speaker-0: Welcome everyone to the Human Intelligence Podcast episode three with Mark and myself. On this episode, we are going to be talking about something that Mark and I didn't actually know what it meant at first: third places. And our third places being replaced by digital communities. And third places is basically pubs, bars, restaurants, cafes, anywhere that historically we would have congregated and seen our friends and our and our communities, if you like. But before we get stuck into that, I just want to address something that Mark hasn't even seen. And it's one of the shorts that was put live from the first episode. And it's a short where, Mark, you were talking about the guy in Australia, and this is obviously something you've read, it's not something you know as gospel, something you've read, a report about the guy in Australia that booked the Pilates class, or got his AI agent to book the Pilates class. And the AI AI agent apparently saw that it was full, took someone's booking out and slotted this guy in. And you were just sort of talking about the fact that you'd read this from Australia. And there were so many I mean it had like 2,000 likes, a hundred plus comments, and a lot of the comments were were really humorous. You know, they were they were suggesting other things that that AI could have booked where people could benefit. Obviously there were a lot of AI purists or or AI haters, shall we say, one side of the fence or the other, that were proper on the attack. What? As if as if you and I had written it and made it up and and that we hadn't read it, we'd actually th that we were the Australian. I mean, you sound about as far removed from an Australian as it gets.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean that's it. Yeah, I'm it's probably as far away from Australia as you could possibly get.
speaker-0: So we it so just to just to address that, we we it wasn't our story, it was something that Mark had read.
speaker-1: No, actually I heard it on the BBC radio. So BBC Radio 2, you know, the Jeremy Vine show. so yeah. I mean, yeah, just just secondhand information, but I think it was more less the story, more the point of the story. Yeah. As yeah, and what we got into in that episode, and it's worth checking out about how a an AI will just keep trying to do its task. But yeah, wow. There
speaker-0: There you go.
speaker-1: you go, the world. Well,
speaker-0: What happened was we I don't I've never expected any of these episodes or this pod this podcast for us, for the people listening, is not about becoming number one in the podcast charts. No. This is this podcast is about probably a handful of people that actually get some sort of value out out of listening to two middle aged blokes banging on. But also about creating little snippets of content that Mark and I can use for our business and it's organic, it's conversational, it's the sort of stuff hopefully people relate to, and that's the goal. It's not to be the number one podcast in the world. So when I saw on TikTok after not being on there for a few days that this reel, this forty second reel had got a hundred and thirty thousand views, I thought, what the hell has been said here? Like yeah, and it that just shows you how lucky it is 'cause most of the reels get about five hundred views if you're lucky.
speaker-1: Well, there we go.
speaker-0: Potluck. It's potluck. So, third places. I did have to ask Claude what third places meant, 'cause I d really didn't understand it. And then it when he when c my god, I've just said he. When it when it came back, this is a slippery slope mark.
speaker-1: that's it you're you're screwed. That's it it's got ya.
speaker-0: When it came back with what it was, places, pubs, bars, you know, different things, it made sense. But the topic is and this is real this is a real topic for debate, I think, can or are digital communities of which I've tried to start on a couple of occasions unsuccessfully, are they replacing these real life third places that perhaps you and I grew up with?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I like you say, d we'd we're going into this not knowing what third place actually was only third place I remember was what I got on sports day at school. And I was lucky and I was I was lucky no, last place. I know, I know. I know. I dreamt of third place.
speaker-0: When you were racing three.
speaker-1: Five. Two. Yeah, and I got third place. but yeah, no, I mean yeah, interesting. Interesting. The the the third place that that place is where you go. so I guess you know, doing our research that we did, first place is home, second place is work, and third place is yeah, places like the pub and what have you, places that you go With th th but it's unplanned. That's not part of a a thing. So yeah, is digital kind of threatening that? I d yeah, I mean I guess digital platforms, digital communities are always gonna be, you know, seen as more of a threat than an alternative, potentially. I think there's just that whole that whole kind of feeling around digital. And I am we touched this on the previous episodes, it's it's not evil. It's not bad, but things that have that kind of that are called digital or online or anything like that, they're always seen as untrustworthy or not there's not such a deep connection. There's not that personal contact with that. So but convenience as well, I think plays a massive part in it. That it's easier to jump online or sit these days on your city with your phone and jump on a WhatsApp group or or whatever the platform is. Do you think that's a great
speaker-0: Do you think there's a laziness in because there's a fine line, isn't there, between convenience and laziness? And I often look at it and think and and look at how often I make the effort to see people in person. Yeah. And it's considerably less than it would have been ten years ago. and and I often look and think, is that me being lazy or is that me just adapting to the opportunities that are that are there? But then I I'll often sit back and go, but when I do see people, I I come away with a real sense of satisfaction that we've been in the same room, we've had that physical connection, we've r had a real laugh about different things. But would I still get that same sense of satisfaction that I get today? Because I don't do it that much if I was doing it more regularly, or would it just be normal life?
speaker-1: Dang my good great point. If you're doing something all the time, then how special does it become? That is it is it better to just have these things as as events or, you know, something that you make an effort to do and get more reward from? Yeah, I don't know if it it maybe it's it's convenience laziness. Is part of it guilt as well? Are you ticking a box saying, Well, I've checked in and that's enough? You know, rather than phone someone, message them, you know I mean, because it's easier and it's like, well, at least I've I've Communicated, at least I've got in contact, I've done my part. Yeah. It's an interesting one. It's a really interesting one. One of the
speaker-0: One of the areas we want to discuss and and I guess explore on this episode is the the whole tensions around online communities versus in-person communities. Because the reality is the the digital communities that we form, whether it's social media, whether it's group calls, whatever, whether ones that we we start, we actually choose who who forms those communities. We actually surround ourselves with the people that we want to be around. Whereas in real life in some of those third places, we don't. Actually what's happened since COVID is that a lot of people have come out saying, I actually don't like being in those busy environments anymore. I I I find them too chaotic. Certain environments people annoy me. I'd rather just choose my small sections and and that's why digital suits me. And so is that is has that become a challenge now for people? The the the the fact that they can't choose their Real life communities.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean that's it. Now it's one of these things now you've been given a chance to choose that you can create these experiences, create curate these these third places. Yeah, that's good that's that's that's powerful. That you can you can but then is part of the appeal of these third places, is why we get so much from them is spontaneity, is that you don't know who's gonna walk in. You don't know Who's gonna be there at a given time? Yes, you choose to go to that place for whatever reason, but you have no control over who gets in and out of that and who you're gonna kinda bump into. so yeah, does it make does the on the digital platform do you is is there is there a need to create that? Do you have to work harder to have that? Or yeah, is having control of who you're spending time with, you know, more important? I guess that's the question we're what we're kinda asking, yeah. And absolutely, certainly out out of coming out of the back of of of lockdown where people places are too busy, you know, or you felt that it was too busy because you're so used to, you know, having space and not being in contact with people all of a sudden. I mean I I even before then I I get quite anxious if somewhere's very, very crowded, you know. mild claustrophobia, but it's just more If there's too much people, it's just it's it's n it's not pleasant. I don't go to life gigs because of that reason. I just don't like big crowds of people. but yeah, that control is it a control thing that people can I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean I quite like spontaneity. Don't get me wrong, I c I quite like meeting new people. I quite like different conversations. I quite like someone's point of view coming in that I wouldn't didn't ask for and then completely changing the way I think about something or sparking off some a conversation that you never knew. I mean that's the art of conversation, isn't it? It just it's it's not prescripted. It's a stream of consciousness.
speaker-0: And I get you on the the the busy environment scene. There's I don't go to live gigs for exactly the same reason. there's there's nothing about a live gig with fifty thousand people all crammed into a stadium. I I've I've been to watch a few football matches. You know, as a football fan, I've been to watch a lot of matches over the years and come away thinking never again because of the amount of people all cramming into a a a a relatively small space and the chaos of it. and I've had some terrible experiences with opposition fans and stuff like that, where I guess I wasn't really playing the the game of a football fan with public transport situations and punches in the back of the head and all that sort of stuff. So I I've definitely avoided avoided that in the main. Another point that I think is really, really important to raise is about people getting left out. And I think this is something that's come about a lot more in the last few years. Digital communities can help people who feel isolated, disabled, they're in rural environments, they can't necessarily get to those in-person situations. and it can it can do a lot of good for those for those communities of people that that don't have that access. and that I guess that would be a a massive tick in the in the in the pro box for digital communities versus ones in real life, wouldn't it?
speaker-1: yeah, absolutely. And again, as we as we discovered and we're only in episode three, that there's not it's not good or bad. You know what I mean? There's there's I guess it comes on what do you want to get from the experience? What do you what are you trying to get from it? And absolutely if you're not able for whatever reason, and many reasons why you can't physically get somewhere, then absolutely, you know what I mean, what should you do? Just sit there and not talk to anyone and be completely alone or utilize these things. I guess we all got a taste of that during lockdown. I know we mentioned lockdown a lot, but I mean it's I mean in our generation it's probably one of the biggest things to happen, you know, on a global scale. But I think we all got that sense of we're all used to I can just nip out. I can just go and talk to someone and then all of a sudden that's taken away from it. Slight answer watched a movie at the weekend can't for life of remember what the name of it is. It'll come back to me. But it's about it it it's very much you know, very much lockdown vibes and it was definitely it definitely resonated. But it's a it's about people that are trapped in their house. Every house is locked in, they can't get out. They can't physically open the door, so they're stuck in their house. And I think that I won't spoil anything, but it's over the course of like five years. They can't get out, so they've got to live within their their houses and what can affect that that hasn't it. it's amazing what you what you can take for granted until it's taken away. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, we've got to adapt. Now, there is a question with you know you could a hypothetical question, if lockdown ever happened, would digital platforms be so popular? Probably would, because technology's always advancing. But yeah, we can't just go that's good, that's bad. I think it plays its part. But again, choice as well comes into it, control. It's you you know Maybe you don't have a choice and that's the only, you know, option you have that you have to choose that. yeah, again, it just comes down to what what you want to get from the experience, I think. What what what do you want to get out of it? Is it just contact? Isn't not to feel lonely or isolated? Do you need information? Do you yeah, I mean.
speaker-0: I I think there's an there's another thing to look at as well that's potentially goes perhaps not in favour necessarily of the digital communities, and that is that they they come up, they pop up and down all the time, don't they? And I think it's so easy now to start a digital community because it's the buzzword and everyone feels like they want to start one, especially if it's a paid community. A lot of people are using it as a revenue stream on the side of their businesses. And but you can You and I I've I've been guilty of this. You can underestimate the importance of that community to the people that join it. And then all of a sudden the person that runs it, who doesn't really understand the value that it has to those individuals, can just close it like that because it doesn't fit within what they have going on at the time, or it doesn't fit their business model, or they've just grown out of love with it. And that it's then That that person's no longer got access to those people within that community. Whereas a coffee shop or a pub or a bar, it it's a it's a di that the chances are they're always gonna be there. So even if one or two people drop from that that personal community, you're still gonna have others in there. You can still feed others into that community because that's how it works. But with a digital one, once the owner decides I'm shutting that off, you're done.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean well again it comes back to ca that control or not knowing the value in it and what what you know what people experience why why are people deciding to join that. Again we're coming back to choice. It all seems to be coming back to that. one person's choice affects a whole community when it's digital because it's digital seen as easy, convenient, it's you know and like you say, people are are it's easy to set up, it's easy to kinda get not easy to grow, don't get me wrong. You know, but yeah, if somebody just decides that's not working anymore, they're not taking into consideration, well, what impact is that having on like you say, they shut it down, that's everybody out. Whereas physical third places, yeah, a couple of people might stop going or or or not turn up, but it doesn't really change what you get from it. yeah, that's definitely I'll definitely put that in the con section of yeah, just the just the The nature of it is digital can be switched off. I think it's that. A physical place can't be switched off. Digital can. For many reasons. It might be th the the the person who runs it decides not, like we said. It could be technical problems. It could be, you know, any number of things. Technology isn't infallible. You know what I mean? So yeah, that's again, it's all coming back to control and in in in choice. It's digital, do you have It's like you've got more control.
speaker-0: You're you're part of a couple of digital communities, aren't you?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Through networking and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm part of that. For for for the for the business. Now they go beyond the realms of just online meetings or or and and some of them do a mix of in person as well. although the ones that I'm part of that are down south, I d I don't get a chance to go to those in person. And they spread out onto WhatsApp groups and other kind of platforms and stuff as well. I don't tend to do them because I don't do WhatsApp. As I've I've stated before. But and that's just a choice. That's just me choosing not to do that because yeah, I don't not have to have time. It's just I know I myself I would become lost and it'd be a rabbit hole that I would just kind of disappear. So that's me choosing not to. But I say that's a valuable aspect for certainly from me as a business owner working on my own remotely, that I'm choosing to do that to have contact to grow a network, another name for a community. but it's more than that. I think it's more than just from a business point of view. It's I want to speak to someone you know I've got ideas in my head that I need to to release, I need to get out, I need to bounce those off a s another human being. Does it matter if that's physical or digital? I don't really know.
speaker-0: I've found I've found that a lot of the the two communities that I started, one of them's still active, but it it's relatively small. But I've found that and people have told me this before about communities they've been in, they start digital because that's a great way of getting the ball rolling because of the platforms that we have access to. But very often, a lot of the people that join those communities join them probably because they feel quite alone, quite isolated, quite lonely, especially if they're working alone, like like you and I do a lot of the time. We feel that we lack that connection that perhaps we used to have. But what happens is those digital communities then certain people within them try and push them to real life. So they start in one way, but they evolve and that then gives you the option. You've got the digital community for the people that want it to just stay as that. But then you've got the option to branch out and obviously meet and cement certain relationships within that community in real life. So maybe the whole digital thing, it's not a replacement, it's an easier route to entry.
speaker-1: Yes. That's a great way of looking at it. yeah, easier to see, yeah, yeah, easier to get involved for whatever reason, meaning you feel more comfortable. Again, touching on something we touched on in in in previous episodes is that it's a bit easier to to be yourself, to be when they're you've got that kind of shield of a of a screen. and then when you go to meet them, you already know them. You've kind of you've done that first getting to know you stage. without the kind of awkwardness of walking a room full of people you don't know. I'm one of these weirdos that quite likes doing that. I quite like going out a room full of people I don't know. I mean yeah I like to make an entrance. this is one of the tamer ones as well. but yeah but I can see how that would be appealing to get to know someone on your I guess on your terms I kinda come back to control and choice. You're choosing how You do it and does digital allow you a bit more control over that process before physical? So is it again, a balance? Is not one's better than the other, but one can enhance the other? That yeah, you're absolutely right. Digital communities tend to go right when we inevitably they'll all evolve into an in person meetup. Most of them do.
speaker-0: Do you know what, mate, as well? We i we talk about third places. Let me touch on second place for a minute, which is work. So when and and this all links in because when COVID kicked in, loads of people just in the industry we were in, we were working in an office, it was literally one day we were all there, the next day, bang, we were at home. And and that happened in what the March of twenty twenty? And we didn't come back. Well, officially we weren't allowed to come back until the end of July the following year. So most people had had about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen months, whatever it was, working at home, getting used to that type of work. Now for years before, those people had all worked in an environment that if you love the hustle and bustle of a busy office, you go, Well, it's lovely, yeah. Why would anyone not want this? Probably 50% of the people I worked with in at the time that actually it transpires hated that environment. They were less productive, they hated being listened to by their colleagues if they were on calls, they hated the feeling of being watched all the time. And yeah, the odd one or two knew that they were being watched because they were taking the piss. But most of them were really hard workers. So while it was And even now I think people really struggle with understanding that that that notion that people some people can be more productive, left alone, in their digital silo, if you like, not surrounded by people, not having to come to the office. And it's a really difficult thing for business owners, CEOs, people that run big teams to kind of understand because they just want people in, don't they? They just want people together because it's their perception is Surely you're better together. But not everyone is.
speaker-1: No. No, I mean not everybody works or plays well together and and works as works as a team. Like I say, 'cause you're dealing with when you're a group of people in office, you're dealing with politics as well. It's not just about the work. You know, there's there's the whole game that you play when you're in a a team like that and different departments, the them and us attitude and things like that. So yeah, removing yourself from that, you can be more productive. But yeah, like you say, the flip side of that is people do thrive in that environment. They need that input, they need that stimulus and need that having a chat while they're making a coffee to to do their work. They need that that constant kind of contact. They they they don't want to feel like it's all on them and and they're all you know they're doing it alone. They need to feel we're all part of a team. We're all in it together. yeah, I mean it was interesting. It definitely opened up working remotely opened up a massive discussion when we're still carrying on now today. About the hybrid working and and all that. and what's good, what's bad, what's the best way of doing it. Again, we're coming down to choice of what works best for you. And I think is selling business and employers, if you employ staff, is again, what's going to help them get be most productive, what's going to help them enjoy their work and do the best that they can. If that's working at home, let them work at home. If that's working, in an office, then let them work in the office. You know what I mean? I mean it's not going to work very well if you've got an office, like a team of ten, nine of them are working at home and the one person that wants to be office. They're still in the office, but they're by themselves. So it it's flawed. But I and again we're we're broadly kind of sweeping across that businesses can hype not every business can be hybrid. Some businesses need to actually phys you need to actually physically be there. You know, so it's not like it's a it's anything it's not like a right one size fits all. When it comes to that. But yeah, I mean, me, personally my story, I've worked in that environment of being in a team, being in a studio. great. I mean, from the point of view of I've got this idea, what do you think? And that immediate, can I just bounce this idea off you? Is fantastic. The politics, no. You know what I mean? The the the kind of Having to speak to people when you don't want to and and and being part of a team and all that sort of yeah, I didn't like that. When Flux started up, I always worked remotely. So I've remote worked remotely. I've run the business remotely from day one before remote working was a thing. So when lockdown happened, I didn't know what all the fuss was about, because I've been doing it for a while. For I worked with a business partner, so I had still had access to what do you think of this and what do you think of that? When he left, yeah. I must admit there was a bit a shift of I probably started doing more networking. I probably s made more of a conscious effort to go out and do things and and contact people. probably 'cause that need of I can't bounce an idea with myself. I can't. And I think that's where it kinda comes from. So yeah, I mean it's I ca I I I don't think I mean, I've never had staff. You have Andy, so better glant to assist but what do you want from your staff, I guess, is like, you know, would I be happy and trust them that they're working? And I guess it's trust. Are they doing the job? And I always had the my frame of mind is as long as the job gets done to to the level that that the customer's happy with and and the business is happy with, does it matter where, when and how?
speaker-0: Yeah. And and I think more businesses probably need to go to that output dri output driven model because I always found that when we were being forced back into an office space. I mean I I was quite happy because I lived local and I enjoyed being amongst the team. It's probably the only thing I miss about not working in in employment. But a lot of the guys didn't. And it was for me, I used to say to the MD, you have to manage on the output. The the whole thing's changed now. Rather than creating an experience where people want to come to work, the reality is some people, no matter what experience you create, just prefer to be at home, whether it's it fits in better with their lifestyle, whatever it might be. So that's exact it's rather than fighting good people, you need to go to managing on the output and say, Okay, you don't want to be part of part of the office culture. We no matter what we do as part of an experience in the office, it it still doesn't fit for you. And that's cool. But We need to then manage on the output. So for example, it could be that rather than coming to me with a load of excuses as to why something hasn't been done, and me physically being able to see what's gone on because you're in the office and almost having a little bit of compassion for that situation, if you're at home and you're insisting that you work from home because it's better for you and the work doesn't get done, I can't. see any of those things that you're telling me have happened. So actually there's gonna be a less compassion probably for that situation because we're managing your own output. It's just that's how it has to be managed.
speaker-1: It is. And it's not about one side getting all the owner. Because if you work for someone then you you're you're employed by them. So, you know, you're contractually obliged to there's certain rules that you kinda need to follow. So it's not a case of well, I want to work at home that maybe 'cause you want it. It's maybe not kinda down to you. But on the other hand is you could come in for eight hours a day, sit there, be absolutely miserable and not produce a bloody thing. I mean, but you're in the office, so there's tick the box. Now, yeah, you're gonna be seeing your output. It it's gonna it's gonna be it's gonna affect that. So it's again like if the outboot drops, it's always like, well, why? Let's look at why this is dropping. And is remote working, using digital, using technology it can help that. It shouldn't just be dismissed because, well, I can't see you, so I don't know you're working. Now they could work from home, yes. They've got to be contactable between certain hours, business hours, if that's kind of part of their job. But if they work at any hour, as long as the work's getting done, and I say to the level that it needs to be not just churning out, then I don't really see an issue. Now that's but based on my industry and I know di lots of different industries are going to be different. But yeah, I mean I don't think it's it's it's it's it's it's one or the other. But again, we're coming back to where we started the conversation, that choice and control and what do you need to get out of the experience. I think everybody deserves to be happy in what they do. in in in in and have happiness in their life, you know, and your work plays a massive part. Let's face it, a huge percentage of your life. If you're not happy in that, a change has to be made. You know what I mean? And you get to choose that. And I know I might sound flippant, but you do. You do. If you it's if it's affecting your your your health, both physical and mental, you have to change that. You have to. You know what I mean? And a lot of people in pressure, but I've got money's got to come in, I've got to provide, I've got to do this. Great, fantastic. But if you drop down tomorrow, where does that leave the people that you're priming for? So digital shouldn't be seen as all it's it's a you know it's one or the other. It should be seen as is it a tool like anything, is it a tool to be used to enhance an experience rather than replace it? Yeah. you know, and not and not to be dismissed out of hand because it's evil.
speaker-0: I think that's a really good place to to to end that one, mate. I think it's and you've summed it up perfectly, really. It's not an a one or the other. It's a bit more of an integration. Digital, it lets integrate digital in the scenario of community start there, which provides many, many more people with access to a community that can help and support. If then certain members of that community decide they want to take it to in person, they've got a much easier route to access that. type of t of situation. So again, it's a tool that's aiding that that in-person community. let us know what you think in the comments. Have digital communities been a big thing in your life? Have they replaced personal communities, personal third places, as we've titled this this episode? Yeah. Do you prefer digital? Do you prefer working from home? Do you prefer working in the office? Let us know your thoughts. And then lastly, if you've got Any suggestions on topics that you'd like Mark and I to discuss on this podcast, then please drop those in the comments as well and we'll be happy to add those to the list. For now, we're off to record the next episode, so we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
speaker-1: Cheers, guys.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean that's it. Yeah, I'm it's probably as far away from Australia as you could possibly get.
speaker-0: So we it so just to just to address that, we we it wasn't our story, it was something that Mark had read.
speaker-1: No, actually I heard it on the BBC radio. So BBC Radio 2, you know, the Jeremy Vine show. so yeah. I mean, yeah, just just secondhand information, but I think it was more less the story, more the point of the story. Yeah. As yeah, and what we got into in that episode, and it's worth checking out about how a an AI will just keep trying to do its task. But yeah, wow. There
speaker-0: There you go.
speaker-1: you go, the world. Well,
speaker-0: What happened was we I don't I've never expected any of these episodes or this pod this podcast for us, for the people listening, is not about becoming number one in the podcast charts. No. This is this podcast is about probably a handful of people that actually get some sort of value out out of listening to two middle aged blokes banging on. But also about creating little snippets of content that Mark and I can use for our business and it's organic, it's conversational, it's the sort of stuff hopefully people relate to, and that's the goal. It's not to be the number one podcast in the world. So when I saw on TikTok after not being on there for a few days that this reel, this forty second reel had got a hundred and thirty thousand views, I thought, what the hell has been said here? Like yeah, and it that just shows you how lucky it is 'cause most of the reels get about five hundred views if you're lucky.
speaker-1: Well, there we go.
speaker-0: Potluck. It's potluck. So, third places. I did have to ask Claude what third places meant, 'cause I d really didn't understand it. And then it when he when c my god, I've just said he. When it when it came back, this is a slippery slope mark.
speaker-1: that's it you're you're screwed. That's it it's got ya.
speaker-0: When it came back with what it was, places, pubs, bars, you know, different things, it made sense. But the topic is and this is real this is a real topic for debate, I think, can or are digital communities of which I've tried to start on a couple of occasions unsuccessfully, are they replacing these real life third places that perhaps you and I grew up with?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I like you say, d we'd we're going into this not knowing what third place actually was only third place I remember was what I got on sports day at school. And I was lucky and I was I was lucky no, last place. I know, I know. I know. I dreamt of third place.
speaker-0: When you were racing three.
speaker-1: Five. Two. Yeah, and I got third place. but yeah, no, I mean yeah, interesting. Interesting. The the the third place that that place is where you go. so I guess you know, doing our research that we did, first place is home, second place is work, and third place is yeah, places like the pub and what have you, places that you go With th th but it's unplanned. That's not part of a a thing. So yeah, is digital kind of threatening that? I d yeah, I mean I guess digital platforms, digital communities are always gonna be, you know, seen as more of a threat than an alternative, potentially. I think there's just that whole that whole kind of feeling around digital. And I am we touched this on the previous episodes, it's it's not evil. It's not bad, but things that have that kind of that are called digital or online or anything like that, they're always seen as untrustworthy or not there's not such a deep connection. There's not that personal contact with that. So but convenience as well, I think plays a massive part in it. That it's easier to jump online or sit these days on your city with your phone and jump on a WhatsApp group or or whatever the platform is. Do you think that's a great
speaker-0: Do you think there's a laziness in because there's a fine line, isn't there, between convenience and laziness? And I often look at it and think and and look at how often I make the effort to see people in person. Yeah. And it's considerably less than it would have been ten years ago. and and I often look and think, is that me being lazy or is that me just adapting to the opportunities that are that are there? But then I I'll often sit back and go, but when I do see people, I I come away with a real sense of satisfaction that we've been in the same room, we've had that physical connection, we've r had a real laugh about different things. But would I still get that same sense of satisfaction that I get today? Because I don't do it that much if I was doing it more regularly, or would it just be normal life?
speaker-1: Dang my good great point. If you're doing something all the time, then how special does it become? That is it is it better to just have these things as as events or, you know, something that you make an effort to do and get more reward from? Yeah, I don't know if it it maybe it's it's convenience laziness. Is part of it guilt as well? Are you ticking a box saying, Well, I've checked in and that's enough? You know, rather than phone someone, message them, you know I mean, because it's easier and it's like, well, at least I've I've Communicated, at least I've got in contact, I've done my part. Yeah. It's an interesting one. It's a really interesting one. One of the
speaker-0: One of the areas we want to discuss and and I guess explore on this episode is the the whole tensions around online communities versus in-person communities. Because the reality is the the digital communities that we form, whether it's social media, whether it's group calls, whatever, whether ones that we we start, we actually choose who who forms those communities. We actually surround ourselves with the people that we want to be around. Whereas in real life in some of those third places, we don't. Actually what's happened since COVID is that a lot of people have come out saying, I actually don't like being in those busy environments anymore. I I I find them too chaotic. Certain environments people annoy me. I'd rather just choose my small sections and and that's why digital suits me. And so is that is has that become a challenge now for people? The the the the fact that they can't choose their Real life communities.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean that's it. Now it's one of these things now you've been given a chance to choose that you can create these experiences, create curate these these third places. Yeah, that's good that's that's that's powerful. That you can you can but then is part of the appeal of these third places, is why we get so much from them is spontaneity, is that you don't know who's gonna walk in. You don't know Who's gonna be there at a given time? Yes, you choose to go to that place for whatever reason, but you have no control over who gets in and out of that and who you're gonna kinda bump into. so yeah, does it make does the on the digital platform do you is is there is there a need to create that? Do you have to work harder to have that? Or yeah, is having control of who you're spending time with, you know, more important? I guess that's the question we're what we're kinda asking, yeah. And absolutely, certainly out out of coming out of the back of of of lockdown where people places are too busy, you know, or you felt that it was too busy because you're so used to, you know, having space and not being in contact with people all of a sudden. I mean I I even before then I I get quite anxious if somewhere's very, very crowded, you know. mild claustrophobia, but it's just more If there's too much people, it's just it's it's n it's not pleasant. I don't go to life gigs because of that reason. I just don't like big crowds of people. but yeah, that control is it a control thing that people can I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean I quite like spontaneity. Don't get me wrong, I c I quite like meeting new people. I quite like different conversations. I quite like someone's point of view coming in that I wouldn't didn't ask for and then completely changing the way I think about something or sparking off some a conversation that you never knew. I mean that's the art of conversation, isn't it? It just it's it's not prescripted. It's a stream of consciousness.
speaker-0: And I get you on the the the busy environment scene. There's I don't go to live gigs for exactly the same reason. there's there's nothing about a live gig with fifty thousand people all crammed into a stadium. I I've I've been to watch a few football matches. You know, as a football fan, I've been to watch a lot of matches over the years and come away thinking never again because of the amount of people all cramming into a a a a relatively small space and the chaos of it. and I've had some terrible experiences with opposition fans and stuff like that, where I guess I wasn't really playing the the game of a football fan with public transport situations and punches in the back of the head and all that sort of stuff. So I I've definitely avoided avoided that in the main. Another point that I think is really, really important to raise is about people getting left out. And I think this is something that's come about a lot more in the last few years. Digital communities can help people who feel isolated, disabled, they're in rural environments, they can't necessarily get to those in-person situations. and it can it can do a lot of good for those for those communities of people that that don't have that access. and that I guess that would be a a massive tick in the in the in the pro box for digital communities versus ones in real life, wouldn't it?
speaker-1: yeah, absolutely. And again, as we as we discovered and we're only in episode three, that there's not it's not good or bad. You know what I mean? There's there's I guess it comes on what do you want to get from the experience? What do you what are you trying to get from it? And absolutely if you're not able for whatever reason, and many reasons why you can't physically get somewhere, then absolutely, you know what I mean, what should you do? Just sit there and not talk to anyone and be completely alone or utilize these things. I guess we all got a taste of that during lockdown. I know we mentioned lockdown a lot, but I mean it's I mean in our generation it's probably one of the biggest things to happen, you know, on a global scale. But I think we all got that sense of we're all used to I can just nip out. I can just go and talk to someone and then all of a sudden that's taken away from it. Slight answer watched a movie at the weekend can't for life of remember what the name of it is. It'll come back to me. But it's about it it it's very much you know, very much lockdown vibes and it was definitely it definitely resonated. But it's a it's about people that are trapped in their house. Every house is locked in, they can't get out. They can't physically open the door, so they're stuck in their house. And I think that I won't spoil anything, but it's over the course of like five years. They can't get out, so they've got to live within their their houses and what can affect that that hasn't it. it's amazing what you what you can take for granted until it's taken away. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, we've got to adapt. Now, there is a question with you know you could a hypothetical question, if lockdown ever happened, would digital platforms be so popular? Probably would, because technology's always advancing. But yeah, we can't just go that's good, that's bad. I think it plays its part. But again, choice as well comes into it, control. It's you you know Maybe you don't have a choice and that's the only, you know, option you have that you have to choose that. yeah, again, it just comes down to what what you want to get from the experience, I think. What what what do you want to get out of it? Is it just contact? Isn't not to feel lonely or isolated? Do you need information? Do you yeah, I mean.
speaker-0: I I think there's an there's another thing to look at as well that's potentially goes perhaps not in favour necessarily of the digital communities, and that is that they they come up, they pop up and down all the time, don't they? And I think it's so easy now to start a digital community because it's the buzzword and everyone feels like they want to start one, especially if it's a paid community. A lot of people are using it as a revenue stream on the side of their businesses. And but you can You and I I've I've been guilty of this. You can underestimate the importance of that community to the people that join it. And then all of a sudden the person that runs it, who doesn't really understand the value that it has to those individuals, can just close it like that because it doesn't fit within what they have going on at the time, or it doesn't fit their business model, or they've just grown out of love with it. And that it's then That that person's no longer got access to those people within that community. Whereas a coffee shop or a pub or a bar, it it's a it's a di that the chances are they're always gonna be there. So even if one or two people drop from that that personal community, you're still gonna have others in there. You can still feed others into that community because that's how it works. But with a digital one, once the owner decides I'm shutting that off, you're done.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean well again it comes back to ca that control or not knowing the value in it and what what you know what people experience why why are people deciding to join that. Again we're coming back to choice. It all seems to be coming back to that. one person's choice affects a whole community when it's digital because it's digital seen as easy, convenient, it's you know and like you say, people are are it's easy to set up, it's easy to kinda get not easy to grow, don't get me wrong. You know, but yeah, if somebody just decides that's not working anymore, they're not taking into consideration, well, what impact is that having on like you say, they shut it down, that's everybody out. Whereas physical third places, yeah, a couple of people might stop going or or or not turn up, but it doesn't really change what you get from it. yeah, that's definitely I'll definitely put that in the con section of yeah, just the just the The nature of it is digital can be switched off. I think it's that. A physical place can't be switched off. Digital can. For many reasons. It might be th the the the person who runs it decides not, like we said. It could be technical problems. It could be, you know, any number of things. Technology isn't infallible. You know what I mean? So yeah, that's again, it's all coming back to control and in in in choice. It's digital, do you have It's like you've got more control.
speaker-0: You're you're part of a couple of digital communities, aren't you?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Through networking and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm part of that. For for for the for the business. Now they go beyond the realms of just online meetings or or and and some of them do a mix of in person as well. although the ones that I'm part of that are down south, I d I don't get a chance to go to those in person. And they spread out onto WhatsApp groups and other kind of platforms and stuff as well. I don't tend to do them because I don't do WhatsApp. As I've I've stated before. But and that's just a choice. That's just me choosing not to do that because yeah, I don't not have to have time. It's just I know I myself I would become lost and it'd be a rabbit hole that I would just kind of disappear. So that's me choosing not to. But I say that's a valuable aspect for certainly from me as a business owner working on my own remotely, that I'm choosing to do that to have contact to grow a network, another name for a community. but it's more than that. I think it's more than just from a business point of view. It's I want to speak to someone you know I've got ideas in my head that I need to to release, I need to get out, I need to bounce those off a s another human being. Does it matter if that's physical or digital? I don't really know.
speaker-0: I've found I've found that a lot of the the two communities that I started, one of them's still active, but it it's relatively small. But I've found that and people have told me this before about communities they've been in, they start digital because that's a great way of getting the ball rolling because of the platforms that we have access to. But very often, a lot of the people that join those communities join them probably because they feel quite alone, quite isolated, quite lonely, especially if they're working alone, like like you and I do a lot of the time. We feel that we lack that connection that perhaps we used to have. But what happens is those digital communities then certain people within them try and push them to real life. So they start in one way, but they evolve and that then gives you the option. You've got the digital community for the people that want it to just stay as that. But then you've got the option to branch out and obviously meet and cement certain relationships within that community in real life. So maybe the whole digital thing, it's not a replacement, it's an easier route to entry.
speaker-1: Yes. That's a great way of looking at it. yeah, easier to see, yeah, yeah, easier to get involved for whatever reason, meaning you feel more comfortable. Again, touching on something we touched on in in in previous episodes is that it's a bit easier to to be yourself, to be when they're you've got that kind of shield of a of a screen. and then when you go to meet them, you already know them. You've kind of you've done that first getting to know you stage. without the kind of awkwardness of walking a room full of people you don't know. I'm one of these weirdos that quite likes doing that. I quite like going out a room full of people I don't know. I mean yeah I like to make an entrance. this is one of the tamer ones as well. but yeah but I can see how that would be appealing to get to know someone on your I guess on your terms I kinda come back to control and choice. You're choosing how You do it and does digital allow you a bit more control over that process before physical? So is it again, a balance? Is not one's better than the other, but one can enhance the other? That yeah, you're absolutely right. Digital communities tend to go right when we inevitably they'll all evolve into an in person meetup. Most of them do.
speaker-0: Do you know what, mate, as well? We i we talk about third places. Let me touch on second place for a minute, which is work. So when and and this all links in because when COVID kicked in, loads of people just in the industry we were in, we were working in an office, it was literally one day we were all there, the next day, bang, we were at home. And and that happened in what the March of twenty twenty? And we didn't come back. Well, officially we weren't allowed to come back until the end of July the following year. So most people had had about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen months, whatever it was, working at home, getting used to that type of work. Now for years before, those people had all worked in an environment that if you love the hustle and bustle of a busy office, you go, Well, it's lovely, yeah. Why would anyone not want this? Probably 50% of the people I worked with in at the time that actually it transpires hated that environment. They were less productive, they hated being listened to by their colleagues if they were on calls, they hated the feeling of being watched all the time. And yeah, the odd one or two knew that they were being watched because they were taking the piss. But most of them were really hard workers. So while it was And even now I think people really struggle with understanding that that that notion that people some people can be more productive, left alone, in their digital silo, if you like, not surrounded by people, not having to come to the office. And it's a really difficult thing for business owners, CEOs, people that run big teams to kind of understand because they just want people in, don't they? They just want people together because it's their perception is Surely you're better together. But not everyone is.
speaker-1: No. No, I mean not everybody works or plays well together and and works as works as a team. Like I say, 'cause you're dealing with when you're a group of people in office, you're dealing with politics as well. It's not just about the work. You know, there's there's the whole game that you play when you're in a a team like that and different departments, the them and us attitude and things like that. So yeah, removing yourself from that, you can be more productive. But yeah, like you say, the flip side of that is people do thrive in that environment. They need that input, they need that stimulus and need that having a chat while they're making a coffee to to do their work. They need that that constant kind of contact. They they they don't want to feel like it's all on them and and they're all you know they're doing it alone. They need to feel we're all part of a team. We're all in it together. yeah, I mean it was interesting. It definitely opened up working remotely opened up a massive discussion when we're still carrying on now today. About the hybrid working and and all that. and what's good, what's bad, what's the best way of doing it. Again, we're coming down to choice of what works best for you. And I think is selling business and employers, if you employ staff, is again, what's going to help them get be most productive, what's going to help them enjoy their work and do the best that they can. If that's working at home, let them work at home. If that's working, in an office, then let them work in the office. You know what I mean? I mean it's not going to work very well if you've got an office, like a team of ten, nine of them are working at home and the one person that wants to be office. They're still in the office, but they're by themselves. So it it's flawed. But I and again we're we're broadly kind of sweeping across that businesses can hype not every business can be hybrid. Some businesses need to actually phys you need to actually physically be there. You know, so it's not like it's a it's anything it's not like a right one size fits all. When it comes to that. But yeah, I mean, me, personally my story, I've worked in that environment of being in a team, being in a studio. great. I mean, from the point of view of I've got this idea, what do you think? And that immediate, can I just bounce this idea off you? Is fantastic. The politics, no. You know what I mean? The the the kind of Having to speak to people when you don't want to and and and being part of a team and all that sort of yeah, I didn't like that. When Flux started up, I always worked remotely. So I've remote worked remotely. I've run the business remotely from day one before remote working was a thing. So when lockdown happened, I didn't know what all the fuss was about, because I've been doing it for a while. For I worked with a business partner, so I had still had access to what do you think of this and what do you think of that? When he left, yeah. I must admit there was a bit a shift of I probably started doing more networking. I probably s made more of a conscious effort to go out and do things and and contact people. probably 'cause that need of I can't bounce an idea with myself. I can't. And I think that's where it kinda comes from. So yeah, I mean it's I ca I I I don't think I mean, I've never had staff. You have Andy, so better glant to assist but what do you want from your staff, I guess, is like, you know, would I be happy and trust them that they're working? And I guess it's trust. Are they doing the job? And I always had the my frame of mind is as long as the job gets done to to the level that that the customer's happy with and and the business is happy with, does it matter where, when and how?
speaker-0: Yeah. And and I think more businesses probably need to go to that output dri output driven model because I always found that when we were being forced back into an office space. I mean I I was quite happy because I lived local and I enjoyed being amongst the team. It's probably the only thing I miss about not working in in employment. But a lot of the guys didn't. And it was for me, I used to say to the MD, you have to manage on the output. The the whole thing's changed now. Rather than creating an experience where people want to come to work, the reality is some people, no matter what experience you create, just prefer to be at home, whether it's it fits in better with their lifestyle, whatever it might be. So that's exact it's rather than fighting good people, you need to go to managing on the output and say, Okay, you don't want to be part of part of the office culture. We no matter what we do as part of an experience in the office, it it still doesn't fit for you. And that's cool. But We need to then manage on the output. So for example, it could be that rather than coming to me with a load of excuses as to why something hasn't been done, and me physically being able to see what's gone on because you're in the office and almost having a little bit of compassion for that situation, if you're at home and you're insisting that you work from home because it's better for you and the work doesn't get done, I can't. see any of those things that you're telling me have happened. So actually there's gonna be a less compassion probably for that situation because we're managing your own output. It's just that's how it has to be managed.
speaker-1: It is. And it's not about one side getting all the owner. Because if you work for someone then you you're you're employed by them. So, you know, you're contractually obliged to there's certain rules that you kinda need to follow. So it's not a case of well, I want to work at home that maybe 'cause you want it. It's maybe not kinda down to you. But on the other hand is you could come in for eight hours a day, sit there, be absolutely miserable and not produce a bloody thing. I mean, but you're in the office, so there's tick the box. Now, yeah, you're gonna be seeing your output. It it's gonna it's gonna be it's gonna affect that. So it's again like if the outboot drops, it's always like, well, why? Let's look at why this is dropping. And is remote working, using digital, using technology it can help that. It shouldn't just be dismissed because, well, I can't see you, so I don't know you're working. Now they could work from home, yes. They've got to be contactable between certain hours, business hours, if that's kind of part of their job. But if they work at any hour, as long as the work's getting done, and I say to the level that it needs to be not just churning out, then I don't really see an issue. Now that's but based on my industry and I know di lots of different industries are going to be different. But yeah, I mean I don't think it's it's it's it's it's it's one or the other. But again, we're coming back to where we started the conversation, that choice and control and what do you need to get out of the experience. I think everybody deserves to be happy in what they do. in in in in and have happiness in their life, you know, and your work plays a massive part. Let's face it, a huge percentage of your life. If you're not happy in that, a change has to be made. You know what I mean? And you get to choose that. And I know I might sound flippant, but you do. You do. If you it's if it's affecting your your your health, both physical and mental, you have to change that. You have to. You know what I mean? And a lot of people in pressure, but I've got money's got to come in, I've got to provide, I've got to do this. Great, fantastic. But if you drop down tomorrow, where does that leave the people that you're priming for? So digital shouldn't be seen as all it's it's a you know it's one or the other. It should be seen as is it a tool like anything, is it a tool to be used to enhance an experience rather than replace it? Yeah. you know, and not and not to be dismissed out of hand because it's evil.
speaker-0: I think that's a really good place to to to end that one, mate. I think it's and you've summed it up perfectly, really. It's not an a one or the other. It's a bit more of an integration. Digital, it lets integrate digital in the scenario of community start there, which provides many, many more people with access to a community that can help and support. If then certain members of that community decide they want to take it to in person, they've got a much easier route to access that. type of t of situation. So again, it's a tool that's aiding that that in-person community. let us know what you think in the comments. Have digital communities been a big thing in your life? Have they replaced personal communities, personal third places, as we've titled this this episode? Yeah. Do you prefer digital? Do you prefer working from home? Do you prefer working in the office? Let us know your thoughts. And then lastly, if you've got Any suggestions on topics that you'd like Mark and I to discuss on this podcast, then please drop those in the comments as well and we'll be happy to add those to the list. For now, we're off to record the next episode, so we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
speaker-1: Cheers, guys.
