Hindu Infidels

Richard Landes: Welcome to Infidel Awareness Month. This month you've heard from Christians, Jews, ex-Muslims, Muslim dissidents, but today we turn to the civilization that has endured the jihad longer and at greater cost than any other on earth, and that almost no one in the West even thinks about the Hindus of India. A billion people, the largest population of so-called infidels in the world. And the history is staggering, and most Westerners know none of it. Islamic armies reached India in the eighth century, and what followed was more than a thousand years of war, invasion, conquest, temple destruction, the slaughter on a scale with few parallels in human history, and the story is not in the past. The partition massacres of millions in 1947, the near disappearance of Hindus from Pakistan, the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits from their ancestral valley in 1990, the Mumbai attacks of 2008, and a record of attacks that continues to this day. No one is better equipped to tell this story than my guests, and it's an honor to have him. Rajiv Malhotra is one of the most consequential Hindu intellectuals of our time. and a coiner of phrases which I love. A physicist by training and a pioneer in the computing industry, he built technology businesses across 20 countries and walked away from it all at the age of 44 to found the Infinity Foundation in Princeton, which has funded more than 400 grants for the serious study of Indian civilization at Harvard, Columbia, and beyond. But then he did something rarer still. He entered the arena himself, and his books have changed the argument. Breaking India, Being Different, The Battle for Sanskrit, Snakes in the Ganga. Is that Snakes in the Ganga or Ganja? Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Ganga. You said it right.
Richard Landes: Okay. Snakes in the Ganga. And the concepts he coined are now the vocabulary of an entire intellectual movement. The breaking India forces, digestion. History centrism, the intellectual kshatriya, i.e., the warrior scholar. I want to hear more about that. His audience numbers in the millions. For 30 years, he's been doing for Hindu civilization exactly what this month is trying to do for all infidels, naming the threat precisely, documenting it carefully, and refusing to be intimidated out of the conversation. And I'm proud to say that we're now working together. His team and ours are building something unprecedented, a living sourced, interactive map of jihad against Hindus from the century, from the seventh century to the last week, including more than three hundred documented episodes since two thousand and one alone. You will hear about it today. Rajiv Mohatra Ma Rajiv Mahotra Welcome to Infidel Awareness, my friend.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Richard, thank you very much. Namaste to all my viewers, all my followers, everybody else, particularly the Jewish, Christian and Western viewers watching this, I'm so happy that you put this together because I must say that Hindus in this geopolitical Kurukshetra, which means battlefield, are feeling left out because the Westerners feel that this is a problem Islam has with the West. and I've seen many of your guests in fact talk about the issues of Islam in the in their opposition of the to the West. Actually one of the things I would like to do is to show that Islam has a problem with everybody. It's not just with the West. And these non Muslims, which means about six billion out of the eight eight billion human beings, need to come together on this, need to understand each other, need to have conversation, dialogue. Because Hindus feel that, you know We've been fighting this longer continuously for since seven hundred and eleven, you know, of the common era, soon after the Prophet died, this happened and it's it's continuing to happen. So we we feel alone and in f in some ways we feel that the Westerners not only don't understand us, they they actually take sides with the other with the Muslims or with the leftists who are in aligned with the Muslims. And we feel that we have a common cause, common purpose. So When I saw when I was approached by you to do this, I was very happy. I think we we need to have a kind of infidels of the world unite, under
Richard Landes: Ha ha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: s understand understand each other. So I I
Richard Landes: I got you.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: I I also coined this infidel phobia to kind of counter this Islamophobia
Richard Landes: Mm.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: thing and we'll talk more about it. So whenever they say
Richard Landes: All right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: I is the the whenever they complain about Islamophobia, I I in a resolution in some Senate resolution My senators did. I said I'll support it if you say and infidel phobia because both should be protected. And you know, that that bill was dropped because I insisted that I by by saying that you should also include the the prejudice in the reverse direction, they dropped the bill. So th
Richard Landes: interesting, interesting. Right, right, right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so there are there are ways we can come together and do all this. I'm delighted to be here.
Richard Landes: Okay. Listen, so Rajiv, since most people in the West really have no idea what happened to Hindus in their encounter, shall we say, with the Islamic presence in on the subcontinent, can you tell us some briefly go over the history from the origins in the eighth century to now?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes, this is this is very important. So I will I we have done a huge archive, the my foundation, the Infinity Foundation, and I'm gonna refer to a few notes here for which I to summarize this because I wanna get the important points across. You know, about thirty years ago, my foundation started a project to go to send scholars around the world and go to archives and museums where the Muslims themselves documented the glorified and documented their invasions and conquests and atrocities against Hindus and Buddhist infidels. And these we we have people who went to these museums in Europe, all over Europe. Some of them are in Turkey. there are there are there are archives in the Arab world. So it's not like this is a secret that you know we've uncovered. Th this c sort of information has been around for a very long time. And the British in the eighteen hundreds also started curating all this. They started curating all this and there were multiple volumes published during the British era, British rule over India, talking about the Islamic all the stuff that the Islamic people when they invaded India, their scribes their their scribes that accompanied the invaders, what they wrote in their own language. And this was written to claim glory that because smashing Temples, destroying temples, using that to burning them down and using all the material and the land to build mosques is considered a sign of merit, for in their religion, and taking slaves is considered merit. t you know, the the atrocities committed, killing people, all that was considered merit. And so to claim the merit, the invaders would bring bring you know, historians and scribes and you know the the equivalent of Journalists, media people nowadays are embedded in the military. You can you you militaries
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: embed journalists to bring their side of the story. So these were embedded journalists of that era. And
Richard Landes: Ha ha ha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: they they they wrote they wrote these things so to be sent back for glory. And so I'm referring to this. I'm refer these are these are all documented. We we have translated these. We've sometimes got the original in the in Turkish or Persian or Arabic or something along with the English equivalent and we are making a virtual museum of of all this stuff. So this is this is something that Infinity Foundation has done. And you know, I just want to clarify one thing. What I'm gonna read is horrible stuff. That does not mean that every Muslim today is a bad person. It doesn't mean that. I mean it it does mean they have to come to terms with their heritage, their history. And I as a Hindu, I mean there are there are bad people in all faiths. I have no problems if someone tells me that people of my faith in the past did bad things. I'd say they should not have done those things. These are bad things. We should learn and move on. So we do keep r self correcting and reforming. And Muslims need to do that. They need to come to terms with this. There's i I know many good Muslims, many f friends of mine are Muslims and they're wonderful people, but they refuse to come or they're reluctant to come to terms with their own history. And I think this is the issue. This is why we the infidels have to bring this out in a way that is undeniable. And all everything that I do and my team does has to be backed by references to original sources. And so so w I'm I I will explain in a summary, the the eighth century started early in the century started with with the somebody who was an Arab, Muhammad bin Qasi and he he's the first he's the guy who invaded Sindh. Sindh was now in Pakistan. It was a very thriving place in in in India at the time. he invaded Sindh and he he managed to after several battles you know he killed the king, took his head and sent it to the caliph in Damascus as a trophy. Now Caliph, for those who don't know, is the Islamic world ruler. The one one person who rules the whole world under under Sharia and in the name of Islam is the caliph. And for most of Islam's history they've had a caliph. the the la latest caliphate was the Ottoman Empire, which which you know was l broken and dissolved more than a hundred about a hundred years ago. So
Richard Landes: Nineteen twenty four.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right. a hundred years yeah, just about a century. And
Richard Landes: Yeah, literally. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so they they have been trying to build a caliphate and that's why the footprint of the caliphate in Gaza and in Kashmir and wherever they can start something, these are not isolated incident incidents. These are not like, you know, let's look at the local issues. This is all part of a caliphate and the caliphate is a project that's been going on for a very long time. So the caliphate of Damascus was the one sponsoring these things at the time. So Muhammad bin Qasim when he defeats the infidel king, he sends his head as a trophy to get merit. And they all get merit out of this. They sort of like internal pr promotion with within the internal system. Some kind
Richard Landes: Right, right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: of merit that you know you become an important person because you've done all these things. So the the the s the broad brush is that there were five major waves of invaders over a thousand years. there was bin Qasim who was an Arab. Then the the next one was Muhammad of Ghazni the town of Ghazni is named after him. he was a Turk. So you see there are not just one group of people. There are Persians involved. Then there's Muhammad of Ghori who was an Afghani. Then there is Timur. Timur was a Mongolian Turk of that descent. And then and then finally there was the Mughals who were Turkish. Now the interesting thing is that the pattern is very similar. They come to in the name of you know Islam to attack and kill and you know plunder infidels, which is allowed. they bring in thousands of people on horseback and keep invading and run away. They're d they are defeated and they run away and then they come back again. Then they're defeated and they run away, they come back again. So imagine they the Islam expanded very quickly in all directions, including the taking over takeover of of Iran. That happened Persia very happened very quickly. But from there onwards, that from that point onwards, the taking over of what is now called Afghanistan and then Pakistan and reaching India. Took them seven hundred years. So it's a it's a slow, ongoing, just go keep at it, keep at
Richard Landes: Constant.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it. Constant. look for vulnerabilities, look for weaknesses, look for spies, buy out somebody. A lot of Hindus betrayed, a lot of Hindus were traitors who go sold out. There is a constant story in our our history of our own people betraying us, our own people switching because something was better, more rewarding on the other side. And the Muslims knew how to divide up the Hindus, you know. And so yes, yeah, we we
Richard Landes: We see that today.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: absolutely we see that today, and we should we should discuss that. This is a vulnerability we have. So, in this in this broad brush, you know, kind of broad sweep conquest of India, the pattern is it taking killing hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, when they kill when they take over a place. They are not they have no mercy, and they're just going to slaughter everybody. And they're going to make take spears and put heads on top, head spear, you know, towers of heads and put them on the sides for parading, literally tens of thousands of such heads, and and take women's slaves, children's slaves, sell them in the slave market. Now it's very interesting. the name Hindukush. The name Hindu Kush, which is in Afghanistan, Pakistan, mountainous area, it means literally the plunder of Hindus. They they they even named the place where they plundered so many people, the Hindu Kush. So that is on the map of most you know, you look at Google Maps, they'll say Hindu Kush. I mean somebody ought to tell them. Yeah,
Richard Landes: Without knowing. Without knowing.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: yeah, I mean they're just doing this. So th th the
Richard Landes: It's like it's sort of like the Americans calling Indian territory you know, the Cheyenne Slaughter.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right. I mean it i i this is so amazing. I mean this I mean this is like you know if some Holocaust happened somewhere and you don't memorialise it and sort of put a make a trophy out of it to celebrate kind of thing, you you put them to shame. I mean the whole that's the whole idea. So n you know, one of the interesting things I came across in my research was the Soviet Union took the archives of all the Central Asian republics, all these Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkistan, Turkmenistan, you know, Tajikistan. These Central Asian countries were b before that they were Hindu, Buddhist, different other kinds of faiths until the Muslims took over. So there's a lot of Hindu Musli Hindu and Buddhist material there in the in their are in their archaeology, you will find. And when the when they w when they would come to India in the main heartland Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and take slaves. The slave markets were in the Middle East and in the Central Asia. There were a lot of slave markets, and those these people would be tied up and they had to walk hundreds of miles, thousands of miles, more than half of them would die. I mean this is worse than the slave trade where Africans were brought to America by sea much later. Many of them died this is we all know that story. But this kind of a slave trade from India has not been properly documented. And the Muslims like to claim that there is no slavery. But the point is that there there is Muslim slavery in Africa and there certainly was Muslim slavery in South Asia.
Richard Landes: Wait, wait, Muslims claim that they don't have a tradition of slavery?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Muslims like to say that one of the one of you see, foreign invaders like to justify what they did by saying that they were civilizing the natives. The natives were bad people and they were they had all these bad issue bad problems and they came to civilize them. And of course, as taking loot and war you know, prisoners and all that was part of the game, but ultimately they were bringing civilization. When I talk to my Muslim friends who are liberals and they want to justify what happened and they don't want to d they want to deny the atrocities, when you face when you show them proof that they cannot deny, then they often start saying that, you know, but the Hindus had problems, we therefore we had to do this and that to fix it. So
Richard Landes: Ha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it's almost almost like they kinda this is tough love and they we have to they have to do all this for our own good.
Richard Landes: Right. That doesn't sound like a liberal. That sounds like an apologist.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: But you know, you see the you see the problem from a Pakistani's point of view, because the Pakistani has DNA which is Indian and therefore his ancestors were Hindus. And so
Richard Landes: Uh-huh.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: how is he to justify being a Muslim taking the taking the faith of a Middle Easter or Turkish invader who invade who conquered and made his ancestors into slaves and forced them to convert and raise the kids in a madrasa to become Muslim? So that is the story he doesn't want to he wants to deny. Because that's not the story you tell your kids, hey, you know what? We were a bunch of slaves. Our our ancestors were killed and we were raised in a madrasa and we had no choice, but they were actually we were Hindus. This is a shameful thing for them to admit. So they have to come up with a story. So one
Richard Landes: Wow.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: of the st one of some of them say we are from the Middle East. We are Arabs. We are Arabs. But Arabs don't consider them to be Arabs. If when they go for the Hajj they're treated as second class, third class Muslims. They have their own hierarchy of who's more Muslim than who's less Muslim stature. So the Pakistanis are sort of down the higher in the totem pole. And so they but it's a good story they can talk to each other like that, but the Arabs don't believe that. The Turks don't consider Pakistanis to be one of them. Persians don't either. So the second p second option for them is to say, Okay, we we we were we we are sort of the upgraded people. You know, they came and they upgraded the local people that we became Muslims because i
Richard Landes: Ha ha ha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it's a sign of being proud. It's a p you you have to you have to hold your self-esteem somehow. Every human being and every community wants to have self-esteem. So they need they they cannot say that we are the sons and daughters of the atrocious people who killed our own ancestors and we are very because then the then the Hindus will say, then the Hindus say, well you're like us. Why are you killing us? When you're destroying us, killing us You know, we are your ancestors. So actually this is the problem of discussions between Hindus and Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. Hindus ca
Richard Landes: Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Hindus constantly saying your ancestors were Hindus and
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Muslims having to deny it because otherwise they don't have an risk argument. I mean
Richard Landes: Right. Well, it's like the Assyrian Christian saying to the Muslims, Sure, your ancestors were Christians. so but
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So so so so let me yeah, so in terms of the in terms of the some of the things some of the let me just give a few statistics, you know. Some of the things are some of the facts are that when this Mohammed bin Qasim killed the si local the leader and sent his head to Damascus, his queen and the women opted to suicide or opted for Johar. Johar is a tradition of killing yourself. by fire, jumping into the fire, in
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: order not to be taken slave and and having to have a horrible life. So a lot of Hindu women would do that. the Rajputs did that, a lot of Hindu women did that, and some of the very famous peop women were those who did that. And the other fact is that one fifth of the some of the some of the soldiers were some of the leaders who were the fighters, Islamic fighters, were slaves. They were slave armies. So the the
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: slave armies would be told that you go and you go and invade infidels and you have to give a certain you can keep a certain f percentage, some fraction of it belongs to you, the rest of it belongs to the sponsor. It's almost like a venture capitalist, you know. You go you it's a venture conquest. You know,
Richard Landes: Venture conquest.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: there's a venture capitalist who's sort of funding the whole thing and bringing sold slaves together and saying, Okay, whatever you find, you know, the women, slaves, the the money you make are looting temples This fraction is yours, this fraction is mine. So these kind of deals are well documented. These are deals that
Richard Landes: Yeah, I th I think Daniel Pipes wrote his first book on slave warriors.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: And India is a story of slave warriors coming. The the people who conquered, the leaders, the commanders of these conquer conquer conquering armies were not like the king of some place. They it was not like the king of some Muslim place himself coming in
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: person. They would send some folks on a venture venture capital deal kind of of some sort. And some of these people were some of these entrepreneurs, conquest kind of entrepreneurs, were were saves. and and and and they're not the best cla quality people human beings around. They were the ones who knew how to fight and beat and kill and all that, and they were the selected
Richard Landes: And it and they knew how to be treated like slaves, so they knew how to treat others like slaves. All right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: They they have absolutely so th they they were very approaching that. So then then this the the the the the the and you know another another chapter after Sindh is is what is now Afghanistan. So you know Kandahar, Kandahar is a major town in Afghanistan. We all know because of the US war there, Kandahar, big big
Richard Landes: Right. Movies.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: movies and a big US base, one of the biggest bases and all that. So Kandahar In the Indian epic Mahabharat, which is one of the sacred stories of the pa very old story, there is it is Gandhar. It is with a G before it becomes called Kandahar. It's Gandhar,
Richard Landes: Okay.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and there's a famous queen who wears who blocks her eyes, the queen of Gandhar is a very fame important character in that in the Mahabharata. So Gandhar as a kingdom is known in India for a very long time. It was the Hindu kingdom, very large Hindu kingdom, what now is called Afghanistan, and that place was its capital. And it has a Buddhist it there were Hindu rulers, there were Buddhist rulers. And in fact, you know, there were these Bamiyan Buddhas that were destroyed by the Taliban, the very tall ones, huge
Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: ones, hundreds of feet tall, they are in that region. So this was this was you know, when Muslims need to be told when they they're in denial right now about the history of what their fa people have done. Th this was Hindu land. There are there are archaeological sites. I will have to tell you this by this is my personal story too. The Malhatras, which is my family name, come from what is now in the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan, that region.
Richard Landes: Mm.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: And there are there are ruins there. They they that they were protectors of certain places in in that area for a very, very long time back. And there was a sun temple, and in the sun temple they were They were the protectors of the Sun Temple. So the Hindus have been there for a very long time. And in my house I have a small I have a Buddha about this big in my living room, which is from the Bamiyan Buddhas. And I bought
Richard Landes: huh. Wow.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it I bought it at a Satabi's auction
Richard Landes: Wow.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: about twenty five, thirty years ago. Because as you know the the British took a lot of that old stu stuff from India into British homes and so when w These things would then get sold in England and they would be part of art collectors. And so
Richard Landes: Right. Sure.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: in recent times, when the kids inherit this from their parents who got it from their parents, they
Richard Landes: They sell it.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: they just sell it because they'd rather buy a nice car and a house and a private jet and they don't need all this stuff. So
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so then a guy like me has to pay a lot of money to buy back my own heritage. but at least I did that. So I have one of the
Richard Landes: At le at least you can.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Atli at I I I'm I'm fortunate I I have a piece of that a as a kind of you know so
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: this comes from this Bahamian Buddha is in the region not far from Kandahar and
Richard Landes: Right? Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: the region where my family originated, belong trying back. So I have a personal stake
Richard Landes: Gotcha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: in understanding all this history. Now the Muhammad of Ghazni, who was the second one, second intruder, he he came with the he's the one who killed so many people that they coined the term Hindu Kush for that. And he invaded India seventeen times. And he would come and until the Mughals came and settled down, the strategy
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: was invade, capture, loot, money, and run back to their country because they they were they just came to make money. That was the ventured capital plunder. It
Richard Landes: Plunder plunder.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: was just just plunder and go back. So he made seventeen of these and he captured Somnath, which is one of the great Hindu temples of all time, you know, massive. And they started when they would capture a place, they started jizya tax, which is only the dhimis are supposed to. It's a jizya tax is a tax for people of the book. Okay. So they decided they figured that the the wealth of India is so huge and Indians love to go and Hindus love to go and give their money to the temple. So a good place to collect money is to let them function And then come every so often and collect all the money and run away. So they w so so the temple became a taxation system b where the Hindus would kind of come and give their money and then in exchange they would be allowed to practice their faith and in in some some inferior level and and not be killed or taken slaves, and this was a f way to keep extorting money out of them. And then finally
Richard Landes: Gotcha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: they destroyed the temple also. So so these things have happened over a long time.
Richard Landes: What are the estimates on the number of people that were killed by this raider?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So e each one of these five killed in the millions, and you know, you see estimates like twenty million over over this whole period of of Hindus being killed. And during the partition of in nineteen forty seven, another three million. So, you know, Hindus have Hindus
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: have lost a large number of people, and when you look in proportion to the population at that time, that twenty million would be equivalent to a hundred, two hundred million people today in terms of relative size of total. population.
Richard Landes: Okay. Tell it tell us about forty seven, because you know, people don't understand how a partition can lead to the death of millions of people and the displacement of tens of millions of people.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes. I will tell them tell you in a moment, w including my own story, my father's how they how they
Richard Landes: Okay.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: were trapped. But first I must say the I the Sikhs, Sikhs who wear turbans, Sikhs the religion of Sikhs
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: started as Hindus in Punjab, Punjab is a state I'm from, Punjab
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: who wanted to defend Hindus against the Muslims. They started as the Hindu kshatrias which means warriors. Who organized themselves into a special group of fighting Hindus. Hindus would be the fighters because many Hindus were pacifists, they didn't want to fight. So
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so they they started a whole religion, organized religion, whose purpose was to defend Hindus. And they were the fiercest among the fiercest fighters against the Muslim invaders. And the Muslims committed so many atrocities. Their gurus were persecuted. They had a total of ten gurus. They were persecuted by the Muslims for refusing to convert. And and this l lineage of ten Sikh Gurus is a great part of Hindu history because they were there to protect Hindus. So Hindus respect them and honor them. And and
Richard Landes: Gotcha. Gotcha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: the last Guru, the f tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh, started a movement called the Khalsa. Khalsa movement, the Khalsa are the warriors to protect Hindus against Muslims. That is how what the Khalsa movement was. Now the Sikh movement has gone another direction recently, and that's a separate story. They the Sikhs have become anti Hindus, or at least some of them you know, overseas. The ones in India are really nice. India Sikhs are not like that at all. So this is a very recent phenomenon, being alienated from their country and and now from their land of origin they they're they've created a kind of an anti Hindu movement and joined for joined ranks with Muslims. The Sikh
Richard Landes: Yeah.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: These Khalistani people have joined ranks with Muslims to fight against Hindus. But actually, the origin of Sikhs is that a Hindu people, they're all Hindus
Richard Landes: Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: who wanted to protect the Hindus against the Muslims.
Richard Landes: Shatrias. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: They were the physical kshatriyas, and I call myself an intellectual kshatriya, which is kind of like yeah, we'll
Richard Landes: Right, right. I wanna get to that.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: get to that. So so now now let's come to your question about
Richard Landes: forty seven.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: 47. So You see when the British left, the Gandhi and the the i Hindu side wanted a unified country, with everybody in it. But the Muslim leaders is Muhammad Jinnah, Jinnah was the Muslim leader, he he wanted separate for Muslims and argued that Muslims would not be tr respected and treated and safe in a Hindu majority. basic basically he was following the the caliphate project that Muslims should not be ruled by non-Muslims. I mean that's the problem in Gaza and Palestine and everywhere. Muslims cannot a Muslim is not allowed to be bow to a non-Muslim superior and a leader. He has to if he's forced to, he has to do it temporarily, but figure out a way to undermine, to subterfuge, to to do some kind of hijacking and get rid of that leader and take over. So is the Muslims felt that the The independence of India was an opportunity to claim a separate Muslim state. And when this was denied, but the British didn't bonded it, didn't want it, they kept vacillating, then they then they announced r riots and and the these these riots started and Hindus reciprocated, so the Hindu Muslim riots started, and so the British in haste they declared a partition. Now, when they declared the partition. What is now Bangladesh was part of Pakistan. It was called East Pakistan. And what is now Pakistan was called West Pakistan. These two were Pakistan, two and two ends of India. And it's very interesting the the the criteria was that they'll go district by district. There are hundreds of districts all over in India. They'll go district by district and the district with a Muslim majority will go become part of Pakistan. And the districts with a Hindu majority will become part of India. And and that was one criteria. And another criteria was that every state had its own traditional ruler from whom the British had taken over, and each ruler will decide whether he wants to go to this side or whether he wants to go to that side.
Richard Landes: It sounds like Europe and the Protestant Reformation.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right, right. So so the the my pair my dad was in Lahore, which is Pakistan now. But at that time nobody could ever imagine that Lahore will be Pakistan. I mean it's like it's like if somebody said, you know, New York has become part of China or something. I it's so bizarre. Absolutely bizarre.
Richard Landes: Or Michigan or Michigan has become part of the caliphate.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: but become part of the caliph. I mean this is so amazing. So my dad, his family were bankers. They were they were they were wealthy. They had mansions, they had a lot of resources, and so they were a target. And so they when it was when it was suddenly dis it was in the news that there will be a partition, it's any day. The British could have done it with advanced notice. They could have said, We've agreed to this boundary, but it takes a in a year it'll take effect.
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: We keep running the country and people have time to move here, there, wherever they want to move, they can move their property and all that. And we facilitate
Richard Landes: Right. Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it. They could have had a transfer of population, transfer of assets in an organized way, but they didn't. When they were wanted to go, they just set the hell out. And so there was chaos.
Richard Landes: They they did the same thing in Palestine.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes. And it was like when when they didn't need when it served their purpose it didn't serve their purpose anymore, they just left quickly. So you see the the My dad's family woke up one morning and the headlines are that the partition has happened la midnight. It was no prior announcement. Yeah.
Richard Landes: I freedom at midnight, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: It has happened and here is the map. And they read the map, they can't believe it that hey, we are on the wrong side. We we they but nobody told nobody thought they didn't think that, hey, we better get out of the horror because they didn't think it was necessary.
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So when they were then then the news was that Gandhi made confusion. by saying that this temp this is temporary, I don't accept the partition, let the British leave, we'll reunite. I mean, that gave hopes that, you know, we don't have to run. We we just stay where we are, we stay put and we'll
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: be okay. So that meant that my my parents sort of out of wishful thinking, they had too much to lose to leave, so they wanted to just sort of stay there. So then later as the days went by, weeks went by, there were riots, news here and there, that there is a riot here and a riot there. Many of their Muslim employees, security guards, staff turned against them gradually. Because now now it was time to get rid of these infidels, take over their land, their property, their
Richard Landes: Mm.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: money and all of that. So there are so many stories I can get into one day which my family told me all the time, you know, they're because and my dad was very lucky. He was a young man and he was lucky, he and a few others managed to escape a come come out alive. But many others died. And my my eldest we are two brothers, my b brother and myself, but there was a third one, he was the eldest, and he died. So there are there are there are there are family, you know, we we lost as a family. We we so when people say are you islam Islamophobic, I say, Listen, you're a good Muslim, you're a friend of mine, but I have fear of Islam. I mean I have fear of Islam for good reason. If if somebody got raped they would be raped for me.
Richard Landes: Right. I'm not I'm not Muslim phobic, I'm Islamophobic.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yeah, yeah, because this is this is done in the name of Islam. They were they they went after my family only because they were infidels, what we they call kafirs. Muslims call them kafirs, call us kafirs. So I am a kafir, I'm an infidel. I mean I can't can't deny that. And and this whole business of kafir their their their hatred for kafirs is responsible for, you know, the history of my family.
Richard Landes: Yeah.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so that's That's kind of what happened. Now over three million people were killed in during this partition. And then this thing didn't didn't end right there because you know when you look at the history of Kashmir. Kashmir was one of those disputes because the Maharaja of Kashmir, the ruler of Kashmir, opted to go with India. And that was those were the rules. That's the rules. Okay,
Richard Landes: Uh-huh.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: those are the rules, and he was a Hindu. he opted to go for into India. Kashmir was always a very sacred land for the Hindus. It's a Shavite, Shiva, the land of Shib Lord Shiva. And and all the all the lot of history, a lot of our you know epics are based in Kashmir. Kashmir Shaivism is a very important branch of Hinduism. So the Kashmiris are very proud of being Hindus for good reason. There's so much they've contributed. But in the in the later last two, three, three, four hundred years. is when lot of is Muslims infiltrated and got in into Kashmir. But the Maharaja was a Hindu. And so he opted for India. And and then the Pakistanis attacked in order to capture and they to got some part of it and then a ceasefire was declared by the UN so there's part of Kashmir controlled by them and part of Kashmir under India. So that has remained and that remained a kind of a de facto ceasefire line line of control or something they call it. but then a couple of decades into party into independence, the the Muslims, the clergy, you know, terrorists, these kind of people got together and organized a day when Kashmiri Hindus were given an ultimatum that in forty eight hours, seventy two hours, all of you leave or Convert or you'll be killed.
Richard Landes: Or die.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yeah. Any w any of you left who is still a Hindu after this deadline will be c slaughtered. So you know that
Richard Landes: So this is
RAJIV MALHOTRA: one.
Richard Landes: this is the classic choice that supremacist Muslims give to Kafir. You either convert, you submit, or you die.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. But you know, one has to one has to also acknowledge that there is something called Al Takiyah. Al Takiyah is a Muslim concept which is talked about a lot in the mosques. Al Takiya says when you are weak and a minority, don't rock the boat. Be a good citizen, be a member of society, have be law abiding, get a good job, you know. Be patriotic and you know, all of that stuff. be culturally not all too alienated. But when you have enough people, enough of your kind, then you should start making demands like you want halal food, you
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: want a face mask, you want a room for prayer, these are all peaceful and
Richard Landes: And you and you don't want infidels eating in front of you during Ramadan and and you
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right. Right.
Richard Landes: don't want piglet cups taken to the office and right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right. So so you see the the thing is that they start making some demands and then the liberals tend to say, Yeah yeah, we should do that, they're nice people after all. So they're accommodated, we keep doing that. And and so this becomes a little more aggressive and a little more aggressive, and then they start with the DEI in the corporate America and the DEI is very big in India also. A lot of Muslims have gone
Richard Landes: really?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it has they've gone left the leftists Captured the HR departments to bring their own kind of people, more employees in and more board members and policies through the HR department. And the leftists brought in a lot of Muslims. In in the United States, you will find the DEI is controlled by the left and the Islam Axis. And so you cannot say anything that you'll be accused of Islamophobia, you know, that whole thing. So once you have infiltrated civic society. You have enough mayors, you have people in law enforcement, you have, you know, in these homeland security people at the airports who are scanning the
Richard Landes: Entreism.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: you get your you get your people, young people. Hindus are wanting their kids to become lawyers, doctors, scientists,
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: tech engineers. You know, they want them to become get into these kind of fields. Very similar to a
Richard Landes: Professions.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: lot of the professions that the the Jews get into. But the Muslims are telling their p kids to go into you know law enforcement, get into homeland security, become a security guard somewhere, you know, get into politics, get into
Richard Landes: Driving taxis.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: get driving taxis, get into media. So they are into infiltration of civic society in a and the more democracy the bet easier it is to do that. And only much later is the is there a jihad against their own society.
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: And and the reason they the reason when the time comes to under the Al-Takya, when the time comes to openly declare a jihad, you give
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: people a peaceful option. You give you you don't go slaughtering right away. You just give them a peaceful option and say, you know, we love you and we we you this is the right religion, otherwise you're on the wrong side and you have to join us. So
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: there's all kind of remi there's a whole spectrum of jihad from very nice, soft, loving, hugging
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: to all the way to brutality. The point is that they the game has been perfected for a very long time. It's the oldest marketing expansion kind of pr program in history. It has been
Richard Landes: You know
RAJIV MALHOTRA: the most successful ever. So
Richard Landes: Right. It we it was outlined by Herbert Dean in Children of Dune, science fiction writer. And he has one of the characters say, When we are weak, we will demand freedom from you because that is according to your principles, and when we are strong, we will take freedom from you because that is according to our principles. Yeah.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Wow. Yeah, this is exactly what's happened. You know, so this is
Richard Landes: Nailed it. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: so this is this is the story that must be told.
Richard Landes: All right, listen, let's I I wanna go to some of your terms. I wanna know about history centrism and I also wanna know about the the scholar warriors.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Okay. The k the intellectual kshatriyas. No, history centrism is a very important concept where it's a it's a deep, deep philosophy. the the the Hindu cosmology is not about God as an outsider who communicates occasionally through a prophet and
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: therefore there and the and there are no more prophets, that that communication has been stopped. He for whatever reason says, I don't want to talk to you guys anymore. You better you better you're on your own and you better
Richard Landes: You're you're on your own
RAJIV MALHOTRA: you better go to the historical record of what the prophet said. And if you didn't get it, you didn't get it, but you have to do that. So that means that we have we are dependent on some communication from God, which happened a long time ago, before there was modern methods of recording and all that. So we don't even know what he said. There are many interpretations, many views. It it's come down orally for a long time and and so it's been filtered by a lot of people. But we have to go to the institutions and That claim to be the re keep record keepers of this, and these institutions will tell us what are God's instructions. And and this this kind of a dependency on history on a unique historical event is what I call history centrism. And and
Richard Landes: I see.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: it was a very innovative idea at that time because you know, I discovered, I mean, we are not history centric. Why we are not history centric is because God God is not just outside. the world outside the cosmos, but God also permeates, he's imminent and transcendent. He's his transcendent God as in the Judai Jewish tradition, Christian tradition, and Allah in Islam are transcendent gods. But
Richard Landes: Okay.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: in Christianity, God also becomes imminent as Jesus Christ. So God is in Christianity is transcendent and imminent, but the instances of immanence are just one. Because he
Richard Landes: I see.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: one son, no daughter, and that's it. So the battery is closed. So
Richard Landes: But Hinduism is immanence all the time.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Imminence, imminence infinite because God keeps c coming as often as he wants to, as often as he needs to, and there's any number of such expressions of God, and God never said this I'll I'll s I'll leave you guys, I won't come back again. God says I'll come back as often as I as is required. So the number of instances and claims in different parts of the world where somebody says that divine visited here and God can be f in coming in female form, God can be coming in male form. So there is no dependency and burden and bondage to a particular account of history. You have your account and I have my account. I respect your account. God may have come in your village and he's do all of those things are fine. I don't know about it, but I have no reason to doubt it. So I respect you. And I want you to respect mine. So that's kind of the the decentralized ecosystem of Hinduism. Many, many version, many forms of God One God, it's not poly it's not in the sense that God there are many gods, it's not that. That is a mischaracterization. That is what
Richard Landes: One God in many avatars.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: one God, many representations, many forms, many histories. Many histories. The God keeps appearing, many histories. So so this idea of this is like you know, there is one territory and there are many maps of it. Okay, so so no map is complete. If you have if you start
Richard Landes: Sounds very postmodern.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: It's a very postmodern. There are many, many maps of you can make any number of maps of Manhattan and each of them has a place, it has serves a purpose. Each of them is true in its own way. But all the maps put together don't exhaust whatever knowledge there is about Manhattan. You could keep making any number of maps and it'll never exhaust. So no map exhausts the territory that is being represented. So similarly, there for for the supreme being being so large, complex, there's any number of representations. So, like if you take an if you take an institution like United States of America, you could say the national anthem is a representation, you could say the constitution is a representation of America, you could say the b the eagle and the the seal of the United States, the the US Capitol, the flag. I mean, all these are different representations of America. But none of them ex all of them put together don't exhaust America itself. America itself is beyond that. So so there is the There is the entity itself transcendent and then there is in innumerable representations that are imminent. And through these imminent representations we have access to the transcendent. It's like you could access the America through its flag or through the local embassy or through some some entity. They're all r leading to they're all leading to the same same entity through many offices. Many offices and many so so Hinduism does not have history centrism in that sense. And I think this is a very important discovery of mine. Well, the the fact has been there for a long time, but to be able to put it together and articulate it as was a very provocative contribution of mine in the American Academy of Religion, because there they were teaching Hinduism in a very wrong way. They still are, but I would come and give these kind of things and they didn't have an argument against it because they cannot. And and and yet they did not, it would dismantle all their research. all their depiction of Hinduism. So that's one of my one of many such ideas.
Richard Landes: But what what are the consequences of history centrism?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So history centrism by itself is not a problem when you look at the Jews who are history centric because the Jews do not have a mandate to start to create a caliphate and run the whole world. They don't have an expansionist mandate. Jews are
Richard Landes: Actually actually Jews have borders. It they're the only monotheism with borders.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So Jews are actually chosen by God to do certain work. They've given some responsibility. So people think that Jews are arrogant saying we are chosen people. Actually they've been chosen to do some work. I mean, it's like somebody saying, you know, your work is my my
Richard Landes: Tough work. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: my wife, my wife saying you do the dishes, so I'm I I'm the guy who's chosen to do
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: the dishes. So go Jews were delegated some work that God gave them to do. But God didn't say that you franchise a network all over the world and put your departments and branches and they'll do the work instead of you. God did not ask you to delegate to other people. He asked you to do it yourself. You have to do it yourself. Now the the
Richard Landes: So it's a non im a non imperialist monotheism.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: It's non non-transferable. It's like a a legal contract that cannot be assigned. It's non-assignable. You cannot assign this contract. Whereas
Richard Landes: Let's see. I mean okay.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: whereas the in i my understanding and talking to Muslim friends is the the instructions given were not just to the to the Arabs saying you do these things, these are do's adults for you. the instructions given were go and go to the whole world and force it on them. so That business is when you combine the expansionist requirement and the history centrism together, they are a dangerous cocktail. It becomes very, very because now there is only one truth which they have. I cannot claim that God also came here and gave us different instructions. You know what? Your God came to the Mecca and to to told Bahamad certain things through the archangel Gabriel, and I have no problem with it, but God came here. And told me something else through my ancestors. I I can say all that. And I can say I respect you if you respect me, but they cannot reciprocate. They cannot they they can tolerate me. There's a difference between tolerance and mutual respect. There's another term of mine. That when they offer tolerance, I say, No, no, no. You wouldn't want to sit at a dinner table, but your wife says I tolerate you to sit next to me. I mean you wouldn't want
Richard Landes: Ha
RAJIV MALHOTRA: you would you wouldn't want your colleague in the office to say, you know, you're
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: off your desk, I tolerate you, you can sit there. I mean, y come on, what's wrong with me? Why why you have to tolerate me? Why can't you respect me? I mean, so now so I started I started this business of mutual respect rather than tolerance in the 1990s and I'm glad. Lord it has it has gone all over. Now so many UN people, American politicians, foreign politicians, they use the term mutual respect. Even the church starts using the term mutual respect. But when you respect me, Please recognize you're respecting my idea of history, not yours. You are respecting my what God told me to do, not what God told you to do to be imposed on me. It is it is sort of like a pluralistic view that God is God is very communicative and gives and inspires many people, visits here, expresses himself in many ways, and he has done so for all throughout history, he's done this for many traditions. So the Jews actually. Have very little problem. I don't I haven't come across Jews who really have a problem with this idea because they're they're they just want to be left alone to be Jews. And they have no problem if you are whoever you are. I have
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: never had a problem telling a Jew, you know, you should definitely have your rituals, all your all your all your ideas and all that are great. I would love to learn and participate as a friend. And I have my own and you should respect mine. Jews have no problem with it, right? So the problems. with this I history centrism and exclusivity exclusivity have been with
Richard Landes: I see it.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Christianity and Islamity and Islam, but in the case of Christianity they had reformation. And in the case of Islam they haven't. So I think
Richard Landes: And in some senses, it's that reformation that led to democracy when they right. Democracy
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right. That is correct. Or
Richard Landes: actually, the American Constitution is the first time in the history of Christianity that the winners believed in freedom for everybody.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes. So so this is so this is why you know, history centrism affects all the three Abrahamic religions, but the Jews are not expansionist. Christians and Muslims were expansionists, but then Christians had their reformation, which is an internal movement. It is not something that some outside guys came and conquered them. So I feel
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: that the future of Islam has to be an internal reformation. I mean this is not something you or I could do. We can we can we are infidels and we are complaining because we don't want to be killed and made slaves and you've done all these kind of things to us. Yeah, I don't know why. But
Richard Landes: I don't know why.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: I I would like to support Muslims, liberal Muslims, who want to do a reformation and we should help them out in any way we can. But it it's
Richard Landes: All right,
RAJIV MALHOTRA: not an easy job for them.
Richard Landes: right. So let's come back to that. Before we go there, I'd just like you to comment on something. I asked, I interviewed a a a Christian from the Middle East who in fact escaped Iran in nineteen eighty-nine. And one of the things she s she said was, you know, the West just doesn't know about this, and when they find out, they don't seem to care. And you know. The West doesn't know what's happened to the Hindus, what's happening to the Hindus. You know, we we get this dramatic story of what happened in Mumbai, but you know, we don't understand it as part of a fabric of existence. How do you explain the indifference of the West? Is there just too too egocentric?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Well, this is very no, this is very s I mean they started maybe started as some kind of racism, I don't know. maybe maybe they have a misconception of Hinduism as some kind of idolaters and very bad people, you know. Dis they deserve it and let them
Richard Landes: So they probably deserve it?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: let these let these horrible ugly kind of guys fight it out and there's Muslims and Hindus they fight it out and we all we care is they don't drop nuclear bombs on each other because then we'll get radiation. So we we don't want that to happen. But as long as they kind of behave themselves and contain it within some limits, it's okay. So I think most most westerners would rather not dive deep like you are diving deep to understand what exactly is gone with the Hindus, what's their history, what's are their stories. And they'd rather just kind of and I'm talking about right wing Christians, Christian Zionists who have a vested interest, they should be supporting Hindus because we have common cause. They should be and
Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and I'm finding so many especially in the recent times in this in this in the present establishment I'm finding so much Hindu phobia, anti-Hinduism, you know,
Richard Landes: Really.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: all kind of denigration of Hinduism coming from, I can believe that it comes from the left and Islam acts neck nexus alliance,
Richard Landes: The red green axis.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: red-green alliance, that is normal and natural and expected, they're
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: doing that. But to come from the that was there all the time, getting worse, and I wrote
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: for years about it. But what's new? Is the Christian right wanting to turn against the Hindus, has turned against the Hindus, at least some people have. And they're not even interested in listening to all this. They they they don't but you see, on the one hand they are afraid of Islam and they are they are really afraid that Islam is taking over. On the other hand, they don't realize that Hindus are a billion people who are actually f
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: fighting the same thing. We're fighting not Muslims, we're fighting only radical Islam, and as are you. You don't have a problem with every Muslim and nor do we. So we should have common cause. So one of the things I want out of our relationship is a platform to educate other Westerners. That's what one of the
Richard Landes: Yes. Okay, so let's say we begin to educate them. What kind of actual activity do you see coming out of this alliance? Because I'm in complete agreement with you and one billion Hindus is huge, but in fact there are another five billion plus non Muslims in the world who don't realize that they're considered infidels, who don't realize that in fact they share an enemy. So how how how would you what's your what's your suggestion for how we move forward?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So I think there's th there's a f there's several levels. One is intellectual, then there is institutional, then there's media, education. In all of these we have to come together. So intellectually
Richard Landes: Mm-hmm.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: we have to understand it is not Islam versus the West. It is Islam versus the rest. Yeah, it it is
Richard Landes: Yeah.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: not it is Islam Islam versus the rest. And yeah.
Richard Landes: That's a g that's a right. That's a great expression. Right. My father right. My my father used to teach a course called The West and the Rest. And now you've given it a whole new meaning. Right. It's Islam it's
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So now it's a
Richard Landes: supremacist Islam versus the rest, including Muslims
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right.
Richard Landes: who don't sign up for the supremacist version.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Right, right. So and and all the all the rest are is infidels, so that's really what it amounts to. And this is this is codified in their own doctrines to make the caliphate and the Sharia law and and that is the ultimate plan, whether whether you get there through violence or peaceful means or in between is a is another matter. That depends on c case by case. But the ultimate goal, that is the goal that you are st striving for. We have to un explain this to Hindus and Westerners need to come together and first understand between us. Now, Hindus have there are a lot of Indians in Africa and in Southeast Asia. And when I say Hindus, I'm including Buddhists also, because Buddhists have a com a common origin and they understand all these things. So we need to have an alliance between the
Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Okay. Sort of like Protestants and Catholics.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: right. So we we need to we need to have a we need to have a kind of coming together of Hindus, Buddhists, the the Dharma tradition, the four different faiths of Dharma traditions. We need to come together. with the Westerners who have common cause with us. This is a very big deal. And then we need to figure look at how they are expanding by inf institutional infiltration. What they have done in India is a precursor to what they are doing in UK and what they are doing done in UK. They perfected it, they're bringing it to the United States. So that kind of a thing is happening. They put their people in media who are very nice, you know, the Farid Zakaria type, very sweet, nice intellectual la liberal and they'll they'll argue against Muslims also and against this side and that side, like free thinkers and all that. But behind the scenes, once they have some good people like that, g good for them people like that, good ambassadors, they start hiring many Muslims into the organization. So those other guys do
Richard Landes: Media.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and and and those guys do some of the dirty work. So this is a part of very clever strategy. So there is an there'll be a nice liberal Good guy, you know, nobody will complain against him and call him an Islamic radical,
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: but then he's bringing others guys who'll be a little more and they'll bring in next guy who's even a little more. So there's a whole pyramid, a whole hierarchy of a spectrum of Islamic radicalism from very liberalism to very radicalism kind of being brought in. So th we have to understand these things. And we have and and you know the the role of India the role of India in training some of the most radical Muslims that come to the Western world has not been properly understood. And I would like to c enter to propose a project we could do together where, you know, some of the madrasas in India, some of the seminaries in India are train Arabs themselves are not they don't they they are their learning is not as sophisticated in terms of how to deal with the West as Indians are, because Indians have been with the British. So Indians really are good in English, unlike the Arabs and the Turks and the you know others. English the Indians are very sophisticated in their engagement with Westerners. So the madrasas in India, the the the theological centers of learning in India, Islamic centers of learning in India, are among the most advanced and sophisticated in figuring out the West and how to how to negotiate, how to deal, how to undermine,
Richard Landes: Wow.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: how to infiltrate, and they are supplying the the intellectual fodder. They're they're supplying the knowledge and large number of the people who come to to the Western world, Muslims are of Indian origin. And and
Richard Landes: Are do are there any that are there any that our mis listeners might know?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Well, you know, the the Mam Dani is half Indian. He's he's actually half Indian, half A African, mother
Richard Landes: Mm-hmm.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: is Indian, mother's an Indian. you know, and and and many of these people but I say Indian the South Asian, some of them are from Pakistan. They were you know
Richard Landes: Right. What about Midi Hassan?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: same same absolutely same. the many of the mayors in Pakistan, in the United Kingdom, UK, many of the Muslim mayors are from South Asia.
Richard Landes: okay, so wait a minute. What you're saying is that madrasas in India are producing not the jihadis, not the the violent ones, they're producing the ones who do dawah, who are good at speaking the language of the West or the language of the the larger society while they pursue the overthrow of it. Well.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: You know, like for instance, Al Jazeera has
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: behind the scenes in terms of the producers and the guys who do the research and all there, a lot of Indian people there. they they they hired these kind of guys. So they you know so so I think there's so much to talk about. This this movement you have started is public facing, but we also need in inward facing of private groups talking.
Richard Landes: I gotcha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Where where what we need to do is You, us, a few others need to come together and somewhere in the world, somewhere in Europe or US or somewhere we need to have a a two day conference or amongst ourselves. just to get to know each other, just to sh present papers. I would like to be I have people who present a lot of good papers.
Richard Landes: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm all in favor. Right. All right. So listen, we're running out of time and we still haven't gotten to the warrior the kshatria intellectuals. Talk about that.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: So so so I started calling myself an intellectual kshatriya. Actually I come from a tradition of Kshatriyas. They were protectors of temples and things like that
Richard Landes: right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: in ancient times. As I mentioned in Afghanistan and Pakistan area they were s they were the sun temples, they were one one of the big denominations and my ancestors were involved in that. So but modern times require A kind of kshatriya who is a debater who can argue who can go to Harvard and have a debate with those guys who can go to CNN if they were to ever invite me and debate with all these whoever they want. and that is the k intellectual kshatriya. So I have started training such people by example, saying, Give me give me the give me the strongest argument of from the other side and I'll give you a response. and and take me to the whoever is the toughest you know as long as they're not rude and violent and vulgar and do those kind of things, as long as they're decent people and intellectually oriented, I'll I'll argue with them and I will share values, we'll have give and
Richard Landes: Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: take, and I'd love to do that. So that is the spirit of the intellectual kshatriya. And we've had a tradition of intellectual kshatriyas for a very long time in our history. So you see, because Indians are very argumentative because all our Sacred texts are debates and discussions. Even the Bhagavad Gita. The Bhagavad Gita
Richard Landes: Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Bhagavad Gita is Sri Krishna, who is the Lord Himself, with Arjuna having a debate, 18 chapters of our debates back and forth, question answers. He keeps asking this question and that question and that question. And the idea is through this, we're teaching other people, we're teaching children knowledge
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: because these are questions and issues and doubts that people have. So you so the the main Texts are also argumentative in order to bring ideas out. And so the intellectual Kshatriya is an argumentative person. They thrive in knowledge and learning, and they debate with each other and they debate with outsiders. So that is the type of and there is a term called purva paksha, which is a Sanskrit term, it means you you try to understand the other in a sympathetic way to to understand what are their what where they're coming from. It's like due diligence on the other side. You really try to get
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: into their skin and figure out why are they saying this. So if it was my Purva Paksha of Abrahamic religions which led me to to come up with the idea of history centrism. Because
Richard Landes: I see. This idea of a culture of disputes is interesting because Danny Burmawi and I just had a conversation about this, and he claimed that Islam is allergic to criticism, that any dispute
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Of course.
Richard Landes: is viewed as an insult, as a blasphemy, as as something that must be revenged rather than something that must be grappled with.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yeah. See our view is that God gave us a brain and free thinking and mind for a reason. we o
Richard Landes: Okay.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: otherwise we're just a bunch of like you know, any other kind of creature. We have been given this, we are supposed to explore, we are supposed to discover, we are supposed to enlighten ourselves and enlighten each other and become better human beings. And we are supposed to science is a discovery and appreciation of God's creation. We are looking at how electrons move and how this part how the galaxies are, these are all God done all this and we've tried to amazing understanding this. So these mysteries are there for us to untangle and re investigate. And the nature of God Himself is such is so complex. If nature if physics is complex and chemistry and math have
Richard Landes: Right, right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: ongoing discoveries, you cannot expect that some guy long ago c made the final thing. What he came
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: up with was very good for that time. So another thing that you should understand, which is different about Hindutz. is texts are of two kinds, Shruti, which is eternal principles, and Spriti, which are contextual. Okay. So all the
Richard Landes: Interesting.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: all the sacred texts, all the sacred texts. So for instance, if it was a Hindu, we would not make one Bible. If it if Jesus Christ had been born in India, we would
Richard Landes: Well, they do have four versions.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: we we yeah but but we would have Jesus's own statements as the Shruti
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and then all the all the apostles
Richard Landes: Let's see.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and all the other Gospels and all that as Smithis because they are other people's a anecdotes, versions, interpretations,
Richard Landes: Gotcha.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: filtering. And so the Smithis ha are going on indefinitely. I'm writing new Smithis for today. I'm me myself. I'm writing how Hindus should deal with this issue or that issue. you know, that these are my smithis. And we're allowed to, not only allowed to, we're encouraged to, we're told Even in our most sacred text we are told that you are supposed to take this, apply it in a time, place context with innovation. You know. So
Richard Landes: Right. Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: the first principles are the first principles, but you have to interpret them and apply them in many different ways. So this is this is where I invite my Muslim friends, liberal friends, to reinterpret and be courageous about it. Like for instance, I have I I I have an issue.
Richard Landes: Let us both let it let us let us all invite them to this conversation. I think we
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes. Yes.
Richard Landes: have to schedule another discussion because there's just too much to discuss. And
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Yes.
Richard Landes: we're now at an hour and ten minutes. So do you want to say some final remarks before we go?
RAJIV MALHOTRA: my my final plea to the listeners who are Western from Western backgrounds is please try to understand Hindus and their long thousand year old encounters with Islam and what they've been through. In order to expand your own understanding of Islam and your own understanding of geopolitics today, don't be too proud and too confident. That you have the sophisticated knowledge and understanding of Islam because from a Hindu point of view, most Westerners I come across are very naive. They really don't know enough. And nor do they know the geopolitics of religion. Because if they were to understand the geopolitics of religion, they would not consider Hindus to be wrong people or other people, or enemies, or they would they would close ranks with Hindus. So I would encourage you to at least have take some time. And understand all this. I'm available to come and talk to you, debate with you, discuss with you, have seminars, closed door, open door. I'm willing to do that. I'm seventy six years old. I've spent most of my adult life doing this and I love nothing else but telling the truth and sharing with intelligent people. I'm I'm particularly impressed when people prove me wrong and I learn from that. I I
Richard Landes: Excellent.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: proven wrong many times
Richard Landes: Excellent.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: and I I love it. So I'm not a dogmatic guy. I don't have any fixed agenda.
Richard Landes: Right.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: I'm an open thinker and I invite other open thinkers so that we all become better. with mutual respect and learning from each other we'll all become better and be an example and role models how people of different faiths can come together and create a better future.
Richard Landes: Well, thank you very much, and I'm very pleased that you're one of our partners in Infidel Awareness Year. Yeah, I'm sorry, in Infidel Awareness Month. And I look forward to continuing to work with you in the future. We do.
RAJIV MALHOTRA: Thank you so much.