Difference Makers Discuss - Best of Season 4

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Hello there, and welcome to a very special episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
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I'm Sinead Donovan and I'm coming to you as Series 4 comes to a conclusion Over the past few months, we have been fortunate enough to sit down with some truly remarkable individuals.
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Entrepreneurs, Olympians, community builders, and finance professionals who are doing things differently.
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Today, here in the edit suite, we have woven together the best moments from our first six episodes.
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Conversations with Kingsley Aikins, Aster Thackery, Manuel Rodrigues, Caitriona Jennings, Nick Reimer, and Liswaniso Namatama.
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You may have heard some of these episodes before, or perhaps you are joining us for the very first time.
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Either way, I promise you there is something here that will stay with you.
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So let's start by meeting Kingsley, the doyen of networking.
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Here he talks about how a 12-person dinner club in Sydney went on to become the largest Irish business network in the world.
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Um, so after that w- episode was all over, I went to London, I did a post-grad, and I joined, Sinead, you're too young to remember, Coras Iarachta, which is the Irish- I do export board.
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I remember
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it.
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You remember it.
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And what you normally do is spend a few years there, and then they post you overseas.
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That's what I really want.
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I want to po- I was very keen to get out of Ireland.
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You know, I, I think, you know the old line, who knows Ireland, who only Ireland knows.
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In other words, if you wanna know your country, you gotta go away and spend time away.
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So I was very keen to go away, and I put my name down for a posting.
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I'll never remember… I'll never forget what happened.
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There were five cities up for grabs.
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It was Moscow, um, Sydney, um, Lagos, Glasgow, and then the glamour posting, Limerick, right?
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So I got Sydney.
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Oh
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my goodness.
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By chance.
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Wow.
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Now, dirty job, somebody's gotta do it.
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Yeah.
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And when your country calls.
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So off I went, and I spent eight years there in Sydney, and it was fantastic.
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But when I arrived there, I didn't know a sinner in Australia.
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I met a lot of sinners when I was there, but I didn't know anybody there.
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And I, my mom gave the name of a neighbor's son who lived in Sydney.
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I rang him and I said,"I don't know anybody.
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Can you introduce me to the, to the local Irish business network?" He said, "There isn't one." So I said, "Look, why don't we set one up?" So we got together, like 12 people one night, and we had a dinner.
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We called ourselves the Lansdowne Road Club- Mm … because we were rugby guys.
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And then in the spirit of sort of sporting ecumenism, we dropped the word road.
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Mm. So it's the Lansdowne Club, and it's there today.
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It is.
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It's the biggest Irish business network- Yeah … in any city in the world.
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Yeah.
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They have their St. Patrick's Day lunch next week.
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I was talking to Theresa Keating, who worked with me and has been running it ever since, and she said that they put out the call for people who wanted to buy tickets, and 1,000 sales were done in, in 20 minutes.
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So, so it was a wonderful kind of… And for me, it was a nice kind of legacy I left.
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Mm. And I met, when I was over there- I was trying to find somebody who'd be a great name to head up the, the Lansdowne Club, and I wrote a letter to a guy called, another name you'd probably remember, Tony O'Reilly.
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Mm-hmm.
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Head of the H.J.
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Heinz food company in the United States.
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And he, a huge, big name, me, a nobody, and I wrote to him, and I couldn't believe it.
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He wrote back and he said,"I'd love to be involved.
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I'm building networks of Irish people in business all around the world." And thirdly, he said, and I couldn't believe this, he said,"Would you be free for lunch?
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'Cause I'm coming to Sydney." Would I be free for lunch?
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I was gonna say, "No, I'm busy, Tony," but- Yeah.
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But I said, "Love to meet you for…" I met him for lunch.
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We talked about rugby for about two hours, and lots of other things, and I ended up working for him for 21 years.
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Kingley's story is a reminder that one letter, one lunch, one conversation can change the entire direction of not just one career, but perhaps the careers of many that come after you.
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Now, what happens when you take that same spirit of community-building and apply it to starting a new life in a new city?
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Astrid Thackray moved to London pregnant, during a pandemic, knowing nobody, and what she created from that starting point might just surprise you.
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Yeah.
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So it's funny, community… 'Cause we spoke about community, uh, when we chatted the other day, right?
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Mm. And, um, I guess when I reflect on what I've been up to over the last few years, community is a huge theme.
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And I would say that I wear three hats, so I've… Well, three hats plus also I'm a mom.
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But so three hats being the work that I'm doing with the Italian government at the moment.
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So I'm, I'm working to attract investment into Italy, and that, that in itself is a bit, is a bit community-based because essentially you're trying to connect the Italian business community in London with the investment community and the, and the business community, right?
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So how do you build those relationships?
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The second community is, of course, the Chartered Accountants Australia New Zealand.
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Uh, we have 4,200 members in the UK.
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So as chair, I'm not… I'm a volunteer, but we luckily have a brilliant paid team that do all the actual work.
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But as chair, I often am thinking, "How do we do more to bring our community together?" So, um, like, what kind of events can we do?
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Things like that.
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And then the third, which is what you are referring to, is I live in Greenwich in London, and when I moved here five years ago, yeah, five years ago during COVID, um, I didn't know anybody, and I was pregnant with my second baby, and I just did what I think many pregnant women or, or, or like mothers do, which is try, try to connect with other pregnant women and mothers.
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So I had this coffee meetup that I started.
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Pretty, pretty normal.
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But the thing is that this coffee meetup just grew.
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It just didn't stop growing.
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So it's just grown and grown and grown and grown and grown.
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And it got to the point where we now have about 2,000 active parents in our local community who are part of this group.
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So we're not affiliated to a, to, you know, to a religion or a school or any kind of, um, any group.
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We are just a community of parents.
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And it got to the point where COVID had lifted, and that's why I thought,"Well, we should, we should do something.
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Maybe I should organize a party or an event." So in 2024, I thought, "I'll organize a village fair," because- It felt to me like where I'd grown up in New Zealand, there were often community events, and in London, yes, there are community events, but they're huge, right?
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So I thought, well, Greenwich is essentially a village.
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I mean, we are, we're in zone two, we're central, but we're essentially a village, so let's, let's put on a village fair and invite all the families and the children.
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So we had this big event, and it was free, and people came, and h- and everything was, like, just for families, little, little children.
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And everybody said, "Oh, that was great. You should do it again." And it's the same, same this year.
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"Oh, it was great. You should do it again." So it's morphed now.
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This, this community has morphed.
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But just to tell you, um, a really, I guess, most recent story is that yesterday, yesterday was International Women's Day.
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Yes.
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And yeah.
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And so I thought, well, actually, yes, we'll do a fair again.
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Sure.
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And we can do other events, too.
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But for the first time, w- I decided to organize, uh, a family morning tea for International Women's Day.
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So a lot of the… We had… We sold out, actually.
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We didn't… And I say sold out as in we only had capacity in the venue for a certain number, and we had too many.
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So we had about 80 parents and children come yesterday morning.
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And I did some call-outs to some of the amazing women that run businesses in our community, and they, they donated, like, spot prizes.
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And we had a children's entertainer come, and she did a bit of, you know, women, girls rule the world.
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And it was just this really fun community event.
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But, but yeah, essentially- I mean, you could, we could talk for hours about how motherhood and, um, parenthood and the family unit and the cost of childcare, I mean, that's a whole wormhole, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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But drilling it right down to what is it that, I guess I felt like what is the very least that I can do in my position?
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And that is just connect people.
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So a lot of the people that come to all of the meetups and events and things that we organize or I organize, they're just s- parents that are a bit similar to us.
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Um, they probably don't have family here in London, and they just want to connect with other parents and, and, and, and bring their child to something that they know it's gonna be fine and yeah.
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So that community is now, um, I actually incorporated it, which sounds really, uh, formal, but the reason I did that is because I wanted it to be its own thing and not linked to, to me and my bank account, right?
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So it's incorporated as a social enterprise, a nonprofit social enterprise.
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And once I did that, I then realized that we've now got the foundation in place which enables us to empower others in the community to do things as well.
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So one of the moms, she's now been running for a year moms in business networking, free networking, free, uh, workshops for women in the community.
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I've got another one who said that she'd like to get some events experience, so I've been supporting her behind the scenes, and she can run events.
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And then I've got another one who she, uh, wanted to run a charity event, but she is just, you know, she can organize it and hire a hall, but, but we're helping, I'm helping her out with all the ticketing and all of that sort of base infrastructure.
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So yeah, it's been a really fascinating project, and people have said…'cause I never set out to create a, a group or a community or whatever, but people have voiced it, "Oh, where are you gonna take it next?
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What are you gonna do next?" And I'm like, "Well, actually, we're community led, so what do you guys want, and what are you guys prepared to help with?" Because something that… sorry, I'm going on, stop me if I'm going on a tangent.
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It's just to me- No, it's brilliant.
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It's great … I think it's so important.
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Like, this has been floating around on socials recently, but people are saying,"Oh, we don't have a village anymore.
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You know, I don't have a village," especially in the, the world of parenting, "Oh, we don't have a village." But then also what's been going around, which I fully, when I s- read this the first time, it's resonated with me so hard, is people say that they want to have a village, but they don't wanna be a villager, right?
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They don't, people don't wanna put in the effort to be a villager, you know?
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'Cause being, being part of a village means that you also need to contribute and, and take part.
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So I am pushing back to people a lot now to say, yeah, like we can do all that stuff.
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Let's, let's do it together and see, and see what comes out.
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Aster's story is a beautiful reminder of what becomes possible when you simply start something, when you make a move to actually do an action.
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And sometimes it is that one action which starts something big, starts a movement that literally changes thousands of lives Manuel Rodrigues has been doing something exactly that in Mozambique.
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He is an inspiring CA that is building a microeconomy from the ground up.
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His actions have fundamentally transformed one of the poorest regions on the continent.
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Inspiring and definitely learnings for us all.
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Um, yeah, so it's a, it's a Portuguese phrase called Escolha do Povo, which means the people's choice, and, um, we started that project, um, in 2014, and over the years it's grown and developed, and I think some of the, some of the listeners have followed the, the, the project's progress.
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Uh, but effectively what the, the project does, it's got a network of small-scale farmers that produce maize and soya in a very rural village called Vila Longue in the Tete Province of Mozambique.
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So we've got about fifty-five thousand s- uh, small-scale maize farmers on the books and about, uh, fourteen thousand soya farmers, and what these guys do is they grow maize and this… They grow soya, and we buy all that, that product back from them, and we process, um, or make products for the formal market, um, with those raw materials.
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And, um, when we did the analysis initially, um, in terms of, of the needs of the market as well as the, um, uh, commercial viability, we decided to then go into poultry.
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So what we then did was we annexed a, a commercial hatchery where we produce stale chicks, um, and we… At the feed factory we produce now a chicken feed using the maize and soya that comes from the small-scale farmers.
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And effectively what we've done is we've started this training program where we teach the small-scale chicken farmer how to buy their chicks and their feed and to grow a, a, a chicken, um, that they then sell in their various communities, um, as a protein source.
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Um, so this was backed by the government.
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We've had a lot of government support, uh, because not only is it, uh, creating opportunities for small-scale farmers, farmers to start their own businesses but also, um, you know, it, it helps with the, um, uh, nutritional intake of your local Mozambican where, you know, sometimes protein sources were a little bit more difficult to come by.
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Um, now, you know, we're starting to get a lot more, uh, protein availability in, in the market.
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Um, so through the years, you know, that's really been our focus, and we started off with one little retail store, uh, a small community of farmers that we were, that we were training, and at this point in time this month, we actually opened up our 11th store.
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So we've got stores now all over the central part of the country, as well as the northwestern side, as well as the northeastern side.
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So I suppose central, central and north.
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And, um, similar type, type of, of process where we bring in these farmers, we run, uh, lectures and training, uh, you know, we upskill these farmers, and then we supply them the inputs for them to start, to start their, their business.
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And that's sort of been what we've been doing over the, the past couple of years now.
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Um, last year we then ventured out into a completely new side of the business.
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I suppose it's, it's a bit of a vertical integration.
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So what we were doing in the past is we would import these fertilized eggs from Zambia and hatch the chicks and then distribute the chicks.
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Uh, now we're investing in our own, um, internal fertilized egg production.
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Um, and we've done that in, uh, conjunction with two of the communities in, in our areas.
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So effectively what we've done is we've built a little, uh, what we call a breeder house for them.
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And over a period of time, we're gonna teach them how to produce these fertilized eggs, which in, in turn, they will sell to us.
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We will then hatch the chick and sell those out to the small-scale farmer.
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So at the end, end of the day, what's actually happened is we've managed to create a little bit of a microeconomy Where the small scale farmers who produce maize and soya into the project, they obviously earn cash.
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We produce chicks and chicken feed, which we sell back to them, and they grow a chicken, and they then sell that chicken and earn cash.
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And so this little micro economy sort of circulates.
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Um, one of the reasons why government was very much behind the, the project, uh, from an entrep-entrepreneurial point of view is because a lot of the farmers in the area were growing maize and soya at the time.
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And, um, you can imagine that you harvest maize and soya, and you do that once a year, so your income potential is annually, um, maybe twice a year if you're lucky and you're one of the, the, the savvy farmers.
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Um, but with poultry, um, the farmer then buys their inputs, and they're able to churn that, that capital every thirty-five days.
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So you've now gone from a month or an annual earnings to, to making a profit on, on this type of business, um, monthly.
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So it's made a lot of, uh, social impact in, in the area.
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And naturally what happens as the volumes for the feed grow, so does the volumes for the maize and the soya grow.
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Um, and so we're able to support more and more people.
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So this little world or this little s- you know, flywheel of microeconomy that we have just continuously keeps, keeps churning and, and keeps growing, so the impact just continuously becomes bigger.
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Um, so yeah, that's, that's in summary what we are and what we've done over the past twelve years.
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Manuel's work is a masterclass in combining commercial discipline with genuine social mission.
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It takes real resilience to hold that line.
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And what a segue that is, because resilience is something that Catriona Jennings has in abundance.
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Indeed, has it to such a degree that she has broken world records in endurance running.
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However, to build resilience, you need to experience challenge and pain.
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Catriona qualified for the 2012 Olympics whilst working full-time at PwC, and here she shares with us what happened on race day.
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It's not a story you'll forget quickly.
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So during the time when I was, um, training to qualify for the Olympics, I was working full-time.
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Um, I think as a chartered accountant, everyone can probably, um, sympathize with, you know, you start your first job, but you're also studying.
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Mm-hmm.
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So you become very good at organizing your time and making sure that you have allocated the right amount of time to whatever you're actually focused on at that moment.
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And to me, running was just another one of those items that I needed to fit in or wanted to fit in, I guess.
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So when I qualified, I continued just to be as, um, you know, I suppose disciplined with my time as I had been, and I was training at a pretty high level, but also I didn't want it to impact my career because that was also equally important to me.
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I ended up being incredibly just organized at the weekend so that I planned ahead for the week and, you know, that would include making all my food for the week- Mm … preparing all my outfits that I was going to wear to work, dropping them into the office.
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You know, I was, I was kind of regimental in what I prepared for at the weekend to make sure that I was allowing myself the time to train, but also to work during the week And, uh, then I qualified for, uh, well, I achieved the qualifying standard in the Rotterdam Marathon in April of 2012, and at that point, I had a chat with the guys in PwC, and- Okay they very kindly let me take some time off work- Mm-hmm … so that I could focus on the Olympics.
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Um, so I trained full time then from probably, I think it was early May until after the Olympics in August.
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Mm. So that was great, but interestingly, I suppose I had done a lot of the work to actually get there when I was q- when I was also working full time, and for me, that just suited me well because I think there was something nice about, you know, knowing exactly.
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I was, as I said, organized, that I knew exactly what I was going to do and when.
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Of course, you know, you get a curveball.
00:19:12.088 --> 00:19:12.098
Mm-hmm.
00:19:12.098 --> 00:19:20.189
You, you, you're working on a project, you have to work late, so you do have to adapt- Mm … your best-made plans, but at least you're kind of following a structure that, for me, just worked really well.
00:19:20.979 --> 00:19:25.969
And PwC were very good in the way that they en- enabled you to juggle, juggle things, you s- you said.
00:19:26.589 --> 00:19:27.839
They were when I qualified, yeah.
00:19:27.909 --> 00:19:28.308
Okay.
00:19:28.318 --> 00:19:28.338
Yeah.
00:19:28.429 --> 00:19:34.449
Okay, so yeah, so, so, so forgetting you had study, you had lectures, you had all that, so gosh, fair, fair play to you.
00:19:34.888 --> 00:19:36.578
Um, sorry, I have to pick up on one comment you said there.
00:19:36.598 --> 00:19:38.598
You dropped the outfits into the offices.
00:19:38.598 --> 00:19:39.919
That's 'cause you ran into the office?
00:19:39.919 --> 00:19:41.338
Yes, I used training.
00:19:41.338 --> 00:19:42.878
Sorry, that was part of my training.
00:19:42.878 --> 00:19:43.133
Oh, brilliant.
00:19:43.133 --> 00:19:44.598
And I would run in and run home.
00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:44.808
Oh, nice.
00:19:44.818 --> 00:19:49.179
Or, you know, you're trying to, I suppose, ma- maximize your, the time in your day.
00:19:49.179 --> 00:19:53.618
So I was, uh … And back in those days, you know, running now is huge.
00:19:53.628 --> 00:19:58.848
It's completely, um, exploded in Ireland, and you often see people running into work with little backpacks on.
00:19:59.249 --> 00:19:59.388
Mm-hmm.
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.209
Back though, in those days, it was very rare.
00:20:02.209 --> 00:20:04.788
You didn't really see people running around with bags on their shoulders.
00:20:04.798 --> 00:20:04.828
Okay.
00:20:04.838 --> 00:20:09.569
So, you know, I was probably a little bit strange to, to some people that would be observing.
00:20:09.569 --> 00:20:17.236
But, um, yeah, like, and, and, and, you know, while I would run in sometimes with a backpack- It does impact your stride- Okay.
00:20:17.246 --> 00:20:20.796
Okay … and I just didn't, I was very conscious of b- being injury-free.
00:20:21.185 --> 00:20:26.336
So for me, it was important to just allow myself the- To run … the time to run as, yeah, as free as I could.
00:20:26.756 --> 00:20:27.135
Okay.
00:20:27.326 --> 00:20:29.266
So let me, I, there's so much that I wanna cover here.
00:20:29.276 --> 00:20:29.296
Yeah.
00:20:29.305 --> 00:20:35.505
So let me get the sport, um, bit out a- a- a- at first, and then we'll, we'll come back to the profession, if that's okay.
00:20:35.506 --> 00:20:35.655
Sure.
00:20:35.655 --> 00:20:39.695
'Cause I'm really interested to hear about your, your um, your profe- the professional life.
00:20:40.655 --> 00:20:42.825
So you, you qualified for the Olympics.
00:20:42.905 --> 00:20:46.005
Um, the Olympic race didn't really go to plan, did it?
00:20:46.214 --> 00:20:54.505
And, and whilst I don't want to dwell on that, I think there was, you kinda got learnings from that and built up a huge amount of resilience, I'm guessing.
00:20:54.675 --> 00:20:55.385
Absolutely.
00:20:55.414 --> 00:20:57.925
I mean, yes, it didn't go to plan.
00:20:57.954 --> 00:21:02.184
I ended up picking up an injury in the weeks leading into the race itself.
00:21:02.214 --> 00:21:16.855
Um, it was plantar fasciitis, which is a ligament injury, and one which, you know, I would've been sure at the time w- I would've been fine running the race with, because it would just warm up as I ran, and I'd just deal with it, the consequences afterwards.
00:21:17.316 --> 00:21:28.724
But as it turned out, I got a stress fracture in my foot as a result of kind of compensating for that original injury, and that came about during the race itself, which was a nightmare, to be fair.
00:21:28.775 --> 00:21:40.595
And, um, it turned into a, a, a really negative experience for me at the time, unfortunately, and took me quite a while to really come to terms with that race-
00:21:40.795 --> 00:21:40.894
Okay
00:21:41.165 --> 00:21:42.255
and that experience.
00:21:42.535 --> 00:21:47.394
But when I did, I started to see the positives, and now I can look back and see the positives.
00:21:48.238 --> 00:21:58.768
But absolutely, as you said, I can really see the, the huge amount of resilience that I showed, and just being able to adapt and pivot when something wasn't going right.
00:21:58.897 --> 00:22:01.738
I knew what my ultimate goal was, and that was to finish the race.
00:22:02.117 --> 00:22:14.988
And even though it wasn't as I had planned or expected, I was still able to deal with what was thrown at me on the day and, you know, ultimately still get, achieve the goal, maybe in a slightly different way.
00:22:15.137 --> 00:22:15.157
Yeah.
00:22:15.157 --> 00:22:26.097
But I do believe that if I had have dropped out of that race, it would've been a lot more difficult for me to come to terms with it, because at least I was able to say,"But I got, I did finish," you know?
00:22:26.097 --> 00:22:34.258
So I think for me, that was, uh, that was powerful and, um, yeah, I can, I can see the benefits of it now, even though, as I said, it took quite a while to get
00:22:34.307 --> 00:22:34.647
there.
00:22:34.667 --> 00:22:35.327
Took, it took quite a while.
00:22:35.366 --> 00:22:37.076
No, and, and I, and I can imagine that.
00:22:37.468 --> 00:22:45.997
And when, when you do look back on that, y- okay, so one of the learnings is that you absolutely kind of grafted it out and finished, 'cause you knew that you kind of had to.
00:22:46.218 --> 00:22:47.487
Was, was there other learnings?
00:22:47.497 --> 00:22:52.917
I mean, was there, was there an element that you maybe shouldn't have started the race, or?
00:22:52.988 --> 00:22:56.827
No, because I did believe when I was at the start line- Okay … that I would be fine, that I'd get through it.
00:22:56.988 --> 00:22:59.538
Okay, so it was just a real unfortunate incident.
00:22:59.547 --> 00:22:59.856
Yeah.
00:22:59.866 --> 00:23:00.137
Oh my goodness.
00:23:00.227 --> 00:23:00.537
Yeah.
00:23:00.537 --> 00:23:07.278
And I mean, I have to say, going, if, if I was to turn back the clock knowing what I know now, would I have run it or not?
00:23:07.528 --> 00:23:11.287
I think I'd still run it, because ultimately I can- Yeah, yeah … I can say I'm an Olympian.
00:23:11.307 --> 00:23:15.748
I think if I- Yeah, yeah, yeah … you know, if y- if I didn't, y- it's a once in a lifetime chance.
00:23:15.946 --> 00:23:20.207
Of course, we all hope to get there again, but you have to take your opportunities when they're in front of you, and-
00:23:20.586 --> 00:23:29.807
Catriona's ability to push through the unthinkable is rooted in mental preparation, in visualization, in training the mind as rigorously as the body.
00:23:30.528 --> 00:23:43.198
All skills which are needed to be a difference maker That same spirit of preparing for the future rather than being swept along by it is at the heart of what Nick Reimer has been building in South Africa.
00:23:44.196 --> 00:23:56.877
His company is using AI to make education more accessible, and his take on how AI should and should not be used in assessments is one of the most nuanced things we have heard on this podcast.
00:23:57.616 --> 00:23:58.007
Yeah.
00:23:58.017 --> 00:24:00.968
So I think, I mean, it's, it's a great question.
00:24:00.968 --> 00:24:02.217
It's such a topical question.
00:24:02.218 --> 00:24:05.707
I get it all the time in, in the different panel discussions that we have.
00:24:05.708 --> 00:24:17.936
And I think for us as a business, if we just think about what AI has unlocked from a tech point of view, I came from a business we set up where we typically have to gather data while the student wrote.
00:24:18.696 --> 00:24:30.008
And post that student completing their exam, upload all of that data to a server to process and generate a report in terms of understanding the behavior of that exam.
00:24:30.737 --> 00:24:37.307
Now, with AI, we've been able to move to AI running locally on students' devices.
00:24:37.336 --> 00:24:42.988
Meaning we actually don't need to upload these big files anymore and process that information on server side.
00:24:42.988 --> 00:24:53.477
We can actually utilize devices to unpack what needs to be uploaded and discard good behavior, because a teacher doesn't need to see you sitting there behaving, doing what you need to do.
00:24:53.686 --> 00:25:00.938
They typically need to see when you do something that you shouldn't be doing, and that's typically what's used then for the disciplinary process or the disciplinary report.
00:25:00.948 --> 00:25:28.126
And I think what we've been able to do with the use of AI is train our models to understand what good behavior looks like, what bad behavior looks like, and move to a point where we can be hugely data efficient, monitor a student for the entire time, even though we can run completely offline and reduce the upload to a 5 or a 10-megabyte file, as opposed to live streaming a student the entire time, uploading that full file and processing that full file.
00:25:28.467 --> 00:25:45.207
So what that means is it allows all students to make use of the tech, doesn't exclude anyone because it's hugely data light, and it also means the price point comes right down for institutions, because processing power and servers are the expensive aspect in terms of monitoring and processing that data.
00:25:45.517 --> 00:25:55.126
So for us, we've been able to make our solution extremely lightweight, but rival what your big full proctoring solutions are doing in terms of live and continuous streaming.
00:25:55.126 --> 00:26:03.176
So for us, it's meant more access to our product for in- institutions that have never been able to move blended or never been able to move online.
00:26:03.448 --> 00:26:28.715
So a huge progression for us in, in moving, ramping up credibility, but keeping that inclusive aspect So I think from, from that point of view, it's been, it's been, uh, you know, hugely beneficial, and we've just jumped on it straight away in terms of training our own models as quickly as we can, continuing to refine them so that we're able to give lecturers, teachers, professors the visibility they need but to do it in a way that doesn't exclude any parts of the population globally from utilizing our tech.
00:26:28.715 --> 00:26:30.825
So hugely beneficial for us.
00:26:31.184 --> 00:26:56.904
In terms of ethical AI usage, I think it's very important that there's a combination between what AI thinks you're doing and a final human being or teacher saying, "I agree with this. It needs to be looked at. There needs to be a disciplinary process." And that's always been part of the Invigilare in that we are 50% a tech company and then 50% an academic company in that we've got a blend of 50% academics, 50% tech experts or software engineers.
00:26:57.234 --> 00:27:05.655
So what this means is that our AI would flag you are talking… this is what we think you have talked about, and we've been able to generate those recordings as a result.
00:27:05.674 --> 00:27:18.694
But there would always be the academic, the human being that would go through that data once it's been flagged, once it shows you exactly what you need to look at, and that would then rely on the academic giving the final decision, and I think that's the right approach.
00:27:18.694 --> 00:27:20.346
We don't want to solely rely on AI.
00:27:20.704 --> 00:27:21.634
AI is good.
00:27:21.645 --> 00:27:29.055
You can certainly train it to do a lot of things, but it's a guidance tool, especially when it comes to something as serious as a disciplinary process.
00:27:29.226 --> 00:27:38.855
So there would always be the teacher, there would always be the professor that would review the data as a second set of eyes and make sure that what we have flagged is correct so that there is no false flagging.
00:27:39.315 --> 00:27:48.277
The third aspect is obviously the use of AI in education And that's also a very t- you know, sort of topical conversation at the moment.
00:27:48.287 --> 00:27:49.487
Should AI be banned?
00:27:49.497 --> 00:27:50.647
Should it not be banned?
00:27:50.967 --> 00:27:54.247
Are there actual accurate tools that can detect AI language?
00:27:54.247 --> 00:27:56.617
So we've got a, I suppose, a blend.
00:27:56.647 --> 00:28:07.298
We've got the opinion that, you know, at certain times in life you have got to study hard and you have got to write a closed book assessment, and in a scenario like that, AI should not be used.
00:28:07.307 --> 00:28:17.707
So we have got all the right tools to mitigate that risk, whether it's monitoring what you're doing on the PC, whether it's locking you down to the LMS only, or whether it's some of our AI detection tools.
00:28:17.727 --> 00:28:22.007
We can absolutely monitor that and give academics the report post the assessment.
00:28:22.007 --> 00:28:25.267
That gives them all the information they need in terms of the student's behavior.
00:28:25.676 --> 00:28:36.876
But there's also then the, the, the case of AI should be used because it's a tool that's gonna be used post-school, post-university, but it needs to be used in an ethical way.
00:28:36.906 --> 00:28:48.347
And what I mean by saying that is it doesn't serve any purpose if an assessment or an assignment is requiring a student to copy and paste directly from AI and receive a mark.
00:28:48.387 --> 00:28:49.497
That is not a skill set.
00:28:49.528 --> 00:28:56.547
What a skill set is in terms of utilizing AI is practically applying AI to a scenario.
00:28:56.547 --> 00:28:58.467
So how… What is that student prompting?
00:28:58.748 --> 00:29:05.917
How much of an answer has a student copying and pasted from an AI tool or from a re- uh, sort of paraphrasing tool?
00:29:06.208 --> 00:29:15.826
Those are the types of things that our tech can also look at so that you can have more open book type styles of assessment where you can say utilize AI, but it's not, you know, any model.
00:29:15.866 --> 00:29:22.627
It can be you're only allowed to use ChatGPT, and our solution is gonna then lock you to one specific large language model.
00:29:22.987 --> 00:29:38.218
And then when you are doing your piece of work, we are gonna check how well are you actually utilizing that AI tool in practically completing the assignment because we don't want students to over rely on AI and not actually test their critical thinking skills and just copy and paste from AI sources.
00:29:38.467 --> 00:29:40.387
Like I said, that's not serving any purpose.
00:29:40.387 --> 00:30:03.498
So we've also got to equip academics with the right tool set to conduct these types of assessments in the right way, and these types of tools are obviously fantastic in being able to have a blend between a closed book assessment when you should study and you should write with no resources and when you should be allowed to practically apply some AI to a scenario but make sure you're doing it in the right way and still develop or developing critical thinking, yeah.
00:30:05.582 --> 00:30:16.211
Nick's clarity about AI as a tool, not a replacement for human judgment, is to be really celebrated, and it shows us the huge opportunity that AI is bringing to our profession.
00:30:17.162 --> 00:30:21.230
The opportunity to showcase and maximize our human skills.
00:30:22.511 --> 00:30:27.211
This is something that Liswaniso Namatama would agree with completely.
00:30:28.131 --> 00:30:36.161
As an auditor in Zambia, Liswaniso has been making the case that audit is, at its core, a deeply human profession.
00:30:36.842 --> 00:30:38.550
Let us hear him explain why.
00:30:39.090 --> 00:30:39.401
Okay.
00:30:39.602 --> 00:30:40.041
Thank you.
00:30:40.451 --> 00:30:43.840
So I'm very passionate when it comes to audits.
00:30:43.881 --> 00:30:46.602
I've been auditing for over six years now.
00:30:47.352 --> 00:31:05.871
So one thing I love about audit is that, um… And, let me first of all start with, um, certain misconceptions that people have about audit, which is, uh, that it's, you know, all about number crunching and ticking boxes or fault finding.
00:31:06.241 --> 00:31:08.590
But I'm here to say it's… that's not the case.
00:31:08.641 --> 00:31:11.021
That's not the picture of audit.
00:31:11.592 --> 00:31:27.632
So audit is, um, bigger than that, and the bigger picture is that, um, audit is about understanding businesses, it's about assessing risks, it's about professional judgment, as well as helping organizations improve how they operate.
00:31:27.942 --> 00:31:37.851
So as an auditor, one of the best things about audit is that, um, it gives you an opportunity to understand how businesses operate.
00:31:38.290 --> 00:31:44.101
And in this case, you tend to work with different, uh, businesses in different industries.
00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:50.451
And because of that, you get an overall understanding of how things operate out there.
00:31:50.902 --> 00:31:55.550
So at one point you can be working with a non-governmental organization.
00:31:55.551 --> 00:32:01.320
The next thing you're working with either a mining or in this case a manufacturing organization.
00:32:01.711 --> 00:32:05.990
So there's, um, that learning that you, you tend to do in audit.
00:32:06.550 --> 00:32:15.740
And, um, part of audit is, um, we tend to interact a lot with management and other key staff in an organization.
00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:26.981
So you get to learn, exchange ideas, and that's also part of networking 'cause, um, those are contacts that are being created, and you can always communicate with these people out, outstay there.
00:32:28.111 --> 00:32:39.790
So it really lays a strong foundation in terms of career 'cause, um, like I've said, um, it's very diverse in terms of industries that, um, one works with.
00:32:40.192 --> 00:32:42.681
Um, I think that's the beauty of audit
00:32:45.102 --> 00:32:46.321
Yeah, and you put it really well there.
00:32:46.321 --> 00:32:49.602
So there's probably two, two key things that you, you pulled out there.
00:32:49.602 --> 00:33:00.041
One was the ability to audit so many different sectors and, and, um, industries, um, with, with the one, with the one common thr- training, and I think that's fascinating.
00:33:00.041 --> 00:33:01.011
I, I love that as well.
00:33:01.011 --> 00:33:08.090
But also it's the meeting of people, and, and I think that's something that, that we really should, should drill, drill down on.
00:33:08.102 --> 00:33:20.040
There still is a huge amount of human-to-human interaction in the auditing profession, and the need to meet with clients and interpret their find, you know, the findings and their, their commentary.
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:29.031
Um, I know it's, I know it's supplemented by AI techniques, but talk to me a little bit about that importance of human-to-human, um, skills.
00:33:29.672 --> 00:33:34.391
That's something that's, uh, very important, the human-to-human skills.
00:33:34.872 --> 00:33:48.631
I know we've got, um, AI that has come in, and, um, with AI, you're able to perform some routine transactions as well as just some analysis of large sets of data and, um, all that.
00:33:48.692 --> 00:33:52.651
And you're able to produce reports more promptly 'cause of the use of AI.
00:33:53.351 --> 00:34:01.622
But then, um, there's certain aspects such as the human-to-human interaction, which is very important, and that's something that's key in audit.
00:34:02.131 --> 00:34:12.590
So apart from the normal analysis that we do as well as the producing of reports, there are aspects such as, um, professional judgment, which is very important.
00:34:12.931 --> 00:34:22.670
And, um, this can only be done by interacting with, uh, with client, with management 'cause it's from such that one is able to assess.
00:34:23.141 --> 00:34:32.931
Then, um, there are also other aspects of risks that can only be assessed by interacting with the client directly as opposed to relying on AI.
00:34:33.541 --> 00:34:50.960
As well as, um, in terms of communicating our findings, as well as, um, so that's something that's also very key and, um, it's better when it's human-to-human interaction that you sit, uh, with management and go through some of these things and just explain to them.
00:34:51.471 --> 00:34:58.940
At times they might have some questions or need to know proper understanding, and we're simply there to communicate this to them
00:35:01.461 --> 00:35:13.481
Liz Waneiso's conviction that sitting with a client, reading the room, and building trust is something no algorithm can replicate brings us beautifully back to where this episode started.
00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:16.731
Yes indeed, a full circle moment.
00:35:18.070 --> 00:35:26.311
At the start of this best of episode, we heard Kingsley Aitkens tell us the story of a letter and a lunch that changed his life.
00:35:27.192 --> 00:35:35.371
Now let us hear what he really believes makes the difference between people who move forward and those who stay still.
00:35:36.322 --> 00:35:40.922
His answer will make you think twice about how you listen.
00:35:40.931 --> 00:35:40.960
When
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:46.561
you think about it, I mentioned at the beginning, like schools and colleges don't teach soft skills.
00:35:46.561 --> 00:35:47.692
They teach hard skills.
00:35:47.911 --> 00:35:48.061
Mm-hmm.
00:35:48.101 --> 00:35:49.501
And, and you have to have these hard skills.
00:35:49.740 --> 00:35:51.181
Hard skills get you on the ladder.
00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:52.952
Soft skills get you up the ladder.
00:35:53.621 --> 00:36:02.010
But if, uh, progress in school or college is a function of a grade, a score, a mark, a metric, and it's got nothing to do with the person sitting beside you.
00:36:03.405 --> 00:36:05.565
And, and then you get into the real world of work.
00:36:06.085 --> 00:36:08.965
And there's a whole series of things that count but can't be counted.
00:36:09.545 --> 00:36:16.596
So resilience and determination and grit and attitude and humor and, as we say here, craic, they all count a lot.
00:36:16.655 --> 00:36:22.494
They all matter a lot, but they can't be counted, so they tend to be discounted, and that's a gap.
00:36:22.514 --> 00:36:23.585
That's a shame, you know?
00:36:24.105 --> 00:36:26.614
So I think that that's sort of first point would be that.
00:36:26.614 --> 00:36:35.625
I think there's a series of things, skills if you like, um, that go to make up this f- this kind of mosaic of, of soft skills.
00:36:35.885 --> 00:36:40.686
I think being a really great listener is one, which again, listening's not taught.
00:36:40.864 --> 00:36:43.644
Most people listen… I say they listen for the gap.
00:36:44.465 --> 00:36:50.306
Most people listen purely to wait to jump in with what they want to say.
00:36:50.905 --> 00:36:52.894
Most people are narcissistic listeners.
00:36:52.905 --> 00:36:58.664
In other words, you know, i- if, if you said to me, "I'm, I'm thinking of buying a car, you know.
00:36:58.695 --> 00:36:59.724
I bought one last weekend.
00:36:59.735 --> 00:37:03.394
The guy wanted 20,000," I'd jump in and say, "I got one the week before for 30,000.
00:37:03.405 --> 00:37:06.905
It's a fantastic car." I mean, we tend to hijack conversations.
00:37:07.135 --> 00:37:07.985
We wanna jump in.
00:37:07.985 --> 00:37:13.166
We wanna give advice, advice, advice, but it doesn't work 'cause it's not their advice, it's your advice, you know?
00:37:13.695 --> 00:37:21.414
So listening as a form of activity, listening not just to what somebody says but what they're gonna say next, being curious.
00:37:21.556 --> 00:37:25.184
I, I act- often think we live in a strangely uncurious world.
00:37:25.434 --> 00:37:27.385
People don't really show much interest, et cetera.
00:37:28.244 --> 00:37:31.655
So being a great listener I think is an incredible skill in networking.
00:37:32.074 --> 00:37:42.835
Um, I think the other one I love is the notion of serendipity, luck, and chance, and the question is can you make luck happen for you or does it happen to you?
00:37:43.226 --> 00:37:45.356
You know, and of course there's bad luck out there.
00:37:45.356 --> 00:37:48.594
We could get cancer or kno- get knocked down in the street, et cetera.
00:37:49.284 --> 00:37:53.784
But I am a believer that you can actually make these things happen for you.
00:37:54.244 --> 00:37:59.585
Or put it this way, luck, serendipity, and chance don't happen lying in bed or sitting at your desk.
00:37:59.905 --> 00:38:09.514
They happen when you're out and about, when you're in motion, when you put your talents on display, when you talk to strangers, when you seek out unlike-minded people and opinions and ideas.
00:38:09.815 --> 00:38:16.235
You know, all of those things, I think they increase the possibility, maybe probability of luck happening.
00:38:16.585 --> 00:38:19.936
And when you look back on your life, luck plays a role in all our lives.
00:38:19.945 --> 00:38:25.896
I mean, Daniel Kahneman, the great writer, says success is about luck and skill.
00:38:26.784 --> 00:38:29.485
And that is a wrap on our highlights episode.
00:38:29.724 --> 00:38:42.594
Six conversations, six perspectives from Sydney to London, from Olympic tracks to the maize fields of Mozambique, from online exam halls in South Africa to audit rooms in Zambia.
00:38:43.335 --> 00:38:59.967
What strikes me when listening back is that the common thread running through all of this is the importance of human connection To succeed, we must have the courage to connect, the willingness to show up, and the humility to keep learning.
00:39:01.068 --> 00:39:09.396
A huge thank you to Kingsley, Aster, Manuel, Caitriona, Nick, and Liz W- Mwenso for sharing their stories so openly.
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If any of these clips have sparked your curiosity, every episode is available in full wherever you get your podcasts from.
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And if you know someone who you think should be on this show, a difference maker in the world of finance and beyond, please do reach out to the team at Chartered Accountants Worldwide.
00:39:28.757 --> 00:39:34.487
Until next time, I'm Sinead Donovan, and this has been Difference Makers Discuss.