S3E10: Avoiding Demotivational Traps When Consuming Educational Diversity Media

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[ “Diverse Joy” theme music by Jay Arner plays ]

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[ “Diverse Joy” theme music ends ]

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Welcome to “Diverse Joy” -

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a podcast and educational
video series

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that infuses science, practical skills,

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and - most of all - joy into
diversity discussions.

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My co-host is the pretty-in-pink
Dr. Amber Nelson.

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And my co-host is the bold and stylized

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Dr. William T. L. Cox.

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(Both) Yay!

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So, Will, what's bringing you joy
in this season?

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Well, so this is July of 2026.

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Last year, in July of 2025,

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some friends from the Twin Cities
and Eric Roman and I

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went on a trip
to the San Francisco area

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specifically to go to the
Skywalker Vineyard.

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That's so cool.

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It's really hard to get tickets
to be able to do that.

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We had a tour
of all their kind of winery stuff.

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We had to sign NDAs, presumably to protect
their wine making stuff.

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Proprietary; yes, yes.

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Yeah. It was really cool.

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We got to try a lot of wines and see

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an art gallery of “Star Wars” art

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that's not actually normally open
to the public, which was really cool.

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And while we were there, we also went
to the headquarters of Industrial Light & Magic,

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one of the special effects
companies that started with “Star Wars”.

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Wow. Okay.

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And a few fun things around San Francisco.

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We went to this tiki bar.

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That's really cool.

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It's called Tonga and like, it's indoors,
but indoors they have a lagoon

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and then a floating barge on the lagoon
where a band plays.

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[ Amber ] Okay!

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So that was fun.

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And we had good times
with, with good friends.

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And and Roman can probably share pictures
on the video and it was a lot of fun.

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So cool.

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So I'm going to ask
maybe an ignorant question:

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is - so you said, Skywalker Vineyards?

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Skywalker Ranch.

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It is on Skywalker Ranch?

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Is that the same thing?

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The vineyards and ranch is the same?

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Skywalker Vineyard is on Skywalker Ranch.

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Okay. Okay.

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Okay, so that's where my brain was going.

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So I'm not that far off.
- [ Will ] Yeah.

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Okay, so it's George Lucas's
private vineyard ranch. Land.

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Very cool.

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A lot of the creators in “Star Wars”
come and do retreats there

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when they're kind of
working together on

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coming up with ideas
for their movies and shows.

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[ Producer Eric Roman ]
When he says that we went to

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Industrial Light & Magic,

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he means we went outside the building
because it was the weekend

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and they were closed
and we creeped into the window.

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[ Amber ] Just kind of like looked in!
(Laughs)

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But they had like cool

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life-sized statues of various “Star Wars”
droids and creatures.

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That's awesome.

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Well, I bet that was an
incredible experience for you all,

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especially as such big
“Star Wars” buffs.

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So, very cool.
- [ Will ] It was a blast.

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That's awesome. That's awesome.

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So what about you, Amber?

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What's bringing you joy?

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Well, over the last year
in particular, I think for … uhhhh …

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… longer than that,

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but really very intentionally

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over the last year or so, I have been really
leaning into dopamine dressing,

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meaning wearing clothes that are just fun,

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that bring me joy,

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that like are colorful
and mixing patterns.

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And I've found a few clothing stores,

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online stores,
that really lean into that esthetic,

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like just smiley faces and just mixing
all kinds of different things.

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New Works is one of my favorites.

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And yeah, just really just having fun
with what I'm wearing,

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my jewelry, and my clothes,
and mixing things.

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And it has just --
it has always brought me joy to like,

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play with my clothing
and my glasses and things like that, but

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I have just really leaned very hard
into that in the last year

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and been much more bold
and just more playful with my clothing,

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and it just brings me a lot of joy,
and it's really fun to see

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my patients, my kids really respond to it,
and it breaks this

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barrier with kiddos that meet me
for the first time

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and being able to see me be just like,

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bold and like, use it as a
as a means of creating connection

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and conversation
and rapport building with my patients.

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And I've had like, kids tell me like, oh,
you remind me of Elsbeth,

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which is a character on TV
that's really quirky

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and fun and kind of always very vibrant.

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And that those are the things like,
“oh, I saw you in the waiting room.

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And I wanted to, like, ask for you
specifically to be my behavioral health,

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you know, clinician.”

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Aw!

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And and so anyway,
it brings me a lot of joy.

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And I think it brings other people joy, too,

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when they just can see somebody,

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especially as a professional,

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just be playful and fun and

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be boldly themselves and just unabashed
in kind of what you're wearing.

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And so, yep!
Dopamine dressing has been my joy,

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and have really leaned
pretty far into it in the last year or so.

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- [ Will ] That’s awesome!
- [ Amber ] Yep! Dopamine dressing.

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Very cool, very cool.

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Yeah.

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So Will, what are we talking about today?

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So, you know, we always talk about
kind of our model for creating change

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that you like to talk about as the MATE:
Motivation, Awareness, Tools, and Effort.

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You know, making meaningful change
and sustaining it

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requires we all maintain that motivation

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to keep working on bias,
keep learning new things and all of that.

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But there are some things that folks do

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or kind of traps
they can kind of fall into,

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or trap themselves in, that can result
in kind of demotivating them.

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There are a lot of things

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that people think are going
to be really beneficial for diversity

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or for anti-racism or whatever,

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but then the end result,
the research shows,

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tends to be less motivation
rather than more.

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Right.

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And so we're going to talk about
some of those kind of de-motivational traps

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with an eye on understanding them.

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So we can make sure
that we don't fall into them.

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Absolutely.

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One of the places where
I tend to talk about this the most --

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these traps can really happen
with regard to many different domains,

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but especially
with kind of educational media.

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So a lot of times people --
you know, on our show,

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we emphasize entertainment media
a lot as a powerful way

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to kind of build that diverse joy
that helps work against bias.

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And we don't focus as much

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on educational media,
not because it's wrong or anything.

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You know, we of course support that,

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but kind of everyone else
already talks about that.

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I'm sure there are a million
other diversity podcasts,

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diversity reading lists, and things
that are going to focus

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on all the different biopics
you should be reading

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or watching or whatever, that kind of
have more of an educational focus.

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And so so that's just

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we don't want to duplicate the work
that's already out there a lot.

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Also, educational media very often
literally speaks for itself.

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Right!

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The headlines or what they say
in the trailer of a biopic,

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it's like, “Oh, this important historical
figure who you need to know about.”

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It's literally telling you why you
should be watching it.

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Those types of media
really advocate for themselves.

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Whereas the more kind of entertainment stuff,
which on the back end

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might kind of have the net effect
of also working against bias,

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we try to speak for for that side of it.

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But we never are trying

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to discourage people
from that kind of educational media.

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It's a “both/and.”
It's a “yes, and” like you like to say.

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We want both.

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We're emphasizing entertainment a lot
because we think it's under emphasized.

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But when people engage
with that kind of educational media.

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Oh, and I should also say

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entertainment and educational media
are not necessarily discrete concepts.

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They can definitely be both.

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Good entertainment media
teaches us important lessons about life.

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Good educational media should be kind
of entertaining and engaging.

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But when I make those categories
and mostly talking about how people

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kind of approach it:
Are they approaching it with solemnity?

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Like, “Oh, I'm going to be learning
something!” Or with joy?

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Right!

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So again, we're not trying --

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We never try to shy people away
from educational media,

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but there are these kind of de-motivational traps
that some types of educational media

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or some ways of consuming it
that people can fall into.

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And so we're going to talk through
these four de-motivational traps - we are!

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Just so that people can understand
how they can be de-motivational,

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and to make sure that when you engage

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with educational content that
you don't let it de-motivate you.

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Right, right.

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The first of these
de-motivational traps

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traps is sometimes folks,
in their media diet,

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their diversity education, media diet,

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they focus to exclusively
on stuff that is sad.

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- [ Amber ] Right.

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Depressing. The atrocities of the past,
the atrocities of the present.

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My kind of go to example of this:

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There were a lot of folks
during the pandemic

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with kind of response to George Floyd
started being paying more attention

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maybe to anti-racism work,
and a lot of book clubs started.

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And I know in particular one,
it was a “White women's book club”

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for anti-racism, and they would
read books each and every one of the books

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I'm sure is great and important
and covers important topics.

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But they were all about just how awful
things are for people of color,

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especially Black folks,

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and the person I was who was
telling me about this, she was like,

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“You know, every time,
I just started dreading this book club

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because it made me so sad,

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not because I didn't believe
it was important

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and women
started dropping out of the group.”

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Even saying, “It’s because it just
makes me sad all the time.”

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Yeah, yeah. It’s too depressing.

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Too depressing. And so focusing
too exclusively on kind of the negative

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without having that joy, without having,
“Well, how are we making progress?”

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And something where you can kind
of see that progress or feel that progress

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when you're making changes in your life,
it’s demotivational.

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And that kind of harkens back to what
we talked about with ADHD a little bit.

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You need that dopamine to --

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- [ Amber ]Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah! You got to have something
that's going to motivate you. Right?

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That's going to -- You have to pair the thing
that you are less motivated by or

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that's less -- that you're trying
to avoid internally.

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Right?

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And, and there's, there's a --

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there's room and there's importance
in doing the educational work.

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Right?

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Like I applaud them for

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doing that work and saying,
“Hey, we need to learn.

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We need to do better.”
And you have to pair it -

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You have to pair it with the hope part.

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Because if you only pair --
If you're only going down the negative path,

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you get stuck in the mire
and then it feels like there's no way out.

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It feels like this is a massive system

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with historical, entrenched roots.

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What am I going to do about this? Right?

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- [ Will ] Yeah, you feel powerless.

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You feel completely powerless
and you have nothing to move towards.

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You have to have some sort of carrot.

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You have to have --

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So and I think I've brought this

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term before, but Sankofa.
Right?

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So there's this idea of Sankofa,

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and it is this idea that you are
firmly rooted with your feet moving forward,

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feet forward,
and also looking to the past.

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So you have to look at the past.

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You have to look at where we've been,
what's been going on, what the hard things are.

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But we also have to be firmly rooted
in moving forward as well.

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And you have to have something

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that you're going
to be motivated to be moving towards.

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And if it all feels just hopeless,

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then you get into a paralysis.

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00:12:07,793 --> 00:12:09,662
You get into a paralysis state.

239
00:12:09,662 --> 00:12:11,464
Yeah. And it also relates to something

240
00:12:11,464 --> 00:12:14,567
we've discussed throughout the season,
which is, you know, avoidance.

241
00:12:14,567 --> 00:12:16,235
Like we want to “avoid avoidance.”

242
00:12:16,235 --> 00:12:20,840
So also focusing on the negative things,
even if it's just present day stuff,

243
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,042
not necessarily the past.

244
00:12:23,042 --> 00:12:26,345
If it’s all, “Don't do this, don't do that,
don't do this.”

245
00:12:26,345 --> 00:12:29,115
All of the things
you should avoid doing,

246
00:12:29,115 --> 00:12:31,016
that also has
that kind of paralyzing effect.

247
00:12:31,016 --> 00:12:34,153
Or people just don't know
what they should be doing.

248
00:12:34,153 --> 00:12:35,888
They just don't know what not to do.

249
00:12:35,888 --> 00:12:40,459
Yeah, I talk about that
a lot with parenting with with my kids.

250
00:12:40,459 --> 00:12:40,926
Right?

251
00:12:40,926 --> 00:12:44,230
Is that often as parents will --

252
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:49,068
parents will go to that that place
of telling kids don't do something.

253
00:12:49,068 --> 00:12:52,071
But that's been there, go to right.

254
00:12:52,071 --> 00:12:55,341
Or that is the way in which they're coping
or that is the way

255
00:12:55,341 --> 00:12:56,675
in which they are handling this.

256
00:12:56,675 --> 00:12:58,677
And then all of a sudden
you take that thing away

257
00:12:58,677 --> 00:13:02,715
and they don't have something to replace
it with, and sometimes it gets worse

258
00:13:02,715 --> 00:13:07,486
because we've not replaced it
with anything to move them towards.

259
00:13:07,486 --> 00:13:10,523
We've just say,
“Don't do X, Y, or Z.”

260
00:13:10,523 --> 00:13:13,526
Like, “Well, what am I supposed to do
when I encounter this thing?”

261
00:13:13,526 --> 00:13:14,093
Right?

262
00:13:14,093 --> 00:13:17,062
So having too narrow a focus

263
00:13:17,062 --> 00:13:21,333
on only sad,
atrocity -type things that,

264
00:13:21,333 --> 00:13:24,537
that's one of the big de-motivational traps.

265
00:13:24,537 --> 00:13:28,207
The next one is something that we study
in the research literature,

266
00:13:28,207 --> 00:13:30,309
the behavioral literature,
called anchoring,

267
00:13:30,309 --> 00:13:32,111
which kind of relates
to part of what you said.

268
00:13:32,111 --> 00:13:33,846
So sometimes people

269
00:13:33,846 --> 00:13:37,817
will look at the kind of atrocities -
again to keep reusing that word,

270
00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:41,720
and then they use that as a basis
for comparison for their own behavior.

271
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:42,488
Right. Right.

272
00:13:42,488 --> 00:13:47,326
So they look at slave owners in the past,
people who were enslaving folks,

273
00:13:47,326 --> 00:13:50,563
and then they kind of
define racism by that.

274
00:13:50,563 --> 00:13:54,033
And they say, “Well, compared
to a slave owner, I'm great.”

275
00:13:54,033 --> 00:13:55,668
- [ Amber ] “I’m not that bad.”
- [ Will ] And you know what, you are.

276
00:13:55,668 --> 00:13:56,702
Yeah.

277
00:13:56,702 --> 00:13:59,705
But the problem is
when you have your anchor

278
00:13:59,705 --> 00:14:04,810
on an extreme form of racism
or bias or whatever we're talking about,

279
00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:06,412
you're always going to look
better than that.

280
00:14:06,412 --> 00:14:07,880
And it's too easy.

281
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,317
That doesn't mean you don't have progress
to make or something to work on.

282
00:14:11,317 --> 00:14:13,385
And so we talk about in the

283
00:14:13,385 --> 00:14:16,722
a lot of the research on this, talks
about it almost exactly like I just did,

284
00:14:16,722 --> 00:14:19,625
anchoring on the past versus
the future,

285
00:14:19,625 --> 00:14:24,029
where we've overcome bias and everyone's treated
equally and has equal opportunities.

286
00:14:24,029 --> 00:14:26,232
People who anchor on the future

287
00:14:26,232 --> 00:14:29,602
tend to be more motivated
and work more towards that future.

288
00:14:29,602 --> 00:14:32,271
The other way can it can happen
is just within the present.

289
00:14:32,271 --> 00:14:35,241
So if you look at statistics
on hate crimes or

290
00:14:35,241 --> 00:14:41,280
people like ICE kidnaping immigrants
and shoving them into vans,

291
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,983
and if that ends up defining what racism is

292
00:14:43,983 --> 00:14:46,518
and I mean it is a part of what racism is.

293
00:14:46,518 --> 00:14:47,186
It is part of it.
Yes.

294
00:14:47,186 --> 00:14:49,755
But if you compare yourself to that,
of course you're going to look great.

295
00:14:49,755 --> 00:14:51,490
And so then people are like,
“Well, I'm so great,

296
00:14:51,490 --> 00:14:53,826
I'm so much better than that.”

297
00:14:53,826 --> 00:14:54,927
“This form.” Mmhmm.

298
00:14:54,927 --> 00:14:56,362
But they're demotivated.

299
00:14:56,362 --> 00:15:01,100
So, so don't use others’ negative behavior,
especially extreme negative behavior

300
00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:03,769
as a basis for judging
yourself positively.

301
00:15:03,769 --> 00:15:07,673
You probably -- everyone listening to this
probably is very good compared

302
00:15:07,673 --> 00:15:12,411
to those awful extremes - for sure -
but don't let that de-motivate you.

303
00:15:12,411 --> 00:15:17,583
You want to keep working and keep learning
and keep cultivating diverse joy.

304
00:15:17,583 --> 00:15:18,384
Absolutely.

305
00:15:18,384 --> 00:15:21,787
Well, and it reminds me of -
last year in particular -

306
00:15:21,787 --> 00:15:27,159
and it continues to be a conversation,
there's this group on YouTube

307
00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:30,930
and they have clips and stuff across
all social media platforms called Jubilee.

308
00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:33,399
And they do this --

309
00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:36,101
They do several different things
with the intent

310
00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:40,272
of trying to create commonality

311
00:15:40,272 --> 00:15:44,576
and have discussions around
perhaps more controversial topics.

312
00:15:44,576 --> 00:15:48,414
They started
this series called “Surrounded”

313
00:15:48,414 --> 00:15:52,885
and they have one person in the middle

314
00:15:52,885 --> 00:15:57,356
that has a particular view,
and then they have like 20 people

315
00:15:57,356 --> 00:16:02,728
on the opposite
end of the spectrum to debate with.

316
00:16:02,728 --> 00:16:08,834
And they've come under fire recently
because it rather than it being like,

317
00:16:08,834 --> 00:16:12,304
“Oh, here are two kind of equally valid --”

318
00:16:12,304 --> 00:16:13,038
Intellectually valid.

319
00:16:13,038 --> 00:16:16,375
“ -- intellectually valid kind of perspectives here,

320
00:16:16,375 --> 00:16:21,413
we have - usually - one person
who's fairly well researched is grounded,

321
00:16:21,413 --> 00:16:27,252
and then people that are very extreme
versions of the opposite end.”

322
00:16:27,252 --> 00:16:31,690
And so then people,
I think, the conversation

323
00:16:31,690 --> 00:16:33,158
and criticism has been like,

324
00:16:33,158 --> 00:16:39,064
“We're now normalizing this is what
the opposite of this perspective is.”

325
00:16:39,064 --> 00:16:41,767
And so people are going like,
“Well, I don't have to change.

326
00:16:41,767 --> 00:16:42,668
I'm not that bad.

327
00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:45,437
I'm not advocating
for those things.”

328
00:16:45,437 --> 00:16:45,671
Right?

329
00:16:45,671 --> 00:16:50,509
And so it's not actually
moving folks

330
00:16:50,509 --> 00:16:53,445
to what their hope is -
again - is around to be able

331
00:16:53,445 --> 00:16:57,583
to have conversations
because people on both ends

332
00:16:57,583 --> 00:17:01,820
kind of feel more validated
in their perspectives or more validated --

333
00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:03,389
They feel like they're more moderate
than maybe they are.

334
00:17:03,389 --> 00:17:05,958
They feel that they're more moderate
than they actually are.

335
00:17:05,958 --> 00:17:09,361
And so they're not actually moving towards
trying to have better conversations

336
00:17:09,361 --> 00:17:13,165
because they're seeing these extreme ends
and saying,

337
00:17:13,165 --> 00:17:16,969
“Well, I'm not there. I'm not saying
we need to have all White communities.”

338
00:17:16,969 --> 00:17:17,469
Right?

339
00:17:17,469 --> 00:17:21,006
Which has been something that has come up
in some of those conversations.

340
00:17:21,006 --> 00:17:23,142
- [ Will ] And one that you told me about
before we were on mic

341
00:17:23,142 --> 00:17:25,010
that really stuck with me:

342
00:17:25,010 --> 00:17:27,646
There was someone who
self-identified as a fascist.

343
00:17:27,646 --> 00:17:28,814
Yes, yes.

344
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:31,083
So someone was like, “I am a fascist.
I believe in fascism.”

345
00:17:31,083 --> 00:17:33,919
And so I think of the more moderate person
who might hear that and be like,

346
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:34,753
“Oh, I'm pretty good.”

347
00:17:34,753 --> 00:17:38,457
But that more moderate person
might still be supporting policies …

348
00:17:38,457 --> 00:17:39,191
- 100%.

349
00:17:39,191 --> 00:17:41,827
… that end up promoting a form of fascism.

350
00:17:41,827 --> 00:17:42,761
And with them

351
00:17:42,761 --> 00:17:46,198
comparing themselves to that extreme,
they won't even examine that as much.

352
00:17:46,198 --> 00:17:50,402
And there was even somebody on that
same episode that self-identified

353
00:17:50,402 --> 00:17:55,507
as far right.
And far right conservative.

354
00:17:55,507 --> 00:17:59,411
And then he's like,
“Uh, I thought I was extreme,

355
00:17:59,411 --> 00:18:00,546
I thought I was really far right,

356
00:18:00,546 --> 00:18:03,182
but I'm much more moderate
than I thought I was.”

357
00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:04,483
Because there were these people

358
00:18:04,483 --> 00:18:08,754
that literally self-identified as fascists
and saying these things

359
00:18:08,754 --> 00:18:11,757
that I just never thought that I'd hear
somebody say, you know?

360
00:18:11,757 --> 00:18:14,526
And so it's anchoring again.
It's anchoring.

361
00:18:14,526 --> 00:18:18,831
And so then it moves --
rather than what the intent is to have

362
00:18:18,831 --> 00:18:22,034
people have conversation
and try to move closer to the middle.

363
00:18:22,034 --> 00:18:23,068
It's actually helped --

364
00:18:23,068 --> 00:18:25,971
What it's doing is it's causing
people to move …

365
00:18:25,971 --> 00:18:26,905
- [ Will ] Move farther apart.

366
00:18:26,905 --> 00:18:30,742
… move farther apart,
and kind of stick a little bit more firmly

367
00:18:30,742 --> 00:18:34,113
in their beliefs rather than actually
moving closer together.

368
00:18:34,113 --> 00:18:36,315
It also reminds you a bit
of confirmation bias.

369
00:18:36,315 --> 00:18:40,185
You know, you're getting
lots of confirmatory examples

370
00:18:40,185 --> 00:18:42,888
that, “Hey, you're pretty moderate,”
or what have you.

371
00:18:42,888 --> 00:18:43,489
And then

372
00:18:43,489 --> 00:18:47,860
we already know you're inclined to weigh
those types of examples extra heavily.

373
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:52,865
Well, and there are books and there's
lots of research around - even in politics, right? -

374
00:18:52,865 --> 00:18:55,067
not even getting
into specifics of politics -

375
00:18:55,067 --> 00:18:59,438
but that the research would show
that we are …

376
00:18:59,438 --> 00:19:03,876
there's more people in the purple range
than there are on the far ends,

377
00:19:03,876 --> 00:19:06,879
though right now
I think we have a lot of separation.

378
00:19:06,879 --> 00:19:12,918
There's a book called called
“Beyond Your Bubble” by Tanya -

379
00:19:12,918 --> 00:19:17,222
I can't remember her last name,
so I'll let Eric Roman look that up.

380
00:19:17,222 --> 00:19:19,525
But she talks a lot about that.

381
00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:23,629
Like how we can have better
“middling” conversations

382
00:19:23,629 --> 00:19:25,998
because the research would support
that more of us

383
00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:29,434
fall in this purple area than others.

384
00:19:29,434 --> 00:19:35,207
Yep! “Beyond Your Bubble, How to Connect
Across Political Lines”

385
00:19:35,207 --> 00:19:36,808
Yeah. What is that?

386
00:19:36,808 --> 00:19:39,945
- [ Producer Eric Roman ] It’s, ”Beyond Your Bubble,
How to Connect Across Political Divide:

387
00:19:39,945 --> 00:19:44,316
Skills and Strategies for Conversations That Work”
by Tanya Israel.

388
00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:46,885
Israel. That's right. Yeah.
- [ Will] Cool.

389
00:19:46,885 --> 00:19:50,789
Anyway, she talks a lot about that, right?

390
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:53,292
That like, “Hey, there is so much here.”

391
00:19:53,292 --> 00:19:55,694
But what that does

392
00:19:55,694 --> 00:20:01,366
is it really pushes us to this idea that -
and that confirmation bias -

393
00:20:01,366 --> 00:20:06,071
that's where I was going with it,
is that we already think like,

394
00:20:06,071 --> 00:20:10,943
“Ooh, people that don't agree with me
are on this other end of the spectrum.”

395
00:20:10,943 --> 00:20:13,946
And then you put them in a situation
like that and it’s,

396
00:20:13,946 --> 00:20:19,384
“See, see - everybody that doesn't believe,
they're all over here.”

397
00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:21,553
And we lose the opportunity.

398
00:20:21,553 --> 00:20:23,355
We lose the opportunity to move forward.

399
00:20:23,355 --> 00:20:24,623
We lose opportunity.

400
00:20:24,623 --> 00:20:27,025
And it's demotivating.
Right? Right.

401
00:20:27,025 --> 00:20:28,227
So anchoring.

402
00:20:28,227 --> 00:20:31,129
Yeah, that comparison to those extremes

403
00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:33,398
ends up demotivating folks.

404
00:20:33,398 --> 00:20:34,266
Don't do that.

405
00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:37,636
And I think being aware of
hate groups, hate crimes,

406
00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:41,773
the atrocities of the past and the present,
it's an important part of being informed citizens.

407
00:20:41,773 --> 00:20:42,874
So again,

408
00:20:42,874 --> 00:20:44,743
this is a “both/and.”
We should still be doing that.

409
00:20:44,743 --> 00:20:48,814
Just make sure you're not doing it
in a way that de-motivates you.

410
00:20:48,814 --> 00:20:50,782
Our goal is always to maintain
that motivation.

411
00:20:50,782 --> 00:20:53,285
We all have to keep building
a better world piece by piece.

412
00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:54,886
- [ Amber ] Right!
- [ Will ] All right.

413
00:20:54,886 --> 00:20:56,655
Next de-motivational trap:

414
00:20:56,655 --> 00:20:58,757
Also kind of leans into
some of these

415
00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:01,827
things that might have more
negative emotions associated with them.

416
00:21:01,827 --> 00:21:06,398
But some people see
feeling bad as an end in itself.

417
00:21:07,132 --> 00:21:11,069
So the most extreme example of this
and now I'm bringing in an extreme, so,

418
00:21:11,069 --> 00:21:13,939
but the most extreme
example of this,

419
00:21:13,939 --> 00:21:17,809
I remember people sending me
this article years ago.

420
00:21:17,809 --> 00:21:21,847
There were these White folks
who were paying these Black people

421
00:21:21,847 --> 00:21:24,516
to kind of yell at them
and tell them how racist they were.

422
00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:25,050
- [ Amber ] Wild.

423
00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:26,451
Wild behavior.

424
00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:29,721
And, and I saw a lot of
I mean, this even goes

425
00:21:29,721 --> 00:21:32,724
beyond the bad DEI
we talk about sometimes,

426
00:21:32,724 --> 00:21:34,593
to I don't even know
what it's supposed to be,

427
00:21:34,593 --> 00:21:38,463
except for this pitfall: catharsis.

428
00:21:38,463 --> 00:21:42,634
So, White people think, you know,
“Oh, I have if I have privilege,”

429
00:21:42,634 --> 00:21:44,503
you know, there's they have

430
00:21:44,503 --> 00:21:47,372
sometimes this narrative
that there's kind of a sin to being White,

431
00:21:47,372 --> 00:21:51,109
and then they need some kind
of self-flagellation or punishment

432
00:21:51,109 --> 00:21:55,013
for the sin of being White,
and then use these kinds of things

433
00:21:55,013 --> 00:21:56,315
where it's like,
“I've spent a lot of time

434
00:21:56,315 --> 00:21:59,685
feeling really bad about myself
or really bad about racism.”

435
00:21:59,685 --> 00:22:01,653
And then that's kind of the checkbox.

436
00:22:01,653 --> 00:22:05,991
Like, “I've done the work because
I've spent time feeling bad about this.”

437
00:22:05,991 --> 00:22:06,358
Exactly.

438
00:22:06,358 --> 00:22:06,758
Yeah.

439
00:22:06,758 --> 00:22:10,595
And we see this take many, many forms,
even many that are less extreme than

440
00:22:10,595 --> 00:22:11,930
that one I mentioned.

441
00:22:11,930 --> 00:22:14,533
And I mean, you run
into people who say things like,

442
00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:17,703
“Oh well, I went to this workshop
and it made me feel so bad about racism.

443
00:22:17,703 --> 00:22:18,937
So I've really done the work.”

444
00:22:18,937 --> 00:22:21,273
It's like, is that doing the work?

445
00:22:21,273 --> 00:22:23,909
Is that the marker for doing the work?

446
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:27,512
Is feeling bad about yourself
or feeling bad about the history?

447
00:22:27,512 --> 00:22:30,182
How does that make
the Black folks lives better?

448
00:22:30,182 --> 00:22:31,249
Right, right.

449
00:22:31,249 --> 00:22:33,285
I mean, unless the Black folks
are doing the yelling!

450
00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:35,587
It doesn’t change anything.
Exactly.

451
00:22:35,587 --> 00:22:40,158
And so we see this in many forms,
as I said, but like not using

452
00:22:40,158 --> 00:22:44,262
whatever the educational media is
as a catharsis that lets you off the hook.

453
00:22:44,262 --> 00:22:44,730
Like, yeah,

454
00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:48,533
what progress, you know, are you actually
making going through these things?

455
00:22:49,034 --> 00:22:52,070
Make sure you're making real progress,
not just kind of feeling better about yourself.

456
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:53,038
- [ Amber ] Feeling better.

457
00:22:53,038 --> 00:22:55,006
Not just a release.

458
00:22:55,006 --> 00:22:56,875
A screaming in the woods, right?

459
00:22:56,875 --> 00:23:00,045
Which, you know,
we need a little catharsis every so often.

460
00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:04,349
And catharsis does not make change.

461
00:23:04,349 --> 00:23:08,854
And part of why
I think this happens is guilt.

462
00:23:09,688 --> 00:23:11,323
So people sometimes talk
about White Guilt,

463
00:23:11,323 --> 00:23:12,891
but this can be any kind of guilt.

464
00:23:12,891 --> 00:23:14,793
You know,
guilt is a really important emotion

465
00:23:14,793 --> 00:23:18,029
because it can motivate you
to make change.

466
00:23:18,029 --> 00:23:21,800
Like my PhD advisor’s
whole long career looks at how

467
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,105
when folks have good personal values
that oppose bias, but then they see ways

468
00:23:27,105 --> 00:23:29,441
that they could have behaved with bias,
they feel guilty.

469
00:23:29,441 --> 00:23:30,842
It's a cognitive dissonance thing.

470
00:23:30,842 --> 00:23:33,145
The difference between
how they wish they'd behaved

471
00:23:33,145 --> 00:23:36,047
and how they actually behaved
creates guilt.

472
00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:39,818
And then that guilt motivates them
to work on creating change.

473
00:23:39,818 --> 00:23:44,156
But that guilt emotion, you can relieve it
if you've been “punished,” so to speak.

474
00:23:44,322 --> 00:23:47,225
There's kind of that,
that idea of this catharsis.

475
00:23:47,225 --> 00:23:52,197
So don't use the guilt to then
get punished and relieve the guilt.

476
00:23:52,197 --> 00:23:53,598
Use the guilt to make progress.

477
00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:55,333
That's how we stop
having the guilt

478
00:23:55,333 --> 00:23:58,837
is by knowing we're actually
doing beneficial, positive things.

479
00:23:58,837 --> 00:23:59,638
Absolutely.

480
00:23:59,638 --> 00:24:02,307
And then our final pitfall

481
00:24:02,307 --> 00:24:06,645
has to do with content
that is more positive.

482
00:24:06,645 --> 00:24:08,780
Biopics about inspirational figures,

483
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:14,186
people who have overcome hardships and only kind
of those kinds of positive things.

484
00:24:14,186 --> 00:24:14,853
And this is something

485
00:24:14,853 --> 00:24:18,256
that we've actually seen in some of my
and my colleagues’ research on

486
00:24:18,256 --> 00:24:19,724
the bias habit-breaking training.

487
00:24:19,724 --> 00:24:22,928
We an older version of the training
had one part

488
00:24:22,928 --> 00:24:27,032
that people could construe as like,
“Hey, look out for inspirational figures.”

489
00:24:27,032 --> 00:24:30,669
And some of the people were looking at,
say, Barack Obama.

490
00:24:30,669 --> 00:24:33,872
and being like, “Well, if a Black man can be
president, racism is over.” Right?

491
00:24:33,872 --> 00:24:34,806
- [ Amber ] Right. Yeah.

492
00:24:34,806 --> 00:24:35,907
And so they would see

493
00:24:35,907 --> 00:24:41,112
if one inspirational figure overcomes
the hardships that people face,

494
00:24:41,112 --> 00:24:45,083
they're like, “Oh, it must not be that hard.
Any Black person could be president,”

495
00:24:45,083 --> 00:24:45,984
or whatever.

496
00:24:45,984 --> 00:24:49,988
And so focusing too narrowly
on inspirational figures again,

497
00:24:49,988 --> 00:24:54,893
de-motivates you to work on things
because you think racism isn't as big of a problem,

498
00:24:54,893 --> 00:24:58,230
or anti-gay prejudice or
sexism or whatever the thing is.

499
00:24:58,230 --> 00:25:04,369
It gives you false security
in the sense that we've made more progress

500
00:25:04,369 --> 00:25:07,672
or we're beyond something
than we actually are, right?

501
00:25:07,672 --> 00:25:10,542
Rather than saying
like, “Here's an example,”

502
00:25:10,542 --> 00:25:14,513
we have to have the hope, we have to have
some of that - right? - of saying like,

503
00:25:14,513 --> 00:25:16,214
“Okay, so it is possible.”

504
00:25:16,214 --> 00:25:22,187
And how many examples do we have of
a person of color becoming the president?

505
00:25:22,187 --> 00:25:24,189
One. One!
(Both laughing)

506
00:25:24,189 --> 00:25:27,592
So if we say that like,
“Yeah, this is great.

507
00:25:27,592 --> 00:25:34,132
It is a sign of of some progress,
AND we need more of this.”

508
00:25:34,132 --> 00:25:34,466
Right?

509
00:25:34,466 --> 00:25:36,968
Rather than saying like,
“Hey, it's happened once,

510
00:25:36,968 --> 00:25:40,505
therefore we're beyond race.”
Which, how many times have I heard that?

511
00:25:40,505 --> 00:25:42,040
So many times!

512
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,608
Especially in the Obama era.

513
00:25:43,608 --> 00:25:46,878
That like,
“Oh, we're in a post-racial society.”

514
00:25:46,878 --> 00:25:51,917
And that's just not --
and I think since then in particular,

515
00:25:51,917 --> 00:25:56,521
we've definitely seen
that we are not a post-racial society.

516
00:25:56,521 --> 00:25:57,088
Right?

517
00:25:57,088 --> 00:26:01,192
And racism, bias, oppression,
all those things, they're not dichotomous.

518
00:26:01,192 --> 00:26:03,795
It's not, “Oh, they're on
and then they're off.”

519
00:26:03,795 --> 00:26:04,629
It never will be.

520
00:26:04,629 --> 00:26:08,033
It's always a continuous variable.

521
00:26:08,033 --> 00:26:09,801
So those are the four.

522
00:26:09,801 --> 00:26:12,837
And now we're going to take a little
break and then we'll be back.

523
00:26:12,837 --> 00:26:17,342
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]

524
00:26:17,342 --> 00:26:20,145
Welcome back from break.

525
00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:21,713
Before we go to the story time,

526
00:26:21,713 --> 00:26:26,051
actually I just had a couple other thoughts
about the inspirational part, too,

527
00:26:26,051 --> 00:26:28,486
is you know,

528
00:26:28,486 --> 00:26:32,924
not only does it demotivate us
from moving forward,

529
00:26:32,924 --> 00:26:40,966
but it also diminishes
the work of X person that we're looking at

530
00:26:40,966 --> 00:26:43,902
is that that idea of like
“inspiration porn,” right?

531
00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:46,271
Where it dehumanizes.

532
00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:47,973
It can reinforce stereotypes.

533
00:26:47,973 --> 00:26:53,445
It can reinforce perceptions that are just
not necessarily fully accurate.

534
00:26:53,445 --> 00:26:54,312
Right?

535
00:26:54,312 --> 00:26:57,782
And so I just - I don't know - I just think
that it's important for us

536
00:26:57,782 --> 00:27:03,388
to hold contextual understanding
of these inspirational folks.

537
00:27:03,388 --> 00:27:05,323
Is Obama, and Michelle,
you know,

538
00:27:05,323 --> 00:27:08,159
Barack and Michelle inspirational?

539
00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:08,827
Yeah.

540
00:27:08,827 --> 00:27:13,031
They are incredibly inspirational
for so many reasons.

541
00:27:13,598 --> 00:27:16,368
Is Martin Luther King Jr. inspirational?

542
00:27:16,368 --> 00:27:18,370
Absolutely.

543
00:27:18,670 --> 00:27:20,872
Malcolm X.
Like all of these people.

544
00:27:20,872 --> 00:27:21,606
Absolutely.

545
00:27:21,606 --> 00:27:26,277
And: it reduces them to one part,

546
00:27:26,277 --> 00:27:30,315
the quote unquote best part
that makes us feel good.

547
00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:34,919
And it dismisses what it took
for them to get there.

548
00:27:34,919 --> 00:27:37,188
Like I think about MLK,

549
00:27:37,188 --> 00:27:41,793
he was not universally loved
when he was alive.

550
00:27:41,793 --> 00:27:44,963
Right?
Like, the man was assassinated! Right?

551
00:27:44,963 --> 00:27:47,999
The idea that, like,

552
00:27:47,999 --> 00:27:51,970
this is our inspiration
and “Oh, we we love him.” Yes -

553
00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:56,374
and you're missing
a whole part of the story.

554
00:27:56,374 --> 00:27:57,542
And I think, again,

555
00:27:57,542 --> 00:27:59,544
thinking about things in that way,

556
00:27:59,544 --> 00:28:03,481
that kind of inspiration
or only looking at inspirational figures

557
00:28:03,481 --> 00:28:08,086
as an indicator that we've
made it or anything that kind of, again,

558
00:28:08,086 --> 00:28:08,853
demotivates us,

559
00:28:08,853 --> 00:28:10,121
we have to contextualize it.

560
00:28:10,121 --> 00:28:11,823
And if we contextualize it,

561
00:28:11,823 --> 00:28:16,861
we may have more of that motivation
of like, “Look at all -- yes!”

562
00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:20,198
Amazing, incredible people.
Look what they've done.

563
00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:24,302
And! Look what it took for them
to do the thing.

564
00:28:24,302 --> 00:28:28,173
And how much more could they have done
if they didn't have some of the obstacles?

565
00:28:28,173 --> 00:28:31,543
How much more could they have done
if we were in a different place socially

566
00:28:31,543 --> 00:28:34,946
or and we were in a different place
culturally, or we were, you know,

567
00:28:34,946 --> 00:28:37,982
they have more people
like me to come alongside them, you know?

568
00:28:37,982 --> 00:28:41,753
And how many more people like this
can we have in the future

569
00:28:41,753 --> 00:28:47,125
if I contribute to change
personally and culturally.

570
00:28:47,125 --> 00:28:47,425
Right?

571
00:28:47,425 --> 00:28:48,660
And some of what you're saying
reminded me of

572
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:51,563
something you mentioned,
I think it was last season,

573
00:28:51,563 --> 00:28:55,400
so a while back, kind of -
I believe the word’s a dialectic,

574
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,037
like holding kind of two opposing or
potentially opposing thoughts, you know,

575
00:28:59,037 --> 00:29:01,906
the inspirational figure
and the difficulties they faced

576
00:29:01,906 --> 00:29:02,574
Absolutely.

577
00:29:02,574 --> 00:29:04,709
Both are important to recognize.
- [ Amber ] Yeah, yeah.

578
00:29:04,709 --> 00:29:07,545
I mean, we don't want to diminish the work
that they've done

579
00:29:07,545 --> 00:29:09,981
and or even say that it's not inspiring.

580
00:29:09,981 --> 00:29:11,883
It absolutely is inspiring.

581
00:29:11,883 --> 00:29:17,689
And we have to hold all of those truths,
all those truths to be self-evident.

582
00:29:17,689 --> 00:29:21,559
And bringing it kind of full circle
to talking about specifically media you consume,

583
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:24,229
you know, it's also I mean, it can be okay

584
00:29:24,229 --> 00:29:28,266
if the one piece of media
focuses on one side or the other.

585
00:29:28,266 --> 00:29:31,102
What we want is across your media diet

586
00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:33,938
and also across
the educational media diet,

587
00:29:33,938 --> 00:29:39,144
what we're kind of focusing on now and then
also that joyful entertainment media as well.

588
00:29:39,144 --> 00:29:41,479
We want all the the flavors.

589
00:29:41,479 --> 00:29:42,247
The balance. Yeah.

590
00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:43,214
All the flavors.

591
00:29:43,214 --> 00:29:46,518
Too narrow focus on
any one thing is going to leave out

592
00:29:46,518 --> 00:29:47,619
other important stuff.

593
00:29:47,619 --> 00:29:51,523
Only bitter, only sweet,
misses so many parts of --

594
00:29:51,523 --> 00:29:53,625
We also need salty and sour.

595
00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:56,427
All of the things in the middle.
Yes, absolutely.

596
00:29:56,427 --> 00:29:57,896
Well thank you, Will.

597
00:29:57,896 --> 00:30:01,299
As we go into this story time
and as we know,

598
00:30:01,299 --> 00:30:05,103
we talk about kind of a negative story
and a positive story and,

599
00:30:05,103 --> 00:30:07,472
and you have
kind of both of our stories today.

600
00:30:07,472 --> 00:30:08,106
Yeah. Yep.

601
00:30:08,106 --> 00:30:10,141
The negative story --

602
00:30:10,141 --> 00:30:14,379
So I have to be careful to protect
the anonymity of the person here.

603
00:30:14,379 --> 00:30:18,783
So every season we
usually have four guests.

604
00:30:18,783 --> 00:30:20,618
This season we were going to have five

605
00:30:20,618 --> 00:30:24,622
because, you know, after after the podcast
got ranked in the top 5% worldwide -

606
00:30:24,622 --> 00:30:25,757
woot woot! -

607
00:30:25,757 --> 00:30:28,793
we actually got
a lot of a lot more interest from people.

608
00:30:28,793 --> 00:30:30,895
And so I was like,
oh, great, extra guests.

609
00:30:30,895 --> 00:30:31,963
That’ll be wonderful.

610
00:30:31,963 --> 00:30:34,666
But one guest that we were going to have,
and this is someone that I talked to

611
00:30:34,666 --> 00:30:35,667
in previous seasons

612
00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:39,337
about maybe being a guest, and
we were finally going to make it happen.

613
00:30:39,838 --> 00:30:43,508
So this is a person who's kind of a higher
up at a large university.

614
00:30:43,508 --> 00:30:50,181
She kind of talked with her
colleagues and administration about it,

615
00:30:50,181 --> 00:30:53,017
just to make sure
that it would all all be okay.

616
00:30:53,017 --> 00:30:56,855
And because of the kind of current
cultural climate around

617
00:30:56,855 --> 00:31:01,659
anything related to diversity
or, or everything, they were scared of

618
00:31:01,659 --> 00:31:02,760
losing federal funding

619
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,831
just if she came on the podcast
to talk about her area of expertise,

620
00:31:06,831 --> 00:31:10,435
which is very relevant
to diversity things.

621
00:31:10,435 --> 00:31:11,870
And she essentially got censored.

622
00:31:11,870 --> 00:31:12,403
- [ Amber ] Yeah.

623
00:31:12,403 --> 00:31:15,106
They told her she really could not do it.

624
00:31:15,106 --> 00:31:17,775
For fear of loss of funding,
association, things like that.

625
00:31:17,775 --> 00:31:20,445
Fear of backlash.
All of that.

626
00:31:20,445 --> 00:31:24,582
Which on the one hand, maybe, you know,
that shows how powerful they think our podcast is.

627
00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:25,550
(Laughing)
Right!

628
00:31:25,550 --> 00:31:28,353
I doubt it really would
have done that much.

629
00:31:28,353 --> 00:31:32,190
But also she specifically said
like she was angry and felt silenced

630
00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:35,827
by the administration.

631
00:31:35,827 --> 00:31:38,730
And her work wasn't able
to be on the podcast.

632
00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:39,364
Yeah.

633
00:31:39,364 --> 00:31:44,035
And that's - I mean,
sad for us and for her.

634
00:31:44,035 --> 00:31:46,871
And it's just another --
it’s just --

635
00:31:46,871 --> 00:31:49,274
it's an example of,

636
00:31:49,274 --> 00:31:53,311
you know, where we are and kind of the,
the backlash to conversations

637
00:31:53,311 --> 00:31:54,879
around diversity,
which

638
00:31:54,879 --> 00:31:55,947
there's always been,

639
00:31:55,947 --> 00:31:59,751
and we've talked several times,
I think, this season about how things are

640
00:31:59,751 --> 00:32:04,422
just more at the surface, where I think
that there's always been a reaction before,

641
00:32:04,422 --> 00:32:08,326
it just - things are just really
much more volatile

642
00:32:08,326 --> 00:32:11,562
and sensitive around these topics.

643
00:32:11,562 --> 00:32:16,334
Getting funding around anything diversity
related is really hard right now.

644
00:32:16,334 --> 00:32:17,335
And so --

645
00:32:17,335 --> 00:32:19,871
Or just completely impossible.

646
00:32:19,871 --> 00:32:22,540
Or impossible. Right, right.

647
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:27,245
The idea, and we're seeing more
and more companies reduce

648
00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:32,817
and take out diversity,
DEI, accessibility.

649
00:32:32,817 --> 00:32:35,687
And so again, it's just another example.

650
00:32:35,687 --> 00:32:36,754
And seeing somebody

651
00:32:36,754 --> 00:32:42,193
kind of being silenced and,
and censored for their participation in,

652
00:32:42,193 --> 00:32:45,730
wanting to promote anything
that's related to diversity.

653
00:32:45,730 --> 00:32:47,231
So maybe in some future year

654
00:32:47,231 --> 00:32:48,900
we will be able to get that guest

655
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:51,469
if climate changes
or what have you.

656
00:32:51,469 --> 00:32:53,972
But but yeah,
so that's the more negative story.

657
00:32:53,972 --> 00:32:56,541
More positive story.

658
00:32:56,541 --> 00:32:59,544
There's another podcast that I listen to,

659
00:32:59,544 --> 00:33:01,646
it's called “Stop Podcasting Yourself”,

660
00:33:01,646 --> 00:33:04,215
it's one of the most popular
podcasts out there.

661
00:33:04,215 --> 00:33:06,150
- [ Amber ] That’s a fun title.

662
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:09,287
It has two co-hosts like our podcast.

663
00:33:09,287 --> 00:33:10,555
They’re two straight White guys,

664
00:33:10,555 --> 00:33:13,024
and they're comedians,
and every episode -

665
00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:16,127
so they have a format where
every single episode they have a guest.

666
00:33:16,127 --> 00:33:19,864
I started listening to them
kind of towards the end of the pandemic,

667
00:33:19,864 --> 00:33:20,932
when a lot of us kind of

668
00:33:20,932 --> 00:33:23,868
were consuming a lot of extra media
because we needed stuff to fill our time.

669
00:33:23,868 --> 00:33:25,603
And so I was going through
their back catalog.

670
00:33:25,603 --> 00:33:26,871
They have hundreds of episodes.

671
00:33:26,871 --> 00:33:30,641
And, you know, in one day
I'd listen to four, five, or six episodes.

672
00:33:30,641 --> 00:33:34,545
And I was really kind
of noticing the diversity in their guests.

673
00:33:34,545 --> 00:33:35,847
And so they've never,

674
00:33:35,847 --> 00:33:38,850
that I'm aware of, talked
about how they pick guests, exactly.

675
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:42,754
But we know that kind of comedy, stand up
comedy is a very kind of straight

676
00:33:42,754 --> 00:33:44,022
White man's game.

677
00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:46,524
Women in comedy talk
about this all the time.

678
00:33:46,524 --> 00:33:47,392
Many women say,

679
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:51,262
you know, there will be a comedy club
that's doing a lineup of ten comics,

680
00:33:51,262 --> 00:33:54,399
and once they have one woman,
they're like, check.

681
00:33:55,066 --> 00:33:56,968
And then they don't --

682
00:33:56,968 --> 00:33:58,770
Some of the women
comics will say things like,

683
00:33:58,770 --> 00:34:01,472
“Yeah, they said, we already have a woman,”
so she couldn’t be on the show.

684
00:34:01,472 --> 00:34:02,607
- [ Amber ] “We’re good.”

685
00:34:02,607 --> 00:34:06,878
And similar with race, sexual orientation,
disability.

686
00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:09,480
But on “Stop Podcasting Yourself”,

687
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,284
you can't go three episodes
without one of the guests

688
00:34:13,284 --> 00:34:16,621
being a woman.
Very often folks with disabilities,

689
00:34:16,621 --> 00:34:18,623
who you can't
necessarily hear on the podcast,

690
00:34:18,623 --> 00:34:21,526
but then they'll talk about
some of their experiences.

691
00:34:21,526 --> 00:34:24,996
LGBT folks, people of color
from all different kinds of races.

692
00:34:24,996 --> 00:34:28,900
And to me, again, I don't know how
they pick their guests exactly,

693
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,668
but there's no way that
that's not

694
00:34:30,668 --> 00:34:31,869
some kind of intention,

695
00:34:31,869 --> 00:34:34,439
some kind of effort
they're putting in behind the scenes

696
00:34:34,439 --> 00:34:38,342
to make sure that they're
having some diversity on their podcast.

697
00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:43,714
Right. Given the prevalence
of a certain demographic in comedy …

698
00:34:43,714 --> 00:34:44,148
- Yeah.

699
00:34:44,148 --> 00:34:48,252
… to have most of their guests,
or so many of their guests,

700
00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:53,558
represent different groups, there has to --
whether they explicitly say it or not,

701
00:34:53,558 --> 00:34:57,261
there has to be some intention behind it.
Which is really cool.

702
00:34:57,261 --> 00:35:01,966
And, you know, we've talked before
at some point, probably around like

703
00:35:01,966 --> 00:35:04,936
Wakanda and and Black Panther and stuff,

704
00:35:04,936 --> 00:35:08,239
I talked about like it's beautiful
to see something

705
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,376
have so much diversity
without the diversity being the thing.

706
00:35:12,376 --> 00:35:14,879
And that's kind of what it is. Right?

707
00:35:14,879 --> 00:35:17,014
Like they're
being really intentional about it

708
00:35:17,014 --> 00:35:21,919
but not making it about,
“Hey, look at how great we are.”

709
00:35:21,919 --> 00:35:22,787
- [ Will ] Absolutely.

710
00:35:22,787 --> 00:35:26,257
“Because we're being really inclusive
and we're really trying

711
00:35:26,257 --> 00:35:29,894
to broaden who we're bringing in.”

712
00:35:29,894 --> 00:35:31,629
Yeah. And it's a comedy podcast.

713
00:35:31,629 --> 00:35:33,698
I mean, they their goal is to be funny.

714
00:35:33,698 --> 00:35:36,534
They tell funny stories.
Have funny people on.

715
00:35:36,534 --> 00:35:39,303
And you know, it proves
yeah, anyone can be funny.

716
00:35:39,303 --> 00:35:39,804
Of course.

717
00:35:39,804 --> 00:35:41,072
So so so I really like that.

718
00:35:41,072 --> 00:35:45,309
And I you know, we often talk
when we talk about broaden your input,

719
00:35:45,309 --> 00:35:48,012
which also today's skill
is part of the broadening your input.

720
00:35:48,012 --> 00:35:50,181
But when we talk about broadening
your input through the media,

721
00:35:50,181 --> 00:35:54,085
I would also recommend them,
a little extra joyful recommendation

722
00:35:54,085 --> 00:35:59,157
this episode as kind of two
White straight guys who I think do

723
00:35:59,157 --> 00:36:03,294
inclusion very well, and that's a good way
to help work against biases

724
00:36:03,294 --> 00:36:07,999
we might have towards straight White guys
or more powerful group members.

725
00:36:07,999 --> 00:36:11,035
They're really good
examples of guys who I think do it well.

726
00:36:11,035 --> 00:36:11,602
- [ Amber ] I love that.

727
00:36:11,602 --> 00:36:13,137
So, that's my positive story.

728
00:36:13,137 --> 00:36:15,640
- [ Amber ] Yeah, yeah,
that's great I love it.

729
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,343
So one of the things that you mentioned

730
00:36:19,343 --> 00:36:23,915
and we kind of alluded to around like,
“Oh we have, we have a woman.”

731
00:36:23,915 --> 00:36:24,348
Right?

732
00:36:24,348 --> 00:36:26,050
[ Both ] “Check.”

733
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:28,419
“So you can't come.”
Right?

734
00:36:28,419 --> 00:36:29,921
“We already have that person.”

735
00:36:29,921 --> 00:36:33,958
And a few times, whether it's in
this episode, in past episodes,

736
00:36:33,958 --> 00:36:35,793
talked about like kind of the checklist.

737
00:36:35,793 --> 00:36:41,499
So tell me what's so bad about or why
do you hate checklist approaches so much?

738
00:36:41,499 --> 00:36:43,100
(Amber laughing)
- [ Will ] That’s our question for today.

739
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:44,202
That’s our question.

740
00:36:44,202 --> 00:36:45,870
Why hate checklist approaches?

741
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:46,704
So very often,

742
00:36:46,704 --> 00:36:50,608
we talk often
about kind of bad approaches.

743
00:36:50,608 --> 00:36:54,312
Sometimes that -- well, very often,
that looks like a checklist.

744
00:36:54,478 --> 00:37:00,318
So you know, mostly when I do my speaking
engagements and give the training,

745
00:37:00,318 --> 00:37:02,420
because someone's read
about our research

746
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:06,757
and they've come to come to our website
and found us, but every once in a while

747
00:37:06,757 --> 00:37:09,694
there are kind of calls
for people to apply for things.

748
00:37:09,694 --> 00:37:12,363
And very often
those things have a checklist like,

749
00:37:12,363 --> 00:37:15,533
“Oh, you're going to talk about this term,
you're going to talk about that term.”

750
00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:18,402
Sometimes it might even be, “You're going
to talk about the history of slavery,”

751
00:37:18,402 --> 00:37:22,540
or something, which in other contexts,
like we were talking about earlier today,

752
00:37:22,540 --> 00:37:26,244
sometimes actually has more
of a de-motivational effect.

753
00:37:26,244 --> 00:37:27,178
Mmhmm.

754
00:37:27,178 --> 00:37:29,580
The research shows that those

755
00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:33,618
checklist approaches tend to not work
very well, because

756
00:37:33,618 --> 00:37:36,554
they tend to have the effect of
people thinking they finished.

757
00:37:36,554 --> 00:37:38,789
They aren't this kind of
ongoing work.

758
00:37:38,789 --> 00:37:41,425
They've done, the thing
they've checked the box.

759
00:37:41,425 --> 00:37:45,696
They're not doing the kind of ongoing
motivation that we want to keep up.

760
00:37:45,696 --> 00:37:47,798
It's always going to be ongoing work.

761
00:37:47,798 --> 00:37:51,202
The work can get easier
as you're more and more practiced at it.

762
00:37:51,202 --> 00:37:53,638
But we want people to maintain motivation.

763
00:37:53,638 --> 00:37:57,775
And so to a certain extent,
you can use checklist approaches.

764
00:37:57,775 --> 00:38:01,679
I think the right way to use them
is to see where you maybe have gone wrong.

765
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,282
So if you look back at the speakers
you've had,

766
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:05,916
the guests
you've had on your podcast, like

767
00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:07,718
in the “Stop Podcasting Yourself” example.

768
00:38:07,718 --> 00:38:09,754
And say, “Oh wow,
we've never had an Asian woman.

769
00:38:09,754 --> 00:38:13,224
Maybe that's something we want
to work on.”

770
00:38:13,224 --> 00:38:15,626
That can be okay.
If you're using it to kind of see

771
00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:17,795
where you're missing something
and then try to improve it.

772
00:38:17,795 --> 00:38:21,532
The problem is, when you take it from
that being a “To Do” checklist into what

773
00:38:21,532 --> 00:38:24,735
Amber sometimes calls a “Ta Da” checklist,
the thing you've accomplished.

774
00:38:24,735 --> 00:38:28,472
Don't use the checklist to say,
“Oh, we've done that now and we're done.”

775
00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:29,507
Yeah.

776
00:38:29,507 --> 00:38:32,777
It's it's an opportunity
for self-reflection. Right?

777
00:38:32,777 --> 00:38:34,378
Of saying like,

778
00:38:34,378 --> 00:38:36,747
“Hey, we haven't
we haven't done this yet.”

779
00:38:36,747 --> 00:38:39,750
Or, “Here's an opportunity
for us to broaden.”

780
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:45,489
“Here's an opportunity
for us to expand our inclusion,

781
00:38:45,489 --> 00:38:48,926
expand what we're doing.”
Rather than saying like,

782
00:38:48,926 --> 00:38:54,365
“Hey, I had this person around
or I went to this place once.”

783
00:38:54,365 --> 00:38:56,434
“I had a conversation with
a Black person. Once.”

784
00:38:56,434 --> 00:38:57,668
Right? “Check.”

785
00:38:57,668 --> 00:38:59,136
“I've done the thing.”

786
00:38:59,136 --> 00:39:01,138
“I've had my one Black friend.
I’m good.”

787
00:39:01,138 --> 00:39:03,574
“I have my one Black friend now I'm good.”

788
00:39:03,574 --> 00:39:08,579
Or earlier, when we were talking
about like, “I felt really bad.

789
00:39:08,579 --> 00:39:11,882
So I have done the work.”
Right?

790
00:39:11,882 --> 00:39:18,823
So yeah, we can't have it as a checklist
of “Ta Das” but a checklist of “To Dos.”

791
00:39:18,823 --> 00:39:25,763
How can I continue to expand
what I'm doing and where I am

792
00:39:25,763 --> 00:39:31,435
and who I'm I'm engaging with
or what I'm including in and disincluding?

793
00:39:31,435 --> 00:39:32,536
- [ Will ] Yeah, absolutely.

794
00:39:32,536 --> 00:39:33,604
Yeah, yeah.

795
00:39:33,604 --> 00:39:37,141
Which I think is really related
to our skill for today.

796
00:39:37,141 --> 00:39:37,908
- [ Will ] It is!

797
00:39:37,908 --> 00:39:43,414
So talk a little bit more about our
the third prong of our skill today.

798
00:39:43,414 --> 00:39:45,383
All right. So

799
00:39:45,383 --> 00:39:47,518
our skill today is more of that
broadening your input

800
00:39:47,518 --> 00:39:51,222
which we talk about a little bit
every episode with our recommendations.

801
00:39:51,222 --> 00:39:53,858
So broadening your input:
the three prongs -

802
00:39:53,858 --> 00:39:57,728
the first is making genuine connections,
which was last month's skill

803
00:39:57,728 --> 00:40:00,197
with Cynthia Mooseknuckle
as the guest.

804
00:40:00,197 --> 00:40:05,403
So actually connecting with other people,
making friendships, and so on.

805
00:40:05,403 --> 00:40:07,638
Second way to broaden
your input is the media,

806
00:40:07,638 --> 00:40:10,341
which we talked about already today,
and we talk about every episode

807
00:40:10,341 --> 00:40:13,778
with our joyful recommendations.
Consuming media.

808
00:40:13,778 --> 00:40:16,781
And then the third way is
by increasing representation

809
00:40:16,781 --> 00:40:20,885
in your social, physical,
and digital environments.

810
00:40:20,885 --> 00:40:23,721
I'm going to take each in turn
just to kind of give you

811
00:40:23,721 --> 00:40:26,424
the brief talk about it,
and then we can expand a little.

812
00:40:26,424 --> 00:40:29,660
So physical environments
this is things like art.

813
00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:32,663
Pictures of people in your
lobby of your building,

814
00:40:32,663 --> 00:40:35,099
things like that that are in your
physical environment.

815
00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:40,237
Digital environment: This can be pictures
on your website or social media platforms,

816
00:40:40,237 --> 00:40:42,440
or your screensavers.

817
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,475
The last time I talked about this,
I talked about my colleague

818
00:40:44,475 --> 00:40:46,811
who has a screen saver of
women of color scientists,

819
00:40:46,811 --> 00:40:49,980
that all of these things can be input

820
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:53,150
that comes back into your brain,
pushes back against the biases.

821
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:54,385
And then social environments.

822
00:40:54,385 --> 00:40:55,986
This can be things like speakers
you invite.

823
00:40:55,986 --> 00:40:58,756
So we've already kind of been talking
about, like “Stop Podcasting Yourself” does,

824
00:40:58,756 --> 00:40:59,790
they do a great job,

825
00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:04,195
I think, of increasing representation
in the guests they have come in.

826
00:41:04,195 --> 00:41:07,998
But this could also be, you know,
people who come to your book club and speak

827
00:41:07,998 --> 00:41:10,734
or whatever that looks like for you.

828
00:41:10,734 --> 00:41:12,036
It can also be --

829
00:41:12,036 --> 00:41:16,907
I talked about this last time
we covered this topic syllabuses, syllabi

830
00:41:16,907 --> 00:41:20,578
like what readings -- that could be
an aspect of a social environment.

831
00:41:20,578 --> 00:41:21,479
What authors are there.

832
00:41:21,479 --> 00:41:22,179
Yeah.

833
00:41:22,179 --> 00:41:24,615
It reminds me of a couple things:

834
00:41:24,615 --> 00:41:27,751
When I was teaching,
one of the things that I would do is --

835
00:41:27,751 --> 00:41:30,688
we talked about decolonizing
a few seasons ago --

836
00:41:30,688 --> 00:41:34,859
but we have lots of
theoretical orientations, right?

837
00:41:34,859 --> 00:41:39,497
Like cognitive behavioral therapy,
let's say, right? Or CBT.

838
00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:43,901
One of the broadening kind of the input on
that is saying like,

839
00:41:43,901 --> 00:41:47,338
“can we look at CBT not just from
one singular perspective,

840
00:41:47,338 --> 00:41:50,774
but like, let's see how folks in Asia
are talking about this.”

841
00:41:50,774 --> 00:41:53,544
“Let's look at this
from an international perspective.”

842
00:41:53,544 --> 00:41:59,083
We can broaden our view of even,
even a theoretical orientation.

843
00:41:59,083 --> 00:42:02,152
So we have a much more,
again contextualized,

844
00:42:02,152 --> 00:42:04,989
more rich view of how this is.

845
00:42:04,989 --> 00:42:09,994
And I have two other other things
that came up in my brain, too, is

846
00:42:09,994 --> 00:42:11,962
I've been doing a lot of social media.

847
00:42:11,962 --> 00:42:17,067
I’ve been talking a lot about social media lately,
but I've been on social media, a lot.

848
00:42:17,067 --> 00:42:21,005
But I watched this, this clinic,

849
00:42:21,005 --> 00:42:26,343
it was an ob gyn clinic,
and they were really intentional

850
00:42:26,343 --> 00:42:31,715
about going around and changing
the pictures that they had in their lobby.

851
00:42:31,715 --> 00:42:36,253
One, they noticed that
all of the pictures were of White women

852
00:42:36,253 --> 00:42:41,825
who were also very happy
about having a baby, right?

853
00:42:41,825 --> 00:42:45,396
And realizing like,
that's just not everybody's experience

854
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:48,332
that's coming in to an ob gyn, right?

855
00:42:48,332 --> 00:42:53,437
Somebody - one - a pregnant person
isn't necessarily a woman,

856
00:42:54,071 --> 00:42:59,510
and not everybody that's pregnant
or is coming in is happy about it.

857
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:59,977
Right?

858
00:42:59,977 --> 00:43:04,782
Like, and so shifting
and having a diverse range of like

859
00:43:04,782 --> 00:43:10,387
what their pictures are representing
and who they're representing

860
00:43:10,387 --> 00:43:15,359
and the experience that it's representing,
I thought was really, really powerful

861
00:43:15,359 --> 00:43:19,964
and shifting what they were
portraying in their lobby.

862
00:43:19,964 --> 00:43:22,967
The other example
I was thinking about is

863
00:43:22,967 --> 00:43:27,037
my church also does
a really good job of

864
00:43:27,037 --> 00:43:30,941
having multiple
different types of pictures

865
00:43:30,941 --> 00:43:34,011
of Jesus, because we typically have --

866
00:43:34,011 --> 00:43:35,713
- [ Will ] White Jesus?
- [ Amber ] (Laughs) White Jesus!

867
00:43:35,713 --> 00:43:36,146
Right?

868
00:43:36,146 --> 00:43:37,247
And so,

869
00:43:37,247 --> 00:43:42,052
there's all of these different
cultural representations

870
00:43:42,052 --> 00:43:46,123
of what Jesus looks like,
and different skin tones and

871
00:43:46,123 --> 00:43:51,061
different parts
of character and stories.

872
00:43:51,061 --> 00:43:52,696
And so it's been really cool to see like,

873
00:43:52,696 --> 00:43:55,666
Oh, it's not just White Jesus,
it's not just white Jesus.”

874
00:43:55,666 --> 00:43:56,033
Right?

875
00:43:56,033 --> 00:44:01,405
And seeing all these different inputs
and visual representations, too.

876
00:44:01,405 --> 00:44:04,241
It looks like our producer,
Eric Roman Beining, has a question.

877
00:44:04,241 --> 00:44:07,645
- [ Producer Eric Roman ] Would you mind
elaborating on the sort of demographics

878
00:44:07,645 --> 00:44:11,015
of your church, like,
do you go to a quote unquote Black church?

879
00:44:11,015 --> 00:44:13,350
I do not go to a Black church.

880
00:44:13,350 --> 00:44:15,319
I go to a church --

881
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,221
it's still probably predominantly White,

882
00:44:17,221 --> 00:44:24,728
but my pastor is a Korean woman
who really works hard to -

883
00:44:24,728 --> 00:44:30,601
talks a lot about immigration and diversity
and justice and inclusion.

884
00:44:30,601 --> 00:44:31,435
- [ Producer Eric Roman ] That’s super cool.

885
00:44:31,435 --> 00:44:33,270
It's very cool.

886
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:37,508
And really, honestly, is one of the places
that has got me back

887
00:44:37,508 --> 00:44:41,512
into attending church
more regularly,

888
00:44:41,512 --> 00:44:47,084
because it's a place where I actually see
a pastor and a congregation

889
00:44:47,084 --> 00:44:50,087
that is walking out what justice means

890
00:44:50,087 --> 00:44:57,461
and what I believe Jesus stands for,
which is fighting -- inclusive of all people

891
00:44:57,461 --> 00:45:02,299
and fighting for the poor,
fighting for the immigrant, fighting for --

892
00:45:02,299 --> 00:45:05,703
And so, yeah,
I've been really, really thankful.

893
00:45:05,703 --> 00:45:07,071
And they work really hard.

894
00:45:07,071 --> 00:45:08,272
She works really, really hard

895
00:45:08,272 --> 00:45:12,076
to create inclusive spaces
for everybody at that church.

896
00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:14,978
And it's a place that like, again,
I feel comfortable

897
00:45:14,978 --> 00:45:18,916
bringing just about anybody there,
which has not always been the case.

898
00:45:18,916 --> 00:45:21,385
So anyway, they do a really good job of

899
00:45:21,385 --> 00:45:24,521
broadening the even the kinds of pictures
and depictions.

900
00:45:24,521 --> 00:45:27,725
I mean, that's exactly the skill,
what we're recommending.

901
00:45:27,725 --> 00:45:30,194
Putting up -- So that would be
physical environment, it sounds like.

902
00:45:30,194 --> 00:45:32,362
Yes, the physical environment.

903
00:45:32,362 --> 00:45:33,630
These depictions of Jesus.

904
00:45:33,630 --> 00:45:34,765
And who they bring in. Right?

905
00:45:34,765 --> 00:45:37,234
She really is intentional about,

906
00:45:37,234 --> 00:45:40,003
“We bring in Native speakers.

907
00:45:40,003 --> 00:45:44,041
We have people from all over the world
and different, different ethnic backgrounds,

908
00:45:44,041 --> 00:45:47,911
and different communities
come in and speak to the congregation.”

909
00:45:47,911 --> 00:45:50,013
So increasing representation
both through physical,

910
00:45:50,013 --> 00:45:52,549
and then the speakers would be social.

911
00:45:52,549 --> 00:45:57,554
And just one last thing
on this version of broadening your input.

912
00:45:57,554 --> 00:46:02,059
If these are public facing images,
like in the case of Amber’s Church,

913
00:46:02,059 --> 00:46:05,496
you know, I usually talk about
broadening your input with a kind of self focus

914
00:46:05,496 --> 00:46:08,632
of like, “What are you putting in
your brain that helps push against biases?”

915
00:46:08,632 --> 00:46:11,769
But also people like seeing
themselves represented!

916
00:46:11,769 --> 00:46:12,703
Right.

917
00:46:12,703 --> 00:46:15,973
And that’s a sign to inclusion,
a sign to belonging.

918
00:46:15,973 --> 00:46:20,944
And so when I see, you know, someone with,
you know, using same sex couples

919
00:46:20,944 --> 00:46:23,947
in their advertising, I'm like,
“Oh, they care about people like me.”

920
00:46:23,947 --> 00:46:27,317
And so same with the different
racial depictions of Jesus.

921
00:46:27,317 --> 00:46:30,320
You know, it helps people say,
“Hey, I belong here,

922
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,392
the people who put up these pictures
even care about the perspectives of folks like me.”

923
00:46:35,392 --> 00:46:38,962
So in addition to being something that can
work against your bias in your mind --

924
00:46:38,962 --> 00:46:41,365
It also helps create inclusion, too.

925
00:46:41,365 --> 00:46:46,069
And belonging for members of those groups
who often don't see themselves represented

926
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:47,070
or not as often.

927
00:46:47,070 --> 00:46:48,939
- [ Producer Eric Roman ]
Could I add a weird thing?

928
00:46:48,939 --> 00:46:50,240
Yes, please.

929
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:58,015
- [ Producer Eric Roman ] So sometimes
there's commercials for like STD medications and stuff,

930
00:46:58,015 --> 00:47:02,920
and it'll be like the HIV medication
and then it'll be like,

931
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,655
there are gay people in this ad,

932
00:47:04,655 --> 00:47:08,392
but there are also what appear to be
hetero-normative people in this ad,

933
00:47:08,392 --> 00:47:11,695
and I appreciate that
because HIV doesn't just affect gay people!

934
00:47:11,695 --> 00:47:16,233
It doesn’t just affect gay people! Yeah,
that's a really good example. I love that.

935
00:47:16,233 --> 00:47:16,500
Yeah.

936
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:17,534
In terms of --

937
00:47:17,534 --> 00:47:21,338
I had a note to bring something else up,
but then I was like, “Oh, we moved past it.”

938
00:47:21,338 --> 00:47:26,143
But since you brought that up,
an audience member sent me an example.

939
00:47:26,143 --> 00:47:29,346
So these were pictures on diapers

940
00:47:29,346 --> 00:47:32,716
and one was a White family
with a White baby.

941
00:47:32,716 --> 00:47:37,221
So father and mother
holding their baby for the “White diapers,”

942
00:47:37,221 --> 00:47:39,723
I guess maybe their skin tone based.

943
00:47:39,723 --> 00:47:44,895
And then there was the picture of the
Black baby and his mother for the diapers.

944
00:47:44,895 --> 00:47:45,896
No father.

945
00:47:45,896 --> 00:47:48,198
(Amber making disappointed sounds)

946
00:47:48,198 --> 00:47:49,433
And they were --

947
00:47:49,433 --> 00:47:52,436
like, they sent me this picture
and it was like right next to each other.

948
00:47:52,436 --> 00:47:54,104
- [ Amber ] (Disappointed) Yeah.
- [ Will ] So, so,

949
00:47:54,104 --> 00:47:56,907
and at first it took me a second,
like, “Wait, what's going on here?”

950
00:47:56,907 --> 00:48:00,644
It's like, “Oh, so the stereotype
of the absent Black father.”

951
00:48:00,644 --> 00:48:04,748
And, you know, honestly, I'm guessing it
probably wasn't intentional.

952
00:48:04,748 --> 00:48:06,516
It was probably they were having trouble

953
00:48:06,516 --> 00:48:09,519
finding a Black actor,
Black male actor on the day.

954
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:11,121
Or aybe they were intentionally trying

955
00:48:11,121 --> 00:48:15,993
to portray a single mother
and just were not necessarily

956
00:48:15,993 --> 00:48:20,397
thinking about the other message
that they were conveying, right?

957
00:48:20,397 --> 00:48:21,031
Yeah.

958
00:48:21,031 --> 00:48:25,135
So if you do something different based on race,
maybe be careful about that.

959
00:48:25,135 --> 00:48:28,505
Like maybe if it was they couldn't
find a Black male actor,

960
00:48:28,505 --> 00:48:29,973
maybe don't have the
White male act or.

961
00:48:29,973 --> 00:48:31,642
Which is a different thing,
then it's, you know --

962
00:48:31,642 --> 00:48:33,744
Or have a White male actor
be the father.

963
00:48:33,744 --> 00:48:34,678
Or that.
Yeah.

964
00:48:34,678 --> 00:48:37,614
There are lots of other ways
to do it.

965
00:48:37,614 --> 00:48:40,817
And it's also, some --

966
00:48:40,817 --> 00:48:42,719
Have a second mother. Right?

967
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,521
It drives home the message
that we talk about a lot,

968
00:48:44,521 --> 00:48:46,790
There's no one right,

969
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:48,659
wrong way to do things.

970
00:48:48,659 --> 00:48:50,761
You know
we got to think through them.

971
00:48:50,761 --> 00:48:51,194
But yeah.

972
00:48:51,194 --> 00:48:51,762
Absolutely.

973
00:48:51,762 --> 00:48:53,030
So we'll go on our second break

974
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:57,034
and then we'll be back with
Amber’s joyful recommendation.

975
00:48:57,034 --> 00:49:01,538
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]

976
00:49:01,538 --> 00:49:03,073
Welcome back everyone.

977
00:49:03,073 --> 00:49:06,176
So, Amber, what's
your joyful recommendation this episode?

978
00:49:06,176 --> 00:49:06,810
Yeah.

979
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:09,513
So last summer,

980
00:49:09,513 --> 00:49:13,050
this Netflix movie came out and

981
00:49:13,050 --> 00:49:17,621
I was a little hesitant to to watch it.

982
00:49:17,621 --> 00:49:19,790
Not really hesitant, but it was just like,

983
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:22,559
“Oh, I don't know if it's really my thing,”
but I kept hearing about it.

984
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:24,895
My kids kept talking about it.

985
00:49:24,895 --> 00:49:26,396
So I was like,
“Okay, I'll watch it.”

986
00:49:26,396 --> 00:49:28,899
And it's called “KPop Demon Hunters”,

987
00:49:28,899 --> 00:49:32,336
And oh my gosh, it is

988
00:49:32,336 --> 00:49:33,103
epic.

989
00:49:33,103 --> 00:49:35,339
It is fierce.

990
00:49:35,339 --> 00:49:36,840
It is this story --

991
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:42,846
It's emotional, it's visually appealing
and just beautiful.

992
00:49:42,846 --> 00:49:47,818
So the animation is really fun
and interesting.

993
00:49:47,818 --> 00:49:52,789
And so it's this it's this story
of this K-pop group

994
00:49:52,789 --> 00:49:57,594
who uses their power of voice essentially

995
00:49:57,594 --> 00:50:03,700
to hunt and kill demons that are trying
to enter into the world.

996
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:05,869
And they're kind of
like the protectors and

997
00:50:05,869 --> 00:50:08,972
nobody knows that
that's what they're doing.

998
00:50:08,972 --> 00:50:10,874
They're just like these K-pop stars

999
00:50:10,874 --> 00:50:12,309
and they're K-pop girl group,

1000
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:16,380
but they're like trying to

1001
00:50:16,380 --> 00:50:17,814
protect the world,

1002
00:50:17,814 --> 00:50:21,184
like create a net
that keeps the demons away.

1003
00:50:22,386 --> 00:50:24,821
But there's so many layers to it.

1004
00:50:24,821 --> 00:50:26,423
Then a boy band pops up.

1005
00:50:26,423 --> 00:50:30,060
The music is amazing,
which was another thing

1006
00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:31,628
as far as broadening your input.

1007
00:50:31,628 --> 00:50:34,631
I went to a K-pop

1008
00:50:35,632 --> 00:50:36,833
Sing-Along night

1009
00:50:36,833 --> 00:50:40,937
or karaoke night,
and I, I really had very little exposure

1010
00:50:40,937 --> 00:50:44,041
to K-pop and I was like,
“Oh my gosh, K-pop is amazing.”

1011
00:50:44,041 --> 00:50:46,343
It's so much fun. There's good music.

1012
00:50:46,343 --> 00:50:52,516
And then I saw this movie,
and the music in that movie is incredible.

1013
00:50:52,516 --> 00:50:55,085
There's --
they are bops.

1014
00:50:55,085 --> 00:50:57,387
They are bops.
You definitely need to watch it.

1015
00:50:57,387 --> 00:50:58,655
The music's great.

1016
00:50:58,655 --> 00:51:01,625
The messages are really great.

1017
00:51:01,625 --> 00:51:04,494
It's just --
it's about identity.

1018
00:51:04,494 --> 00:51:07,798
It's about understanding oneself,
accepting oneself, protecting each other.

1019
00:51:07,798 --> 00:51:08,865
protecting each other.

1020
00:51:08,865 --> 00:51:10,867
It's got lots of different types of

1021
00:51:12,102 --> 00:51:14,237
different types
of representation

1022
00:51:14,237 --> 00:51:15,672
and identity.

1023
00:51:15,672 --> 00:51:19,309
And so it's just it's really a fun movie

1024
00:51:19,309 --> 00:51:21,878
and I was not expecting it.

1025
00:51:21,878 --> 00:51:26,550
And so I don't know what I was expecting
exactly, but it was so much more.

1026
00:51:26,550 --> 00:51:30,320
And so I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big fan
and I definitely think people

1027
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,559
should watch it and enjoy the music
and enjoy the message of, again,

1028
00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:39,296
just like self-acceptance for things

1029
00:51:39,296 --> 00:51:42,933
that you can't control
and things that you can control.

1030
00:51:42,933 --> 00:51:44,534
There's redemptive arcs.

1031
00:51:44,534 --> 00:51:50,407
There's just, there's a lot of really,
really, really cool aspects of the movie.

1032
00:51:50,407 --> 00:51:53,176
So “KPop Demon Hunters” on Netflix.

1033
00:51:53,176 --> 00:51:55,912
I remember when it was super popular
last year.

1034
00:51:55,912 --> 00:51:59,282
Like, I feel like I saw the ads or
or memes about it everywhere,

1035
00:51:59,282 --> 00:52:02,152
but I never actually checked it out,
so I'm going to have to give it a watch.

1036
00:52:02,152 --> 00:52:03,920
All my patients will come in
and I’m like,

1037
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,423
“Oh, what do you like to do for fun?”

1038
00:52:06,423 --> 00:52:09,626
“Well, I listen to K-pop
and I gotta listen to ‘KPop Demon Hunters’

1039
00:52:09,659 --> 00:52:11,027
and this is my favorite song.

1040
00:52:11,027 --> 00:52:11,795
What's your favorite song?”

1041
00:52:11,795 --> 00:52:14,097
I'm like, “Oooh, I haven't seen it yet!”

1042
00:52:14,097 --> 00:52:16,867
So I'm like, okay, I gotta watch it just
because all my kids are talking about it.

1043
00:52:16,867 --> 00:52:18,869
And then I was like,
“Oh my gosh, I love this movie.”

1044
00:52:18,869 --> 00:52:20,437
Yeah, it's so good.

1045
00:52:20,437 --> 00:52:21,872
Awesome.

1046
00:52:22,372 --> 00:52:24,207
All right, well,

1047
00:52:24,207 --> 00:52:25,876
I'm Dr. William Cox.

1048
00:52:25,876 --> 00:52:27,611
And I'm Dr. Amber Nelson.

1049
00:52:27,611 --> 00:52:30,614
My book “Overcoming Bias Habits” is out now.

1050
00:52:30,614 --> 00:52:32,415
Check it out to learn
evidence-based skills

1051
00:52:32,415 --> 00:52:35,485
to help you effectively reduce bias
and stand up for diversity.

1052
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:38,421
“Diverse Joy” is produced
by Eric Roman Beining

1053
00:52:38,421 --> 00:52:40,090
with music by Jay Arner.

1054
00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:44,694
Follow us @DiverseJoy on most
social media platforms for extra content.

1055
00:52:44,694 --> 00:52:48,331
If you enjoy the show, help us reach
more people by leaving five star reviews

1056
00:52:48,331 --> 00:52:50,100
or by recommending it personally:

1057
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:55,005
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for 70% of how people find new podcasts.

1058
00:52:55,005 --> 00:52:58,308
New episodes released the
first Wednesday of every month.

1059
00:52:58,308 --> 00:53:01,478
Watch us on YouTube,
listen in any podcasting app

1060
00:53:01,478 --> 00:53:03,747
or check us out at DiverseJoy.com

1061
00:53:03,747 --> 00:53:07,017
where you can also find
additional diversity education resources,

1062
00:53:07,017 --> 00:53:10,854
buy some incredible merchandise,
or donate to support the show.

1063
00:53:10,854 --> 00:53:14,891
“Diverse Joy” is the official podcast of
Inequity Agents of Change,

1064
00:53:14,891 --> 00:53:18,862
a nonprofit devoted to evidence-based
approaches to reduce bias,

1065
00:53:18,862 --> 00:53:21,097
create inclusion, and promote equity.

1066
00:53:21,097 --> 00:53:21,898
All that good:

1067
00:53:21,898 --> 00:53:24,034
[ Both ] JEDI work!

1068
00:53:24,034 --> 00:53:27,070
Learn more at BiasHabit.com.

1069
00:53:27,070 --> 00:53:28,872
Thank you for joining us.
Now:

1070
00:53:28,872 --> 00:53:31,374
[ Both ] Go find your joy.

1071
00:53:31,374 --> 00:53:33,577
- [ Will ] Bye!
- [ Amber ] Byyyyyeeeee.

1072
00:53:34,511 --> 00:53:37,380
[ Producer Eric Roman ]
Are we doing the question later?

1073
00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:39,816
Oh, I skipped it. I’m sorry.

1074
00:53:39,816 --> 00:53:43,587
I jumped right over it!