GCCW Ep Kelsey F
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[00:00:00]
Hello, hello, everybody. We are back live and today we have, another amazing special guest, but I'm also a guest. We are doing a joint recording crystalware with get clear and my new website, the well defined woman and Kelsey foremost.
Woohoo! That's me, Kelsey Foremost, founder of Magic Words Copywriting, and I'm so, so happy to be talking to Crystal again. We are both repeat guests on each other's podcasts. We always have so much to talk about, especially about being a woman in the business world. And I'm just so excited to talk to you today.
Yes. So what's even more interesting. And I love is, I always have like a plan, but people ask me, How do you fit in doing a podcast with your job and your other, responsibilities, but I actually don't plan that much. I don't like script anything. I don't have anything preplanned, but especially today [00:01:00] we did not have anything majorly outlined to talk about.
We were just going to go by the seat of our pants and figure out what works and what has been on our minds.
Yeah, which I actually think is a really cool place to be in of just being open and honest about this is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm seeing in the, you know, the market at large. This is what I'm seeing working, what I'm seeing doesn't. And I think. The reason that it is becoming more and more common, thank God, to have conversations like this, where they aren't superscripted, is because I think people are kind of burnt out on the hyper curated, scripted, feeling.
I think people are craving more genuine communication, and conversations like this are a part of that.
Yeah, absolutely. And so to kind of let you guys in behind the [00:02:00] scenes on what we were talking about. you know, I've had a career investment business evolution. So has Kelsey. And we were really talking about how hard it is for a certain section of women to like, just have their business and career, not, I don't want to say autopilot, like, I don't know if that's the right word, but just kind of coast, you know, coast along, you kind of turn it on at nine and you're off at five.
Yeah. And how, if that's you, if you're a person that struggles with that, you really need to understand where are you in your life, what is going on with you and make choices around what's going to best serve you. Right. And I know that this kind of happened with me when I was deciding how I was going to progress forward after selling my business and what I wanted to do.
And the opportunities I had coming my way, where I had a job opportunity that was going to be a huge Salary, but I really recognize that right now in my life. [00:03:00] I needed flexibility. I needed to, do things with my family, do things with my podcast and other things that are like passion interests.
and that going into that job was going to push me over the edge. Like I was going to just be too type a too much in to how am I assessing myself? How am I performing? What do I need to do? How do I need to be there for a team? and it's really hard for me to moderate that. have you experienced that before to Kelsey?
Oh my gosh, completely. I think everybody can identify with that feeling of, do I stay on this train? Or do I, like, both are scary in their own way. Like, do I stay on the train? And. You know, starting a new job with a higher salary, that is a very certain kind of pressure, but that doesn't minimize the pressure that you can feel getting off the train into the wild, [00:04:00] scary unknown where you are your own boss and you give yourself permission to go after some passion projects and the pressure that comes with making those financially successful.
Like, both paths have an immense amount of pressure. They're just different kinds of pressure. And you are beholden to, on, on one hand, I think you're more beholden to external forces, external people. And on the other, you are more beholden to yourself and both can get tricky. And as Crystal said, the best, smartest thing that you can do is take a beat.
and really analyze what season of life am I in today, right now? What do I have the energy for? What do, what is going to support my life the best that it can in this moment?
Yeah. And, and when you say like, what do I have the energy for? [00:05:00] It's not even just that it's like, where do I want my energy to flow? Where do I need it to go to grow? Because where we focus is where things grow. And. You know, that is, I've just had such a like epiphany and these feelings going on with like, I I'm like, it's the new midlife crisis, right?
It's not like I want to go get a sports car and a hot blonde, babe. I want to figure out how to create a successful business, which in my, you know, meets my definition of success while also having time and energy for my family, for my children. And that is really, really hard to separate because I am super ambitious, but like, I also want.
to support my family in a way that is meaningful for them that is only at this season in life. Like it's going to end at one point. They are going to leave. So, I think [00:06:00] that that is really an interesting conversation, that I've been thinking about a lot. and I know that it's no matter what your home life looks like, a lot of people enter a season like that at some point.
And how do you handle it? Yeah. And so what has been coming up for you? Yeah. Yeah.
because I feel like you and I are on opposite sides of the exact same coin. So, I am in a place right now I'll give the listeners who don't know me a little bit of a quick background, so, I was an actress, a professional actress. successful, I was in Modern Family, New Girl, like in a movie with Zac Efron, like I wasn't You know, I was doing well.
I was making enough money living in Hollywood as an actress, but I was getting progressively more and more miserable. My mental health was really suffering the more and more successful that I got. And I took [00:07:00] a pause and I realized that what I loved about acting wasn't just telling a story, but rather.
Seeing someone else see themselves in a story and feel deeply seen. So, when I really got to the nugget of why I started that career, I kind of went back to square one and I was like, Okay, how do I get that feeling back? What will give me that same feeling? And long story short, I had a friend who was a copywriter for a very fancy, very famous person, Marie Forleo, if you've ever heard of her.
And when I saw What my friend's daily life was like writing copy for Marie. I was like, Oh my God, she's helping people who, feel alone, feel crazy, feel like, Oh my God, there's no way that I could ever build a business. And she's helping them feel. seen and empowered and excited and actually helping them [00:08:00] execute the thing.
And like, people are really building these businesses and building these brands and going for it. And it's working like what a cool way to show up for the world. And it got me interested in copywriting from the perspective of how do I help people feel less crazy, especially women. Because I think that so often we think like,You know, there's a million tabs open in our head.
It seems like other people are able to figure this out. Why can't I figure this out? I feel crazy, right? And the best copy to me, and if you don't know what copy is, it's just words that represent you, your brand or your business. The best copy holds your hand. Helps you feel calm and gives you clear guidance.
And so I built an entire company, magic words, copywriting, not only helping write, I didn't only write copy for other people. I teach [00:09:00] courses on how to learn to think like a copywriter. And that was where I was at for a handful of years at a very successful course called copy class. It's still open for enrollment.
Anybody can take it. It's evergreen. but there are, I think. 8, 000 people in that course, which is wild. And what happened was I was doing that at the same time that I had a traditional job and I burnt out big time at the end of 2022. And I. I just took a few months completely off of any kind of work. I was very privileged to be able to do that.
And I went back into just my business, Magic Words Copywriting, for about a year. And what ended up happening was so unexpected. There's so many different things to talk about here. But. The market has changed so much, people's needs have changed so much, [00:10:00] people's attention spans have changed so much, and our, like, political climate has changed so much in that, not to get too, you know, in the weeds of that, but I was having a really hard time with the practical aspects of running a business, namely getting health insurance.
And I have a partner who had just gone back to school and, I was the breadwinner. I am the breadwinner. And so I recently, all this to say, I had to make the decision. I had to do what Crystal did, which is to slow down, do the gut check of what do I need in this season? What does my family need in this season?
I don't have kids right now. But I am the breadwinner for my little family. And for this season, it made more sense for me to go back to a traditional job. That I'm really good at and I really like the work, but it's not my personal passion [00:11:00] project and boy, howdy, did I feel a lot of emotional, turmoil about that and like embarrassment, which I don't think many people talk about of like going back to traditional work from having been a full time entrepreneur.
But I think, you're right, Krystal, in that it's that pause to really ask yourself, what does support look like to me right now?
And just knowing that shifting, taking a monetary pause, Making a change does not mean that you are not successful or that there was some kind of failure going on there. There is so much more to it than that. And oftentimes to get to the success that we want to see, it's one step. forward, half a step back, three sets, ward, two steps back.
It's a progressive, [00:12:00] feet and, in my own passion project here, having had the podcast and working on other. endeavors, I call it my digital business. you know, trying to figure out what that looks like and how that's going to work has taken a big shift. is the podcast where I was hoping it would be in a year?
No. but I had realistic expectations too. And listen, people, the real truth, because I have historically worked in insurance, is that insurance is such a problem these days for entrepreneurs, especially it is really, really, really hard. And it's also something that I have thought about many times because I do have.
Three children also, so insurance is a big deal. and so, you know, I know that that's a hard decision and I'm really proud of you for moving forward. And not only that, but you found something that is like really in your lane and really interesting. Yeah.
but it doesn't
Yeah, I think, [00:13:00] right. And I think that that is, we already tell women they have to be everything and do everything and have it all and do it all perfectly. Right? So if we know that that is baked into us from a very young age, having that pause moment and being like, Transcribed Success is a moving target.
It can change from this month to next month, what that actually looks like. If success to you, listener, is I want half of my work day to be available for my children, then that's a really, really great thing to know. But if it's nebulous and this gray area where you're just kind of saying, I wish I had more time.
I don't really know what that would look like. Like actually defining. And writing down, I've found to be really helpful, like what does your [00:14:00] ideal week, your ideal day, your ideal month actually look like? Like giving yourself, what's it called? A SMART goal. It's
Yeah. I, I strategic,
attainable.
time banded,
Mm hmm. I forget the R. We're only missing
I'm never good at off the memory, but yes, smart goals. Absolutely.
Yeah. And, you know, that can be for your life as well as your work. And
an achievable goal. I mean, that's almost superfluous, right? Because most goals are achievable in my mind. Yes.
the way that I think about it is, okay, so smart is strategic. You are, you know, Making it with intention, right? There's intent behind it. Measurable. You can say, you can measure, I hit this goal or I got 75 percent of the way [00:15:00] there. Or, you know, it's like a number, like there's measurement available to you.
Achievable to me means like, you know, if you're starting from zero, is not achievable in my mind to then say, I'm going to have a million dollar business in six months, sure, maybe it's achievable, but it's not necessarily. Like grounded in reality, right? And there have actually been studies that show that if a goal is too lofty, that we actually just won't pursue it because our brain will be like, eh,
Because you don't think it's
it.
You don't think it's really possible for you. Yeah, so I guess that's why they have the A in achievable so that you're not just like putting something ridiculous out there. even though you can with the right time, but I think that's the thing that it's like within, you know, a quarter, a half a year, a year, you know, you're not making.
tenure goals in that way. That's more of like a life plan, a vision.[00:16:00]
Is R, what is R
What was our relevant, relevant, but some people call it realistic.
Okay.
So I guess there's different ways. So it could be actionable and realistic or achievable and
just like,
Pick your, pick your, pick your letters, people pick whatever you want, make it
works for you.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I think, you know, if I look back on my situation, if I had not. gone the way of getting a traditional job again, it would have only been out of like spite almost, or like shame of, or feeling like a failure for not having a hundred percent of my time be my copywriting business or my, you know, my courses.
That is so like, now that I'm four months into this [00:17:00] newer job. I can see, you know, hindsight's 20, 20. It is so not the case. What ended up happening was I ended up having this huge weight lifted off of my shoulders and, you know, concerning making money from having to have so many clients. And having to have so many students and doing all the marketing, everything that like, there's just so much on you as an entrepreneur in order to make the machine run.
Once that was off my shoulders, all of a sudden I had so much creative energy. I, had taken a break from recording my own podcast. I immediately felt like compelled to go back into podcasting and was having fun again.I had more fun posting on social media. Cause it wasn't like. My job anymore. So there were all these like yummy accidents that these side effects that came along with it.
And [00:18:00] I'm not saying that any one way is correct because that's never the case. I'm simply saying that when you make decisions strategically, based on what you need, what your family needs in a season, then you don't know the good stuff just as much as you don't know the challenges that are going to come your way.
And it's so easy to like. You know, make entrepreneurship this beautiful thing that everybody strives to have. But in reality, there are so many components to that. And I think about that with my tennis friend who is a social influencer. She was back in the old school blogging, and then was on Instagram early.
And, you know, she is like. I mean, for people that don't know her in real life, she is just such a like good ethical person. And I can see why people have stuck with her for so many years, but I've asked her before, like, what are you doing at the brand? What are you going to do next? And she's just like, this is what it [00:19:00] is.
This is what I do. And on the one hand I thought, but you could do so much more. And then having seen it and worked on it and started getting a feel for that, like more is not better. She has a really good way. Her day is set up. She knows what she knows. She has her routine set. she has, you know, the ability to take off.
She doesn't have to stress out about a bunch of stuff and her income is for what she wants. So that is where we have to draw the line. It kind of goes hand in hand with where are we in life? What is the season of life that like more is not always better and what is going to be enough where we can just take a breath, rest in it and say that this is good and this and having, you know, knowing what you're doing.
and that's a little bit of the problem for me. I feel like I always want a new, interesting project to work on and to keep things, sharp.
out to my ADHD [00:20:00] girlies.
Exactly. But in reality, having done something for one, two, three years, where you get in a bit of a routine, it may feel a little bit boring at times. It may feel a little bit mundane, but Like sometimes that's just what we need and that works for us.
And if you're busy in other places, you have other energy going, you know, it's just not more as always better. And so I, it's a constant conversation that I have with myself of like, what is enough, what is enough time? What is enough money? You know, what is enough energy to put out? but I think that's really hard.
And that has come up to me in this, this trend that I'm sure some of my friends are like, stop talking about this. The trad wife trend. I
girl, let's dig in.
am not on Tik Tok, you guys. I am not on Tik Tok. I only found out about this because I read an article and then I was like, rabbit hole. Here I go. Alice in [00:21:00] Wonderland on a wild goose chase of like, how did this trad wife trend come up?
Why are people hating it on, on it so much? So what do you know, Kelsey, and what was your immediate like gut reaction about it?
Oh my gosh. Okay. So anybody who has followed me for any length of time knows that being a feminist is a very big part of my identity. I remember being a little girl and my mom,my mom and my dad having like a mini fight. I was probably like four or five. And my dad said something to the effect of, not even thinking about it, he said something to the effect of, Oh, I hope you grow up and marry a doctor.
And my mom shushed him and goes, no, Ray, she's going to be the doctor. And so that was the kind of, environment that I grew up in very, very. Like women's rights pro feminism. So when I started seeing, first, when I started seeing the trend, I [00:22:00] saw it on Instagram. I also am not on TikTok. Too many things.
My brain can't have another
No.
Can't do it. Tried multiple times. Can't do it. Just acceptance. That's why.and so I saw it on Instagram and it First, I saw it as the homesteading trend, which was very much like slow living, making our own bread, growing our own garden of vegetables. And that absolutely appealed to me.
Like it scratched an itch where I was like, Oh, I think we're all really craving slowing down. We are really exhausted talking about AI. We are really exhausted talking about social media and all of the implications. Like we've been living online at this really fast pace. I think everyone, it's like a sigh of relief to see content where it's like, Oh, [00:23:00] remember board games.
Like, remember taking a walk with no headphones? Remember like all of these, you know, these things. And that's where it started. And then it morphed into something that I think is quite insidious, which is this trad wife, which if you don't know, stands for traditional wife. And to me, my gut reaction was, Oh, this is patriarchy in a different package where it's almost like it's feeding on that desire for that nostalgic desire to slow down.
And not feel the pressure of like winning, doing, earning, being, and like having more time in the home and kind of twisting it into [00:24:00] like women being sold that subservience. Or like being a household maid, for lack of a better word, is like sexy or like attractive versus like, why aren't we as a collective, why does it have to be gendered, like trad wife, there is no trad husband trend.
I find that really interesting. So those were my gut reactions was I think we all are craving being offline a little bit more and that's scratching an itch and yet it being twisted into this trad wife trend, like money being taken away in a way. There's a whole other thing that you can speak a lot better to.
I think Crystal around like money and earning and
Yeah. Well, I mean, the question in what you're saying, the question that has in my mind, because I agree with you, like the [00:25:00] aesthetic of what it is, is to me very clear why people would be attracted to this. Like type A, like I am the poster child for a type A, like gunner, ambitious, like go hard. I'm living in my masculine energy kind of girl and it's conflicting with the other side of me that wants to slow down, that wants to, take care of my family, that I've always been interested in like holistic cooking and making sure that we're having most of our meals at home.
And how can you do that all the time when you're working? So like the conflicts, and I could see why women like me. And other women in general would see this and be like, wow, this is amazing. It's very simplistic and getting back to the basics of life, which I am a huge believer in.
Yeah.
And then what you're saying in [00:26:00] the patriarchy piece of it, and how did the hashtag trad wives become hashtag trad wives?
Like, were people holding themselves out to that? Or was this like, the media and social media in general coming up with this? And putting an arbitrary meaning to it. And so when I was researching and I certainly, there were some women that spoke out about, feeling that their role was to support their husband and be at home doing homemaker things. But I have seen that a lot of the women that are kind of falling within this genre have not said anything to that degree, have not spoken about that. They are just going about what they're doing. they are just homemakers. That is what they're doing. And so if I was a homemaker, I would not be making, you know, cheez its from scratch.
Okay. I like to have home cooked meals, but my food is basic y'all. It is like, here are my roasted [00:27:00] carrots. Here is some salmon or some chicken. Okay. And often it is a Costco rotisserie chicken and I just pull it off the bone. And I mean, that is what it is.
my partner calls it kitchen sink chicken, where it's so good that you just can't wait to put it on a plate, you eat it over the kitchen sink.
I am telling y'all Costco chicken is that like when it is fresh and hot, I mean, my oldest son will just eat the skin. Which is
Mm hmm.
cause he's kind of picky on textures and he's like, yeah, I just want all the skin. So people are fighting over the skin of the chicken. So anyway, I, why would I spend five hours making a roasted chicken when I can get one from Costco for 5.
99? but so I, I have conflicting feelings about it. Right. I do think we have to, as a, in, as our culture in some way say that there is inherent value. For what women are doing in the home. And that [00:28:00] this is no judgment to other people. Cause I have been a working mother since I've had newborn children.
I went back to work with my first son was eight weeks old on my own choice. Mm
so this is no judgment, but like with all the technology out there, having kids come home, I was a latchkey kid. it, it's not, it doesn't feel safe for me. It does not feel safe for me to have my kids. have a watch thingy or be on social media or the ability to be on social media.
And I think it's harder to do that if you are not present. So for me there is a huge value these days. of a mom having the ability or choosing to give up, keeping up with the Joneses, having something new, whatever, to be a stay at home wife. And I do feel like we need to give women some support in that to feel that that is a value to feel not like I'm giving up all of this, but I'm gaining over here.
And so I see that this, I don't even want to call it a movement. It's not [00:29:00] this trend kind of. makes people feel better about that if that's their decision. you know, I don't have a joint bank account with my husband. So I, I can't speak to those other pieces. That feels very uncomfortable for me to be honest.
I mean, we were just talking about, should we get a joint bank account? Because like, we're trying to do new things with our money and like not knowing where the money is all going in different directions, like for practical reasons. But so I don't know that is uncomfortable. But on the other hand of it, I do see that if you want To be a stay at home wife and a homemaker, you have to have a certain trust and faith that your spouse is going to a support you and be, be a good person.
I mean, and hopefully you're making those choices when you're making the selection of who you're going to marry. so yeah, I don't think, too much of anything is a bad thing. Right. And so like going all [00:30:00] the way back to 1947 is not going to benefit anybody.Yeah. I think that that, okay, so if I may, I just want to speak to like a kind of a sneaky piece that I think is getting through this trend, right? Or defending the trend. Very clearly want to state unpaid domestic labor, which is raising children, homemaking, cooking, the mental load of motherhood.
We've talked about that, you know, I've talked about that so much on my podcast. I'm a really big advocate for fair play, if anyone has ever heard of that as a way of,at least acknowledging the unpaid labor, mental, emotional, and physical that women often do as homemakers, a hundred percent. there's not enough support for people who fall in that [00:31:00] demographic period.
Absolutely agree. And where I have a problem with the quote tradwife trend is the Trendiness, the aesthetic piece, the almost cosplay glorification of what it looks like to be an unpaid domestic laborer.
Yeah.
It is not, like, the reality of being unpaid domestic labor. does not look like a, you know, full blowout, fake eyelashes, sexy apron, making a roast chicken.
That's not real life. That's a character. And the danger in presenting that character as reality is that inevitably When unpaid domestic laborers don't quote unquote measure up to that [00:32:00] ideal, they will feel less than or like something's wrong with them or that their marriage isn't enough or there's a worth piece.
Like that's what I have an issue with glorifying something like a time when women couldn't open their own bank account, couldn't buy their own property. Like that wasn't that long ago. That was 1970. I want to say, not that long ago. So, and you know, when you think about when I think about what I've seen, the images that I've seen in relation to this quote, trad wife trend, it is a very Pleasantville, 1950s You know, welcome home, honey, here's your cocktail, mad men kind of thing, that is not the reality.
Yeah. I mean, first of
we have to separate like the trend from
yes.
desire for support for unpaid domestic
And for slowing down. I mean, I [00:33:00] think that is where it really starts with is like, you're cooking from home, you have a little garden, you are really getting back to nature. That does not mean, I mean, it's like, you know, my hair is like this. My aunt has a garden. She is literally the homesteading queen and she's gorgeous, but she doesn't wear makeup.
She wears jeans and a t shirt every day. She doesn't need makeup because her skin. It, I think she just turned 60 is like literally looks like ours. I'm not joking, Kelsey. If you saw her, you'd be like, that is not fair. And she has thick, gorgeous, still colored hair naturally. but she does not look like that by any stretch of the imagination, but it's this lifestyle that she has led for most of her life, which she was non traditional.
My uncle stayed at home for 10 years with my nephews and. It was a balance of, I mean, he did not do what most mothers would be doing [00:34:00] necessarily. He had his own way to deal with the kids and stuff, but he was doing, you know, the home load for the most part. And she was working and there was a balance in that.
And then they garden together and they had this like just slower, they lived, you know, outside of Austin on 20 acres. And it was just, you know, chill. And that I think is what is beautiful in it. And of course it's packaged up. And the reason we stop and look at it is because it's a beautiful aesthetic.
Right. And the colors are all right. And the outfits are right on, but yeah, I mean, those outfits are not even available at the store. Okay. Those are like custom pieces, people. So it's not based in reality. but I do think that what it symbolizes of like being more modest on in public is nice.if you choose not to be, that's fine too.
There's no rules against that, but it's just getting back to more traditional values, I guess. And that doesn't have to mean [00:35:00] that two people aren't working. And that doesn't have to mean that the wife is not making money from social media or something else. Right? Like that is what they're doing. And I think that's also kind of like the rub that some people have is that they're like, It's hypocritical, you know, that like, we're doing this traditional thing and we have these beliefs, but, Oh, by the way, I'm making a million dollars from all of my Amazon affiliate stuff.
I'm selling you this blender and look at my, special spoon. Or again, I'm not like some Betty homemaker, but, all those things that you can get aesthetically that they're selling to you. And I think that bothers a lot of people. for sure.
Mm hmm. Yeah. I will say, I have A different take than you, and this is why I love having conversations like this because both we can hold multiple perspectives, right? Like, I think that that is a really, a lost art, perhaps.
for [00:36:00] sure.
I will own that when I hear the phrase traditional values, my hackles go up, and here's why.
Traditional values to me, have a connotation of being, when you, when I hear tradition, it makes me think like of a time, a different time, a previous time, right? And traditional values to me. internal, you know, experience is, okay, that's probably mostly white Christian values that are not bad per se, but it does symbolize a time where women had fewer rights.
Women of color had more rights. Way fewer rights still do people of color had fewer rights. And so it really gives me pause when [00:37:00] I hear like getting back to traditional values. It just makes me really think like, okay, but can, can the person define what does traditional values mean to them? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And like, what is really the root of what we want to get back to? Because if you're saying like, getting back to nature, getting back to not being plugged in, getting out of the rat race, agree a thousand percent. Every human being would benefit from that. if we are saying we want to have more infrastructure that supports rest and time with your family, like, Yes.
A hundred percent behind that. But what I'm not behind is an, I believe, antiquated model where the man is the head of the household and the woman is more subservient. That I cannot get behind and, and never will.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I can definitely speak to what I think of a [00:38:00] traditional values and that's with having a caregiver at home. And it doesn't matter who it is. I mean, in my case, my caregiver was my nanny for the most part. I, I say a caregiver being somebody that is spending the majority of your time with the kids, like one
Mm hmm.
single person, it could be a grandparent, in certain cultures, it usually is a grandparent and both of the parents are working, which I would love and welcome.
So, but to me, it's like having one central kind of caregiver. And yes, being able to spend more time as a family, having more home cooked meals around a dinner table together. In my case, it's not the dinner table. The dinner table is like wasted. We have a breakfast table and we, and it only has four chairs and we pull up a bench.
Exactly. And, but we eat around together or, you know, we have breakfast together. Me and my husband stand up. [00:39:00] Usually my kids are at the bar. Somebody might be at the breakfast table, but we are centralized together for the majority of our meals because conversations happen that way. And then, yeah, to see that people have the opportunity and the emphasis to be more in nature, whether that's spending time at a park, because you live in a very congested city.
Or you're escaping to somewhere or you decide to move. I mean, I have friends that have done that, and love
hmm.
That's probably not for me, even though my parents are moving to our country and my sister has chosen to live there. She's only lived in the city for, I don't know, three or four years. And then she moved to the country, to our family property.
And that's where they live, you know, driving 45 minutes. miles down a, non paved road just to get to a paved road. So
That's how I grew
yeah,
That's how I grew up. And, you know, I, I grew up [00:40:00] 8 miles, 8 miles down an unpaved road, mostly, in Colorado. I split my time. And, we had no, Cell phone, we had no internet, we had no computer, we had no printer, we, it's amazing. I had to read books and play with my American Girl dolls and it was great.
It was a great childhood. I had my butt in the dirt and I loved it.
that
yes. And, and to be clear to where I think you're going is like, absolutely. I am always going to be a proponent that women can do anything that they want to do. I just don't like that now that I've started looking at thinking about, you That I feel that we are not, we're not telling women not to stay home. But we subtly are saying like, Oh, is that the, and I, and I think back to, I love my gynecologist. My OB GYN is amazing. But I remember one time she [00:41:00] doesn't have children and she said, I don't know when anybody with a upper level degree would ever quit work and stay home with their children. And at the time I thought, yeah, I don't either.
That's, I mean, I'm a lawyer. Why would I do that? but now I'm like, man, that's kind of a, that's kind of a shocking thing to say to somebody. Yeah, I mean, she did not care. She does not care. I mean, I love her. In fact, I recommended somebody to her and they were a big no. She was a big no for them. But, that to me is where I get and why maybe it's called I sympathize with the trad wife trend a little bit.
is, it's that I want people to see and feel like if that is what's in your heart, that is valued. You're valued to be a caregiver. That is so hard. It's so challenging. It's not all calm and quiet beauty like they're projecting. Okay, I promise if you've tried to [00:42:00] make donuts homemade with three boys, you will know that is not what's gonna end up on social media.
But I just feel like where we are in society in American culture We aren't I feel that the culture we are really pushing women to be more ambitious Which is great, but that's not for everybody, and it's not for everybody at every time of your life. So kind of to come full circle on our conversation on where you are in a season of life, and that's really where I've enjoyed kind of seeing that and seeing like how that seems peaceful, and how there are nice things about that, about cooking at home, being with your family more.
not worried about the outside world or having more, better, faster, richer. and I want for people, I want for women to really understand that it's okay to step back. And if you decide to be a homemaker, it's probably the hardest job in my opinion. So [00:43:00] kudos to you. It has a huge value and I want us to talk more.
about that being a special role and should be a prominent role in every society.
Absolutely. I read a, I read a study. I had somebody on my podcast recently, who's a business owner. She is a, website designer and she has two kids under two years old and was really struggling mental health wise. And also, kind of had this, and there's a podcast episode about it on find your magic on my podcast.
If you want to listen to it, it's Becca Reed. And, She was talking about how she had to find her happy medium. She realized that she thought that she wanted to be a hundred percent stay at home mom. And then once she lived the reality, she was like, no, I need my business to stay sane, but I don't want to Go 100 percent that way and have a, like a 24 seven nanny [00:44:00] either.
And her journey of like finding her happy medium. I think that is so important because what I would caution people against who maybe are feeling drawn towards that quote unquote trad wife thing. Don't make that yet another measuring stick. Like don't make making homemade donuts versus buying Krispy Kreme.
affect your sense of whether or not you are worthy of praise as a homemaker. Do you know what I mean?
Keeping your kids alive and fed is a feat. Okay. People. And so if you need to sit around for three hours in your pajamas and read books, smutty books, maybe, but that's for another conversation probably. But, if you want to do that, that's okay. And is because keeping people alive is draining. [00:45:00] And so I need more relaxation.
So I think that's really important for everybody. And I know we are going to run up on time because we are busy ladies that have other obligations. So I also wanted to say a shout out that you have an amazing new course out for chat GPT that will help people no matter if you're a copywriter or you're an ordinary person.
Honestly, I use chat GPT pretty frequently in my business, in my day life. For like the craziest things sometimes if my kids ask a question, I just use it So I think this is going to be a fantastic course for people and we will drop a link into the show notes for the course Yay
I, I am really excited about it. It's just meant to, again, like everything that I do, everything that I put out in the world, I really want it to be like a friend who was walking you through something and helping you feel less crazy. So, yeah. With this course, it is meant for normal non [00:46:00] techie people who have been curious about ChatGPT, who don't necessarily know how to use it, maybe who tried to watch some YouTube videos and were like, I don't know, I don't, I don't know.
This is for you. So as Crystal said, the link is in the show notes below. It's called how to use ChatGPT for normals.
Love it. That is a great great great title from an amazing copywriter and I My new website, the well defined woman. com is live and we will be populating content like multiple times a week for the next couple of weeks while we get it all going. and we have a fun freebie called your simplest path to a million dollars, to help women get comfortable Seeing a path for themselves, even on a moderate income of how you can build your nest egg and support yourself.
so we'll be sharing that information with everybody too. And I want everybody to keep [00:47:00] getting clear on your goals on what you want for your life. If it's because you want to be the CEO of a massive 500 million company. I love it. Want to support that. If you want to take a step back from a powerful job and be at stay at home mother, I am all for that too, because only you can define your life and what works for you.
And that is what the well defined woman is all about, is helping women thrive. Find their authentic voice to live their authentic and defined life. So
Love it.
this is so much fun and we will be doing it again. You guys, thank you for, you know, listening in for being a wonderful audience. And, Thanks again, Kelsey, for joining and I love our conversations every time.
Me too. Me too. Thanks for, thanks for getting in the ring with me. That was really fun and really cool and I really
and guys, we didn't plan it, but it came full circle anyway.
Yeah.
So it's great. Well, we will see you guys next time. Find your magic and keep getting [00:48:00] clear. Bye.
===
[00:00:00]
Hello, hello, everybody. We are back live and today we have, another amazing special guest, but I'm also a guest. We are doing a joint recording crystalware with get clear and my new website, the well defined woman and Kelsey foremost.
Woohoo! That's me, Kelsey Foremost, founder of Magic Words Copywriting, and I'm so, so happy to be talking to Crystal again. We are both repeat guests on each other's podcasts. We always have so much to talk about, especially about being a woman in the business world. And I'm just so excited to talk to you today.
Yes. So what's even more interesting. And I love is, I always have like a plan, but people ask me, How do you fit in doing a podcast with your job and your other, responsibilities, but I actually don't plan that much. I don't like script anything. I don't have anything preplanned, but especially today [00:01:00] we did not have anything majorly outlined to talk about.
We were just going to go by the seat of our pants and figure out what works and what has been on our minds.
Yeah, which I actually think is a really cool place to be in of just being open and honest about this is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm seeing in the, you know, the market at large. This is what I'm seeing working, what I'm seeing doesn't. And I think. The reason that it is becoming more and more common, thank God, to have conversations like this, where they aren't superscripted, is because I think people are kind of burnt out on the hyper curated, scripted, feeling.
I think people are craving more genuine communication, and conversations like this are a part of that.
Yeah, absolutely. And so to kind of let you guys in behind the [00:02:00] scenes on what we were talking about. you know, I've had a career investment business evolution. So has Kelsey. And we were really talking about how hard it is for a certain section of women to like, just have their business and career, not, I don't want to say autopilot, like, I don't know if that's the right word, but just kind of coast, you know, coast along, you kind of turn it on at nine and you're off at five.
Yeah. And how, if that's you, if you're a person that struggles with that, you really need to understand where are you in your life, what is going on with you and make choices around what's going to best serve you. Right. And I know that this kind of happened with me when I was deciding how I was going to progress forward after selling my business and what I wanted to do.
And the opportunities I had coming my way, where I had a job opportunity that was going to be a huge Salary, but I really recognize that right now in my life. [00:03:00] I needed flexibility. I needed to, do things with my family, do things with my podcast and other things that are like passion interests.
and that going into that job was going to push me over the edge. Like I was going to just be too type a too much in to how am I assessing myself? How am I performing? What do I need to do? How do I need to be there for a team? and it's really hard for me to moderate that. have you experienced that before to Kelsey?
Oh my gosh, completely. I think everybody can identify with that feeling of, do I stay on this train? Or do I, like, both are scary in their own way. Like, do I stay on the train? And. You know, starting a new job with a higher salary, that is a very certain kind of pressure, but that doesn't minimize the pressure that you can feel getting off the train into the wild, [00:04:00] scary unknown where you are your own boss and you give yourself permission to go after some passion projects and the pressure that comes with making those financially successful.
Like, both paths have an immense amount of pressure. They're just different kinds of pressure. And you are beholden to, on, on one hand, I think you're more beholden to external forces, external people. And on the other, you are more beholden to yourself and both can get tricky. And as Crystal said, the best, smartest thing that you can do is take a beat.
and really analyze what season of life am I in today, right now? What do I have the energy for? What do, what is going to support my life the best that it can in this moment?
Yeah. And, and when you say like, what do I have the energy for? [00:05:00] It's not even just that it's like, where do I want my energy to flow? Where do I need it to go to grow? Because where we focus is where things grow. And. You know, that is, I've just had such a like epiphany and these feelings going on with like, I I'm like, it's the new midlife crisis, right?
It's not like I want to go get a sports car and a hot blonde, babe. I want to figure out how to create a successful business, which in my, you know, meets my definition of success while also having time and energy for my family, for my children. And that is really, really hard to separate because I am super ambitious, but like, I also want.
to support my family in a way that is meaningful for them that is only at this season in life. Like it's going to end at one point. They are going to leave. So, I think [00:06:00] that that is really an interesting conversation, that I've been thinking about a lot. and I know that it's no matter what your home life looks like, a lot of people enter a season like that at some point.
And how do you handle it? Yeah. And so what has been coming up for you? Yeah. Yeah.
because I feel like you and I are on opposite sides of the exact same coin. So, I am in a place right now I'll give the listeners who don't know me a little bit of a quick background, so, I was an actress, a professional actress. successful, I was in Modern Family, New Girl, like in a movie with Zac Efron, like I wasn't You know, I was doing well.
I was making enough money living in Hollywood as an actress, but I was getting progressively more and more miserable. My mental health was really suffering the more and more successful that I got. And I took [00:07:00] a pause and I realized that what I loved about acting wasn't just telling a story, but rather.
Seeing someone else see themselves in a story and feel deeply seen. So, when I really got to the nugget of why I started that career, I kind of went back to square one and I was like, Okay, how do I get that feeling back? What will give me that same feeling? And long story short, I had a friend who was a copywriter for a very fancy, very famous person, Marie Forleo, if you've ever heard of her.
And when I saw What my friend's daily life was like writing copy for Marie. I was like, Oh my God, she's helping people who, feel alone, feel crazy, feel like, Oh my God, there's no way that I could ever build a business. And she's helping them feel. seen and empowered and excited and actually helping them [00:08:00] execute the thing.
And like, people are really building these businesses and building these brands and going for it. And it's working like what a cool way to show up for the world. And it got me interested in copywriting from the perspective of how do I help people feel less crazy, especially women. Because I think that so often we think like,You know, there's a million tabs open in our head.
It seems like other people are able to figure this out. Why can't I figure this out? I feel crazy, right? And the best copy to me, and if you don't know what copy is, it's just words that represent you, your brand or your business. The best copy holds your hand. Helps you feel calm and gives you clear guidance.
And so I built an entire company, magic words, copywriting, not only helping write, I didn't only write copy for other people. I teach [00:09:00] courses on how to learn to think like a copywriter. And that was where I was at for a handful of years at a very successful course called copy class. It's still open for enrollment.
Anybody can take it. It's evergreen. but there are, I think. 8, 000 people in that course, which is wild. And what happened was I was doing that at the same time that I had a traditional job and I burnt out big time at the end of 2022. And I. I just took a few months completely off of any kind of work. I was very privileged to be able to do that.
And I went back into just my business, Magic Words Copywriting, for about a year. And what ended up happening was so unexpected. There's so many different things to talk about here. But. The market has changed so much, people's needs have changed so much, [00:10:00] people's attention spans have changed so much, and our, like, political climate has changed so much in that, not to get too, you know, in the weeds of that, but I was having a really hard time with the practical aspects of running a business, namely getting health insurance.
And I have a partner who had just gone back to school and, I was the breadwinner. I am the breadwinner. And so I recently, all this to say, I had to make the decision. I had to do what Crystal did, which is to slow down, do the gut check of what do I need in this season? What does my family need in this season?
I don't have kids right now. But I am the breadwinner for my little family. And for this season, it made more sense for me to go back to a traditional job. That I'm really good at and I really like the work, but it's not my personal passion [00:11:00] project and boy, howdy, did I feel a lot of emotional, turmoil about that and like embarrassment, which I don't think many people talk about of like going back to traditional work from having been a full time entrepreneur.
But I think, you're right, Krystal, in that it's that pause to really ask yourself, what does support look like to me right now?
And just knowing that shifting, taking a monetary pause, Making a change does not mean that you are not successful or that there was some kind of failure going on there. There is so much more to it than that. And oftentimes to get to the success that we want to see, it's one step. forward, half a step back, three sets, ward, two steps back.
It's a progressive, [00:12:00] feet and, in my own passion project here, having had the podcast and working on other. endeavors, I call it my digital business. you know, trying to figure out what that looks like and how that's going to work has taken a big shift. is the podcast where I was hoping it would be in a year?
No. but I had realistic expectations too. And listen, people, the real truth, because I have historically worked in insurance, is that insurance is such a problem these days for entrepreneurs, especially it is really, really, really hard. And it's also something that I have thought about many times because I do have.
Three children also, so insurance is a big deal. and so, you know, I know that that's a hard decision and I'm really proud of you for moving forward. And not only that, but you found something that is like really in your lane and really interesting. Yeah.
but it doesn't
Yeah, I think, [00:13:00] right. And I think that that is, we already tell women they have to be everything and do everything and have it all and do it all perfectly. Right? So if we know that that is baked into us from a very young age, having that pause moment and being like, Transcribed Success is a moving target.
It can change from this month to next month, what that actually looks like. If success to you, listener, is I want half of my work day to be available for my children, then that's a really, really great thing to know. But if it's nebulous and this gray area where you're just kind of saying, I wish I had more time.
I don't really know what that would look like. Like actually defining. And writing down, I've found to be really helpful, like what does your [00:14:00] ideal week, your ideal day, your ideal month actually look like? Like giving yourself, what's it called? A SMART goal. It's
Yeah. I, I strategic,
attainable.
time banded,
Mm hmm. I forget the R. We're only missing
I'm never good at off the memory, but yes, smart goals. Absolutely.
Yeah. And, you know, that can be for your life as well as your work. And
an achievable goal. I mean, that's almost superfluous, right? Because most goals are achievable in my mind. Yes.
the way that I think about it is, okay, so smart is strategic. You are, you know, Making it with intention, right? There's intent behind it. Measurable. You can say, you can measure, I hit this goal or I got 75 percent of the way [00:15:00] there. Or, you know, it's like a number, like there's measurement available to you.
Achievable to me means like, you know, if you're starting from zero, is not achievable in my mind to then say, I'm going to have a million dollar business in six months, sure, maybe it's achievable, but it's not necessarily. Like grounded in reality, right? And there have actually been studies that show that if a goal is too lofty, that we actually just won't pursue it because our brain will be like, eh,
Because you don't think it's
it.
You don't think it's really possible for you. Yeah, so I guess that's why they have the A in achievable so that you're not just like putting something ridiculous out there. even though you can with the right time, but I think that's the thing that it's like within, you know, a quarter, a half a year, a year, you know, you're not making.
tenure goals in that way. That's more of like a life plan, a vision.[00:16:00]
Is R, what is R
What was our relevant, relevant, but some people call it realistic.
Okay.
So I guess there's different ways. So it could be actionable and realistic or achievable and
just like,
Pick your, pick your, pick your letters, people pick whatever you want, make it
works for you.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I think, you know, if I look back on my situation, if I had not. gone the way of getting a traditional job again, it would have only been out of like spite almost, or like shame of, or feeling like a failure for not having a hundred percent of my time be my copywriting business or my, you know, my courses.
That is so like, now that I'm four months into this [00:17:00] newer job. I can see, you know, hindsight's 20, 20. It is so not the case. What ended up happening was I ended up having this huge weight lifted off of my shoulders and, you know, concerning making money from having to have so many clients. And having to have so many students and doing all the marketing, everything that like, there's just so much on you as an entrepreneur in order to make the machine run.
Once that was off my shoulders, all of a sudden I had so much creative energy. I, had taken a break from recording my own podcast. I immediately felt like compelled to go back into podcasting and was having fun again.I had more fun posting on social media. Cause it wasn't like. My job anymore. So there were all these like yummy accidents that these side effects that came along with it.
And [00:18:00] I'm not saying that any one way is correct because that's never the case. I'm simply saying that when you make decisions strategically, based on what you need, what your family needs in a season, then you don't know the good stuff just as much as you don't know the challenges that are going to come your way.
And it's so easy to like. You know, make entrepreneurship this beautiful thing that everybody strives to have. But in reality, there are so many components to that. And I think about that with my tennis friend who is a social influencer. She was back in the old school blogging, and then was on Instagram early.
And, you know, she is like. I mean, for people that don't know her in real life, she is just such a like good ethical person. And I can see why people have stuck with her for so many years, but I've asked her before, like, what are you doing at the brand? What are you going to do next? And she's just like, this is what it [00:19:00] is.
This is what I do. And on the one hand I thought, but you could do so much more. And then having seen it and worked on it and started getting a feel for that, like more is not better. She has a really good way. Her day is set up. She knows what she knows. She has her routine set. she has, you know, the ability to take off.
She doesn't have to stress out about a bunch of stuff and her income is for what she wants. So that is where we have to draw the line. It kind of goes hand in hand with where are we in life? What is the season of life that like more is not always better and what is going to be enough where we can just take a breath, rest in it and say that this is good and this and having, you know, knowing what you're doing.
and that's a little bit of the problem for me. I feel like I always want a new, interesting project to work on and to keep things, sharp.
out to my ADHD [00:20:00] girlies.
Exactly. But in reality, having done something for one, two, three years, where you get in a bit of a routine, it may feel a little bit boring at times. It may feel a little bit mundane, but Like sometimes that's just what we need and that works for us.
And if you're busy in other places, you have other energy going, you know, it's just not more as always better. And so I, it's a constant conversation that I have with myself of like, what is enough, what is enough time? What is enough money? You know, what is enough energy to put out? but I think that's really hard.
And that has come up to me in this, this trend that I'm sure some of my friends are like, stop talking about this. The trad wife trend. I
girl, let's dig in.
am not on Tik Tok, you guys. I am not on Tik Tok. I only found out about this because I read an article and then I was like, rabbit hole. Here I go. Alice in [00:21:00] Wonderland on a wild goose chase of like, how did this trad wife trend come up?
Why are people hating it on, on it so much? So what do you know, Kelsey, and what was your immediate like gut reaction about it?
Oh my gosh. Okay. So anybody who has followed me for any length of time knows that being a feminist is a very big part of my identity. I remember being a little girl and my mom,my mom and my dad having like a mini fight. I was probably like four or five. And my dad said something to the effect of, not even thinking about it, he said something to the effect of, Oh, I hope you grow up and marry a doctor.
And my mom shushed him and goes, no, Ray, she's going to be the doctor. And so that was the kind of, environment that I grew up in very, very. Like women's rights pro feminism. So when I started seeing, first, when I started seeing the trend, I [00:22:00] saw it on Instagram. I also am not on TikTok. Too many things.
My brain can't have another
No.
Can't do it. Tried multiple times. Can't do it. Just acceptance. That's why.and so I saw it on Instagram and it First, I saw it as the homesteading trend, which was very much like slow living, making our own bread, growing our own garden of vegetables. And that absolutely appealed to me.
Like it scratched an itch where I was like, Oh, I think we're all really craving slowing down. We are really exhausted talking about AI. We are really exhausted talking about social media and all of the implications. Like we've been living online at this really fast pace. I think everyone, it's like a sigh of relief to see content where it's like, Oh, [00:23:00] remember board games.
Like, remember taking a walk with no headphones? Remember like all of these, you know, these things. And that's where it started. And then it morphed into something that I think is quite insidious, which is this trad wife, which if you don't know, stands for traditional wife. And to me, my gut reaction was, Oh, this is patriarchy in a different package where it's almost like it's feeding on that desire for that nostalgic desire to slow down.
And not feel the pressure of like winning, doing, earning, being, and like having more time in the home and kind of twisting it into [00:24:00] like women being sold that subservience. Or like being a household maid, for lack of a better word, is like sexy or like attractive versus like, why aren't we as a collective, why does it have to be gendered, like trad wife, there is no trad husband trend.
I find that really interesting. So those were my gut reactions was I think we all are craving being offline a little bit more and that's scratching an itch and yet it being twisted into this trad wife trend, like money being taken away in a way. There's a whole other thing that you can speak a lot better to.
I think Crystal around like money and earning and
Yeah. Well, I mean, the question in what you're saying, the question that has in my mind, because I agree with you, like the [00:25:00] aesthetic of what it is, is to me very clear why people would be attracted to this. Like type A, like I am the poster child for a type A, like gunner, ambitious, like go hard. I'm living in my masculine energy kind of girl and it's conflicting with the other side of me that wants to slow down, that wants to, take care of my family, that I've always been interested in like holistic cooking and making sure that we're having most of our meals at home.
And how can you do that all the time when you're working? So like the conflicts, and I could see why women like me. And other women in general would see this and be like, wow, this is amazing. It's very simplistic and getting back to the basics of life, which I am a huge believer in.
Yeah.
And then what you're saying in [00:26:00] the patriarchy piece of it, and how did the hashtag trad wives become hashtag trad wives?
Like, were people holding themselves out to that? Or was this like, the media and social media in general coming up with this? And putting an arbitrary meaning to it. And so when I was researching and I certainly, there were some women that spoke out about, feeling that their role was to support their husband and be at home doing homemaker things. But I have seen that a lot of the women that are kind of falling within this genre have not said anything to that degree, have not spoken about that. They are just going about what they're doing. they are just homemakers. That is what they're doing. And so if I was a homemaker, I would not be making, you know, cheez its from scratch.
Okay. I like to have home cooked meals, but my food is basic y'all. It is like, here are my roasted [00:27:00] carrots. Here is some salmon or some chicken. Okay. And often it is a Costco rotisserie chicken and I just pull it off the bone. And I mean, that is what it is.
my partner calls it kitchen sink chicken, where it's so good that you just can't wait to put it on a plate, you eat it over the kitchen sink.
I am telling y'all Costco chicken is that like when it is fresh and hot, I mean, my oldest son will just eat the skin. Which is
Mm hmm.
cause he's kind of picky on textures and he's like, yeah, I just want all the skin. So people are fighting over the skin of the chicken. So anyway, I, why would I spend five hours making a roasted chicken when I can get one from Costco for 5.
99? but so I, I have conflicting feelings about it. Right. I do think we have to, as a, in, as our culture in some way say that there is inherent value. For what women are doing in the home. And that [00:28:00] this is no judgment to other people. Cause I have been a working mother since I've had newborn children.
I went back to work with my first son was eight weeks old on my own choice. Mm
so this is no judgment, but like with all the technology out there, having kids come home, I was a latchkey kid. it, it's not, it doesn't feel safe for me. It does not feel safe for me to have my kids. have a watch thingy or be on social media or the ability to be on social media.
And I think it's harder to do that if you are not present. So for me there is a huge value these days. of a mom having the ability or choosing to give up, keeping up with the Joneses, having something new, whatever, to be a stay at home wife. And I do feel like we need to give women some support in that to feel that that is a value to feel not like I'm giving up all of this, but I'm gaining over here.
And so I see that this, I don't even want to call it a movement. It's not [00:29:00] this trend kind of. makes people feel better about that if that's their decision. you know, I don't have a joint bank account with my husband. So I, I can't speak to those other pieces. That feels very uncomfortable for me to be honest.
I mean, we were just talking about, should we get a joint bank account? Because like, we're trying to do new things with our money and like not knowing where the money is all going in different directions, like for practical reasons. But so I don't know that is uncomfortable. But on the other hand of it, I do see that if you want To be a stay at home wife and a homemaker, you have to have a certain trust and faith that your spouse is going to a support you and be, be a good person.
I mean, and hopefully you're making those choices when you're making the selection of who you're going to marry. so yeah, I don't think, too much of anything is a bad thing. Right. And so like going all [00:30:00] the way back to 1947 is not going to benefit anybody.Yeah. I think that that, okay, so if I may, I just want to speak to like a kind of a sneaky piece that I think is getting through this trend, right? Or defending the trend. Very clearly want to state unpaid domestic labor, which is raising children, homemaking, cooking, the mental load of motherhood.
We've talked about that, you know, I've talked about that so much on my podcast. I'm a really big advocate for fair play, if anyone has ever heard of that as a way of,at least acknowledging the unpaid labor, mental, emotional, and physical that women often do as homemakers, a hundred percent. there's not enough support for people who fall in that [00:31:00] demographic period.
Absolutely agree. And where I have a problem with the quote tradwife trend is the Trendiness, the aesthetic piece, the almost cosplay glorification of what it looks like to be an unpaid domestic laborer.
Yeah.
It is not, like, the reality of being unpaid domestic labor. does not look like a, you know, full blowout, fake eyelashes, sexy apron, making a roast chicken.
That's not real life. That's a character. And the danger in presenting that character as reality is that inevitably When unpaid domestic laborers don't quote unquote measure up to that [00:32:00] ideal, they will feel less than or like something's wrong with them or that their marriage isn't enough or there's a worth piece.
Like that's what I have an issue with glorifying something like a time when women couldn't open their own bank account, couldn't buy their own property. Like that wasn't that long ago. That was 1970. I want to say, not that long ago. So, and you know, when you think about when I think about what I've seen, the images that I've seen in relation to this quote, trad wife trend, it is a very Pleasantville, 1950s You know, welcome home, honey, here's your cocktail, mad men kind of thing, that is not the reality.
Yeah. I mean, first of
we have to separate like the trend from
yes.
desire for support for unpaid domestic
And for slowing down. I mean, I [00:33:00] think that is where it really starts with is like, you're cooking from home, you have a little garden, you are really getting back to nature. That does not mean, I mean, it's like, you know, my hair is like this. My aunt has a garden. She is literally the homesteading queen and she's gorgeous, but she doesn't wear makeup.
She wears jeans and a t shirt every day. She doesn't need makeup because her skin. It, I think she just turned 60 is like literally looks like ours. I'm not joking, Kelsey. If you saw her, you'd be like, that is not fair. And she has thick, gorgeous, still colored hair naturally. but she does not look like that by any stretch of the imagination, but it's this lifestyle that she has led for most of her life, which she was non traditional.
My uncle stayed at home for 10 years with my nephews and. It was a balance of, I mean, he did not do what most mothers would be doing [00:34:00] necessarily. He had his own way to deal with the kids and stuff, but he was doing, you know, the home load for the most part. And she was working and there was a balance in that.
And then they garden together and they had this like just slower, they lived, you know, outside of Austin on 20 acres. And it was just, you know, chill. And that I think is what is beautiful in it. And of course it's packaged up. And the reason we stop and look at it is because it's a beautiful aesthetic.
Right. And the colors are all right. And the outfits are right on, but yeah, I mean, those outfits are not even available at the store. Okay. Those are like custom pieces, people. So it's not based in reality. but I do think that what it symbolizes of like being more modest on in public is nice.if you choose not to be, that's fine too.
There's no rules against that, but it's just getting back to more traditional values, I guess. And that doesn't have to mean [00:35:00] that two people aren't working. And that doesn't have to mean that the wife is not making money from social media or something else. Right? Like that is what they're doing. And I think that's also kind of like the rub that some people have is that they're like, It's hypocritical, you know, that like, we're doing this traditional thing and we have these beliefs, but, Oh, by the way, I'm making a million dollars from all of my Amazon affiliate stuff.
I'm selling you this blender and look at my, special spoon. Or again, I'm not like some Betty homemaker, but, all those things that you can get aesthetically that they're selling to you. And I think that bothers a lot of people. for sure.
Mm hmm. Yeah. I will say, I have A different take than you, and this is why I love having conversations like this because both we can hold multiple perspectives, right? Like, I think that that is a really, a lost art, perhaps.
for [00:36:00] sure.
I will own that when I hear the phrase traditional values, my hackles go up, and here's why.
Traditional values to me, have a connotation of being, when you, when I hear tradition, it makes me think like of a time, a different time, a previous time, right? And traditional values to me. internal, you know, experience is, okay, that's probably mostly white Christian values that are not bad per se, but it does symbolize a time where women had fewer rights.
Women of color had more rights. Way fewer rights still do people of color had fewer rights. And so it really gives me pause when [00:37:00] I hear like getting back to traditional values. It just makes me really think like, okay, but can, can the person define what does traditional values mean to them? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And like, what is really the root of what we want to get back to? Because if you're saying like, getting back to nature, getting back to not being plugged in, getting out of the rat race, agree a thousand percent. Every human being would benefit from that. if we are saying we want to have more infrastructure that supports rest and time with your family, like, Yes.
A hundred percent behind that. But what I'm not behind is an, I believe, antiquated model where the man is the head of the household and the woman is more subservient. That I cannot get behind and, and never will.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I can definitely speak to what I think of a [00:38:00] traditional values and that's with having a caregiver at home. And it doesn't matter who it is. I mean, in my case, my caregiver was my nanny for the most part. I, I say a caregiver being somebody that is spending the majority of your time with the kids, like one
Mm hmm.
single person, it could be a grandparent, in certain cultures, it usually is a grandparent and both of the parents are working, which I would love and welcome.
So, but to me, it's like having one central kind of caregiver. And yes, being able to spend more time as a family, having more home cooked meals around a dinner table together. In my case, it's not the dinner table. The dinner table is like wasted. We have a breakfast table and we, and it only has four chairs and we pull up a bench.
Exactly. And, but we eat around together or, you know, we have breakfast together. Me and my husband stand up. [00:39:00] Usually my kids are at the bar. Somebody might be at the breakfast table, but we are centralized together for the majority of our meals because conversations happen that way. And then, yeah, to see that people have the opportunity and the emphasis to be more in nature, whether that's spending time at a park, because you live in a very congested city.
Or you're escaping to somewhere or you decide to move. I mean, I have friends that have done that, and love
hmm.
That's probably not for me, even though my parents are moving to our country and my sister has chosen to live there. She's only lived in the city for, I don't know, three or four years. And then she moved to the country, to our family property.
And that's where they live, you know, driving 45 minutes. miles down a, non paved road just to get to a paved road. So
That's how I grew
yeah,
That's how I grew up. And, you know, I, I grew up [00:40:00] 8 miles, 8 miles down an unpaved road, mostly, in Colorado. I split my time. And, we had no, Cell phone, we had no internet, we had no computer, we had no printer, we, it's amazing. I had to read books and play with my American Girl dolls and it was great.
It was a great childhood. I had my butt in the dirt and I loved it.
that
yes. And, and to be clear to where I think you're going is like, absolutely. I am always going to be a proponent that women can do anything that they want to do. I just don't like that now that I've started looking at thinking about, you That I feel that we are not, we're not telling women not to stay home. But we subtly are saying like, Oh, is that the, and I, and I think back to, I love my gynecologist. My OB GYN is amazing. But I remember one time she [00:41:00] doesn't have children and she said, I don't know when anybody with a upper level degree would ever quit work and stay home with their children. And at the time I thought, yeah, I don't either.
That's, I mean, I'm a lawyer. Why would I do that? but now I'm like, man, that's kind of a, that's kind of a shocking thing to say to somebody. Yeah, I mean, she did not care. She does not care. I mean, I love her. In fact, I recommended somebody to her and they were a big no. She was a big no for them. But, that to me is where I get and why maybe it's called I sympathize with the trad wife trend a little bit.
is, it's that I want people to see and feel like if that is what's in your heart, that is valued. You're valued to be a caregiver. That is so hard. It's so challenging. It's not all calm and quiet beauty like they're projecting. Okay, I promise if you've tried to [00:42:00] make donuts homemade with three boys, you will know that is not what's gonna end up on social media.
But I just feel like where we are in society in American culture We aren't I feel that the culture we are really pushing women to be more ambitious Which is great, but that's not for everybody, and it's not for everybody at every time of your life. So kind of to come full circle on our conversation on where you are in a season of life, and that's really where I've enjoyed kind of seeing that and seeing like how that seems peaceful, and how there are nice things about that, about cooking at home, being with your family more.
not worried about the outside world or having more, better, faster, richer. and I want for people, I want for women to really understand that it's okay to step back. And if you decide to be a homemaker, it's probably the hardest job in my opinion. So [00:43:00] kudos to you. It has a huge value and I want us to talk more.
about that being a special role and should be a prominent role in every society.
Absolutely. I read a, I read a study. I had somebody on my podcast recently, who's a business owner. She is a, website designer and she has two kids under two years old and was really struggling mental health wise. And also, kind of had this, and there's a podcast episode about it on find your magic on my podcast.
If you want to listen to it, it's Becca Reed. And, She was talking about how she had to find her happy medium. She realized that she thought that she wanted to be a hundred percent stay at home mom. And then once she lived the reality, she was like, no, I need my business to stay sane, but I don't want to Go 100 percent that way and have a, like a 24 seven nanny [00:44:00] either.
And her journey of like finding her happy medium. I think that is so important because what I would caution people against who maybe are feeling drawn towards that quote unquote trad wife thing. Don't make that yet another measuring stick. Like don't make making homemade donuts versus buying Krispy Kreme.
affect your sense of whether or not you are worthy of praise as a homemaker. Do you know what I mean?
Keeping your kids alive and fed is a feat. Okay. People. And so if you need to sit around for three hours in your pajamas and read books, smutty books, maybe, but that's for another conversation probably. But, if you want to do that, that's okay. And is because keeping people alive is draining. [00:45:00] And so I need more relaxation.
So I think that's really important for everybody. And I know we are going to run up on time because we are busy ladies that have other obligations. So I also wanted to say a shout out that you have an amazing new course out for chat GPT that will help people no matter if you're a copywriter or you're an ordinary person.
Honestly, I use chat GPT pretty frequently in my business, in my day life. For like the craziest things sometimes if my kids ask a question, I just use it So I think this is going to be a fantastic course for people and we will drop a link into the show notes for the course Yay
I, I am really excited about it. It's just meant to, again, like everything that I do, everything that I put out in the world, I really want it to be like a friend who was walking you through something and helping you feel less crazy. So, yeah. With this course, it is meant for normal non [00:46:00] techie people who have been curious about ChatGPT, who don't necessarily know how to use it, maybe who tried to watch some YouTube videos and were like, I don't know, I don't, I don't know.
This is for you. So as Crystal said, the link is in the show notes below. It's called how to use ChatGPT for normals.
Love it. That is a great great great title from an amazing copywriter and I My new website, the well defined woman. com is live and we will be populating content like multiple times a week for the next couple of weeks while we get it all going. and we have a fun freebie called your simplest path to a million dollars, to help women get comfortable Seeing a path for themselves, even on a moderate income of how you can build your nest egg and support yourself.
so we'll be sharing that information with everybody too. And I want everybody to keep [00:47:00] getting clear on your goals on what you want for your life. If it's because you want to be the CEO of a massive 500 million company. I love it. Want to support that. If you want to take a step back from a powerful job and be at stay at home mother, I am all for that too, because only you can define your life and what works for you.
And that is what the well defined woman is all about, is helping women thrive. Find their authentic voice to live their authentic and defined life. So
Love it.
this is so much fun and we will be doing it again. You guys, thank you for, you know, listening in for being a wonderful audience. And, Thanks again, Kelsey, for joining and I love our conversations every time.
Me too. Me too. Thanks for, thanks for getting in the ring with me. That was really fun and really cool and I really
and guys, we didn't plan it, but it came full circle anyway.
Yeah.
So it's great. Well, we will see you guys next time. Find your magic and keep getting [00:48:00] clear. Bye.
