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[VO]: This is episode 256 of IDRA
Classnotes.
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Morgan Craven: What we want to do is
have systems in place that really
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encourage strong relationships where
people understand what's going on with
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the young people in the school. They're
connected to them. They know their
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families, and they have those strong
relationships rather than a system
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that's built on fear, which inevitably
will lead to kids not trusting the
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adults in their lives, not telling them
when something is going on, being afraid
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to share if something is happening with
their peers. And so, if we rely on fear,
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we're really destabilizing school
environments rather than investing in
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what we know works to keep kids safe.
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Aurelio Montemayor: Welcome back to
IDRA's Classnotes Podcast. My name is
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Aurelio Montemayor. I'm the Family
Engagement Coordinator, and I'm joined
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by Morgan Craven, who's IDRA's National
Director of Policy, Advocacy, and
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Community Engagement. In schools across
this country, especially for black and
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Latino low-income students, discipline
is too often meant exclusion,
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humiliation, and physical punishment.
And yet, we know something different is
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possible. We've seen it.
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Morgan Craven: Today we're asking, how
do we create schools that are orderly
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and welcoming and affirming, where
students are held responsible and
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treated with dignity? The real goal
isn't just to get students to behave,
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it's to help them become, and for
teachers to see and support the value
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and development of every child.
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Aurelio Montemayor: So what are five
things we should know about corporal
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punishment?
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Morgan Craven: Yes. So I think that a
lot of people don't know that we still
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have corporal punishment in schools in
the United States, and we do. I think
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that's really important for people to
understand. There are 20 states that
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still allow for corporal punishment to
happen to children in schools. And
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generally, corporal punishment is
defined as paddling, spanking, or
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another form of physical punishment
that's imposed on a child for discipline
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purposes. Here in Texas, where we live,
for example, the law also sort of lays
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out the types of physical punishment. So
a child in a Texas school that has
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corporate punishment can be spanked,
slapped, paddled, hit, or have other
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forms of physical violence used against
them for so-called discipline purposes.
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The last really robust year of national
data and robust is relative. But in the
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2017, 2018 school year, we know that
nearly 70,000 students, some of them who
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were as young as preschool age, so
that's three and four years old, were
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paddled, spanked, or hit in their
schools. And these are schools across
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the country. Some of these kids were hit
more than once. And we also know that
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many of these kids, groups of children,
were disproportionately hit. So we know
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that kids with disabilities make up
about 13% of the total K-12 school
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population in the United States, but
we're nearly 17% of students who were
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hit. We know that black children make up
about 15% of the student population in
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K-12 schools across the country but were
more than 37% of children hit. So there
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are very extreme disparities for certain
groups of students when it comes to
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corporal punishment in schools. The last
thing I'll say that we know is that most
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of these incidents of hitting happen in
the southern United States. So the state
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with the highest number of students hit
was Mississippi, Texas was second. Then
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we have Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma,
Tennessee, Georgia. So this is a real
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problem that is pretty concentrated in
southern states. And we know that the
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students that are experiencing corporal
punishment, both directly because they
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have been hit also the students that are
witnessing their peers being punished in
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this way are really suffering. So we
know that hitting has a negative impact
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on students' attendance, their academic
achievement, their ability to form
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strong social bonds with their peers and
their teachers, and even negative
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consequences later in life. And it's
certainly not good for school climates
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where we know we need to be investing in
children, in teachers, in the adults, in
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the school community, rather than
punishing them through these really
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extreme and barbaric forms of
discipline.
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Aurelio Montemayor: It may produce
compliance, but there's no real
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learning, no behavior change. It causes
negative academic and mental health
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outcomes. So for many reasons, it isn't
good. And we also know--
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Morgan Craven: That's very true.
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Aurelio Montemayor: --there's positive
alternatives.
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Morgan Craven: Yes.
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Aurelio Montemayor: Okay. So what does
respect for authority look like when
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it's built through relationships and
fairness, not fear?
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Morgan Craven: Fear is an interesting
word to use, and I'm glad that you used
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it. We have heard from, including some
policymakers who are supportive of
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corporal punishment, that what they
believe needs to happen for children to
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do what we expect them to do in the
classroom is that they need to feel
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fear. So they need to be afraid of the
adults in their classrooms. And that's
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really the opposite of what you want to
see when you're thinking about positive,
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strong relationships, which are really
the root of learning. They are key to
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kids wanting to come to school and show
up and be excited about school. They're
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the key to school safety. And so what we
want to do is have systems in place that
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really encourage strong relationships
where people understand what's going on
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with the young people in the school.
They're connected to them, they know
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their families, and they have those
strong relationships, rather than a
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system that's built on fear, which
inevitably will lead to kids not
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trusting the adults in their lives, not
telling them when something is going on,
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being afraid to share if something is
happening with their peers. And so if we
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rely on fear, we're really destabilizing
school environments rather than
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investing in what we know works to keep
kids safe. Has that been your
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experience, both as a teacher yourself,
Aurelio, and your many years at IDRA
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sort of thinking about what's best for
children and families?
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Aurelio Montemayor: One thing I learned
on is that listening to the student is
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very important. That authority is
strength and not weakened when they feel
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heard, when there's mutual respect, not
just one-way obedience, but also
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cultural responsiveness. When students
notice, for example, that certain groups
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of students are punished and others are
not, it not only goes against culture,
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it is unjust, and they see that. And so
even with students that aren't punished,
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it's difficult to build trust over time
because of how the school acts in these
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matters.
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Morgan Craven: Yeah, I think about that
a lot, what it must be to be a child in
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a classroom and to see a peer punished,
and what that means for your connection.
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Even if you aren't the one directly
being punished, but what that means for
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your connection to the learning
environment and to the adults that are
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doing the punishment, and ultimately
what it means to kids' connection to the
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kids who are being punished. And when we
think about corporal punishment and
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really any other form of discipline, we
know the kids that are
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disproportionately punished. As we
mentioned at the beginning, it's black
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students, black boys and black girls,
it's children with disabilities, it's
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LGBTQ+ kids. And so when those are the
kids that everyone else sees are the
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ones that are targeted, and the adults
are saying, "These are the kids that we
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exclude. These are the kids that we hit
disproportionately. These are the kids
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that are labeled as bad," I think it
really does a lot to put into students'
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brains an opinion about other kids that
really gets in the way of the
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relationship building and diverse
relationship building that we want to
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see in schools.
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Aurelio Montemayor: As a classroom
teacher, I realize teaching is a huge
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responsibility. It is not easy. It
requires a lot of attention and time.
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And right now, the way schools are being
attacked, teachers feel the pressure.
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But I also know that when we have these
conversations, a teacher will say,
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"Well, we need stronger consequences."
Well, addressing the root causes is a
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strong consequence because you look on
behavior as communication. You look at
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unmet needs, academic struggle, trauma,
instability, rather a need for harsher
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punishment. That does not get to the
root cause. You need an environment that
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has different kinds of interventions,
layered interventions that you do before
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things escalate. It's not just access to
counselors and mental health supports,
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but the teachers as classroom teachers
need to be given the tools to, how do
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you create the environment so that when
there is something, there's a
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disturbance? How do you deal with it in
such a way so that the classroom
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continues, but you don't have to take
excessive measures because that does not
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get at the root cause?
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Morgan Craven: I agree. And I also think
it's important for teachers to get the
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tools to understand kind of what they're
bringing into the classroom that
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influences how they're seeing student
behavior. So what we see in a lot of
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discipline data is that students of
color, particularly Black students,
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students with disability, are punished
more harshly for the same behaviors that
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are exhibited by their peers. And so in
some cases, it's a matter of saying,
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"What does that student need? Is there
something going on in their lives that's
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leading to this particular behavior? How
can we help address the root cause?" But
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in some cases, it's saying, "Teachers
are looking at certain children
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differently than they're looking at
others." And how do we equip them with
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the tools to understand that they are
doing that, and to instead - and I know
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I'm speaking your love language here -
really take asset-based approaches to
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teaching and see the value of every
single student in their classroom and
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really recognize how to pour something
positive into children, rather than
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identifying what could be a really
age-appropriate behavior as something
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worth punishing?
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Aurelio Montemayor: Morgan, sometimes
when we use the phrase restorative
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practices instead of exclusion, there's
an adult frustration about that. And
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what we're saying, these are better
tools. They ensure accountability but
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also preserve the dignity and connection
to learning. When we exclude the
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students from the learning environment,
there's a disconnection. There's no
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remediation. You remove them from the
environment. Accountability should
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happen while maintaining access to
instruction in some way. That has to
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continue.
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Morgan Craven: I agree.
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Aurelio Montemayor: But also, that
reflection is structured into the
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institution. And this might be difficult
for some administrators to see, but the
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environment that you create of
communication, how you work with staff,
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how staff is given these kinds of tools,
creates the environment where, instead
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of telling a kid, "You're the problem,"
you say, "Okay, you made a mistake.
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Let's work around that." But you cannot
protect that dignity and growth if the
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environment has not been already
informed and adapted to that
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administrators, counselors, and
teachers, so that--
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Morgan Craven: I totally agree. And I
would add-- and I'm going to turn this
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into a question for you. Obviously,
families are a big part of that. So what
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do you think-- in your many years of
experience engaging with families and
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helping them to engage in policy and
practice in their schools, what role do
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you think families have to play in
shaping discipline policies and
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practices that reflect cultural values
and reflect a commitment to student
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well-being and equity?
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Aurelio Montemayor: Well, one of the
challenges I keep facing in our work and
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community engagement is that I'm dealing
with talking to, connecting with
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families that are excluded. They're not
considered part. They don't sit on
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committees. They're not the PTA
officers. And yet, I think the families,
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the working families, the regular
families that maybe don't even come to
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the meetings are the ones you have to
bring in to shape the discipline,
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because a conversation that includes
families and students talking about it
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becomes an environment familial in the
best sense of that. The school becomes
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that community because remember,
community knowledge, how many years of
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experience does a mother who's raising
five kids have that we need from her?
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She's gotten her PhD from life. And so
schools don't see that in that way. And
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in fact, some of the parents that I work
with in South Texas encourage them to
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join the PTA and a lady goes in and they
tell her, oh, we're glad you're here so
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you can help sell tamales so we can
raise money. In other words, it's almost
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like a cheap labor pool and that's not
the engagement we need. Families engaged
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talking and talking about critical
issues like behavior. How do we have an
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environment that's safe for all the kids
that kids are learning when one child is
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somehow disruptive, what do we do so
that the punishment doesn't make it
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worse, doesn't exclude the student, but
that teaching continue? The other part
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about it is families have certain
cultures and certain patterns that are
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very useful for us to understand and
integrate into the school. Because a lot
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of times it might be a culture clash or
a difference of culture of the campus
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that makes the students somehow rebel or
not fit in. And also understanding that
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students don't speak from a dictionary
or from a literary book. The language of
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students is not necessarily an insult.
[laughter]
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Morgan Craven: Yeah, that's really
important. I also culture and community
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are such important and interesting
aspects of the corporal punishment
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conversation. I think a lot of people
rely on culture and community as an
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excuse to continue hitting children in
schools. We hear a lot, "Well, I was hit
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and I turned out fine, or this is what
our community does." And I think part of
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the work that we do is really push and
challenge that. One, I don't think
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that's true in a lot of communities. I
don't think that they would want their
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children to be hit in schools and that
label is put on them unfairly. But I
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also think it's an opportunity to be
really clear about the harms of corporal
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punishment in school and all of the
tools that exist out there to move to
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something that is more positive, more
rooted in student dignity that
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encourages safe and supportive and
well-managed classrooms. So I think
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that’s one of the challenges and
opportunities we have in the work is to
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really reframe how we think about
students and how they should be treated.
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And I think a lot of communities are on
board and maybe get this sort of unfair
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label that harsh discipline is what they
would want.
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Aurelio Montemayor: And as we come close
to the end of our conversation, corporal
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punishment sometimes may produce a
moment of silence, but it doesn't
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produce understanding. It doesn't
produce responsibility or trust. And too
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often it leaves lasting harm, especially
for students who are already carrying
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the weight of inequity. So it's not
whether schools need discipline. Of
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course they do. What kind? And do we
want discipline that helps connect and
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transform or that just excludes or
punishes?
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Morgan Craven: Well said. Thank you for
this today. What an important start to a
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conversation about corporate punishment,
discipline, and I think the most
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important thing, how do we invest in
students and teachers and create the
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schools that are safe and welcoming and
affirming that we want for all young
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people.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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[VO]: Thank you for listening to IDRA
Classnotes. For more information on IDRA
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and other class notes topics, go to
www.idra.org. You can also send us your
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thoughts by email to podcast at
IDRA.org.
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:12,999
[VO]: This is episode 256 of IDRA
Classnotes.
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Morgan Craven: What we want to do is
have systems in place that really
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encourage strong relationships where
people understand what's going on with
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the young people in the school. They're
connected to them. They know their
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families, and they have those strong
relationships rather than a system
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that's built on fear, which inevitably
will lead to kids not trusting the
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adults in their lives, not telling them
when something is going on, being afraid
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00:00:38,953 --> 00:00:43,643
to share if something is happening with
their peers. And so, if we rely on fear,
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00:00:43,644 --> 00:00:47,801
we're really destabilizing school
environments rather than investing in
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what we know works to keep kids safe.
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Aurelio Montemayor: Welcome back to
IDRA's Classnotes Podcast. My name is
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Aurelio Montemayor. I'm the Family
Engagement Coordinator, and I'm joined
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by Morgan Craven, who's IDRA's National
Director of Policy, Advocacy, and
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Community Engagement. In schools across
this country, especially for black and
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Latino low-income students, discipline
is too often meant exclusion,
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humiliation, and physical punishment.
And yet, we know something different is
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possible. We've seen it.
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Morgan Craven: Today we're asking, how
do we create schools that are orderly
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and welcoming and affirming, where
students are held responsible and
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treated with dignity? The real goal
isn't just to get students to behave,
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it's to help them become, and for
teachers to see and support the value
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and development of every child.
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Aurelio Montemayor: So what are five
things we should know about corporal
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punishment?
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Morgan Craven: Yes. So I think that a
lot of people don't know that we still
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have corporal punishment in schools in
the United States, and we do. I think
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that's really important for people to
understand. There are 20 states that
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still allow for corporal punishment to
happen to children in schools. And
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generally, corporal punishment is
defined as paddling, spanking, or
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another form of physical punishment
that's imposed on a child for discipline
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purposes. Here in Texas, where we live,
for example, the law also sort of lays
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out the types of physical punishment. So
a child in a Texas school that has
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corporate punishment can be spanked,
slapped, paddled, hit, or have other
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forms of physical violence used against
them for so-called discipline purposes.
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The last really robust year of national
data and robust is relative. But in the
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2017, 2018 school year, we know that
nearly 70,000 students, some of them who
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were as young as preschool age, so
that's three and four years old, were
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paddled, spanked, or hit in their
schools. And these are schools across
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the country. Some of these kids were hit
more than once. And we also know that
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many of these kids, groups of children,
were disproportionately hit. So we know
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that kids with disabilities make up
about 13% of the total K-12 school
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population in the United States, but
we're nearly 17% of students who were
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hit. We know that black children make up
about 15% of the student population in
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K-12 schools across the country but were
more than 37% of children hit. So there
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are very extreme disparities for certain
groups of students when it comes to
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corporal punishment in schools. The last
thing I'll say that we know is that most
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of these incidents of hitting happen in
the southern United States. So the state
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with the highest number of students hit
was Mississippi, Texas was second. Then
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we have Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma,
Tennessee, Georgia. So this is a real
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problem that is pretty concentrated in
southern states. And we know that the
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students that are experiencing corporal
punishment, both directly because they
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have been hit also the students that are
witnessing their peers being punished in
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this way are really suffering. So we
know that hitting has a negative impact
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on students' attendance, their academic
achievement, their ability to form
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strong social bonds with their peers and
their teachers, and even negative
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consequences later in life. And it's
certainly not good for school climates
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where we know we need to be investing in
children, in teachers, in the adults, in
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the school community, rather than
punishing them through these really
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extreme and barbaric forms of
discipline.
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Aurelio Montemayor: It may produce
compliance, but there's no real
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learning, no behavior change. It causes
negative academic and mental health
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outcomes. So for many reasons, it isn't
good. And we also know--
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Morgan Craven: That's very true.
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Aurelio Montemayor: --there's positive
alternatives.
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Morgan Craven: Yes.
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Aurelio Montemayor: Okay. So what does
respect for authority look like when
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it's built through relationships and
fairness, not fear?
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Morgan Craven: Fear is an interesting
word to use, and I'm glad that you used
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it. We have heard from, including some
policymakers who are supportive of
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corporal punishment, that what they
believe needs to happen for children to
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do what we expect them to do in the
classroom is that they need to feel
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fear. So they need to be afraid of the
adults in their classrooms. And that's
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really the opposite of what you want to
see when you're thinking about positive,
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strong relationships, which are really
the root of learning. They are key to
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kids wanting to come to school and show
up and be excited about school. They're
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the key to school safety. And so what we
want to do is have systems in place that
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really encourage strong relationships
where people understand what's going on
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with the young people in the school.
They're connected to them, they know
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their families, and they have those
strong relationships, rather than a
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system that's built on fear, which
inevitably will lead to kids not
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trusting the adults in their lives, not
telling them when something is going on,
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being afraid to share if something is
happening with their peers. And so if we
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rely on fear, we're really destabilizing
school environments rather than
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investing in what we know works to keep
kids safe. Has that been your
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experience, both as a teacher yourself,
Aurelio, and your many years at IDRA
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sort of thinking about what's best for
children and families?
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Aurelio Montemayor: One thing I learned
on is that listening to the student is
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very important. That authority is
strength and not weakened when they feel
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heard, when there's mutual respect, not
just one-way obedience, but also
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cultural responsiveness. When students
notice, for example, that certain groups
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of students are punished and others are
not, it not only goes against culture,
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it is unjust, and they see that. And so
even with students that aren't punished,
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it's difficult to build trust over time
because of how the school acts in these
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matters.
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Morgan Craven: Yeah, I think about that
a lot, what it must be to be a child in
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a classroom and to see a peer punished,
and what that means for your connection.
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Even if you aren't the one directly
being punished, but what that means for
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your connection to the learning
environment and to the adults that are
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doing the punishment, and ultimately
what it means to kids' connection to the
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kids who are being punished. And when we
think about corporal punishment and
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really any other form of discipline, we
know the kids that are
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disproportionately punished. As we
mentioned at the beginning, it's black
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students, black boys and black girls,
it's children with disabilities, it's
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LGBTQ+ kids. And so when those are the
kids that everyone else sees are the
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ones that are targeted, and the adults
are saying, "These are the kids that we
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exclude. These are the kids that we hit
disproportionately. These are the kids
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that are labeled as bad," I think it
really does a lot to put into students'
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brains an opinion about other kids that
really gets in the way of the
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relationship building and diverse
relationship building that we want to
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see in schools.
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Aurelio Montemayor: As a classroom
teacher, I realize teaching is a huge
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responsibility. It is not easy. It
requires a lot of attention and time.
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And right now, the way schools are being
attacked, teachers feel the pressure.
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But I also know that when we have these
conversations, a teacher will say,
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"Well, we need stronger consequences."
Well, addressing the root causes is a
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strong consequence because you look on
behavior as communication. You look at
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unmet needs, academic struggle, trauma,
instability, rather a need for harsher
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punishment. That does not get to the
root cause. You need an environment that
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has different kinds of interventions,
layered interventions that you do before
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things escalate. It's not just access to
counselors and mental health supports,
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but the teachers as classroom teachers
need to be given the tools to, how do
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you create the environment so that when
there is something, there's a
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disturbance? How do you deal with it in
such a way so that the classroom
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continues, but you don't have to take
excessive measures because that does not
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get at the root cause?
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Morgan Craven: I agree. And I also think
it's important for teachers to get the
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tools to understand kind of what they're
bringing into the classroom that
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influences how they're seeing student
behavior. So what we see in a lot of
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discipline data is that students of
color, particularly Black students,
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students with disability, are punished
more harshly for the same behaviors that
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are exhibited by their peers. And so in
some cases, it's a matter of saying,
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"What does that student need? Is there
something going on in their lives that's
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leading to this particular behavior? How
can we help address the root cause?" But
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in some cases, it's saying, "Teachers
are looking at certain children
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differently than they're looking at
others." And how do we equip them with
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the tools to understand that they are
doing that, and to instead - and I know
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I'm speaking your love language here -
really take asset-based approaches to
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teaching and see the value of every
single student in their classroom and
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really recognize how to pour something
positive into children, rather than
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identifying what could be a really
age-appropriate behavior as something
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worth punishing?
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Aurelio Montemayor: Morgan, sometimes
when we use the phrase restorative
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practices instead of exclusion, there's
an adult frustration about that. And
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what we're saying, these are better
tools. They ensure accountability but
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also preserve the dignity and connection
to learning. When we exclude the
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students from the learning environment,
there's a disconnection. There's no
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remediation. You remove them from the
environment. Accountability should
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happen while maintaining access to
instruction in some way. That has to
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continue.
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Morgan Craven: I agree.
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Aurelio Montemayor: But also, that
reflection is structured into the
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institution. And this might be difficult
for some administrators to see, but the
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environment that you create of
communication, how you work with staff,
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how staff is given these kinds of tools,
creates the environment where, instead
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of telling a kid, "You're the problem,"
you say, "Okay, you made a mistake.
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Let's work around that." But you cannot
protect that dignity and growth if the
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environment has not been already
informed and adapted to that
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administrators, counselors, and
teachers, so that--
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Morgan Craven: I totally agree. And I
would add-- and I'm going to turn this
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into a question for you. Obviously,
families are a big part of that. So what
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do you think-- in your many years of
experience engaging with families and
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helping them to engage in policy and
practice in their schools, what role do
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you think families have to play in
shaping discipline policies and
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practices that reflect cultural values
and reflect a commitment to student
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well-being and equity?
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Aurelio Montemayor: Well, one of the
challenges I keep facing in our work and
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community engagement is that I'm dealing
with talking to, connecting with
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families that are excluded. They're not
considered part. They don't sit on
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committees. They're not the PTA
officers. And yet, I think the families,
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the working families, the regular
families that maybe don't even come to
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the meetings are the ones you have to
bring in to shape the discipline,
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because a conversation that includes
families and students talking about it
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becomes an environment familial in the
best sense of that. The school becomes
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that community because remember,
community knowledge, how many years of
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experience does a mother who's raising
five kids have that we need from her?
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She's gotten her PhD from life. And so
schools don't see that in that way. And
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in fact, some of the parents that I work
with in South Texas encourage them to
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join the PTA and a lady goes in and they
tell her, oh, we're glad you're here so
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you can help sell tamales so we can
raise money. In other words, it's almost
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like a cheap labor pool and that's not
the engagement we need. Families engaged
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talking and talking about critical
issues like behavior. How do we have an
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environment that's safe for all the kids
that kids are learning when one child is
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somehow disruptive, what do we do so
that the punishment doesn't make it
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worse, doesn't exclude the student, but
that teaching continue? The other part
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about it is families have certain
cultures and certain patterns that are
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very useful for us to understand and
integrate into the school. Because a lot
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of times it might be a culture clash or
a difference of culture of the campus
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that makes the students somehow rebel or
not fit in. And also understanding that
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students don't speak from a dictionary
or from a literary book. The language of
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students is not necessarily an insult.
[laughter]
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Morgan Craven: Yeah, that's really
important. I also culture and community
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are such important and interesting
aspects of the corporal punishment
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conversation. I think a lot of people
rely on culture and community as an
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excuse to continue hitting children in
schools. We hear a lot, "Well, I was hit
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and I turned out fine, or this is what
our community does." And I think part of
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the work that we do is really push and
challenge that. One, I don't think
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that's true in a lot of communities. I
don't think that they would want their
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children to be hit in schools and that
label is put on them unfairly. But I
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also think it's an opportunity to be
really clear about the harms of corporal
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punishment in school and all of the
tools that exist out there to move to
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something that is more positive, more
rooted in student dignity that
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encourages safe and supportive and
well-managed classrooms. So I think
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that’s one of the challenges and
opportunities we have in the work is to
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really reframe how we think about
students and how they should be treated.
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And I think a lot of communities are on
board and maybe get this sort of unfair
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label that harsh discipline is what they
would want.
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Aurelio Montemayor: And as we come close
to the end of our conversation, corporal
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punishment sometimes may produce a
moment of silence, but it doesn't
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produce understanding. It doesn't
produce responsibility or trust. And too
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often it leaves lasting harm, especially
for students who are already carrying
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the weight of inequity. So it's not
whether schools need discipline. Of
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course they do. What kind? And do we
want discipline that helps connect and
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transform or that just excludes or
punishes?
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Morgan Craven: Well said. Thank you for
this today. What an important start to a
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conversation about corporate punishment,
discipline, and I think the most
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important thing, how do we invest in
students and teachers and create the
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schools that are safe and welcoming and
affirming that we want for all young
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people.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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[VO]: Thank you for listening to IDRA
Classnotes. For more information on IDRA
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and other class notes topics, go to
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