00:00:00Welcome And Series Purpose
00:01:24When “Choose” Feels Like Betrayal
00:05:54Hearing The Child Without Using Them
00:08:58Handover Stress And Messenger Kids
00:12:39Risk, Acrimony, And Refocusing On Needs
ÜBER DIESE EPISODE
“Where do you want to stay this weekend?” can sound caring, but to a child caught between separated parents it can feel like being asked who to betray. I’m Kim Lee, a child and adolescent psychotherapist, and I’m exploring the quiet, unspoken wish many children hold: please don’t make me choose.
I break down the crucial difference between giving children a voice and making them responsible for adult decisions in separation, divorce, and child custody arrangements. We look at why kids may give different answers in different homes, why a shrug or silence can be self-protection, and why strong statements like “I don’t want to see my dad” must be heard carefully with real curiosity and safeguarding in mind. I also reflect on how family court dynamics, CAFCASS involvement, and adult “rights” language can pull focus away from the child’s needs under the Children Act.
You’ll hear what handovers can represent emotionally, why children get pushed into messenger roles, and how even “neutral” questions about the other house can make ordinary conversation feel unsafe. I share simple, grounded language that keeps the child out of the adult conflict while still taking their feelings seriously, so co-parenting becomes less about winning time and more about protecting wellbeing.
If this resonates, subscribe, share with a co-parent or professional who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these conversations. What’s one question you’ve heard that accidentally puts a child in the middle?
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TRANSKRIPT 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:01.679
Hello and welcome back.
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.799
This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist.
00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:10.640
This is the next episode in the series I Wish My Parents Would.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:12.800
I should apologize first of all.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:22.399
I've been rather involved in my other job and therefore haven't been able to follow up as quickly as I would have liked.
00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:28.480
But now I'm going to be turning my attention back to the um the podcasts.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:56.799
Now the the reason for for doing these podcasts, or rather this particular series, is because as I said in the introduction before the first episode, very often I will hear things in the consulting room or see things in the consulting room which lead to then having a discussion with the child about things which very probably that child won't tell their parents.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:23.920
As I said previously, this isn't a criticism, it's much more the the sort of position that children end up placed in and what they are holding, and sometimes what they are holding is incredibly conflicting, and that can then sometimes give rise to symptomatic behaviors, which is then what really causes them to come into therapy.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:30.879
So I wish my parents wouldn't ask me to choose that's the title of this episode.
00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:36.480
So Dad asks whether I want to stay with him for another night.
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:42.079
Mum asks why didn't I telephone her while I was there?
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.280
Dad says I'm old enough to decide.
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:52.159
Mum says she won't get angry, whatever happens, but I can tell that she's upset.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:59.840
Sometimes they both ask me what I want, but what I really want is not to have to answer.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.000
In the first episode we considered the child who wished to be noticed before having to shout.
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:15.039
This time, I want to think about children whose parents have separated and the burden that can be placed upon them when they're asked to choose.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.159
We often hear that children should have a voice.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:19.599
Well, yes, they should.
00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.280
Their feelings and experiences and wishes matter.
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.479
They shouldn't be silenced simply because the adults find that what they have to say is uncomfortable.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:38.560
But there's an important difference between allowing a child to have a voice and making that child responsible for a decision.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:40.639
So, where do you want to live?
00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.039
Do you want to see your dad this weekend?
00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:45.919
Would you rather spend Christmas with me or Ma?
00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:54.479
Now these may sound in some ways a bit like considerate questions, but and a parent may genuinely believe they're giving the child some control.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.879
But to the child, the question may mean something quite different.
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.000
Which parent are you prepared to hurt?
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:08.719
Children usually understand far more about the emotional world around them than adults realize.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:16.319
They notice the hesitation before a parent speaks and they hear the alteration in tone when the other parent's name is mentioned.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:22.000
They see disappointment in a face, even when the words say it's entirely up to you.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:28.159
The child may know that there is no answer that leaves everybody happy.
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:31.120
If they choose one parent, what will happen to the other?
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:32.639
Will mum be lonely?
00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:34.800
Will dad think I don't love him?
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.439
Will one parent become angry?
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:39.520
Will the other start crying?
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:48.319
Will my answer be repeated in court or to a solicitor or to a social worker or during the next argument?
00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:55.120
A question presented as freedom can therefore be experienced as an emotional test.
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.719
And some children try to give each parent the answer they think that parent needs.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.240
They tell mum they want to remain with her.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.639
Later they tell dad they wish they could stay longer with him.
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:16.319
Now, this might be described as inconsistency, manipulation, or dishonesty, but it's none of those things.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:23.279
The child might be trying to preserve two important relationships in a situation they can't control.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.000
And their answers alter because the emotional circumstances alter.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:35.439
In each home, they're responding to a different parent, a different atmosphere, and a different fear of loss.
00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:37.600
Other children refuse to answer.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.240
They might say, I don't mind, they just shrug.
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.639
Or they become irritable or leave the room.
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:47.920
They may appear obstructive, but their refusal can be a form of protection.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:55.519
If every available answer feels dangerous, nothing that they say is going to be helpful.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:56.720
So they say nothing.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.360
And that's the safest response.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:09.120
Some children can make very definite choices, and they may insist that they want to live with one parent or that they no longer want to see the other.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:17.600
Now, such statements must be taken seriously, but taking a child seriously doesn't mean accepting the statement without curiosity.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.240
We need to understand what surrounds it.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:21.519
Is the child frightened?
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:22.959
Have they been harmed?
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.360
Are there safeguarding concerns?
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.639
Are they trying to escape conflict between the parents?
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:34.959
Do they feel responsible for protecting a parent or have they become angry with the other one?
00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:44.480
Or are they expressing something that's developed through their own experience with that parent or something they believe they are expected to say and be?
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.480
There's no single explanation.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:54.000
And that's precisely why the child's voice must be heard carefully rather than used quickly.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:06:03.120
There are circumstances in which a child's resistance to contact reflects genuine fear or an experience of harm.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:15.120
And no child should be persuaded into unsafe contact merely because adults believe that maintaining a relationship with both parents is always preferable.
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:33.199
I really do find that interesting because very often when I'm involved in cases, and unfortunately far too many of them, where social worker involves CAFCAS, there is an adversarial exchange between solicitors, and there's all sorts of stuff going off in the background.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:42.240
You know, very often what I come into contact with is the qu the question that I ask: whose rights are we talking about?
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.959
Whose needs are we talking about?
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:54.800
And to some extent, I see this played out in court quite a lot, where somehow the child gets lost.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:07:00.959
What becomes the the centerpiece of discussion is who can have how much of the child.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:08.720
And of course, it's that that's nonsensical because as a parent, you don't have an automatic right to have contact with the child.
00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:10.720
I have a right to see my children.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.319
Actually, that is the beginning of a sentence.
00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:15.759
There's a lot more to it than that.
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:21.040
And to be honest, a child's rights under the Children Act outweigh yours considerably.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:29.040
Therefore, yes, you may have a right, and the child has a right to contact you, but that contact should not be injurious.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:37.279
That contact should be within reasonable bounds, focused upon the needs and understanding of the child.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:49.519
So I think when parents uh when children start to say, I don't want to, or they might not say, they may show, then I think the task is about listening.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:54.800
And a parent might say, I want to know how things are for you.
00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:00.079
You can tell me if you're worried or unhappy or frightened, I'll listen.
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:06.720
But the grown-ups take responsibility for deciding what happens, and you don't have to choose between us.
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.560
And that's not the same as saying you're old enough now, you decide.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.120
Because age doesn't remove conflict.
00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:21.279
An adolescent may be able to express a clear view but still feel responsible for the emotional consequences of expressing it.
00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:44.240
They're concerned, for example, that as their social lives have changed, and that you know, one parent might live some way away from the child's or young person's social circle, access to their peer group is going to be restricted or is going to be determined by which weekend I'm where, and so on.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:57.200
And yet simultaneously not feel able to say anything to the parent because they will feel guilt if that parent then becomes upset or disappointed.
00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:09.120
So I think I think it's really important that we we understand this and and see it through the eyes of the child.
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:26.320
Now, adults may focus on the immediate behaviour that they see when maybe a child complains of headaches before moving between homes or become angry or frightened as the weekend approaches.
00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:36.720
They may forget belongings, develop stomach pains, refuse to pack or become distressed over what appears to be a very small change of plan.
00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:41.919
And on their return, some children are actually quite distressed.
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.120
And I don't want to say all children, some children.
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.320
And adults may focus on the immediate behavior.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.679
You know, why does every handover have to become such a drama?
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:56.480
But the handover may represent much more than travelling from one house to another.
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:11.200
You know, it may in it it may involve leaving one parent behind, entering another emotional atmosphere, adjusting to different expectations, and carrying information between two worlds that don't feel safely connected.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.120
And sometimes children become messengers, and I think this is awful.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.279
Tell your mother, etc., etc.
00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:19.759
Ask your father, etc., etc.
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:32.080
And and you know this inability between the adults to communicate rationally and respectfully is something that then becomes internalized.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:45.200
I remember a parent saying to me, I don't go to the house, I wait in the car, and when I pick the children up, I don't I don't I don't go to the door.
00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:55.519
And I think I said something like, Well, I I can see that for you that may be difficult, but what message does that give to the children?
00:10:55.759 --> 00:11:02.240
You know, leaving one environment and going to another with no contact between the adults.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.080
How how does that feel?
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:06.559
And and think about it from the point of view of how old.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:08.639
Are we talking about adolescents?
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:09.679
And certainly not.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:25.200
We're we're not just adolescents, we're talking about children, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, getting out of one car, walking down a pathway and knocking on a door, you know, and and and then and then you know, su something similar at the other end.
00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.000
It's it's it's quite bizarre.
00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:43.840
But I think the other thing is even sometimes neutral exchanges with with the child, or apparently neutral questions can be experienced as and can actually be quite loaded.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.000
What did you do at dad's?
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:47.919
Who was at mum's house?
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.240
Did your dad say anything about me?
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:51.919
How did mum seem?
00:11:52.159 --> 00:12:02.639
You know, a child may begin monitoring what can safely be said in each home, and they learn to edit their experiences, conceal enjoyment, and anticipate adult reactions.
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:06.960
You know, a happy weekend with one parent may feel like a betrayal of the other.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:16.320
So the child may stop speaking freely, not because nothing has happened, but because ordinary conversation has suddenly become emotionally dangerous.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.200
What might the children wish to say?
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.000
Please don't make me report on the other house.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.039
Please don't look hurt when I say I had a good time.
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.399
Please speak to each other instead of sending messages through me.
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.919
Please don't ask me to prove which one of you I love most.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:39.519
And perhaps most importantly, please let me love you both without feeling disloyal to either.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.679
Now, of course, separation involves considerable pain.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:50.159
There may have been betrayal, abuse, coercive control, or serious concerns about parenting.
00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:59.039
Neutrality between adults isn't always possible and it should never be manufactured where doing so would obscure risk.
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:09.519
But even in a highly difficult situation, the child should not be recruited into resolving the adult relationship.
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:19.679
A child can be told there are difficulties between the grown-ups and we're working out how to keep things safe.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.159
They don't need to be told.
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.200
You must decide which of us is telling the truth.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:35.600
For separated parents, one of the most protective things they can communicate is that the child's relationship with the other parent doesn't have to mirror their own.
00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:45.200
The other thing I would say is that in my experience, very often I will work with parents who can be highly acrimonious.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.080
I see it played out in the consulting room.
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:58.879
And when I'm trying to offer parental guidance to such parents, the different the reasons why they're not together become apparent very quickly.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:13.200
When that happens, what it shows me is that the child is going to be lost in all of this because the child is having to navigate between two parents who can't stand each other.
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.879
And you know, if I if I can see that, the child is definitely going to experience it.
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:25.600
And so it's at that point that I say we are not doing that, we are not having that kind of exchange.
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.480
We're not going to have a demonstration of what's wrong between you.
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.120
That that is not relevant.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.120
Um, that's not why we're here.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:40.879
And the reason I do that is because I want to orientate people's attention towards the child.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:49.200
Because what I want to be able to do is to have them develop a working relationship.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:55.919
I want them to understand that their needs take second place to those of the child.
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.360
For that to happen, they have to have a shared understanding.
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.639
And in some ways, then I'm sort of speaking for the child.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.600
This this is maybe what it's like for this child.
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.200
And this is why you've come to me.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:15.120
Because I'll only be taking or working with parents in that way if their child is in therapy with me.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:26.159
And what I'm hoping, it's it's an it's a kind of educational approach, insofar as it says, look, I understand that you hate each other, but we we can't get into that.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:27.840
You have to take that someplace else.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:34.559
In this room, our focus has to be on the child, and I can't deviate from that.
00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:40.480
And so, in a sense, what I'm doing is offering an independent perspective.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:55.360
That is, look, let's understand what this is like for the child, let's understand how children internalize these things, how they have to try and navigate them, but don't have a language or the authority to be able to communicate them.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.399
So they're stuck.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.000
Where does the stuckness go?
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:05.919
Well, through the acting out of school, through uh you know, a whole host of um other symptomatic behaviors.
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:21.919
If we can understand what it is that this child has internalized from you both, then the split that that's created in them that's reflecting the split between you.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.440
We have to close the gap.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.000
If we close the gap between the adults, the gap inside the child starts to close.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:37.759
And it's hard because adults may be very angry, they might be very hurt, they they might be in impossible situations.
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.080
Nonetheless, the task is the same.
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.519
How the hurt and anger and everything else gets dealt with is another question.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:17:01.279
So asking a child to choose isn't just it's not just about the words, it's about the behaviors that are demonstrated.
00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.600
I hope this has been helpful.
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.119
In the next episode, I want to talk about another unspoken wish.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:14.400
And that is, I wish my parents would stop making me responsible for how they feel.
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:15.440
Thank you for listening.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:01.679
Hello and welcome back.
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.799
This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist.
00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:10.640
This is the next episode in the series I Wish My Parents Would.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:12.800
I should apologize first of all.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:22.399
I've been rather involved in my other job and therefore haven't been able to follow up as quickly as I would have liked.
00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:28.480
But now I'm going to be turning my attention back to the um the podcasts.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:56.799
Now the the reason for for doing these podcasts, or rather this particular series, is because as I said in the introduction before the first episode, very often I will hear things in the consulting room or see things in the consulting room which lead to then having a discussion with the child about things which very probably that child won't tell their parents.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:23.920
As I said previously, this isn't a criticism, it's much more the the sort of position that children end up placed in and what they are holding, and sometimes what they are holding is incredibly conflicting, and that can then sometimes give rise to symptomatic behaviors, which is then what really causes them to come into therapy.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:30.879
So I wish my parents wouldn't ask me to choose that's the title of this episode.
00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:36.480
So Dad asks whether I want to stay with him for another night.
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:42.079
Mum asks why didn't I telephone her while I was there?
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.280
Dad says I'm old enough to decide.
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:52.159
Mum says she won't get angry, whatever happens, but I can tell that she's upset.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:59.840
Sometimes they both ask me what I want, but what I really want is not to have to answer.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.000
In the first episode we considered the child who wished to be noticed before having to shout.
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:15.039
This time, I want to think about children whose parents have separated and the burden that can be placed upon them when they're asked to choose.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.159
We often hear that children should have a voice.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:19.599
Well, yes, they should.
00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.280
Their feelings and experiences and wishes matter.
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.479
They shouldn't be silenced simply because the adults find that what they have to say is uncomfortable.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:38.560
But there's an important difference between allowing a child to have a voice and making that child responsible for a decision.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:40.639
So, where do you want to live?
00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.039
Do you want to see your dad this weekend?
00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:45.919
Would you rather spend Christmas with me or Ma?
00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:54.479
Now these may sound in some ways a bit like considerate questions, but and a parent may genuinely believe they're giving the child some control.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.879
But to the child, the question may mean something quite different.
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.000
Which parent are you prepared to hurt?
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:08.719
Children usually understand far more about the emotional world around them than adults realize.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:16.319
They notice the hesitation before a parent speaks and they hear the alteration in tone when the other parent's name is mentioned.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:22.000
They see disappointment in a face, even when the words say it's entirely up to you.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:28.159
The child may know that there is no answer that leaves everybody happy.
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:31.120
If they choose one parent, what will happen to the other?
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:32.639
Will mum be lonely?
00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:34.800
Will dad think I don't love him?
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.439
Will one parent become angry?
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:39.520
Will the other start crying?
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:48.319
Will my answer be repeated in court or to a solicitor or to a social worker or during the next argument?
00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:55.120
A question presented as freedom can therefore be experienced as an emotional test.
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.719
And some children try to give each parent the answer they think that parent needs.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.240
They tell mum they want to remain with her.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.639
Later they tell dad they wish they could stay longer with him.
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:16.319
Now, this might be described as inconsistency, manipulation, or dishonesty, but it's none of those things.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:23.279
The child might be trying to preserve two important relationships in a situation they can't control.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.000
And their answers alter because the emotional circumstances alter.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:35.439
In each home, they're responding to a different parent, a different atmosphere, and a different fear of loss.
00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:37.600
Other children refuse to answer.
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They might say, I don't mind, they just shrug.
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Or they become irritable or leave the room.
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They may appear obstructive, but their refusal can be a form of protection.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:55.519
If every available answer feels dangerous, nothing that they say is going to be helpful.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:56.720
So they say nothing.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.360
And that's the safest response.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:09.120
Some children can make very definite choices, and they may insist that they want to live with one parent or that they no longer want to see the other.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:17.600
Now, such statements must be taken seriously, but taking a child seriously doesn't mean accepting the statement without curiosity.
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We need to understand what surrounds it.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:21.519
Is the child frightened?
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:22.959
Have they been harmed?
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.360
Are there safeguarding concerns?
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.639
Are they trying to escape conflict between the parents?
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:34.959
Do they feel responsible for protecting a parent or have they become angry with the other one?
00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:44.480
Or are they expressing something that's developed through their own experience with that parent or something they believe they are expected to say and be?
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.480
There's no single explanation.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:54.000
And that's precisely why the child's voice must be heard carefully rather than used quickly.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:06:03.120
There are circumstances in which a child's resistance to contact reflects genuine fear or an experience of harm.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:15.120
And no child should be persuaded into unsafe contact merely because adults believe that maintaining a relationship with both parents is always preferable.
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:33.199
I really do find that interesting because very often when I'm involved in cases, and unfortunately far too many of them, where social worker involves CAFCAS, there is an adversarial exchange between solicitors, and there's all sorts of stuff going off in the background.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:42.240
You know, very often what I come into contact with is the qu the question that I ask: whose rights are we talking about?
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.959
Whose needs are we talking about?
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:54.800
And to some extent, I see this played out in court quite a lot, where somehow the child gets lost.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:07:00.959
What becomes the the centerpiece of discussion is who can have how much of the child.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:08.720
And of course, it's that that's nonsensical because as a parent, you don't have an automatic right to have contact with the child.
00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:10.720
I have a right to see my children.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.319
Actually, that is the beginning of a sentence.
00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:15.759
There's a lot more to it than that.
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:21.040
And to be honest, a child's rights under the Children Act outweigh yours considerably.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:29.040
Therefore, yes, you may have a right, and the child has a right to contact you, but that contact should not be injurious.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:37.279
That contact should be within reasonable bounds, focused upon the needs and understanding of the child.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:49.519
So I think when parents uh when children start to say, I don't want to, or they might not say, they may show, then I think the task is about listening.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:54.800
And a parent might say, I want to know how things are for you.
00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:00.079
You can tell me if you're worried or unhappy or frightened, I'll listen.
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:06.720
But the grown-ups take responsibility for deciding what happens, and you don't have to choose between us.
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.560
And that's not the same as saying you're old enough now, you decide.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.120
Because age doesn't remove conflict.
00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:21.279
An adolescent may be able to express a clear view but still feel responsible for the emotional consequences of expressing it.
00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:44.240
They're concerned, for example, that as their social lives have changed, and that you know, one parent might live some way away from the child's or young person's social circle, access to their peer group is going to be restricted or is going to be determined by which weekend I'm where, and so on.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:57.200
And yet simultaneously not feel able to say anything to the parent because they will feel guilt if that parent then becomes upset or disappointed.
00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:09.120
So I think I think it's really important that we we understand this and and see it through the eyes of the child.
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:26.320
Now, adults may focus on the immediate behaviour that they see when maybe a child complains of headaches before moving between homes or become angry or frightened as the weekend approaches.
00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:36.720
They may forget belongings, develop stomach pains, refuse to pack or become distressed over what appears to be a very small change of plan.
00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:41.919
And on their return, some children are actually quite distressed.
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.120
And I don't want to say all children, some children.
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.320
And adults may focus on the immediate behavior.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.679
You know, why does every handover have to become such a drama?
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:56.480
But the handover may represent much more than travelling from one house to another.
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:11.200
You know, it may in it it may involve leaving one parent behind, entering another emotional atmosphere, adjusting to different expectations, and carrying information between two worlds that don't feel safely connected.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.120
And sometimes children become messengers, and I think this is awful.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.279
Tell your mother, etc., etc.
00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:19.759
Ask your father, etc., etc.
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:32.080
And and you know this inability between the adults to communicate rationally and respectfully is something that then becomes internalized.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:45.200
I remember a parent saying to me, I don't go to the house, I wait in the car, and when I pick the children up, I don't I don't I don't go to the door.
00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:55.519
And I think I said something like, Well, I I can see that for you that may be difficult, but what message does that give to the children?
00:10:55.759 --> 00:11:02.240
You know, leaving one environment and going to another with no contact between the adults.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.080
How how does that feel?
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:06.559
And and think about it from the point of view of how old.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:08.639
Are we talking about adolescents?
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:09.679
And certainly not.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:25.200
We're we're not just adolescents, we're talking about children, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, getting out of one car, walking down a pathway and knocking on a door, you know, and and and then and then you know, su something similar at the other end.
00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.000
It's it's it's quite bizarre.
00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:43.840
But I think the other thing is even sometimes neutral exchanges with with the child, or apparently neutral questions can be experienced as and can actually be quite loaded.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.000
What did you do at dad's?
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:47.919
Who was at mum's house?
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.240
Did your dad say anything about me?
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:51.919
How did mum seem?
00:11:52.159 --> 00:12:02.639
You know, a child may begin monitoring what can safely be said in each home, and they learn to edit their experiences, conceal enjoyment, and anticipate adult reactions.
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:06.960
You know, a happy weekend with one parent may feel like a betrayal of the other.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:16.320
So the child may stop speaking freely, not because nothing has happened, but because ordinary conversation has suddenly become emotionally dangerous.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.200
What might the children wish to say?
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.000
Please don't make me report on the other house.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.039
Please don't look hurt when I say I had a good time.
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.399
Please speak to each other instead of sending messages through me.
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.919
Please don't ask me to prove which one of you I love most.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:39.519
And perhaps most importantly, please let me love you both without feeling disloyal to either.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.679
Now, of course, separation involves considerable pain.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:50.159
There may have been betrayal, abuse, coercive control, or serious concerns about parenting.
00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:59.039
Neutrality between adults isn't always possible and it should never be manufactured where doing so would obscure risk.
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:09.519
But even in a highly difficult situation, the child should not be recruited into resolving the adult relationship.
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:19.679
A child can be told there are difficulties between the grown-ups and we're working out how to keep things safe.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.159
They don't need to be told.
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.200
You must decide which of us is telling the truth.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:35.600
For separated parents, one of the most protective things they can communicate is that the child's relationship with the other parent doesn't have to mirror their own.
00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:45.200
The other thing I would say is that in my experience, very often I will work with parents who can be highly acrimonious.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.080
I see it played out in the consulting room.
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:58.879
And when I'm trying to offer parental guidance to such parents, the different the reasons why they're not together become apparent very quickly.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:13.200
When that happens, what it shows me is that the child is going to be lost in all of this because the child is having to navigate between two parents who can't stand each other.
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.879
And you know, if I if I can see that, the child is definitely going to experience it.
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:25.600
And so it's at that point that I say we are not doing that, we are not having that kind of exchange.
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.480
We're not going to have a demonstration of what's wrong between you.
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.120
That that is not relevant.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.120
Um, that's not why we're here.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:40.879
And the reason I do that is because I want to orientate people's attention towards the child.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:49.200
Because what I want to be able to do is to have them develop a working relationship.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:55.919
I want them to understand that their needs take second place to those of the child.
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.360
For that to happen, they have to have a shared understanding.
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.639
And in some ways, then I'm sort of speaking for the child.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.600
This this is maybe what it's like for this child.
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.200
And this is why you've come to me.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:15.120
Because I'll only be taking or working with parents in that way if their child is in therapy with me.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:26.159
And what I'm hoping, it's it's an it's a kind of educational approach, insofar as it says, look, I understand that you hate each other, but we we can't get into that.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:27.840
You have to take that someplace else.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:34.559
In this room, our focus has to be on the child, and I can't deviate from that.
00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:40.480
And so, in a sense, what I'm doing is offering an independent perspective.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:55.360
That is, look, let's understand what this is like for the child, let's understand how children internalize these things, how they have to try and navigate them, but don't have a language or the authority to be able to communicate them.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.399
So they're stuck.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.000
Where does the stuckness go?
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:05.919
Well, through the acting out of school, through uh you know, a whole host of um other symptomatic behaviors.
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:21.919
If we can understand what it is that this child has internalized from you both, then the split that that's created in them that's reflecting the split between you.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.440
We have to close the gap.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.000
If we close the gap between the adults, the gap inside the child starts to close.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:37.759
And it's hard because adults may be very angry, they might be very hurt, they they might be in impossible situations.
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.080
Nonetheless, the task is the same.
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.519
How the hurt and anger and everything else gets dealt with is another question.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:17:01.279
So asking a child to choose isn't just it's not just about the words, it's about the behaviors that are demonstrated.
00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.600
I hope this has been helpful.
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.119
In the next episode, I want to talk about another unspoken wish.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:14.400
And that is, I wish my parents would stop making me responsible for how they feel.
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:15.440
Thank you for listening.
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