Saving School Libraries: A Churchill Fellow’s Global Tour

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So welcome to Engaging and Empowering School Libraries, the podcast that explores
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how school librarians can lead change, strengthen learning and make a real difference in education.
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Today, we're thrilled to be joined by somebody I met on her extraordinary journey,
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Claudine Crabtree, a passionate school librarian from New Zealand and a recipient
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of the Churchill Fellowship Grant.
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Her fellowship has taken her to Singapore, Scotland and England,
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where she's been investigating how school libraries around the world are impacting
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students' literacy and well-being and how that impact is being measured,
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supported and celebrated.
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She's met with an incredible range of people from researchers,
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writers, principals and librarians all working together to strengthen the links
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between school libraries, reading and learning.
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When we met, I was instantly inspired by her drive to raise the profile of school
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libraries and to bring what she learned back to make a real difference for students,
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not just in New Zealand, but globally.
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So we're really excited to have her share her insights, highlights and reflections
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from this once in a lifetime experience.
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Welcome, Claudine. I'm delighted to be able to talk to you again.
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And it's been such a long time, it feels, but so much has happened since I sat
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in a nice pub in York talking to you. Yes.
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So tell me, just for our listeners, where do you work and what do you do as
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a starting point? Kia ora.
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Kia ora from Aotearoa, New Zealand. And I work at a lovely school called Baradine College.
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And we are a state integrated Catholic girls high school.
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We have about 1,350 students from year seven up to year 13.
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And I'm the library manager here at Baradine and have been here for seven years.
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Okay. And have you always been a school librarian in school?
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No, I had a previous life as PA.
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So I kind of worked my way up from school and ended up working for us CEOs of
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companies and very much in the corporate world.
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And then my husband's a professional sailor so or was at the time so we we left
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New Zealand and I wasn't able to keep working which was quite nice and then
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we had our children they came home.
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And yeah I was basically full-time mum to them until I started working again
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yeah yeah so I I kind of fell into doing library work.
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Well, maybe not fell in, because I have always loved books, loved libraries, loved bookstores.
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And particularly when I was overseas and on my own quite a bit when Nick was
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working, I used to spend quite a bit of time working.
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Yeah, on my own. And so if I was feeling a little down, I would go to a bookshop
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or a library and basically hang out there for a little while,
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which instantly made me feel better.
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So, yeah. So when the boys were younger, I wanted to do something.
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I wanted to help. So I started with a reading program at the school in England
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where the boys were at the time.
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And that was great. Then I thought, oh, I'll help out in the library.
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That was also great, and there was a lovely lady called Jill there who was really
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friendly and happy to have me help her out.
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And I started wanting to make changes in the library, and she could see,
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I guess, that I was keen to progress things, and so I got a little part-time job there.
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And then when I came back, that's basically what I did over again.
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So I started helping at the school library and then got offered a job,
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and that's basically turned into a career.
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So, which I'm very happy about. I've got the best job in the whole world.
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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So, when I met you, you were on a tour of lots of interesting places because
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you had applied for the Churchill Fellowship.
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Yes. So explain to me and to everybody else, why did you apply for this fellowship
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and what did you hope to learn or achieve when you first signed?
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So when I started working in libraries, I was really, I guess,
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full of optimism about what I could do, what I could change,
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what needed to improve, how I'd go about that.
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But in the course of events, I obviously found out how...
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Tough it is out there for schools and for school libraries to exist and for
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librarians to be there as well.
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And so I started, I basically joined the School Library Association here in
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New Zealand and I'd previously obviously had some involvement or been a member
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of School Library Association UK.
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And I just thought, I've got to do something.
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This is not okay. Our kids are not accessing the library services that they need.
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Not every school has a library. In fact, in New Zealand, I think it's something
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like two-thirds of schools don't have a library and all the benefits that we
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know that those libraries provide and books provide and the spaces provide.
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So I started working more and more in the advocacy space and really pushing
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and determined to make things better and to get things changed.
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And as part of that, I was chair of the School Library Association here for about a year.
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And then I thought, no, I need to do something bigger, I guess.
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And so I applied for the Churchill Fellowship, which I found out about just kind of by Googling,
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actually, and thought it would be really interesting to see what other countries
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are doing in terms of their school libraries and where they're at,
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what they're doing to change things. Yeah.
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Potentially, obviously, what I can do here in Teoroa, New Zealand,
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to actually change things as well. And so that led me to apply for the Churchill grant.
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And amazingly, I got it. And I remember driving along the road when the representative
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rang me to let me know that I'd got the grant.
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And he said, you're the most enthusiastic. I've run so far.
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Yes. And I had to stop driving because I was just so excited.
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And I guess that excitement hasn't left me, to be honest.
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So was it always, did you have to travel with this money?
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Yes. That was part of the deal. You had to go in. Yeah.
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So the Churchill Fellowships, which are in the UK, Australia and New Zealand,
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and I think other countries as well, but those are the three kind of primary.
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And it was set up post-World War II.
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Yeah, it was fundraised for and then you can apply for a grant and it has to be for travel.
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So it has to be travel that benefits the country you're from,
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essentially, and you then, yeah, just prove your case.
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Obviously, there's a fairly lengthy application process.
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But, yeah, their goal is to basically improve the country that they're in,
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in some way, shape or form. So it doesn't have to be a library.
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I think I'm probably the first librarian to actually get it.
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And at least in New Zealand, I think in Australia, they've had some other librarians
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apply and be successful.
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But it's from every kind of walk of life, you know, every arena,
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every, yeah, every type of anything that will ultimately benefit the country.
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Yeah. But I suppose one of the questions that I've written down for you,
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but has sprung to mind is that,
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presumably you could decide how long you were going to take and your school
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had to give you the time off.
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Was that difficult or was that just it?
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No, because we have our long summer holidays and so I thought,
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look, I'll just have to go then.
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I don't want to impact my school year.
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So basically it was a, I guess you could call it a working holiday.
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So we are very lucky and get, you know, the six weeks at Christmas time,
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actually it's more like eight weeks, I think, at Christmas time.
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And over the summer, so I left New Year's Eve and I came back at the end of January, basically.
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So, yeah, so I had, I think it ended up being just nearly six weeks.
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So I stretched it out. Yeah, made the most of it.
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So now that you've seen several school libraries in different countries,
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What surprised you the most about how school libraries operate?
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You know, I've written about places like Singapore, Scotland and England.
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Yes. So, like it was quite disheartening in some ways, but also really uplifting in others.
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I was really upset to learn that in Scotland particularly,
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there's no primary school libraries or a lack of, a significant lack of them
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and librarians actually.
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And just everywhere I went, they talked about the lack of funding, lack of support,
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you know, and they're all trying so hard to do what they need to do for their
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schools and their students and not able to do all that they want to do because
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of a lack of one of, you know, the funding or the support,
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whether that's actually at the school or in a wider sense.
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So, yeah, not having primary school libraries in Scotland was probably the most shocking thing.
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Because to me, the primary school library is the one that we wouldn't ever get rid of,
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particularly, you know, here in New Zealand, because that's almost like a given
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here that you actually do have a primary school library.
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And of course, not every school does have a library, but it's expected, I guess.
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And we realised that obviously that's the time to hook them in and to really
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get them to love reading and books and the magic and the wonder and the use
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of imagination and all the joy that comes from those stories.
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Do primary school libraries have staff in them?
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Some do, some don't. Yeah, it depends.
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I mean, we have a lot of rural schools in New Zealand. I think it's about 60%
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of our schools are rural or small.
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So that's kind of under 200 students.
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So, you know, that in itself has obviously got some issues in terms of funding and employing,
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a librarian, and providing all the services that you'd want to.
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But, yeah, it's more common to have a primary school library than not.
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It's interesting because we are, I don't know if it's UK, is it UK or just England
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has got doing a push to put primary school libraries back? Is that right, Ruth?
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Yeah, just England. And I'm really interested because I don't know any,
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certainly no local primary schools around here with a librarian, let alone a library.
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And lots of them, lots of schools, there's been a big school rebuilding program,
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particularly primary school rebuilding program.
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They don't build them with capacity for a library.
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When my children's school was rebuilt, I went and saw the head because they had had,
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I mean, it was awful, but they had a space that they called the library.
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And he told me, no, they were going to have reading corners in every classroom
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for every year group, and that would be fine.
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And then nobody needed to curate those resources.
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Primary school libraries are extremely rare, I think, in England.
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And I know Scotland, they've got a massive problem with secondary school libraries as well.
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Bigger i think than ours i think they're
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closing more in but but then
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you know there are plenty of
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it's not uncommon for any school
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at any level not to have a librarian and
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certainly not to have a i would say it's interesting
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because daryl i'm not sure whether you know daryl claudine
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but from fossil she he's the creator of fossil a
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framework of skills from inquiry learning he always goes
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on about it being almost the wrong
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way around we we haven't built our
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foundation but you know every university has to
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have a library but actually if the if
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the bottom of it which is primary schools is is non-existent
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it's got nothing to build on has it you know and that's so true
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and I think that that's something that yeah I
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think there is a there is a push to put primary
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school libraries back but I think no staff
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yes no and no meat on those bones either
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as they're talking about you know every school will have
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a library but there's no definition of
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what a library is and since we don't have any libraries you know that's anybody's
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guess is that a box of books in a classroom or under a staircase or you know
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or is that a room or a collection that's been curated by somebody Even if it's
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centrally curated and sent out to schools.
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There's no school library service nationally.
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Yes, there is talk of it. I agree. And I'm, you know, that's positive in itself.
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At least it's on somebody's agenda.
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Yeah, what that means. Do you think any countries, did you experience anywhere
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that had got it right? Do you think?
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Not 100%. Not 100% right, yeah.
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I think Singapore is obviously doing a much better job in terms of they have
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a library in every state school.
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Yay again it's really interesting so I met Professor Lowe who has done lots
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and lots of research and actually lots with Teresa Kremen I think as well in
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the UK and about reading,
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about school libraries, about spaces, about,
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yeah engagement engaging teens in reading obviously about the Singapore,
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system and when I met her because I was obviously really encouraged that they
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do have a library in every state school in Singapore.
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And they do, from what I saw, they do obviously have libraries in every private school as well.
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If not one, then they have three or four.
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And still room for improvement in Singapore because one of the things they're
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actually looking at is making sure that they have a school librarian with all
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those schools that you think of when you think of a school librarian.
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So, you know, knowledge of books, knowledge of how the library space should
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work, collection, digital resources, you know, information literacy,
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well-being, all the things that we do and put together and work on.
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Because currently they have a library in every school with this amazing collection.
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And then they have a, I think they call it a clerical assistant or a,
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I don't call her or him a librarian. They basically are there to fill the shelf,
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you know, make sure the books are on the shelves to do the processing.
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To manage this kind of central system, the software, and that's about it.
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So it's very much a non-interactive role, but they've realised that that's a
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gap, that obviously they need, you need somebody who's pulling,
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who's collaborating, who's chatting, who's communicating, who's working with students and staff.
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So they are working on that, and Professor Lowe's next lot of research is,
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I think, targeting that.
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But it was still great to see a library in every state school.
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I mean, I only went to one, to be honest, because it's quite hard to get in there.
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But from what I saw and what I've heard talking to other librarians there,
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you know, it's obviously fantastic. and they're much more, like reading is everywhere there.
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It's not this thing that you kind of have to focus on because it's integrated
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into life like that or even school life.
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So at assemblies, if they've got five minutes and they're waiting for something, they'll read a book.
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Or if the class is finished and you can pick up your book and start reading.
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So they have like book vending machines. And it's just, yeah,
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it's not seen as this thing on the side.
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It's actually, yeah, part of life.
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And I think that's the other gold thing about Singapore. And that's probably
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why their literacy rates are very high, right?
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It would help. Here's where you were going.
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So, I wanted to go somewhere that was similar to New Zealand,
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but obviously it's still different, because I felt like from the research,
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and obviously I speak English, so it was going to be tricky to go to a country
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where I couldn't speak to the people I was seeing.
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And I wanted to go somewhere where, yeah, they've been doing lots of research,
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where it seems like they're very active in terms of changing things.
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So what are they doing about that? How are they going to do it? Who's involved?
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So that was part of the reason to come to England. Obviously,
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I'm semi-familiar with that environment as well.
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So I didn't feel like it was going to be too much of a learning leap as well.
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And then Singapore, because their literacy rates are at the top.
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England, Scotland and New Zealand are pretty similar. There is some variability
00:18:38.066 --> 00:18:42.086
there, but generally, yeah, about the same and obviously room for improvement.
00:18:42.086 --> 00:18:48.946
Whereas Singapore is just, you know, they're right at the top and PISA and Pearl's results.
00:18:49.326 --> 00:18:55.406
So, yeah, and I know obviously the people I spoke to there could speak to me.
00:18:55.806 --> 00:19:00.766
So that was, you know, I'm not a researcher so I needed it to be relatively
00:19:00.766 --> 00:19:02.726
easy in terms of that communication.
00:19:03.326 --> 00:19:06.606
So, yeah, so that's why I chose those.
00:19:06.846 --> 00:19:11.686
I want to go to other countries now but those were the ones that I chose.
00:19:12.086 --> 00:19:14.946
You've already mentioned literacy and wellbeing.
00:19:15.546 --> 00:19:21.206
What were some of the strongest examples you saw of libraries being effectively influencing both?
00:19:24.572 --> 00:19:30.192
Sadly, this is going to have a sad ending, but the story, but I met a fantastic
00:19:30.192 --> 00:19:35.172
librarian called Anise Sazak, who worked at St.
00:19:35.312 --> 00:19:37.732
Mungo's Academy in Glasgow in Scotland.
00:19:38.872 --> 00:19:46.932
And, you know, she was dealing with day-to-day violence, day-to-day issues with,
00:19:46.932 --> 00:19:51.512
you know, home life for the students that she was looking after and helping.
00:19:52.072 --> 00:19:56.172
So, you know, there's a lot of drugs in that area. There's poverty,
00:19:56.172 --> 00:20:03.052
all the challenges that you would kind of expect and that, which is not right
00:20:03.052 --> 00:20:07.052
at all, but, you know, that come with that socioeconomic area.
00:20:08.192 --> 00:20:13.872
And, gosh, she was trying to rise above it so much and she was really succeeding
00:20:13.872 --> 00:20:15.692
and helping and supporting.
00:20:16.172 --> 00:20:24.352
And she had, you know, she had this basically a room she'd tried her best and
00:20:24.352 --> 00:20:30.932
done these amazing displays and layout of shelving and posters and activities going on.
00:20:31.592 --> 00:20:36.892
She had a sign when I walked into the library she had a sign that said if the
00:20:36.892 --> 00:20:41.812
library's full or the library's full right now please come back later and I
00:20:41.812 --> 00:20:46.012
said to her how often does that happen that the library's full you know at lunchtime
00:20:46.012 --> 00:20:48.552
and she's like you know basically a lot,
00:20:49.192 --> 00:20:50.892
obviously often enough to have the sign.
00:20:51.152 --> 00:21:03.792
So really popular space to come to, and she'd made it this space where everybody could be together.
00:21:04.893 --> 00:21:10.973
To be equal, to have equal opportunities, to have access to the resources and
00:21:10.973 --> 00:21:12.413
services she was providing.
00:21:12.553 --> 00:21:15.233
She had jigsaw puzzles. She had obviously books.
00:21:15.513 --> 00:21:24.133
And she was really bubbly and very caring. And obviously she loved her job.
00:21:24.293 --> 00:21:27.613
She loved what she was doing. She loved being able to help those kids.
00:21:28.193 --> 00:21:33.793
So I found it really inspiring. I hadn't been in a school like that before either.
00:21:33.793 --> 00:21:38.653
So that was pretty amazing, the work that she was doing.
00:21:39.393 --> 00:21:44.113
Unfortunately, as you mentioned earlier with Scotland School Library,
00:21:44.253 --> 00:21:47.333
secondary school libraries, she has now lost her job.
00:21:47.893 --> 00:21:51.973
And I know there's a lot of secondary school libraries, if not all of them in
00:21:51.973 --> 00:21:56.553
Glasgow, that are closing or, you know, losing their staff at least.
00:21:57.173 --> 00:22:03.913
And I just, it's just so short-sighted and so damaging to those kids.
00:22:04.893 --> 00:22:09.253
It might be that one thing that they've got that day that really makes them
00:22:09.253 --> 00:22:18.213
feel good or where they go in and they can just relax or just spend time without
00:22:18.213 --> 00:22:20.813
somebody assessing them or testing them or...
00:22:22.042 --> 00:22:26.542
Judging them so yeah that's
00:22:26.542 --> 00:22:29.282
um that was heartbreaking to find out and i know she's got
00:22:29.282 --> 00:22:32.502
another job in library and libraries i'm
00:22:32.502 --> 00:22:35.582
not sure what off the top of my head but yeah i
00:22:35.582 --> 00:22:41.702
mean that's just terrible what's happening in glasgow yeah and and it is so
00:22:41.702 --> 00:22:49.942
short-sighted you know the impact on other staff that those students will then
00:22:49.942 --> 00:22:54.902
make because there isn't sympathy day in the library, supporting and looking after.
00:22:55.702 --> 00:22:57.822
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:22:59.762 --> 00:23:01.982
That's something that definitely needs to change.
00:23:04.462 --> 00:23:07.002
I was going to say, sorry, the other thing I was going to say about literacy
00:23:07.002 --> 00:23:16.002
is you have the MPQLL, National Professional Qualification for Literacy Leading Literacy.
00:23:17.442 --> 00:23:23.302
And I hadn't heard of that before. And obviously librarians lead literacy anyway
00:23:23.302 --> 00:23:24.802
in their library spaces.
00:23:25.542 --> 00:23:30.462
But having that qualification, and I met the lovely Brani Hart at Portsmouth
00:23:30.462 --> 00:23:34.902
Grammar School, who is the literacy lead there, and then she was working at
00:23:34.902 --> 00:23:37.842
the time with Carol Webb, Dr. Carol Webb, who's now retired.
00:23:38.142 --> 00:23:44.442
But the two of them were quite the force and amazing, really inspiring,
00:23:44.702 --> 00:23:48.982
very proactive, very, like, lots of great programs going on. They had...
00:23:49.419 --> 00:23:52.379
Senior students working one of the the morning
00:23:52.379 --> 00:23:55.699
that I was there they had a senior students working with junior students
00:23:55.699 --> 00:23:58.719
just in small groups looking at
00:23:58.719 --> 00:24:01.359
the cover of a book the first few pages of a book
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.139
and kind of just essentially just chatting about it but
00:24:04.139 --> 00:24:07.759
with some some questions and some lead in there and
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.819
yeah just lots of amazing ideas
00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.399
that I that I came away with to then either
00:24:14.399 --> 00:24:17.739
share or implement in my own library
00:24:17.739 --> 00:24:20.759
or with yeah and in New Zealand so
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.179
yeah so the the EPQ is
00:24:24.179 --> 00:24:28.659
interesting because that's it tends to be if I look again Ruth put me right
00:24:28.659 --> 00:24:34.839
year 12 yeah I don't think I'm not sure that's the right acronym the literacy
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:42.999
lead thing is a staff qualification yes yes the national qualification professional qualification yeah.
00:24:44.419 --> 00:24:48.819
EPQ is when they do the big project, isn't it? And they do self-led.
00:24:49.399 --> 00:24:53.859
Yeah, I think it's a national college of something.
00:24:54.419 --> 00:25:00.759
They're literary. But I'm interested to hear that librarians doing it or in
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:07.319
that role in school, because I think it's mostly English teachers, in my experience.
00:25:07.479 --> 00:25:11.919
Yes, yes, sorry. So Bryony is an English teacher, but she was working closely
00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:13.479
with Dr. Carol Webb, yes.
00:25:14.199 --> 00:25:18.759
So, but I thought that was really interesting and potentially something that could be interesting.
00:25:20.116 --> 00:25:23.276
Rolled out you know or or something for librarians to
00:25:23.276 --> 00:25:30.156
aspire to or be able to do would be fantastic as well i i suspect that you have
00:25:30.156 --> 00:25:35.116
to be a teacher i think it's a whatever they're called it's a tlr do you know
00:25:35.116 --> 00:25:40.596
tlr is elizabeth teacher with library responsibility no no.
00:25:42.796 --> 00:25:47.096
You can have a tlr for all sorts of things so your basic salary and then you
00:25:47.096 --> 00:25:50.176
might have a tlr or head of department.
00:25:50.796 --> 00:25:53.576
Yes, we'd call that a unit, a management unit, yes.
00:25:55.236 --> 00:26:02.596
And I think it's a pedagogy role rather than, you know, and therefore a librarian wouldn't fit.
00:26:02.776 --> 00:26:07.336
I wonder if, in my opinion, but I think that's the problem.
00:26:07.556 --> 00:26:11.956
I wonder if Dr. Carol has got a teaching qualification as well. I'm not so sure.
00:26:12.236 --> 00:26:16.416
She was my mentor for my fellowship, so I do know her a little bit.
00:26:16.416 --> 00:26:19.736
Yes, she's, yeah, very, very, very good.
00:26:19.816 --> 00:26:22.236
Very, very good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:26:24.656 --> 00:26:30.976
So I just want to lead on to things like measuring impact and policies and things
00:26:30.976 --> 00:26:32.396
that you might have come across.
00:26:32.856 --> 00:26:37.596
So measuring impact is always tricky, you know.
00:26:37.776 --> 00:26:41.156
How do we do it? What is value? Yeah.
00:26:41.875 --> 00:26:45.835
So how were the schools and librarians you visited capturing or providing their
00:26:45.835 --> 00:26:47.455
impact on literacy outcomes?
00:26:47.635 --> 00:26:52.695
Did you come across anything that was particularly inspiring or interesting
00:26:52.695 --> 00:26:56.515
or different that you noticed? Yeah.
00:26:57.215 --> 00:27:02.095
I guess one of the things is the visibility and, you know, you need to show
00:27:02.095 --> 00:27:04.335
that the impact that you're having.
00:27:04.655 --> 00:27:07.155
I think getting data is really tricky.
00:27:07.695 --> 00:27:11.015
Obviously, there are ways of doing that through a library management system
00:27:11.015 --> 00:27:16.975
or surveys and things like that or collecting anecdotal evidence.
00:27:18.455 --> 00:27:23.795
But there wasn't anything particularly that was super different to what we do
00:27:23.795 --> 00:27:26.535
or try to do in Aotearoa or New Zealand, no.
00:27:27.135 --> 00:27:33.995
And I think that's something that is really important and coming up with ways
00:27:33.995 --> 00:27:36.535
to do that would obviously be incredibly helpful.
00:27:37.575 --> 00:27:43.575
But there's so many other factors at play as well And so trying to get to pinpoint
00:27:43.575 --> 00:27:48.155
or to, you know, get that level of accuracy in terms of actually what the library,
00:27:48.395 --> 00:27:55.595
how it's impacting is tricky, as tricky here as it is in the UK.
00:27:56.035 --> 00:28:00.675
And Singapore, they have a lot of research going on.
00:28:01.275 --> 00:28:06.275
National Institute of Education does do and fund a lot of research about libraries
00:28:06.275 --> 00:28:10.915
and about reading engagement and things like that. And I know Professor Lowe
00:28:10.915 --> 00:28:13.955
is a very, you know, she's a very, what's the word,
00:28:15.157 --> 00:28:18.897
I was going to say affluent, but it's not right. You know, she's putting out
00:28:18.897 --> 00:28:22.257
a lot of stuff is what I'm trying to say. So a lot of research is coming out.
00:28:24.157 --> 00:28:31.297
So I think, yeah, there's room for improvement there and it is a tricky thing
00:28:31.297 --> 00:28:33.497
to do to measure your impact.
00:28:33.957 --> 00:28:36.377
So in other words, it's a tricky thing for anywhere, everywhere.
00:28:37.117 --> 00:28:42.117
Yes. It's not unique, which is good to hear, I think.
00:28:43.037 --> 00:28:46.057
Sorry i can't come up with something no it's
00:28:46.057 --> 00:28:48.857
fine so like we've talked a little
00:28:48.857 --> 00:28:57.797
bit about funding obviously it's bad across all areas i suppose but but discover
00:28:57.797 --> 00:29:03.677
there was any systems that are supporting school library libraries internationally
00:29:03.677 --> 00:29:06.677
did you notice that there was any policies or,
00:29:07.557 --> 00:29:12.157
funding that you had come across that was a bit unique or maybe not?
00:29:14.617 --> 00:29:19.897
I mean, I think Singapore with the funding, you know, very centralised there. It's very managed.
00:29:20.397 --> 00:29:25.157
The systems they have in terms of the software, its school levels are obviously,
00:29:25.177 --> 00:29:27.437
you know, paid for and covered by the government.
00:29:28.777 --> 00:29:34.057
Their funding, yeah, is a lot more controlled and centralised.
00:29:35.397 --> 00:29:40.837
So... So is that better in some ways, though, because everybody then presumably
00:29:40.837 --> 00:29:42.377
is using the same system.
00:29:43.197 --> 00:29:47.577
But if it's controlled, is there a problem? Is there a problem with it being controlled?
00:29:48.137 --> 00:29:52.377
I guess, you know, your own community. And I think that can be tricky if you
00:29:52.377 --> 00:30:00.437
want to then, you know, make your library to actually work for your community or for your,
00:30:00.697 --> 00:30:04.757
yeah, be more specific, I guess, to your area. Yeah.
00:30:05.245 --> 00:30:11.745
Then that is tricky because I think the only thing they can change on their OPEC is the front page.
00:30:12.345 --> 00:30:16.505
So everything else is pre-filled.
00:30:17.385 --> 00:30:20.965
Are they told which books they have to buy? Yeah, I don't know.
00:30:21.025 --> 00:30:25.145
I didn't actually ask that question. That would have been a good question. I suspect yes.
00:30:25.525 --> 00:30:29.285
I don't think there's a lot of choice because there's not a person there, right?
00:30:30.365 --> 00:30:36.545
So the only person that is there is the administrative assistant or clerical assistant person.
00:30:37.025 --> 00:30:40.565
But that will all come from them. There's no need for them to do that.
00:30:41.345 --> 00:30:46.465
Yeah. So the school that I went to, which was a state school,
00:30:46.685 --> 00:30:51.105
it was the School of the Arts. So obviously they are able to do some specialisation
00:30:51.105 --> 00:30:52.825
there because they're an arts school.
00:30:53.005 --> 00:30:58.045
So they do dance, drama, all the performing arts theatre, things like that.
00:30:58.045 --> 00:31:03.145
So they're slightly kind of to the side in terms of that.
00:31:04.345 --> 00:31:07.725
And I don't know for sure, and perhaps there's somebody out there who does know
00:31:07.725 --> 00:31:13.885
better than me, but I suspect that actually most of the collection is pre-bought,
00:31:14.105 --> 00:31:17.965
pre-decided by somebody else and then sent out to the schools.
00:31:17.965 --> 00:31:21.845
And it's already catalogued and it's already labelled and it's all ready to go.
00:31:22.325 --> 00:31:28.165
So that's, yeah. Because obviously what's great is there's funding and the funding
00:31:28.165 --> 00:31:30.065
goes to everybody and it's equal.
00:31:30.305 --> 00:31:35.645
There's that lovely equality there. But there's a flip side to that as well.
00:31:36.065 --> 00:31:37.805
So that's, yeah, not perfect.
00:31:38.345 --> 00:31:41.025
Go on then. And yeah.
00:31:41.625 --> 00:31:47.045
You said, Claudine, that they're talking about or they're thinking about whether
00:31:47.045 --> 00:31:49.145
they need librarians in all of those schools.
00:31:49.505 --> 00:31:55.105
It'll be interesting to see whether that level of control continues or whether, in fact.
00:31:56.090 --> 00:31:58.910
At the moment, that's a very expedient way to manage it.
00:31:58.990 --> 00:32:03.030
If you've got somebody in there who really is clerical, you don't want them
00:32:03.030 --> 00:32:07.730
controlling the catalogue, the bits of the catalogue that they don't want to control.
00:32:08.250 --> 00:32:12.910
Amending them is one thing. But if you then decide, if the government then decides
00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:16.630
that they want librarians in and they've really understood what that means,
00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:21.410
it'll be very interesting then to see how that develops and how those freedoms develop.
00:32:22.010 --> 00:32:26.870
It would be unusual, I would think, to get a group of librarians who didn't
00:32:26.870 --> 00:32:33.070
want to take some of that control back and to start being able to buy their own collections,
00:32:33.670 --> 00:32:38.590
and manage their OPACs and what they do more.
00:32:39.930 --> 00:32:43.650
Yes, and it will have a big impact. That's right, because it'll, yeah.
00:32:43.910 --> 00:32:49.870
I think they have like one qualified librarian per so many schools,
00:32:49.890 --> 00:32:53.610
and I have a feeling it's like one to five, but it could be less than that.
00:32:53.630 --> 00:32:57.370
It could be one to 20. I can't quite remember, there were stats thrown around at me, but...
00:32:58.656 --> 00:33:04.016
There is somebody who then obviously has some say if there was like the School
00:33:04.016 --> 00:33:06.336
of Arts where you need a bit more specialisation.
00:33:07.616 --> 00:33:10.976
So, yeah, I mean, having a librarian in every school,
00:33:11.476 --> 00:33:16.576
I think the thing they're concerned about and why they're actually doing more
00:33:16.576 --> 00:33:23.556
research into this is because it's great having a library and you've got the students and they read,
00:33:24.436 --> 00:33:30.856
but if they don't get time to go to the library And if teachers aren't collaborating with librarians,
00:33:31.176 --> 00:33:36.436
there's a big gap there because what happens is the students go in there,
00:33:36.476 --> 00:33:41.876
but they're not necessarily interacting with the resources and services because
00:33:41.876 --> 00:33:48.936
they haven't been taught how to or they haven't got somebody who's linking those things together.
00:33:50.116 --> 00:33:53.316
And yeah they're finding that actually the books
00:33:53.316 --> 00:33:56.276
or the resources they've got there aren't being
00:33:56.276 --> 00:34:00.096
used as much as they should because there isn't a person there who's doing that
00:34:00.096 --> 00:34:05.276
linking and i suppose once they then go on to university or higher education
00:34:05.276 --> 00:34:09.416
that there's a problem there isn't there because they they're not being taught
00:34:09.416 --> 00:34:14.696
how to use a library and the best so it's similar to the UK there that,
00:34:14.876 --> 00:34:19.356
you know, if you haven't got students who have a librarian,
00:34:19.776 --> 00:34:22.876
then the chances are they're not going to do as well because they're playing
00:34:22.876 --> 00:34:25.776
catch-up when they get to university. It's too difficult.
00:34:26.476 --> 00:34:31.076
Yeah. And it's, you know, it is things like I love murder mystery.
00:34:31.596 --> 00:34:34.656
What are the, can you recommend, you know, there's nobody doing that in the
00:34:34.656 --> 00:34:37.036
Singapore library at a state school.
00:34:37.696 --> 00:34:40.356
So that's a big gap because to me that's,
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:47.379
that is like the key part of our role is in a successful day is we've basically
00:34:47.379 --> 00:34:52.259
connected a student with a book that they enjoy and love and are getting all
00:34:52.259 --> 00:34:53.999
those amazing benefits from.
00:34:54.799 --> 00:34:57.899
But that's a successful, yeah, successful day.
00:34:59.459 --> 00:35:06.119
Let's move on to the people that you met. Can you think of any people or conversations
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:11.099
that you have that stick with you and if so, why? So many.
00:35:12.339 --> 00:35:18.379
Everybody that I met was so generous, including yourself, Elizabeth, with meeting me.
00:35:18.619 --> 00:35:22.319
They were very open and honest and engaged.
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:26.259
And I thought, well, yeah, we're super generous with their time.
00:35:26.319 --> 00:35:31.219
And I just got so much out of speaking to people because initially,
00:35:31.379 --> 00:35:35.019
before I actually applied for the grant, I thought I could probably do this online.
00:35:35.539 --> 00:35:40.999
I could probably just, you know, talk to people online. Why do I need to go? Yeah.
00:35:42.019 --> 00:35:46.019
And then when I was there, I thought, what was I thinking? Of course I can't
00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:53.279
do that because you have to be in the room with a person to get the vibe or
00:35:53.279 --> 00:35:55.299
the energy or the, I don't know what it is.
00:35:55.419 --> 00:36:00.959
It's, you know, it's one of those intangible things about meeting somebody and
00:36:00.959 --> 00:36:05.239
having a face-to-face conversation. and that was so good.
00:36:05.659 --> 00:36:09.679
It was, you know, it just made a huge difference and I loved,
00:36:09.919 --> 00:36:15.879
everybody I met was amazing and I guess the,
00:36:16.814 --> 00:36:20.754
ones that stand out to me. I met Damien Barr, who's a writer,
00:36:21.174 --> 00:36:27.754
and he hosts a great Scottish book club, I think it's called, in Scotland.
00:36:28.054 --> 00:36:34.214
And he was very enthusiastic and supportive of the roles that libraries and
00:36:34.214 --> 00:36:35.694
books had played in his life.
00:36:36.214 --> 00:36:38.394
So that was lovely. He was a
00:36:38.394 --> 00:36:42.014
really cool guy. I felt kind of cool just hanging out with him, actually.
00:36:42.474 --> 00:36:49.054
And I got to go to Brighton, which was very cool. And, yeah, he was just lovely.
00:36:49.754 --> 00:36:53.634
And we're still kind of connecting online, you know, texting and things, which is fantastic.
00:36:54.214 --> 00:36:57.654
Brian E. Hart and Carol Webb, who I've already mentioned.
00:36:58.214 --> 00:37:05.554
Anise Sazak, Professor Lo in Singapore, who was super engaging,
00:37:05.974 --> 00:37:09.814
super enthusiastic, super clever, very brainy.
00:37:11.334 --> 00:37:16.594
And National Literacy Trust I met Andrew Edinger and Jonathan Douglas,
00:37:17.494 --> 00:37:20.694
who are doing such amazing work
00:37:20.694 --> 00:37:26.574
in all these different spaces and places to do with literacy so I've taken away
00:37:26.574 --> 00:37:33.234
a lot of things that I've learnt and hope to do something with and hope to make
00:37:33.234 --> 00:37:38.854
some difference here also Gareth Ward who you might know Yeah,
00:37:39.594 --> 00:37:44.614
he, you know, he's got a tough, a tough role there.
00:37:45.034 --> 00:37:51.054
And again, another librarian who's probably being underestimated in the school
00:37:51.054 --> 00:37:56.854
in terms of the value and what he's providing to his students, which makes me sad.
00:37:56.994 --> 00:38:02.314
Like I want people like him to be just so richly rewarded for what they're doing
00:38:02.314 --> 00:38:03.854
because it's incredible. Yeah.
00:38:04.517 --> 00:38:08.097
And he's super passionate. He's got his hands in all sorts of pies,
00:38:08.317 --> 00:38:09.417
you know, doing all sorts of things.
00:38:10.057 --> 00:38:14.597
Was that Gareth Evans, did you say? Gareth Evans, sorry, not Gareth Evans.
00:38:14.817 --> 00:38:16.197
Well, the writer in New Zealand.
00:38:16.577 --> 00:38:19.697
Yeah, no, yeah. Gareth Evans. Yeah, great man.
00:38:20.537 --> 00:38:25.937
Yeah. So from all of that, after seeing what everything, you know,
00:38:26.017 --> 00:38:27.517
what do you think needs to change?
00:38:27.557 --> 00:38:30.417
Is it a mindset? Is it leadership? Or is it advocacy?
00:38:30.957 --> 00:38:32.657
Yeah, it's all of that. All of those.
00:38:35.737 --> 00:38:39.477
Yeah yeah uh yeah it's
00:38:39.477 --> 00:38:42.317
you know it's obviously not a one-stop no shop
00:38:42.317 --> 00:38:45.617
it's not a it's not one thing's not going to fix everything i
00:38:45.617 --> 00:38:48.317
think there is lots to
00:38:48.317 --> 00:38:51.997
be done in terms of the image perception visibility
00:38:51.997 --> 00:38:58.337
of libraries and librarians and i still think we get a bad rap or a negative
00:38:58.337 --> 00:39:04.037
of rap in terms of you know what and people don't know what you do and why you're
00:39:04.037 --> 00:39:09.637
important you have to tell them right and a lot of librarians particularly are
00:39:09.637 --> 00:39:11.497
reasonably quiet or understated.
00:39:12.677 --> 00:39:21.917
I'm not like that but you know I'm yeah a little bit different and I think we need to be louder,
00:39:23.017 --> 00:39:29.777
with what we, yeah, the value and service and what we provide in lots of ways.
00:39:29.917 --> 00:39:34.257
I mean, obviously research and things like that really help and advocacy,
00:39:34.897 --> 00:39:37.937
getting out there, yeah, shouting about what we do.
00:39:39.095 --> 00:39:42.855
Then there's also a funding model here in New Zealand.
00:39:43.295 --> 00:39:47.275
School libraries are funded from operational funding, so that means that,
00:39:47.475 --> 00:39:53.035
or an operational grant, so each school gets a pot of money that they then use
00:39:53.035 --> 00:39:56.615
for toilet paper and librarians,
00:39:57.435 --> 00:40:02.675
stationary, and the first aid kit, or whatever it is.
00:40:03.295 --> 00:40:05.415
We're lumped into that, and it's
00:40:05.415 --> 00:40:10.635
up to each school board and principle to decide how that money is spent.
00:40:11.215 --> 00:40:15.615
So there's no consistency here in New Zealand. There's no, or just not dissimilar
00:40:15.615 --> 00:40:19.355
to the UK, there's no standards or guidelines or.
00:40:20.424 --> 00:40:27.424
There's no minimum requirement. So you get a school library that has a librarian
00:40:27.424 --> 00:40:34.204
for five hours a week with 1,000 students and minimal funding for books.
00:40:34.324 --> 00:40:39.224
Then you get a school where I work, where there's two of us working full-time.
00:40:39.224 --> 00:40:44.164
We have a really good book budget. We're very well supported at school.
00:40:44.164 --> 00:40:47.204
And then I heard a librarian the other day who's
00:40:47.204 --> 00:40:50.364
at a primary school with 300 students with no book
00:40:50.364 --> 00:40:53.704
budget so she's got zero to spend on books so
00:40:53.704 --> 00:41:02.264
it's just there's no yeah no equity there's no consistency so that needs to
00:41:02.264 --> 00:41:06.244
change and that's obviously a really tricky thing because it's part of it was
00:41:06.244 --> 00:41:13.584
an act of parliament in 1988 I think it was that centralised that funding and then I'm sorry,
00:41:13.664 --> 00:41:16.544
decentralise the funding and yeah,
00:41:17.044 --> 00:41:19.644
but even the library is starting to really suffer.
00:41:20.004 --> 00:41:22.284
Does the school have to have a library? There isn't.
00:41:22.844 --> 00:41:28.504
Oh, so the money that the school is allowed to spend, that it spends on,
00:41:28.784 --> 00:41:33.524
effectively, and if it chooses to spend some of that on its library,
00:41:33.784 --> 00:41:37.064
that's entirely up to them. And the same with the library?
00:41:37.544 --> 00:41:41.044
Yes. So you're exactly the same as we are? Yes.
00:41:42.111 --> 00:41:48.491
Okay. So there is a requirement to have a library space at a school,
00:41:48.491 --> 00:41:52.111
but even then you don't have to use it as a library.
00:41:52.691 --> 00:41:57.711
So it's just a space requirement in the property law or in the school property
00:41:57.711 --> 00:42:00.911
act or whatever it is, that you have to have a space.
00:42:02.071 --> 00:42:06.431
But I'm saying that, and then I actually heard the other day from a headmaster
00:42:06.431 --> 00:42:11.791
or a principal of a school who was being built, and she was encouraged not to
00:42:11.791 --> 00:42:13.191
have a library space at all.
00:42:13.751 --> 00:42:18.331
She pushed against it, and she has a library, but that was a surprise to me.
00:42:18.511 --> 00:42:23.091
So as far as I'm aware, yeah, you have to have the space, but you don't actually
00:42:23.091 --> 00:42:28.451
have to have a library or a librarian. You have to have a space that's nominally
00:42:28.451 --> 00:42:32.791
for the library, but it in fact can be changing rooms or a bucket cupboard.
00:42:33.571 --> 00:42:36.131
Yes, or a resource room. Yeah.
00:42:40.051 --> 00:42:43.531
School libraries are world over by the sounds of things.
00:42:44.531 --> 00:42:48.751
Just before I ask you the final question about looking ahead,
00:42:50.251 --> 00:42:57.711
when you received the grant to go and do this did you have to come back and
00:42:57.711 --> 00:43:02.331
present anything or give anything or do anything to prove that you've done what
00:43:02.331 --> 00:43:06.971
you said you were going to with the money yes so you have to submit a report
00:43:06.971 --> 00:43:08.691
within six months of coming back,
00:43:09.658 --> 00:43:15.898
So I've done that now and I get to put two letters after my name, C-F. Wow.
00:43:16.758 --> 00:43:20.898
My husband, I don't think many people in New Zealand would know what that meant,
00:43:21.078 --> 00:43:29.778
but I was coming up with other acronyms like cool female or trying to think of one month.
00:43:30.138 --> 00:43:35.598
But yes, so you have to submit a report and that goes to the board and then
00:43:35.598 --> 00:43:40.438
they review it. And they did come back to me with some changes they wanted, which was great.
00:43:41.018 --> 00:43:49.458
So I did those and now submitted it. And I have had confirmation that I am now a Churchill Fellow.
00:43:49.698 --> 00:43:54.818
So that's great because that's part of what's for me. I think the really cool thing is about it is that,
00:43:55.812 --> 00:44:00.972
You're then part of a community and there's all these other people who have
00:44:00.972 --> 00:44:06.972
done this, who have, you know, who are church or fellows, but you're tapping into that community.
00:44:07.972 --> 00:44:12.072
And what I'm hoping is that because there's opportunities to get together and
00:44:12.072 --> 00:44:15.552
to share and to learn and there's obviously lots of not-for-profit or lots of
00:44:15.552 --> 00:44:20.872
charity organisations or incorporated societies doing really amazing work.
00:44:21.112 --> 00:44:25.292
And what's good is we can then share how we do that, how we make change,
00:44:25.292 --> 00:44:27.292
how we can improve our impact.
00:44:27.612 --> 00:44:32.052
And so for me, that's the bit I'm really excited about. Yeah.
00:44:32.972 --> 00:44:38.212
The report's not available yet publicly, but it will be. So I'll make sure to
00:44:38.212 --> 00:44:40.352
share it with you, Elizabeth, when it comes out.
00:44:41.712 --> 00:44:49.212
Oh, great. Okay, so final question. Looking ahead. Yes. How do you plan to use... The important bit.
00:44:51.492 --> 00:44:55.352
I mean, never mind what I did. It's all about what I'm going to do. Exactly.
00:44:56.192 --> 00:45:05.412
Yes. So already I have, I've actually had a meeting with, when I came back from the trip,
00:45:05.732 --> 00:45:09.192
I obviously, you know, there's been lots of communication, social media posts
00:45:09.192 --> 00:45:12.872
and things about it, my LinkedIn profile, et cetera, updated.
00:45:12.872 --> 00:45:19.572
And I have basically been annoying the education minister a lot and finally
00:45:19.572 --> 00:45:24.492
got a meeting with her kind of right-hand person, if you like,
00:45:24.672 --> 00:45:27.232
at the Beehive in Wellington, which is where government sits.
00:45:27.672 --> 00:45:35.732
So I have met with her, spoken to her, put across my thoughts and feelings and findings.
00:45:37.652 --> 00:45:43.072
So nothing's happened yet. But it's all these little things you start chipping away at,
00:45:43.812 --> 00:45:48.332
you know it's not we have a hair product ad here that says it's not going to
00:45:48.332 --> 00:45:52.472
happen overnight but it will happen and I'm kind of hanging on to that and we've
00:45:52.472 --> 00:45:58.772
just got to chip away at it and try and make a difference where you can and.
00:46:00.564 --> 00:46:06.564
I've done a radio interview. I have set up a website called Schools Need Libraries,
00:46:06.904 --> 00:46:10.144
which everyone's welcome to have a look at.
00:46:10.424 --> 00:46:12.764
Work in progress, but it's there.
00:46:14.024 --> 00:46:21.584
And I've been elected onto the IFLA School Libraries section. So that's exciting too.
00:46:22.584 --> 00:46:25.884
That just happened recently and we've started our first meeting.
00:46:26.184 --> 00:46:28.704
So the second one actually I think is this week.
00:46:29.864 --> 00:46:34.324
So I'm really excited about that, actually. And then there's various articles
00:46:34.324 --> 00:46:35.604
and things that I've written,
00:46:36.204 --> 00:46:40.984
some that are still to come out, an article for School Library Association UK,
00:46:41.564 --> 00:46:47.204
I'm hoping to write, or, you know, we'll do soon, a webinar, and,
00:46:47.804 --> 00:46:52.184
I mean, I think the key thing is to keep advocating.
00:46:53.744 --> 00:46:58.004
And I actually just met in Wellington on Wednesday.
00:46:58.004 --> 00:47:01.724
There was a big meeting with various stakeholders who were involved in school
00:47:01.724 --> 00:47:06.304
libraries, including the National Library, IFLA, school principals,
00:47:07.304 --> 00:47:11.864
there was READ New Zealand, you know, various organisations as well were represented.
00:47:11.864 --> 00:47:14.724
So there was about 30 of us, I think, all together.
00:47:15.024 --> 00:47:22.484
And so that was a day of sharing, learning, thinking about what we can do to
00:47:22.484 --> 00:47:25.264
actually make, get change happening.
00:47:25.724 --> 00:47:27.844
So that's a brilliant start.
00:47:28.384 --> 00:47:32.684
And, you know, to watch the space and next steps to come out.
00:47:32.864 --> 00:47:35.504
We need some planning and things. So, yeah.
00:47:36.044 --> 00:47:40.124
So I'm excited about that as well. It sounds like it has opened quite a few
00:47:40.124 --> 00:47:42.544
doors for you, which is really exciting.
00:47:43.604 --> 00:47:47.144
Yes, it has. And, you know, part of the process, I think, is –.
00:47:49.196 --> 00:47:53.316
As much as it is what you learn, it's about those that you meet.
00:47:54.056 --> 00:47:58.476
And I think, you know, like you said, it's interesting, isn't it?
00:47:58.556 --> 00:48:02.396
Because we live in an online world these days, but actually it is that human
00:48:02.396 --> 00:48:04.176
contact that makes such a difference.
00:48:04.976 --> 00:48:09.516
Huge difference. Yes. Yeah. It's been fascinating.
00:48:10.076 --> 00:48:14.176
Fascinating talking to you, Claudine, yet again. I'm going to bring this to
00:48:14.176 --> 00:48:16.856
a close and just say thank you very much for joining me.
00:48:16.856 --> 00:48:21.596
And we managed to get the the time difference so it wasn't so bad it's it's
00:48:21.596 --> 00:48:25.756
nine o'clock for us now and it's what 10 o'clock in the morning for you now
00:48:25.756 --> 00:48:29.136
so yes very reasonable very respectable,
00:48:31.976 --> 00:48:35.996
so thank you again as always if anything we've talked about will be in the show
00:48:35.996 --> 00:48:39.216
let's be know so if you've got any of those links claudia do send them to me
00:48:39.216 --> 00:48:42.996
and i will put them in the show notes if you'd like to comment on anything you've
00:48:42.996 --> 00:48:47.396
heard today we'd love to hear your thoughts don't forget to subscribe to my
00:48:47.396 --> 00:48:51.936
podcast so you don't miss out on future discussions thank you very much for listening.