Daniel Kelly and Lucy Cowling: I Didn't Know Curating Was a Job, Recorded Live During a Haircut

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So, what what what was that?
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Lucy's here.
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Okay, let's go.
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Okay, Lucy, what would you like to do with your hair today?
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Um, I want to go back to a classic pixie.
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Oh wow, okay.
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All the way short again.
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Um, my one concern is what that will how that will work with the roots, whether I'm gonna end up with a bit of a halo.
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Yeah.
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A slightly red halo, and if that's actually quite a bad idea.
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But I really enjoyed having it like properly short, and I don't actually think I stuck with it long enough before it started growing out again.
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So I thought before I get beyond this stage and never go back up, it's uh it's the time, I think.
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Exciting today, okay, yeah.
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So a bit of a restart today.
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So you you're kind of ready to leave the salon with it feeling really different.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, fantastic.
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I like I like a transformational haircut.
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And on a scale of one to ten, how different do you want it to feel?
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If like ten is eight.
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Pretty, pretty, pretty bold.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, fantastic moves.
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Um, okay, and how have you found it having it a bit longer?
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Uh good.
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It's really come into its own now with uh now that it's a little bit more on one level, and I'm starting to get some waves in it and everything.
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It's like yeah, it's been really nice.
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I think there's always I think I styled out the slightly awkward in between pretty well.
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Uh but I was I was happy this was what I was trying to grow it out to.
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That's so funny.
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I got there, and now I'm like, what's next?
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Back to where I started.
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Oh, cool.
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Well, thank you for uh trusting me to do it.
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I'm very excited about that.
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So you've had short hair before, and that wasn't very long ago.
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It was about a year ago.
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It was about a year ago.
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Okay, cool.
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Yeah, so and how did you manage with the styling of it when it was short?
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I loved it, it was so simple.
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I thought the upkeep would be much more intense than it was.
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It was kind of great because I didn't have any kind of bed head.
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It was just like ready to go, and it was, you know, a hairstyle without I just had to like ru my fingers through the fringe and I was I was done and it looked great.
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So yeah, it was it was perfect.
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Yeah, shorter hair, definitely really easy to look after, right?
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And generally once people have gone short, they're you know, you don't want to like grow it out, or if you do, you end up maybe going back.
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Yeah, because you can see it a bit now, right?
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It's been rained on one side's going one way and one side's going the other way, and it is does my it can tend to get quite unwieldy with bits sticking out, yeah.
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Which is a great thing.
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Like I said, I love the waves and I love the movement, but um it needs it needs more styling, and I don't love doing that.
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No, you're so you're quite low maintenance with the style, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So the a as you just described, the haircut is much easier to look after, um, super quick to style, doesn't really take much, you can reset it very easily, but it does require a bit more maintenance as in the cut.
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So obviously the shorter you go, the more you're gonna notice it growing up.
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So rather than coming back every probably ten or twelve weeks, which I guess is what you've been doing as you're growing it out, or two months if you're maintaining a haircut around this length, it's more like five or six weeks, yeah.
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And you'll because you'll really notice it if we're gonna depending on how short we're gonna go, obviously, the shorter it is, the um the more you're gonna notice it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it's way easier to look after in style, and you can have a lot more fun with it, and there's so much you can do around that length as well.
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You know, it doesn't have to be um sort of like just cook cookie cutter.
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Um, we can really change it up.
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Okay, so yeah, you you understand the style, and have you got some products for still?
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Yeah, yeah, what have you been using?
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Um I have a well, when it was getting a tiny bit longer, I was using the Davenus like wet look to to change it up with kind of slicking it back or styling it in a particular direction.
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Um when it was like really, really short, I just left it as it was, but and then now I put like a a kind of moulding thing in.
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So yeah, I don't know if there's anything that you recommend for the like when it is like pixie short to help with the styling.
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It depends on the finish you want.
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So with my hair, I don't like too anything too heavy.
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Um, so the the waxes can be a bit too much for me.
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Um, but some other people really like having it sort of moulded into place.
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Uh personally, I would go for like a leave-in conditioner or a sea salt spray or dry shampoo.
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Got that.
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Like that sort of stuff works quite well.
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You can dry that into your hair when it's damp, and it'll just give it a little bit of texture, it'll stop it from looking too like fluffy and fresh, uh, but you can still move your uh hair around, and it's good if you're uh doing sport and stuff and washing it a lot, so you can have just a like a little uh squirt of that on every time, and it'll mean your hair looks intentional.
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Yeah, it's not gonna just look fluffy and all over the place, it'll look intentional, but it'll be quite easy to look after.
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So something like that would work really well.
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And if you um yeah, bringing us on to the colour, the you are gonna depends how short you want to go, so maybe we should talk about that first.
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So, in terms of the the the shape, obviously a pixie can mean quite a lot of things.
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In my mind, I'll just talk you through what that is.
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So, like classically, you're gonna probably gonna be quite neat in the back, clean sort of hairline there, we could it graduate it through the fingers, maybe maintaining a little bit more softness over the ears, depending on how we wanted it there, and then like a square shape here, so it builds up a little bit of weight that has a bit of a fringe that sort of flops around.
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So just what would happen with that?
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I'm just like thinking as I'm talking now about where that line might form, depending on it, let's see where your roots are up to.
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How long has it been since you had it coloured?
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It was October.
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So we're now February, November, December, January.
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So three months.
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It does or it doesn't.
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No.
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No.
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I I waited for years to have long hair and then I at some point I gave up because it's never long enough.
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But like it does grow slowly.
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My comb's got uh rulers on, it's four centimetres it's grown.
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Four three and a half months.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So a centimetre a month.
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Yeah, it's quite slow.
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Usually it's the they say it's like half an inch per month on average.
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But I've never actually used the measure on my uh comb before.
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So there you go.
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Another gadget.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um so I've told you what like classically what a pixie is, but um I feel like I should ask you like what it is in your mind as well.
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I had in mind.
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Kind of buzzed at the bottom, getting slightly longer towards the top, little fringe, yeah, coming down a bit around the ear.
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Um, and yes, heavier on top than on the than on the bottom, sort of following the shape brown, but that's exactly it.
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I think I also couldn't quite imagine where the like where the line would sit and whether I would end up with the root kind of uh it becoming a more obvious like root halo.
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Um I think you should always do the haircut you want and worry about the colour later.
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Yeah, this way.
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Because you can always colour it.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I was like, if that bit doesn't work out, I hope hopefully it's a way of also just like um yeah, going back to brown over over time.
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Okay, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Obviously, mine is bleached, and um I really like what happens with mine.
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So I'll bleach it and then I'll next time I cut it, I end up with a line around about here where it's a bit longer.
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And I I have quite a bit of grey here, so my hair is mousy brown naturally, and then I get grey, and then we get a bleach, and then they all sort of blend together quite nicely.
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Um and then generally the next haircut, if I've not bleached it by then, then you end up with tips, just with like blonde tips.
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So and and I often say to clients when they're coming in and talking about you know colouring short hair, you can get like three different looks from just one colour, and so that might be half a year, and you colour it, you only need to colour it twice per year, you know, and then you're gonna get a whole different kind of looks.
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And so I would say the same with you.
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Um I think let's have a look at your face shape.
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Your face shape oval-ish, would you say?
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Yeah.
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I mean there's no hard and fast rule to it.
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There's a bit of square, yeah, a little bit.
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A little bit of squareness and a little bit of oval.
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Rectangle.
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But somewhere somewhere in between those two, I would say.
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Um so generally the I mean, I always say these things aren't set in stering, but like the theory goes that actually a bit of hair around your face here will be complementary for you.
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Something that's opening that up will also work quite well.
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Um whereas you might want to avoid, you know, a micro fringe.
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Because that's good, that would like elongate your face.
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Yeah.
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I have but it's what you're it's what you feel comfortable with.
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Yeah, I have had them in the past, I've always quite enjoyed them.
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The other issue there is that there's a um what is it, a a lick or a crown?
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Which there's a it splits anyway.
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Yeah, okay.
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Well, yeah, I would say we break that fridge up, have that sort of swooping across to the side.
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I think that'll work quite nicely.
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Opening up a little bit here to sort of like show off a bit more of the width of your face, and then just having like little bits that are sitting forward.
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Um, so probably does that sound okay?
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Yep, that's like impossible to say.
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I think you're probably gonna end up with a bit of colour there at the front.
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Yeah.
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And so we're probably gonna have a line, something like around the nape area here, where that'll be darker getting into a bit more colour.
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It's fairly thick your hair, isn't it?
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So we can have quite a bit of fun sort of really thinning that out.
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I think that'll work really nicely.
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Um and and that'll work also complement the colour and having the roots, you know?
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Yeah.
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Because we're gonna be you're probably gonna be in the tips sort of stage on top, I would say.
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Yeah.
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So it's probably most of the hair is gonna be dark, so there'd be like a bit of that warmth, and the colour's fairly subtle anyway.
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Yeah, it's blending in really nicely.
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If you think sorry, if you think we're gonna like slice through that, um, you'll have like a real choppy depth to it.
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Nice.
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I'm sorry, what did you say then?
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Yeah, I said it's it's blended in really nicely as it's sort of all the colours fade start to fade a bit, but yeah.
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Yeah, cool.
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And then we yeah, we can make a decision on what you want to do with the colour afterwards.
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There, and we've spoken about the styling, we've spoken about the colour maintenance, yeah.
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Uh about six weeks really, and you'll probably notice it will start to grow out, especially with the hair being thicker from there.
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Um is everything okay with your scalp?
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Is that itchy or anything?
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No, I'm fine.
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Good.
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Um fantastic.
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Alright, so just to recap, if you're sick of having it long, you're just growing it out, it's a lot to manage, it's quite thick.
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Um, so you want to go back to easy life.
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So we're gonna be taking a lot off with eight out of ten restyle down to a pixie clean through the uh hairline at the back, leaving some softness over the ears and softness like sitting onto the face, and then little sort of soft, sweepy, fringy bits at the front, and probably gonna be looking at um a bit of the colour left on the tips, but we're gonna really break that out so that we when we put some wax on it, we can see some real depth and dimension to the haircut.
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That sound okay?
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:38.879
That sounds great.
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Alrighty, so what we're gonna do now is head over to the basin and wash it.
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So please follow me.
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Do you need anything?
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.519
I'm all good.
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:17.519
Yeah, just let me know if you need to press you.
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So thank you for agreeing to sit down with me, Lucy.
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Thanks for having me.
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Very excited to have you here as the first full-on video recorded uh DKUK podcast, and I wanted to start by asking you what was your earliest memory of your first encounter with art?
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Um I have I guess I've got my parents to thank me for that.
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I don't know necessarily my earliest encounter, but we my siblings and I would get dragged around museums from a very, very early age, and it took a while until I actually appreciated it.
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Like I always if if we were gonna go, I always wanted to go to like the science museum or somewhere where you could essentially play within the exhibit, and I know for ages I thought art museums were really boring, but I guess it it rubbed off eventually.
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There's a a lot of incredible museums um around where I grew up.
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There's like um yeah, I remember um seeing some early van Gogh uh portraits and the potato eaters, like his very, very early, like super dark moody work.
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Um drawings.
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Uh it's a it is a painting of the sketches from it as well, but it's like a family of a peasant family in uh Zutven in the south of the Netherlands, eating peeling potatoes and eating potatoes, and over like a one central light in the middle, it's like very, very dark and moody, and they have very like angular faces.
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:47.279
Um reminded me a little bit of Quinton Blake's um sort of style of drawing, and that really captivated me.
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I remember that that's really stuck with me from a relatively young age.
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:51.920
Wow.
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Where did you grow up?
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Um in the Netherlands, not too far from Amsterdam.
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Okay, yeah.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.720
And was that in uh museums in Amsterdam that we've attracted to?
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:08.160
Yeah, yeah, um, but all around Utrecht, Rotterdam, whenever we were on holiday.
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:21.039
Um yeah, yeah, they're not like I said, no one no one kind of works within the arts, it wasn't like an obvious career pathway necessarily, but there is a big interest in it.
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:28.880
It's often the way, isn't it, that art gets handed down from parents and such.
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I used to get dragged to the um transport museum.
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Did you like it?
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:40.960
Hated it.
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There was a lot of art around the house, but um the we never got to galleries.
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There was a lot of prints.
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Van Gogh actually and um Turner.
00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:00.160
But we never got yeah, it was always the transport museum or the textile museum, the industrial revolution.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.599
In Manchester, you know, the industrial revolution and that sort of stuff.
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I hated.
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It's always an assumption that young uh young boys like trains.
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It's not a given.
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Yeah, I was kinda I was big into all of that, like uh museums where you could like operate a digger, blow bubbles, like any anything that you could just like run wild with.
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That was that was my scene at that age.
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:38.960
And how old were you, do you think, when you sort of had your aha moment, if you can call it that?
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In terms of actually like moving into contemporary art, I was well into my twenties at that point.
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Like I had already during school, I did art all the way up until my final exams, and it was always the thing that I enjoyed.
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But I was like, is this what I want to go study?
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It was always clear to me that I wouldn't go to art school and be an artist.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.519
Um you would.
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Wouldn't like it's okay, so I'd never considered doing that.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:14.079
I think I always thought it would be too vulnerable, or I just it didn't, I never thought I had it in me basically.
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Um then I was like, okay, so then what is the right move?
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I thought about I considered going to study art history, but I was like, no, I'm not actually that into the hit like it being so grounded in looking backwards.
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Um and yeah, kind of realizing the world around contemporary art and art galleries showing like artists who are just starting out that only came about, I guess, yeah, when I was about 22 maybe.
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I remember learning that a curator was a job.
00:20:51.839 --> 00:21:08.160
I guess I I always knew that people worked in museums on these exhibitions, but I never really understood how like expansive the role could be or what it was called or that there's courses that help you get into this sort of thing until um yeah, until well into my twenties.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:35.440
So that was a real that was a big aha moment because I think at that point I was just figuring out that I yeah, was interested in art but wanted to be at the genesis of the of the idea or of like bringing it to a public of like framing it um rather than the kind of framing and recontextualizing and who said what about it and what is the provenance of this um precious object.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:56.079
Like I r I was starting to learn that the excitement for me was being at the point of it being made and bringing things out of the studio for the first time and like um yeah, sort of really figuring out for the first time like how to how to frame it and how to bring people like viewers and visitors into that experience.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:57.200
Interesting.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:02.000
So I'm sorry, I was I was listening, but I was That was very hard to put that section in.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:14.640
So you were you'd always been around art, but you always felt that you couldn't be an artist or you didn't want you you were scared of being vulnerable?
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:32.240
Yeah, I think you regardless of what kind of work you make, you know if it's about um your own identity or your own experience explicitly, or yeah, if it's not really about that, but you're still like putting something of yourself out into the world up for some form of public scrutiny.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:33.039
Yeah.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:49.359
Um and even even at school when I was doing art, it was 50% theory and 50% making, and I always enjoyed the theory, the kind of thinking about how to speak about it or like the way that objects and ideas travel, that always interested me more than the making.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.640
I never felt that confident in in what I was making.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:53.039
Yeah.
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:59.359
So I did wonder for a while, like I went and viewed loads of um like graphic design schools.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.720
I thought maybe like that kind of design was the right direction.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.200
Um, but I never applied.
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.039
The same with fashion school.
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:15.279
I actually did apply to fashion school and I got in, but through the process of doing the interviews and everything, I realized that that wasn't the right choice either.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.119
And then I actually ended up doing something like highly academic.
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.599
Um is this for your are you talking about your BA?
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:22.319
Yeah, BA.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:24.480
So this is like 19-ish, yeah.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.279
Yeah.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.599
Which was great actually, in hindsight, it was great, but going through it, I was a bit like, what am I doing?
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:31.599
But with So what was the BA?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:40.000
It was liberal arts and sciences, so it's like the American college model where you go in and you kind of piece your course together yourself.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:40.720
Oh nice.
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.759
And that very much came about because it it was exactly that.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:47.759
I was like, Can I see myself doing three years of subject X or subject Y?
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.799
Like we'd want like I said, I considered art history.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:55.519
I was like, it's too much, I don't want to do that for that amount of time and be like so rooted in that.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:24:01.279
So this was a way of yeah, sticking with that kind of expanded horizon.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:13.599
Like I did a bit of languages, a bit of politics, bit of philosophy, a bit of art history, but really it wasn't necessarily about that, it wasn't so much about what you were learning, it was about being in an interdisciplinary environment.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:17.119
So you were with people who were studying science or social science.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:34.799
Um, you were more learning like how to write, how to formulate your ideas, how to public speak, how to approach a problem from lots of different directions and have like different types of brains in the room that could, you know, tackle the same thing from different angles.
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:49.039
So that yeah, like I said, it was more with the power of hindsight that I realised how valuable that was, but it did mean that I felt like I had to do something much more applied afterwards because it was so so broad and all over the place.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:25:01.440
I think it's like it was an amazing grounding of um, yeah, as a starting point of developing a critical and curious mind at that age in time.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:11.680
I think it was definitely the right choice, but um yeah, I think it was in my third year that someone said they were gonna do go to a curating course, and I was like, oh my god, amazing.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:13.920
Uh that was a real like green light moment.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.319
I didn't realise that that was a thing you could do.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.000
And then I just want to ask one thing about the VA as well.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.599
When you started it, did you have a plan in mind then?
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:28.799
Or was that more like I know I want to do something creative, but I'm feeling a bit like what were you?
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:34.400
Yeah, it was really like text or just just fumbling it together as I was as I was going along.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.400
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.839
And like, you know, trying to take as much out of the environment as I could.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:44.640
I did go like head dive d dived in headfirst, dove in head first.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:45.440
Yeah.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:26:07.839
Um but yeah, it wasn't like a I would I didn't feel like I was on any kind of like career path or trajectory, it wasn't like strategic, it was just like a sponge, just like taking everything that I I could going in every which direction, and then you know towards the end of it it started to it started to become more clear.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.680
Sounds amazing, and Steve Jobs tells that story, doesn't he?
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:28.000
About studying, um taking a class in um fonts, uh letter press or whatever you call it, and that's you know, just for pure for he was sort of flunking out of college and he he ended up doing this like random class about like typography.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:41.279
And that's why the Mac became so like his he developed a love for typography, and that's why the Mac sort of was so different to the PC and had all the different forms to use and sort of became much more user-friendly sort of interface.
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.359
Yeah, that's become it, yeah.
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:54.799
He and that for that that freedom to just let your mind sort of flow around like that must have been an incredible um prep for what you did next, in a way.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.680
It's kind of like a foundation, but with like academic thinking, right?
00:26:57.759 --> 00:26:59.680
You know, exactly, exactly.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.680
And that's what it sounds like to me.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:02.240
Yeah.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:08.400
Um so then yeah, you was on your BA and then you found out that there was a cure you could actually study curating.
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:15.440
Yeah, or so I found out about the course, and then I never thought you would learn to be a curator in a in a university.
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:27.759
Like I did always understand that it's uh a practical thing that you need to go out and do in the real world rather than learn in a book or learn in a discussion group, you know.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:40.079
But um it took another two years before I decided to go and do it, and I decided to go and do it more as a again, as a like an investment in self, but also as a way of getting a foot in the door of the industry.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:52.799
So I chose a course that was quite um purposefully minded at like getting you out into the world and being quite practice-based rather than um uh theoretical.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:57.279
Um, and that's actually what yeah, that's what brought me to London initially.
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:01.039
It was supposed to just be for two years, and now this is my tenth year of living here.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:01.920
Oh wow.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:09.440
So, yeah, that really was like a big catalyst of uh of change.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:17.920
Like the I had an amazing peer group, there was loads of opportunity to like tap into funding from the university and which university was it?
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:20.720
It was at Goldsmiths, so up the up the road from here.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.039
I've been uh I've been a local ever since.
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.880
Um always always kind of around Peckham.
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.720
Um and how long ago were you studying at Goldsmiths?
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.240
Uh I arrived in 2016.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:33.440
2016, yeah.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.799
So yeah, and a very renowned curating course, right?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:39.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.039
One of one of the big ones, I think.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:53.839
Um but again, yeah, it was it it's really good because you got all you got access to all the same things the art students had access to, to so all the kind of workshops.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:32.559
Um I audited different classes, so I I think coming from such a a kind of critically rigorous background, I missed that a little bit in a in the very applied course, but then I could go and take some classes within critical art theory and get that grounding in, and then you could go and uh use the ceramic studio just for fun, just to like be doing something with my hands and learn some basic woodworking and 3D printing for stuff I needed for exhibitions, so just like having that whole environment was incredible, and it was mainly yeah, it wasn't so much necessarily what you learned, but it was like who you were learning through and with.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:38.720
Um, so yeah, really just like a great peer group, many of whom are still like my closest friends now.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:47.920
Yeah, so it was a really, really valuable time um to kind of get going.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.880
And then off the back of that, I got um a fellowship at Goldsmith CCA.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.400
So this is again the gallery just up the road here in Newcross Gate.
00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.599
Um, that was just opening its doors on the campus.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.119
I started before it before it opened.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:03.599
Wow.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.400
Um, stayed with them for a year and a half.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.640
And that's that was the thing that stayed that kept me in London.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:17.599
It was definitely also the thing that kind of catapulted um my curatorial career in insofar as I have one.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:20.160
I guess by now I can really say that I do have one.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:26.400
Um and it was incredible because it was the institution kind of just like inventing itself.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:34.480
It was, you know, it the all the stuff that was in place was you know a couple of months in, they hadn't yet opened their first exhibition.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:53.839
So it was like such an amazing learning experience of like what an institution does, how it's like inventing itself, the conversations that are being had about even just like who's responsible for what within their job roles, you know, a lot of that was partly still being figured out.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:31:02.079
For people that don't know, CTA is an incredibly it's quite a different model for a university gallery, as far as I am aware, isn't it?
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:07.519
It's a very ambitious sort of institution within a university.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:08.000
Yeah.
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:08.400
Yeah.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:20.880
Showing sort of internationally renowned artists on a very high-level production and budgets and sort of not just a sort of gallery for students to show their work in.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:25.519
Yeah, huge, beautiful spaces, like a converted Victorian bathhouse.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:28.480
Designed by or built by.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.480
Ooh, I can't remember.
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:32.799
Some artist architects.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:33.599
Assemble.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:34.319
Assemble, yeah.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:34.720
There you go.
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.000
Turner prize winners?
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:36.240
Yeah.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:37.440
Turner prize winner.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:37.759
Yeah.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:42.319
They just won the turner prize, I think, when they got the architectural commission.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:43.759
Yeah, they really did everything.
00:31:43.920 --> 00:32:06.960
They like made their own die for the tiles, they bit bent the metal for the seats, you know, it was like interior, exterior, um, all the little details, the like different material choices, they worked with the designers on the um on the like the visual identity of it as well, so that was all consistent and coherent.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:15.920
Yeah, and that was all, you know, it was uh when I first went there, it was still just coming off the back of being a building site, so it was like a really, really exciting time.
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.359
And were you studying and working at the same time?
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:22.559
Uh I was, but not when I was there.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:30.000
Like that was um that fellowship was a graduate like an opportunity for two graduates coming off the course specifically.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:35.680
Um but yeah, whilst I was studying, again, I was kind of doing like as much as I possibly could.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:43.839
So I was like, my very first job within arts was invigilating, so just like being sat in the exhibition looking after the exhibition.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.039
At CCA.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:55.039
No, uh uh this was at Pace, a gallery, like a blue chip, like a big serious um old gallery in Mayfair.
00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:04.880
Kind of a terrible job, but you ultimately did get paid to read a book, which is quite quite useful when she's studying.
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:07.759
Yeah, I need one.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:16.960
And then for a little while at university, I was like, my whole life is art at the moment, art art, and I was like, I actually want to make some money like outside of that.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:32.160
So I went for a little while, went back to working in cafes, worked for a cheesemonga, did like loads of random jobs, and then was like, okay, going into my second year, I was like, I need to be kind be serious about finding jobs afterwards.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:35.200
So I started working for Deptford X.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:49.680
Before we go into the world of work, yeah, how was the experience in the Goldsmith MA and would you like recommend it as a path in for putting curators?
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:53.519
Honestly, it's it's mixed.
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:59.519
I think it's very much for me, it was a um what you put into it, you got out of it.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:03.759
It's not a it's not a given that people will enjoy it, basically.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:16.639
Um I think yeah, as I said, I got very lucky with having an amazing group of people that I was going through this experience with that really like uh led to a lot.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:23.760
There's a lot of energy to kind of do things together and a lot of like very collegiate and and good atmosphere.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:39.280
Um but like yeah, I don't know, given like how expensive it now is and how much university models have changed, um, and like how big these courses have become and all of that sort of thing that's only gotten more and more since I've left.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.840
I don't know if I'd never necessarily recommend someone at the moment.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
Like, yeah, I had an amazing time, it set me up really well.
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.239
Yeah, um, I learned a lot.
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:55.360
I'm super happy I did it, but I think you need to know what you're wanting to get out of it.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:58.159
Um how old were you when you did the call?
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:06.400
I was I guess I think I was 22 when I started.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:08.480
So a little bit older.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:08.719
Yeah.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.960
Yeah, you'd sort of been around a little bit.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:20.079
Yeah, taking a bit of a break to figure out like whether that was definitely the right move, and then I knew I was ready to go back into education, also.
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:31.280
I was like So if I'm hearing you right, there can be amazing uh uh experiences on these courses, but don't expect people to hold your hand for you, you know, take take time.
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:43.039
There are other ways in to this world, and you know, you have to go with a bit of an agenda in a way, and some some uh get up and go about yourself to make the most of it.
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:47.519
Yeah, like like I said, ultimately, like you don't learn to be a curator in a university.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.079
No.
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:55.920
Um so you do it it is about like the doing, you learn through the doing.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:04.960
Um, and at the time it really set us up really well to like try things out, like the university was paying rent on a small gallery space that you could apply for.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:17.840
I don't think they do that anymore, but that was like incredible, that was kind of the most valuable thing, and that was all like essentially extracurricular, but it was part of the it it was just an additional offer to the course.
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:31.039
And these kind of collaborations with spaces you could apply for, like people that uh taking people on internships or like giving their space out for a while, like that was all the most um valuable aspects of that course to me.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:31.920
Yeah.
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:33.760
Cool, thank you.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:44.159
So then moving on to the world of work, um, sounds like you'd done very well to get the position at the CCA uh through uh your hard work and talent.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.199
And very fortuitous that it was all happening at that time, right?
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:50.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:50.400 --> 00:37:13.280
I think it it probably I became quite a good candidate for them because I'd just come off doing all of this work for Deptford X as a as a student, which is a fringe festival, so like an open application festival every two years in in um in Deptford, where the where the course was being taught at the time also, and it was all about connecting artists with local spaces.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:24.800
So I just built up this like amazing knowledge of different groups and different people working in the area and and just general general context to the locality of the of the gallery.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:30.719
So I think that was probably the thing that made me the that got me that got me that next job.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:35.679
Um interested, so taking initiative again, yeah, getting yourself out there.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.440
And was that a job you were doing while you were studying?
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:37.760
Yeah.
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:38.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.360
So that was presumably part-time.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:44.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.000
Yeah, it was.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:38:07.679
Yeah, I was doing at some point I was doing a big mix of uh part-time jobs, and they were some sometimes that was completely unworkable in terms of like I'd generally had fixed days, but things would move around, you know, there's like openings or events or like extra times you need to be in places or things run over or anything like that.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:15.920
It would just I'd often be going from like one job to to another within the same day um to make the week work.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.719
And yeah, that was definitely too much.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:25.599
So when the fellowship ended, I knew that my next move had to be to just get one full-time job.
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:30.719
Um which luckily worked out pretty quickly as well.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.199
So that's when we move into CCA?
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:41.440
That's when no, so this is um I was at the CCA for about a year and a half, but but that was a that was fellowship was part-time.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:42.559
So I was two days a week.
00:38:44.800 --> 00:39:05.519
Two days a week in the office, um, a day a week um as duty manager, like running the gallery as a as a weekend job on the side, um still helping out with the festival for DeptFedex, um running the exhibition programme here at the time as well, was like a week and a day and a half.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Yeah, that was all at the same time.
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:18.960
Um but yeah, my time here got clutch slightly short because it was the one thing that was still running on as I then moved into a full-time, a full-time office job.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:29.119
So just to clarify that, Lucy was working at uh lots of galleries, but one of them would be in DKUK, did a fantastic job here with our exhibition programme.
00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:32.639
But we just moved into the space here at Queen's Road.
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:37.360
So you sort of uh quite a specialist in newly opened spaces by this point.
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:38.719
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:41.039
This was 2021.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:42.960
Yes, right, yeah.
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.199
Um so that was like a one-year position.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:54.320
Um yeah, Lucy and I done very well, Lucy really helped develop some amazing shows in the in a brand new space, right?
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:55.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:04.000
How we work with the artists and has been involved in our in DK UK in one way or another ever since, really.
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.199
So we worked with us on the um advisory board.
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:07.840
Yeah.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:33.519
Um yeah, and working in a space like this kind of really solidified the thing that I'm most interested in, which is like bridging that gap between the viewer and and the public, but I find it the most interesting to do within a space that isn't the kind of classic, brightly lit, white walled, um, classic, typical gallery.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.639
I don't think I would ever go and work for a really big institution.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:41:02.559
Um, and I like that, yeah, kind of working with the parameters of um of the space and kind of bringing the best out of that and being that kind of translation point between an artist who maybe isn't used to working in that environment and kind of helping shape like how to make that um how to make their idea work within the within the context I think is always the most interesting.
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:20.559
Yeah, can you say a bit more about expanding um the phrase you use, but talking about bridging the gap, so not working in white space white cubespaces, but yeah, what was it that was attractive about um not working in the white cube spaces?
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:22.159
Say a bit more about that.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:26.880
Well, I think on a really basic level it's just a bit more real and also a bit more fun.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:40.960
Like the the thing that's great about running a program in a space is that you get to know it inside out and you get to understand how people use it and and what works where and all of that sort of thing.
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:44.639
You're that you're the kind of the expertise within that.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:48.559
Um so then it becomes like a two-way translation.
00:41:48.639 --> 00:42:25.760
So you're both kind of doing that job towards the artist to get the best out of their artwork, and you're also doing that job towards the people that come into the space to experience the work at the other end, and I think spaces that are really good at getting a really wide range of public, um that's that's then the most interesting because you can really think about okay, how am I speaking to people, how is the work speaking to people, like what can I contribute to that to make the overall experience like on all sides better.
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:39.199
I do see the job of someone who's curating an exhibition as being yeah, being the you're the bridge between the artist, the artwork, and the people who are coming in to see it or to spend time with it, um, as you do here.
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:41.519
Yeah.
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.599
So where did you move on to after DKUK?
00:42:50.559 --> 00:43:12.000
Um I went into a role at the Roberts Institute of Art, which was a it's a foundation that for many many years already had been known for commissioning performance, and I came on essentially as a producer on the performance program, um, which was great because it's something that I'm really interested in.
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:36.239
Again, you've got that like um performance can move into lots of different spaces often, and it's about like bringing people together in that live moment, so that is everything kind of comes together in that um in one room in in a night, or yeah, there's the that kind of like time-basedness I've always found really appealing and interesting.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:47.280
But it was my first job like really producing something, so really um working over a long period of time with a group of artists, like really getting to know them.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:59.760
It was also because um at this point it was COVID, like six weeks into the job, so like super new, just getting to grips with everything that we were going to be doing and that I was gonna be doing.
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:12.400
Um lockdown started and the office closed and the whole job moved from home and there was obviously no performance happening for ages, so it completely changed um changed the dynamic.
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:15.599
It had some really great sides to it.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:35.920
The organization decided to set up this commissioning arm to make sure that people who'd just lost loads of work, artists making performance, um, had a steady stream of income to kind of see them through and be developing a new work with the promise that whenever people could gather again, that's when it would be put on.
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.559
So kind of like however long it would take.
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:44.000
Um, I think probably they didn't realise at the point of setting this program up just how long it would take.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.960
It was like another two and a half years.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:45:04.480
Um, but it meant over that time I it was basically my job to develop these five commissions from like the very first um conversation to finding the venue, getting on, getting it made, getting people there um from start to finish.
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.840
And that there was like a and how long did you say the timeline was for that?
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.199
It was about two and a half years.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:10.639
Wow, for each project.
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:13.760
Yeah, well so they were running concurrently, yeah.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:27.039
Um yeah, and there was also performance programs supposed to happen at Glasgow International, so they're working a lot with partnerships, and that did happen, but that all got recorded and put out in different ways.
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:57.840
So we at some point were able to go up to Glasgow, did this like really mad video shoot where the artist's idea was to um have a toy Range Rover, so this tiny car um be chased by these big mastiff dogs, so the dog would look kind of like a Godzilla um like monster in comparison with the car, and like on paper, sure, but in practice it was an absolute nightmare.
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.000
Like the dogs were not interested in the car whatsoever.
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:10.159
Um we had a drone operator like flying the flying a camera, he was supposed to be like filming it from above.
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:14.239
The dog was supposed to run after the car and then like drool over it.
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:31.519
The dog wouldn't run, and then on the first run-through, the like the drone operator, like I don't know, I can't remember what happened, but anyway, we were on the bank of the Clyde, on the bank of the river, and like during after the first or second take, he flew his camera into the river and it was gone.
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:36.559
Um, so yeah, the whole thing fell to pieces pretty hard.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:41.760
But we put something out in the end, we had to like move it to indoors and like static shots.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:58.719
Um yeah, from that idea originally being a live performance that was supposed to happen in a room with this car zooming through a room of people and then these random dogs running out after it to what it ended up being that was quite uh quite an arc.
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:11.280
But yeah, that was um there were definitely some really fun times in that, but like managing that upset, like me never having done that before and all of these things going wrong at the same time was pretty intense.
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:13.519
It's a real balance, isn't it?
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:27.280
Because you need an artist's approach to things, yeah, but also you need the like organizational skills like to balance that like organization and openness is quite a skill, I think.
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:34.480
Yeah, being a to be that organized and fixed, but also like putting the eye letting the ideas go where they they want to, yeah.
00:47:34.639 --> 00:48:00.960
It's very impressive, and also you know, it's it's about getting the best out of people at the end of the day, so there's a lot of um yeah, I don't know, emotional labor, maybe for a better word, but sort of soft people skills that also takes like a lot of time and energy, so it's like all the different hats that you wear, like within film, TV, or theatre, I'm sure this would be like many different people's jobs, you know.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:18.559
You'd have like uh the production manager and you'd have the like assistant camera, and you'd have the person with the clipboard, and you'd yeah, it was with us, it was just like the camera, the dog trainer, and me doing all the other jobs.
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:28.159
Because even the artist wasn't able to travel to Scotland for because this was in COVID.
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:36.239
This was in COVID, they were in Denmark, like directing from afar essentially, just coming in on video call, being like, it's looking great.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:41.360
Not being able to review any footage because the camera had gone into the water.
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:47.840
But yeah, that was a really fun time.
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:53.840
I stayed there for about yeah, uh for that length of time, two and a half years, finished that big commission project.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:54.480
Yeah.
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:58.320
Um that must have been such a relief to just be in one place for a while.
00:48:58.559 --> 00:48:59.679
Yeah, that was that was amazing.
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:01.280
Yeah.
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:09.760
Um, and then again, you know, as these things go, that that kind of set me up for the next thing again.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.719
So it's been this it was like a slow development, right?
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:14.960
For in terms of your career path.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:33.599
You know, you've you've Dev FedEx, you just sort of put yourself out there while being a student and get to know the community there working hard, and then that led on to goldsmiths, and ultimately here, you know, like just honing your skills and building them up slowly to be more of a producer role.
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.719
Um, so then yeah, what was the next step after that?
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.280
Yeah, so I I it was quite conscious.
00:49:39.360 --> 00:50:14.559
I mean, to an extent, it was just like saying yes to whatever I could I could, you know, whatever was um whatever was on offer, but I was also thinking about that I wanted to work within lots of different contexts, um smaller organizations, so a charity, a gallery, like a big institution, this foundation that was doing something very different, like they were also managing a big collection, um partnering with museums, like all of that was thinking about how to get experience in lots of different contexts.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:20.239
Um, that's a conscious decision of yours to like build in the um different areas.
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:27.039
Yeah, yes and no, like it was definitely something I wanted, and it also meant I was applying to these different contexts.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:41.280
Um, and I wasn't like Scattergun applying, I was like thinking quite carefully about what I wanted to do and why, and if I thought I'd actually um like be the right candidate for the role.
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:48.480
Um, so it wasn't just like oh just try everything and see what sticks, but also to an extent it is because it is hard to find a job.
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:51.280
Um they're incredibly competitive, aren't they?
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:52.639
These jobs, yeah.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:58.000
Um so to put it in context, I think for the role that you applied for here.
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.840
I think there's about 30 applicants, something like that.
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:02.639
Yeah.
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:09.760
And I imagine in more better known institutions it can be, you know, hundreds of yeah.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:10.719
Yeah, I'm sure.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.599
I mean, this was the great thing about this fellowship, right?
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.559
That was really like a big turning point or starting point.
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:24.079
Because I think you'd probably never be up against so few candidates for a job role because we were a graduating class of 18.
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:26.320
Yeah.
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:27.599
From the curating course.
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.280
Um there are two spots available.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:31.519
You're still friends with some people.
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:32.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:46.239
But a lot of people didn't apply for it because they knew that they were moving on, moving away, their visa was expiring, you know, sometimes very practical reasons, sometimes they already had something else lined up, some people didn't want to stay in London.
00:51:46.559 --> 00:52:00.960
Um I don't know how many people actually ended up applying, but I was like I was like, I'm never gonna have um be up against as uh as small a pool of people for a a role within an institution as as that opportunity is.
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:09.599
But also at the same time I was doing a lot of my own stuff or as much of my own stuff on the side as I could.
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:17.679
Um the only way that was manageable, is manageable and is fun is to do it with others.
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:21.599
Like that working collaboratively became super, super important to me.
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:29.119
There was one really big project that I ran with two friends in starting in about 2018.
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:33.440
Yes, started in 2018, kind of went public in 2019.
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:41.519
Um, and that was it's called Against the Run of Play, and it was um about women's football.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:50.880
It was about kind of taking the ideas of spectatorship from sport and participation from sport and kind of applying them to an arts context, and vice versa.
00:52:51.039 --> 00:53:21.840
So to kind of apply modes of being that we have within art, like different formats of events, screening programs, performances, roundtable discussions, exhibitions, um, and combining that with screening um women's football games, so kind of working out strategies to kind of bring these crossover audiences into the space and have a dialogue between these two um these two industries, I guess, but at a crossing point.
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:32.159
So all of the all of the work was people making work about yeah, how to move like a team or directly about women's sports or women's football.
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:38.719
Um and yeah, that was just an incredible project, and it was again just really fun.
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:40.320
I think that is a guiding principle.
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:42.480
Like, are you actually enjoying what you're doing?
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:51.119
Um, and that got me back into playing football, which I hadn't done since school, and now that's such a big part of my life.
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:57.039
Um, like a genuine hobby that I spent a lot of time on.
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:01.519
Also, like following sports teams, going to live games, playing.
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:18.320
So, again, yeah, coming through that through that arts context, but it's actually like permeated into like lots of different aspects of my life and and that approach of working with others and working in a really publicly minded and community-minded uh way.
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:24.960
So, like one thing we did there was commission artists to work with local girls' teams for them to make an artwork together.
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:41.519
So, we did this with three different girls' teams in um Peckham, Honor Oak Park um area, and they went to the trainings for like a sustained period of time to kind of get to know each other and then like made a work together.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:55:05.519
So, one made a film together, one made uh co-authored banner that got hung up in their in their training um the the cage pitch that they play on, so it was kind of like making them a team identity, and with one we made them a new um kit, so they co-designed their own shorts and um shirts and logo.
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:10.159
And I think I've seen them it's a team that's still really really active.
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:15.440
I'm pretty sure they're still using the kit because I've seen them play around Peckham not too long ago.
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:21.119
So that's some really proud, proud moments that those things like really really had legs.
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:29.679
Also, for a lot of people that are involved in the project, it was like a really important um thing that sometimes people could still come up to speak to me about.
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:36.000
At some point in a fruit and veg shop, I got recognized by a woman who said, Like, are you the football lady?
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:46.159
And it was because her daughter had come to like one of our workshops, and I was like, that was like a real like, oh I've made I've made it moment.
00:55:46.559 --> 00:56:02.079
Um because I was like, Oh wow, this has actually had a proper like impact on someone, um, you know, like a small thing, but it's like really it's meant a lot, and that that was really special to like because this was maybe like a year or two years later.
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:12.159
I have no idea how she recognised who I was, and this person had come to the thing because they would put a little bulletin in like the Lewisham Council newsletter.
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:21.039
So, again, thinking very much actively thinking, like, how do we get how do we communicate beyond the typical art systems and reach other people?
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:23.760
And I'm interested to talk a bit more about that.
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:28.000
So, were you conscious?
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:39.760
Oh, I want to be like a high flying curator, uh David Zwermer, and uh or were you thinking at this point, well, I know I still want to be doing these really fun, more public projects?
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:46.000
Um how are you balancing like your career and your like fun, interesting projects?
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:47.280
Did you have a plan?
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:52.079
Was that just sort of just doing anything that comes in front of you?
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:59.119
I I never had a plan, but the plan was always to not be the high-flying curator, like from working within these institutions.
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:29.519
Also, I was like, I don't see myself do the trajectory of like working within the cogs of a bigger organization where you go from like assistant curator, curator, senior curator, director, and it becomes in a way increasingly removed from um yeah, it becomes much more about like being responsible for bringing the money in or being a good manager of your staff or like running a building or um these sorts of things.
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:32.960
I guess I mean to an extent I am doing that now.
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:38.639
Like my job right now that I've started just in the beginning of the year is a director of an institution.
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:44.400
Um look at all these directors and think I don't want to do that.
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:46.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:48.960
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna dip my toe in.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:57.840
Because I'm doing I'm doing it as a maternity cover, um, and then at the end of that maternity cover, I'll go within that organization, I'll go into a programming role.
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:06.559
So it's London Performance Studios, again, staying very local, about 10 minutes away from here, and again back into the world of performance.
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:21.840
It's an organization that commissions, develops um performance and bridges the gap between like art and theatre, so it's very intentionally situating itself in between the two.
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:48.559
Um so it's often about working with people who are theatre makers or opera makers that want to do something that's more art-coded, a bit more experimental, or with artists who have a performance practice but don't know how to scale that to working with a bigger creative team, are interested in maybe bringing in actors or a dramaturg or um a lighting designer or whatever it might be.
00:58:48.719 --> 00:58:56.880
So we the organization helps them to be able to make that make those steps and move between those two worlds a bit more freely.
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.320
Um but yeah, it's it's very much that.
00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:09.760
Um for nine months I'm the director and I'm doing exactly those things of like looking after a team of people, running a building, looking after the finances.
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:13.039
Um and I'm very much seeing it as a world.
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:14.400
Yeah, okay, yeah.
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:18.000
Seeing it as a like a learning curve.
00:59:18.159 --> 00:59:19.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:21.599
And you never know where it's gonna lead.
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:22.000
Exactly.
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:26.239
Yeah, exactly that.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:31.119
And also still thinking about sorry to interrupt, but fantastic to be learning on someone else's time.
00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:31.679
Exactly.
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:33.360
Yeah, yeah, good for you.
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:40.000
Yeah, and knowing that I can I I will hand it back and go back into something that I'm deaf I know I'm definitely interested in.
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:48.800
Um all of this also with a slight viewpoint of like, would I ever run my own space and I need to then have all of these skills.
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:54.079
Um but yeah, and so far I'm really enjoying it.
00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:56.400
So you also you never know until you do, right?
00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:01.199
I might end up exactly in the thing I thought I would never end up doing, which is often the way.
01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:12.559
No, I mean I usually do a path in the middle rather than very forward.
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:12.960
Okay.
01:01:13.360 --> 01:05:19.119
Um, all good.
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:21.920
Thank you.
01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:02.639
I'm sure we do want to go at the back.
01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:10.719
If you've got a hairline like mine, it just kind of grows up at the back there.
01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:14.639
I'd probably suggest just like barbering it off, quite sure.
01:06:15.199 --> 01:06:16.800
Yeah, I'm happy to follow your lead.
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:21.280
Because otherwise it sort of just that there.
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:23.039
So I don't think as long as it covers.
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:26.719
I think I'm sure it will.
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:38.639
Yeah, we've been talking a lot about um career interests and passion projects and doing projects more for fun.
01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:44.800
And um what I'd like to ask you now is that how would you balance your time and energy?
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:52.159
Because obviously you're you know working full-time and producing creative projects is a lot.
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:52.639
Yeah.
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:59.519
You know, and you've been doing it now from what if I understand correctly, 2018 was the first one.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:00.079
Yeah.
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:06.639
Now to 2025, seven years is a long time to be working two jobs essentially.
01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:12.559
So, how do you find that and how do you protect your uh your sanity and your energy?
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:28.000
I think there's a couple of important guides for me, therefore, like all the stuff I do on the side, I do with other people because of um again, if you're doing it in your own free time, at the very least, it needs to be fun.
01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:36.559
So, like working with friends as a way also of consistently seeing people and challenging people, but also sharing the workload becomes quite important.
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:47.599
Um and I think I you learn so much from other people, like letting each other kind of run with an idea, and and I think that often makes things better.
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:53.679
Um, but yeah, the other really important thing is just like going at your own pace with it.
01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:59.679
Like the gallery project I run with my partner Mark in our in our flat.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:06.639
Um we do two, maybe three a year, and it's just at whatever pace we feel we can manage.
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:12.320
There's no like rhythm to the program if we want to take a break from it, then we take a break from it.
01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:20.079
Um, and it's the same with most of the kind of side projects that I run, that they they very much go at go at their own pace.
01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:33.279
Um the other big thing is that I did decide I was doing too much, and I have kind of not cut I've cut back quite a bit of the of the other things I'm doing.
01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:46.000
So I'm focused just on Gur, so that's the collective that is also now doing the exhibition programme at DK UK, and KIP, which is the house gallery, and essentially nothing else, so no other only two.
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:47.199
Only two side projects.
01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:51.279
Only two major projects, but no, I was also doing like job as a director.
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:53.520
Yeah, so this is the other big thing.
01:08:53.680 --> 01:09:11.680
This job is a four-day a week, so I've moved part of the reason I I well, kind of the biggest reason that I changed jobs was because the work the role I was in before was full-time, and it was kind of full-time plus plus, like there was quite a lot of overtime, uh, quite a lot of evening work.
01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:21.199
Like your phone kind of never stopped buzzing even on the weekends, and that's the thing that I um like consciously wanted to get away from.
01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:23.600
So, this is a four-day a week role.
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:29.279
It's my it's a lot more boundaried in many ways, and that's kind of exactly what I was looking for.
01:09:29.439 --> 01:10:10.159
So it's got the it's got the challenge, it's got the learning curve, it's got the environment that I really like, but the kind of biggest pull factor was um just like the better work-life balance, and life in my case might mean that I'm still doing uh lots of forms of unpaid work, um, but yeah, it's just readdressed that a bit better so that I actually have capacity to do these things, and uh yeah, because it as you said, I was starting to realize that I'd had taken on too much and uh I didn't want to run out of steam to do the things that I actually wanted to do, so I needed to restructure um restructure my my week and my life quite quite severely.
01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:15.279
So this was a was a big step in that well done.
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:17.520
I have enormous respect for what you're doing.
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:29.680
I was talking to somebody to the artists and curators and the subsidizers of art, right?
01:10:30.319 --> 01:10:44.479
Unfortunately, so pay so thank you from DK UK because you do do a lot for DK UK now, and you've been curating the shows here last year as part of KIP.
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:45.119
Yeah.
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:48.079
And this year as part of Girls.
01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:48.800
Yeah.
01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:51.600
Would you like to talk about KIP a little bit?
01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:56.079
The remit for that and some of the um artists that you've shown.
01:10:56.479 --> 01:11:13.119
Yeah, so Kip, um I mean, really was spurred on by Mark um seeing that I was talking about how I would do things if I was in charge, essentially, and he was like, you should just do it, or we should do it.
01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:16.640
And he he had a studio space at the time.
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:19.439
He was renting a studio that he wasn't really using.
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:24.079
Um he was working from home a lot more just because it was a more comfortable space.
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:28.880
It was like an incredibly cold, like quite a hostile environment.
01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:33.680
Um so we decided to we decided to turn it into a gallery.
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:48.399
So we spent um we spent about a year talking about it because I saw loads of reasons not to do it, not least capacity, finance, but also bringing people into relationship, you know, healthy relationship, yeah.
01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:54.880
Yeah, also that I'd never worked with a friend a lot, with friends a lot, never worked with a partner and exactly.
01:11:54.960 --> 01:12:00.960
I was like, is that mixing uh is that you know coming a bit too close close to home?
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:05.920
All of that, yeah, that was definitely all part of it.
01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:15.920
Um but my main my my biggest concern, which turned out to be totally unfounded, was that I thought the other artists in the building would hate it.
01:12:16.319 --> 01:12:36.640
Um because it's quite a it was one of those like you've got a door and you've got walls, but they don't go all the way up to the ceiling, so there's like noise bleed, um and it was really like in the middle of the building in an industrial estate, so like the barrier to entry is quite high because you need to find it.
01:12:37.119 --> 01:12:51.279
Yeah, it's it's not it wasn't an easy place to find basically and for visitors, and I was really trying to not do things that had high bar barriers to entry, you know, that that were making themselves out to be exclusive or hard to find.
01:12:51.439 --> 01:13:13.199
So we did a lot of work around like the signage and the communication and um like working with the other people within the within the building and kind of getting people on board before we did it, and also just a massive conversion because it was like a really messy, unfinished space, and we turned it into a really like finished, pristine space.
01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:20.239
So that was that a bit more of a like a sorry I never came, but uh was that more of a white cube space?
01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:25.279
Um it had plywood walls, um, so it was a wooden a wooden box, yeah.
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:37.039
Quite like a soft pinky-hued wood, and our invite to artists there was also that they were allowed to choose the floor colour, so we would repaint the floor in a bright colour.
01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:45.119
Um and the idea of the walls was that they they were on um they were hinged essentially.
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:58.399
So again, it wasn't supposed to run as a full-time gallery, it was also still supposed to be able to be a studio, so you could literally lift the wooden walls off the the messy painting walls at the back and then just like clip them back on again.
01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:07.199
Um but yeah, all uh Mark's brainchild and expertise and uh building skill.
01:14:07.439 --> 01:14:21.760
Um but still putting some limiting factors in there for yourself, you know, acknowledging the environment and um yes, the kind of opposite to the East End gallery scene when I first moved here.
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:29.439
That was the angle and the height of it, but it was still very much going in 2004, and all the galleries were really hard to find.
01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:34.239
You know, the East End was you know not what it is now, very difficult to navigate.
01:14:34.880 --> 01:14:44.399
No Google maps, just with your A to Z walking around as a scared, like trying to find these galleries with buzzers, you know.
01:14:44.640 --> 01:14:58.079
Exactly, even knowing that you are allowed to ring the doorbell, you know, or that the fact that you have to ring the doorbell is a is a is a self-filtering like exclusive system, right?
01:14:58.399 --> 01:15:01.760
But yeah, it's very much of another time now that, isn't it?
01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:02.479
Yeah.
01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:06.960
Yeah, luckily, luckily it is uh changing a bit.
01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:13.359
Um yeah, that's how that so that's how it started.
01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:20.079
But we did the first show and then with the whole building got kicked out, so nothing to do with us.
01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:26.880
Um like hundreds of artists, designers, makers with a ten-day notice period.
01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:28.159
Which building was it?
01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:37.359
It was just uh on the side of the of Burgess Park, um yeah, next to like it just really in the middle of an industrial state.
01:15:37.520 --> 01:15:44.000
Yeah um in an in an old building that now it looks like they haven't actually done anything else with.
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:45.359
Um ten days.
01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:47.600
Was it carnage then getting that?
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:48.800
It was horrible, yeah.
01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:52.800
The build they hadn't re-communicated their lease.
01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:58.319
Um the studio provider, and they hadn't told anyone that this hadn't happened.
01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:12.319
They were like feeling they thought they were still in the midst of communic like negotiating this new lease, but the building owner decided that whatever they were trying to negotiate just wasn't gonna happen, and he just got the building repossessed.
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:21.920
Um so like from one day to the next, there were lots it was like external security guards on the gate, like stopping people from getting in or getting their stuff out.
01:16:22.079 --> 01:16:52.720
That had to all be negotiated, and then you had like a very short period of time to um to empty it out, and that was again, it was quite an eye-opening thing of like, okay, I shouldn't have you know, rather than spending a year talking about what this thing could be, maybe we should just have done it, and because through the doing we realized how great it actually was and that we wanted to do more of it, um, and we just then spent all of this time time, effort, money, and like building it up and getting it set, and then it all had to come back down.
01:16:52.800 --> 01:17:08.960
So that was kind of it's um but then luckily we found a home for Kip here um for uh for the year, and then now we've so now we've moved it into our flat, and now it's become a lot more about like what it means to be hosted within a house.
01:17:09.119 --> 01:17:16.399
Like that's quite a guiding practice of the exhibitions we're making and the people we're inviting and the offer and the invite.
01:17:16.479 --> 01:18:02.239
So, like alongside us going to people's studios, people always also in the first phase before an exhibition is agreed, they um we cook them dinner so they can come and see the space, but also just like get to know us a little bit and um you know see what the working relationship is is like through a more kind of generous hosting perspective rather than a like yeah, we're just kind of thinking trying to work through like different ways that the that the offer is a little bit different again, not just for the for the artist, that's a big part of it, but also for the visitor, acknowledging the fact that you do need to like feel confident enough to like come into someone's home, ring the doorbell, we're on the top floor, so you're going all the way through a residential building.
01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:12.479
Um so in in many ways the same sort of kind of questions of like how do you how do you make that easy for people that we were dealing with in the studio space initially.
01:18:12.880 --> 01:18:19.760
It says a lot to you know where we are as a city and you know, in our you know, there's not a lot of space.
01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:20.560
Yeah.
01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:23.119
Yeah, it's working with the resources that you have available.
01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:28.880
There was a a scene in Russia, right?
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:39.439
You know, in Soviet Russia, uh the apt art scene, which was a whole series of shows and exhibitions that were like underground held in people's apartments as well.
01:18:39.840 --> 01:18:40.479
I didn't know that.
01:18:40.560 --> 01:18:41.520
I should check that out.
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:43.199
That sounds very relevant.
01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:44.079
Yeah.
01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:57.920
Yeah, and in terms of the artists, like that doesn't so much have a um a guide.
01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:11.920
Like we try and show people that haven't had a lot of big breaks yet, that have just been kind of making consistently making work in the studio, but maybe aren't that like public and visible with it yet.
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:32.880
So work a little bit harder to kind of find the right people, um, rather than just look at what other spaces are doing and kind of move through from there, which I think understandably is often what ends up happening, and also not just look at like who's in art school, but like yeah, find different different ways in.
01:19:33.279 --> 01:19:43.439
Um and then it's about kind of finding the things that resonate with both Mark and I just through through conversation.
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:49.279
And do you find it um what am I trying to say here?
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:54.880
How does it affect your relationship working together?
01:19:55.039 --> 01:19:59.520
Is that like putting a strain on it or is it more of a positive experience?
01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:02.960
It's been largely largely positive.
01:20:03.359 --> 01:20:06.000
I'd say yeah, uh overwhelmingly positive.
01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:08.399
I've I've really really enjoyed that aspect of it.
01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:28.640
I've really enjoyed also um because it's not just the relationship of like I do the curatorial side and Mark does the kind of technical side, which is where a lot of his skills and like professional uh work sits in that realm, but we really want to um both do both and sh and share that.
01:20:29.039 --> 01:20:34.079
Um I've seen you with a drill, DC, you're pretty handy.
01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:36.560
Yeah, I can do the basics, yeah.
01:20:36.880 --> 01:20:43.279
Um again, just like by trying and failing.
01:20:43.760 --> 01:21:02.720
I'm definitely not the fastest or most most proficient, but yeah, um the thing that I found really rewarding is like yeah, really building that up, really building it up together and kind of uh working out what works, what doesn't work, um, and having his input in that and the input in the artistic program and the artistic conversations.
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:13.840
And I think people that have the technical knowledge of how something can actually be done are probably the most important people in making the exhibition anyway.
01:21:14.479 --> 01:21:40.800
Um like that is also like a massive part of the curatorial side of things, like the like you can really tell if a show has been well installed, yeah, big time, um, and that actually involves a lot of artistic decision making as well, and like really shaping how the work is fabricated, how it's brought into a space, how it's how it's hung, where it's hung, all of those sorts of things.
01:21:41.039 --> 01:21:45.359
Um so yeah, that that's been that's been amazing, that side of it.
01:21:47.279 --> 01:21:53.359
Yeah, I had a partner who was a musician, and we like dabbled in making music together, and I loved it.
01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:56.239
You know, it was a whole different level of relationship.
01:21:56.399 --> 01:22:04.720
If you're somebody that enjoys working, yeah, actually like getting to know somebody who was you know in that context is a completely different thing, isn't it?
01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:05.520
That's amazing.
01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:05.840
Yeah.
01:22:06.239 --> 01:22:08.319
Well, uh, were you playing an instrument?
01:22:08.640 --> 01:22:18.640
No, I was writing lyrics, thanks and failing to understand how drum machines work and able to know why the software was and all the sort of loops and stuff and some points.
01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:26.079
But she was very talented, and we mainly just spent most of it getting a bit confused with with the production than that.
01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:27.920
But had some good ideas.
01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:29.199
Yeah, that's great.
01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:31.039
That's that's the best.
01:22:33.119 --> 01:22:34.560
Have you ever listened back to it?
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.039
Yeah, I mean it's more conceptual.
01:22:39.199 --> 01:22:43.920
I think there's some profound text that I was reading over the top of stuff, which was quite interesting.
01:22:44.159 --> 01:22:44.800
Yeah.
01:22:49.119 --> 01:23:06.319
So if you get advice for younger, younger aspiring curators, then I think there's a lot of lessons you can draw from this conversation here, but it'd be nice to hear your like summary of people starting out um thinking about a curating course.
01:23:06.399 --> 01:23:07.920
Because they even do BAs now as well.
01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:08.720
They do, yeah.
01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:19.279
Yeah, um, yeah, I think there is a lot to be said for the just going with what feels right.
01:23:19.680 --> 01:23:38.399
Um, there is also a lot to be said for like working out beforehand what the thing is actually going to give you, and finding the balance between those things of just like trying, doing, um, and kind of planning, getting that balance right.
01:23:38.479 --> 01:23:40.239
I think that's been the key.
01:23:40.560 --> 01:23:53.039
So um, yeah, saying saying yes to not everything, but as much as is within your interest and your capacity.
01:23:53.520 --> 01:24:02.880
Because it's it's all about like what you learn, who you meet, where you go, um, and that's the thing that kind of sh that that shapes it.
01:24:02.960 --> 01:24:12.640
Um, so I think that not being afraid to just like work out what excites you and just follow follow that as far along as as you possibly can.
01:24:13.199 --> 01:24:14.079
That's nice.
01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:22.319
So uh have a bit of have some ideas and plans but be very open to the opportunities that come along, yeah, but also choose wisely.
01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:24.399
Yeah, you've summarised it better than I could.
01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:30.800
Well, it was your my summary, your your your your concept.
01:24:31.279 --> 01:24:32.960
Okay, so we're coming to the end.
01:24:33.119 --> 01:24:35.760
I'm gonna try asking you a very hard question now.
01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:47.680
So if you could go back in time to any point in history um and be on the shoulders of an artist uh throughout the production of a work, have you got any idea about what that hard work might be?
01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:50.000
Yeah.
01:24:50.720 --> 01:25:01.840
Um any point in time, I would definitely want to go back to maybe like an old court painter know what that's like.
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:35.359
You know, like Horbein did the ambassadors, this painting that's in the national of these like two very stately, like heavily um Tudor-dressed, uh fur clad, straight up, important, expensive clothed men, and then this huge, like sideways skeleton between them that's meant to be viewed from uh from below, like it's got a really, really insane angle on it, and it was supposed to be like an optical illusion, like they sometimes do on church church ceilings, right?
01:25:35.439 --> 01:25:38.399
To make it from your viewpoint supposed to look evened out.
01:25:38.479 --> 01:26:10.319
I don't see how it's possible because they're straight on this thing's like completely stretched, but anyway, not so much about that painting itself, but more about like being able to step in and then out of like what that environment is like of like being employed by someone who you also need to document and therefore do it favourably within that sort of time period when like the royals, I guess, or the the people in court were the like patrons, were the were the art people, but I was moving that on a little bit.
01:26:10.399 --> 01:26:15.920
I think when people were like a broigal, you know, these like scenes of you can only have one.
01:26:16.159 --> 01:26:18.319
Ah, well, okay, there's a couple.
01:26:18.479 --> 01:26:19.439
Can I go through one more?
01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:20.720
Okay, go on, one more.
01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:25.439
There's one there's one work that I really, really love, and it's a more contemporary piece.
01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:28.800
I think it's from the 80s or 90s, I don't actually know for sure.
01:26:28.960 --> 01:26:30.319
By Fishley and Vice.
01:26:31.119 --> 01:26:39.760
It's this video that follows the set of kind of kinetic um moments.
01:26:39.920 --> 01:27:05.840
So so like something with a pin will come in and it will pop a balloon, and the balloon's full of smoke, and the smoke will set off this next thing, and that will tip this thing over, and this thing tips over, and it's got soap in it, and then it like foams up to become bubbles, and the bubbles spill over and it rolls into the next thing, and it's just like this really, really long, slow tracking shot of that whole sequence of events.
01:27:06.159 --> 01:27:27.840
And I think being in that space and first figuring out how to make that work, and like what the sequence of these things is, and kind of making these like little impossible machines, and then setting it off and it actually working, like by the time you've actually got the take where it's it's done the thing.
01:27:27.920 --> 01:27:31.520
I think that that yeah, must have been great.
01:27:31.920 --> 01:27:33.039
That is a great answer.
01:27:37.760 --> 01:27:38.880
Yeah, you you know what I mean?
01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:07.680
Okay, we're coming to the end of the haircut now.
01:28:10.239 --> 01:28:11.359
Just do a little bit.
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:12.479
How's it looking?
01:28:12.960 --> 01:28:14.880
Tricky hairline back here.
01:28:18.479 --> 01:28:19.600
We are getting there.
01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:20.640
How does it feel?
01:28:20.800 --> 01:28:22.720
Well, can you see in the screen on the camera?
01:28:24.159 --> 01:28:33.840
I only see a t I can see myself about the size of a fingernail, so I've got a I've got a sense that the wire is also sort of strategically in front.
01:28:33.920 --> 01:28:35.920
I'm I'm ready for the surprise.
01:28:36.720 --> 01:28:37.039
Okay.
01:28:39.520 --> 01:28:41.039
Let's get a mirror.
01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:46.720
Ta bah.
01:28:47.439 --> 01:28:50.399
Okay Lucy, welcome to your new hair.
01:28:50.800 --> 01:28:51.359
Ooh.
01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:53.199
Nice.
01:28:54.239 --> 01:28:57.600
Yes, definitely an 8 out of 10 change.
01:29:01.039 --> 01:29:01.760
Amazing.
01:29:02.159 --> 01:29:04.960
Questions are the fringe, is that is that okay?
01:29:05.439 --> 01:29:06.960
Push it around a little bit.
01:29:07.119 --> 01:29:09.840
I know it's not going to be going to either side, so.
01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:13.520
Yeah, I like I like that it is essentially still straight over.
01:29:13.920 --> 01:29:15.199
I think that's good.
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:23.039
And that it can have the kind of flexibility of that way, open, out, back.
01:29:23.680 --> 01:29:24.640
Yeah, it's great.
01:29:24.880 --> 01:29:27.199
And the colour, you know, has worked out really well.
01:29:27.359 --> 01:29:28.720
I'll show you the back.
01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:43.840
Yeah, it's it's still, it's um, it's not the way you've the way you've brought it forward a bit, you're right, it's like it doesn't have the ring at all, and it's actually way more red than I thought it would be, but I'm super happy with that.
01:29:44.079 --> 01:29:48.319
Yeah, we'll put some product on in a moment, and that should like separate that a little bit.
01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:52.319
But you've got as I said, nape area there.
01:29:52.720 --> 01:29:53.359
Nice.
01:29:53.840 --> 01:29:54.720
Oh yeah, nice.
01:29:55.760 --> 01:29:59.439
20 odd years in the game who can uh predict that well.
01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:13.199
Um which like I say gives it a bit of dimension, you know, you've got that darker hairline through the back, and then there's some like softer red here, and I think the red works really nice, and I wouldn't even suggest colouring it, I would just like leave it like that.
01:30:13.359 --> 01:30:16.479
Yeah, um, I'll get a bit of product to pop in.
01:30:21.199 --> 01:30:23.039
Yeah, it's super nice.
01:30:24.960 --> 01:30:33.119
So I'm just gonna use some of the texture spray, it's super dry, you'll still be able to move the hair around, but it should just decorate it a little bit.
01:30:42.319 --> 01:30:45.439
It's got mohawk potential, just so it's got what?
01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:46.479
Mohawk potential.
01:30:46.640 --> 01:30:47.840
Mohawk potential.
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:55.039
You can see some of those roots like coming through now.
01:30:57.920 --> 01:31:02.079
Yeah, you're right, it was total for like it's totally an unfounded worry.
01:31:02.479 --> 01:31:02.960
Yeah, yeah.
01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:03.760
Yeah.
01:31:08.800 --> 01:31:11.039
But I knew I'd be in good hands.
01:31:11.840 --> 01:31:12.560
Fantastic.
01:31:12.640 --> 01:31:13.279
Well, there we go.
01:31:13.520 --> 01:31:15.439
Amazing, thanks so much very much.
01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:16.319
Thank you.
01:31:16.479 --> 01:31:17.279
Really nice chat.
01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:18.880
Yeah, it was really good.
01:31:19.279 --> 01:31:22.239
Bye Lucy, bye, thanks for coming.
01:31:22.399 --> 01:31:24.079
Oh, it was really good to see her.
01:31:24.159 --> 01:31:25.600
What an amazing change.
01:31:25.760 --> 01:31:30.399
I'm quite knackered and I was quite unprepared to think I was cutting off so much hair.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:32.880
Have a look at the photos and let me know what you think.
01:31:33.039 --> 01:31:39.039
I really admired how Lucy did not have a plan and just took the opportunities that arose and did what she was excited about.
01:31:39.199 --> 01:31:41.199
I think there's a lesson for us all there.
01:31:41.359 --> 01:31:45.760
And what I really took away from the conversation was not to work too hard.
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:49.119
Don't burn yourself out and make sure it's sustainable.
01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:53.600
Because when we have jobs that we love when we're creative, we just want to work all the time.
01:31:53.760 --> 01:31:55.920
So, yeah, don't burn yourself out.
01:31:56.079 --> 01:32:03.600
And also you can build something with the tools that you've got, whether that just be your flat or your hairdressing skills.
01:32:03.760 --> 01:32:08.640
You don't need to know where you're going, you just need to be excited, follow what you're excited about.
01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:14.720
If you want to know more about Lucy, you can check out the exhibitions that she's produced here at DKUK.
01:32:14.880 --> 01:32:22.239
You can look for the links below, we'll put some links to her project space and to the curatorial collective.
01:32:22.319 --> 01:32:26.800
They're going to be doing the exhibitions at DKUK this year, so keep your eye out for them.
01:32:27.039 --> 01:32:31.600
If you want to come and say hello in the salon, you can find us at dkuk.biz.
01:32:31.840 --> 01:32:35.760
Thank you for watching all the way to the end and see you in the next one.