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I was recently at the Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam,
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where a lot of interesting people involved in the regenerative space came to talk about the future of Region Ag.
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I was given the opportunity to talk to some of them backstage and ask them a few questions.
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If you're here listening to this,
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you probably already know all about the amazing potential of Region Ag for soil health,
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biodiversity,
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water cycles for...
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resilience and so much more.
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And so these conversations are not so much about what Region Ag is,
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but more about where do we go from here?
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How do we speed up the global transition to Region Ag?
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How do we make it?
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Not the exception,
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but the norm.
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My first guest in this mini-series is Michael Kavanagh,
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a farmer who spent the last 10 years successfully transitioning his almost
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700 hectare farm.
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to an advanced regenerative system.
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This episode was made in partnership with Soul Capital.
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I am your host,
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Raphael,
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and this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
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Hi Michael,
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the first question I wanted to ask you is quite simply,
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how would you define regenerative agriculture?
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So defining regenerative agriculture is a really difficult thing to do.
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However,
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the overwhelming theme that all of us,
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whether you're just stepping onto the regen journey or you've been on it for years,
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is essentially reversing the decline that humans have undeniably put this planet into.
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So it's...
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capturing more carbon,
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putting it into your soils,
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helping with nature recovery.
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If at first,
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in the first instance,
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we stop damaging the planet,
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that's a really good start.
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If we then start to heal the planet,
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then that is what I would define as a regenerative system.
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So healing instead of damaging or regenerating instead of degrading.
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What are the benefits that farmers can expect from transitioning to regenerative agriculture?
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Sure,
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so I've now been farming regeneratively on my farm for 10 years and the net result of that is my farm has become far more resilient.
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So this year in the UK we've had one of the wettest winters on record,
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it's been awful for growing crops.
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But actually my home farm has given us excellent yields with minimal input.
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So we've had
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10 tonnes to the hectare in our feed wheat with 160 kilograms of nitrogen.
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and no fungicides,
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no insecticides.
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I could go on and on.
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A farm that we've only been on for two years has given us a yield of six tonnes to the hectare.
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So four tonnes to the hectare less,
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that's basically 800 pounds a hectare less income for the farmer.
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It's also cost me more to grow that crop.
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And that's because those soils haven't got the resilience in them that I've built in over 10 years onto the home farm.
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So farmers can expect less input,
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more output.
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output.
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And the other benefit on the side of it,
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the happy consequence of it,
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is we've now got biodiversity thriving on our farm.
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I never set out to improve biodiversity,
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but the fact of the matter is biodiversity is now measurably improving.
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I have bird ringers come in and catch and put identification rings on the birds on our farm.
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We've got feeding stations,
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we do thermal imaging of birds.
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A few weeks ago,
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we were catching barn owls and wringing them from owl boxes.
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And that's a happy consequence of the farming system.
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And actually,
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that's great.
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It's really good for everyone on the farm to see.
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It's really nice to know that you're doing something for nature alongside producing high quantities of high quality food.
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Listening to you here,
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it just sounds amazing,
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right?
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You have these birds and biodiversity coming back onto the farm.
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You have...
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less inputs,
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but more outputs,
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which I guess means higher profits.
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So if it's so great,
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if it's so much better,
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why are so few farmers transitioning to region ag at present time?
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What is holding back the other farmers?
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Yeah,
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I think the main hurdles to transitioning to regenerative agriculture are,
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well,
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the big one for me is a mindset change.
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I'm fortunate,
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I'm not from a farming background,
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so I've got no...
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I've got no parents looking over my shoulder saying,
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oh,
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I wouldn't do it like that.
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I have freedom to express myself as a first generation farmer.
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And actually,
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that's a big hurdle,
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certainly in the UK of a lot of farmers.
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And it's very much a mindset change.
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But the popularity of regenerative farming and farming more sustainably is certainly growing at a rapid pace.
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You've only got to look at conferences such as Groundswell in the UK,
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which has gone from...
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200 people 10 years ago to 8,000 people over two days that it is now.
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Actually that mindset is changing and the more farmers go out there and tell other farmers what they're doing then the better because as we've already mentioned the farmers listen to other farmers and they learn from other farmers more than anyone else.
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I certainly have done in my journey.
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Yeah,
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so the mindset change is a massive one,
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I hear you.
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But what about the economic aspect?
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I often hear that it takes a lot of investments to transition and that could be a big hurdle.
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And also some farmers might be afraid of a potential J-curve where their yields and profits drop a little bit at first before it goes back up.
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So yeah,
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what do you think about that?
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Yeah,
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sure.
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And
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I said,
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as I was talking earlier,
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that...
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Rome wasn't built in a day,
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there's no silver bullet to this.
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However,
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it doesn't have to be done with a J curve,
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as you say.
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And actually,
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the important thing is easing yourself into a regenerative system.
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Don't just go out and buy a zero-till drill because people think that zero-till is the be-all and end-all.
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It's really not.
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You can be doing lots of other things that just slowly transitions your current system into a more regenerative one.
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And by doing things slowly,
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you can ensure that the financial...
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You know,
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you can ensure that you keep a grip on the financials of your farm going forward.
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So it is a tricky one and it's about knowledge sharing and going slowly with things and seeing what works for you,
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what works for your mindset and what works for your farm.
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My mindset's changed massively over the last 10 years,
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but that's been a gradual process.
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10 years ago,
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if you'd have asked me if I'd have been farming the way I'm farming now,
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I'd have laughed at you and said,
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no way in a million years,
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but here I am.
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The climate has started to change already noticeably and we know that it's going to change a lot more in the coming decades.
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Whether it's with extended dry periods or really wet periods,
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it's going to be an issue for farming.
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And
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I'm wondering how you perceive the importance of resilience as a farmer.
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Yeah,
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resilience is absolutely crucial in farming and resilience of our soils is crucial.
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You know,
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to speak on a...
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personal level with our farm at home or the farm that I manage,
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our organic matter has increased.
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You know we've gone from two and a half percent as an average organic matter to 3.25 percent over a six year period and what that does is for every 0.1 percent increase in organic matter that increases my water holding capacity by
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16,000 liters per hectare.
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So do the maths on that quickly that's over 100,000 liters of extra water holding capacity per hectare that I've got.
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That means that my soils in a drought year will hold on to that water and make those crops grow and make those crops yield more.
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It also means that my infiltration rates are far far far far better so that when we have a wet year like we've just had my soils will get rid of that water and the crops and the roots will stay in an oxygenated soil so they can still grow.
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So you know as a result it's another thing that's really shown this year the resilience of my farm how well
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Wheats and things have yielded on the farm is a reflection on how I've built resilience into that farm.
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As I've said,
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the farm that we've only been on for two years,
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results off that farm have been pretty terrible in comparison.
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And it's a really black and white picture of how I have already built resilience into the farm and how important it is going forward because there's no doubt that our climate is changing.
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We're getting more and more extreme weather events year on year.
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Amazing.
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That's really encouraging to hear.
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What would be your number one message to policymakers in order to support a transition to regenerative agriculture and to support the farmers in that transition?
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I think my number one message,
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and it's a key theme which keeps coming out,
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is that farmers will listen and learn most by talking to other farmers.
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So implement things which...
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gets farmers who are already implementing regenerative practices on their farms,
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get them in front of other farmers,
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encourage events such as Groundswell in the UK,
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but encourage that knowledge exchange because forcing things down farmers'throats generally makes them dig their heels in,
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whereas just knowledge exchange from other farmers I think is the most valuable thing.
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and i've learned everything i know i've learned from other farmers and and you know i'm fortunate that i've i've got a fantastic network in the uk of other farmers who are on the end of the phone or or a zoom meeting or whatever where we knock ideas and share ideas and and and importantly share the failures as well as the successes so
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um implementing knowledge exchange i think is is really where policy makers ought to be going um there's also an argument to say that um
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Implementing,
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such as we've done in the UK,
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the government has implemented subsidies to try and encourage farmers to dip their toe into more regenerative practices.
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So,
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for example,
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we get paid to not use insecticides,
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we get paid to companion crop,
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we get paid to grow cover crops.
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And actually that's a really good incentive to start making farmers do things that they perhaps otherwise wouldn't have done.
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I hope this message will come across to the right ears.
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It's really the whole point of this podcast.
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It's to share important information like this with as many people as possible and hope that it helps the whole movement move forward.
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There's a common narrative that sort of pits nature versus agriculture.
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And I was wondering what you think about that.
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We do often pitch nature versus agriculture.
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However,
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what I've...
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proved and what many other people have proved and and and farmers have always done is nature can thrive alongside food production um and we know that with an ever expanding population food production is really crucial and um you know nature
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and food production can thrive alongside each other so uh fine if there's areas that that of ground that aren't suited to food production that's fine you know put them to nature recovery
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However,
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as I said,
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what I've proved on my farm,
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not using insecticides,
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starting to make my soil thrive,
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our soil is everything and all biodiversity starts with the soil.
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We've seen bird numbers increasing on our farm and we can back that up with data,
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which is really,
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really important.
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So if the whole planet started farming that way,
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then it would go an awfully long way to
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to nature recovery.
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For me,
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having the opportunity to talk to people like yourself,
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to farmers who have managed to become more resilient,
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to produce better products,
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to lower their use of inputs,
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and especially harmful ones like chemical inputs,
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who have increased profitability and done all of that while regenerating nature,
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ecosystems,
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biodiversity,
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all of that.
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It really fills me with hope.
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So thank you so much for what you're doing and for being such a great example.
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I have just one last question.
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Why did you accept to come as a speaker to this event here,
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the
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Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam?
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What do you hope to achieve?
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Yeah,
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I came to this event last year and it's a really unique event because it gets farmers and also big food in the same room,
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which is a really interesting event.
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which makes it unique and actually we're all sort of heading in the same direction.
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You know that there is a demand for us as a human race to start cleaning our act up and yet we're all doing that on very different levels but it's important that you know we are all heading in the same direction and
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I think often farmers will be the first to criticize or chastise big food.
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But if we get in the same room with them and talk to them and understand each other more,
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then that's got to be a good thing.
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And the other great thing about this event is the networking as well.
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Seeing a lot of familiar faces there today is great,
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but also the meeting of new faces and really useful contacts is a really,
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really valuable part of being here today.
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Fantastic.
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Thank you very much.
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No problem.
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Amazing,
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what a cool conversation.
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I've absolutely loved it.
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And it's so uplifting to be talking to people like Michael,
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who are the living proof that it's possible and that it makes sense,
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that you can farm in a way that instead of destroying and degrading,
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you can actually regenerate ecosystems.
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be more profitable in the process and bring back biodiversity and be more resilient in the face of climate change.
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It just makes so much sense.
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And the fact that it's possible that people like him are proving that you can do it,
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it just fills me with hope for the future.
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So thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
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I hope it was valuable to you.
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And if you'd like to support my work and this podcast,
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you can do that in just five seconds.
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Whichever streaming platform you're using right now to listen to this episode.
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just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow button.
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It really makes a big difference for me.
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So thank you so much in advance and see you soon.
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I was recently at the Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam,
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where a lot of interesting people involved in the regenerative space came to talk about the future of Region Ag.
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I was given the opportunity to talk to some of them backstage and ask them a few questions.
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If you're here listening to this,
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you probably already know all about the amazing potential of Region Ag for soil health,
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biodiversity,
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water cycles for...
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resilience and so much more.
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And so these conversations are not so much about what Region Ag is,
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but more about where do we go from here?
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How do we speed up the global transition to Region Ag?
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How do we make it?
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Not the exception,
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but the norm.
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My first guest in this mini-series is Michael Kavanagh,
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a farmer who spent the last 10 years successfully transitioning his almost
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700 hectare farm.
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to an advanced regenerative system.
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This episode was made in partnership with Soul Capital.
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I am your host,
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Raphael,
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and this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
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Hi Michael,
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the first question I wanted to ask you is quite simply,
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how would you define regenerative agriculture?
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So defining regenerative agriculture is a really difficult thing to do.
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However,
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the overwhelming theme that all of us,
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whether you're just stepping onto the regen journey or you've been on it for years,
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is essentially reversing the decline that humans have undeniably put this planet into.
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So it's...
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capturing more carbon,
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putting it into your soils,
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helping with nature recovery.
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If at first,
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in the first instance,
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we stop damaging the planet,
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that's a really good start.
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If we then start to heal the planet,
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then that is what I would define as a regenerative system.
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So healing instead of damaging or regenerating instead of degrading.
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What are the benefits that farmers can expect from transitioning to regenerative agriculture?
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Sure,
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so I've now been farming regeneratively on my farm for 10 years and the net result of that is my farm has become far more resilient.
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So this year in the UK we've had one of the wettest winters on record,
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it's been awful for growing crops.
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But actually my home farm has given us excellent yields with minimal input.
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So we've had
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10 tonnes to the hectare in our feed wheat with 160 kilograms of nitrogen.
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and no fungicides,
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no insecticides.
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I could go on and on.
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A farm that we've only been on for two years has given us a yield of six tonnes to the hectare.
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So four tonnes to the hectare less,
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that's basically 800 pounds a hectare less income for the farmer.
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It's also cost me more to grow that crop.
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And that's because those soils haven't got the resilience in them that I've built in over 10 years onto the home farm.
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So farmers can expect less input,
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more output.
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output.
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And the other benefit on the side of it,
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the happy consequence of it,
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is we've now got biodiversity thriving on our farm.
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I never set out to improve biodiversity,
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but the fact of the matter is biodiversity is now measurably improving.
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I have bird ringers come in and catch and put identification rings on the birds on our farm.
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We've got feeding stations,
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we do thermal imaging of birds.
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A few weeks ago,
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we were catching barn owls and wringing them from owl boxes.
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And that's a happy consequence of the farming system.
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And actually,
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that's great.
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It's really good for everyone on the farm to see.
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It's really nice to know that you're doing something for nature alongside producing high quantities of high quality food.
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Listening to you here,
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it just sounds amazing,
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right?
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You have these birds and biodiversity coming back onto the farm.
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You have...
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less inputs,
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but more outputs,
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which I guess means higher profits.
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So if it's so great,
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if it's so much better,
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why are so few farmers transitioning to region ag at present time?
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What is holding back the other farmers?
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Yeah,
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I think the main hurdles to transitioning to regenerative agriculture are,
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well,
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the big one for me is a mindset change.
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I'm fortunate,
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I'm not from a farming background,
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so I've got no...
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I've got no parents looking over my shoulder saying,
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oh,
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I wouldn't do it like that.
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I have freedom to express myself as a first generation farmer.
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And actually,
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that's a big hurdle,
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certainly in the UK of a lot of farmers.
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And it's very much a mindset change.
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But the popularity of regenerative farming and farming more sustainably is certainly growing at a rapid pace.
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You've only got to look at conferences such as Groundswell in the UK,
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which has gone from...
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200 people 10 years ago to 8,000 people over two days that it is now.
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Actually that mindset is changing and the more farmers go out there and tell other farmers what they're doing then the better because as we've already mentioned the farmers listen to other farmers and they learn from other farmers more than anyone else.
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I certainly have done in my journey.
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Yeah,
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so the mindset change is a massive one,
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I hear you.
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But what about the economic aspect?
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I often hear that it takes a lot of investments to transition and that could be a big hurdle.
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And also some farmers might be afraid of a potential J-curve where their yields and profits drop a little bit at first before it goes back up.
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So yeah,
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what do you think about that?
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Yeah,
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sure.
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And
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I said,
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as I was talking earlier,
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that...
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Rome wasn't built in a day,
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there's no silver bullet to this.
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However,
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it doesn't have to be done with a J curve,
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as you say.
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And actually,
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the important thing is easing yourself into a regenerative system.
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Don't just go out and buy a zero-till drill because people think that zero-till is the be-all and end-all.
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It's really not.
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You can be doing lots of other things that just slowly transitions your current system into a more regenerative one.
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And by doing things slowly,
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you can ensure that the financial...
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You know,
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you can ensure that you keep a grip on the financials of your farm going forward.
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So it is a tricky one and it's about knowledge sharing and going slowly with things and seeing what works for you,
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what works for your mindset and what works for your farm.
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My mindset's changed massively over the last 10 years,
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but that's been a gradual process.
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10 years ago,
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if you'd have asked me if I'd have been farming the way I'm farming now,
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I'd have laughed at you and said,
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no way in a million years,
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but here I am.
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The climate has started to change already noticeably and we know that it's going to change a lot more in the coming decades.
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Whether it's with extended dry periods or really wet periods,
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it's going to be an issue for farming.
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And
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I'm wondering how you perceive the importance of resilience as a farmer.
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Yeah,
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resilience is absolutely crucial in farming and resilience of our soils is crucial.
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You know,
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to speak on a...
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personal level with our farm at home or the farm that I manage,
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our organic matter has increased.
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You know we've gone from two and a half percent as an average organic matter to 3.25 percent over a six year period and what that does is for every 0.1 percent increase in organic matter that increases my water holding capacity by
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16,000 liters per hectare.
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So do the maths on that quickly that's over 100,000 liters of extra water holding capacity per hectare that I've got.
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That means that my soils in a drought year will hold on to that water and make those crops grow and make those crops yield more.
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It also means that my infiltration rates are far far far far better so that when we have a wet year like we've just had my soils will get rid of that water and the crops and the roots will stay in an oxygenated soil so they can still grow.
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So you know as a result it's another thing that's really shown this year the resilience of my farm how well
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Wheats and things have yielded on the farm is a reflection on how I've built resilience into that farm.
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As I've said,
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the farm that we've only been on for two years,
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results off that farm have been pretty terrible in comparison.
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And it's a really black and white picture of how I have already built resilience into the farm and how important it is going forward because there's no doubt that our climate is changing.
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We're getting more and more extreme weather events year on year.
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Amazing.
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That's really encouraging to hear.
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What would be your number one message to policymakers in order to support a transition to regenerative agriculture and to support the farmers in that transition?
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I think my number one message,
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and it's a key theme which keeps coming out,
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is that farmers will listen and learn most by talking to other farmers.
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So implement things which...
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gets farmers who are already implementing regenerative practices on their farms,
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get them in front of other farmers,
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encourage events such as Groundswell in the UK,
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but encourage that knowledge exchange because forcing things down farmers'throats generally makes them dig their heels in,
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whereas just knowledge exchange from other farmers I think is the most valuable thing.
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and i've learned everything i know i've learned from other farmers and and you know i'm fortunate that i've i've got a fantastic network in the uk of other farmers who are on the end of the phone or or a zoom meeting or whatever where we knock ideas and share ideas and and and importantly share the failures as well as the successes so
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um implementing knowledge exchange i think is is really where policy makers ought to be going um there's also an argument to say that um
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Implementing,
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such as we've done in the UK,
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the government has implemented subsidies to try and encourage farmers to dip their toe into more regenerative practices.
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So,
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for example,
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we get paid to not use insecticides,
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we get paid to companion crop,
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we get paid to grow cover crops.
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And actually that's a really good incentive to start making farmers do things that they perhaps otherwise wouldn't have done.
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I hope this message will come across to the right ears.
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It's really the whole point of this podcast.
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It's to share important information like this with as many people as possible and hope that it helps the whole movement move forward.
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There's a common narrative that sort of pits nature versus agriculture.
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And I was wondering what you think about that.
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We do often pitch nature versus agriculture.
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However,
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what I've...
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proved and what many other people have proved and and and farmers have always done is nature can thrive alongside food production um and we know that with an ever expanding population food production is really crucial and um you know nature
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and food production can thrive alongside each other so uh fine if there's areas that that of ground that aren't suited to food production that's fine you know put them to nature recovery
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However,
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as I said,
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what I've proved on my farm,
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not using insecticides,
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starting to make my soil thrive,
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our soil is everything and all biodiversity starts with the soil.
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We've seen bird numbers increasing on our farm and we can back that up with data,
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which is really,
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really important.
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So if the whole planet started farming that way,
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then it would go an awfully long way to
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to nature recovery.
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For me,
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having the opportunity to talk to people like yourself,
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to farmers who have managed to become more resilient,
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to produce better products,
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to lower their use of inputs,
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and especially harmful ones like chemical inputs,
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who have increased profitability and done all of that while regenerating nature,
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ecosystems,
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biodiversity,
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all of that.
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It really fills me with hope.
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So thank you so much for what you're doing and for being such a great example.
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I have just one last question.
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Why did you accept to come as a speaker to this event here,
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the
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Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam?
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What do you hope to achieve?
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Yeah,
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I came to this event last year and it's a really unique event because it gets farmers and also big food in the same room,
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which is a really interesting event.
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which makes it unique and actually we're all sort of heading in the same direction.
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You know that there is a demand for us as a human race to start cleaning our act up and yet we're all doing that on very different levels but it's important that you know we are all heading in the same direction and
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I think often farmers will be the first to criticize or chastise big food.
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But if we get in the same room with them and talk to them and understand each other more,
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then that's got to be a good thing.
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And the other great thing about this event is the networking as well.
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Seeing a lot of familiar faces there today is great,
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but also the meeting of new faces and really useful contacts is a really,
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really valuable part of being here today.
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Fantastic.
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Thank you very much.
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No problem.
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Amazing,
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what a cool conversation.
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I've absolutely loved it.
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And it's so uplifting to be talking to people like Michael,
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who are the living proof that it's possible and that it makes sense,
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that you can farm in a way that instead of destroying and degrading,
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you can actually regenerate ecosystems.
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be more profitable in the process and bring back biodiversity and be more resilient in the face of climate change.
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It just makes so much sense.
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And the fact that it's possible that people like him are proving that you can do it,
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it just fills me with hope for the future.
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So thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
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I hope it was valuable to you.
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And if you'd like to support my work and this podcast,
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you can do that in just five seconds.
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Whichever streaming platform you're using right now to listen to this episode.
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just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow button.
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It really makes a big difference for me.
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So thank you so much in advance and see you soon.
