speaker-0: Everybody, DevToDev is back. Apologies for the brief intermission. Thank you for your patience. We're back with season two, episode sixteen. Another exciting episode with someone I've never met before, Louis Bayard, who kindly donated some of his time for us to explore his career. It's a really interesting conversation. Someone who grew up in one country, moved to another, was worked on some really cool games. It was a really interesting journey through college into a very storied developer and getting to work on some great stuff. And now moving on to more interesting projects. I think Louis has a a really great insight into ⁓ you know the process of making games, growing up in the industry making games and some of his passions and how they relate to to what he's done and what he'd like to do. This was a great discussion, really enjoyed it. Hope you do too. Usual reminders Dev to Dev is on Patreon for all of season one and the video versions of season two. I also post clips and and a blog to promote the episode. Please like and share those if you can I appreciate everyone that already has and comments on them and continues to follow, continuing to try and grow the podcast as much as possible. I'm gonna keep trying, keep pushing it. So thank you to everyone. Please check out the rest of season two, both previous episodes and the ones to come. I've continued to have exciting guests lined up that I'm really excited to talk about. So keep an eye out for the rest of season two. But in the meantime, let's sit back and listen in to another episode of Dev to Dev with Louis Bayard. Yes, nice to meet you, Louie. Thank you for taking the time to do this. We've never met before, but I'm excited to to get to know you over this the course of this episode. yeah, you've got a great career, ⁓ some some great games to to to talk through and and s ⁓ some good experiences to dive into. But I always like to kick this off with my favourite first question. What first inspired you about video games?
speaker-1: Wow. that's a very vag like very vast question. I don't know how to answer it.
speaker-0: Open to you to interpret it however you want.
speaker-1: I guess ever since I'm a kid I've I've I think I've played video games ⁓ since I think my first console was somewhere like the Super Nintendo and thanks to my dad. ⁓ and ⁓ he had games on his PC with like a joystick ⁓ on Windows ninety five. He had Shadow of the Empire. That was that's the one that comes to mind. And I always wondered how do you make these? Ever since I was a kid, I I wondered How do you make these games? I've been interested in what was behind the scene. And I think I've I've never really actioned it until I was end of high school, wondering where I was going in college, and my ⁓ cousin said to me, Why don't you go into games? And it for some reason, saying it out loud, it became Well yeah, that's that makes sense. And ⁓ yeah, that's when I I I thought I'm gonna go apply to some video game design ⁓ course in in college. I found Rubica and that was one of the schools that I visited and the yeah the I applied to it, I got taken in and yeah, that's that's how I started I think in the field.
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, so so you mentioned your friend so so growing up in France. Yeah. Any brothers or sisters, any other sort of you mentioned your dad was a gamer, but any ⁓ any other gamers in your family?
speaker-1: Yes, yes, yes, yes. ⁓ yeah, so I've got two little brothers, ⁓ Timio and Julian and they're ⁓ yeah, they're they're also gamers. They're also gamers. ⁓ very different types of gamers. I f I think it's really cool 'cause we all are different. I love horror games. I feel like Julien is more into shooters, ⁓ he's got GTA and Call of Duty and And and the last one he he loves FIFA, he loves sports games. So we we're well rounded and it's cool 'cause we can teach each other different games, diff different things. So it's really nice.
speaker-0: Yeah, so kind of a gaming family then. And I love the idea that you so it sounds like right from the start you were kind of fascinated by how games were made, but had maybe no understanding of how to to get into that. But y family members did. Family members like, You sh this is what you should do.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, in a way, yeah. This is what you should do. And yeah, they they push me. I've I've got ⁓ I'm very lucky that my family has been behind me on that. ⁓ straight from the bat. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. So you must have shown that passion then, you know, even without knowing it. You must have, you know, sort of talks about the way game I don't know if did you read magazines, you know, were there other
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ yeah, that was ⁓ yeah, I I used to yeah, I used to talk about games, I used to show them games ⁓ that I was amazed at. For example, I would say my favorite game ever is ⁓ Luigi's Mansion, the first one on GameCube. ⁓ and it's a weird choice, but what what I love about it is how it combines Ghostbusters, Resident Evil 1 and Mario. It's crazy and I just find it so interesting of how do you make that interesting for an eight year old. And they've made it like the they've made it well and you could dive into that subject, but I find that really interesting and I remember as a kid just bringing my family members in front of the screens and explaining to them how. You know, you see Mario on on the cute little games everywhere and suddenly boom there's a ghost in front of you. And it's crazy, yeah.
speaker-0: I love that. I love that idea of just, you know, kind of expressing that passion to the family and just getting everybody excited about the thing that you loved and and yeah, you mentioned that kind of translated into a a a a school for game design at Rubica. ⁓ how was that how did you find that school and and and and how was that process going into that?
speaker-1: ⁓ my dad helped me do some research around where we were living. ⁓ I ⁓ I lived in the north of France, so there was Lille, there was Paris, big cities around. we tried going to like open days ⁓ where they show you the school, students are here, you can ask questions. ⁓ I went to a few and I think there was two or three that really retained my attention, but Rubica was the biggest I think from Like they had a these I I was in a lucky position that they they had about twenty five, twenty-seven years of experience by back then. Like they've been a s a ⁓ a design and and animation school for a while. And they just moved into this huge building with lots of new computers, new equipment. It was all big and shiny and it looked like yeah, there was gonna be some ⁓ good learning opportunities, lots of new students because it wasn't just now. classes of thirty game designers. It was an amphitheatre with a hundred of them. So ⁓ so many horizons, so many different people to learn from. So I think I was lucky in that in that aspect.
speaker-0: Yeah, that sounds like a great opportunity. And to find a school that have been around for that long as well. I don't feel like there are that many video game design, you know, game development colleges that have been that successful and and been around for that long. That was a really good good find.
speaker-1: Yeah, it i it i it it is. Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm very glad and grateful that they they chose me as one of their own.
speaker-0: Mm. So so you studied game design, was it a very broad course? Was it you know, ⁓ what kind of exposure did you get to the process?
speaker-1: I think it was quite quite interesting their approach because it was in five years, so you could do a bachelor degree in three years and then push more in the master. I have the master's degree in game and management. Game design and management. And the first year is fully board games. So for the first year you do not touch a computer, almost not in the sense of making a game. No engine, nothing. And you were making yeah, board games because that way you can just cut paper, you you know, the medium doesn't matter. What matters is learning the design theories, ⁓ and processes and principles. And I think that was a good way of separating who was here because they love to play video games and didn't really understand what was behind and who was really interested in what's a mechanic, what's a rule, what's yeah. What's making a game fun? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. And and and then and so you mentioned it's kind of game design and and project management, so it kind of gave you quite a broad learning on the process?
speaker-1: Yeah, they gave us that I think that mindset of learn a bit of everything. It doesn't matter if you're an expert in programming, art, environment, three D, two D, just learn about everything because when you make your game you will impact all the all the departments. Whether you're an indie or you're in a company with five hundred employees in one project, it's yeah, ⁓ you will you will impact everybody so or every part of what you're making. So I think That was a a a good way of doing it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. I mean y and so you you're there for five years, you get the masters. and throughout that process you also did some interning as well at a couple of
speaker-1: Yeah, they they they gave us like ⁓ I think in third year, fourth year, like to confirm your year you had to do an internship, ⁓ which forces us again to ⁓ go out and and and seek employment, seek some professional experience which helps then you know ⁓ build your C V before even s ⁓ graduating. So that was ⁓ that was quite interesting. I did ⁓ I think a few ⁓ internships that were ⁓ that's quite far back now but yeah ⁓ like the they they weren't necessarily just in in video games itself. I I remember a a small company that was trying to make RC like sailing boats with like Microsoft's augmented reality glasses. I think the HoloVision the HoloLens yeah HoloLens, yes that's it. And they were trying to mix the two of us up. So you were ⁓ on a lake and using the boats, but the the glasses would show you like a a battleship kind of game mode and you could play with others and I think that was a a a great experiment. I I don't know if it's ⁓ possible to make it for the public because you know you need ⁓ RC boats plus the the HoloVision plus the controller plus the the game But yeah, it ⁓ it gave us a lot of different yeah aspects of the game design and how it applies not only to video games on a computer but everything we could make. So I think that was great.
speaker-0: Yeah, that sounds really good. And and how was that kind of transition from you know, you've been at at college for sort of two or three years and then you go even if it's ⁓ you know, a few months, you go work in a professional space, you know, and and try and apply what you've learned. How was that transition?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think again it was a lot of circumstances that pushed me to Codemasters, ⁓ because I graduated in twenty twenty and that's when COVID happened. So my uni was still like w I think the last few months of graduation just before we were finishing our graduation game and it was a car game, it was a racing game. like battle royal car game kind of thing. And ⁓ yeah, we we needed an internship of six months to confirm the whole masters. And one of my friend ⁓ was approached by a someone at Codemaster who said to him we're looking for a level designer, but he's a programmer. So he said, I don't ⁓ I don't want to do level design, but I know someone So introduced me to him and I said, I want an internship. They said, How about a job? So it was really great. ⁓ they couldn't take an intern because they well it was COVID, you couldn't just you know, you had to make someone relocalize ⁓ in in England. so they just said ⁓ we really like your profile, you're very interested in cars in F1, you have a video game about cars, you're already dabbling in that. So you've you've got the perfect profile that we can j then educate in in our ⁓ company because they were searching for a junior for that purpose because it's someone you can really shape to their company structure compared to taking someone who already has years of experience. And ⁓ yeah, I think that's how the transition happened. I just said yes. I didn't really think about ⁓ I need to move to England. ⁓ but Yeah, it just happened and ⁓ I signed the contract and then I had to find an apartment. I had to reach out to people in the UK. my future colleagues, ⁓ people that I I knew in the UK and say, Where where do I go? Where do I where do I leave? And ⁓ they gave me some pointers and I made my debut there.
speaker-0: Yeah, so I mean that's a big move, right? So 'cause it sounds like Rubica was fairly close to where you grew up, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So you sort of stayed roughly in your sort of home area. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. A few hours away from my parents so it wasn't too far. I still I still had a place there to study and be away from family, but ⁓ but yeah, I was ⁓ very close to them so suddenly had to move. ⁓ personally I never really looked back, I think. Just I really like it. ⁓ I like the UK, I like where I am even now, third kind game, that's great. So I I've never really looked back on Have I done the right choice or not? I didn't really think about all those things. I just made the move. And my family was ⁓ more scared for me than me.
speaker-0: Well it sounds like you grabbed an opportunity with both hands and and dived right in. Would you w how do how about language? Were you relatively okay with English? Should you you know, was that transition?
speaker-1: Yeah, I I alwa I already was fluent in English. I think I've gone I think I am better now. ⁓ I've learned the little ⁓ details, the expressions around ⁓ Birmingham and where I am. So ⁓ I think I've definitely evolved i in the language, but I already had the the basics for everything.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. But so that makes it little bit less intimidating, but s but still that's a big I love how you were just like I'm going, like this is the this is my chance, I'm not gonna stop for it. Yeah, exactly. And and you mentioned yeah, you mentioned kind of cars and you know, Formula One and I'm a petrol head myself, so had that always been a passion? Like had you had you always desired to make racing racing games or you know, had you had you mash those those passions together? I mean it sounds like your project was that. Was that your idea or you know, how did that come together?
speaker-1: It wasn't my idea the the fifth year project, battle cars it was called. I w it wasn't my idea, but it was someone like minded. And yeah, we Yeah, I I I've always liked cars. I think since I'm a kid, my my granddad used to watch F1, so ⁓ he loved Michael Schumacher, so ⁓ we were looking at that together. I learned about F1, I learned about with need for speed about the Japanese domestic market, you know. I love those I love those kind of cars. ⁓ I learned about yeah, muscle cars. My mom loves muscle cars. I think somehow I think we also like cars in the family. And ⁓ yeah, racing. I've never felt I wanted to do a racing game specifically, it just happened. But I've played a lot of racing type of games. I ⁓ th I remember SSX, ⁓ Wipeout, they're all games that are like anti gravity like spaceships, but racing or surf or skiing, racing is something competitive was always there in some sort of race. So making racing games was just yeah. Bit of an ⁓ yeah, evidence in a way.
speaker-0: It sounds like an easy yes, right? Like it's a passion that you're into. I I kinda like combat designers. I don't think racing design you know, g pe folks that know cars and want to make car based games are a little bit few and far between, you know, that r actually have the experience to do it, I think. So it sounds like you were you know, that's why they they jumped at the chance to to to find someone, you know, with the experience you had from school and also, you know, the role to to come into a role that you were, you know, on a on a genre you were passionate about.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I must have yeah, sold the idea well that I was really eager to learn how to make roads and and yeah, make the camber, the undulation, everything. Yeah. 'Cause
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And s and so you you joined as a as a level designer.
speaker-1: Yeah, as a junior level designer on Greed Legends.
speaker-0: Yes. Great game. I love that game. ⁓ so so building tracks and like you say, kind of assembling that, you know, the w was that a combine I'm trying to remember. It's it's a combination of real tracks and and and
speaker-1: Fictional, yeah, yeah, yeah. They ⁓ so I didn't really make tracks for it ⁓ myself because when I arrived on the project, they were kind of already done with the creative part of the roads, but there was everything else to make all the barriers, all the crowds, the ⁓ replay cameras, everything else was to be made, and there were some opportunities then in DLCs as well. So When I arrived it was a perfect time 'cause they were building the tracks that were already designed so I could learn all those bits first and make my own fictional little loop on the side for me to learn how to make a road ⁓ with their tools. ⁓ and I think I had one of the best teams ⁓ I've ever had on that project. I think 'cause ⁓ my first manager and my first mentor, Steven and Becky, were just incredible on that. they were so clear. Their documentation was amazing. You know, they had twenty years and fifteen years or something like that of experience in Codemasters. That was their whole employment on that. And ⁓ they were just yeah, amazing and great on that.
speaker-0: Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, you you're going into a studio with such a pedigree for building, you know, high super high quality. I'm a huge Codemasters fan, I love all I've loved all of their games. So, you know, I'm sure their tool chain was very mature, I'm sure their sort of approach and process was very mature. Must have been a really good place to to get your feet wet and kind of really learn the process of of of building games for real.
speaker-1: ⁓ it was great, like their experience. ⁓ I I could learn so much from them. I I could still I think I not that, you know, of course I absolutely love third kind games. I've met some wonderful people there as well. ⁓ but I I I I would be lying if I didn't say I had a bit of sadness leaving Codemasters for another studio when I did two years ago, 'cause I felt like I could have learned so much more from them for racing specifically and Yeah, I could have ⁓ yeah, could have ⁓ could have stayed quite a long time at Codemasters, I think.
speaker-0: And and it's also that first studio, right? That first studio Yeah, it never there's always a w I used to have wistfulness about, you know, my time at my first studio 'cause you you kinda grow up there, right? You kind of get your you know, cut your teeth
speaker-1: Yeah, it has a place, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that's my first four years of level design there and ⁓ you grow quite fast but also yeah too fast in there.
speaker-0: For sure. And how how was that process? You you've you spent five years at at college, you've done some interns internships, but now you're at a you know real studio and a you know, a very established studio. Like how was that? Was it what you expected? Was it, you know, intimidating? Like how did how did that process feel?
speaker-1: think it was a bit of a weird process for everybody. ⁓ because like I said, it was COVID. I joined end of twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, ⁓ like beginning of twenty twenty one. So ⁓ it was like they they needed to onboard me but we couldn't be at the studio. Everybody was working from home. So a lot of the processes IT was scrambling everywhere to get everybody working on Teams and and So for a long time, I think the first six months, I worked with these people and I didn't even know their faces because we didn't even use cameras, I think, at at first or or not straight away. So we had that yeah, that moment of I'm I'm learning but also I'm not seeing there's nothing tangible. I'm just at my desk at home. So it was difficult. It's only about a year after that we returned to the studio and that's when I started having more of that. office relationship banter and and e it's easier to learn and ask by just hey can I you know turn around to the next person. so I think yeah it was difficult for them as well because it it's hard to mentor someone when they're not in front of you. And yeah new new way of doing it. They had to figure out a lot of things. And that's why communication was key, I think, between them and me. But like I said, I think they did a great job and I think ⁓ I learned so much from them.
speaker-0: Did did you feel a lot of pressure to, you know, kind of work harder to show up, given that you were remote? Like it was that hard you know, did it makes it harder, right, when you're first joining, like you say, to build relationships and get to know people. Did you feel that put a lot of pressure on you to kind of, you know, communicate more and, you know, show up more or you know, you think like was it harder that way?
speaker-1: I don't know, I just felt like I needed to give a hundred percent whatever was happening. I just wanted to I think prove myself really and show that they didn't hire me for nothing. I wanted to give them value for their money. And ⁓ yeah, I think ⁓ I think it works when my because my my team was caring, they really were after my opinion, after It's not just because I'm a junior, I'm learning, they also want a fresh eye on their levels, even if they're done. They just they were constantly asking for my opinion. So I always felt value myself, valued myself. So yeah, I I just wanted, I was eager to give more my opinion, my my sentiment, my my feelings on what was happening, learning or or not. I was just really invested. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's great. And at the same time you're in a new country, in a place you've not lived before, on lockdown for at least a period of time, which yeah, I guess in some ways maybe made that a little bit easier 'cause you couldn't go anywhere, right? Really, you could just all you could do is stay at home, but I'm sure once lockdown lifted you've got to deal with the sort of the challenge of establishing yourself in a new place whilst also trying to establish yourself at work.
speaker-1: Yeah, in a way it was both hard because lockdown, you don't know anybody and even if you could go out it it's like, well, I have no friends here, I just have to make them. So there was a lot of balance of trying to not focus too much on work but what the what else is there than work because I didn't know anybody, I didn't have butch, so I needed to grow my furniture, my ⁓ My everything really 'cause I started from zero. But ⁓ I think I yeah, you just have to l let time do its thing, it just happens.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah, it's just let it let it kinda shake out play out as it will. ⁓ So so you worked on Grid Legends, then he worked on WLC.
speaker-1: Yeah, two years later WRC happened. ⁓ that was a shift because grid we were about four or five level designers and suddenly on WRC two teams were combined because Grid Legends was the last the last of its ⁓ of its license and then we were fused with WRC. Suddenly we weren't five level designers, we were fifteen. But it's a big game. So when you have every stage is 30 plus kilometers of road, ⁓ yeah, you need that expertise. And so it's like it's still a racing game, but it's a it's a completely different category. And yeah, we it it's almost like you have to learn everything again. even though you know the tools, you know some of the ⁓ team, now you have a bigger team, a way bigger team, another structure, another way of doing the circuits because well it's not circuits anymore, it's ⁓ sprint races, it's a point A to B, so it's different. And again I think that team is was the same as as greed. It it it had an expertise, a twenty year expertise in the field. I'm thinking of ⁓ all of them and ⁓ yeah they they all gave me their experience again. I think the sh the the communication was so great in that team. It was everywhere and we we had a very good way of functioning where ⁓ it was always on each stage a very experienced level designer with one of the youngest and it was like that on every stage so that we still have freedom I could do my own stage and my I had my creativity, but I always had someone that I could l you know, lean on and f ask for advice, ask for help with ⁓ everything I wanted to do because they had the experience and equally they they sometimes asked me, Can you test my track? Can you tell me what you think of it? And you know, again there was that yes, they have more experience but they still ask for my opinion we because we're We're all in the same iteration process, so we need each other's voices, even if they have less experience. It's still important.
speaker-0: Yeah. What a great structure. What a great way to learn and a great way to yeah, to to help you grow, help the team grow and also deliver. I mean, I was a big dirt fan, so seeing Cody's do a WLC game, I was very excited. I love I love that game too. ⁓ and and and I guess also a different challenge, you know, all basically all licensed tracks, all the it was all the real stages, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we took them from ⁓ Google Earth really. So you know, we we had the chance of working with WRC on this, so they gave us their onboard videos. So you had all the all the great, you know, drivers and pilots of of WRC. You had their Go pros and you could see where the road dips, where there's a crest, where there's a little ⁓ puddle, where there's anything and you could just recreate that in the game. It wasn't necessarily one to one because of course, you know, i what happens in real life when you play it on a game, it might not be as fun, so sometimes we have to exaggerate a bump or just smooth it out so it's less less bumpy and yeah, we we made it ⁓ realistic but fun as well. It was this balance of it looks like the real deal, but plays better.
speaker-0: Right, yeah, that's interesting. So two things fascinating me there. One, so you're building the tracks basically by eye, right? You don't have any LIDAR data or any kind of track scanning data, no, you've just got videos and Google Earth. Is that basically how you assemble the tracks?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's how we did it. ⁓ I think that was great actually, because from Google Earth you can get quite a lot of data. and ⁓ you could also extract it to Unreal Engine. So you you already had a quite a very solid base and you just had to modify it to accommodate the ⁓ yeah yeah, the the the track and and the feel of the player, what we wanted him to do. ⁓ for it to feel and look like the the original track.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But then you're playing with reality a little bit just to make it a bit more fun and a bit more interactive, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, enhance re reality so that it's more fun, more interesting.
speaker-0: D do you ever find that you kinda went too far with that? You know, you kind of pushed a a you know, a crest to be a little bit too big or and and people started to ra realize that you were kind of cheating things a little bit or you know I
speaker-1: Don't remember seeing a comment or anything that said that it's too far gone. No, I don't think we've seen that. We we had a comments that there was like a a a very huge jump and it was too big a of a jump but at the same time they were saying it's so funny, so we're like, well if they like it, we're gonna leave it that way.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and those were I mean, both Grid and WRC were relatively short turnarounds, yeah, in terms of project length.
speaker-1: yeah, it was about two years once I joined. Yeah, yeah. I think well, technically great started before I joined like this. So I suppose it was more three or four years on it, and same with WRC. Yeah. So I think there was some overlaps and they were bigger, I'm sure. But also EAWC is basically dirt rally three point ⁓ So
speaker-0: Okay. Right. So there's been some
speaker-1: We had the base from the previous game, so it's not starting from scratch. We're just changing it to the brand. And ⁓ I think Grid Legends was very close to the grid from twenty twenty, so we we always had something to build on.
speaker-0: Yeah. But with all Grid Legends had all the excellent ⁓ Drive to Survive esque video stuff in it, which I love.
speaker-1: That was great. They did an amazing job. They did an amazing job with that.
speaker-0: All the interviews and the video, the the real the f the raw footage was inter interlaced in the game. It was such a cool idea.
speaker-1: Yeah. I think Greed Legends, ⁓ it's I know it's my first game, so it's probably got I've I'm biased and it's got a special place in my heart, but there's ⁓ I think there's a problem with that game. It came out, I think it came out a week after Elden Ring and a week or two weeks before GT's Gran Turismo 7. So we we were in between the two biggest games of the year. And one of them was a racing game. So it it got forgotten and I'm sure if people gave it a chance it it's a great, great game.
speaker-0: I completely agree, Louie. I think it's ⁓ way underrated that game. I loved Grid Legends, yeah.
speaker-1: And I'm not saying that 'cause it's my first game.
speaker-0: No, and I'm not saying it for any other reason than I love the grid franchise and I thought it was a really great evolution of the the grid franchise. I love the handling model of grid and yeah, the whole drive to survive stuff. I was just people talking about the new ⁓ clutch, the new and I was w I was like, it feels like Grid Legends but with r real time characters instead of video characters. It reminded me of Grid Legends so much.
speaker-1: Yeah, it feels they wanted to do some sort of great Forza Horizon with different categories and everything, so I'm very excited for that I think.
speaker-0: Yeah, me too. ⁓ so yeah, so so sounds like, you know, across grid and and WLC you've got a really good opportunity to learn and and grow and kind of develop into a you know a ⁓ into the role. ⁓ and then you move on. You move on from from Codemasters to to Maverick. ⁓ sorry, to third kind games, yeah. ⁓ yes, how did that how did that come about?
speaker-1: Well, ⁓ someone from Third King Game contacted me, said, Look, we're looking for a senior level designer and your profile's very interesting 'cause we're making a game that's gonna be about racing. ⁓ it's not gonna be cars, but it's gonna be different. So we had a first talk. I wanna say about twenty twenty three, but it didn't lead to anything. I I told him basically that ⁓ well it was a great offer, but I'm I'm very attached to Codemasters. I was in a good place. I felt like I was like not necessarily a junior le yeah mo junior anymore, but ⁓ I was still growing, I was in a good place, so I didn't want to move. And I was in a good place, so I stayed there. but then he contacted me a year later when I feel like It's been four years at Codemasters and I love the team and I feel like I I could learn more like I said. But I also felt ⁓ I'm not a junior anymore and you know, they're not necessarily considering a a a promotion, so I understand that as well. It's n you know, that's how companies work. So I had a few discussions, the yeah, they had a very nice offer and The game was about yeah, making this mountain bike game in open world, so it was like Forza but for bikes. And I thought I'd love to dabble into open world. I thought that that that's the thing that really got me, I think. That I thought if I can make a racing game but open world, that gives me more skills to put on my CV that puts like to even yeah, consider new experiences. So Yeah, I I agreed to it and I just made the jump. And ⁓ I think it's been great. I think we're ⁓ on this ⁓ on this game we've been ⁓ very short on the level design side there. I've I think I've been the permanent one. There's been another level designer who then stopped being on the project because they needed him on something else. ⁓ and ⁓ someone else joined after ⁓ from ⁓ Matt Jones' team. So I think I've I've I've made most of like seven sixty, seventy percent of the level. So I'm very scared of I'm I'm like I'm I'm always thinking, have I done a good job, have I not? I think that one I'm I'm more ⁓ yeah, worried about I would say because I went from a very big structure of fifteen level designer to hello here, take take your pick, make your choice. And Yeah, ⁓ I think I'm in that period now where I'm approaching six years of experience and I'm really wondering where do I need to ⁓ reinforce my knowledge. I think. So yeah, I made the jump. I think we've done a great game and it's been in early access now for a while, so people can experience it and I'm looking at the at the feedback. I'm looking at all of it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, well it's also about 'cause like you say, you've gone from, you know, working with a large team of level designers with this interesting kind of veteran, you know, rookie structure, and then you're kind of thrown into not only on your own, but also a very different type of level design experience, right? Considering the whole what is you know, how many ha square kilometres of the of the of the world. How is that present how have you adapted your skills to that?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, that was ⁓ quite a jump. It was I think when I arrived there was this other level designer there, he was already researching trails, so he had started some kind of ⁓ research on the tools, on on what we should use, on what ⁓ we should do. And he had a very technical mind, I think. He was really going straight into Technically, how are we making the trails? And I thought we need a process. We need to know where are the trails, where what how do you get to the trails? How do you fast travel to it? How do you get to it on you know on your wheels? w what what's the world? What's the experience? What's ⁓ what does it look like? Is Maverick's ⁓ some sort of festival like for the horizon? Is it not? Is it a world? Is it a bike park called Maverick's bike park? Is it you know so I I was trying to make a a world building more sort of experience because I was thinking we need to make sure we have the processes and that they're in place so that we level designers know how to make the levels, but also how to tell game designers, how to tell programmers and artists how to make those things. ⁓ so yeah, it's been difficult. ⁓ I won't lie, it's been I've been thrown in the deep end, but I had all this knowledge from Codemasters that I just applied at first kind of mechanically and then I realised why we were doing this or that or the other and I just adjusted it to our new project. And ⁓ I think I think the team's been great at helping me. ⁓ the art director, the the game designer, the other level designer, they've all had an impact. ⁓ they've given me feedback, they've given me a lot of help, so I think we've done a good job.
speaker-0: And just from this conversation, Louis, it sounds like you're someone that l kinda likes to jump into those kind of challenges and just get going, right? And just face ⁓ down and and and
speaker-1: Yeah, I I think I think that's probably one of my flow. I I do not think before I jump into a challenge, I just go in the challenge and then figure out what do I need to do.
speaker-0: I'm not sure I'd call that a flaw, Louie. I'd call that a a a p a superpower. I think there's plenty of people that hold themselves back from doing that 'cause they're too afraid to to make that jump, right, and to take that risk.
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ I think so far in my life I feel like if I don't think before the challenge, then once I'm in it I just have to figure it out. That's when if you're already in the challenge, there's there's nothing that can stop you from trying. And if you fail, just try again.
speaker-0: I love that. I mean, as someone that's also moved countries for a job and like just rolled up my sleeves and gone, Okay, I guess I'm figuring this out you know, I can empathize with that a lot. I think I think it's easy to paralyse yourself on what might happen and sometimes it's better to just go for it and see what does happen.
speaker-1: I feel like if you if you stop yourself you just lose the opportunity and I'm sure not every opportunity in life is up for the take in, but so far I just prefer just thinking after.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. No, I I I like I say I empathise a lot with that. I think I'm very similar. ⁓ so so yeah, so so you've been been at that kind i w Why level design, Louis? Why is level design you know, you went to college, you sounds like you got a broad ⁓ exposure to to design and different types of design. Why did level design draw you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think to be fair it's it started I could talk about that. I it started with sound design, really. I was into music as well. I've I've learned some instruments. I've ⁓ I wanted to be a DJ at some point as well. and I thought composing music was something a hobby I liked as well in high school and and college. And I developed while I was in college because there was nobody in my everybody wanted to do like game design, level design, programming, art environment, 3D, but nobody wanted to do sound design. There was probably another guy, so we were two out of a hundred and fifty people who knew kind of how to use a software like FL Studio or Appleton and how to make some sound design and oscillators. So Yeah, I just became one of the guys in in in my uni where if we needed to make a game, we could ask Louie to make some sound effects or s some background music, something. I'm absolutely not good at it, but I knew how to do these things. And ⁓ I liked it. At first I wanted to also go into sound design. I was just doing game design because I liked video games. And I realize I think that what I like about sound design and game design is that I want to impact how the player feels. So I thought the best way to impact the feeling directly is level design, because from level design you can direct with the blockout, you can direct where art is going, where the light is coming from, what you know, ⁓ if you want them to be in a very s small corridor and then they're oppressed or if they're in an open area, if there's a big vista, if you want them to see something very beautiful, very cool, a wow effect. And that's things you can get through music, but you can as a level designer tell where the music is coming. You can do rhythm games, you can do so I just felt like level design was the key to all of these areas in one go.
speaker-0: Yeah, I like that. A what a way to kind of direct the player experience across, you know, multiple disciplines and yeah, and shape the game.
speaker-1: Exactly. You don't you don't control every area, but if you have an idea, you can help the artists shape that idea. You can help the programmer and make the like the the scripts. If you wanted a tree to you know, you just make the block and the programmer can make it better, but yeah, y you can touch everything and and even sound.
speaker-0: Yeah. And that that's a very y it sounds like you're coming at it from a very sort of collaborative angle, right? You're kind of excited about helping, you know, shape the player experience by working with the other departments to to build something fun and and and fa is that is that you, Louis? Are you someone that enjoys, you know, kind of collaboration and and working with other folks?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I've tried doing i an indie game alone and I think I struggle with that. I really like to put myself in perspective all the time. And it's way better when there's someone to talk to. Because I can ask them questions about how I am, about how I've done things, I can ask for help, I can help someone as well, shape something if I have a cool idea. So It's always been yeah, I I I like companies where I know I'm not alone in a team and I can just have other people that we can make something better together.
speaker-0: Hm. Yeah, that's that's interesting. I I think I'm similar, although I think mine or or originates in a crushing lack of self confidence, right? Like to me that the collaboration part was like, Hey, it's great because at least we're all carrying the weight, you know, like and if I'm a self-
speaker-1: Probably that as well with me.
speaker-0: Yeah, I wonder if that's also yeah, there's something beneficial about having people around you, right, that can shoulder the load and come up with good ideas and, you know, help make everything better. It's not just all on you to make it good and, you know, be the face of it.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I do I do understand and I I I I am the same with that where I do like the fact that it's not just me as well. ⁓ you know, probably 'cause you can hide behind it saying it's the level design, it's it's not just me.
speaker-0: Well, and I think there's nothing more validating than kind of helping someone else make something great because then you're like, ⁓ I you know, what I did was was clearly good because it Exactly, yeah. As opposed to when you do it by yourself and you're like, I don't know, is it any good? I I hope so. ⁓ yeah, there's something about that. Yeah. ⁓ if you weren't making games, Louie, what would you be doing?
speaker-1: Because it's part of what they do. ⁓ I'd probably be a therapist. I think it's it's it ties with the with game design actually because ⁓ as a game designer you're trying to be in the mind of a player in what they're doing. ⁓ tr keep them in the state of flow, you know. And for some reason it sounds like psychology has a bit of that, a bit of
speaker-0: Interesting.
speaker-1: understanding the mind of someone else, helping them with that and it feels like you can do it through games in a way you can ⁓ alleviate their mental load every day with games and that's that's something I'd do, I think. And yeah, psychology.
speaker-0: I love that, yeah. I mean I I think a big part of that is empathy, right? You know, when you're when you're a designer you need empathy for the player and the player experience and I think that's a big part of ther you know, being a psych psychiatrist or a therapist, like say. Interesting. Yeah, that's cool. and and you know, you you mentioned so you you're kinda younger brothers that play, like how do they relate to your career? Do they you are they excited by it? Do they talk to you about it? Like do any of your family members kind of relate to to what you do?
speaker-1: That's how I see it, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ they have in the past. they have asked me how things were done. ⁓ we've played my previous games like Greed Legends and WRC with them. ⁓ Maverick's not too much alre yet, but I'd like to play it with them, see what they think of it. ⁓ That's definitely something I wanna do more with them. ⁓ but as a general Yeah, as a general rule everybody's been asking my dad's been asking what I've done. He loves racing games, so he's been asking about the two E WRC and grids specifically, but yeah, and ⁓ I've done a talk at my old school because my mom knows one of the teachers so I I've been able to help with the high school students that are wondering about going to yeah video game industry to the video game video game industry so yeah I've I've got people interested in it. on my family so I can talk about video games.
speaker-0: That's great. Yeah, and I mean you mentioned your dad kinda helping you find Rubikha in the first place. Sounds like you've, you know, had a very supportive
speaker-1: Yeah, my parents were invested. They were behind me.
speaker-0: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Not I think, you know, plenty of parents have been like, Wait, you want to do what? And it's nice to yeah, parents that are inv invested, that's that's great. ⁓ and you know, obviously, yeah, racing games is a you know, is a is a niche. It's a niche that I love, but it is definitely, you know, a a a genre, right, a type of genre. ⁓ if you could if you could take what you've learned and you know and smash it against a genre that you've not worked in, what would that be?
speaker-1: I think I'd like to make horror games. That's one thing I'm I've re I'm really into horror ⁓ and and I wonder if there's a way to make a horror like racing experience somehow somehow. Because yeah, that's that's something that would be yeah difficult to imagine. So I'm wondering if there's something there that could be made.
speaker-0: ⁓ you got my gears turning now, Louie. I'm suddenly picturing like false you know, a view out of a viewport. I mean, ⁓ what's that game? ⁓ there's a game where you've got this station wagon, like American station wagon, and you're trying to make it through this crazy environment. What's that called? Pacific Drive. But that's that's got some s kind of creepy stuff in it. But I think a lot of the creepy stuff happens outside the car. That's a really cool idea. I love the idea of you know, maybe What you see through the windscreen, is that real or is it not? You know, and and trying to yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, there is something there. Playing with the the players' vision, making them sweat.
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. We're not sure which way to turn. ⁓ that's a cool yeah, that would be a fun a fun opportunity to kind of combine what you've learned so far with with you know, with a with a passion that you have and and what what is it about horror games that draws you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I don't I've never been able to answer that question. I feel like ⁓ I I don't necessarily like to be scared in real life, but in a video game I feel safe enough to do it. Like ⁓ f something weird, for example, my partner loves haunted houses, going to you know, the theme parks, haunted houses where there's actors scaring you. I absolutely hate it. I I cannot do it. I I I am really scared of it. But I absolutely love Outlast, I I I love horror games, Resident Evil, all of that. Whereas in front of the screen she is scared of it. Huh. And I feel like I do not understand this because I'm like, this is a screen, it's fine, it's not gonna jump out of the screen. Whereas an actor is in front of you. So it's different. It's literally a live experience. And yeah, for her it's it's more ⁓ fun to be
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: frightened by real people and by a haunted house and experience in front of you. Whereas she's very scared of of a screen and and I'm the opposite. So I I'd like to dig into that I think 'cause I I I don't understand why yeah the the the horror experience is different for the both of us. I wonder why.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, that'd be a good one to to apply some therapy to and try and dig into
speaker-1: I wonder what's what's going on. I know for me that ⁓ my mom introduced me to Resident Evil One when I was ten years old on PS1. ⁓ so that's probably where the horror stems from. I started with those.
speaker-0: Yeah. So so both your parents were gamers then?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My mum she was fascinated by horror games. She was scared of them, but she she was fascinated. I think there was like this I'm scared but I wanna look. And ⁓ she was telling me to not be too much in front, of course she was mm conscious I'm ten years old and I did have nightmares. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ she got me hooked and ⁓ later on Silent Hill came out, Silent Hill 2, 3 The room. Resident Evil I ⁓ it was her favorite ⁓ license, so I continued that one as well. ⁓ one of my favorite two. And then I I I went into more indie ⁓ horror games that came out that was Outlasted, that was groundbreaking as well. ⁓ what can I think of recently? That was good. I really liked The ⁓ what's it called? Soma? That's great. That was amazing as an experience. Yeah. So ⁓ and my my partner likes horror games even though she prefers when I play. So we we keep we can keep doing that. That's great.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Great. Yeah, yeah. It's a good thing to share and I I guess it sounds like you kind of enjoy the tension and the the stress. I I'm the same. I love I my wife and I both love horror games, so yeah, there's something about that tension.
speaker-1: It's a different pacing, like 'cause you can there's a clear make something fast or make something slow. There's there's so many different elements of it that is way different from a racing game and I'd love to go into that and learn more about those experiences as well.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. ⁓ I'm conscious of time, so as we kind of wind this down. ⁓ you know, making video games can be quite consuming, right? It can you know for some, it is for me. I I I'm curious how you reflect on that, Louis. Like it is you've you know, you you several years into your career now. Do you feel that video games, making video games or being a video game developer defines who you are? Or is it, you know, just one aspect of you as a as a human?
speaker-1: think it's one aspect. ⁓ it's not my whole life. I absolutely love it. But I also love theme parks. I love horror. I love horror movies. I love ⁓ metal. I love going to festivals and gigs. there's I love tabletop roleplay games. I do a lot of the forever DM of my group. and yeah I just love different Aspects of myself and I feel like they all feed into each other. Sometimes there's principle of game design that I've learned and I've applied into the TTRPG roles and you know D D and all of that. But also I've applied the opposite of making maps to level design. same with ⁓ theme parks. ⁓ I I I studied how they were made, ⁓ how Disneyland was made and for the for the people, for everything. I just find it really interesting and I feel everything feeds into each other, but I'm not defined just by being a game developer. ⁓ but it's definitely something that I want to stay in and grow in. It's ⁓ I I really love doing that.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, you fet it sounds like you found a place that, you know, fits who you are as a person and, you know, gives you correct satisfaction and doesn't dominate who you are, but is a you know, a a a powerful part of of who you are today.
speaker-1: I'm in a sweet spot where ⁓ I I I have so much to learn, I think. But I I don't press it, I don't pressure it, it's not all at all at the same time. I'll just let ⁓ myself be guided by what's in front of me.
speaker-0: That's a very healthy way of looking at it, Louie. I wish I looked at it that way. ⁓ it it dominates too much of my personality sometimes. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ great great conversation. Thank you for your time. Fascinating journey. I mean, you know, as someone that's transplanted themselves from their home country to another country and, you know, found a a a way to, you know, to build a career, that's that's huge. And ⁓ I'm excited to you know, I'm excited for Mavericks. I'm excited for for what you do next.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, thank you very much. And thank you for your questions. I think th that was very insightful. It was help I think it helped me just define also ⁓ who I am.
speaker-0: There's a little bit of therapist that for me, back to you, there is.
speaker-1: Thank you very much for that.
speaker-0: Thanks.
speaker-1: Wow. that's a very vag like very vast question. I don't know how to answer it.
speaker-0: Open to you to interpret it however you want.
speaker-1: I guess ever since I'm a kid I've I've I think I've played video games ⁓ since I think my first console was somewhere like the Super Nintendo and thanks to my dad. ⁓ and ⁓ he had games on his PC with like a joystick ⁓ on Windows ninety five. He had Shadow of the Empire. That was that's the one that comes to mind. And I always wondered how do you make these? Ever since I was a kid, I I wondered How do you make these games? I've been interested in what was behind the scene. And I think I've I've never really actioned it until I was end of high school, wondering where I was going in college, and my ⁓ cousin said to me, Why don't you go into games? And it for some reason, saying it out loud, it became Well yeah, that's that makes sense. And ⁓ yeah, that's when I I I thought I'm gonna go apply to some video game design ⁓ course in in college. I found Rubica and that was one of the schools that I visited and the yeah the I applied to it, I got taken in and yeah, that's that's how I started I think in the field.
speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, so so you mentioned your friend so so growing up in France. Yeah. Any brothers or sisters, any other sort of you mentioned your dad was a gamer, but any ⁓ any other gamers in your family?
speaker-1: Yes, yes, yes, yes. ⁓ yeah, so I've got two little brothers, ⁓ Timio and Julian and they're ⁓ yeah, they're they're also gamers. They're also gamers. ⁓ very different types of gamers. I f I think it's really cool 'cause we all are different. I love horror games. I feel like Julien is more into shooters, ⁓ he's got GTA and Call of Duty and And and the last one he he loves FIFA, he loves sports games. So we we're well rounded and it's cool 'cause we can teach each other different games, diff different things. So it's really nice.
speaker-0: Yeah, so kind of a gaming family then. And I love the idea that you so it sounds like right from the start you were kind of fascinated by how games were made, but had maybe no understanding of how to to get into that. But y family members did. Family members like, You sh this is what you should do.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, in a way, yeah. This is what you should do. And yeah, they they push me. I've I've got ⁓ I'm very lucky that my family has been behind me on that. ⁓ straight from the bat. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. So you must have shown that passion then, you know, even without knowing it. You must have, you know, sort of talks about the way game I don't know if did you read magazines, you know, were there other
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ yeah, that was ⁓ yeah, I I used to yeah, I used to talk about games, I used to show them games ⁓ that I was amazed at. For example, I would say my favorite game ever is ⁓ Luigi's Mansion, the first one on GameCube. ⁓ and it's a weird choice, but what what I love about it is how it combines Ghostbusters, Resident Evil 1 and Mario. It's crazy and I just find it so interesting of how do you make that interesting for an eight year old. And they've made it like the they've made it well and you could dive into that subject, but I find that really interesting and I remember as a kid just bringing my family members in front of the screens and explaining to them how. You know, you see Mario on on the cute little games everywhere and suddenly boom there's a ghost in front of you. And it's crazy, yeah.
speaker-0: I love that. I love that idea of just, you know, kind of expressing that passion to the family and just getting everybody excited about the thing that you loved and and yeah, you mentioned that kind of translated into a a a a school for game design at Rubica. ⁓ how was that how did you find that school and and and and how was that process going into that?
speaker-1: ⁓ my dad helped me do some research around where we were living. ⁓ I ⁓ I lived in the north of France, so there was Lille, there was Paris, big cities around. we tried going to like open days ⁓ where they show you the school, students are here, you can ask questions. ⁓ I went to a few and I think there was two or three that really retained my attention, but Rubica was the biggest I think from Like they had a these I I was in a lucky position that they they had about twenty five, twenty-seven years of experience by back then. Like they've been a s a ⁓ a design and and animation school for a while. And they just moved into this huge building with lots of new computers, new equipment. It was all big and shiny and it looked like yeah, there was gonna be some ⁓ good learning opportunities, lots of new students because it wasn't just now. classes of thirty game designers. It was an amphitheatre with a hundred of them. So ⁓ so many horizons, so many different people to learn from. So I think I was lucky in that in that aspect.
speaker-0: Yeah, that sounds like a great opportunity. And to find a school that have been around for that long as well. I don't feel like there are that many video game design, you know, game development colleges that have been that successful and and been around for that long. That was a really good good find.
speaker-1: Yeah, it i it i it it is. Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm very glad and grateful that they they chose me as one of their own.
speaker-0: Mm. So so you studied game design, was it a very broad course? Was it you know, ⁓ what kind of exposure did you get to the process?
speaker-1: I think it was quite quite interesting their approach because it was in five years, so you could do a bachelor degree in three years and then push more in the master. I have the master's degree in game and management. Game design and management. And the first year is fully board games. So for the first year you do not touch a computer, almost not in the sense of making a game. No engine, nothing. And you were making yeah, board games because that way you can just cut paper, you you know, the medium doesn't matter. What matters is learning the design theories, ⁓ and processes and principles. And I think that was a good way of separating who was here because they love to play video games and didn't really understand what was behind and who was really interested in what's a mechanic, what's a rule, what's yeah. What's making a game fun? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. And and and then and so you mentioned it's kind of game design and and project management, so it kind of gave you quite a broad learning on the process?
speaker-1: Yeah, they gave us that I think that mindset of learn a bit of everything. It doesn't matter if you're an expert in programming, art, environment, three D, two D, just learn about everything because when you make your game you will impact all the all the departments. Whether you're an indie or you're in a company with five hundred employees in one project, it's yeah, ⁓ you will you will impact everybody so or every part of what you're making. So I think That was a a a good way of doing it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. I mean y and so you you're there for five years, you get the masters. and throughout that process you also did some interning as well at a couple of
speaker-1: Yeah, they they they gave us like ⁓ I think in third year, fourth year, like to confirm your year you had to do an internship, ⁓ which forces us again to ⁓ go out and and and seek employment, seek some professional experience which helps then you know ⁓ build your C V before even s ⁓ graduating. So that was ⁓ that was quite interesting. I did ⁓ I think a few ⁓ internships that were ⁓ that's quite far back now but yeah ⁓ like the they they weren't necessarily just in in video games itself. I I remember a a small company that was trying to make RC like sailing boats with like Microsoft's augmented reality glasses. I think the HoloVision the HoloLens yeah HoloLens, yes that's it. And they were trying to mix the two of us up. So you were ⁓ on a lake and using the boats, but the the glasses would show you like a a battleship kind of game mode and you could play with others and I think that was a a a great experiment. I I don't know if it's ⁓ possible to make it for the public because you know you need ⁓ RC boats plus the the HoloVision plus the controller plus the the game But yeah, it ⁓ it gave us a lot of different yeah aspects of the game design and how it applies not only to video games on a computer but everything we could make. So I think that was great.
speaker-0: Yeah, that sounds really good. And and how was that kind of transition from you know, you've been at at college for sort of two or three years and then you go even if it's ⁓ you know, a few months, you go work in a professional space, you know, and and try and apply what you've learned. How was that transition?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think again it was a lot of circumstances that pushed me to Codemasters, ⁓ because I graduated in twenty twenty and that's when COVID happened. So my uni was still like w I think the last few months of graduation just before we were finishing our graduation game and it was a car game, it was a racing game. like battle royal car game kind of thing. And ⁓ yeah, we we needed an internship of six months to confirm the whole masters. And one of my friend ⁓ was approached by a someone at Codemaster who said to him we're looking for a level designer, but he's a programmer. So he said, I don't ⁓ I don't want to do level design, but I know someone So introduced me to him and I said, I want an internship. They said, How about a job? So it was really great. ⁓ they couldn't take an intern because they well it was COVID, you couldn't just you know, you had to make someone relocalize ⁓ in in England. so they just said ⁓ we really like your profile, you're very interested in cars in F1, you have a video game about cars, you're already dabbling in that. So you've you've got the perfect profile that we can j then educate in in our ⁓ company because they were searching for a junior for that purpose because it's someone you can really shape to their company structure compared to taking someone who already has years of experience. And ⁓ yeah, I think that's how the transition happened. I just said yes. I didn't really think about ⁓ I need to move to England. ⁓ but Yeah, it just happened and ⁓ I signed the contract and then I had to find an apartment. I had to reach out to people in the UK. my future colleagues, ⁓ people that I I knew in the UK and say, Where where do I go? Where do I where do I leave? And ⁓ they gave me some pointers and I made my debut there.
speaker-0: Yeah, so I mean that's a big move, right? So 'cause it sounds like Rubica was fairly close to where you grew up, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So you sort of stayed roughly in your sort of home area. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. A few hours away from my parents so it wasn't too far. I still I still had a place there to study and be away from family, but ⁓ but yeah, I was ⁓ very close to them so suddenly had to move. ⁓ personally I never really looked back, I think. Just I really like it. ⁓ I like the UK, I like where I am even now, third kind game, that's great. So I I've never really looked back on Have I done the right choice or not? I didn't really think about all those things. I just made the move. And my family was ⁓ more scared for me than me.
speaker-0: Well it sounds like you grabbed an opportunity with both hands and and dived right in. Would you w how do how about language? Were you relatively okay with English? Should you you know, was that transition?
speaker-1: Yeah, I I alwa I already was fluent in English. I think I've gone I think I am better now. ⁓ I've learned the little ⁓ details, the expressions around ⁓ Birmingham and where I am. So ⁓ I think I've definitely evolved i in the language, but I already had the the basics for everything.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. But so that makes it little bit less intimidating, but s but still that's a big I love how you were just like I'm going, like this is the this is my chance, I'm not gonna stop for it. Yeah, exactly. And and you mentioned yeah, you mentioned kind of cars and you know, Formula One and I'm a petrol head myself, so had that always been a passion? Like had you had you always desired to make racing racing games or you know, had you had you mash those those passions together? I mean it sounds like your project was that. Was that your idea or you know, how did that come together?
speaker-1: It wasn't my idea the the fifth year project, battle cars it was called. I w it wasn't my idea, but it was someone like minded. And yeah, we Yeah, I I I've always liked cars. I think since I'm a kid, my my granddad used to watch F1, so ⁓ he loved Michael Schumacher, so ⁓ we were looking at that together. I learned about F1, I learned about with need for speed about the Japanese domestic market, you know. I love those I love those kind of cars. ⁓ I learned about yeah, muscle cars. My mom loves muscle cars. I think somehow I think we also like cars in the family. And ⁓ yeah, racing. I've never felt I wanted to do a racing game specifically, it just happened. But I've played a lot of racing type of games. I ⁓ th I remember SSX, ⁓ Wipeout, they're all games that are like anti gravity like spaceships, but racing or surf or skiing, racing is something competitive was always there in some sort of race. So making racing games was just yeah. Bit of an ⁓ yeah, evidence in a way.
speaker-0: It sounds like an easy yes, right? Like it's a passion that you're into. I I kinda like combat designers. I don't think racing design you know, g pe folks that know cars and want to make car based games are a little bit few and far between, you know, that r actually have the experience to do it, I think. So it sounds like you were you know, that's why they they jumped at the chance to to to find someone, you know, with the experience you had from school and also, you know, the role to to come into a role that you were, you know, on a on a genre you were passionate about.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I must have yeah, sold the idea well that I was really eager to learn how to make roads and and yeah, make the camber, the undulation, everything. Yeah. 'Cause
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And s and so you you joined as a as a level designer.
speaker-1: Yeah, as a junior level designer on Greed Legends.
speaker-0: Yes. Great game. I love that game. ⁓ so so building tracks and like you say, kind of assembling that, you know, the w was that a combine I'm trying to remember. It's it's a combination of real tracks and and and
speaker-1: Fictional, yeah, yeah, yeah. They ⁓ so I didn't really make tracks for it ⁓ myself because when I arrived on the project, they were kind of already done with the creative part of the roads, but there was everything else to make all the barriers, all the crowds, the ⁓ replay cameras, everything else was to be made, and there were some opportunities then in DLCs as well. So When I arrived it was a perfect time 'cause they were building the tracks that were already designed so I could learn all those bits first and make my own fictional little loop on the side for me to learn how to make a road ⁓ with their tools. ⁓ and I think I had one of the best teams ⁓ I've ever had on that project. I think 'cause ⁓ my first manager and my first mentor, Steven and Becky, were just incredible on that. they were so clear. Their documentation was amazing. You know, they had twenty years and fifteen years or something like that of experience in Codemasters. That was their whole employment on that. And ⁓ they were just yeah, amazing and great on that.
speaker-0: Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, you you're going into a studio with such a pedigree for building, you know, high super high quality. I'm a huge Codemasters fan, I love all I've loved all of their games. So, you know, I'm sure their tool chain was very mature, I'm sure their sort of approach and process was very mature. Must have been a really good place to to get your feet wet and kind of really learn the process of of of building games for real.
speaker-1: ⁓ it was great, like their experience. ⁓ I I could learn so much from them. I I could still I think I not that, you know, of course I absolutely love third kind games. I've met some wonderful people there as well. ⁓ but I I I I would be lying if I didn't say I had a bit of sadness leaving Codemasters for another studio when I did two years ago, 'cause I felt like I could have learned so much more from them for racing specifically and Yeah, I could have ⁓ yeah, could have ⁓ could have stayed quite a long time at Codemasters, I think.
speaker-0: And and it's also that first studio, right? That first studio Yeah, it never there's always a w I used to have wistfulness about, you know, my time at my first studio 'cause you you kinda grow up there, right? You kind of get your you know, cut your teeth
speaker-1: Yeah, it has a place, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that's my first four years of level design there and ⁓ you grow quite fast but also yeah too fast in there.
speaker-0: For sure. And how how was that process? You you've you spent five years at at college, you've done some interns internships, but now you're at a you know real studio and a you know, a very established studio. Like how was that? Was it what you expected? Was it, you know, intimidating? Like how did how did that process feel?
speaker-1: think it was a bit of a weird process for everybody. ⁓ because like I said, it was COVID. I joined end of twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, ⁓ like beginning of twenty twenty one. So ⁓ it was like they they needed to onboard me but we couldn't be at the studio. Everybody was working from home. So a lot of the processes IT was scrambling everywhere to get everybody working on Teams and and So for a long time, I think the first six months, I worked with these people and I didn't even know their faces because we didn't even use cameras, I think, at at first or or not straight away. So we had that yeah, that moment of I'm I'm learning but also I'm not seeing there's nothing tangible. I'm just at my desk at home. So it was difficult. It's only about a year after that we returned to the studio and that's when I started having more of that. office relationship banter and and e it's easier to learn and ask by just hey can I you know turn around to the next person. so I think yeah it was difficult for them as well because it it's hard to mentor someone when they're not in front of you. And yeah new new way of doing it. They had to figure out a lot of things. And that's why communication was key, I think, between them and me. But like I said, I think they did a great job and I think ⁓ I learned so much from them.
speaker-0: Did did you feel a lot of pressure to, you know, kind of work harder to show up, given that you were remote? Like it was that hard you know, did it makes it harder, right, when you're first joining, like you say, to build relationships and get to know people. Did you feel that put a lot of pressure on you to kind of, you know, communicate more and, you know, show up more or you know, you think like was it harder that way?
speaker-1: I don't know, I just felt like I needed to give a hundred percent whatever was happening. I just wanted to I think prove myself really and show that they didn't hire me for nothing. I wanted to give them value for their money. And ⁓ yeah, I think ⁓ I think it works when my because my my team was caring, they really were after my opinion, after It's not just because I'm a junior, I'm learning, they also want a fresh eye on their levels, even if they're done. They just they were constantly asking for my opinion. So I always felt value myself, valued myself. So yeah, I I just wanted, I was eager to give more my opinion, my my sentiment, my my feelings on what was happening, learning or or not. I was just really invested. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's great. And at the same time you're in a new country, in a place you've not lived before, on lockdown for at least a period of time, which yeah, I guess in some ways maybe made that a little bit easier 'cause you couldn't go anywhere, right? Really, you could just all you could do is stay at home, but I'm sure once lockdown lifted you've got to deal with the sort of the challenge of establishing yourself in a new place whilst also trying to establish yourself at work.
speaker-1: Yeah, in a way it was both hard because lockdown, you don't know anybody and even if you could go out it it's like, well, I have no friends here, I just have to make them. So there was a lot of balance of trying to not focus too much on work but what the what else is there than work because I didn't know anybody, I didn't have butch, so I needed to grow my furniture, my ⁓ My everything really 'cause I started from zero. But ⁓ I think I yeah, you just have to l let time do its thing, it just happens.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah, it's just let it let it kinda shake out play out as it will. ⁓ So so you worked on Grid Legends, then he worked on WLC.
speaker-1: Yeah, two years later WRC happened. ⁓ that was a shift because grid we were about four or five level designers and suddenly on WRC two teams were combined because Grid Legends was the last the last of its ⁓ of its license and then we were fused with WRC. Suddenly we weren't five level designers, we were fifteen. But it's a big game. So when you have every stage is 30 plus kilometers of road, ⁓ yeah, you need that expertise. And so it's like it's still a racing game, but it's a it's a completely different category. And yeah, we it it's almost like you have to learn everything again. even though you know the tools, you know some of the ⁓ team, now you have a bigger team, a way bigger team, another structure, another way of doing the circuits because well it's not circuits anymore, it's ⁓ sprint races, it's a point A to B, so it's different. And again I think that team is was the same as as greed. It it it had an expertise, a twenty year expertise in the field. I'm thinking of ⁓ all of them and ⁓ yeah they they all gave me their experience again. I think the sh the the communication was so great in that team. It was everywhere and we we had a very good way of functioning where ⁓ it was always on each stage a very experienced level designer with one of the youngest and it was like that on every stage so that we still have freedom I could do my own stage and my I had my creativity, but I always had someone that I could l you know, lean on and f ask for advice, ask for help with ⁓ everything I wanted to do because they had the experience and equally they they sometimes asked me, Can you test my track? Can you tell me what you think of it? And you know, again there was that yes, they have more experience but they still ask for my opinion we because we're We're all in the same iteration process, so we need each other's voices, even if they have less experience. It's still important.
speaker-0: Yeah. What a great structure. What a great way to learn and a great way to yeah, to to help you grow, help the team grow and also deliver. I mean, I was a big dirt fan, so seeing Cody's do a WLC game, I was very excited. I love I love that game too. ⁓ and and and I guess also a different challenge, you know, all basically all licensed tracks, all the it was all the real stages, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we took them from ⁓ Google Earth really. So you know, we we had the chance of working with WRC on this, so they gave us their onboard videos. So you had all the all the great, you know, drivers and pilots of of WRC. You had their Go pros and you could see where the road dips, where there's a crest, where there's a little ⁓ puddle, where there's anything and you could just recreate that in the game. It wasn't necessarily one to one because of course, you know, i what happens in real life when you play it on a game, it might not be as fun, so sometimes we have to exaggerate a bump or just smooth it out so it's less less bumpy and yeah, we we made it ⁓ realistic but fun as well. It was this balance of it looks like the real deal, but plays better.
speaker-0: Right, yeah, that's interesting. So two things fascinating me there. One, so you're building the tracks basically by eye, right? You don't have any LIDAR data or any kind of track scanning data, no, you've just got videos and Google Earth. Is that basically how you assemble the tracks?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's how we did it. ⁓ I think that was great actually, because from Google Earth you can get quite a lot of data. and ⁓ you could also extract it to Unreal Engine. So you you already had a quite a very solid base and you just had to modify it to accommodate the ⁓ yeah yeah, the the the track and and the feel of the player, what we wanted him to do. ⁓ for it to feel and look like the the original track.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But then you're playing with reality a little bit just to make it a bit more fun and a bit more interactive, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, enhance re reality so that it's more fun, more interesting.
speaker-0: D do you ever find that you kinda went too far with that? You know, you kind of pushed a a you know, a crest to be a little bit too big or and and people started to ra realize that you were kind of cheating things a little bit or you know I
speaker-1: Don't remember seeing a comment or anything that said that it's too far gone. No, I don't think we've seen that. We we had a comments that there was like a a a very huge jump and it was too big a of a jump but at the same time they were saying it's so funny, so we're like, well if they like it, we're gonna leave it that way.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and those were I mean, both Grid and WRC were relatively short turnarounds, yeah, in terms of project length.
speaker-1: yeah, it was about two years once I joined. Yeah, yeah. I think well, technically great started before I joined like this. So I suppose it was more three or four years on it, and same with WRC. Yeah. So I think there was some overlaps and they were bigger, I'm sure. But also EAWC is basically dirt rally three point ⁓ So
speaker-0: Okay. Right. So there's been some
speaker-1: We had the base from the previous game, so it's not starting from scratch. We're just changing it to the brand. And ⁓ I think Grid Legends was very close to the grid from twenty twenty, so we we always had something to build on.
speaker-0: Yeah. But with all Grid Legends had all the excellent ⁓ Drive to Survive esque video stuff in it, which I love.
speaker-1: That was great. They did an amazing job. They did an amazing job with that.
speaker-0: All the interviews and the video, the the real the f the raw footage was inter interlaced in the game. It was such a cool idea.
speaker-1: Yeah. I think Greed Legends, ⁓ it's I know it's my first game, so it's probably got I've I'm biased and it's got a special place in my heart, but there's ⁓ I think there's a problem with that game. It came out, I think it came out a week after Elden Ring and a week or two weeks before GT's Gran Turismo 7. So we we were in between the two biggest games of the year. And one of them was a racing game. So it it got forgotten and I'm sure if people gave it a chance it it's a great, great game.
speaker-0: I completely agree, Louie. I think it's ⁓ way underrated that game. I loved Grid Legends, yeah.
speaker-1: And I'm not saying that 'cause it's my first game.
speaker-0: No, and I'm not saying it for any other reason than I love the grid franchise and I thought it was a really great evolution of the the grid franchise. I love the handling model of grid and yeah, the whole drive to survive stuff. I was just people talking about the new ⁓ clutch, the new and I was w I was like, it feels like Grid Legends but with r real time characters instead of video characters. It reminded me of Grid Legends so much.
speaker-1: Yeah, it feels they wanted to do some sort of great Forza Horizon with different categories and everything, so I'm very excited for that I think.
speaker-0: Yeah, me too. ⁓ so yeah, so so sounds like, you know, across grid and and WLC you've got a really good opportunity to learn and and grow and kind of develop into a you know a ⁓ into the role. ⁓ and then you move on. You move on from from Codemasters to to Maverick. ⁓ sorry, to third kind games, yeah. ⁓ yes, how did that how did that come about?
speaker-1: Well, ⁓ someone from Third King Game contacted me, said, Look, we're looking for a senior level designer and your profile's very interesting 'cause we're making a game that's gonna be about racing. ⁓ it's not gonna be cars, but it's gonna be different. So we had a first talk. I wanna say about twenty twenty three, but it didn't lead to anything. I I told him basically that ⁓ well it was a great offer, but I'm I'm very attached to Codemasters. I was in a good place. I felt like I was like not necessarily a junior le yeah mo junior anymore, but ⁓ I was still growing, I was in a good place, so I didn't want to move. And I was in a good place, so I stayed there. but then he contacted me a year later when I feel like It's been four years at Codemasters and I love the team and I feel like I I could learn more like I said. But I also felt ⁓ I'm not a junior anymore and you know, they're not necessarily considering a a a promotion, so I understand that as well. It's n you know, that's how companies work. So I had a few discussions, the yeah, they had a very nice offer and The game was about yeah, making this mountain bike game in open world, so it was like Forza but for bikes. And I thought I'd love to dabble into open world. I thought that that that's the thing that really got me, I think. That I thought if I can make a racing game but open world, that gives me more skills to put on my CV that puts like to even yeah, consider new experiences. So Yeah, I I agreed to it and I just made the jump. And ⁓ I think it's been great. I think we're ⁓ on this ⁓ on this game we've been ⁓ very short on the level design side there. I've I think I've been the permanent one. There's been another level designer who then stopped being on the project because they needed him on something else. ⁓ and ⁓ someone else joined after ⁓ from ⁓ Matt Jones' team. So I think I've I've I've made most of like seven sixty, seventy percent of the level. So I'm very scared of I'm I'm like I'm I'm always thinking, have I done a good job, have I not? I think that one I'm I'm more ⁓ yeah, worried about I would say because I went from a very big structure of fifteen level designer to hello here, take take your pick, make your choice. And Yeah, ⁓ I think I'm in that period now where I'm approaching six years of experience and I'm really wondering where do I need to ⁓ reinforce my knowledge. I think. So yeah, I made the jump. I think we've done a great game and it's been in early access now for a while, so people can experience it and I'm looking at the at the feedback. I'm looking at all of it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, well it's also about 'cause like you say, you've gone from, you know, working with a large team of level designers with this interesting kind of veteran, you know, rookie structure, and then you're kind of thrown into not only on your own, but also a very different type of level design experience, right? Considering the whole what is you know, how many ha square kilometres of the of the of the world. How is that present how have you adapted your skills to that?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, that was ⁓ quite a jump. It was I think when I arrived there was this other level designer there, he was already researching trails, so he had started some kind of ⁓ research on the tools, on on what we should use, on what ⁓ we should do. And he had a very technical mind, I think. He was really going straight into Technically, how are we making the trails? And I thought we need a process. We need to know where are the trails, where what how do you get to the trails? How do you fast travel to it? How do you get to it on you know on your wheels? w what what's the world? What's the experience? What's ⁓ what does it look like? Is Maverick's ⁓ some sort of festival like for the horizon? Is it not? Is it a world? Is it a bike park called Maverick's bike park? Is it you know so I I was trying to make a a world building more sort of experience because I was thinking we need to make sure we have the processes and that they're in place so that we level designers know how to make the levels, but also how to tell game designers, how to tell programmers and artists how to make those things. ⁓ so yeah, it's been difficult. ⁓ I won't lie, it's been I've been thrown in the deep end, but I had all this knowledge from Codemasters that I just applied at first kind of mechanically and then I realised why we were doing this or that or the other and I just adjusted it to our new project. And ⁓ I think I think the team's been great at helping me. ⁓ the art director, the the game designer, the other level designer, they've all had an impact. ⁓ they've given me feedback, they've given me a lot of help, so I think we've done a good job.
speaker-0: And just from this conversation, Louis, it sounds like you're someone that l kinda likes to jump into those kind of challenges and just get going, right? And just face ⁓ down and and and
speaker-1: Yeah, I I think I think that's probably one of my flow. I I do not think before I jump into a challenge, I just go in the challenge and then figure out what do I need to do.
speaker-0: I'm not sure I'd call that a flaw, Louie. I'd call that a a a p a superpower. I think there's plenty of people that hold themselves back from doing that 'cause they're too afraid to to make that jump, right, and to take that risk.
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ I think so far in my life I feel like if I don't think before the challenge, then once I'm in it I just have to figure it out. That's when if you're already in the challenge, there's there's nothing that can stop you from trying. And if you fail, just try again.
speaker-0: I love that. I mean, as someone that's also moved countries for a job and like just rolled up my sleeves and gone, Okay, I guess I'm figuring this out you know, I can empathize with that a lot. I think I think it's easy to paralyse yourself on what might happen and sometimes it's better to just go for it and see what does happen.
speaker-1: I feel like if you if you stop yourself you just lose the opportunity and I'm sure not every opportunity in life is up for the take in, but so far I just prefer just thinking after.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. No, I I I like I say I empathise a lot with that. I think I'm very similar. ⁓ so so yeah, so so you've been been at that kind i w Why level design, Louis? Why is level design you know, you went to college, you sounds like you got a broad ⁓ exposure to to design and different types of design. Why did level design draw you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think to be fair it's it started I could talk about that. I it started with sound design, really. I was into music as well. I've I've learned some instruments. I've ⁓ I wanted to be a DJ at some point as well. and I thought composing music was something a hobby I liked as well in high school and and college. And I developed while I was in college because there was nobody in my everybody wanted to do like game design, level design, programming, art environment, 3D, but nobody wanted to do sound design. There was probably another guy, so we were two out of a hundred and fifty people who knew kind of how to use a software like FL Studio or Appleton and how to make some sound design and oscillators. So Yeah, I just became one of the guys in in in my uni where if we needed to make a game, we could ask Louie to make some sound effects or s some background music, something. I'm absolutely not good at it, but I knew how to do these things. And ⁓ I liked it. At first I wanted to also go into sound design. I was just doing game design because I liked video games. And I realize I think that what I like about sound design and game design is that I want to impact how the player feels. So I thought the best way to impact the feeling directly is level design, because from level design you can direct with the blockout, you can direct where art is going, where the light is coming from, what you know, ⁓ if you want them to be in a very s small corridor and then they're oppressed or if they're in an open area, if there's a big vista, if you want them to see something very beautiful, very cool, a wow effect. And that's things you can get through music, but you can as a level designer tell where the music is coming. You can do rhythm games, you can do so I just felt like level design was the key to all of these areas in one go.
speaker-0: Yeah, I like that. A what a way to kind of direct the player experience across, you know, multiple disciplines and yeah, and shape the game.
speaker-1: Exactly. You don't you don't control every area, but if you have an idea, you can help the artists shape that idea. You can help the programmer and make the like the the scripts. If you wanted a tree to you know, you just make the block and the programmer can make it better, but yeah, y you can touch everything and and even sound.
speaker-0: Yeah. And that that's a very y it sounds like you're coming at it from a very sort of collaborative angle, right? You're kind of excited about helping, you know, shape the player experience by working with the other departments to to build something fun and and and fa is that is that you, Louis? Are you someone that enjoys, you know, kind of collaboration and and working with other folks?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I've tried doing i an indie game alone and I think I struggle with that. I really like to put myself in perspective all the time. And it's way better when there's someone to talk to. Because I can ask them questions about how I am, about how I've done things, I can ask for help, I can help someone as well, shape something if I have a cool idea. So It's always been yeah, I I I like companies where I know I'm not alone in a team and I can just have other people that we can make something better together.
speaker-0: Hm. Yeah, that's that's interesting. I I think I'm similar, although I think mine or or originates in a crushing lack of self confidence, right? Like to me that the collaboration part was like, Hey, it's great because at least we're all carrying the weight, you know, like and if I'm a self-
speaker-1: Probably that as well with me.
speaker-0: Yeah, I wonder if that's also yeah, there's something beneficial about having people around you, right, that can shoulder the load and come up with good ideas and, you know, help make everything better. It's not just all on you to make it good and, you know, be the face of it.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I do I do understand and I I I I am the same with that where I do like the fact that it's not just me as well. ⁓ you know, probably 'cause you can hide behind it saying it's the level design, it's it's not just me.
speaker-0: Well, and I think there's nothing more validating than kind of helping someone else make something great because then you're like, ⁓ I you know, what I did was was clearly good because it Exactly, yeah. As opposed to when you do it by yourself and you're like, I don't know, is it any good? I I hope so. ⁓ yeah, there's something about that. Yeah. ⁓ if you weren't making games, Louie, what would you be doing?
speaker-1: Because it's part of what they do. ⁓ I'd probably be a therapist. I think it's it's it ties with the with game design actually because ⁓ as a game designer you're trying to be in the mind of a player in what they're doing. ⁓ tr keep them in the state of flow, you know. And for some reason it sounds like psychology has a bit of that, a bit of
speaker-0: Interesting.
speaker-1: understanding the mind of someone else, helping them with that and it feels like you can do it through games in a way you can ⁓ alleviate their mental load every day with games and that's that's something I'd do, I think. And yeah, psychology.
speaker-0: I love that, yeah. I mean I I think a big part of that is empathy, right? You know, when you're when you're a designer you need empathy for the player and the player experience and I think that's a big part of ther you know, being a psych psychiatrist or a therapist, like say. Interesting. Yeah, that's cool. and and you know, you you mentioned so you you're kinda younger brothers that play, like how do they relate to your career? Do they you are they excited by it? Do they talk to you about it? Like do any of your family members kind of relate to to what you do?
speaker-1: That's how I see it, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ they have in the past. they have asked me how things were done. ⁓ we've played my previous games like Greed Legends and WRC with them. ⁓ Maverick's not too much alre yet, but I'd like to play it with them, see what they think of it. ⁓ That's definitely something I wanna do more with them. ⁓ but as a general Yeah, as a general rule everybody's been asking my dad's been asking what I've done. He loves racing games, so he's been asking about the two E WRC and grids specifically, but yeah, and ⁓ I've done a talk at my old school because my mom knows one of the teachers so I I've been able to help with the high school students that are wondering about going to yeah video game industry to the video game video game industry so yeah I've I've got people interested in it. on my family so I can talk about video games.
speaker-0: That's great. Yeah, and I mean you mentioned your dad kinda helping you find Rubikha in the first place. Sounds like you've, you know, had a very supportive
speaker-1: Yeah, my parents were invested. They were behind me.
speaker-0: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Not I think, you know, plenty of parents have been like, Wait, you want to do what? And it's nice to yeah, parents that are inv invested, that's that's great. ⁓ and you know, obviously, yeah, racing games is a you know, is a is a niche. It's a niche that I love, but it is definitely, you know, a a a genre, right, a type of genre. ⁓ if you could if you could take what you've learned and you know and smash it against a genre that you've not worked in, what would that be?
speaker-1: I think I'd like to make horror games. That's one thing I'm I've re I'm really into horror ⁓ and and I wonder if there's a way to make a horror like racing experience somehow somehow. Because yeah, that's that's something that would be yeah difficult to imagine. So I'm wondering if there's something there that could be made.
speaker-0: ⁓ you got my gears turning now, Louie. I'm suddenly picturing like false you know, a view out of a viewport. I mean, ⁓ what's that game? ⁓ there's a game where you've got this station wagon, like American station wagon, and you're trying to make it through this crazy environment. What's that called? Pacific Drive. But that's that's got some s kind of creepy stuff in it. But I think a lot of the creepy stuff happens outside the car. That's a really cool idea. I love the idea of you know, maybe What you see through the windscreen, is that real or is it not? You know, and and trying to yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, there is something there. Playing with the the players' vision, making them sweat.
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. We're not sure which way to turn. ⁓ that's a cool yeah, that would be a fun a fun opportunity to kind of combine what you've learned so far with with you know, with a with a passion that you have and and what what is it about horror games that draws you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I don't I've never been able to answer that question. I feel like ⁓ I I don't necessarily like to be scared in real life, but in a video game I feel safe enough to do it. Like ⁓ f something weird, for example, my partner loves haunted houses, going to you know, the theme parks, haunted houses where there's actors scaring you. I absolutely hate it. I I cannot do it. I I I am really scared of it. But I absolutely love Outlast, I I I love horror games, Resident Evil, all of that. Whereas in front of the screen she is scared of it. Huh. And I feel like I do not understand this because I'm like, this is a screen, it's fine, it's not gonna jump out of the screen. Whereas an actor is in front of you. So it's different. It's literally a live experience. And yeah, for her it's it's more ⁓ fun to be
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: frightened by real people and by a haunted house and experience in front of you. Whereas she's very scared of of a screen and and I'm the opposite. So I I'd like to dig into that I think 'cause I I I don't understand why yeah the the the horror experience is different for the both of us. I wonder why.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, that'd be a good one to to apply some therapy to and try and dig into
speaker-1: I wonder what's what's going on. I know for me that ⁓ my mom introduced me to Resident Evil One when I was ten years old on PS1. ⁓ so that's probably where the horror stems from. I started with those.
speaker-0: Yeah. So so both your parents were gamers then?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My mum she was fascinated by horror games. She was scared of them, but she she was fascinated. I think there was like this I'm scared but I wanna look. And ⁓ she was telling me to not be too much in front, of course she was mm conscious I'm ten years old and I did have nightmares. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ she got me hooked and ⁓ later on Silent Hill came out, Silent Hill 2, 3 The room. Resident Evil I ⁓ it was her favorite ⁓ license, so I continued that one as well. ⁓ one of my favorite two. And then I I I went into more indie ⁓ horror games that came out that was Outlasted, that was groundbreaking as well. ⁓ what can I think of recently? That was good. I really liked The ⁓ what's it called? Soma? That's great. That was amazing as an experience. Yeah. So ⁓ and my my partner likes horror games even though she prefers when I play. So we we keep we can keep doing that. That's great.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Great. Yeah, yeah. It's a good thing to share and I I guess it sounds like you kind of enjoy the tension and the the stress. I I'm the same. I love I my wife and I both love horror games, so yeah, there's something about that tension.
speaker-1: It's a different pacing, like 'cause you can there's a clear make something fast or make something slow. There's there's so many different elements of it that is way different from a racing game and I'd love to go into that and learn more about those experiences as well.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. ⁓ I'm conscious of time, so as we kind of wind this down. ⁓ you know, making video games can be quite consuming, right? It can you know for some, it is for me. I I I'm curious how you reflect on that, Louis. Like it is you've you know, you you several years into your career now. Do you feel that video games, making video games or being a video game developer defines who you are? Or is it, you know, just one aspect of you as a as a human?
speaker-1: think it's one aspect. ⁓ it's not my whole life. I absolutely love it. But I also love theme parks. I love horror. I love horror movies. I love ⁓ metal. I love going to festivals and gigs. there's I love tabletop roleplay games. I do a lot of the forever DM of my group. and yeah I just love different Aspects of myself and I feel like they all feed into each other. Sometimes there's principle of game design that I've learned and I've applied into the TTRPG roles and you know D D and all of that. But also I've applied the opposite of making maps to level design. same with ⁓ theme parks. ⁓ I I I studied how they were made, ⁓ how Disneyland was made and for the for the people, for everything. I just find it really interesting and I feel everything feeds into each other, but I'm not defined just by being a game developer. ⁓ but it's definitely something that I want to stay in and grow in. It's ⁓ I I really love doing that.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, you fet it sounds like you found a place that, you know, fits who you are as a person and, you know, gives you correct satisfaction and doesn't dominate who you are, but is a you know, a a a powerful part of of who you are today.
speaker-1: I'm in a sweet spot where ⁓ I I I have so much to learn, I think. But I I don't press it, I don't pressure it, it's not all at all at the same time. I'll just let ⁓ myself be guided by what's in front of me.
speaker-0: That's a very healthy way of looking at it, Louie. I wish I looked at it that way. ⁓ it it dominates too much of my personality sometimes. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ great great conversation. Thank you for your time. Fascinating journey. I mean, you know, as someone that's transplanted themselves from their home country to another country and, you know, found a a a way to, you know, to build a career, that's that's huge. And ⁓ I'm excited to you know, I'm excited for Mavericks. I'm excited for for what you do next.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, thank you very much. And thank you for your questions. I think th that was very insightful. It was help I think it helped me just define also ⁓ who I am.
speaker-0: There's a little bit of therapist that for me, back to you, there is.
speaker-1: Thank you very much for that.
speaker-0: Thanks.
