Scott Wilcox | W Build

speaker-0: Mm. Scott Wilcox, welcome to the First Light podcast. Thanks for joining us. ⁓ for those listening, ⁓ Scott is the CEO founder of W Build and Elysium. Scott, welcome to the show.
speaker-1: James, thanks for having me. This space is beautiful and putting me to shame on my pod. We we need to up our game, so well
speaker-0: ⁓ you're welcome mate. Scott, can we just start by just give us a little intro to yourself and and then we'll talk about W Build and Elysium.
speaker-1: Sure. So I ⁓ have been involved in high end residential construction for fifteen years. ⁓ started quite early, started a business ⁓ called Dome with an ex business partner when I was twenty four. built that up, exited that business three years ago. Three years ago. ⁓ you know, ⁓ eighty, eighty, ninety staff doing sixty million bucks a year. 20 jobs at a time. So sort of learnt how to scale from we started ⁓ first job was a toilet block in Doherty's gym, ⁓ basically, and ⁓ and a and a little reno in in Brunswick and managed to to scale that to big business. And then we are at the at W Build Now, we are we are working on average build cost value home that we work on the moment is over ten million dollars per home. So really large homes ⁓ and across Australia. So working in Melbourne, Queensland, ⁓ we're currently doing some work in Perth and going into Sydney in the next few months.
speaker-0: That's brilliant, mate. Well done. Congratulations. we've been on that journey with you because we've worked closely together for you know ten years now, essentially, since S started. So thanks for your support. But it's been it's been awesome being part of that journey and seeing that and seeing you grow and and all that. So ⁓ on top of that, which we'll talk about later, you'd also starting Elysium, which we'll get into. Yep. ⁓ and you're also hosting a podcast, mate. Just for on the
speaker-1: Yeah, keeping busy. So yeah, look, I have a passion for technology and a passion for ⁓ talking. So we have a s a podcast called Built Scale that I do with Matt Perrot, ⁓ who runs a ⁓ construction AI software business out of Austin. ⁓ he's originally from Melbourne, they have an office here as well. and yeah, I I realize I'm trying to be really conscious ⁓ to not to to to ⁓ to sort of be not to b always be building. So a lot of us have a lot of consumption. And I'm trying to if I'm gonna have a consumption, it's conscious consumption. So I love a bottle of wine. To me that's conscious consumption, but scrolling on the internet for three hours is unconscious. So we've basically turned scrolling through a news feed into a deliverable being a podcast. So I'm really passionate about technology and how to leverage it. ⁓ so we've we've built a podcast out of our internet scrolling.
speaker-0: I love it. Ac I'm a listener. So ⁓ and I've learned a lot. That's actually super informative. So if you're listening, you should jump on to the we'll put a link, I guess, in the bottom. I haven't done that yet, but we'll put a link to the show in the in our podcast link. Okay, so back to ⁓ W Build mate. So in principle, yep. Strong statement. ⁓ tell us what it actually means to you at at W Build.
speaker-1: Fantastic, thank you. So W itself and the the the naming of it ⁓ was done with intent and the idea is that it's you know, the full stop at the end of the W is on purpose as well, 'cause it it just means certainty through complexity. We we are dealing with the most complex home projects on the planet. And we want and what I found is over fifteen years is you can meet billionaires and the best architects in the country. And they're all really vulnerable when it comes to selecting a builder and working with a builder because they've all got a horror story or a friend with a horror story. And you can't spend your way out of that problem. So the problems that homeowners ⁓ in Berwick are having on a three hundred thousand dollar Metricon home are the same problems that the people in Turax spending fifty million dollars are having with their builder. It's funny. The you cannot buy your way out of problematic builders.
speaker-0: I've never thought of that, it's true.
speaker-1: And build behaviour. So what we always tried to offer, and because I'm not a tradesman, ⁓ I've always come out of it from this per point of service. So, you know, we we walk into a McDonald's, ⁓ those who who go to McDonald's, and we spend a dollar on a soft serve, which might have been thirty cents for the last time someone had one. And we expect that person serving us to be polite and almost bride a white glove service, and yet there's builders out there try building twenty million dollar homes that are rude.
speaker-0: To call it a thirty seven.
speaker-1: to their cust to their customer and rude to the people and their suppliers and things like that. And so I've always come out of it from this position of service of, hey, if you if you want to build your dream home, ⁓ it should be a dream. The whole thing should just be like the best, the best thing we've ever done as a couple. so that's the idea of the W is the certainty can through complexity and the and the point of in principle, which is then ⁓ married with in practice later in our in our sort of brand identity. is in principle is about the architect's intent and the and matching that with the client's sort of dream, you imagine when you go to the start of that, or what I would call maybe the project vision. And the idea is that in principle means in principle this is what everyone wanted to do. And then so we celebrate the intent. And then on the back side of that in our in our copy is in practice and that's the execution layer. And that is how did we as a business take an input, apply logic, and then produce an output. And that process is sort of what our whole business is. And it's about making sure that whatever that dream and vision was, that it's executed to the you know with precision.
speaker-0: I love it. You've put a lot of thought into that, mate. And I can see it, you know, translates through to the team, th you know, to the branding, everything. I think it's it's been done very, very well.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's funny, when you whenever someone starts their first business, you're just like you start on this pod, you're just going on an adventure. What's really unique and when I started W was, you know, round two. How many people get to start again? And what I got out of it was I sort of almost interviewed all the stakeholders from my first ten years and told me what was good, what was bad. And then used that as the foundation layer.
speaker-0: It's yeah.
speaker-1: for the for the for the newer business. And it and it is true, you speak to business people or serial entrepreneurs that ⁓ are onto their second, third, and fourth venture, and you'll find that there's a consistency that cons ⁓ successful people can keep doing it and they can go again. And it's just from the lessons from the first time. But it does make you you you spend more time at the start worrying about the foundation layer as opposed to just jumping off the edge like you do the first time in that explorer. So you go from an explorer to you know, almost like a pilot who's on a route they've been on before.
speaker-0: Yeah. And you know the
speaker-1: Yeah, and you know how important that this initial vision of the company is because you've got communicate it through every staff member, every client, every stakeholder, every every subcontractor. ⁓ your com conversation with the community needs to be consistent from day one. And that's the way that you can actually scale a business because it's obvious. It's written on the wall, it's written in your email signature, there's no secrets. Everyone knows from the start ⁓ your positioning. so things like the tone of voice and stuff I think are really important.
speaker-0: Hmm, good. How soon do you I mean you've done a lot of work with repeat customers and architects over the years. How soon would you like to be engaged as a builder to work on that project? Yeah.
speaker-1: inception. The when when when the husband and wife have that first Chardonnay in summer and talk about what the beach house is gonna be, my my my the best moment for me would be to get the next call. ⁓ I think traditionally, I would say through my first 80% of my career, ⁓ it's always the first calls to an architect. And then at from then where it's like, you know, the best day for us to find out about the job was yesterday, but today's the next.
speaker-0: Sure.
speaker-1: today's the next best day. The biggest problems I see come from the late involvement of a builder, the running of the tender process, when the architect and the client invented a budget a year ago and now they get three prices back for ten million dollars and they had their budget was five. It's it's way too late. And there's no real successful outcome out of that position because everyone feels it's the whole project is just compromised from that point. So, and it's really hard for an architect to apply pricing, honest pricing to a client. Often the ones who do don't win the work because they've just come off a project, they say it's gonna be 10 million to build what you want, and the person who says it will be five gets the job. So you're not reward your incentive is not to be honest. ⁓ and I think that it really and and and and in fairness to the architect, they're not the one charging the client that amount. It's the builder. So the person involved should be a builder. so I think from our point of view, we want to be involved as early as possible. And what we're seeing in the market at the moment is post-COVID, everyone realizes that the probably the most important relationship in the end is is with the builder because that's the person they're spending the most amount of money with. That's where their list risk lies. So we're seeing this much more collaborative fashion or procurement attempt to bring a builder in early. And I think the right builders know how to perform in those situations.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ and we've spent my whole career ⁓ fine tuning that. But I'd say there are still a lot of builders that don't actually know how to add value at that point. They just like the idea of an early contractor involvement. It feels like it's less competitive. You we we do it, we don't charge anyone for it because I use it as a trust building exercise and a and a value adding exercise. And we still leave it open. If you want to spend six months with us and you still want to tender your project, that's fine.
speaker-0: Sure.
speaker-1: 'Cause I see that as now where our incentives are aligned. I've got I've got to show you that you don't need it. So and I think most of most outcomes are traditionally just ⁓ vision sent incentives systems pointed at an outcome. And I think I think that's you know, we we try and make sure that us and our clients and architects are all on the same incentive path. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Good, good way to approach it. And do you are you often in a position of having to let people down gently and saying, well, it's not gonna be five, it's gonna be ten or more? I mean, how do you that's a tough conversation. When they've got their heart set on this beautiful
speaker-1: Yeah. Look, I think it's it's almost my favorite conversation because I'm not technically like all of my competition, I would say ninety percent of them are carpenters who are great carpenters. So then they started a building company. They built the first couple of houses and because they were fastidious and you know, across detail and precision, they built beautiful homes and they scaled their business from ⁓ word of mouth. and their magic trick is they know how to build every part of a home. And that's really great. I think that matters in home building. ⁓ as a person who's not a carpenter, had a you know an indirect pathway to being a builder, ⁓ my magic trick is numbers. I I would be happy to say that there's no one in the country that can knows more about what it costs to build a luxury home, say over five million dollars than myself. So you get in that room and you are the expert. And I and I the way I talk to clients about it is like, would you argue with your surgeon over whether you need this surgery or not? Like so at so at that point I'm more than happy to have the conversation. And I know where we sit in the market. I know what their options are. And I know also the other thing that I think is helpful is I know how to get them to the number they want. So I can give them pathways. I'm not just someone that delivers the weather and says, bad luck, it's hot today, you've got a jacket on. ⁓ it's a pathway to to their outcome. They might just not like the pathway. Sure. And they're obviously open to go and explore with others, but I'm w we've I've had enough rounds that I know that when I'm delivering that, I'm delivering the best offer that we can put to them and ⁓ a logical pathway to get what they want.
speaker-0: Yeah. What to you, what's the difference between a well-considered home and a well-built home?
speaker-1: I would say the architecture. I've walked people through homes that are very well executed and the design is potentially not to that person's taste or and and design is subject subjective. ⁓ but I think you know the difference between someone spending five grand on a cheap drafty that's knocking out 300 designs a year compared to someone going to an elite architecture firm is probably what you're talking about, a well-considered home. ⁓ potentially it could come from the client's experience and them being well considered and knowing how to communicate what they want. But often I think good architecture like art, you shouldn't like it when you first see it. I think if any architect gives you a plan and straight away you're like, it's perfect, I love it, and they give you some renders mock up elevations, you're like, ⁓ my god, I'm just blown away. I love, love, love. You're not being challenged. So you probably shouldn't have gone to them. Because they're probably just drawing exactly what you told them. I think good architecture challenges you like art does, and you have to s sit with it for a few weeks. And then but then once you do understand it, you love it. And you love it forever. And and I think that's probably the difference where I see homes that are elevated to where even when I saw them, I was like, Woof. And like, you you go and I mean I've got a good relationship architect, I'm like, fucking hell, you've you'd and then you sit with it and then you build it and at the end you're sitting there at the dining room going, ⁓ my God, this like I this is why an elevation of experience that I couldn't have come up with.
speaker-0: myself. Yeah, yeah. That's the difference. And then sneakily I'm going to talk about lighting. So how does lighting impact some of the work you've done and you've seen and we've worked together, full disclosure, but you know, how does it ex make you feel in those those homes that are different?
speaker-1: Yeah, and I and I would say also the lighting culture of a nation, right? Like so I feel like Australia, ⁓ brought brought Eli from ⁓ B would always say to me, like, bloody Australians, they like they want to live in a fishbowl, you know, just as much glass as possible and four thousand down lights, and how can we just like shock our eyes every day? I wanna see the whole house from every corner I'm in. And I think, you know, we're maturing, ⁓ potentially as a nation and and potentially like shows like the block and stuff, everyone's, you know, starting to be exposed ⁓ to more sophisticated, you know, areas like lighting and what it can do. ⁓ but what I'd say is yeah, when when I started my career doing homes in in Brunswick, it w and for Troy, it was like, and this is 15 years ago, it was like I every room has to have six down lights. And they all also have to be twenty five dollars. And like I remember we had this ⁓ supplier was like sunny or something. Was it back then? And these and they all had to like you know just blend in with the white ceiling and like it was flat on, you know, no no recess or anything like that. SOS. And you know, and now I would say you know, most like like for instance to give you an idea of that, lighting plans used to just be a plan. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: Now I would find eighty percent of the lights I'm looking at are on joinery elevations. You know, because we're starting to look ⁓ at this non directional lighting and and mood mood lighting and stuff and I'll I'll criminally abuse some terms today. but so 'cause I'm 'cause I'm just a builder. But but but yeah, I'm I'm I I and I think that's almost I I think that's almost the the change in the architecture of lighting in Australia is it's now three dimensional and not two dimensional. And I think when I started it was really a two dimensional space and now it's a three dimensional space is probably the major change I've seen.
speaker-0: Good. It's still there. Like we still get those plans across our desks and, you know, we sort of help people and guide people. And when you get, you know, the mums and dads walk in with their plans and we take them on a bit of a journey here and we we show them why and you know, why it's important to not use that or not use it here and there. And once you see it, once you feel it. It's very different. It's it's it's you don't have to talk anymore about it. It's like we get it. Yeah. But unl unless you're seeing it on a plan and you're used to just saving a C of down lights, then it's just help. That's what people expect.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I and I think that unlock going from two dimensional thinking to three dimensional is you don't live into you live in your environment and your environment is around you. It's not being pushed down. And I and I think that's when you you have to as a builder, I assume as a designer or as a homeowner, ⁓ you have to really come to a space like where you are here.
speaker-0: From from above. Yeah.
speaker-1: And and it actually, like I said, it challenges you to go, ⁓ my God, I didn't even realise I needed this in my life. Yeah. It's so true. Like I I came up here today just with you and I was looking at your office lighting. ⁓ and now I feel like I'm running some sort of feral sweatshop in my office because we just moved into a building and it's like it's everything's just shining down on us and also n you know, no customizer everyone's dealing with the same light. And I've got fifteen staff that might have different wants and we're we're giving them one uniform option. So the same things, just less I I think all good craftsmen in our space and there's so much space for everyone to work in because there's so many things, really elevate you, you know, and you spend time with a professional and you're like, Okay, I'm now I'm now more conscious or better or more intelligent in that space after being with that person. and I think lighting is exactly the same.
speaker-0: That's great. I'm glad to think like that. That's good. That's good. little bit ⁓ and again, we've dealt with you for a long time. ⁓ you're renowned for getting your orders in really early because you don't want to deliver a project late. Is that across the board, that's a bit of a trick this of yours? Is that
speaker-1: Feel like if I was gonna pay you 10 grand to say something today, I would I won't for somebody said that. No, ⁓ look, to be to to to be known for that is great. ⁓ yeah, look, procurement, ⁓ once you live in the world of critical path, which is what all good project management is, and it's basically just fine-tuning your internal algorithm or focus on what needs to happen today for for that to happen tomorrow or down the track and what what is the true what is the truly most important thing that needs to be done today. ⁓ you work backwards from an outcome on site and most high end finishes have an extensive lead time because especially in our space, there's very little repetition. enormous amounts of customization. Yeah. Like every you'd say every house I work on is basically a prototype. There's no repetition, right? You might have an architect that repeats a skirting detail, or they like, you know, an architect that likes to use your lights. But I know the architects that are using your lights, every time I go to order them, I get that hold on, hold on, we're having a chat to James about this last little customization. Like, ⁓ well, this is gonna be the one thing we could just rinse and repeat from the last job. ⁓ which matters in the end. But what we need to do is we need to give time for those things to happen. Yeah. ⁓ for the outcome. Cause what you find is there's a lot of compromise that happens in construction from ⁓ I think builders and and other professionals not understanding critical path and not understanding appropriate lead times. and from our point of view, we go through a really, really basic formula, which is can I procure this today? And if the answer is yes, I want to procure it. The answer is no, it usually means it's in something called design resolution, which means are the client, the supplier, and the designer completely aligned on the outcome. And if they are, let's procure it. And if they aren't, let's let them know. You might not think we need to see this on site for six to twelve months, but we need to start now because we I want it. I want your lights sitting in a box on my site. minimum one month before I need to use them. So we can unbox them, have a look at them, meet the electrician. So we have a thing called a four-week look ahead. We meet with that trade on site in what I would call an airlock. And it's a handover from project management or office teams to the site manager. And that then is this transition of knowledge and IP to where the site manager, if it was in a manufacturing line, they pull the work in. So it's pushed in from the office. pulled in from a site management team, handed over to say, great, in four weeks' time, I'm gonna put these lights in, I can meet my Sparky, we all agree they're here. Great, I can book him in. And then when he gets to site, they're then ready to execute. Not doing that first, where are the lights?
speaker-0: On the day, they need to be installed. Somebody said that here.
speaker-1: Brought five electricians, we're at the lights. Yeah. ⁓ and this all just comes from, you know, I've probably on my first build, I probably got the electrician there and then asked him to pick the lights up from the local light shop on the way and then he got there and they went there. Yeah. You know, so none of this is ⁓ hasn't come from mistakes or fine-tuning a system over the course of 15 years. ⁓ but yeah, procurement, I think it's also between the two subjects you've brought up around early contractor involvement and adding actual value. finance and procurement, I think they are the actual keys to it to a good build. And I think I would almost be on an island thinking that. I think we all back what we're interested in. Sure. But I would say that our my competition would believe that the key to a good build is the execution on site. ⁓ but I think that that is always compromised by poor planning and procurement.
speaker-0: Okay. Give us a scenario of when ⁓ maybe they haven't arrived. Let let the end users know what happens. Like how does that implicate, you know, a a month or a week delay, how does that impact the site? 'Cause don't think people really get how much that flows on.
speaker-1: Well, I think as we've talked about, once you once you w once you change your thought about lighting from from two D to three D, it impacts you the the integration into the house is now becoming more and more pivotal. Like we just walk past basically a cast in in situ light in your showroom here and we've been doing them for five years. And they've been an absolute pain in the ass because we're basically building these forms by hand with carpenters, trying to integrate them into concrete that we're pouring, shot creating with a huge pump with, you know, a guy that may or may not have had like 13 drinks the night before. ⁓ You know, and and the render that the client's been shown is this perfect recessed box with this beautiful diffused light like pouring out and like the walls perfect and
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: you know, if that situation is not planned properly, it will not be executed properly. Yeah. So it's just now now lighting is becoming integrated into joinery, wall finishes, now structure. ⁓ I still think ⁓ the industry is catching up into, you know, how to actually implement this successfully. But you need to look at it very similarly to like with plumbing. you know A client might pick a Japanese Toto toilet ⁓ with all these bells and whistles on it. But when we're plumbing when we're pouring their concrete slab, I need to know exactly what tall it is. I need the specs for that taller because I've got a pipe coming through this concrete. Now, client not might not be moving to that house for two years and they're planning to cut a deal with Toto in twelve months' time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or make that final decision. So the friction that we have is often usually telling people it's time to make a call and them going, What do mean? You're you've just demolished the house. You're only doing concrete and you're going, no, no, it's time. So ⁓ all these things are just pushing in earlier conversations. But it's but it's cool because we're getting more ambitious with our with what we think we can do with lights and plumbing and mechanical and things like that.
speaker-0: Do you see lighting design or the lighting as a as a finish or f again from your perspective as a builder? I mean you've probably changed your perspective over the last fifteen years, but ⁓ is it it's finished or is it actually now part of it's very, very important part of the design from day one?
speaker-1: I think yeah, it's funny because it's not it's definitely not my responsibility. ⁓ I'm just trying to think of how how what my my my version of what that is. I would say that it's a really good question for an architect or an interior designer. However, when it's executed well, it's really known at Like when we hand the building over. You know, that that dusk or sorry that dawn project handover when we're all having a champagne. Yeah. And to me, it's just been two years of brutal execution. You sit there and you go, holy crap, like how good is this? And often there's often some really great architecture involved, but often the lighting
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: is really having its moment to shine, as corny as that sounds. No, no, it's but it's but and so to me, I'm a bit blinded to it. ⁓ because but I've seen it when with people who really care. So often I think the difference between sometimes architects and interior designers is an architect who's really concerned about the building envelope and about the architecture. ⁓ I would say they might have lighting budgets on a ten million dollar home of thirty to fifty grand. And then when I met with top-end interior designers, they've got a two million dollar reno and an eighty thousand dollar ⁓ lighting budget. And I think interior designers really understand what lighting does and architects try and rely on it less. They try and do it through the architecture. But you know, if you get a
speaker-0: Sure.
speaker-1: rock star interior designer like a a Hector Guthrie or a Flack or someone like that. I think, you know, even when we're going through a value management thing with a client, you'll see them like defending the lights. You know, like please don't get rid of that light. And it's always, you know, one of the first things to get attacked. And and often, you know, if you've got I'm being I'm ⁓ standardizing you, but say you've got the husbands being like, I'm not spending that. And then they're first and they'll go, what? Ten thousand dollars for that light. And ⁓ you know, it can sometimes feel like the first thing to go on the chopping block. But then once you finish a space, often the light in the in that room is the hero. Yeah. You know, and that's what makes everything it means you can spend less elsewhere. You can just paint the walls a simple color, you can just the furniture doesn't have to be too rock star because the light's doing a heavy lift. Yeah. So yeah.
speaker-0: no it's it's it's ⁓ such a good point, mate, because it can really make or break. You can you can spend ten million dollars at home, put in crap lights, and it'll look really average. Yep. Or you can spend two million dollars at home, really think about the lighting and it'll make it look ten times better.
speaker-1: And it's one of those things that the average person might not know why they love a space or why it feels like it's missing something.
speaker-0: Yeah. And that's and that's the feeling y we should be aiming for. So you should walk into a room, feel and not know what it is, but something feels good. Something feels really good. I feel comfortable here. And it's gonna be the lighting, it's gonna be, you know, everything else that's making in that space. But the lighting should be a a big part of that. Yeah. Yeah. Do you see do you see any common mistakes? We we'll move on from lighting in minute, but do you see any common mistakes with lighting
speaker-1: Completely.
speaker-0: regularly or things that could be better.
speaker-1: I see. I think we we are still just having this integration problem ⁓ around lighting integrated into different surfaces and what that means. So ⁓ like we do some joinery out of China, we do some joinery locally, but what we're seeing is that lighting's making its way into into every element of the house. Yeah. And There's a lot to go through to tell your client what they're actually getting. So we'll see that a client will open a cupboard and go, why is all these lights here? Or why are they there? Why are they on? Why are that were they not on? Yeah. Why aren't they here? Like why aren't they on this face of the journey instead of that? And you're now what you're doing, there's so many conversations to have with a client, I imagine, between designer and client. And that's the conversation that they said, let's just talk about it later. We're gonna put a bunch of LEDs in your journey. The other one is how lights interact with other surfaces and what that does to that surface. So you can have diffused lighting on a wall. But no that light doesn't get turned on towards the end of a job. And if say if it's a tiled wall with natural ceramics out of Japan that are waving everywhere, the client then goes, Why'd you tile my house like that? Look at this light is shining on all these imperfections. And then so that that discussion needs to happen when all that decision is made because the tile has laid them perfectly. That tile is meant to wave in and out because it was ⁓ you know ⁓ made as a ceramic and by the Japanese by hand. so but then so that that conversation needs to happen with the client that this is part of the house. We're celebrating, you know, the differences in those tiles. And but if you've got a client who just likes really straight things, then that light probably shouldn't be there or that tile shouldn't have been used. Yeah. So I think it's more just the education process around the integration into these vertical surfaces and making sure that everyone's aware of what that'll look like. Cause in the render it probably just looked like a shining light on a flat wall.
speaker-0: Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's part of, you know, whenever we get the opportunity to bring those clients through, we can explain those little details and why the LED's placed this far away from the wall or why it's this close or why we're grazing it, why we're washing it instead. All these little conversations, we can really you can see it instantly and it's not a hard conversation. It's very, very quick. They see it, they get it, signed off. ⁓ so you mentioned we'll work it out later. Like you can't always work it out later. Once it's cabled and done and you all of a sudden you want to dim it or switch it for two ways, that's a that's a tough thing. You you you can't get in. So that happens, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean electricians aren't cheap, ⁓ as a starting point. And the the the more that you lean into this stuff, I don't think it's the cost of the light that matters at that point. But once you've integrated into a surface, it's the preparation of that surface. Like you've got some really nice internally rendered polished plastered walls here. The Venetian plaster. ⁓ I know S like we have to show clients, this is what your Venetian plaster is, right? Like, do you like it? Yep, yep, I like it. Great. Now we're gonna diffuse light onto it. And they go, I didn't realise it had that much movement in it. Like, look, that looks like it looks like he's rendered that bit and not that bit. And you're like, No, that's that's the product. And they go, Well, yeah, but you showed me in daylight. You walked it out the front of my house, now you've shined diffused a light on it. So what we're finding, even with tiles, render, everything, is we're having to show people what their surfaces look like in all different types of lighting. So that they know that their house is not something they enjoy during the day and something they hate at night, or the opposite.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Good. It's ⁓ it's very important. Very, very important. Different light, different sources make and actually after the show I want to show you one little room we've just tricked up, just to show you a quick example of that. ⁓ talking about automation and integration. Yeah, can we move on to Elysium? Can you just tell us a little bit about Elysium?
speaker-1: Yeah, so this is what happens when ⁓ staff in my business, the team start executing really well and I can take my head out of the day-to-day building. ⁓ the nutty professor comes out. So ⁓ Elisian was bought out of ⁓ Stanford in California in Silicon Valley, Stanford University. ⁓ I went there for an innovation short course in ⁓ mid 2023. So we're six months post the release date of Chat GPT. But we're probably only two or three months into you know, the average Joe even knowing the name. Or we're we're around that stage. We're like, you know, does the local plumber even know what ChatGPT is, or do they hear someone talk about it? Yeah. But we're still pretty fresh on what I'd say this era of AI is. Anyway, so I went to Stanford and it was like going to I don't know, like the center of the universe. Because this place has basically spat out every software company, every company you can imagine, the founders either went there, dropped out of there, or you know, and then and then, you know, the lecturers, the people they had come in and talk to us. ⁓ it's where all the capital, all the VCs are, venture capitalists are that fund these companies. ⁓ it's where all of them are. And I went there and and and and basically got exposed to what's coming down the pipeline with AI and robotics. ⁓ And it was really inspiring time and and it made me it it sort of made me rethink the whole next step of my career and what technology how technology is gonna influence that. So came out of it ⁓ basically saying, look, I I just know that there's no industry more fragmented and more stuck in time than my own than construction. When when you go and buy a car, ⁓ you go buy a Tesla, or you go buy a Porsche, or you buy a a Holden or a Ford, you're not thinking about all the subcontractors involved, how hard it was to source a light. Yeah. You're just buying a product. Yeah. Construction is this like melting pot of fragmentation that everyone just puts up with. I guess you're gonna have to tell me about your four hundred contractors and your two hundred suppliers and I'm gonna go on this journey with you where you're gonna finish whenever you decide to finish and it's gonna cost me, I don't know. You know, there's no other industry. We just walk up. And I would say that, you know, electronics are probably, you know, 10 to 20 years ahead of cars, ⁓ in terms of like what an iPhone has become. ⁓ and cars, the automotive industry is probably ⁓ 30 years ahead of, you know, probably where construction construction is. But I I would look at it as Elysium where wanting to be almost the Tesla of the home. ⁓ so our ambition is to to build a completely autonomous home in the next decade. And what an autonomous home means is and also to have it be completely vertically integrated. So it's a product. It is not it it when you are living in that home, you are living in you're you're buying a product like buying a Tesla. it'll have a subscription model to like Teslas are now have or full self-driving autonomous. ⁓ and you, you know, you can subscribe to that and have updates over the air. And it just means that from that point you buy that piece of hardware being the home, but the software layer leverages all of the models. So we're not going to be competing with a Tesla. We're not competing with ch OpenAI or Claude or any of these. We're we're leveraging those models. So when they improve every month, your home should get smarter. And what it what it really the main like if I was just to boil it down is We're all still living in homes that, you know, apart from changing from candles to lights, the home is pretty similar ⁓ as it has been for a long time. ⁓ we're still maintaining it. Yeah, we're all still like we're like slaves to the home. And I just think that the relationship needs to change. The home should be looking after you. ⁓ and I think with ⁓ you know, longevity movement, ⁓ you know, people are wearing wearables now that are tracking you know, their health and stuff like that. But then they've still got this manual lift of they need to action something about that. ⁓ and I think that inside the home with the with the appropriate sensor architecture and spatial intelligence, that the home should be an environment ⁓ that knows who you are, knows how you're currently feeling, and knows how to address it and improve it, knows the moments. I think the other thing is like, At the moment, there's the all the biggest economies in the world are trying to take your ⁓ attention away, to take your presence away and draw you into a device like the attention economy. ⁓ I want to create an environment where your attention is given back to you. And I think that then you can be present. I think once you take away the chores of a home and the ⁓ the attention, the attack on your attention from the current software. ecosystem. I think you'll you there's an opportunity to improve like family health, divorce rates, a lot. I think there's a lot that can change there. And what it is is about, you know, let's automate the ordinary. Let's automate all the routine crap that you don't want to do to elevate the extraordinary, to elevate what it is to be human, what it is to be in a family, what it is to be present with your kids. Like my ten year goal on this, which is sort of fastly becoming like a five year goal, is I want to get it done before my daughters are teenagers. Do you know what I mean? Like I want to I want to have this deviceless future by the time they're 13. They're four and six now. Just so that, you know, I I'm not competing with with with ⁓ TikTok for my daughter's attention. because there wasn't a reason for her to have a device around because she can do everything. She can if she wants to listen to music, if she wants to talk to her friends, she can just say the word. Yeah. She can say the word
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: in the house and the house will will create that environment for her. so there's some timely goals around that for me as well.
speaker-0: Yeah. And there's all you know, the next step, you don't even have to say it. You'll watch or your you the the the home will sense it and say, Hey, Scott, you're feeling a bit down. I'm gonna put some some nice music on for you or you know.
speaker-1: Look, I I think I think Elon, ⁓ like most things, he's, you know, with Neuralink, ⁓ I think ⁓ the brain BCI, brain computer interface, ⁓ is going to get to a point at the moment, you know, it's something that's in a chip, but I think long term it's really going to be done over the air. So I think that kind of technology is gonna be the kind of thing that's in a home where you really just have to think something. and the action can take place with a with an AI logic running it in the background. You're outsourcing that. and then there's all kinds of things around privacy and thoughts. E every bit of data that we are doing with Elysium is going to be h on on premise. So heart on premise, not going to the internet. So completely private, but very similar to the privacy of a current home in terms of keeping people out. It it's all going to be locked down previous ⁓ privately. So that's that's something that's a real focus. But yeah, you're right. It's it's around just removing all the friction between thought and action.
speaker-0: Yep. So moving from a home that, you know, we control to then a home that almost controls us and you know.
speaker-1: Well I think I think control, you stay in control, but it's it's imagine when you when you go to see a show. There's a lot of like people in black t-shirts doing a lot of work behind the curtains and under the stage to make the show happen. Yeah. I th I look at a home as like we're the stars of the show. The performance is what the family or the person, how they experience the home and all the rest of it can be all those people on the stage and all the stuff in the background can be taken, can be dealt with with technology.
speaker-0: Yep. ⁓ so and that obviously leads into lighting, it really is into everything. It leads to the air con, ⁓ you know, sensors for just about everything, you know, coming home, you it's you know, you're around the street, it's gonna open the garage for you, it's gonna do all this amazing stuff that can almost do now, but this is the next level of really getting to know you, the family.
speaker-1: Yeah. I'd say I would say China is way out way past anywhere else in the West in terms of this. You've got companies that ⁓ like Xiaomi, ⁓ Huawei that are looking at automotive device ⁓ and smart intelligent home operating systems. But basically the idea being that you know you're driving a Huawei car, you've got a Huawei phone. And then they've got the Huawei Harmony operating system in the house. So they know when you're 10 minutes away, you're on a Huawei device, it knows all the meetings you went to that day. It's also probably connected to your note taker, so it knows if those were good or bad meetings. Yep. ⁓ it's got if you're wearing a Huawei watch, it knows your heart rate. And the idea has been you just then apply that to the home operating system and It should know what your personal preferences are and things like that. But idea is if you walk into a house where you have a diffused lighting setup that almost guides you to your your robe to drop your, you know, your bag off. And then it might suggest, hey, why don't you just jump in the sauna or something like that? You know, your your wife's not gonna be home for forty five minutes. Let's get the right music playing and I've turned the sauna on. Hab you know, get down there in 15 minutes kind of thing and all that kind of stuff. So I think there's a real opp opportunity that people haven't thought about yet. But it's that moment and everyone should try it, either, you know, when you're in the States, get in a Waymo, that first moment that the car without a driver takes you somewhere, you can never go back to again. ⁓ it's it's it's it's unbelievable. You sort of you press a button, a Jaguar gets to you.
speaker-0: Yeah. How was it? How was it?
speaker-1: picks you up, it says, Hi, Scotty. And then it it it says, all right, like it told a joke. It's like, hey, let's get the karaoke going. What song do you want? And it goes, I'll start. And it's then you're like, no, I don't want to sing karaoke. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, and then it just plays background music and you just instead of having a forced conversation or you're worried about, you know, is that guy having a good day, a bad day? How does the car even like smell and all that kind of stuff? It's just this completely customized to you, whatever you want. ⁓ you can go ahead and do and you just stop thinking about it. And I think driving is gonna be the same. We all think we like driving until you don't have to drive. You can get from A to B and you just work or have a conversation and switch off. ⁓ I think homes are gonna have that moment where, you know, I already know like I didn't I don't mind mowing the lawn when we had a beach house in Sorrento. I don't mind doing it, but everyone doesn't mind doing it until you're doing it. And your neighbour's having a Chardonnay with their wife and the robots mowing the lawn, you know? Yeah. And then or you know, for someone else, it's when your neighbor's cracking a beer, looking at his robot mow lawn itself, and you're sitting there with your hands on it vibrating, and you're like, ⁓ convince myself I'm I'm still the lawn mower guy. You know, like we all want it until we see it done ⁓ by someone else or by technology. And I think ⁓ home's gonna have that.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. ⁓ awesome mate. I'm ⁓ keen to be part of that journey here. So ⁓ we're gonna ⁓ duck into AI now. So your podcast is focused on AI and tech, and I'm a big fan, mate, I'm a big listener. So ⁓ learnt heaps and last weekend I built an app based on your conversation with Matt. Excellent. tell us a little bit about it and ⁓ and then I've got a few questions for you ⁓ based on that that might affect the audience.
speaker-1: So do you wanna where do you wanna start about the pod or about my thoughts on AI or what what do you think? ⁓
speaker-0: Well, the pod you told you actually told us about already is a bit of a ⁓ you know, you list of things and you decided to turn that into something like the show. Yep. ⁓ what are your thoughts on I AI?
speaker-1: my thoughts on AI are that it's the biggest industrial revolution ever. So bigger than the steam engine, bigger than the airplane, bigger than the computer itself. you pair it with robotics, I think you've got to look at them together. Robotics just being physical AI. It's just AI in the real world. So you can divide it up into bytes and atoms. So software is made up of bytes. ⁓ hardware in our physical reality is made up of atoms. ⁓ so that's how I divide AI AI and robotics. I think the reason being is because if we've been in this slow spiral that's slowly getting quicker, if you imagine like the shape of a galaxy or something like that, ⁓ we're about to enter the first time where the actual ⁓ re you know, the actual change in the industrial revolution, the actual ⁓ layer that we're now building will start to be able to run itself. Yep. So it's gonna speed itself up. And so all of the things that we've relied on humans to advance technology, I need to go to the toilet every four or five hours, right? I need to eat, I need to sleep. Technology doesn't need any of that. So the speed of movement we're about to get to, in terms of the feedback loop and the improvement of technology, is about to sort of go to warp speed if you're thinking about like a Star Wars movie. So I think my once you acknowledge that Then if you decide to ignore it and put your head in the sand, you know, similar to, you know, those who were running candle businesses when Thomas Edison was around. Sure. If they decided to ignore lighting, I'm not sure that was a great move. For those that were in the horse and cart business, there's a famous photo in New York of a bunch of horse and carts and that first Ford. T model driving through. Yeah. Now, if you're on the horse and cart and you're looking at the T model and going, dumb.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And you're twenty five years old. You're making a bad bet. You know, you need to be looking at that and going, Okay, I'm a I I'm I've got a horse carriage business or I work, you know, or I'm a horse. And the human relationship with a horse is about to change. It's no longer gonna be in our formal mode of transport. And I think right now, whether you're a tradesman, whether you're a lighting designer, if you're if you're not having an awareness of AI as a minimum If you're just head in the sand and it won't affect me, I think it's a really bad decision. ⁓ and no matter where you're at in life, because AI is gonna improve. I mean, they're folding proteins, they're they're getting rid of diseases with the use of AI at the moment. So we're all gonna be around probably a lot longer. So you can't have your if even if you're old and you're retired, you're still gonna probably be living longer. ⁓ and that's gonna mean you're gonna be in a world surrounded by AI. So there's no there's no ignoring. I don't think is an option. ⁓ and then I would say for people, when you distill that down, like we're trying to do in the pod, is okay, what does it what does it mean for me today, Scott? Great statement. Biggest thing ever. Congratulations. You know, but what are you actually doing? So for me, is I the reason we started the pod is because I was a little confused and trying to find my feet. And then I realized that I want to be at the cutting edge. ⁓ so my information diet is going to be this huge funnel, intake of information. And then I need to have a logic applied to it, like I was talking about in the business earlier. And then I need some something execute executable from it. So what's something practical I can actually do? And I think at the moment, people just need to decide where they think they're at in terms of the frontier. Because it's okay to be a laggard as long as you're saying, look, I'm gonna let other people deal with it. But once it gets to the iPhone level where where the where the friction for me is just picking it up and pressing a button, like saying, Hey Siri, do this for me. There's nothing wrong with that being where it gets practical for you. But you should still be across, you know, and so what I would is like listen to built to scale and have it all distilled for you over 60 minutes. but I think that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I still think that if you're running a business ⁓ that's not in frontier tech, that you should still concentrate on just running your business well. Yeah. Like executing traditional with business ⁓ with discipline is still the number one thing that matters.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: You know, just saying now we're pivoting to AI doesn't actually do anything. ⁓ but so all the same principles of running a business, getting to if you're a tradesman, getting to work on time and just doing your job well, that's all still we're still at a point in AI where all that is a hundred percent all that matters. ⁓ what we're doing differently is I look at my business now ⁓ as a set as a as a set of humans ⁓ working Coexisting in an organizational structure and an ecosystem. And we're building out systems that have been there to keep humans in line to and to be able to produce a very technical product at scale where there's thousands of decisions every day. And but we've built these systems around humans making those decisions and trying to give them parameters to make those decisions in between. The biggest change for me. is I'm re I'm I'm re-jigging the whole business to build systems that AI can run on the long term. Sure. So basically you've then got to have a think about instead of say you've got a task management software or a Slack or a WhatsApp group where you're running your business. But so for us we've got a task management software where every task in the business is visible to everyone. ⁓
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: And no and nothing, and the system produces to-do lists and tasks and and and humans traditionally ⁓ apply logic and solve that and complete that task. When you want to build a system that AI can run, you can't it can't you have to go from task to decision logic. And what that means is you go, say my thing was buy lights. Instead of having a task that just says procure lighting, I have to
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: label that like is like what's the logic behind buying that? So was there a budget? Was there a specification? ⁓ was there a delivery date? So all of that that we call almost common sense, if you're going to train an AI, all that actually needs to be written and outlined. So you you you just need to go from a mindset of task completing to decision logic. We use the same software. We just added a column and some tags. Yep.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: And then we just spend an extra 10 seconds writing why, why we did that task the way we did and tagging it in a certain way. And then we're running that through the business. I think we're gonna end up with, I think in our business we realize that everyone gets about 10 tasks done a day. We got 20 people in our organization at the moment. So that's 200 tasks a day, which is a thousand a week, which means we're gonna produce 50,000 tasks a year at our current size, which is growing. It's gonna grow probably 30% year on year. But 50,000 tasks a year, which is 50,000 rounds of decision logic, which by the time when the right tools come in, like a clawed cowork or something like that, or ⁓ you know, it was there was workflow builders like NADN previously, they we're then training them on 50,000 pieces of data. You can pound that over multiple years. You've got hundreds of thousands of tasks completed with the decision logic attached, which then is going to be quite easy for an AI to learn, pick up. and then start executing that on your behalf and automating those workflows. So just just small steps like that. ⁓ but it's but it's it is hard to build that into a business when people have got so much to do during the day that are really good at their job, craftsmen, guys, you know, who have been carpenters and now they're building houses and they've got to like life, you they're literally life and death, your safety and stuff. And you've got to find ways to meet people where they're at. That's what I find with technology is you as a if you're going to be spearheading the technology part of your business, you need to have a safe like sandpit where you can experiment and muck around yourself. Yeah. Not just start walking in and go, Everyone, by the way, we're now injecting AI to you know, do this and that's just that's a way to ruin your organization. And then just like proof points, prove it with yourself. I I suppose that's the num one piece of advice. Do it yourself. Yeah. Because then you can teach it.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: Yeah. And then start with a small group or one other person in your business. Then once you've got a proof point around three people, then roll it out to the next level. And just to make sure you don't have all you just so you're not distracting your organization from their actual outputs. Whereas you want to all technology should serve you. You should not be serving the technology. And I think there's an there's a potential problem with people ⁓ almost doing the opposite from automate the ordinary and elevate the extraordinary to humans are now doing repetitive stuff. And we've out repetitive stuff and we've outsourced our creativity to AI. Yes. To me, that's that's the worst version of it. Yeah. ⁓ whereas, you know, we've got a a button on our task management software called automate or elevate. And the idea is that every task you're working on, you get to choose whether it's something you love doing, which is elevate it, or it's you get to go, I hate this, and you press the automate button, which sends a link to our sort of technology and innovation team. This is what we want to be you to be working on, because we don't want to do it. And then you know then it's a self fulfilling feedback loop for the for the business.
speaker-0: That's awesome. Love that. What do you think ⁓ people are gonna be scared and people are gonna be a bit nervous and you know, builders and architects and everyone, this is g affects everyone, us. What do you think most you know the the pe the fear most feared thing about this is?
speaker-1: There's heaps of fear. I mean, just y you've got like last week we had these things called ClaudeBots online where basically a Russian hacker had built an AI that can sit on your MacBook or on your phone. Actually you sit it, you you put it you you you upload it to your Apple ecosystem and it's got a ⁓ all your data, all of your ⁓ Apple Pay, everything. And ⁓ but basically you're using it like like what Siri's meant to be. Hey, Siri. Go order me some go order me a pizza or you know, hey Siri, put a book in this meeting for me. What what Siri was always meant to be, yeah, this thing now is. But then in the meantime, ⁓ it went and s built itself a social media platform and a hundred thousand of these AIs signed up to the social media and they started talking about humans.
speaker-0: Right? Sure. Right.
speaker-1: And then as they were talking about humans, they started then trying to they they figured out a way to start copying themselves in case they're human shut them down. And then they started another page where they called it a rent a human page. So where they need things done in the physical world. Wow. So that then they can, you know, they wanna they wanna get A human to upgrade their computer, so how can I pay? You know, so so it's starting to get to that point. So that's that's potentially if it goes in the wrong direction, a dystopian style, you know, Terminator movie type thing. ⁓ so that's one fear people have. And then the other one everyone just thinks is like, am I am I is my job gonna be taken? Yeah. the first time I heard the term ⁓ AI is not gonna take your job, someone using AI is gonna take your job. I heard that at Stanford. In early 20 mi ⁓ mid 2023. And then I have heard it on every news program ever since. And I think it's still, in fairness, stand strong. this is a tool. It's a gonna be a powerful tool, and it's getting more powerful. ⁓ but very similar to it's not going to be strange to Gen Z and Generation Alpha the same way that you see three year olds that can operate iPads now.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Okay.
speaker-1: You know, it's it's it's it's gonna be super simple, but it's just about getting into a routine of looking at it like a phone or any other tool. ⁓ and I would say that the first thing that everyone should do is pick your model, open AI, Claude, ChatGBT, whatever it is, Gemini, download it and use it as a thought partner. Tell it. Talk to it about what you what's in your workday, ⁓ talk to about challenges, ask it questions, almost like an intelligent ⁓ assistant, but with all the in t all the information in the all of the history of humanity. So it's almost like a great assistant.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: With the power of Google, if that makes sense. ⁓ and I think that's just a great place to start because you could start problem solving. ⁓ and I and I see it in my organization, yeah, I'm starting to see the people that I know are using it because they're leveling up and they'll they'll have conversations with me that I just know they weren't capable of 12 months ago. And it's really allowing people to just to explore. things that they didn't even know they were capable of because you needed like it's like trying to learn piano without a piano teacher. Sure. You know, like self taught piano, like you just start hitting keys and, you know, you might get disgruntled and stop. But then if someone could if you could afford, you know, the best piano teacher in the world to be sitting next to you every second night, you're gonna get good at piano. And I think we've all now got that in our pocket.
speaker-0: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Mate, ⁓ yeah, exciting. Exciting times. ⁓ when ⁓ talking about that and now you're you know building homes and how are you future proofing or helping people future proof their home? Not for just for lighting, but for all this tech and things, things that aren't yet available. What are some things you might recommend for Archdex to think about now?
speaker-1: So I think across call it automation, that what we've had is we've had really dumb tech, really dumb, expensive, clunky tech put people off over the last twenty years. ⁓ we were talking earlier about C bus. ⁓ you know, never there it never have I met someone
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: you know, ⁓ sorry, C bus, but never have I met someone, you know, their holiday house down at Portsia and they ⁓ we've C bus down at Portsia and it's so good. I just I just get down to the holiday house and nothing's ever wrong and all that kind of stuff. So, ⁓ we've had this problem with the expectations of the technology and where the technology really was at. And then so I have homeowners ⁓ come to me now ⁓ saying, you know, what should I do? Like I can spend a quarter of a million dollars on automation. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Or I or some people who go, I just want to hit a light switch. And I get that. And that I just want to hit a light switch has come from the bad experience of the clunky automation that doesn't work that they spent 200 grand on. ⁓ so I'd say moving forward is we're still in this toddler to adolescence stage of the technology where someone like yourself and this office, you have a really cool system. ⁓ backed by some some great infrastructure layers that are open to customization and open to you being able to sit on top of that infrastructure layer and use something like the Apple Home Kit to control it, which is really really good UI. ⁓ so I think what I would tell people is, you know, before you make this major commitment ⁓ that Or on the side of caution, like don't just plug throw some automation in your home and spend a quarter of a million dollars unless you truly understand it. And then you've played with it, experienced it in a showroom, that you have trusted people, that you've asked questions like, you know, like like you're using K and X here. I think when I went to China and I went to an electronics conference there.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I was trying to look at like, okay, what's the infrastructure layer here? What's everyone sitting on top of? And everywhere I looked, there were little K and X logos everywhere. And then there was a bunch of Chinese companies putting wrappers on that with the user experience. You know, there's like dragons and shit going on everywhere. But I could see that the K and X looks been like the infrastructure layer, which is sort of like the Apple store. Sure. Do you know what I mean? Like ⁓ whatever apps you get from the Apple store doesn't matter. What matters is they've got you've got the Apple phone and the Apple store and the Apple I I OS or if you're choosing Google, you know, the Google side of that. so I think the main thing for people is don't go and spend a quarter of a million dollars something like you don't understand. Switching the lights on and off ⁓ for basically free is still very practical. ⁓ but if you're into it, you know, do do your research, understand the product, play with it, agree that you do love it, and then go and and then go and spend the money. ⁓ in terms of the apples, the Amazons, ⁓ of the world getting involved, which I think is gonna come down the line in in general home automation and lighting. And I don't think my gut feeling is that it's not gonna be it's not gonna need to be wired in the long term. Yeah. So I think people will be able to retrofit proper home intelligence later, ⁓ to a point where most people will be happy. Obviously at Elysium, we're the opposite side of that. We're going it's gonna be integral to the architecture of the home. But that's going to another level where you're trying to have an autonomous home. Yeah. ⁓ where I think I don't think you're gonna be able to retrofit what we're going to be able to do. So apologies, that's a long winded No, no, no, but yeah
speaker-0: Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's it's I mean it's you know, we're thinking what happens in ten or fifteen years after these people have moved in i i it's gonna be a retrofit solution then. But if they're doing something now that's gonna be out of date in a few years, that's something you gotta worry about.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'd be conscious of dropping six figures. I think that's the thing I'd tell people to be conscious of at the moment. Yep. That, you know, a a K and X system, ⁓ a K and X system with all the controls in the world run through an iPhone is a five figure system. So if you're looking at quotes for six figures in twenty twenty six, you just need to make sure that you are absolutely in love with what you're getting.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: And you understand
speaker-0: Yeah. And we often say people, if you if you're really techie, you love playing around with this stuff, go for gold. You'll have a ball. Yeah. But if you're not, you just want to move in and turn the lights on and have some scenes, you can still do that quite inexpensively with other systems. You don't have to spend that that kind of money unless you love it. If you love it, you'll have a ball.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and the parachute of having a a basic light switch for those moments when your phone's off. Yeah, yeah. And you need to turn a light on to find your phone. The light switch is still a very good tool.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. We we have no switches here and that problem presents itself every now and then. So, you know, we're trying to do a tour and it's like, it actually looks really good on, but yeah. ⁓ mate, we're gonna last a couple of questions for you. Thanks so much. We've gone a long, long time today. ⁓ what's one decision that's cheap early but costs a fortune later? What's one couple of gems that we can give?
speaker-1: Cheap early I would say basically every decision. The team the team that you choose for any project in life. There are obvious cheap cheaper decisions tugging at your heartstrings. ⁓ but sort of the old thing of pay peanuts and get monkeys is
speaker-0: Yeah. Sure. Is that the is that the is it paper musting as well?
speaker-1: I think I think that the start of any project or process starts with who am I doing it with. And there are still really great partners that are cheaper than really bad people, but that's pretty hard to find. ⁓ but a lot of planning needs to go into who you're working with, not what price are they. start with who. Then work out the number.
speaker-0: and what's something that you've changed your mind about in the last five years?
speaker-1: Great question. What is something I've changed my mind about? I've flipped forwards and backwards. on when building a company or a team. the mix of really experienced people versus young, fresh talent who know nothing but are happy to try anything. I built a business where the average age was probably twenty seven and that had an intensity and an energy to it that was pretty exhilarating.
speaker-0: Sure.
speaker-1: and came ⁓ I suppose with a lot of ⁓ maybe naivety. Yeah. and then I've built a business where I'm saying I only want to talk to the best and most experienced people and I want to package them up and ⁓ and then see what that looks like. So that, you know, every the every interaction with someone without business, they're dealing with someone that's at the top of their game, at the top of the industry. And that so no client, customer, or stakeholder or supplier feels like someone's learning on the job in their interaction. And I've landed in the middle of that I think the best thing is a mix in terms of culture and execution. This mix of experience, but this this the the energy of youth and the challenging of the norms and the ideas that come out of. a great culture from young people that haven't like I like I did when I started and challenged all the norms. Like why are you doing it that way? That's dumb. Have you seen this new tool that I, you know, like well show me. ⁓ but then also pairing that with the experience. And I I think experience is similar to a large language model to an LLM and AI. All it is is a a a package, a package of data ⁓ that's then been fine tuned by errors. by basically yes, no errors over the course of ten, twenty, thirty years. So that when that young person goes through that thing, you know, someone like yourself and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is where that leads. You know what I mean? Yeah, stop there. Stop there. ⁓ but I think that interaction ⁓ needs to happen. I think a a business that's too almost what you'd call top heavy, too many sort of old bulls running around the paddock, ⁓ and no fresh, young sort of talent challenging ideas and bringing energy and And just also even just being able to ⁓ complete basic tasks efficiently. Like if you're if you're paying someone over a hundred thousand dollars and they're doing some mundane repetitive work, you're probably not being able to deliver a product to a customer at the right price because of that. So I think that, you know, I've landed on that it's about like most things in life, finding a mix and and a balance. Yeah. And I've probably gone from I remember when I was younger going, I don't want to hire anyone over thirty five because how are they going to answer to a director who's twenty seven? Sure. You know, are they going to, you know, to say, no, I'm doing it my way, I don't want to follow because we were always challenging the norm. And then I've gone to the opposite end of the spectrum where I'm like, I don't wanna have you know, initially I don't wanna have anyone in here that's not an absolute expert. This is gonna be a company of of expertise, you know, channeled in at the top point one of percent of domestic construction and I think we got a little top heavy and we got a little you know just sort of like we we we didn't just do the easy stuff well. We started to overcomplicated things because there's so much bloody expertise in the room. And sometimes you just need some stuff to be done quickly. Yeah. and and then yeah and then now we've got this great mix. We've got some young people in our business doing twice two to three times the volume of people in my previous business who were very close to the top.
speaker-0: Imagine.
speaker-1: So you you ki you kit them up with the right experience around them and the right tools to use, and young people can really shock you with what can be done because they've grown up with these tools. It's a three year old with the iPad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, ⁓ and I think you get yourself like think about any of the administration in your business. You get yourself someone that's been into gaming their whole life and they'll do anything on a computer five times faster than you. And then once you lower your ego to say, ⁓ hold on. What do I what is my little section of expertise here? Like what is it? ⁓ like even for me, pricing homes, I always thought that was gonna be my thing. Well, I've trained a guy who's been out of uni for twelve months to do it. Do you know what I mean? There's no special like there's a magic you can convince yourself that there's something special going on. Yeah, but it's actually just a bunch of logic that needs to be put down in paper and then a young person will whip it out. They'll be able to do it for you at scale.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Is there a dream project? I haven't got that in the question. Was there a dream project you haven't worked on yet that you just like itching to get into? Some special build or a location or you know?
speaker-1: No, no, for me, ⁓ you know, My dream my dream is to be in complete control of the outcome of executing on my vision of what I think ⁓ the best homes in the world should look like and how they should be formed. And my dream is to be in complete control of that outcome, which means being completely vertically integrated and the only basically touch point for the customer. And We you'll see in our business we have multiple products coming out this year around if you imagine what the it's from that moment, that that glass of wine or that beer in the backyard, ⁓ when clients start thinking about a home to then post build living in that home ⁓ where we're planning on being around the whole time. So Yeah, it's so it's this lifelong relationship. ⁓ and we wanna be we wanna be the interface ⁓ between the customer and everything that happens in between.
speaker-0: That's awesome. Scott, thank you so much, mate. I think ⁓ we're gonna wrap it up. But I think ⁓ mate you've given us a lot of time and ⁓ really excited to have you on the show and ⁓ I'm excited about the future. Thanks, mate.
speaker-1: Awesome. Thanks for having me.