Kt McBratney: [00:00:00] Welcome to Founded on Purpose, the show where we get to know the people working to align business and impact, profit, and purpose. I'm your host, Kt McBratney. Each episode, we talk with a different guest who's building an interesting company. We ask the same set of questions of these founders, funders, and movement makers.
And while the questions may be the same, the conversations they open up are always a fascinating and insightful journey. Our guest today is Kay Rodriguez, founder and CEO of Outerly, a social impact company that's beating loneliness by connecting people outdoors. She's business brain meets outdoors heart, bringing experience from Bain and National Geographic to building Outerly and getting folks together outside.
I think you're going to find her a much needed breath of fresh air. Hey, welcome to the show. It's
Kay Rodriguez: Thanks so much, Kt. I'm so excited to be here.
Kt McBratney: Well, let's dive in [00:01:00] because this is the question I feel like is going to open up so much. Number one, in one word, what is your purpose?
Kay Rodriguez: Belonging.
Kt McBratney: Say more. What does that mean to you?
Kay Rodriguez: I think that as humans, I, I don't like this. I know that as humans, we need belonging. We need belonging for survival. We need it for our own peace and happiness. We need it for our health and our prosperity. And because of things like social media, coupled with world events, like the pandemic, a lot of the belonging that we have historically experienced as humans has gone away.
And so, the purpose that I strive for every day, and the thing that gives me the most joy when I see it happening before my eyes, is bringing people together in a way that makes them feel like they belong [00:02:00] somewhere. That makes them feel welcome and accepted. That gives them a space to feel safe and a space where they can show up as they are in that day, in that moment.
Um, I believe everybody deserves to have that. And I don't think it's easy to find, especially in cities as things are today.
Kt McBratney: You know, we've talked about the. Kind of lack of, or transformation of third places before, where do you find belonging? Knowing it's such like this core purpose of yours and we live in a world where there aren't as many like shared third places where you can just be and feel, feel belonging.
Where's a place that you love and you always feel that?
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I'm sitting in it right now. Uh, I'm currently sitting in my climbing gym, BC Bouldering Project. Um, I have been a member here for about three years. I have been. I've been a contractor helper outer here for about [00:03:00] a year and I have really embedded myself into this community.
I've met a lot of my best friends through this place. I recently had a really difficult life event happen and the first place that I came was here because I knew that there would be a group of smiling faces and warm hugs waiting for me even if I showed up in tears. And I To go back to the point of belonging being a place where you can show up as you are in that moment, this is truly one of the places that I feel that way.
And I feel like even if, even if I show up unannounced, I will see a friendly face here who will brighten my day, even just 1%.
Kt McBratney: A climbing gym is a place where literally people will catch you. And it sounds like very much metaphorically as well, too.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah. Absolutely.
Kt McBratney: Now, you may, you mentioned that you, you know, recently had [00:04:00] a, a challenging life event, but I want to talk about a win.
What's been a most, like your most recent win, personal or professional?
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I'll go with a professional one. Um, we actually pivoted our business model for Outerly recently. Previously, we were a freemium app where people could sign up for the app and then upgrade to freemium. And we had a lot of initial interest for that app, but unfortunately couldn't really figure out the product market fit and the pull to get people to subscribe to freemium.
And so, went back to the drawing board, thought about our main core mission of bringing people together in nature. And said, do we need an app to do that? And so we took the app down, we spun up something on Typeform and Stripe and just the third party resources we had available to [00:05:00] match groups of people, small groups of people, for walks around their city.
We launched our very first walk on September 21st in Washington, D. C. We had 67 people buy tickets to that walk to get matched into their small groups. We sorted them into 11 different groups. And we had an overwhelmingly positive response. Um, I was at the end point for the walks, all of the different walks converged at a park in Central D.
C. And I was at the end point and the energy and the warmth and the excitement was indescribable. I was so blown away by how everybody just felt like they were glowing and everyone got their steps in, they got their sign. And the feeling, that feeling we get to replicate every single Saturday morning.
Now, um, tomorrow will be our third walk and we have 56 people signed up [00:06:00] across eight different groups and the pivots going really well from a revenue perspective. We are generating more revenue than we ever have in this given period of time. In the history of the company, we've had more pay individual paying customers, and we've had a higher Conversion from first purchase into a membership than we've ever had before.
So this pivot seems to be the one that's working the best. And this is a thread we're going to continue to pull. Um, because I think, I think it gets to the core of what we always wanted to do, which has never changed. It's just doing it in a way that's simple, that's easy, and that feels comfortable and safe for people.
And that it feels like the most massive win and truthfully. I don't even know that I've fully had the time to process and celebrate it as much as I should.
Kt McBratney: If I had the capability to insert a round of applause here like the old corny [00:07:00] morning show DJs, I would. Perhaps we'll do that in post. Because it's super worth celebrating and pivots can be hard and like, they're scary.
Because you don't know what you don't know.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I mean, all we knew the only data that we had was that. What we currently had in market was not working and was not going to be the answer to building a venture scale social impact and we've crunched the numbers i've gone through the financial model for this new pivot and I truly do believe that we can um A million, many millions of people who walk together as a ritual every single Saturday morning.
Kt McBratney: It sounds like there's a lot of challenges, you know, thinking about the problem space that you're in. Loneliness, isolation, mental health, physical wellness, access to the environment, right? There's public health threads [00:08:00] of that. There's also, you know, there's so many tangled up problems that are manifested in this, as it's been dubbed, the loneliness epidemic.
Um, and also access belonging, the outdoors, like that's a multifaceted like component too. So like you operate and live and just like personify the intersection of those worlds. And I say that not to butter you up, but to set context for this next, okay, maybe both, to set context for this next question.
But what's the single biggest, single biggest missed opportunity in your field?
Because,
Kt McBratney: I mean, how do you even define what your field is, knowing that you're a social impact company, but you're kind of partially an outdoors company, but you're an experience company, but you're a tech company, but you're a loneliness company, like, what is your field?
Let's start there.
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I, I would put a squarely in the wellness and [00:09:00] mental health field because the end goal For me, has always been to make nature, access to nature and doing it in a way that feels safe and easy, as easy as walking into a restaurant and ordering dinner. And so, the, the reason why that hasn't existed so far, and this gets into the thread of how wellness and mental health expand into the outdoors, and expand into public health, and expand into social, I think the biggest issue is that, For a long time, the outdoor industry has billed the outdoors as this highly technical, epic, hardcore, like, you gotta be strong, you gotta be fast, you gotta climb high, tall mountains, you have to do all of the crazy things, and as a result, a lot of the gear that existed in the market was very technical, and a lot of the advertising for companies in the outdoors was very, [00:10:00] almost elitist, in a way.
And so a lot of people And I felt like they do not belong in the outdoors. Oh, I can't hike 4, 000 feet of elevation gain in a day. That means I'm not a hiker. I can't climb 512. That means I'm not a climber. And I like you, it goes on and on. There's even a ton of like derogatory terms in the outdoors and any outdoor sport that people call newbies because it just wasn't a welcoming for a long time.
It wasn't a welcoming space. It was very gay. And so, for us, for me, going back to your original question, I think the single most missed opportunity here is actually bringing more people who haven't historically considered themselves outdoorsy into the outdoors in a way that makes them feel good, that gives them the benefits of being in nature [00:11:00] without having to force them into the outdoors.
Hiking Everest, or summiting a 14er, or, uh, you know, big waves, or whatever the crazy hardcore sport is. Um, you're still a snowboarder if you're snowboarding on the bunny hill. You're still a climber if you're on the V intros here at the gym. You are, you are what you want to be, and I think that similar to the way that nowadays we talk about identity and the things that you can claim as part of your identity, I think.
When it comes to the outdoors, you can claim whatever you are interested in and what you love. And it doesn't mean you have to be a certain level or you have to achieve a certain amount of rigor in that activity. It just means you do it. You show up like as you are in that moment and you do it. And we want to provide a space where anyone who has an idea in their head of, I want to be outside, [00:12:00] can come to one of our walks and they can be outside.
And they can be outdoorsy, and they can be other people who are outside and outdoorsy. And that's how the journey, that's how the journey starts for a lot of people. I'll just give a quick anecdote about that, um, or two quick anecdotes.
Kt McBratney: Sure.
Kay Rodriguez: The first is that, um, many people we talked to, we did tons of customer research for this company.
And many people we talked to said they got into the outdoors because they had a friend who brought them out or a family member who brought them out. If you grew up in a marginalized community where people weren't going outside, you don't have access to that. And so if you don't have access to that one person who said, I'm going to take you outside because it's amazing, then you probably haven't gone as much as you could or at all.
Which leads me to my second point. Uh, we did a large customer survey early, early on in the out early days, and we learned that about 75 percent of people don't, They can't go outside [00:13:00] regularly or as much as they want to because they can't find other people to go with them. So the problem that we're solving is not where to go or, you know, how to cater to this very technical, elite sector of the outdoor community.
It is how do we bring a person who's not going outside as much as they want to? outside to every single week to experience the benefit of being in nature for their health, their happiness, and for their social lives.
Kt McBratney: How do you address, then, there's two realities there at once, right? The fact that we are all beginners when we begin something, nobody, like, Starts a new activity.
What of any kind, not even necessarily outdoors, but like you have to be a beginner when you're starting something like, so that's true. And there's this like legacy of gatekeeping and a bit of elitism in, in the outdoors community or [00:14:00] commercial space. We'll say, how do you go about like being different when the, the precedent is almost like, I'm not supposed to be able to be welcome here.
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I think there's a couple ways we go about that. The first is language, the way we talk about it. I think that there is a lot of jargon and a lot of vocabulary that goes into the outdoors that can be learned over time. I mean, it's vocabulary, anyone can learn it, but that can feel exclusionary when somebody enters a space and doesn't know it.
Climbing has its own vocabulary that you may not know if you entered the space and you had nobody who was teaching you the ropes. And so we avoid. As much as possible, any sort of technical jargon in any of our communications or anything like that. The second thing is, we focus on an area [00:15:00] or on an activity that feels accessible to most people that maybe they don't even consider as an outdoor activity the way that it is.
Um, the recommended dosage of nature by many scientific studies is about 120 minutes per week. And 120 minutes being outside, not in an enclosed space, breathing fresh air, getting your vitamin D from the sun, like, being out in nature spaces. And so, we said, okay, well, what's something that people would feel very little friction doing and would feel very little friction doing in a social setting?
And walking seemed like the easiest thing. There's a lot of, like, There's a lot of social media trends right now going on about hospital walks, getting your steps, um, urban hiking. And so we said, okay, well, if people feel like walking is accessible to them, then we will, we will walk. That's how we're going to do.
[00:16:00] That's how we're going to be outside. And so we're, we started with walks. Walks are definitely going to be a core part of what we do for a long time. Um, and that's, that's purely so that we can. Make this feel very accessible, and it doesn't even necessarily feel like I'm going outside to be outdoorsy.
It's, I'm joining this so I can be part of a group of people, so I can meet people, and so I can get my snips in and get some sunshine. So, it's a win win win across all fronts.
Kt McBratney: And to your point, like, you don't have to go to a national park, or even a state park, or even a park to be outside. Like, literally just step outside your door, like, what you have around you is going to vary.
Right, but there's gonna be birds, there's, there's gonna be pigeons of some kind, squirrels of some kind if you're in North America, like, nature is around us all the time, we're just not necessarily always viewing it as that. Why do you think that is, that we have this like, association that it doesn't [00:17:00] count as being outdoorsy, or like, in terms of an activity, or it doesn't count as being like, in nature, if there's still some kind of like, urban, suburban, like, sign of human life, like, why do we feel like it's I'm going to get, I did not warn you I was going to get super philosophical, but it's super interesting, right?
Because like we are on the planet, we are in nature, but somehow we've thought of it as it only counts as nature if it's completely outside of how we're spending our quote unquote non nature time.
Kay Rodriguez: Right. Yeah. I think there are levels. So, I think that there are levels of nature exposure, and there are scientific studies that back this.
There's a really cool app called NatureDose that is run by a company called NatureQuant, and they basically can quantify, based on your GPS coordinates, whether you're outside or not. I use this app to track how much outside time I get every week, um, but I think they are able to actually tell you the level of nature [00:18:00] that you are in at any given point.
And so, I think that there are levels to nature exposure that definitely differ between the woods or a national park versus taking a walk down the sidewalk in a very urban space. However, getting any outdoor activity at all is better than not. You are still getting many of the benefits of fresh air, moving, being under the sun.
Being around whatever trees or grass, or to your point, even the weeds poking out of the sidewalk. Um, and I think part of that, part of the benefits are from those things directly. And part of the benefits are also just the ability to be present where you are. Notice those weeds poking out of the sidewalk or those bird squirrels scurrying around.
Um, notice how it feels to be somewhere that's not behind a screen. [00:19:00] And be present with the people around you. And that, that kind of environment is what we aim to cultivate for people. So that even if, let's say you go on our outerly walk and you don't meet somebody that you vibe with, you at least got your time outside.
You got some steps in, you got to be out in the sun and you took a break from your screen and that's a win in our book.
Kt McBratney: Speaking of wins, I want to flip it around the other direction. Cause I agree with everything you just said. When was the last time you were wrong
Kay Rodriguez: about anything? I think that the, our entire journey has been a series of wrongs.
The last time that we were wrong was probably in some ways the first walk that we did. Um, it went really well. We had great stats. We had great turnout. People overwhelmingly had a great time, but, um, [00:20:00] we got feedback from every single person and we learned a couple of things that we. Could do better to make people feel safer, to make people feel more heard.
Um, one of those things was suggested by, um, actually somebody who had reached out to me previously, um, about this and like she said, I'm a single mom. I really care about safety. I don't feel as safe if I don't know the first names of everybody who's going to be on the swap with me. I don't need all the information, you know, whatnot.
We want to keep everybody's personal information private, obviously. But I would feel a lot safer if I just knew a little tidbit about these people. And so we decided to launch, based on that feedback, we decided to launch names and pronouns of all of the groups before you meet up with them for a walk.
And that has gone really, really well. So our hypothesis was that we keep things under wraps to be mysterious and to make it a surprise. But in fact, I think a lot, a [00:21:00] lot of people feel safer and it becomes a more accessible experience when they know even just the small tidbit of what's a person's first name and what are their pronouns.
So, um, yeah, we were wrong in that hypothesis. I'll give, I will actually give one other example from our most recent pivot. Um, I thought that Saturday mornings were going to be the best time. I was like, I love Saturday mornings. I make my coffee. I go on a walk. Like Saturday mornings seem like the right time to do this.
We did an Instagram poll to find out if people wanted Saturday mornings. Um, based on actually, we had an open question box and somebody asked, are the walks always going to be on Saturdays? Are there going to be any other walks on different days? And I said, let's ask people how they feel about that. And so we asked people.
When they wanted to go on walks. And we actually learned that Saturdays are people's least favorite days to go on walks. So we have been, [00:22:00] we have been choosing a day of the week that actually works for the least number of people. So now we're going to be testing later in the month a couple of weekday evenings as well as a couple of Sundays to see if the turnout is better or different on those days.
So, um, we've been wrong a lot, but we listen very closely and we iterate quickly so that we can try and test whether the feedback we're getting is something that people want unilaterally.
Kt McBratney: That idea that like the journey is a series of being wrong and thinking about there are elements of a thing that can be very, very right while there also might be pieces that are wrong.
I think it's a really useful framing, especially for first time founders and like you, you've been a founder before. Um, but every time that you're building something new, it's the first time you're doing that. And that idea that like, it isn't a binary, it's never like, I 100 percent knocked this out of the park, or I 100 [00:23:00] percent quote unquote failed, is really interesting.
And thinking about it similar, in a similar way to the levels of nature exposure that you were thinking of, that you talked about earlier, this idea that like, there are levels of how correct our assumptions were. It's not just, we were wrong or we were right.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I think most things are a gradient, to be honest, and I think when you realize that a lot of the things that we do and that we strive for exist in the gray, it's a lot of, it's freeing in a way.
It, it makes, it makes achievement feel more accessible because it doesn't have to be a win or a loss. It can be, this went well, but these things didn't go well, and what can we learn from that? And I think this cycle of learning and the cycle of, honestly, like, Being self critical in a lot of ways and, and using the resources we have to validate that and improve it [00:24:00] is one of the most important skills and the important attributes of a good founder.
Um, otherwise, you're building in a vacuum without any input and that never goes well.
Kt McBratney: Now, you just said that you believe that most things don't happen in, in a, in a vacuum. A gradient in, in a gray area. Right. But my friend, I know that there are some things where you have very strongly held convictions, unwavering beliefs.
What's a hill you would die on?
Kay Rodriguez: Social media has divided humanity more than it has brought it together.
Kt McBratney: Whew. That's a big statement. Do you want to share any, any, any reasons or any why or any data? Or, you know, like you're using social media to, to build your business, right? It's one of your growth channels.
Kay Rodriguez: Yep.
Kt McBratney: So how is it tearing, like, how do you know, or what has informed that strongly held opinion, which, let the record show, I am not necessarily [00:25:00] challenging Kay on this. I'm digging in.
Kay Rodriguez: I, well, it's a hill I'll die on, so I will explain. Um, I don't think that social media was meant to be inherently bad for people.
I think that it was meant to give people a different way than email or phone or letters in the mail to connect. And I think in the beginning, in the early days of MySpace and Facebook, it was, it was very much like that. You only added people you knew, you only saw people that you knew on your feed, you got to choose, it was a chronological algorithm, if you can even call it that, like you could just see what was happening as it was happening.
And it was just another communication. But once we started, once social media started developing into more of this, Let me follow other people's lives, or let me aspire to be like another person. It created sort of like [00:26:00] inherent competition between people to only post good things, to only post wins, to only post, I'm excited to announce, LinkedIn posts, and to shy away from a lot of the things that make us human.
Being, making mistakes, hurting, Crying, um, having a hard time, missing people, um, feeling alone. Those are all things that, for a long time, weren't really acceptable to talk about on social media. And it's not just social media. I mean, even in professional spaces that's looked down upon, like there are a lot of things that society has done, but I think that that has choked our humanity in a way, especially digitally.
Even, you know, if you go on a dating app today, that is a highly curated version of a person that, it's just, it's like the cover of a book. You don't know what's in the book. [00:27:00] You don't know if the book even has any writing in it. You haven't opened it. You don't know anything. That's just what they want you to see to catch your eye.
And I think that the way that the algorithms have been built to generate attention and eyeballs and scroll forever, scroll forever, scroll forever, we've lost a lot of the sense of like, Like, the humanity, the human part of what makes us real and authentic. And this is why we, you know, ultimately decided to pivot away from just, just nap into like, Hey, we're going to connect you with a bunch of humans.
You're going to have to trust us and our algorithm to do that. You're not going to know who they are, but you're going to find out. You're going to be able to read the book when you go, when you show up for that walk, you're, you're going to see the cover, but you're going to see the cover as it shows up that day.
Not, not the one that they curate for you so that they can get more likes on Instagram.
Kt McBratney: It's, it's kind [00:28:00] of like the way that social media has evolved, right? And that's a fabulous critique of it. And, um, I'm here for that rabbit hole and we'll, we'll, uh, join you in that on a, on a separate occasion. Uh, but it's like social media today as we know it has evolved into something that doesn't, you know, Intentionally center belonging all the time, which of course that makes sense because that's your core purpose, right?
That's your motivating purpose is belonging. So where you see lots of time energy resources being poured into things Where that kind of counter that purpose it makes sense that you you have that strong conviction. Thank you for sharing that
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I think one other thing that I would just like to add on that is we do use social media I am NOT I will own that One of the things we really try to do though, and me personally, on LinkedIn or my own curriculum channels as well as as a company, is trying to slay those human [00:29:00] elements.
Like, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you will know that I talk so vulnerably about the startup journey, the times that I wanted to quit, the times when we ran out of money, the times when I built something that nobody wanted. The times when we had to pivot and put our tail between our legs and just do something else because what we were doing was not working.
And a lot of people have privately reached out to me and said, don't do that. Investors aren't going to like you. And I say back to that, that all of the investors that have invested in us actually really do like that. And that's why they invest is because there's a human here, a human who makes Owns up to them, learns from them, a human who cries.
And who laughs, um, but a human who's running a human centered company and a human who's building human powered tech. And I think in this age of AI and this age of influence, [00:30:00] We need more humans.
Kt McBratney: I mean, amen to that. And the follow up question is, how does this human, how do you, Kay? How do you play? Knowing that you work in, like, part of your work is getting out and being with people in nature.
What does play look like for you when you are not 51 percent thinking of outerly? Or more?
Kay Rodriguez: I love learning new skills. So, I think what I feel most engaged When I can either learn a new skill from scratch or when I'm so focused on something that I cannot think of anything else. So the first one is, um, what have I learned most recently?
I took a class recently, um, to learn how to lead climb, which for those of you who don't know what lead climbing is, it is jargon, um, when you climb outside and there's bolts in the rock, you can actually climb and set up the rope in So that [00:31:00] other people can climb normally into it. And so it's basically a more advanced form of top rope climbing with a common alpha gen.
Um, I took a class to learn how to lead climb and it was scary. Falling on a lead rope is really scary because you're falling like a lot of feet. Um, and you have to trust that your belayer is going to hit you. And I did that for me. I did it because I wanted to learn how to do it because I want to climb outside more because I knew it would be hard and that I'd have to learn how to fall and falling is scary.
And, um, I wanted to do something that was scary. And so that was a skill that I learned recently that I invested in. And I actually just went lead climbing last night with a few new friends. So, um, I, I enjoy learning a new skill. And then on the same thing, when you're on the wall, you can't think of other things or you're going to fall.
So it's, it's one of those faces back to the hole. I love the climbing den. Um, so. It's one of those spaces and one of those activities you just have to be present [00:32:00] and you have to be who you are, you have to show up who you are in that moment and just be with the wall and Are you, are you sensing it being here?
Kt McBratney: A
Kay Rodriguez: little bit, a little bit. It's almost like,
Kt McBratney: um, one, one thought that, that's, that stood out to me is like, you can't always fake it till you make it. And that's not always the best option or the safest or like, it can be more limiting than it's helpful, right? Like faking that you're an expert at something where it could be physically more challenging or like you won't learn the skill properly to try to pretend that you're an expert when you're not, right?
There's like inherent risk there. Uh, but also, you are not afraid of being a beginner at anything, are you?
Kay Rodriguez: No, I love it, actually. I love being a beginner. I love not knowing what's going on because, again, being a beginner at something and diving into a new skill puts you squarely in the gray. [00:33:00] You're like, I don't know where I'm at.
I am lost. I'm in the dark. What resources do I have to figure out how to navigate this? And I think all of us crazy startup founders have that same sort of like innate desire to like be put in the middle of this chaotic mess of like, I don't know what's going on and like sort through it and build it into something meaningful and powerful.
And I love doing that in my personal life. I love doing it in my professional life. I love talking through these types of things with my friends and my family because at the end of the day, learning new skills, building a company, all of that stuff, it's just problem solving. And. I will problem solve all of them.
Kt McBratney: And, and when it comes to that, you didn't know this question was coming, but thank you for setting up the segue so lovely. Um, you know, knowing that you're, you're problem solving ultimately, and a lot of times these are brand new problems or new contexts or a new challenge. How do you know what advice to take?
Because like, especially with first time founders or early stage founders or new [00:34:00] company founder, even if you've founded things before, whether you ask for it or not, everybody's going to give you advice. So how do you know what to take and what to, like, let fall off the proverbial rock face? Is that, is that accurate climbing lingo?
Kay Rodriguez: Hopefully no one's falling off of any rock faces,
but, um, yeah, I, this is actually a hilariously enough advice that I give to a lot of newer founders who ask me, like, what's your main advice for new founders? Be really choosy about the advice that you take and the feedback that you take. And I think maybe this isn't, like, the best answer, and maybe some people would argue this, but I think a lot of it is intuition.
And I think a lot of it is, I've been doing this for two years now, and I have talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people. I have done, I've built an app, I've taken it down, I built another app, took it down, [00:35:00] did something completely different. And I think when I think through feedback, I take the feedback and the advice.
that intuitively fits in with our guiding principle of connecting people outdoors. And so when somebody says, oh, it would be really cool if I'm going to make this up, like, it would be really cool if Outerly had bowling outing. I would say, yeah, it would be really cool. I don't think we're going to do that.
And I, it would be really great if you could find and here's some resources for maybe finding a bowling outing if you want it. Like, we are an out. outside company and we want to bring people outside. And so having, making sure that all the advice you take aligns with your own intuition as a founder, as well as your sort of guiding mission, Northstar.
I think that's the key to being choosy about the feedback you take.
Kt McBratney: Yeah. And the more [00:36:00] clarity and conviction you have around what that is, be it a mission that's formalized, a purpose, a guiding value. Uh, population that you've decided you want to serve in a certain way. Like that's almost like a shortcut anchor back to, to what matters.
And would you even say like a, in a, in a way it almost gives you permission to quickly let go of what doesn't align?
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah. And you have to say no to things. I mean, you can't be all things to all people. No company can, no product can, no person can. And
Kt McBratney: Hey, did you come on my podcast to completely read me?
I kid
Kay Rodriguez: a little bit. You know, we talked about reading people like books. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's having this, like, very strong conviction in this pool. And I think, like, the intuition and the conviction around North Star are, like, probably one in the same, honestly. [00:37:00] Um, one of those is just, like, now into, like, a sentence or a word format.
And one of those is just, like, in your gut, what do you feel? Like, how does it make your body feel when you react to it? And I think it answers all questions, truly. I don't think there's ever been a question that I didn't run through that filter, that didn't come out the other side better and more to align what we want to do.
Kt McBratney: And especially, like, this idea of saying no, like, fundamentally, You are just like factually correct. Um, I don't know if you've read the book, 4, 000 Weeks by, um, Oliver Berkman, I believe, but it talks about how like, essentially we all have 4, 000 weeks of life and like, you literally cannot say yes to everything.
Like we do have constraints, we do have constraints in this world. And I think if you work in the, well, if you have lived, worked in the startup industry or a lot of industries in our world, in our [00:38:00] culture, um, there's this idea of like growth at all costs, right? This infinite growth. Which has its purpose, like I understand the math of it, I work in Venture Capital, right?
And also, we live on planet Earth, and we live within time, and we live within human constraints, even when we augment them, or push them, or test them with technology or innovation and things like that, but like, at the end of the day, nobody can say yes to everything, even if they truly want to, and sometimes we know we don't want to say yes to it.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I mean, to that point about scale and growth at all costs, I think, of course, you want to, you want to think about your company as a venture scale company, about reaching millions of people, about having that size, but a lot of times I find myself thinking about how did we influence every individual customer that have bought a [00:39:00] ticket and come on one of our walks?
Did we change their life for the better? Did they like us so much they decided to come on? Did they? Leave feedback that we can use and run through this filter that we can use to improve for all of the other moms out there or all of the other Barbara's out there. Um, and Yeah, I think there's there's obviously a purpose for the growth at all costs mindset or the move fast and break things mindset but I think there's also a lot of value in thinking about every individual that comes through your organization and the impact that you're having on a very micro scale and and I think that a lot of times in the startup world, we overlook.
Kt McBratney: You clearly care so much about what you're doing and why you're doing it. I could feel it through the screen, through the microphone. It's so encouraging. It's so exciting. I'm excited to be on this journey with [00:40:00] you, but we know it's not easy. We know it's not easy. What is, for our final question, what is the most challenging part of your job and what is like your absolute.
favorite thing, the best part that if you could do it all day long, you would, without a moment's hesitation.
Kay Rodriguez: The most challenging part of my job is separating K from outerly. And I don't do a great job of this, I will admit, right now. Um, because it is an area that I'm personally passionate about. And so
Kt McBratney: Well, it's hard.
I think I've been there. It's super hard when you're like, this is an extension of me. And also, I, I can't be it. It is independent of me.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, like I, and this is something that I continue to work on personally through journaling, through therapy, through conversation with other people around me, um, it's this idea that I am building [00:41:00] something and I'm putting a lot into it.
It is not me. If it doesn't go the way I want it to, it's not because Kay didn't go the way that she wanted to. It's not, it is a separate, But related entity to me and my soul and my life. And so trying really, I think the biggest challenge in the compartmentalization of things is just remembering to invest not just into the business and energy wise, financially, et cetera, but also into myself and my own growth.
Um, and then to the second part of your question, uh, what is the greatest thing that I would love to do all day?
My favorite thing in the world so far during this pivot has been, Watching the groups come in, knowing that all these people started off as strangers that morning, laughing, joking, exchanging numbers, talking about deep topics, [00:42:00] glowing in their faces. Like I mentioned at our first vlog, the energy was so palpable.
It was, I can't even describe how magical it felt to watch 11 groups of people from, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s. All the way down to people who are in college. Um, feeling the effect and the magical qualities of being outside with other people. I could do that all day. If I could just match people as strangers and see them turn into friends over the course of 10, 000 steps, every single day, I would do it.
Every single day.
Kt McBratney: Well, it sounds like you're on your way. Um, and that, that you really light up when you're witnessing this belonging that you and the Outerly team are, are creating. Like, that's real life tangible value. Um, okay, now's the time. You've talked about the walks. You've talked about Outerly. How can folks [00:43:00] find you, learn more, join a walk, and follow your journey?
Kay Rodriguez: We are at Outerly. co, that's our website. Um, we are only live in Washington, D. C., in the greater Washington, D. C. area currently as of. Fall 2024, um, but we hope to expand next year to several other cities. So I encourage you all to check it out Fill out our personality questionnaire. Let us know what city that you're in so we can hopefully come to you We get enough demand.
Um, you all do inform where we are going to go next So please put in a bid for your city and we'll let you know when we launch there.
Kt McBratney: All right. All you Atlanta folks, let's go on a walk. Let's fill out that form. We'll walk together.
Kay Rodriguez: Please do. Um, we also are on social media. I put my foot in my mouth, but you can find us on social media.
Kt McBratney: We can use it for good.
Kay Rodriguez: You can find me often crying or being very vulnerable on social media at Let's Get Outerly. Um, [00:44:00] I also post regularly, build in public updates about my startup on my personal LinkedIn. Just look up, Hey Rodriguez, utterly on LinkedIn and you'll find me. Um, and you can reach out via email.
I love hearing from you all. I love taking walks with you all if you're local or if we're in the same city. Um, I love hearing about how nature impacted your journey. So please feel free to email me at Kay, K A Y, at Outerly. co.
Kt McBratney: Awesome. Thank you for that. We're going to put all of those links in the show notes, make it easy for people to learn more, uh, to share their love of nature and to tap into a feeling and a purpose of belonging with you, Kay.
Thank you so much. Like I said, at the beginning, you were a breath of fresh air and this, this definitely like warmed my heart, got my brain turning in some really juicy ways and also has inspired me to close my laptop after this recording. Thank you And get thyself on a walk, if even for 10 minutes. So thank you.[00:45:00]
Kay Rodriguez: Excited for you. And thanks for having me today.
Kt McBratney: All right, take care everyone and go outside.
And while the questions may be the same, the conversations they open up are always a fascinating and insightful journey. Our guest today is Kay Rodriguez, founder and CEO of Outerly, a social impact company that's beating loneliness by connecting people outdoors. She's business brain meets outdoors heart, bringing experience from Bain and National Geographic to building Outerly and getting folks together outside.
I think you're going to find her a much needed breath of fresh air. Hey, welcome to the show. It's
Kay Rodriguez: Thanks so much, Kt. I'm so excited to be here.
Kt McBratney: Well, let's dive in [00:01:00] because this is the question I feel like is going to open up so much. Number one, in one word, what is your purpose?
Kay Rodriguez: Belonging.
Kt McBratney: Say more. What does that mean to you?
Kay Rodriguez: I think that as humans, I, I don't like this. I know that as humans, we need belonging. We need belonging for survival. We need it for our own peace and happiness. We need it for our health and our prosperity. And because of things like social media, coupled with world events, like the pandemic, a lot of the belonging that we have historically experienced as humans has gone away.
And so, the purpose that I strive for every day, and the thing that gives me the most joy when I see it happening before my eyes, is bringing people together in a way that makes them feel like they belong [00:02:00] somewhere. That makes them feel welcome and accepted. That gives them a space to feel safe and a space where they can show up as they are in that day, in that moment.
Um, I believe everybody deserves to have that. And I don't think it's easy to find, especially in cities as things are today.
Kt McBratney: You know, we've talked about the. Kind of lack of, or transformation of third places before, where do you find belonging? Knowing it's such like this core purpose of yours and we live in a world where there aren't as many like shared third places where you can just be and feel, feel belonging.
Where's a place that you love and you always feel that?
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I'm sitting in it right now. Uh, I'm currently sitting in my climbing gym, BC Bouldering Project. Um, I have been a member here for about three years. I have been. I've been a contractor helper outer here for about [00:03:00] a year and I have really embedded myself into this community.
I've met a lot of my best friends through this place. I recently had a really difficult life event happen and the first place that I came was here because I knew that there would be a group of smiling faces and warm hugs waiting for me even if I showed up in tears. And I To go back to the point of belonging being a place where you can show up as you are in that moment, this is truly one of the places that I feel that way.
And I feel like even if, even if I show up unannounced, I will see a friendly face here who will brighten my day, even just 1%.
Kt McBratney: A climbing gym is a place where literally people will catch you. And it sounds like very much metaphorically as well, too.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah. Absolutely.
Kt McBratney: Now, you may, you mentioned that you, you know, recently had [00:04:00] a, a challenging life event, but I want to talk about a win.
What's been a most, like your most recent win, personal or professional?
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I'll go with a professional one. Um, we actually pivoted our business model for Outerly recently. Previously, we were a freemium app where people could sign up for the app and then upgrade to freemium. And we had a lot of initial interest for that app, but unfortunately couldn't really figure out the product market fit and the pull to get people to subscribe to freemium.
And so, went back to the drawing board, thought about our main core mission of bringing people together in nature. And said, do we need an app to do that? And so we took the app down, we spun up something on Typeform and Stripe and just the third party resources we had available to [00:05:00] match groups of people, small groups of people, for walks around their city.
We launched our very first walk on September 21st in Washington, D. C. We had 67 people buy tickets to that walk to get matched into their small groups. We sorted them into 11 different groups. And we had an overwhelmingly positive response. Um, I was at the end point for the walks, all of the different walks converged at a park in Central D.
C. And I was at the end point and the energy and the warmth and the excitement was indescribable. I was so blown away by how everybody just felt like they were glowing and everyone got their steps in, they got their sign. And the feeling, that feeling we get to replicate every single Saturday morning.
Now, um, tomorrow will be our third walk and we have 56 people signed up [00:06:00] across eight different groups and the pivots going really well from a revenue perspective. We are generating more revenue than we ever have in this given period of time. In the history of the company, we've had more pay individual paying customers, and we've had a higher Conversion from first purchase into a membership than we've ever had before.
So this pivot seems to be the one that's working the best. And this is a thread we're going to continue to pull. Um, because I think, I think it gets to the core of what we always wanted to do, which has never changed. It's just doing it in a way that's simple, that's easy, and that feels comfortable and safe for people.
And that it feels like the most massive win and truthfully. I don't even know that I've fully had the time to process and celebrate it as much as I should.
Kt McBratney: If I had the capability to insert a round of applause here like the old corny [00:07:00] morning show DJs, I would. Perhaps we'll do that in post. Because it's super worth celebrating and pivots can be hard and like, they're scary.
Because you don't know what you don't know.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I mean, all we knew the only data that we had was that. What we currently had in market was not working and was not going to be the answer to building a venture scale social impact and we've crunched the numbers i've gone through the financial model for this new pivot and I truly do believe that we can um A million, many millions of people who walk together as a ritual every single Saturday morning.
Kt McBratney: It sounds like there's a lot of challenges, you know, thinking about the problem space that you're in. Loneliness, isolation, mental health, physical wellness, access to the environment, right? There's public health threads [00:08:00] of that. There's also, you know, there's so many tangled up problems that are manifested in this, as it's been dubbed, the loneliness epidemic.
Um, and also access belonging, the outdoors, like that's a multifaceted like component too. So like you operate and live and just like personify the intersection of those worlds. And I say that not to butter you up, but to set context for this next, okay, maybe both, to set context for this next question.
But what's the single biggest, single biggest missed opportunity in your field?
Because,
Kt McBratney: I mean, how do you even define what your field is, knowing that you're a social impact company, but you're kind of partially an outdoors company, but you're an experience company, but you're a tech company, but you're a loneliness company, like, what is your field?
Let's start there.
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I, I would put a squarely in the wellness and [00:09:00] mental health field because the end goal For me, has always been to make nature, access to nature and doing it in a way that feels safe and easy, as easy as walking into a restaurant and ordering dinner. And so, the, the reason why that hasn't existed so far, and this gets into the thread of how wellness and mental health expand into the outdoors, and expand into public health, and expand into social, I think the biggest issue is that, For a long time, the outdoor industry has billed the outdoors as this highly technical, epic, hardcore, like, you gotta be strong, you gotta be fast, you gotta climb high, tall mountains, you have to do all of the crazy things, and as a result, a lot of the gear that existed in the market was very technical, and a lot of the advertising for companies in the outdoors was very, [00:10:00] almost elitist, in a way.
And so a lot of people And I felt like they do not belong in the outdoors. Oh, I can't hike 4, 000 feet of elevation gain in a day. That means I'm not a hiker. I can't climb 512. That means I'm not a climber. And I like you, it goes on and on. There's even a ton of like derogatory terms in the outdoors and any outdoor sport that people call newbies because it just wasn't a welcoming for a long time.
It wasn't a welcoming space. It was very gay. And so, for us, for me, going back to your original question, I think the single most missed opportunity here is actually bringing more people who haven't historically considered themselves outdoorsy into the outdoors in a way that makes them feel good, that gives them the benefits of being in nature [00:11:00] without having to force them into the outdoors.
Hiking Everest, or summiting a 14er, or, uh, you know, big waves, or whatever the crazy hardcore sport is. Um, you're still a snowboarder if you're snowboarding on the bunny hill. You're still a climber if you're on the V intros here at the gym. You are, you are what you want to be, and I think that similar to the way that nowadays we talk about identity and the things that you can claim as part of your identity, I think.
When it comes to the outdoors, you can claim whatever you are interested in and what you love. And it doesn't mean you have to be a certain level or you have to achieve a certain amount of rigor in that activity. It just means you do it. You show up like as you are in that moment and you do it. And we want to provide a space where anyone who has an idea in their head of, I want to be outside, [00:12:00] can come to one of our walks and they can be outside.
And they can be outdoorsy, and they can be other people who are outside and outdoorsy. And that's how the journey, that's how the journey starts for a lot of people. I'll just give a quick anecdote about that, um, or two quick anecdotes.
Kt McBratney: Sure.
Kay Rodriguez: The first is that, um, many people we talked to, we did tons of customer research for this company.
And many people we talked to said they got into the outdoors because they had a friend who brought them out or a family member who brought them out. If you grew up in a marginalized community where people weren't going outside, you don't have access to that. And so if you don't have access to that one person who said, I'm going to take you outside because it's amazing, then you probably haven't gone as much as you could or at all.
Which leads me to my second point. Uh, we did a large customer survey early, early on in the out early days, and we learned that about 75 percent of people don't, They can't go outside [00:13:00] regularly or as much as they want to because they can't find other people to go with them. So the problem that we're solving is not where to go or, you know, how to cater to this very technical, elite sector of the outdoor community.
It is how do we bring a person who's not going outside as much as they want to? outside to every single week to experience the benefit of being in nature for their health, their happiness, and for their social lives.
Kt McBratney: How do you address, then, there's two realities there at once, right? The fact that we are all beginners when we begin something, nobody, like, Starts a new activity.
What of any kind, not even necessarily outdoors, but like you have to be a beginner when you're starting something like, so that's true. And there's this like legacy of gatekeeping and a bit of elitism in, in the outdoors community or [00:14:00] commercial space. We'll say, how do you go about like being different when the, the precedent is almost like, I'm not supposed to be able to be welcome here.
Kay Rodriguez: Well, I think there's a couple ways we go about that. The first is language, the way we talk about it. I think that there is a lot of jargon and a lot of vocabulary that goes into the outdoors that can be learned over time. I mean, it's vocabulary, anyone can learn it, but that can feel exclusionary when somebody enters a space and doesn't know it.
Climbing has its own vocabulary that you may not know if you entered the space and you had nobody who was teaching you the ropes. And so we avoid. As much as possible, any sort of technical jargon in any of our communications or anything like that. The second thing is, we focus on an area [00:15:00] or on an activity that feels accessible to most people that maybe they don't even consider as an outdoor activity the way that it is.
Um, the recommended dosage of nature by many scientific studies is about 120 minutes per week. And 120 minutes being outside, not in an enclosed space, breathing fresh air, getting your vitamin D from the sun, like, being out in nature spaces. And so, we said, okay, well, what's something that people would feel very little friction doing and would feel very little friction doing in a social setting?
And walking seemed like the easiest thing. There's a lot of, like, There's a lot of social media trends right now going on about hospital walks, getting your steps, um, urban hiking. And so we said, okay, well, if people feel like walking is accessible to them, then we will, we will walk. That's how we're going to do.
[00:16:00] That's how we're going to be outside. And so we're, we started with walks. Walks are definitely going to be a core part of what we do for a long time. Um, and that's, that's purely so that we can. Make this feel very accessible, and it doesn't even necessarily feel like I'm going outside to be outdoorsy.
It's, I'm joining this so I can be part of a group of people, so I can meet people, and so I can get my snips in and get some sunshine. So, it's a win win win across all fronts.
Kt McBratney: And to your point, like, you don't have to go to a national park, or even a state park, or even a park to be outside. Like, literally just step outside your door, like, what you have around you is going to vary.
Right, but there's gonna be birds, there's, there's gonna be pigeons of some kind, squirrels of some kind if you're in North America, like, nature is around us all the time, we're just not necessarily always viewing it as that. Why do you think that is, that we have this like, association that it doesn't [00:17:00] count as being outdoorsy, or like, in terms of an activity, or it doesn't count as being like, in nature, if there's still some kind of like, urban, suburban, like, sign of human life, like, why do we feel like it's I'm going to get, I did not warn you I was going to get super philosophical, but it's super interesting, right?
Because like we are on the planet, we are in nature, but somehow we've thought of it as it only counts as nature if it's completely outside of how we're spending our quote unquote non nature time.
Kay Rodriguez: Right. Yeah. I think there are levels. So, I think that there are levels of nature exposure, and there are scientific studies that back this.
There's a really cool app called NatureDose that is run by a company called NatureQuant, and they basically can quantify, based on your GPS coordinates, whether you're outside or not. I use this app to track how much outside time I get every week, um, but I think they are able to actually tell you the level of nature [00:18:00] that you are in at any given point.
And so, I think that there are levels to nature exposure that definitely differ between the woods or a national park versus taking a walk down the sidewalk in a very urban space. However, getting any outdoor activity at all is better than not. You are still getting many of the benefits of fresh air, moving, being under the sun.
Being around whatever trees or grass, or to your point, even the weeds poking out of the sidewalk. Um, and I think part of that, part of the benefits are from those things directly. And part of the benefits are also just the ability to be present where you are. Notice those weeds poking out of the sidewalk or those bird squirrels scurrying around.
Um, notice how it feels to be somewhere that's not behind a screen. [00:19:00] And be present with the people around you. And that, that kind of environment is what we aim to cultivate for people. So that even if, let's say you go on our outerly walk and you don't meet somebody that you vibe with, you at least got your time outside.
You got some steps in, you got to be out in the sun and you took a break from your screen and that's a win in our book.
Kt McBratney: Speaking of wins, I want to flip it around the other direction. Cause I agree with everything you just said. When was the last time you were wrong
Kay Rodriguez: about anything? I think that the, our entire journey has been a series of wrongs.
The last time that we were wrong was probably in some ways the first walk that we did. Um, it went really well. We had great stats. We had great turnout. People overwhelmingly had a great time, but, um, [00:20:00] we got feedback from every single person and we learned a couple of things that we. Could do better to make people feel safer, to make people feel more heard.
Um, one of those things was suggested by, um, actually somebody who had reached out to me previously, um, about this and like she said, I'm a single mom. I really care about safety. I don't feel as safe if I don't know the first names of everybody who's going to be on the swap with me. I don't need all the information, you know, whatnot.
We want to keep everybody's personal information private, obviously. But I would feel a lot safer if I just knew a little tidbit about these people. And so we decided to launch, based on that feedback, we decided to launch names and pronouns of all of the groups before you meet up with them for a walk.
And that has gone really, really well. So our hypothesis was that we keep things under wraps to be mysterious and to make it a surprise. But in fact, I think a lot, a [00:21:00] lot of people feel safer and it becomes a more accessible experience when they know even just the small tidbit of what's a person's first name and what are their pronouns.
So, um, yeah, we were wrong in that hypothesis. I'll give, I will actually give one other example from our most recent pivot. Um, I thought that Saturday mornings were going to be the best time. I was like, I love Saturday mornings. I make my coffee. I go on a walk. Like Saturday mornings seem like the right time to do this.
We did an Instagram poll to find out if people wanted Saturday mornings. Um, based on actually, we had an open question box and somebody asked, are the walks always going to be on Saturdays? Are there going to be any other walks on different days? And I said, let's ask people how they feel about that. And so we asked people.
When they wanted to go on walks. And we actually learned that Saturdays are people's least favorite days to go on walks. So we have been, [00:22:00] we have been choosing a day of the week that actually works for the least number of people. So now we're going to be testing later in the month a couple of weekday evenings as well as a couple of Sundays to see if the turnout is better or different on those days.
So, um, we've been wrong a lot, but we listen very closely and we iterate quickly so that we can try and test whether the feedback we're getting is something that people want unilaterally.
Kt McBratney: That idea that like the journey is a series of being wrong and thinking about there are elements of a thing that can be very, very right while there also might be pieces that are wrong.
I think it's a really useful framing, especially for first time founders and like you, you've been a founder before. Um, but every time that you're building something new, it's the first time you're doing that. And that idea that like, it isn't a binary, it's never like, I 100 percent knocked this out of the park, or I 100 [00:23:00] percent quote unquote failed, is really interesting.
And thinking about it similar, in a similar way to the levels of nature exposure that you were thinking of, that you talked about earlier, this idea that like, there are levels of how correct our assumptions were. It's not just, we were wrong or we were right.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I think most things are a gradient, to be honest, and I think when you realize that a lot of the things that we do and that we strive for exist in the gray, it's a lot of, it's freeing in a way.
It, it makes, it makes achievement feel more accessible because it doesn't have to be a win or a loss. It can be, this went well, but these things didn't go well, and what can we learn from that? And I think this cycle of learning and the cycle of, honestly, like, Being self critical in a lot of ways and, and using the resources we have to validate that and improve it [00:24:00] is one of the most important skills and the important attributes of a good founder.
Um, otherwise, you're building in a vacuum without any input and that never goes well.
Kt McBratney: Now, you just said that you believe that most things don't happen in, in a, in a vacuum. A gradient in, in a gray area. Right. But my friend, I know that there are some things where you have very strongly held convictions, unwavering beliefs.
What's a hill you would die on?
Kay Rodriguez: Social media has divided humanity more than it has brought it together.
Kt McBratney: Whew. That's a big statement. Do you want to share any, any, any reasons or any why or any data? Or, you know, like you're using social media to, to build your business, right? It's one of your growth channels.
Kay Rodriguez: Yep.
Kt McBratney: So how is it tearing, like, how do you know, or what has informed that strongly held opinion, which, let the record show, I am not necessarily [00:25:00] challenging Kay on this. I'm digging in.
Kay Rodriguez: I, well, it's a hill I'll die on, so I will explain. Um, I don't think that social media was meant to be inherently bad for people.
I think that it was meant to give people a different way than email or phone or letters in the mail to connect. And I think in the beginning, in the early days of MySpace and Facebook, it was, it was very much like that. You only added people you knew, you only saw people that you knew on your feed, you got to choose, it was a chronological algorithm, if you can even call it that, like you could just see what was happening as it was happening.
And it was just another communication. But once we started, once social media started developing into more of this, Let me follow other people's lives, or let me aspire to be like another person. It created sort of like [00:26:00] inherent competition between people to only post good things, to only post wins, to only post, I'm excited to announce, LinkedIn posts, and to shy away from a lot of the things that make us human.
Being, making mistakes, hurting, Crying, um, having a hard time, missing people, um, feeling alone. Those are all things that, for a long time, weren't really acceptable to talk about on social media. And it's not just social media. I mean, even in professional spaces that's looked down upon, like there are a lot of things that society has done, but I think that that has choked our humanity in a way, especially digitally.
Even, you know, if you go on a dating app today, that is a highly curated version of a person that, it's just, it's like the cover of a book. You don't know what's in the book. [00:27:00] You don't know if the book even has any writing in it. You haven't opened it. You don't know anything. That's just what they want you to see to catch your eye.
And I think that the way that the algorithms have been built to generate attention and eyeballs and scroll forever, scroll forever, scroll forever, we've lost a lot of the sense of like, Like, the humanity, the human part of what makes us real and authentic. And this is why we, you know, ultimately decided to pivot away from just, just nap into like, Hey, we're going to connect you with a bunch of humans.
You're going to have to trust us and our algorithm to do that. You're not going to know who they are, but you're going to find out. You're going to be able to read the book when you go, when you show up for that walk, you're, you're going to see the cover, but you're going to see the cover as it shows up that day.
Not, not the one that they curate for you so that they can get more likes on Instagram.
Kt McBratney: It's, it's kind [00:28:00] of like the way that social media has evolved, right? And that's a fabulous critique of it. And, um, I'm here for that rabbit hole and we'll, we'll, uh, join you in that on a, on a separate occasion. Uh, but it's like social media today as we know it has evolved into something that doesn't, you know, Intentionally center belonging all the time, which of course that makes sense because that's your core purpose, right?
That's your motivating purpose is belonging. So where you see lots of time energy resources being poured into things Where that kind of counter that purpose it makes sense that you you have that strong conviction. Thank you for sharing that
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I think one other thing that I would just like to add on that is we do use social media I am NOT I will own that One of the things we really try to do though, and me personally, on LinkedIn or my own curriculum channels as well as as a company, is trying to slay those human [00:29:00] elements.
Like, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you will know that I talk so vulnerably about the startup journey, the times that I wanted to quit, the times when we ran out of money, the times when I built something that nobody wanted. The times when we had to pivot and put our tail between our legs and just do something else because what we were doing was not working.
And a lot of people have privately reached out to me and said, don't do that. Investors aren't going to like you. And I say back to that, that all of the investors that have invested in us actually really do like that. And that's why they invest is because there's a human here, a human who makes Owns up to them, learns from them, a human who cries.
And who laughs, um, but a human who's running a human centered company and a human who's building human powered tech. And I think in this age of AI and this age of influence, [00:30:00] We need more humans.
Kt McBratney: I mean, amen to that. And the follow up question is, how does this human, how do you, Kay? How do you play? Knowing that you work in, like, part of your work is getting out and being with people in nature.
What does play look like for you when you are not 51 percent thinking of outerly? Or more?
Kay Rodriguez: I love learning new skills. So, I think what I feel most engaged When I can either learn a new skill from scratch or when I'm so focused on something that I cannot think of anything else. So the first one is, um, what have I learned most recently?
I took a class recently, um, to learn how to lead climb, which for those of you who don't know what lead climbing is, it is jargon, um, when you climb outside and there's bolts in the rock, you can actually climb and set up the rope in So that [00:31:00] other people can climb normally into it. And so it's basically a more advanced form of top rope climbing with a common alpha gen.
Um, I took a class to learn how to lead climb and it was scary. Falling on a lead rope is really scary because you're falling like a lot of feet. Um, and you have to trust that your belayer is going to hit you. And I did that for me. I did it because I wanted to learn how to do it because I want to climb outside more because I knew it would be hard and that I'd have to learn how to fall and falling is scary.
And, um, I wanted to do something that was scary. And so that was a skill that I learned recently that I invested in. And I actually just went lead climbing last night with a few new friends. So, um, I, I enjoy learning a new skill. And then on the same thing, when you're on the wall, you can't think of other things or you're going to fall.
So it's, it's one of those faces back to the hole. I love the climbing den. Um, so. It's one of those spaces and one of those activities you just have to be present [00:32:00] and you have to be who you are, you have to show up who you are in that moment and just be with the wall and Are you, are you sensing it being here?
Kt McBratney: A
Kay Rodriguez: little bit, a little bit. It's almost like,
Kt McBratney: um, one, one thought that, that's, that stood out to me is like, you can't always fake it till you make it. And that's not always the best option or the safest or like, it can be more limiting than it's helpful, right? Like faking that you're an expert at something where it could be physically more challenging or like you won't learn the skill properly to try to pretend that you're an expert when you're not, right?
There's like inherent risk there. Uh, but also, you are not afraid of being a beginner at anything, are you?
Kay Rodriguez: No, I love it, actually. I love being a beginner. I love not knowing what's going on because, again, being a beginner at something and diving into a new skill puts you squarely in the gray. [00:33:00] You're like, I don't know where I'm at.
I am lost. I'm in the dark. What resources do I have to figure out how to navigate this? And I think all of us crazy startup founders have that same sort of like innate desire to like be put in the middle of this chaotic mess of like, I don't know what's going on and like sort through it and build it into something meaningful and powerful.
And I love doing that in my personal life. I love doing it in my professional life. I love talking through these types of things with my friends and my family because at the end of the day, learning new skills, building a company, all of that stuff, it's just problem solving. And. I will problem solve all of them.
Kt McBratney: And, and when it comes to that, you didn't know this question was coming, but thank you for setting up the segue so lovely. Um, you know, knowing that you're, you're problem solving ultimately, and a lot of times these are brand new problems or new contexts or a new challenge. How do you know what advice to take?
Because like, especially with first time founders or early stage founders or new [00:34:00] company founder, even if you've founded things before, whether you ask for it or not, everybody's going to give you advice. So how do you know what to take and what to, like, let fall off the proverbial rock face? Is that, is that accurate climbing lingo?
Kay Rodriguez: Hopefully no one's falling off of any rock faces,
but, um, yeah, I, this is actually a hilariously enough advice that I give to a lot of newer founders who ask me, like, what's your main advice for new founders? Be really choosy about the advice that you take and the feedback that you take. And I think maybe this isn't, like, the best answer, and maybe some people would argue this, but I think a lot of it is intuition.
And I think a lot of it is, I've been doing this for two years now, and I have talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people. I have done, I've built an app, I've taken it down, I built another app, took it down, [00:35:00] did something completely different. And I think when I think through feedback, I take the feedback and the advice.
that intuitively fits in with our guiding principle of connecting people outdoors. And so when somebody says, oh, it would be really cool if I'm going to make this up, like, it would be really cool if Outerly had bowling outing. I would say, yeah, it would be really cool. I don't think we're going to do that.
And I, it would be really great if you could find and here's some resources for maybe finding a bowling outing if you want it. Like, we are an out. outside company and we want to bring people outside. And so having, making sure that all the advice you take aligns with your own intuition as a founder, as well as your sort of guiding mission, Northstar.
I think that's the key to being choosy about the feedback you take.
Kt McBratney: Yeah. And the more [00:36:00] clarity and conviction you have around what that is, be it a mission that's formalized, a purpose, a guiding value. Uh, population that you've decided you want to serve in a certain way. Like that's almost like a shortcut anchor back to, to what matters.
And would you even say like a, in a, in a way it almost gives you permission to quickly let go of what doesn't align?
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah. And you have to say no to things. I mean, you can't be all things to all people. No company can, no product can, no person can. And
Kt McBratney: Hey, did you come on my podcast to completely read me?
I kid
Kay Rodriguez: a little bit. You know, we talked about reading people like books. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's having this, like, very strong conviction in this pool. And I think, like, the intuition and the conviction around North Star are, like, probably one in the same, honestly. [00:37:00] Um, one of those is just, like, now into, like, a sentence or a word format.
And one of those is just, like, in your gut, what do you feel? Like, how does it make your body feel when you react to it? And I think it answers all questions, truly. I don't think there's ever been a question that I didn't run through that filter, that didn't come out the other side better and more to align what we want to do.
Kt McBratney: And especially, like, this idea of saying no, like, fundamentally, You are just like factually correct. Um, I don't know if you've read the book, 4, 000 Weeks by, um, Oliver Berkman, I believe, but it talks about how like, essentially we all have 4, 000 weeks of life and like, you literally cannot say yes to everything.
Like we do have constraints, we do have constraints in this world. And I think if you work in the, well, if you have lived, worked in the startup industry or a lot of industries in our world, in our [00:38:00] culture, um, there's this idea of like growth at all costs, right? This infinite growth. Which has its purpose, like I understand the math of it, I work in Venture Capital, right?
And also, we live on planet Earth, and we live within time, and we live within human constraints, even when we augment them, or push them, or test them with technology or innovation and things like that, but like, at the end of the day, nobody can say yes to everything, even if they truly want to, and sometimes we know we don't want to say yes to it.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, I mean, to that point about scale and growth at all costs, I think, of course, you want to, you want to think about your company as a venture scale company, about reaching millions of people, about having that size, but a lot of times I find myself thinking about how did we influence every individual customer that have bought a [00:39:00] ticket and come on one of our walks?
Did we change their life for the better? Did they like us so much they decided to come on? Did they? Leave feedback that we can use and run through this filter that we can use to improve for all of the other moms out there or all of the other Barbara's out there. Um, and Yeah, I think there's there's obviously a purpose for the growth at all costs mindset or the move fast and break things mindset but I think there's also a lot of value in thinking about every individual that comes through your organization and the impact that you're having on a very micro scale and and I think that a lot of times in the startup world, we overlook.
Kt McBratney: You clearly care so much about what you're doing and why you're doing it. I could feel it through the screen, through the microphone. It's so encouraging. It's so exciting. I'm excited to be on this journey with [00:40:00] you, but we know it's not easy. We know it's not easy. What is, for our final question, what is the most challenging part of your job and what is like your absolute.
favorite thing, the best part that if you could do it all day long, you would, without a moment's hesitation.
Kay Rodriguez: The most challenging part of my job is separating K from outerly. And I don't do a great job of this, I will admit, right now. Um, because it is an area that I'm personally passionate about. And so
Kt McBratney: Well, it's hard.
I think I've been there. It's super hard when you're like, this is an extension of me. And also, I, I can't be it. It is independent of me.
Kay Rodriguez: Yeah, like I, and this is something that I continue to work on personally through journaling, through therapy, through conversation with other people around me, um, it's this idea that I am building [00:41:00] something and I'm putting a lot into it.
It is not me. If it doesn't go the way I want it to, it's not because Kay didn't go the way that she wanted to. It's not, it is a separate, But related entity to me and my soul and my life. And so trying really, I think the biggest challenge in the compartmentalization of things is just remembering to invest not just into the business and energy wise, financially, et cetera, but also into myself and my own growth.
Um, and then to the second part of your question, uh, what is the greatest thing that I would love to do all day?
My favorite thing in the world so far during this pivot has been, Watching the groups come in, knowing that all these people started off as strangers that morning, laughing, joking, exchanging numbers, talking about deep topics, [00:42:00] glowing in their faces. Like I mentioned at our first vlog, the energy was so palpable.
It was, I can't even describe how magical it felt to watch 11 groups of people from, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s. All the way down to people who are in college. Um, feeling the effect and the magical qualities of being outside with other people. I could do that all day. If I could just match people as strangers and see them turn into friends over the course of 10, 000 steps, every single day, I would do it.
Every single day.
Kt McBratney: Well, it sounds like you're on your way. Um, and that, that you really light up when you're witnessing this belonging that you and the Outerly team are, are creating. Like, that's real life tangible value. Um, okay, now's the time. You've talked about the walks. You've talked about Outerly. How can folks [00:43:00] find you, learn more, join a walk, and follow your journey?
Kay Rodriguez: We are at Outerly. co, that's our website. Um, we are only live in Washington, D. C., in the greater Washington, D. C. area currently as of. Fall 2024, um, but we hope to expand next year to several other cities. So I encourage you all to check it out Fill out our personality questionnaire. Let us know what city that you're in so we can hopefully come to you We get enough demand.
Um, you all do inform where we are going to go next So please put in a bid for your city and we'll let you know when we launch there.
Kt McBratney: All right. All you Atlanta folks, let's go on a walk. Let's fill out that form. We'll walk together.
Kay Rodriguez: Please do. Um, we also are on social media. I put my foot in my mouth, but you can find us on social media.
Kt McBratney: We can use it for good.
Kay Rodriguez: You can find me often crying or being very vulnerable on social media at Let's Get Outerly. Um, [00:44:00] I also post regularly, build in public updates about my startup on my personal LinkedIn. Just look up, Hey Rodriguez, utterly on LinkedIn and you'll find me. Um, and you can reach out via email.
I love hearing from you all. I love taking walks with you all if you're local or if we're in the same city. Um, I love hearing about how nature impacted your journey. So please feel free to email me at Kay, K A Y, at Outerly. co.
Kt McBratney: Awesome. Thank you for that. We're going to put all of those links in the show notes, make it easy for people to learn more, uh, to share their love of nature and to tap into a feeling and a purpose of belonging with you, Kay.
Thank you so much. Like I said, at the beginning, you were a breath of fresh air and this, this definitely like warmed my heart, got my brain turning in some really juicy ways and also has inspired me to close my laptop after this recording. Thank you And get thyself on a walk, if even for 10 minutes. So thank you.[00:45:00]
Kay Rodriguez: Excited for you. And thanks for having me today.
Kt McBratney: All right, take care everyone and go outside.
