Um, but you've you've got to be authentic within that.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:34:03.759
And uh, you know, it's somehow doing that without you know, without feeling you as soon as you try to put on a persona or uh a facade, people will see through that.
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:14.079
Um, and of course it goes without saying in terms of ethics, you know, just because you're far from home and the phones don't work as well, you know, you're in Nigeria, it's early 1990s, and somebody offers you a backhander.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:15.039
Guess what?
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.440
Don't take it because it will come out in the wash and you've crossed that line.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:31.679
And never forget a very early meeting in a um in a bar in a in a in Lagos, and uh a good friend uh saying, Well, there's two types of people in here, those have crossed the line and those that haven't.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:33.360
So you've got choices to make some.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:45.519
And that's quite that can be really quite difficult because it creeps up on you, especially in other cultures, and people say, No, no, no, that's the norm here, no, no, that's just uh tea money, that's just you know, backsheesh, that's just whatever.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:52.719
And you've got to be clear in your own mind about how you deal with those things in a way that you know you would be comfortable with if they were made public.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.760
So that in your own personal integrity, and you know, just have a laugh doing it.
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.199
Well, I think that's a fantastic way of finishing, Neil.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.400
Thank you so much uh for sharing with us today.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:09.119
It's brilliant to have you part of the Inspire uh community.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:15.119
Um, we're blessed with uh talented, experienced people like you uh generously giving your time.
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:16.400
So thank you very much.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.360
John, I feel I'm almost here here under false pretensions.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:21.280
There's so many more who've given so much more.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:28.079
Uh you know, um I'm just very pleased to be able to do you know a small part and help, and thank you very much for the invitation today.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.280
That's it for this episode of Inspiring Conversations.
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:36.159
Uh, thanks for joining us, and uh look forward to seeing you for next month's episode.
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:41.280
Uh I'm John Anderson, and we've had the privilege of uh listening to Neil McDall today.
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:42.159
Thanks very much.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.880
Thank you.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.840
And that's it for this episode of Inspiring Conversations.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:52.000
Thank you for joining us, and remember to hit that subscribe or follow button on whichever platform you listen to your podcasts on.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.599
We'll be joined next month by another inspiring entrepreneurial leader.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:03.679
To find out more about Strathclyde Inspire, you can find us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter, or search for Strathclyde Inspire on the University of Strathclyde website.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:04.239
Thanks again.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:05.119
Bye now.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:24.160
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the University of Strathclyde Inspiring Conversation Series.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:39.280
I'm John Anderson, Director of Growth Programmes at Strathclyde Business School, and delighted to be joined by Strathclyde Inspired Entrepreneur Neil MacDonald, who has recently returned to Scotland and is offering his support to other entrepreneurs.
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:49.200
Neil has extensive international business experience, including over 12 years in senior technical and supply chain positions for the Coca-Cola company.
00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.920
Welcome, Neil, and thanks for joining us today.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:53.679
Thank you for inviting me, John.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:58.719
Somehow feel maybe I'm here under false percentes as I'm really an entrepreneur.
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I wouldn't maybe go with that definition, but I'm delighted to be here and share what I can and obviously learn from yourselves as well.
00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:07.359
So thank you very much for the invitation.
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:19.040
So to start, uh Neil, can you tell us a bit about yourself, your career, your background, and what did you set out to achieve and and and how's that turned out?
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:24.239
Yeah, well, so state school education in Scotland, which uh I have to say has served me well.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:29.840
Um, north, one of the suburbs in the north side of Glasgow, Glasgow University mechanical engineering degree.
00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:39.120
And that led me into working very close to here at Strathclyde in uh tenants brewery, where quite frankly, you learn about man management in a fairly brutal way.
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:43.760
Um, that was great because it rubs a lot of um edges off you.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:54.239
You really you learn the basics there about managing people, managing process, and doing that with uh an organization that had a very, very good management training and program.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:20.639
That led to me getting itchy feet after a few years, where I came to Strathclyde to do my MBA in 1919, 1991, uh which was again another fantastic experience, and popping out of that, I got an international role, which is when I first left the United Kingdom in the end of 1991, uh which basically with Pepsi Cole International, and I finished off heading to Nigeria, uh, which was the first overseas assignment.
00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:22.400
So quite good fun.
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:23.840
Do you want me to go on?
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:31.199
Because it's a long, it's a long 30 years since then, and many adventures and uh many many different experiences from there.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:35.599
So, given these multiple roles, this this to me is always really interesting.
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Some people think that they start a role or a career, and that's one company for life, one uh one career.
00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:53.599
Um experience suggests now that actually lots of different experiences uh is more helpful as you develop as a leader.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:07.520
Can you maybe share some of the things that you've learned from individual experiences, give some examples of really learned that one and I will I didn't know that I needed to know that type of thing.
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:18.719
So I started off and had no master plan, um, but you have a set of values and you have a certain skill set that you bring through training or engineering and the business combination.
00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:25.199
And you know, you just mentioned in the startup that I worked for Coca-Cola, and my first overseas job was with Pepsi Cola.
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:48.879
And the reason I was I believe I was acceptable to both was because you didn't switch uh to try and steal secrets from one another, you had genuine things that you could add to those organizations, and I was headhunted across from Pepsi to Coke through people who'd heard about what I did, um, and we did that in a way which was acceptable to both organizations, and that can go full circle.
00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:55.759
So, even as early, you know, you know, building and keeping trust with the people you deal with is incredibly important.
00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:11.360
And the guy who took me on in Pepsi in Nigeria, where I'd been working for the global company, the local bottler, who is a Lebanese Druze businessman, asked me to be seconded to run his supply chain very hands-on in the early mid-90s.
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:30.639
Um, and I met him again in December last year, and he was happy to invite me out to Lagos and revisit his business because even with all that change in time, he and I had a good relationship based on trust and based on integrity, which in a place like Nigeria can be quite challenging.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:45.040
Um, and those are the things where you learn that it's as much about you and your personal brand and what you bring in terms of values, rather than just saying, you know, here's a career and I'm out for myself, and it's only about me and I'm I'm only going to do one thing.
00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:56.399
And there's been a number of times where people you meet them later and they kind of reflect back on things which you maybe didn't think about yourself, but you realise that you maybe had an influence or an impact on them.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.439
Um, and you know, that's really, really rewarding.
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Um others, you know, you meet people where it's very clear that being a leader for them is just about the prestige, it's all about themselves, and I think people see through that pretty quick, especially Scots.
00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.959
Although not restricting, you know, most people see through that to be fair.
00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:24.079
So these experiences, this uh I often use the term curiosity, so instead of just plowing that thing, yeah.
00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:26.879
You know, you I think people are either curious or not.
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Strikes me, Neil, that you are a curious type, and that you know, do you you find experiences that then shape your leadership style, uh, the coaching approach you might take and things like that.
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What things in terms I mean, would you would you be would you agree you're kind of a curious individual for starting?
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Um I think so.
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I mean, I ask a lot of questions, and you have to be conscious that some people take that as you don't trust them because you're actually trying, you know, you're trying to shape up and understand things in a framework that you understand yourself.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:07.600
Um, but yeah, you're always wondering what next, why next, how would that work, uh, how do we push the boundaries?
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:13.360
And that also allows you, it creates opportunities, and then you have to have the follow-through and take the opportunities.
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:18.800
And that's one of the reasons that as a family, we've lived in nine countries in the world and traveled around a great deal.
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And you know, not being judgmental when you go to new locations is fundamental to that curiosity.
00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:32.639
If you've already prejudged a situation, a culture, a business setup, you know, a group of people that you're meeting, you're not going to really learn from them.
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.800
And to be curious, you have to put all of that out and just stop and listen.
00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:42.720
And although this conversation might not reflect it, you've got two ears and one mouth, and that's a good ratio to start with.
00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.279
Listen twice as much as you speak.
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.199
Um but that curiosity also extends to a number of different things.
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:50.639
What do you do outside work?
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.079
Are you looking beyond things which have made you successful in the past?
00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:56.079
What's changing in the world around you?
00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:58.720
Uh, what are the trends as opposed to the fads?
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:00.720
And just you know, what do you enjoy?
00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:02.480
Then do it with a bit of passion.
00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:16.879
So, just on that, the I really love the way you're explaining this in terms of it's not just, I mean, we see people frankly, you see people in a train and you look at them and they're not happy in their life and they're stuck.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:27.839
Um, you and I have and many of us within the Inspire community have been fortunate enough to get ourselves in interesting positions, probably about being curious, frankly, and taking some risks along the way.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:40.800
But how do you then help other people do that, other than to taking part in these podcasts and sharing your stories and just being very humble and authentic about that?
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:46.000
Um you I mean, you offer yourself through mentoring, through other support.
00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.199
There's some great organizations in Scotland that can connect people.
00:07:49.439 --> 00:08:01.199
The globally, there's the Global Scott Organisation, um, and then obviously there's organizations like Strathclyde Inspire, and we have the Hunter Foundation with everything from Scottish Edge, Scale Up Scotland, and the support that they give.
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:07.519
And those are areas where people, if they're they have to be open to wanting it, because you're not going to force them into it.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:24.720
Um, and they have to be curious themselves about um yeah, yes, determined, yes, have a certain level of um optimism and commitment to their own ideas as entrepreneurs, but also be open-minded to make sure they've got the guardrails around them from people who've got experience.
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:29.920
Um, and that can be a difficult balance because sometimes experience is a whoa, we wouldn't do that.
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:40.080
Um, but it's more a question of as having had a long career, you've got to be very cautious of how you um how you share some of those experiences.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.679
Because, as I said earlier, in terms of leadership, it's not about you.
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:58.480
Also, in terms of mentoring and supporting and guiding people, it's not about you, it's about helping people identify risks, identify opportunities, and do it in a way that's less likely to see them having a disruptive problem or or or catastrophe.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.879
Um, and that that's that's just pretty cool, you know.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:02.399
It's great to see success.
00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:08.240
Well, I can tell we could all tell just how enthusiastic you are about that.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:12.879
Can't see anything that is say, oh, I've come to the end of my career, what am I going to do?
00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:14.720
Actually, it's a completely new.
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:18.320
I mean, I've I'm in a career number four at the moment, for example.
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.120
Um I wish I was 30 years younger and could start again.
00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:28.799
I mean, it's just there is so much opportunity today, you know, from travel, from data, from access to information, from more open markets, etc.
00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:36.799
And you know, I don't mean that necessarily in terms of the political stuff, but just people are more open to trial and there's just so many opportunities there.
00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:38.399
Yeah, it's quite quite phenomenal.
00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.879
So we won't find you on the golf course every day of the week.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:41.519
No, you won't.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:43.519
You might find me on a boat, but no, not in a golf course.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:44.720
Not in a golf course.
00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.639
It's this this collective experience that you know, we're both global Scots.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:10:02.799
Um the concept there is giving back, yes, from you know, regardless of where you've been, you know, we're really committed to helping businesses in Scotland, you know, at a micro level with Strathclyde Inspire, it's about the Strathclyde community.
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:08.960
Would you describe yourself as an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial?
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:25.279
Or how would you because you know it's taken us over 20 years to get to this wonderful place of Strathclyde Inspire, you know, an institution-wide entrepreneurship strategy, accruing staff, alumni, students.
00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:29.279
It's a fantastic thing, but we have used the word entrepreneur a long time.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.879
I'm going to go back to something you mentioned first, which is giving back.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:47.279
And when you're on a nomadic global career with a big company or a number of big companies, um, and you're doing a lot of travel when you're based in a certain location, it's very difficult to give back to both your home country or to some of the communities that you're in.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:57.840
So having that now having stopped, that does give me the opportunity to use time to give back and both for sports and things I have a passion for and also to the business community.
00:10:58.080 --> 00:10:59.440
It's not completely charitable.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:05.519
It'd be great to get some, you know, some good paying work from it, it'd be great to get some advisory positions, etc.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.919
But fundamentally, you give your time because you want to support the success of others.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:27.600
And what's very interesting as an uh a Scotsman coming back to Scotland, having come from this education system, it's interesting to see how the universities and public sector are really trying to get some synergy between business, between people, and between innovations.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:38.080
Um, Scotland has got a great history of that, and we're now sort of starting to see through Scottish Enterprise, through a whole range, and there's so many of them that it's actually quite confusing.
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.879
Somebody should create a list of them to understand what they do.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.919
Are they competing for the same people for the same pots of money?
00:11:44.080 --> 00:12:01.759
But the fundamental behind that is there's a lot of intention and goodwill and resource available to say how do we take great ideas, empower people to run with it, give them the support, and at the right time introduce investment and ability to scale up and make those into really successful organizations.
00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:10.480
And that, you know, we're not alone in doing that here, but it's really good to see how not just Strathclyde but other universities in Scotland are all trying to do the same path.
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:24.080
So given your uh career new and clearly not a corporate, pure corporate man, you would you describe yourself as an entrepreneur or entrepreneurial, or what type of uh you know, is that something you would recognise as a term?
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:33.039
Maybe entrepreneurial in terms of thinking, uh, because even within the corporation, you're trying to look for new solutions that are maybe not part of the standard playbook.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:54.159
And there were a few examples that we had uh both in Central Europe with the Co-Kalenic team and out in China and areas where you're really trying to see, you can see a different business opportunity and you can understand that within an existing corporate ecosystem, it can be difficult for people to push against that and do something genuinely disruptive or supportive of change.
00:12:54.320 --> 00:13:03.200
Um, and I would hope that those who I work with would recognise within me some of those projects and ideas that I was always trying to champion and encourage.
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:12.320
Um, so I think of myself more as entrepreneurial of mindset, but I've never taken the personal risk to you know invest and put everything on the line and become a real entrepreneur.
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:17.600
And I'd think it would be wrong of me to pretend that, you know, it would be very quick, you'd find that I've not done that.
00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:26.399
And that's the great thing about those real entrepreneurs who are prepared to take that risk and to, and you know, some of them incredibly successful.
00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.600
And I don't think we're good enough at celebrating that in the country.
00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:36.879
The green jealousy comes out sometimes, and we don't like to admit that you know the boy next door was much more successful than me.
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.759
Um, our American cousins are better at doing that.
00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:52.399
Um, but we need you know, we've we've also um we do have some great entrepreneurial businesses in all the different sectors, um, and we should be learning from that and encouraging people to do that, to follow that same path.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.000
I really love that your entrepreneurial mindset, because that's what it is.
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.279
Yeah, you know, again, we go back, we've been teaching entrepreneurship at Strathclyde for 20 plus years.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:09.759
Uh and I remember those early days where can you use that word?
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.840
A very, you know, it's uh it was it was not a common thing.
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:47.919
In fact, one of the very early things which some uh listeners will remember would be there was a birthday strategy for Scotland as a sort of strategic thing that Scottish Enterprise produced, and the measure was uh they called the e-index, which was in in the in the broad media in mainstream media, how often the word entrepreneur was used, and the successory was a chart, it was amazing, not over five years of the number of times, because there was a long education process of the whole, you know, where are the role models?
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:59.919
Yeah, you know, we'd had this incredible uh wealth-creating nation which we seem to have lost direction on, and a lot of people have put the last 30 years of hard work to do that.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.080
I think it's changed markedly.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:07.200
I'm I'm I'm laughing at that because I see that you know you have a trigger point and a metric, and that's great.
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:12.639
And you know, suddenly you're nudging journalists to use that word, and that metric goes up and somebody gets a bonus.
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:26.240
Um, but we've got some great entrepreneurs in Scotland who maybe wouldn't recognise themselves as entrepreneurs, some of the big family businesses that have established in construction, in food and drink, and you know, in manufacturing, and they would just say, No, I'm just me, it's what I did.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.519
Um, but if you were to back-analyse it using today's terminology, absolutely they were entrepreneurs.
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:36.879
Um, and what we're again, it gets back to this thing about success and you know and failure.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:43.759
And we're kind of quick, our humour is very black humor, and we kind of always have a go at the guy that oh well he he messed it up.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:49.679
Um, but you know, let's celebrate that, the ones who tried, uh the ones who put their their efforts on the line.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:58.639
Um typically failure is not just because of incompetence or you know, um, you know, negative things that can be circumstantial.
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.960
Um, the market changing, the um you the people not identifying that.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:20.799
There's all sorts of reasons, but it's those who really try that we should be celebrating and and who bring people with them and train and support, and and um you know that is good to see that there's an increasing whatever terminology we use around it, it's really good to see that there's more focus on helping and supporting those who want to give it a go.
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:28.799
I think part of that also is this change of attitude, possibly culture, towards fear of failure.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:29.200
Yes.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:38.559
So again, Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, which North Clyde is part of uh as a representative Scotland, um always looks at this as a barrier.
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:39.759
You know, what's the barrier?
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:47.279
We're a small country, and also people feel that if you have a financial failure and you fail as a director, um that's a real stain on your character.
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:59.600
Uh, when you're in a much, much larger ecosystem, be that in the west coast of America or Asia, can you hide is it as important as opposed to your reputation and you know what appears in the you know the herald or the Scotsman?
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:05.839
Um so there is a bit of that in terms of a small community and your visibility within that community for trying and not being successful.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.440
And we still have some of that, you know, almost puritanical, oh he you know, he was financially a failure.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:19.359
Um, but we've got to kind of move past that um and find that a good balance that encourages people to take it on and give it a try.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:26.319
Um, not to and everybody knows when somebody's milking a system and taking lots of grants, they don't think they're going to pay back and all the rest of it.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.559
There's all there may well be bad behaviours.
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.319
Nobody wants to see that, but we really should be encouraging those.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:41.440
And and I've met so many really great entrepreneurs in the last three years who absolutely are doing that, and they that's that's really energizing and fantastic to see.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:48.880
Yeah, I think one of the interesting things is that failure is um it's a learning experience.
00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:50.799
This comes back to entrepreneurial mindset.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:52.559
So something's not worked, okay.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:54.319
Don't repeat the same thing, yeah.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:18:04.240
And that I think culturally that's where Scotland has changed in the last 20 years dramatically, because you've got environments where there are comfortable places.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:18.319
So Strathclyde Inspire, each of the elements of it, the work we do in the business school with peer learning and peer support and growth programs, create an environment where you learn from everyone else's mistakes.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:24.079
Uh if they're open, if they're willing to share those in a in this and feel comfortable about doing it.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.000
And that's the big change that I've seen.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.119
Yeah, yeah, is that there's more of a willingness to do that.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:37.440
It needs to be encouraged constantly because it just takes one takes one big whacker to to put everybody else in.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:43.599
One front front page of a of a of one of the tabloids and that we're back again.
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:49.920
But I think generally, and I think all of the work that we are doing collectively to spare some inspire community helps.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:19:09.039
And the great you know, the the one thing though is you know that the universities typically have their own inspire type organization, and it would be good to see more collaboration between them so that there is, you know, if if if there's a really good skill set or slightly more advanced research in one institution, there is a bit more sharing of that for the collective benefit.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:10.559
But you know, that's human nature.
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.480
You know, everyone's going to push their own team, their own uh their own club with their own organization.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.519
They again go back to the point of elbow behavior, it's definitely better than it used to be.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:20.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.960
And you know, let's celebrate that and the fact that it really is moving forward and it's the good stuff.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:32.400
You know, we mentioned failure, but no, it's all about success, it's all about those new organizations and guys who have really starting to hit their light fantastic.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:44.000
So you know you've you've got a particular passion and also expertise in in we'll call it sustainability, but you know, particularly UN uh United Nations sustainable development goals.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:57.359
Um, can you talk about how that's that passion has has you you've realized that passion and practically what we can do to support businesses and people on their data?
00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:58.640
It's something that creeps up on you.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:10.079
So you realise that you do things right from a technical perspective, you know, you get the right, you make the formula correctly, you make the product correctly, you get the quality right, and then you realize that you've actually got a much wider system supporting you.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.799
So are your suppliers doing it well or are they abusing people?
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:31.279
And that's when you realize that, you know, for all the derogatory comments made about big business and big food, and some of my previous employers, you know, Coca-Cola, a global company that gets quite a lot of bad press for some things, they were actually realized that reputational risk is an absolute killer for a company.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:46.799
And within that big marketing um engine, you know, 25 years ago we were eliminating um chromium from our supply chain and PVC, not because of anybody telling us to, but because we knew that would do bad stuff if it went into the effluent.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.839
And you need chromium to make red ink, so it's quite a difficult problem when your main brand is red.
00:20:52.160 --> 00:21:05.200
Then you realize that um, you know, through good publicity from NGOs pointing out about the bad malpractices and manufacturing of you know marketing materials, we need to make sure we understand how our suppliers are behaving.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:14.480
And supplier guiding principles became a really big, big focus in terms of making sure that suppliers were operating ethically and correctly and in a good way.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:19.839
And when an organization signs up to some of those goals, you think, ah goodness, what does this mean?
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.680
But what you realize is actually it's the best insurance policy you could have.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.119
You've got to be a step ahead of it, you've actually got to do things correctly.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:41.920
And although that might mean you know, an argument from one of my country managers saying that you know, I'm at a competitive disadvantage because I'm not using PVC for my labels and everybody else is, well, sorry, live with it and get on with it because we will have a long term competitive advantage.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:58.240
And you're now seeing that reflecting through in terms of not just people practices, but in terms of uh carbon and you try so the old supply chain ethos of cost, quality, and quantity being the three things that you manage, and managing any two of them is quite easy, but managing all three is a trade off.
00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.759
You've now got carbon to add.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:24.319
That and that will be your scope one, scope two, scope three carbon, and not just knowing what it is, but being able to do something about it, and that's where you start to realize that you can have a significant role, both in terms of um what you do within a large company and what you do as an entrepreneur and what you do with startup businesses by having an eye to the future for that and realizing like it or not, we shouldn't be overheating the planet.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.559
Like it or not, we should be understanding waste.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.160
And those are Scottish principles.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.960
You know, when we wear through our shoes, we get a new soul put on it.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.680
Some of our other colleagues would chuck them away and get a new pair.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:39.039
So we are thrifty by nature, so we're actually got a good mindset in terms of waste not, want not, right?
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.480
And those are actually that that's fundamental to good sustainable practices.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:23:03.759
And the other element of it that you realize it's actually about the hard stuff, it's about organic chemistry, it's about thermodynamics, it's about um uh understanding polymers, you know, plastic-free world sounds great, but you know, understanding polymers and polymer technology and how to change it, those are the things which will have a big impact.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:18.799
Um, and that to me creates massive opportunities, real opportunities for entrepreneurs and for other businesses to come and do something about it, rather than just sitting back and saying, this sustainability thing is putting more hurdles for me and more handicaps for my business.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:24.799
And that's what you realize as time goes on, and more and more of your focus, you know, the day-to-day works, it was looking ahead.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.839
Do we have good sources of agricultural products?
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.839
Are they free from contaminants?
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:38.400
And as you get more and better analysis of that to um greater fidelity, you realize there's a lot of stuff out there that you have to either clean up or not source from.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.839
So that's where it kind of grew up and came from.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:57.039
And that's where, particularly as you look ahead, I think there's a huge opportunity for business, both at a very small scale to help fix and at a global scale to help introduce and use those ideas to make sure we're on the right trajectory.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:08.960
I I find that I find that fascinating because what the programs that we're running for growth companies, we're presenting the changes that are happening that have to happen as opportunities.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.319
Use that absolutely, it's opportunity.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:22.960
If you think opportunity, where you are in that supply chain, how you can help your clients and their clients and their clients so that it is not just seen as this, you know.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.599
I I hate the term greenwashing because the media and and activists keep using it, not under sometimes they're right.
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:40.559
Yeah, and the problem is that I think I mean you just give us a perfect example of we started doing the right things 20 years ago because and and that's maybe a story it's not told well enough.
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:47.680
But it's a story you can't tell for yourself because it's all it's you know and and that's that that there's a bit of a difficulty there.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:25:06.240
Um and there are things where you can be critical of all sorts of global brands, um, you know, whether it's in pharmaceuticals or whether it's uh clothing or whether it's automotive or whatever, but fundamentally, if the um consumers lose trust in them, they will start to see big, big hurt to their bottom line.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:16.720
And when you have those responsibly run global companies, you will find that they are trying to get ahead of it and trying to do the right things, and they have actually got um as much of a need as anybody else.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:26.319
They are staffed by individuals who have grandparents, who have children, who have families, who have brothers and sisters, you know, they're they're actually staffed by people who also care.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:31.440
Um, so it's always that piece of finding that right dialogue with them to make it constructive.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.920
You know, Greenpeace and Shell, you know, guess what?
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:35.200
We all want clean oceans.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.759
I don't think anybody that I know that worked for Shell actually wants to pollute the oceans.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:47.039
But by the same token, you know, maybe sometimes corners get cut and things don't get done correctly, but guess what?
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.680
We still need the energy to run you know modern society, right?
00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:00.880
And we've got to have a joined up discussion on these things with taking a bit of the emotion out of it and avoiding people using it just to bang the drum about their single issue.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:01.200
Yeah.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:02.319
And the point score.
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:10.160
Remember, uh you'll probably know the story when when John Mackie was um getting whole foods in the US off the ground, you know.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:23.759
Um he talks about being in a big trade fair uh and they were sourcing individually, trying to s trying to source um organic foods for the US market and a huge market at that point.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:32.240
And there were activists, protesters in the corner, and uh he made a point of going over and engaging with them.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:32.799
Yes.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.759
And he talks, who everyone talks now today is about stakeholders, it's not about just the shareholders.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:43.279
Stakeholders include people whose voice you might not agree with, but they might have something.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:48.240
And he he is very explicit in his book and going, I hadn't thought about that.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.920
Let me go away and look at it.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:58.160
And again, if you look at good corporate governance, and uh I one of the things I did when I returned was the Financial Times non-exec directors course because it's thorough and deep.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:03.920
And your role as a director of a company is to stakeholders, not only to shareholders.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:15.839
So that means that you do have this wider responsibility to the world around you and not just to those who've invested directly into your business or your or your direct employees, and that's an interesting distinction.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:38.000
Um, and you know, you you look at some of these arguments and the different groups, and you know, if you take, for example, vegan agriculture, in the intention to make it chemical-free and all very nice, they actually can't do the zero-till agriculture where you don't plow and you minimize disruption of soil, but you maybe put down some chemicals and some fertilizers.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:51.039
So, in the the cost of avoiding the you know, that to do zero till has a lot less diesel per hectare than doing um you know, your your organic, sorry, not vegan, organic farming.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:00.720
And and it's like in wanting to do things without additives, they're actually creating a bigger need to use a fossil fuel and create emissions, which is slightly counter kind of now.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.480
I don't mean that to ridicule anybody, it's just you actually have to get the full facts, the full circular facts.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:20.480
Um, and that applies to so many of these very complicated um you know sustainability discussions where emotions might start it, but the answers are going to be science, thermodynamics, engineering, and and all the stuff that academia can support.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:30.559
I mean well, we're as a as an institution we're committed to the SDGs, we can work on that because it's the right thing to do, right?
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.400
But it's core to the values of the satellite, which is really important.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.799
I'm just thinking about your um international experience in particular.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:45.920
Scotland typically has been seen as well, originally was very international in outlook and then lost our way perhaps.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:57.519
What what advice would you be giving to uh to a business, a growth business, around internationalization and thinking about more than just the whole market?
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.240
Scotland, 5.3 million people.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:07.920
Uh I lived in central Shanghai, 22 million people, more people taking the subway every day than live in Scotland.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:09.359
So big opportunities.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:14.079
But if you're going to leave your home country, um two things never judge.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:22.400
You will meet different regulations, whether they are um homologations for cars, electrical safety, food and drink regulations, it's going to be different.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:23.599
Don't judge them.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.400
Put yourself in the shoes of the local market.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.440
You're the foreigner, you're the guy coming in from outside.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:31.200
So you do have to adapt.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.559
However, um, and be realistic, so do your research on that.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.119
Um, we mentioned the Global Scott Network.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:44.880
Use that to get good insights from people who are already in the market so that you've got as much resilience and preparation for when you go in.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.000
Don't be naive.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:52.240
Um, you know, we've we you cannot live on, you know, tartan, golf, and whiskey, right?
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.680
Those are great industries, those are good talking points when you meet people socially.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.319
They're meaningless if you're selling something else.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:07.359
So people, the the view that people have of Scotland, who when they're not living in Scotland, they're not Scots and they're in other countries, is quite different from our own image.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:21.359
So you actually, you know, as Rabbi Burns see ourselves as others see us, you really need to be out there and make sure you give, you, you think about yourself as you might think of a uh maybe a Chinese or a Korean company coming into Scotland.
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.880
Is there opportunity?
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.000
For sure there's opportunity, massive opportunity.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:38.880
You need to be cautious about who you engage with in terms of partners and in terms of you know the legal structures that you then get engaged with, because not everybody's going to go back to the Glasgow Sheriff Court if you have a dispute.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:44.079
Um, you need to understand what it means in terms of um exchange rates, in terms of liabilities.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:58.640
There's a whole bunch of sort of technical complications, but you will find really good resources available through Scottish Enterprise and a whole range of other um you know formal bodies that'll point in the direction ultimately to people who've done it before you.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:05.359
And that's where a bit of time listening and learning and understanding what that might mean to you could be very, very valuable.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:10.720
And also creating that community where people are willing to share experiences with each other.
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:21.680
They're more than and and that is one of the most delightful parts because you find that people do want to share and they're very open with it and they're very generous, probably even more so outside Scotland when you meet them.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:27.119
Um, you know, that they're they're delighted to see somebody from the old country, you know, and coming out and helping you.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:31.519
Um and but they're not naive, you know, because guess what, others have done it before.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:36.799
Um, but if you've got something really good, um also be selective about which market.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.160
Don't always go for the biggest and most glamorous and the most fashionable one.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.880
You know, I just said 22 million people in Shanghai.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.079
That's a tiny portion of the 1.4 billion people in China.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:51.440
So you've got to really understand that within you know just that one country, it doesn't fit.
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:57.359
If you draw it to the same scale as a map of Scotland and put it on a piece of paper, you need an awful lot more paper.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:03.839
You know, think about which country's economic stability and market potential match versus what you've got.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:16.720
Can you scale up appropriately for those different markets so that you're quite considerate about where you go and not just following what's um you know norm, you know, what people may say, oh, that's got to be the growth area to go for.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.440
So that that's also another massive consideration.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:30.319
And in doing that, can you protect yourself in terms of critical IP, because you can't IP everything, and good partnerships and good relationships, which may not work first time.
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:44.079
So huge opportunity, different pitfalls from operating at home, but be really selective and find those markets and you know make sure that should things not work out as you planned, it's not going to bring down your whole enterprise.
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.559
Very top-line stuff, pretty generic.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.480
I'm sure most people have heard that before.
00:32:48.640 --> 00:33:07.599
But the one thing really is go and listen to your pals, you know, Global Scott Network, through the British Chambers of Commerce, through all of those different uh avenues, you will find people who will, you know, they'll quietly take you into a corner and give you some good advice or point in the direction of people that they have trusted and has worked for have worked for them.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:24.400
One lesson from from your career uh so far, let's say, that um you think everyone is that uh kind of key thing that everyone should just love that one thing that everyone should learn in their life at some point.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.240
It's be yourself.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:37.359
You know, it's so tempting to, you know, that within the culture you've got to respect the culture of the company you up you're working for, uh, but don't allow that to change your own fundamentals.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:47.200
Um, and I've been fortunate that I've worked with companies that do have good ethics and do have good um, did have very, very still do have very, very good principles that they're operating to.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.400
Um, but you've you've got to be authentic within that.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:34:03.759
And uh, you know, it's somehow doing that without you know, without feeling you as soon as you try to put on a persona or uh a facade, people will see through that.
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:14.079
Um, and of course it goes without saying in terms of ethics, you know, just because you're far from home and the phones don't work as well, you know, you're in Nigeria, it's early 1990s, and somebody offers you a backhander.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:15.039
Guess what?
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.440
Don't take it because it will come out in the wash and you've crossed that line.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:31.679
And never forget a very early meeting in a um in a bar in a in a in Lagos, and uh a good friend uh saying, Well, there's two types of people in here, those have crossed the line and those that haven't.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:33.360
So you've got choices to make some.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:45.519
And that's quite that can be really quite difficult because it creeps up on you, especially in other cultures, and people say, No, no, no, that's the norm here, no, no, that's just uh tea money, that's just you know, backsheesh, that's just whatever.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:52.719
And you've got to be clear in your own mind about how you deal with those things in a way that you know you would be comfortable with if they were made public.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.760
So that in your own personal integrity, and you know, just have a laugh doing it.
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.199
Well, I think that's a fantastic way of finishing, Neil.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.400
Thank you so much uh for sharing with us today.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:09.119
It's brilliant to have you part of the Inspire uh community.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:15.119
Um, we're blessed with uh talented, experienced people like you uh generously giving your time.
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:16.400
So thank you very much.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.360
John, I feel I'm almost here here under false pretensions.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:21.280
There's so many more who've given so much more.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:28.079
Uh you know, um I'm just very pleased to be able to do you know a small part and help, and thank you very much for the invitation today.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.280
That's it for this episode of Inspiring Conversations.
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:36.159
Uh, thanks for joining us, and uh look forward to seeing you for next month's episode.
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:41.280
Uh I'm John Anderson, and we've had the privilege of uh listening to Neil McDall today.
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:42.159
Thanks very much.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.880
Thank you.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.840
And that's it for this episode of Inspiring Conversations.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:52.000
Thank you for joining us, and remember to hit that subscribe or follow button on whichever platform you listen to your podcasts on.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.599
We'll be joined next month by another inspiring entrepreneurial leader.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:03.679
To find out more about Strathclyde Inspire, you can find us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter, or search for Strathclyde Inspire on the University of Strathclyde website.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:04.239
Thanks again.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:05.119
Bye now.
