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Frank Cilluffo: Welcome to CyberFocus from the McCrary Institute, where we explore the people and ideas shaping
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Frank Cilluffo: and defending our digital world. I'm your host, Frank Cilluffo, and have a real privilege
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Frank Cilluffo: to sit down today with Kirsten. Todd Kiersten is president at Wondros, which is a
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Frank Cilluffo: creative firm focused on social change and policy change. She previously served at the Office
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Frank Cilluffo: of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP, at the White House as a staffer on the
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Frank Cilluffo: U.S. senate Senate Homeland Security Committee, working counterterrorism and homeland security issues, and most recently
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Frank Cilluffo: as chief of staff at cisa, the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. Kirsten's known to
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Frank Cilluffo: all in the field, the bright light for so many years trying to move these
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Frank Cilluffo: issues forward. So, Kirsten, really excited to sit down with you today. Thank you, Frank.
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Kiersten Todt: It's great to be with you. You know, when we look at cyber issues and
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Frank Cilluffo: where we are today, obviously there's much we've observed and you played a key role
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Frank Cilluffo: in remedying and fixing. But I thought we'd start with maybe most recently coming right
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Frank Cilluffo: out of CISA and where you oversaw a bunch of the strategy that the agency
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Frank Cilluffo: was putting forward. What are two or three things that you were most happy to
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Frank Cilluffo: see, most excited about? Well, it was an interesting time because at the time CISA
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Kiersten Todt: was the youngest agency. It's not the youngest agency anymore, but it started in 2018.
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Kiersten Todt: And so there was a lot of growth and building. And I think, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: with Jenny Sterle's leadership and looking across just the leadership of the agency, it was
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Kiersten Todt: both internal and external. Internally, as chief of staff, I think some of the things
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Kiersten Todt: that I was so pleased with was how we built out the workforce. We started
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Kiersten Todt: laying the groundwork for a neurodiversity initiative to engage individuals with neurodiversity and really look
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Kiersten Todt: at building a more inclusive workforce. It's obviously not easy in government and really anywhere
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Kiersten Todt: when you're dealing with that size, but I think we planted the seeds for some
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Kiersten Todt: important work. I think also building the collaboration with industry, it's tough when you don't
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Kiersten Todt: have the regulatory authorities, but at the same time, you're given an opportunity to really
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Kiersten Todt: build partnership and collaboration. And Frank, you and I have been working in this a
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Kiersten Todt: long time to know that the word partnership doesn't always have meaning. You know, we
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Kiersten Todt: talk about public private partnership, but trying to really engage in trust and collaboration, and
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Kiersten Todt: I think, you know, a function of the times as well as the threat has
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Kiersten Todt: really been the cross sector engagement. And that's I think the credit of government writ
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Kiersten Todt: large, it's just appreciating that while there are critical infrastructure sectors, if we're truly looking
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Kiersten Todt: at securing them, we have to look with a cross sector approach. And I feel
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Kiersten Todt: like we've made a lot of progress with that. Well, I'm going to pull the
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Frank Cilluffo: thread on all those points momentarily, but before I do that, any regrets, any unfinished
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Frank Cilluffo: business that you wish? Well, I think, you know, I mean, in government service you
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Kiersten Todt: always want to do more, right? I mean, it's always. There's never a time as
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Kiersten Todt: a civil servant, there's never a more important time because you wake up every morning
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Kiersten Todt: feeling like you're contributing to the greater good and that work is never done. And
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Kiersten Todt: so, you know, whenever you walk out the doors for the last time of that
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Kiersten Todt: particular job, there's always some sense of, oh, you know, there's so much to do
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Kiersten Todt: and so much you want to do and tremendous gratitude for the opportunity to serve.
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Kiersten Todt: So lots of stuff, no regrets, just a lot of work to be done and,
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Kiersten Todt: you know, you wish you could just continue to do it it forever. Well said.
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Frank Cilluffo: That was perfectly said, actually. So let's talk workforce. And you brought up neurodiversity, which
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Frank Cilluffo: is a passion issue of mine, because I do feel there's so much talent that
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Frank Cilluffo: is not being pulled into the fight. You see the numbers, the deficit is staggering.
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Frank Cilluffo: But doing the same thing as we always do is not necessarily going to get
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Frank Cilluffo: us over the goal line. Let's maybe start with that. If you were to sort
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Frank Cilluffo: of look at the workforce deficit and where we are as a country, not only
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Frank Cilluffo: in government, but also in industry, how can we think about this a little differently?
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Kiersten Todt: Well, I think you and I have talked about this. I sort of believe that
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Kiersten Todt: every role has a cyber component to it. So when we talk about the cyber
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Kiersten Todt: workforce gap, I understand what that means, but I really think we all have this
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Kiersten Todt: cyber responsibility. And so when we're thinking about cyber solutions and we're thinking about the
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Kiersten Todt: actual positions, when we see cybersecurity, it's about building things, building solutions, building products, building
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Kiersten Todt: outcomes and problem solving. And when, if we understand and we agree that those are
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Kiersten Todt: the two critical elements to cybersecurity, then we appreciate that the most effective way we
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Kiersten Todt: do this is by diversity of thinking, bringing in sociologists, psychologists, economists, politicians, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: kind of thinking through all of this. And so really trying to attract more than
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Kiersten Todt: just individuals with aptitudes in math and science like you. I have a real passion
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Kiersten Todt: for neurodiversity. Because I think we as a nation will be so much better if
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Kiersten Todt: we create inclusive workforces that represent and acknowledge and honor the aptitudes of individuals that
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Kiersten Todt: we may not define as being in a band that we see as, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: quote, typical. And I think when we appreciate I sit on an advisory board for
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Kiersten Todt: a company that has a workforce that's 50% neurodiverse, that are developing AI algorithms that
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Kiersten Todt: are outpacing other workforces because there's an aptitude there that we really have to honor
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Kiersten Todt: and elevate. And I think that's true for all, you know, for all skills and
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Kiersten Todt: aptitudes. We know that individuals who are hard of seeing have tremendous hearing. We know
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Kiersten Todt: that individuals who are hard of hearing can see things that the typical eye doesn't
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Kiersten Todt: see. So we just have to build out our band of really appreciating and attracting
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Kiersten Todt: and really engaging individuals who have diversity. Of thinking and very well said. And I
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Frank Cilluffo: mean, if you go back to World War II, I think it was largely neurodiverse
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Frank Cilluffo: individuals who won the Great War, those behind some of the most sophisticated cryptologists, cryptographers
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Frank Cilluffo: and the like that cracked the Enigma code and so much more. And I just
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Frank Cilluffo: feel like there's more we can do. And what are some other thoughts around sort
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Frank Cilluffo: of building up the workforce? Because I don't think it's purely a numbers game and
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Frank Cilluffo: I think you're very right by highlighting you don't only need sort of the cyber
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Frank Cilluffo: Delta force that are very sophisticated in terms of their capabilities around zeros, ones and
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Frank Cilluffo: the like. But everyone has a cyber responsibility today. Everyone pretty much nothing doesn't run
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Frank Cilluffo: exactly one way or another. And being cyber aware is so important. But I'd be
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Frank Cilluffo: curious what some of your thoughts are. Well, I think it's bringing it into curriculum,
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Kiersten Todt: bringing cybersecurity into the curriculum at a young age. I mean, we've talked about K
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Kiersten Todt: through 12 engaging. You know, when a first grader gets an iPad, they should be
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Kiersten Todt: understanding what does it mean to be cybersecure. They can develop an interest in that.
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Kiersten Todt: You know, we know that young kids tend to want to be what is in
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Kiersten Todt: their life, a construction worker, a doctor, a teacher. And so if we look at
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Kiersten Todt: that, then we're also looking at high school, bringing this into vocational schools, to community
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Kiersten Todt: colleges. There's also been some really thoughtful, there have been some really thoughtful proposals about
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Kiersten Todt: non degree work in cybersecurity, I think. And I want to pull that thread too.
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Kiersten Todt: Yeah, the things that you see are that there's so much technology out there that
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Kiersten Todt: people will just generate an interest on their own in this and they develop this
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Kiersten Todt: capability and this aptitude. And I think we have to just be able to identify
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Kiersten Todt: that you don't necessarily need a degree that aligns with an aptitude in order for
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Kiersten Todt: you to have an opportunity in the workforce. And more and more, if we're looking
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Kiersten Todt: at really going into communities that typically don't have access, being able to provide this
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Kiersten Todt: workforce opportunity, we have to flex out to really be engaging and again be inclusive
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Kiersten Todt: and really expand our definition on what qualifications mean and what it means to be
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Kiersten Todt: qualified for a role. You know, Auburn University is a land grant university and started
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Frank Cilluffo: around agriculture and we have a responsibility throughout the state, especially in communities of need
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Frank Cilluffo: around agriculture. If you were to build land grants today in addition to agriculture, which
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Frank Cilluffo: is essential to our well being and public health safety and our economy, probably come
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Frank Cilluffo: up with cyber, it would be top of list of what a new land grant
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Frank Cilluffo: would look like if we were to establish those today. Sounds like you have a
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Kiersten Todt: new policy you're building. I think we're slowly building that policy and we have a
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Frank Cilluffo: responsibility to the communities, especially in some of the more poor communities and communities of
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Frank Cilluffo: need that I think we have an opportunity to not only bring about new job
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Frank Cilluffo: opportunities, but also truth is, everyone is cyber vulnerable. So what about gamification? Have you
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Frank Cilluffo: looked into that? Because I'm going to put another pet rock on the table here.
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Frank Cilluffo: I am a trustee at the Alabama School for Cyber Technology and Engineering, first magnet
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Frank Cilluffo: school focused on cyber. The applied side is what attracts most of these kids. It's
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Frank Cilluffo: not sitting behind a computer and just the zeros and ones. It's actually seeing the
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Frank Cilluffo: fruit of their work and actually getting involved. Any thoughts there around gamification? Well, I
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Kiersten Todt: think that's human nature. There are people who do enjoy seeing sitting in front of
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Kiersten Todt: the computer and being able to do it. But generally we like to see the
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Kiersten Todt: application of this in ways that can engage. And so I absolutely think it's another
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Kiersten Todt: tool for again creating an inclusive workforce and also going into underserved communities, going into
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Kiersten Todt: communities that don't always have the resources for kids to see, hey, I have an
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Kiersten Todt: interest here, I have an aptitude here. I can take something that is critical. I
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Kiersten Todt: understand it. I think it helps to build self esteem. What we're looking at is
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Kiersten Todt: how do we increase the ability for individuals from all walks of life to have
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Kiersten Todt: work, to see an opportunity to contribute to a greater good. And in fact, I
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Kiersten Todt: mean in many ways you Know, cybersecurity is this great equalizer because it really doesn't
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Kiersten Todt: actually differentiate the. We each have an ability. I am not a real technical person,
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Kiersten Todt: but I can. There are parts of cyber that I really align with, and I
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Kiersten Todt: think that, you know, some people will just take different pieces of it. It's such
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Kiersten Todt: a diverse field. I mean, we often talk about the language in cybersecurity, and this
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Kiersten Todt: term, cybersecurity has become a little heavy, and it's jargon, but there's a reason for
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Kiersten Todt: that. It's because it's so inclusive. It really means so much. And if you think
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Kiersten Todt: about that from a positive side, it means that just about everybody can have an
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Kiersten Todt: opportunity within this field. And do you think that that's permeating and translating across? I
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Frank Cilluffo: do remember when I first served in the White House, cyber was this black magic,
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Frank Cilluffo: and we know the characters that played that. But I do think now you have
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Frank Cilluffo: cabinet members, you've got agency heads who sort of grew up around the technology and
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Frank Cilluffo: a little more aware, if not savvy. And I would argue they are more savvy.
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Frank Cilluffo: But do you think that that's permeating? I do, because I think cyber is so
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Kiersten Todt: much more part of what we're doing, and we are able to see it more
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Kiersten Todt: as a tool than. To your point. I mean, there was a period of time
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Kiersten Todt: where those who knew it kind of took that, you know, elusiveness as a. Exactly.
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Kiersten Todt: It's like, well, you won't understand this. And it's like, probably not. But I think
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Kiersten Todt: now, you know, as we simplify it, as we demystify it, you know, all these
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Kiersten Todt: words that are now used to align, but it is seen as a tool across
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Kiersten Todt: anything. I mean, you talk about agriculture, there are, you know, huge opportunities for how
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Kiersten Todt: we're able to bring this technology into creating efficiencies in agriculture, into farming. I think,
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Kiersten Todt: you know, we see that this cuts across every part of our lives, as with
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Kiersten Todt: everything, we need to do this deliberately and thoughtfully. But to your point, I do
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Kiersten Todt: think it is permeating. Great, great. And I feel that. But it's more anecdotal than
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Frank Cilluffo: empirical. But I'm sure that there is some empirical data that would make that case.
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Frank Cilluffo: What about women? The numbers, I think, are staggeringly low. And I do feel that
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Frank Cilluffo: there is opportunity to attract more smart women into the field, that you shouldn't be
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Frank Cilluffo: the exception, you should be the rule for all of this. Why do you think
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Frank Cilluffo: we struggle there? Well, I think that it's more legacy and historical as far as
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Kiersten Todt: the national security space, you know, we have these things do not change overnight. And
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Kiersten Todt: so if we look at these issues that, you know, sort of born, were able
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Kiersten Todt: to, you know, nurture cybersecurity through the years, it is national security, counterterrorism, homeland security
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Kiersten Todt: fields where there were typically a lot of men. But I think that it's so
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Kiersten Todt: important then when we look at, you know, the workforce that we want to build,
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Kiersten Todt: we don't focus on a gender, on a trait, on a demographic. It's really, how
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Kiersten Todt: do we bring everybody into this? Because I think we can probably. To your point
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Kiersten Todt: about empirical analysis, you know, there's probably, there are deficits across lots of different demographic
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Kiersten Todt: traits, different, you know, I think qualifications. But our goal should be how are we
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Kiersten Todt: ensuring that we're making this an inclusive space and really attracting all types of people,
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Kiersten Todt: because that is really what's going to benefit the space toward innovation. Toward progress and
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Frank Cilluffo: upskilling veterans. Is that something that you've been, and I know CISA was supporting efforts
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Frank Cilluffo: along these lines. I think that's another pool of very talented with real world experience.
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Frank Cilluffo: Maybe not the way we would define it in a textbook, but more importantly, the
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Frank Cilluffo: way it actually has impact in the, in the real world. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And
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Kiersten Todt: I think there are a lot of good efforts that are out there. We can
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Kiersten Todt: always be doing more. But again, it's how do we make this space look accessible
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Kiersten Todt: and be accessible to talented people? I mean, to your point, veterans have such a
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Kiersten Todt: broad, diverse depth of experience in fields that we absolutely need to be bringing into
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Kiersten Todt: our commercial industry, government workspace and having the programs that reskill, upskill, and even, you
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Kiersten Todt: know, older people. We see in our markets as people get pushed out for age,
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Kiersten Todt: for other reasons, experience, for aptitudes in technology. We have an opportunity. It's another segment
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Kiersten Todt: of the workforce that we can bring. But certainly, you know, our ability to serve
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Kiersten Todt: our veterans is so critical. And obviously, I think we have, you know, not done
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Kiersten Todt: the work that we could do. But this is an opportunity to be able to
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Kiersten Todt: engage from a workforce development. Not only the right thing, but the smart thing too.
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Frank Cilluffo: And it expands. I'd be curious in terms of volunteer organizations and for
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Frank Cilluffo: transparency. You played a key role in a recent report we did looking at priorities
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Frank Cilluffo: for the incoming administration and weighed in heavily on some of these concepts. So curious
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Frank Cilluffo: if you'd be or would appreciate you sharing some of that with our listeners and
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Frank Cilluffo: viewers. So one of the things, when I first started working on this 2016, I
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Kiersten Todt: ran President Obama's Commission on Cybersecurity. And at the time there was an effort to
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Kiersten Todt: create a national reserve for cybersecurity so it would mobilize forces at the local level.
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Kiersten Todt: It didn't really take off in different ways, but we've started to see this build.
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Kiersten Todt: And in my current role, been working very closely with Craig Newmark Philanthropies. And one
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Kiersten Todt: of the things that he has done is really engage grant money and resources to
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Kiersten Todt: organizations that are looking at recruiting volunteer workforces so that when something happens, you have
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Kiersten Todt: a community that's able to be mobilized. And whether it's people whose day job is
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Kiersten Todt: a ciso, a cio, or they have an aptitude, it's sort of like their gig
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Kiersten Todt: interest and being able to engage them. Because the piece that we always have to
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Kiersten Todt: remember is that a typical cyber event, regardless of how massive it seems and whatever
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Kiersten Todt: national newspaper covers it, it starts in a community, it starts at the local level.
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Kiersten Todt: And so being able to engage those individuals is crit critical. One of the things
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Kiersten Todt: you asked earlier about accomplishments at cisa, I think one of the things that we
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Kiersten Todt: did really well was investing in our regional teams. They're modeled after the FEMA offices,
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Kiersten Todt: but really creating leadership in cyber security advisors, physical security advisors, so that when something
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Kiersten Todt: happens, we have a team from the federal government, with FBI, with others that can
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Kiersten Todt: go right to the location and mobilize quick resources. There's a lot more happening there.
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Kiersten Todt: There are now election security advisors which are helping with certainly creating safe and secure
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Kiersten Todt: elections. But I think it's a really important element of how the federal government can
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Kiersten Todt: connect to the community level and have a team there ready to help the community.
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Frank Cilluffo: And I can tell you from personal experience that the regional CISA officer representing Auburn,
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Frank Cilluffo: Alabama is very active, including Auburn, Alabama, very active in our work, and she's doing
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Frank Cilluffo: some phenomenal work. So, you know, when I look at volunteer opportunities, every once in
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Frank Cilluffo: a while we can pull some good ideas from other countries. And have you spent
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Frank Cilluffo: any time in Estonia by any chance? I have not. So they have a pretty
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Frank Cilluffo: unique Cyber Reserve Corps. And keep in mind, there tends to be countries that are
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Frank Cilluffo: very strong in cyber, have. Have lots of experience. You've got Estonia, you've got Israel,
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Frank Cilluffo: you've got Singapore. They all have live in arguably tough neighborhoods and lots of scar
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Frank Cilluffo: tissue and experience. But there is a model there that I think is worth looking
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Frank Cilluffo: at. The Cyber Reserve Corps that they stood up. But I think your bigger point
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Frank Cilluffo: is I think we tend to forget and you and I spent a Lot of
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Frank Cilluffo: time thinking through the initial homeland security work that the US Government stood up and
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Frank Cilluffo: same sort of sets of questions. Right. It, it can't be one from D.C. right.
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Frank Cilluffo: At the end of the day, the first to arrive and the last to leave
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Frank Cilluffo: are going to be local. Yes. And, and when I look at state, local, tribal
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Frank Cilluffo: and territorial, I think there's, there's more that needs to be done there. And, and,
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Frank Cilluffo: and supporting that I think should be priority one, two and three. Yeah. So that
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Frank Cilluffo: also brings up. So you also were a founder of the Cyber Readiness Institute, which
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Frank Cilluffo: was really bringing capabilities to small and medium sized business. Just like sltt, small and
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Frank Cilluffo: medium sized business. They assume the same risk as the Fortune 100 do, but don't
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Frank Cilluffo: have the resources that Fortune 100 firms do. What are some of your thoughts there
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Frank Cilluffo: around supply chain and then more generally? Well, it's so critical. I mean, so the
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Kiersten Todt: commission, we had eight issues given to us by President Obama and one of them
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Kiersten Todt: was small and medium sized businesses. And it was a very, we started in March
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Kiersten Todt: and we ended presenting the report to him in December. So it was nine months.
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Kiersten Todt: And when we finished, two of the commissioners, the CEO of MasterCard at the time,
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Kiersten Todt: Ajay Banga, and the retired CEO, the vice chair of the commission, Sam Palmisano at
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Kiersten Todt: the time, we came together to say what more can we do with this commission?
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Kiersten Todt: Because it was a very active group. It's sort of like the groups always that
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Kiersten Todt: you lead, you get to, you engage everybody and with them. And the CEO of
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Kiersten Todt: Microsoft at the time, because the head of research was on the commission and the
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Kiersten Todt: former Secretary of Commerce, Penny Pritzker, came together to say, say let's create a nonprofit
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Kiersten Todt: that helps and supports small businesses not by recommending technologies that they have to procure,
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Kiersten Todt: but really getting to this place of what's the role of humans and people in
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Kiersten Todt: cybersecurity. So the premise of the recommendations and of the program is all based on
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Kiersten Todt: human behavior. It's educating on doing multi factor authentication, a strong password software, updates, not
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Kiersten Todt: falling victim to phishing emails. So it really looked at you as a small business.
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Kiersten Todt: If you can do these basics, if you can educate your, your business on these
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Kiersten Todt: pieces, you can create a base level of cybersecurity. Because one of the things. So
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Kiersten Todt: we started this in 2017 and then a couple years later with, with COVID we
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Kiersten Todt: saw how everything went digital and supply chains. We had a member who's a Fortune
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Kiersten Todt: 100 manufacturing company that at one point had a real challenge because one of their
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Kiersten Todt: small Businesses got hit by ransomware and it was in their supply chain, in their
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Kiersten Todt: assembly line. And I think that we have to appreciate that if you are a
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Kiersten Todt: large company, you could be doing everything to keep yourself secure. But if you're not
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Kiersten Todt: making your ecosystem secure, then you're creating tremendous, then there are vulnerabilities. And how do
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Kiersten Todt: we have greater visibility into supply chain is important. But really helping and providing resources
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Kiersten Todt: to small businesses, this is where I think the information sharing and analysis centers, the
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Kiersten Todt: ISACs, these sector organizations, can help by sharing resources and by becoming more collaborative. I
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Kiersten Todt: think they're doing a great job. But there's always opportunity to really raise the level
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Kiersten Todt: for small businesses because we can't function, our sectors don't function without the security and
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Kiersten Todt: safety and operationalism of small businesses. And small and medium sized businesses don't always have
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Frank Cilluffo: a seat at the ISACs, understandably because they don't have the time and the bandwidth
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Frank Cilluffo: and the resources necessarily. So one of the big findings of the first National Cyber
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Frank Cilluffo: Strategy that Chris Inglis laid out is shifting some of the burden to those that
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Frank Cilluffo: can handle it better. Whether it was the big cloud providers or the Microsofts or
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Frank Cilluffo: the AWS's, or you name the big firms, what more do you think can be
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Frank Cilluffo: done there? Because at the end of the day, I don't think it's the Fortune
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Frank Cilluffo: 100. They're putting the resources out there and they're actually putting their money where their
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Frank Cilluffo: mouth is. They're spending. But how do we get to the point where we can
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Frank Cilluffo: get small and medium? They're on the front lines. And ransomware has truly democratized the
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Frank Cilluffo: risk. It's not just the People's Republic of China and the Communist Party of China
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Frank Cilluffo: or Russia or Iran. It's anyone trying to take advantage. What's a business model? I
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Kiersten Todt: mean, that's the challenge. And you got to disrupt that business model, right? Yeah, well,
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Kiersten Todt: absolutely. I don't want to lead the way. Okay, well, and I remember it was
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Kiersten Todt: several years ago. There was, I think it was a 60 Minutes show. It was
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Kiersten Todt: on ransomware and it talked about a community in Arkansas. It was a local government
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Kiersten Todt: that had a ransom attack. And they asked for $50,000 and the community said, we
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Kiersten Todt: can afford 8,000. And they were like, okay, that's fine. I mean, we have to
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Kiersten Todt: remember that ransomware is a business model. And so what are we doing then to
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Kiersten Todt: help mitigate that model? We know that there are basic things to prevent ransomware. Similarly
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Kiersten Todt: with cyber hygiene. Right. When we find out that and you Know, going back a
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Kiersten Todt: couple years to Colonial Pipeline, when we find out that major infrastructure is vulnerable because
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Kiersten Todt: of a lack of multi factor authentication or the basics, how can we get this
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Kiersten Todt: into the culture? So there is the piece about the responsibility to industry which I
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Kiersten Todt: very much agree with. You know, going back and really getting at the source of
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Kiersten Todt: the problem, creating secure software, creating secure hardware, then we're in a place where how
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Kiersten Todt: do we create a culture of safety and security so that consumers, and whether that's
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Kiersten Todt: an entity that's procuring services or just a consumer like you and me, starts to
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Kiersten Todt: use security and safety as a differentiator for purchase. You know, if we start to
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Kiersten Todt: look at cybersecurity as an element of what's important to us, it obviously can't be
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Kiersten Todt: framed quite as that because to our point about language, it doesn't grab us. But
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Kiersten Todt: it's like how can we get to that energy label type issue where we start
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Kiersten Todt: to understand how secure is this entity? And it's not that they all need to
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Kiersten Todt: be at a certain level, but it's what's my risk appetite for this type of
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Kiersten Todt: product for this company. If I see that they haven't done what they should be
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Kiersten Todt: doing, how much do I want it versus another company that's put more forward? So
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Kiersten Todt: I think it's that balance and. Trust Mark and some of the labeling. Any, any
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Frank Cilluffo: thoughts there? Well, I do. I mean we actually talked about labeling in the commission
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Kiersten Todt: in 2016. I do think there's an opportunity because. I think labeling is push this
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Frank Cilluffo: heavy in solarium too. Yeah, because there's also an education in labeling. Right. The reason
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Kiersten Todt: why we as a nation understand what saturated fats are, are not because we all
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Kiersten Todt: have this like you know, private interest in nutrition. It's because we've all come to
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Kiersten Todt: socialize nutrition labels labels and we know how to read them to be how am
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Kiersten Todt: I evaluating sodium and carbohydrates. And you know, it doesn't mean I'm not going to
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Kiersten Todt: have the chocolate cake. I'm just going to know what I'm getting. And so I
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Kiersten Todt: do think because I see nutrition labels not just as a security piece, but I
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Kiersten Todt: see it very much as an education piece. It's an opportunity for us to reach
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Kiersten Todt: a lot of people. And again, Singapore has been forward leaning in some of these
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Frank Cilluffo: efforts and it's work. Grant, I mentioned countries that are much smaller, they're smaller than
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Frank Cilluffo: the United States, but they're models to build on. And that's a perfect sort of
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Frank Cilluffo: segue into human Behavior, I mean, all things said and done, technology changes, human nature
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Frank Cilluffo: remains consistent. Also, even from an adversarial, a red blue perspective, there's someone behind the
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Frank Cilluffo: clickety clack of the keyboard, or at least someone initiating automated attacks behind the clickety
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Frank Cilluffo: clack of the keyboard. How do we get to the point? And I think we
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Frank Cilluffo: need to hit a tipping point, but I'm not sure I fully understand this. But
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Frank Cilluffo: at Wondros, you're doing some good work to be able to make change in communities.
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Frank Cilluffo: And I'd be curious, we kind of know what we need to do. How do
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Frank Cilluffo: we get to the point where we do it? Yeah, well, it's about understanding people.
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Kiersten Todt: And so we talk about human centered design at Wondrous, which is very much. It's
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Kiersten Todt: not just sort of researching people, but it's actually talking to people and understanding what
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Kiersten Todt: are their blocks around certain things. So we've done work in healthcare, Wondrous has in
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Kiersten Todt: issues around addiction, around mental. Health, and I'd love to hear more about that because
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Frank Cilluffo: I think that has pertinence. It all weaves together around poverty, but certainly healthcare. And
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Kiersten Todt: now we're doing a lot of work in cybersecurity and AI. And we launched this
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Kiersten Todt: campaign a little over a month ago for Craig Newmark philanthropies called the Take 9
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Kiersten Todt: Campaign. And that came about because our researchers were really talking to people, both CISOs,
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Kiersten Todt: CIOs, but also everyday people, organizations, and what we've learned, and we know this intuitively,
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Kiersten Todt: but how do you translate it is right now the greatest challenge in cybersecurity. Why
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Kiersten Todt: so many people are falling victim to it is urgency. It's that sense of, you've
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Kiersten Todt: got to do this now at the most senior levels of companies and just as
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Kiersten Todt: pedestrians, I think, you know, each of us knows somebody, if not ourselves, who has
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Kiersten Todt: received a call and it's that, that urgency. But we're losing so much money in
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Kiersten Todt: our economy around cybersecurity. So the point is to come up with a way as
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Kiersten Todt: we understand what people's fears are or what they see as opportunities, engage communities through
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Kiersten Todt: that, and then we can help to build out, educate, empower. I think one of
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Kiersten Todt: the key pieces in cybersecurity right now is how do we help individuals appreciate that
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Kiersten Todt: it's not beyond their control, that they can actually change something from a reaction to
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Kiersten Todt: a response. We react to something quickly, but we can respond thoughtfully. And as we
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Kiersten Todt: look at building out communities and ensuring that we're creating a culture of security, Craig
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Kiersten Todt: Newmark calls This a community of cyber civil defenders. What is each of our roles?
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Kiersten Todt: What is our accountability and responsibility to help make our nation more secure when it
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Kiersten Todt: comes to cybersecurity, as you said, it affects all of us. Awesome. And can you
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Frank Cilluffo: maybe paint a picture on some of the previous campaigns and how you think that
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Frank Cilluffo: that may apply? Yeah. So we wondrous worked on the Stand up for Cancer campaign.
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Kiersten Todt: How do you engage people to understand how it's impacting everybody in an effort to
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Kiersten Todt: both educate, inform, and then to create resources? We're working on poverty issues, on how
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Kiersten Todt: to help educate on what's happening in poverty, and then to engage on mental health.
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Kiersten Todt: We're starting. We've done some work with fentanyl, and we're doing an addiction campaign, but
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Kiersten Todt: with fentanyl, a nonprofit called Song for Charlie, which was started by a couple who
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Kiersten Todt: lost their son. And when we see. And it was just in some of the
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Kiersten Todt: campaign discussions around how fentanyl is really impacting everybody in some way. One, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: first degree or second degree? I think, you know, a couple years ago, Secretary Mayorkas
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Kiersten Todt: talked about fentanyl as one of the most challenging national security crises that we have.
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Kiersten Todt: But I think the. The most representative campaign that Wondrous has worked on is with
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Kiersten Todt: the National Institutes of Health, the all of Us research program. It started seven years
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Kiersten Todt: ago. The objective was to ensure demographic representation for clinical trials by engaging a million
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Kiersten Todt: people across the country. And right now, we've got over 800. That's a serious end.
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Kiersten Todt: It's a serious piece. And so right now, we've got over 800,000 individuals representing all
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Kiersten Todt: congressional districts. But it's what they've done with that research. They've created over 100,000 genome
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Kiersten Todt: sequences. They're coming up with treatments and therapies for rare diseases. It's this appreciation that
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Kiersten Todt: if we can engage more people in healthcare research, then we will do more to
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Kiersten Todt: further healthcare research and how critical that is. And when I think about it, each
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Frank Cilluffo: one of these items is, I don't want to say epidemic phase, but each one
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Frank Cilluffo: affects everyone in one way or another. And it's actually trying to induce some changes
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Frank Cilluffo: in behavior. Right. Because I think most of us know what we need to do
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Frank Cilluffo: on the cyber side, getting it done. And if I'm being honest, it's hard in
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Frank Cilluffo: my own household. Well, my daughter will laugh at me. She's like, you do this
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Kiersten Todt: for a living when I have something wrong with my phone. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's
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Kiersten Todt: not natural, but I think it's this. How do we make this human so everybody
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Kiersten Todt: understands that they're a part of it? One of the things in our research on
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Kiersten Todt: the cyber campaign was the shame that's involved, which is fascinating. When people have been
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Kiersten Todt: a victim of something, they don't want to talk about it. Interesting. But when you
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Kiersten Todt: talk about it and you share it and you appreciate that you're not alone and
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Kiersten Todt: that there's more there, you create this massive community of support, but importantly of agency
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Kiersten Todt: of empowerment, where people are like, okay, we've got to stop this. You go from
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Kiersten Todt: being a victim to being an actor, and creating more of an activist culture in
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Kiersten Todt: cybersecurity, as well as some of these other issues, really helps to turn the tide
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Kiersten Todt: and to create change. Well, that's awesome. And translating that into action is. It'll take
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Frank Cilluffo: us a long way. And I think part of that really does step back to
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Frank Cilluffo: K through 12, where you're not coming into this issue, thinking about it for the
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Frank Cilluffo: first time at higher ed. Of course, we love higher ed and cyber, but it
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Frank Cilluffo: needs to go broader and more deeply and ultimately cause people to act. Kirsten, what
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Frank Cilluffo: questions didn't I ask that I should have? Ooh, that's a tough question. You know,
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Kiersten Todt: I think it might be a little bit sort of current, you know, flavor of
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Kiersten Todt: the day, but it's, you know, what do we want in the next administration? I
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Kiersten Todt: think one of the things that you led so well with the report, the transition
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Kiersten Todt: report, is the nonpartisan nature of cybersecurity. And I think the most important piece is
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Kiersten Todt: that we have to ensure continuity. We've had great work from several administrations going back
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Kiersten Todt: to back in cybersecurity that we have to build off of. The continued good work
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Kiersten Todt: to really look at these problems. And they're getting more complex with nation state threats.
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Kiersten Todt: These are getting more challenging, they're getting more urgent. And the importance of working together
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Kiersten Todt: across the aisle, but just working across sectors, really across communities, has never been more
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Kiersten Todt: critical. And that's what we have to lead with that right now. Couldn't have said
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Frank Cilluffo: that better if I tried. I mean, the reality is these are issues that require.
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Frank Cilluffo: It's not likely a good thing. It's a must to ensure that they transcend parties,
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Frank Cilluffo: because these are issues that affect every American. Kirsten, thank you for continuing to fight
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Frank Cilluffo: the good fight. Thank you for joining us today and thank you for continuing to
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Frank Cilluffo: be a bright light to move things into the future. Wondros is lucky to have
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Frank Cilluffo: you on board and thrilled to have you as a senior fellow. Thank you. For
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Kiersten Todt: your leadership. Thanks, Frank. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Cyberfocus. If
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Frank Cilluffo: you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing your ratings and reviews. Help us reach
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Frank Cilluffo: more listeners. Drop us a line if you have any ideas in terms of topics,
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Frank Cilluffo: themes, or individuals you'd like for us to host. Until next time, stay safe, stay
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Frank Cilluffo: informed, and stay curious.
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Frank Cilluffo: Welcome to CyberFocus from the McCrary Institute, where we explore the people and ideas shaping
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Frank Cilluffo: and defending our digital world. I'm your host, Frank Cilluffo, and have a real privilege
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Frank Cilluffo: to sit down today with Kirsten. Todd Kiersten is president at Wondros, which is a
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Frank Cilluffo: creative firm focused on social change and policy change. She previously served at the Office
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Frank Cilluffo: of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP, at the White House as a staffer on the
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Frank Cilluffo: U.S. senate Senate Homeland Security Committee, working counterterrorism and homeland security issues, and most recently
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Frank Cilluffo: as chief of staff at cisa, the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. Kirsten's known to
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Frank Cilluffo: all in the field, the bright light for so many years trying to move these
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Frank Cilluffo: issues forward. So, Kirsten, really excited to sit down with you today. Thank you, Frank.
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Kiersten Todt: It's great to be with you. You know, when we look at cyber issues and
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Frank Cilluffo: where we are today, obviously there's much we've observed and you played a key role
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Frank Cilluffo: in remedying and fixing. But I thought we'd start with maybe most recently coming right
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Frank Cilluffo: out of CISA and where you oversaw a bunch of the strategy that the agency
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Frank Cilluffo: was putting forward. What are two or three things that you were most happy to
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Frank Cilluffo: see, most excited about? Well, it was an interesting time because at the time CISA
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Kiersten Todt: was the youngest agency. It's not the youngest agency anymore, but it started in 2018.
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Kiersten Todt: And so there was a lot of growth and building. And I think, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: with Jenny Sterle's leadership and looking across just the leadership of the agency, it was
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Kiersten Todt: both internal and external. Internally, as chief of staff, I think some of the things
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Kiersten Todt: that I was so pleased with was how we built out the workforce. We started
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Kiersten Todt: laying the groundwork for a neurodiversity initiative to engage individuals with neurodiversity and really look
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Kiersten Todt: at building a more inclusive workforce. It's obviously not easy in government and really anywhere
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Kiersten Todt: when you're dealing with that size, but I think we planted the seeds for some
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Kiersten Todt: important work. I think also building the collaboration with industry, it's tough when you don't
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Kiersten Todt: have the regulatory authorities, but at the same time, you're given an opportunity to really
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Kiersten Todt: build partnership and collaboration. And Frank, you and I have been working in this a
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Kiersten Todt: long time to know that the word partnership doesn't always have meaning. You know, we
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Kiersten Todt: talk about public private partnership, but trying to really engage in trust and collaboration, and
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Kiersten Todt: I think, you know, a function of the times as well as the threat has
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Kiersten Todt: really been the cross sector engagement. And that's I think the credit of government writ
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Kiersten Todt: large, it's just appreciating that while there are critical infrastructure sectors, if we're truly looking
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Kiersten Todt: at securing them, we have to look with a cross sector approach. And I feel
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Kiersten Todt: like we've made a lot of progress with that. Well, I'm going to pull the
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Frank Cilluffo: thread on all those points momentarily, but before I do that, any regrets, any unfinished
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Frank Cilluffo: business that you wish? Well, I think, you know, I mean, in government service you
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Kiersten Todt: always want to do more, right? I mean, it's always. There's never a time as
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Kiersten Todt: a civil servant, there's never a more important time because you wake up every morning
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Kiersten Todt: feeling like you're contributing to the greater good and that work is never done. And
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Kiersten Todt: so, you know, whenever you walk out the doors for the last time of that
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Kiersten Todt: particular job, there's always some sense of, oh, you know, there's so much to do
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Kiersten Todt: and so much you want to do and tremendous gratitude for the opportunity to serve.
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Kiersten Todt: So lots of stuff, no regrets, just a lot of work to be done and,
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Kiersten Todt: you know, you wish you could just continue to do it it forever. Well said.
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Frank Cilluffo: That was perfectly said, actually. So let's talk workforce. And you brought up neurodiversity, which
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Frank Cilluffo: is a passion issue of mine, because I do feel there's so much talent that
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Frank Cilluffo: is not being pulled into the fight. You see the numbers, the deficit is staggering.
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Frank Cilluffo: But doing the same thing as we always do is not necessarily going to get
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Frank Cilluffo: us over the goal line. Let's maybe start with that. If you were to sort
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Frank Cilluffo: of look at the workforce deficit and where we are as a country, not only
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Frank Cilluffo: in government, but also in industry, how can we think about this a little differently?
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Kiersten Todt: Well, I think you and I have talked about this. I sort of believe that
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Kiersten Todt: every role has a cyber component to it. So when we talk about the cyber
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Kiersten Todt: workforce gap, I understand what that means, but I really think we all have this
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Kiersten Todt: cyber responsibility. And so when we're thinking about cyber solutions and we're thinking about the
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Kiersten Todt: actual positions, when we see cybersecurity, it's about building things, building solutions, building products, building
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Kiersten Todt: outcomes and problem solving. And when, if we understand and we agree that those are
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Kiersten Todt: the two critical elements to cybersecurity, then we appreciate that the most effective way we
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Kiersten Todt: do this is by diversity of thinking, bringing in sociologists, psychologists, economists, politicians, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: kind of thinking through all of this. And so really trying to attract more than
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Kiersten Todt: just individuals with aptitudes in math and science like you. I have a real passion
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Kiersten Todt: for neurodiversity. Because I think we as a nation will be so much better if
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Kiersten Todt: we create inclusive workforces that represent and acknowledge and honor the aptitudes of individuals that
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Kiersten Todt: we may not define as being in a band that we see as, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: quote, typical. And I think when we appreciate I sit on an advisory board for
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Kiersten Todt: a company that has a workforce that's 50% neurodiverse, that are developing AI algorithms that
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Kiersten Todt: are outpacing other workforces because there's an aptitude there that we really have to honor
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Kiersten Todt: and elevate. And I think that's true for all, you know, for all skills and
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Kiersten Todt: aptitudes. We know that individuals who are hard of seeing have tremendous hearing. We know
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Kiersten Todt: that individuals who are hard of hearing can see things that the typical eye doesn't
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Kiersten Todt: see. So we just have to build out our band of really appreciating and attracting
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Kiersten Todt: and really engaging individuals who have diversity. Of thinking and very well said. And I
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Frank Cilluffo: mean, if you go back to World War II, I think it was largely neurodiverse
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Frank Cilluffo: individuals who won the Great War, those behind some of the most sophisticated cryptologists, cryptographers
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Frank Cilluffo: and the like that cracked the Enigma code and so much more. And I just
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Frank Cilluffo: feel like there's more we can do. And what are some other thoughts around sort
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Frank Cilluffo: of building up the workforce? Because I don't think it's purely a numbers game and
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Frank Cilluffo: I think you're very right by highlighting you don't only need sort of the cyber
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Frank Cilluffo: Delta force that are very sophisticated in terms of their capabilities around zeros, ones and
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Frank Cilluffo: the like. But everyone has a cyber responsibility today. Everyone pretty much nothing doesn't run
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Frank Cilluffo: exactly one way or another. And being cyber aware is so important. But I'd be
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Frank Cilluffo: curious what some of your thoughts are. Well, I think it's bringing it into curriculum,
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Kiersten Todt: bringing cybersecurity into the curriculum at a young age. I mean, we've talked about K
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Kiersten Todt: through 12 engaging. You know, when a first grader gets an iPad, they should be
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Kiersten Todt: understanding what does it mean to be cybersecure. They can develop an interest in that.
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Kiersten Todt: You know, we know that young kids tend to want to be what is in
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Kiersten Todt: their life, a construction worker, a doctor, a teacher. And so if we look at
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Kiersten Todt: that, then we're also looking at high school, bringing this into vocational schools, to community
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Kiersten Todt: colleges. There's also been some really thoughtful, there have been some really thoughtful proposals about
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Kiersten Todt: non degree work in cybersecurity, I think. And I want to pull that thread too.
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Kiersten Todt: Yeah, the things that you see are that there's so much technology out there that
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Kiersten Todt: people will just generate an interest on their own in this and they develop this
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Kiersten Todt: capability and this aptitude. And I think we have to just be able to identify
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Kiersten Todt: that you don't necessarily need a degree that aligns with an aptitude in order for
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Kiersten Todt: you to have an opportunity in the workforce. And more and more, if we're looking
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Kiersten Todt: at really going into communities that typically don't have access, being able to provide this
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Kiersten Todt: workforce opportunity, we have to flex out to really be engaging and again be inclusive
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Kiersten Todt: and really expand our definition on what qualifications mean and what it means to be
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Kiersten Todt: qualified for a role. You know, Auburn University is a land grant university and started
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Frank Cilluffo: around agriculture and we have a responsibility throughout the state, especially in communities of need
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Frank Cilluffo: around agriculture. If you were to build land grants today in addition to agriculture, which
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Frank Cilluffo: is essential to our well being and public health safety and our economy, probably come
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Frank Cilluffo: up with cyber, it would be top of list of what a new land grant
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Frank Cilluffo: would look like if we were to establish those today. Sounds like you have a
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Kiersten Todt: new policy you're building. I think we're slowly building that policy and we have a
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Frank Cilluffo: responsibility to the communities, especially in some of the more poor communities and communities of
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Frank Cilluffo: need that I think we have an opportunity to not only bring about new job
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Frank Cilluffo: opportunities, but also truth is, everyone is cyber vulnerable. So what about gamification? Have you
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Frank Cilluffo: looked into that? Because I'm going to put another pet rock on the table here.
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Frank Cilluffo: I am a trustee at the Alabama School for Cyber Technology and Engineering, first magnet
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Frank Cilluffo: school focused on cyber. The applied side is what attracts most of these kids. It's
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Frank Cilluffo: not sitting behind a computer and just the zeros and ones. It's actually seeing the
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Frank Cilluffo: fruit of their work and actually getting involved. Any thoughts there around gamification? Well, I
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Kiersten Todt: think that's human nature. There are people who do enjoy seeing sitting in front of
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Kiersten Todt: the computer and being able to do it. But generally we like to see the
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Kiersten Todt: application of this in ways that can engage. And so I absolutely think it's another
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Kiersten Todt: tool for again creating an inclusive workforce and also going into underserved communities, going into
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Kiersten Todt: communities that don't always have the resources for kids to see, hey, I have an
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Kiersten Todt: interest here, I have an aptitude here. I can take something that is critical. I
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Kiersten Todt: understand it. I think it helps to build self esteem. What we're looking at is
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Kiersten Todt: how do we increase the ability for individuals from all walks of life to have
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Kiersten Todt: work, to see an opportunity to contribute to a greater good. And in fact, I
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Kiersten Todt: mean in many ways you Know, cybersecurity is this great equalizer because it really doesn't
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Kiersten Todt: actually differentiate the. We each have an ability. I am not a real technical person,
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Kiersten Todt: but I can. There are parts of cyber that I really align with, and I
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Kiersten Todt: think that, you know, some people will just take different pieces of it. It's such
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Kiersten Todt: a diverse field. I mean, we often talk about the language in cybersecurity, and this
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Kiersten Todt: term, cybersecurity has become a little heavy, and it's jargon, but there's a reason for
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Kiersten Todt: that. It's because it's so inclusive. It really means so much. And if you think
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Kiersten Todt: about that from a positive side, it means that just about everybody can have an
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Kiersten Todt: opportunity within this field. And do you think that that's permeating and translating across? I
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Frank Cilluffo: do remember when I first served in the White House, cyber was this black magic,
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Frank Cilluffo: and we know the characters that played that. But I do think now you have
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Frank Cilluffo: cabinet members, you've got agency heads who sort of grew up around the technology and
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Frank Cilluffo: a little more aware, if not savvy. And I would argue they are more savvy.
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Frank Cilluffo: But do you think that that's permeating? I do, because I think cyber is so
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Kiersten Todt: much more part of what we're doing, and we are able to see it more
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Kiersten Todt: as a tool than. To your point. I mean, there was a period of time
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Kiersten Todt: where those who knew it kind of took that, you know, elusiveness as a. Exactly.
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Kiersten Todt: It's like, well, you won't understand this. And it's like, probably not. But I think
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Kiersten Todt: now, you know, as we simplify it, as we demystify it, you know, all these
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Kiersten Todt: words that are now used to align, but it is seen as a tool across
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Kiersten Todt: anything. I mean, you talk about agriculture, there are, you know, huge opportunities for how
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Kiersten Todt: we're able to bring this technology into creating efficiencies in agriculture, into farming. I think,
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Kiersten Todt: you know, we see that this cuts across every part of our lives, as with
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Kiersten Todt: everything, we need to do this deliberately and thoughtfully. But to your point, I do
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Kiersten Todt: think it is permeating. Great, great. And I feel that. But it's more anecdotal than
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Frank Cilluffo: empirical. But I'm sure that there is some empirical data that would make that case.
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Frank Cilluffo: What about women? The numbers, I think, are staggeringly low. And I do feel that
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Frank Cilluffo: there is opportunity to attract more smart women into the field, that you shouldn't be
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Frank Cilluffo: the exception, you should be the rule for all of this. Why do you think
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Frank Cilluffo: we struggle there? Well, I think that it's more legacy and historical as far as
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Kiersten Todt: the national security space, you know, we have these things do not change overnight. And
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Kiersten Todt: so if we look at these issues that, you know, sort of born, were able
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Kiersten Todt: to, you know, nurture cybersecurity through the years, it is national security, counterterrorism, homeland security
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Kiersten Todt: fields where there were typically a lot of men. But I think that it's so
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Kiersten Todt: important then when we look at, you know, the workforce that we want to build,
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Kiersten Todt: we don't focus on a gender, on a trait, on a demographic. It's really, how
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Kiersten Todt: do we bring everybody into this? Because I think we can probably. To your point
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Kiersten Todt: about empirical analysis, you know, there's probably, there are deficits across lots of different demographic
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Kiersten Todt: traits, different, you know, I think qualifications. But our goal should be how are we
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Kiersten Todt: ensuring that we're making this an inclusive space and really attracting all types of people,
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Kiersten Todt: because that is really what's going to benefit the space toward innovation. Toward progress and
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Frank Cilluffo: upskilling veterans. Is that something that you've been, and I know CISA was supporting efforts
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Frank Cilluffo: along these lines. I think that's another pool of very talented with real world experience.
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Frank Cilluffo: Maybe not the way we would define it in a textbook, but more importantly, the
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Frank Cilluffo: way it actually has impact in the, in the real world. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And
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Kiersten Todt: I think there are a lot of good efforts that are out there. We can
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Kiersten Todt: always be doing more. But again, it's how do we make this space look accessible
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Kiersten Todt: and be accessible to talented people? I mean, to your point, veterans have such a
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Kiersten Todt: broad, diverse depth of experience in fields that we absolutely need to be bringing into
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Kiersten Todt: our commercial industry, government workspace and having the programs that reskill, upskill, and even, you
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Kiersten Todt: know, older people. We see in our markets as people get pushed out for age,
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Kiersten Todt: for other reasons, experience, for aptitudes in technology. We have an opportunity. It's another segment
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Kiersten Todt: of the workforce that we can bring. But certainly, you know, our ability to serve
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Kiersten Todt: our veterans is so critical. And obviously, I think we have, you know, not done
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Kiersten Todt: the work that we could do. But this is an opportunity to be able to
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Kiersten Todt: engage from a workforce development. Not only the right thing, but the smart thing too.
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Frank Cilluffo: And it expands. I'd be curious in terms of volunteer organizations and for
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Frank Cilluffo: transparency. You played a key role in a recent report we did looking at priorities
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Frank Cilluffo: for the incoming administration and weighed in heavily on some of these concepts. So curious
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Frank Cilluffo: if you'd be or would appreciate you sharing some of that with our listeners and
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Frank Cilluffo: viewers. So one of the things, when I first started working on this 2016, I
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Kiersten Todt: ran President Obama's Commission on Cybersecurity. And at the time there was an effort to
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Kiersten Todt: create a national reserve for cybersecurity so it would mobilize forces at the local level.
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Kiersten Todt: It didn't really take off in different ways, but we've started to see this build.
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Kiersten Todt: And in my current role, been working very closely with Craig Newmark Philanthropies. And one
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Kiersten Todt: of the things that he has done is really engage grant money and resources to
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Kiersten Todt: organizations that are looking at recruiting volunteer workforces so that when something happens, you have
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Kiersten Todt: a community that's able to be mobilized. And whether it's people whose day job is
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Kiersten Todt: a ciso, a cio, or they have an aptitude, it's sort of like their gig
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Kiersten Todt: interest and being able to engage them. Because the piece that we always have to
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Kiersten Todt: remember is that a typical cyber event, regardless of how massive it seems and whatever
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Kiersten Todt: national newspaper covers it, it starts in a community, it starts at the local level.
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Kiersten Todt: And so being able to engage those individuals is crit critical. One of the things
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Kiersten Todt: you asked earlier about accomplishments at cisa, I think one of the things that we
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Kiersten Todt: did really well was investing in our regional teams. They're modeled after the FEMA offices,
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Kiersten Todt: but really creating leadership in cyber security advisors, physical security advisors, so that when something
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Kiersten Todt: happens, we have a team from the federal government, with FBI, with others that can
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Kiersten Todt: go right to the location and mobilize quick resources. There's a lot more happening there.
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Kiersten Todt: There are now election security advisors which are helping with certainly creating safe and secure
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Kiersten Todt: elections. But I think it's a really important element of how the federal government can
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Kiersten Todt: connect to the community level and have a team there ready to help the community.
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Frank Cilluffo: And I can tell you from personal experience that the regional CISA officer representing Auburn,
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Frank Cilluffo: Alabama is very active, including Auburn, Alabama, very active in our work, and she's doing
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Frank Cilluffo: some phenomenal work. So, you know, when I look at volunteer opportunities, every once in
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Frank Cilluffo: a while we can pull some good ideas from other countries. And have you spent
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Frank Cilluffo: any time in Estonia by any chance? I have not. So they have a pretty
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Frank Cilluffo: unique Cyber Reserve Corps. And keep in mind, there tends to be countries that are
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Frank Cilluffo: very strong in cyber, have. Have lots of experience. You've got Estonia, you've got Israel,
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Frank Cilluffo: you've got Singapore. They all have live in arguably tough neighborhoods and lots of scar
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Frank Cilluffo: tissue and experience. But there is a model there that I think is worth looking
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Frank Cilluffo: at. The Cyber Reserve Corps that they stood up. But I think your bigger point
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Frank Cilluffo: is I think we tend to forget and you and I spent a Lot of
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Frank Cilluffo: time thinking through the initial homeland security work that the US Government stood up and
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Frank Cilluffo: same sort of sets of questions. Right. It, it can't be one from D.C. right.
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Frank Cilluffo: At the end of the day, the first to arrive and the last to leave
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Frank Cilluffo: are going to be local. Yes. And, and when I look at state, local, tribal
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Frank Cilluffo: and territorial, I think there's, there's more that needs to be done there. And, and,
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Frank Cilluffo: and supporting that I think should be priority one, two and three. Yeah. So that
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Frank Cilluffo: also brings up. So you also were a founder of the Cyber Readiness Institute, which
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Frank Cilluffo: was really bringing capabilities to small and medium sized business. Just like sltt, small and
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Frank Cilluffo: medium sized business. They assume the same risk as the Fortune 100 do, but don't
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Frank Cilluffo: have the resources that Fortune 100 firms do. What are some of your thoughts there
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Frank Cilluffo: around supply chain and then more generally? Well, it's so critical. I mean, so the
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Kiersten Todt: commission, we had eight issues given to us by President Obama and one of them
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Kiersten Todt: was small and medium sized businesses. And it was a very, we started in March
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Kiersten Todt: and we ended presenting the report to him in December. So it was nine months.
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Kiersten Todt: And when we finished, two of the commissioners, the CEO of MasterCard at the time,
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Kiersten Todt: Ajay Banga, and the retired CEO, the vice chair of the commission, Sam Palmisano at
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Kiersten Todt: the time, we came together to say what more can we do with this commission?
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Kiersten Todt: Because it was a very active group. It's sort of like the groups always that
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Kiersten Todt: you lead, you get to, you engage everybody and with them. And the CEO of
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Kiersten Todt: Microsoft at the time, because the head of research was on the commission and the
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Kiersten Todt: former Secretary of Commerce, Penny Pritzker, came together to say, say let's create a nonprofit
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Kiersten Todt: that helps and supports small businesses not by recommending technologies that they have to procure,
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Kiersten Todt: but really getting to this place of what's the role of humans and people in
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Kiersten Todt: cybersecurity. So the premise of the recommendations and of the program is all based on
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Kiersten Todt: human behavior. It's educating on doing multi factor authentication, a strong password software, updates, not
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Kiersten Todt: falling victim to phishing emails. So it really looked at you as a small business.
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Kiersten Todt: If you can do these basics, if you can educate your, your business on these
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Kiersten Todt: pieces, you can create a base level of cybersecurity. Because one of the things. So
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Kiersten Todt: we started this in 2017 and then a couple years later with, with COVID we
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Kiersten Todt: saw how everything went digital and supply chains. We had a member who's a Fortune
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Kiersten Todt: 100 manufacturing company that at one point had a real challenge because one of their
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Kiersten Todt: small Businesses got hit by ransomware and it was in their supply chain, in their
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Kiersten Todt: assembly line. And I think that we have to appreciate that if you are a
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Kiersten Todt: large company, you could be doing everything to keep yourself secure. But if you're not
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Kiersten Todt: making your ecosystem secure, then you're creating tremendous, then there are vulnerabilities. And how do
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Kiersten Todt: we have greater visibility into supply chain is important. But really helping and providing resources
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Kiersten Todt: to small businesses, this is where I think the information sharing and analysis centers, the
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Kiersten Todt: ISACs, these sector organizations, can help by sharing resources and by becoming more collaborative. I
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Kiersten Todt: think they're doing a great job. But there's always opportunity to really raise the level
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Kiersten Todt: for small businesses because we can't function, our sectors don't function without the security and
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Kiersten Todt: safety and operationalism of small businesses. And small and medium sized businesses don't always have
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Frank Cilluffo: a seat at the ISACs, understandably because they don't have the time and the bandwidth
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Frank Cilluffo: and the resources necessarily. So one of the big findings of the first National Cyber
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Frank Cilluffo: Strategy that Chris Inglis laid out is shifting some of the burden to those that
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Frank Cilluffo: can handle it better. Whether it was the big cloud providers or the Microsofts or
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Frank Cilluffo: the AWS's, or you name the big firms, what more do you think can be
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Frank Cilluffo: done there? Because at the end of the day, I don't think it's the Fortune
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Frank Cilluffo: 100. They're putting the resources out there and they're actually putting their money where their
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Frank Cilluffo: mouth is. They're spending. But how do we get to the point where we can
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Frank Cilluffo: get small and medium? They're on the front lines. And ransomware has truly democratized the
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Frank Cilluffo: risk. It's not just the People's Republic of China and the Communist Party of China
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Frank Cilluffo: or Russia or Iran. It's anyone trying to take advantage. What's a business model? I
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Kiersten Todt: mean, that's the challenge. And you got to disrupt that business model, right? Yeah, well,
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Kiersten Todt: absolutely. I don't want to lead the way. Okay, well, and I remember it was
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Kiersten Todt: several years ago. There was, I think it was a 60 Minutes show. It was
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Kiersten Todt: on ransomware and it talked about a community in Arkansas. It was a local government
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Kiersten Todt: that had a ransom attack. And they asked for $50,000 and the community said, we
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Kiersten Todt: can afford 8,000. And they were like, okay, that's fine. I mean, we have to
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Kiersten Todt: remember that ransomware is a business model. And so what are we doing then to
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Kiersten Todt: help mitigate that model? We know that there are basic things to prevent ransomware. Similarly
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Kiersten Todt: with cyber hygiene. Right. When we find out that and you Know, going back a
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Kiersten Todt: couple years to Colonial Pipeline, when we find out that major infrastructure is vulnerable because
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Kiersten Todt: of a lack of multi factor authentication or the basics, how can we get this
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Kiersten Todt: into the culture? So there is the piece about the responsibility to industry which I
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Kiersten Todt: very much agree with. You know, going back and really getting at the source of
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Kiersten Todt: the problem, creating secure software, creating secure hardware, then we're in a place where how
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Kiersten Todt: do we create a culture of safety and security so that consumers, and whether that's
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Kiersten Todt: an entity that's procuring services or just a consumer like you and me, starts to
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Kiersten Todt: use security and safety as a differentiator for purchase. You know, if we start to
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Kiersten Todt: look at cybersecurity as an element of what's important to us, it obviously can't be
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Kiersten Todt: framed quite as that because to our point about language, it doesn't grab us. But
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Kiersten Todt: it's like how can we get to that energy label type issue where we start
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Kiersten Todt: to understand how secure is this entity? And it's not that they all need to
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Kiersten Todt: be at a certain level, but it's what's my risk appetite for this type of
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Kiersten Todt: product for this company. If I see that they haven't done what they should be
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Kiersten Todt: doing, how much do I want it versus another company that's put more forward? So
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Kiersten Todt: I think it's that balance and. Trust Mark and some of the labeling. Any, any
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Frank Cilluffo: thoughts there? Well, I do. I mean we actually talked about labeling in the commission
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Kiersten Todt: in 2016. I do think there's an opportunity because. I think labeling is push this
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Frank Cilluffo: heavy in solarium too. Yeah, because there's also an education in labeling. Right. The reason
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Kiersten Todt: why we as a nation understand what saturated fats are, are not because we all
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Kiersten Todt: have this like you know, private interest in nutrition. It's because we've all come to
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Kiersten Todt: socialize nutrition labels labels and we know how to read them to be how am
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Kiersten Todt: I evaluating sodium and carbohydrates. And you know, it doesn't mean I'm not going to
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Kiersten Todt: have the chocolate cake. I'm just going to know what I'm getting. And so I
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Kiersten Todt: do think because I see nutrition labels not just as a security piece, but I
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Kiersten Todt: see it very much as an education piece. It's an opportunity for us to reach
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Kiersten Todt: a lot of people. And again, Singapore has been forward leaning in some of these
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Frank Cilluffo: efforts and it's work. Grant, I mentioned countries that are much smaller, they're smaller than
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Frank Cilluffo: the United States, but they're models to build on. And that's a perfect sort of
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Frank Cilluffo: segue into human Behavior, I mean, all things said and done, technology changes, human nature
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Frank Cilluffo: remains consistent. Also, even from an adversarial, a red blue perspective, there's someone behind the
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Frank Cilluffo: clickety clack of the keyboard, or at least someone initiating automated attacks behind the clickety
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Frank Cilluffo: clack of the keyboard. How do we get to the point? And I think we
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Frank Cilluffo: need to hit a tipping point, but I'm not sure I fully understand this. But
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Frank Cilluffo: at Wondros, you're doing some good work to be able to make change in communities.
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Frank Cilluffo: And I'd be curious, we kind of know what we need to do. How do
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Frank Cilluffo: we get to the point where we do it? Yeah, well, it's about understanding people.
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Kiersten Todt: And so we talk about human centered design at Wondrous, which is very much. It's
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Kiersten Todt: not just sort of researching people, but it's actually talking to people and understanding what
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Kiersten Todt: are their blocks around certain things. So we've done work in healthcare, Wondrous has in
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Kiersten Todt: issues around addiction, around mental. Health, and I'd love to hear more about that because
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Frank Cilluffo: I think that has pertinence. It all weaves together around poverty, but certainly healthcare. And
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Kiersten Todt: now we're doing a lot of work in cybersecurity and AI. And we launched this
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Kiersten Todt: campaign a little over a month ago for Craig Newmark philanthropies called the Take 9
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Kiersten Todt: Campaign. And that came about because our researchers were really talking to people, both CISOs,
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Kiersten Todt: CIOs, but also everyday people, organizations, and what we've learned, and we know this intuitively,
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Kiersten Todt: but how do you translate it is right now the greatest challenge in cybersecurity. Why
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Kiersten Todt: so many people are falling victim to it is urgency. It's that sense of, you've
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Kiersten Todt: got to do this now at the most senior levels of companies and just as
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Kiersten Todt: pedestrians, I think, you know, each of us knows somebody, if not ourselves, who has
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Kiersten Todt: received a call and it's that, that urgency. But we're losing so much money in
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Kiersten Todt: our economy around cybersecurity. So the point is to come up with a way as
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Kiersten Todt: we understand what people's fears are or what they see as opportunities, engage communities through
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Kiersten Todt: that, and then we can help to build out, educate, empower. I think one of
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Kiersten Todt: the key pieces in cybersecurity right now is how do we help individuals appreciate that
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Kiersten Todt: it's not beyond their control, that they can actually change something from a reaction to
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Kiersten Todt: a response. We react to something quickly, but we can respond thoughtfully. And as we
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Kiersten Todt: look at building out communities and ensuring that we're creating a culture of security, Craig
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Kiersten Todt: Newmark calls This a community of cyber civil defenders. What is each of our roles?
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Kiersten Todt: What is our accountability and responsibility to help make our nation more secure when it
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Kiersten Todt: comes to cybersecurity, as you said, it affects all of us. Awesome. And can you
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Frank Cilluffo: maybe paint a picture on some of the previous campaigns and how you think that
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Frank Cilluffo: that may apply? Yeah. So we wondrous worked on the Stand up for Cancer campaign.
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Kiersten Todt: How do you engage people to understand how it's impacting everybody in an effort to
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Kiersten Todt: both educate, inform, and then to create resources? We're working on poverty issues, on how
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Kiersten Todt: to help educate on what's happening in poverty, and then to engage on mental health.
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Kiersten Todt: We're starting. We've done some work with fentanyl, and we're doing an addiction campaign, but
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Kiersten Todt: with fentanyl, a nonprofit called Song for Charlie, which was started by a couple who
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Kiersten Todt: lost their son. And when we see. And it was just in some of the
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Kiersten Todt: campaign discussions around how fentanyl is really impacting everybody in some way. One, you know,
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Kiersten Todt: first degree or second degree? I think, you know, a couple years ago, Secretary Mayorkas
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Kiersten Todt: talked about fentanyl as one of the most challenging national security crises that we have.
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Kiersten Todt: But I think the. The most representative campaign that Wondrous has worked on is with
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Kiersten Todt: the National Institutes of Health, the all of Us research program. It started seven years
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Kiersten Todt: ago. The objective was to ensure demographic representation for clinical trials by engaging a million
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Kiersten Todt: people across the country. And right now, we've got over 800. That's a serious end.
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Kiersten Todt: It's a serious piece. And so right now, we've got over 800,000 individuals representing all
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Kiersten Todt: congressional districts. But it's what they've done with that research. They've created over 100,000 genome
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Kiersten Todt: sequences. They're coming up with treatments and therapies for rare diseases. It's this appreciation that
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Kiersten Todt: if we can engage more people in healthcare research, then we will do more to
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Kiersten Todt: further healthcare research and how critical that is. And when I think about it, each
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Frank Cilluffo: one of these items is, I don't want to say epidemic phase, but each one
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Frank Cilluffo: affects everyone in one way or another. And it's actually trying to induce some changes
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Frank Cilluffo: in behavior. Right. Because I think most of us know what we need to do
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Frank Cilluffo: on the cyber side, getting it done. And if I'm being honest, it's hard in
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Frank Cilluffo: my own household. Well, my daughter will laugh at me. She's like, you do this
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Kiersten Todt: for a living when I have something wrong with my phone. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's
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Kiersten Todt: not natural, but I think it's this. How do we make this human so everybody
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Kiersten Todt: understands that they're a part of it? One of the things in our research on
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Kiersten Todt: the cyber campaign was the shame that's involved, which is fascinating. When people have been
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Kiersten Todt: a victim of something, they don't want to talk about it. Interesting. But when you
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Kiersten Todt: talk about it and you share it and you appreciate that you're not alone and
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Kiersten Todt: that there's more there, you create this massive community of support, but importantly of agency
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Kiersten Todt: of empowerment, where people are like, okay, we've got to stop this. You go from
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Kiersten Todt: being a victim to being an actor, and creating more of an activist culture in
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Kiersten Todt: cybersecurity, as well as some of these other issues, really helps to turn the tide
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Kiersten Todt: and to create change. Well, that's awesome. And translating that into action is. It'll take
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Frank Cilluffo: us a long way. And I think part of that really does step back to
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Frank Cilluffo: K through 12, where you're not coming into this issue, thinking about it for the
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Frank Cilluffo: first time at higher ed. Of course, we love higher ed and cyber, but it
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Frank Cilluffo: needs to go broader and more deeply and ultimately cause people to act. Kirsten, what
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Frank Cilluffo: questions didn't I ask that I should have? Ooh, that's a tough question. You know,
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Kiersten Todt: I think it might be a little bit sort of current, you know, flavor of
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Kiersten Todt: the day, but it's, you know, what do we want in the next administration? I
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Kiersten Todt: think one of the things that you led so well with the report, the transition
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Kiersten Todt: report, is the nonpartisan nature of cybersecurity. And I think the most important piece is
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Kiersten Todt: that we have to ensure continuity. We've had great work from several administrations going back
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Kiersten Todt: to back in cybersecurity that we have to build off of. The continued good work
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Kiersten Todt: to really look at these problems. And they're getting more complex with nation state threats.
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Kiersten Todt: These are getting more challenging, they're getting more urgent. And the importance of working together
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Kiersten Todt: across the aisle, but just working across sectors, really across communities, has never been more
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Kiersten Todt: critical. And that's what we have to lead with that right now. Couldn't have said
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Frank Cilluffo: that better if I tried. I mean, the reality is these are issues that require.
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Frank Cilluffo: It's not likely a good thing. It's a must to ensure that they transcend parties,
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Frank Cilluffo: because these are issues that affect every American. Kirsten, thank you for continuing to fight
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Frank Cilluffo: the good fight. Thank you for joining us today and thank you for continuing to
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Frank Cilluffo: be a bright light to move things into the future. Wondros is lucky to have
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Frank Cilluffo: you on board and thrilled to have you as a senior fellow. Thank you. For
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Kiersten Todt: your leadership. Thanks, Frank. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Cyberfocus. If
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Frank Cilluffo: you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing your ratings and reviews. Help us reach
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Frank Cilluffo: more listeners. Drop us a line if you have any ideas in terms of topics,
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Frank Cilluffo: themes, or individuals you'd like for us to host. Until next time, stay safe, stay
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Frank Cilluffo: informed, and stay curious.
