Cherry

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Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them.
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I'm Ashley, a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.
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And I'm Remy.
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I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.
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And welcome back, everybody.
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Two weeks ago, we talked about a military veteran roof hopping robber hiding inside Toys R Us.
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And today we are talking about another military veteran who is also a robber, but this time of Banks.
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Remy, how are you doing today?
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I'm doing okay.
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I'm having a little bit of an allergic reaction to my toothpaste, so that's been fun.
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But other than that, I think you and I need to officially announce that we are married now.
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We recorded the last few episodes in advance to give us time to prep for the celebration.
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And yeah, it's a done deal.
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We have tied the knot, so just wanted to announce that to everybody.
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A little bit of good news to start off the episode this week.
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It was a really great wedding.
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Shout out to all of our listeners that were there to celebrate with us.
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It was a blast.
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I wish we could do it again, but minus the expenses.
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Yes, thank you all to the family and friends who listened to this podcast and were there that day.
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But today, we will be discussing the film Carrie, based on the life of Nico Walker, an Iraq war veteran who returned home with PTSD, got addicted to heroin, and began robbing banks to finance his habit.
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And the film is directed by some pretty heavy hitters, wouldn't you say?
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I would absolutely say that.
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This film is directed by Joe and Anthony Russo, aka the Russo brothers.
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They have made such hugely successful blockbusters as Captain America Winter Soldier, Captain America Civil War, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, and of course You, Me, and Dupree.
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And they're slated to direct the next two Avengers movies, so they are just continuing with Marvel.
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Yeah, it's kind of crazy that these guys went from making four of the highest-grossing, crowd-pleasing Marvel movies in cinematic history, to following it up with a depressing film like this about drug addiction and PTSD.
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It is not what I would have expected from them, in all honesty.
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Well, there is a personal story as to why they chose this.
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I always got the impression that they were trying to prove to the rest of Hollywood that they could make a serious film after making all those crazy Marvel films for so long.
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And I saw this film back when it was released on streaming, and I don't remember them pulling that off successfully, but maybe I am misremembering.
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Ashley, you saw this a lot more recently than I have.
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Do you think they pulled off this serious film transition that I assume they were going for?
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I think it's a good movie.
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It's long, it's two hours and 20 minutes.
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It is shot in a really unique way, which I think might throw some people off.
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But one thing that really sticks out in this film is Tom Holland's performance, which we'll talk about throughout my section.
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I think he does a remarkable job in this and really did prove himself as a serious actor.
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I'm excited to see if he can do the same in the Odyssey coming out in what next month?
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June?
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It is coming out very soon.
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And yeah, this film stars Spider-Man himself playing a heroin-addicted bank robber, which is a very interesting casting choice.
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But I felt like he was another person who was trying to prove that he could do things outside of the superhero genre.
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And he hasn't done a lot of it since then.
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But I do remember him seeming like he had a really promising dramatic career, and then sort of passing the torch over to Zendaya, and then he just jumped back into Spider-Man stuff.
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He's a good actor.
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I'm really excited for Odyssey and what he does as Odysseus's son.
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But enough chitter-trotter.
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I think it's time for us to get into how this random semi-autobiographical novel turned into a film made by a duo that is responsible for some of the highest-grossing films of all time.
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Hey! Get on the ground! Get on the fucking ground now! One thing about robbing banks is you're mostly robbing women, so the last thing you want to be is rude.
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Ma'am, it's nothing personal.
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And actually, before we dive in, we forgot to announce this is our switcheroo episode.
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The old switcheroo.
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So instead of hearing Remy talk about the movie, it's me.
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I watched Cherry and did all the research for it.
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So buckle up, everyone.
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It's kind of funny.
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We completely forgot to announce that.
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But yeah, this is our annual switcheroo episode.
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I am gonna be on the back half covering the true story.
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And Ashley, it is your turn to take the lead and tell us about the pre-production of Cherry.
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Cherry is a 2021 American crime drama directed by Anthony and Joe Russo, starring Tom Holland and Sierra Bravo.
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Nico Walker's semi-autobiographical novel of the same name was adapted by their sister, Angela Russo Ostett and Jessica Goldberg.
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Oh, so it was a family affair.
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The Russo brothers, who, like Walker, grew up in Cleveland, very close to where Walker grew up, I might add, were introduced to the novel while filming Avengers Endgame in late 2017 and early 2018.
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The book agent we know slipped us this book before its release, uh, and he said, I think you're gonna love this.
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It was set in Cleveland, and I know you guys are big Cleveland guys.
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Uh and Anthony read it without knowing what to expect from it.
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We we knew it was about the opioid crisis, but we did not expect the level of authenticity and truth that we found in the voice in the book.
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And it's very clear that Nico Walker, the author of the book, had gone through uh a very complicated life experience or collection of life experiences.
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And he translated um, you know, his emotional truth into this book.
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And uh it was so profound because this is very personal to us.
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Cleveland uh and the industrial Midwest, in a lot of ways, is ground zero for the opioid crisis.
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There is uh an existential blight that has gripped that part of the country for the last few decades, you know, a creeping sense of trauma that has infiltrated it.
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Uh and uh and we know a lot of people, a lot of family members who are struggling with addiction and uh family members who have died uh from addiction.
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So this was a very personal choice for us to make this movie.
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So, to answer your rhetorical question earlier, they basically chose this movie because they grew up in Cleveland around where Nico Walker grew up, and they had family that had been impacted and died from the opioid epidemic, which is actually why they wanted their sister to write it.
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It was the first movie screenplay she had ever written.
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I can totally relate to that.
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My parents live in upstate New York, and I spent some time there in my teenage years.
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And yeah, I had a lot of friends who dealt with some very serious addiction problems while they were there, and their stories were always ones that I wanted to capture on screen and thought were very worth telling.
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The Russo brothers contacted Walker while he was in prison to negotiate the film rights.
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This proved challenging since he was only allowed to talk on the phone for three minutes at a time.
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Nonetheless, their production company officially purchased the production rights in August 2018, beating out Warner Brothers with James Franco set to direct and Sony Pictures.
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Well, bullet dodged there.
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Yeah, no kidding.
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Per Walker, what set the Russo brothers apart from the others was their commitment to actually making the film.
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Tom Holland was approached to play the title character during an ADR session for Endgame in early 2019.
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Remy, what's an ADR session?
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When they come back in to re-record their lines that they didn't get clearly when they were recording it on set.
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Not long after the film was announced, Bill Skarsgard was cast to play the drug dealer character, but had to drop out because of scheduling conflicts.
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He was replaced by Jack Rayner, the awful boyfriend and bear from Midsummer that Remy dressed up as last Halloween.
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And we just saw him in The Mummy, where he was a slightly less worse husband than his boyfriend.
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I like this actor.
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I'm excited to see what he does.
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He does interesting roles and he's good.
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To prepare for the role, Tom Holland lost 27 pounds, which is a substantial amount for someone who normally clocks in at just 141.
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Oh my god, a gust of wind could have taken him off his feet.
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His weight loss was achieved through exercise, mostly running while wrapped in trash bags to increase his sweat production, and a strict diet of about 500 calories per day.
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That sounds grueling.
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While he was working on losing the weight, he and co-star Sierra Bravo visited a veterans addiction treatment center near the Cleveland set numerous times to learn more about the impact of the opioid crisis.
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Sierra and I sat down and we we interviewed veterans and people who were suffering from substance abuse.
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And it was so enlightening, and I learned so much about a topic I knew very little about.
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And from talking to these people and learning their stories and being so touched that they were able to share such kind of personal and quite frankly horrible experiences that they had been through, I felt a level of responsibility to portray them and portray their life experiences in the most truthful and authentic way possible.
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So for me, it was all about just giving it everything I had and trying my best.
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I must say, we used to joke that Timothy Chalamet got the career Tom Holland wanted.
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But everything I have learned about Tom Holland through this, and actually even before this, just based on interviews and things he said about Zendaya, he seems like such a better guy and someone that would be much more pleasant to be friends with and hang out with than Timothy Chalamet.
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He definitely seems more level-headed.
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I know his parents were in the industry, so he grew up around it.
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So he's been around it his whole life, and for a lot of people that can really mess with your head, but he seems to have stayed very level-headed, and my hat's off to him.
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I hear he's planning to take some time off to be a stay-at-home dad when he and Zendaya have kids, and he seems like a very good guy.
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Filming was supposed to begin in Cleveland on July 15th, 2019, but the Greater Cleveland Film Commission's proposed changes and tax incentives forced the chute to California.
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Not long after, the proposed figures lowered from 100 million to 40 million, which moved filming back to Ohio.
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Why did it get lowered by so much?
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Do you know?
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I couldn't find that out.
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Tax shit.
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Hmm, indeed.
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Production started on October 8th, 2019.
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The film was actually shot in reverse order.
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So all of the scenes where Cherry is addicted to drugs were shot before the scenes he was in Iraq.
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So he had to put on weight as the production went on?
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He had to lose all that weight and then regain it.
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Man, that must have been awful putting his body through that.
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Shooting locations included the North Central Correctional Complex and St.
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Peter Channel High School, which is actually where the Russo's dad went to school before the building was demolished.
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I feel like this film was a bit of a coming home thing for the Russos as well.
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I think they were eager to get back to their hometown and do some filming rather than on a giant sound stage with green screens.
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Similar to the Davids when one of them left to make the death of Dick Long.
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There was so much press interviews for this movie that included Tom Holland, the Russo Brothers, the screenwriters, and Sierra Bravo.
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And you could really tell that they viewed this movie as a statement about the dangers of addiction, a statement about how there needs to be better healthcare for veterans, and really a love letter to their hometown.
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Interestingly, the Russo brothers edited the film as it was being shot, which gave them the opportunity to rewrite and reshoot parts of the script in real time.
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That is unorthodox.
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I used to do that when I was first making films and I didn't have enough money for extra tapes in my camcorder.
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To help Tom Holland, who went on record saying he never did drugs before, much less heroin, accurately portray an addict, a consultant by the name of Brian was on set to coach him through the drug addiction scenes.
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Because the film was shot in reverse order, Holland then had to pack back on the pounds for the Iraq scenes, which were filmed in Morocco while the cast and crew slept in tents set up in the desert.
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Filming wrapped in February 2020.
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And now, Remy, are you ready to sit back, relax, and listen to a summary of the movie Cherry?
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I'm locked and loaded.
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Let's go.
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This is the first of seven parts, all of which start with a title against a bright red backdrop.
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Twenty-three-year-old Cherry, played by Tom Holland, is driving a pickup truck, and through internal dialogue, it sounds like he's stuck in life, directionless.
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He walks up to an unseen man in a black car and says he will meet him in the parking lot in three minutes.
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While narrating his thoughts, he drives to a bank, tells us why he chose his outfit, pulls a scarf over his face, storms in, and screams that he's a wanted man.
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After pointing a gun at a frightened teller and instructing her to hand over the money, sadness overcomes him.
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Part one When life was beginning, I saw you 2002.
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We flash back to when Cherry first lays eyes on Emily, played by Sierra Bravo, in a crowded lecture hall.
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She chats him up outside where Cherry tells her he's still in a relationship with his high school girlfriend Madison, who he promised to visit that weekend.
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Madison is clearly the more dominant one in the relationship.
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Even though they've only been at their respective schools for a month, every guy on campus seems to know who she is.
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At a party, she grabs a rando's hand and dances suggestively with him while Cherry watches from a distance.
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Back in New Jersey, we meet James Lightfoot, played by Forrest Goodluck, Cherry's best friend since grade school.
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James's parents died young, and his older brother was never the same after he returned home from the war.
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On the way to the bank, James picks up Roy, played by Kyle Harvey, who is, I guess, often known by his stage name, Super Duper Kyle.
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Oh yeah, Super Duper Kyle.
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And his cousin Joe, which on IMDV, that's the name of the character, Cousin Joe.
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Played by young Tony Soprano himself, Michael Gandalfini.
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Hey, I do not remember him being in this film.
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I've seen a few things he's been in since this.
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He's a good actor.
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Roy is pissed because Cousin Joe joined the Marines, and nothing anyone can say will change his mind.
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After Cherry comes out of the bank after unsuccessfully trying to reverse a series of overdraft fees, James's car is on fire, forcing the dejected bunch to make the long trek home on foot.
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The next day, Cherry heads off to sell some of his Xanax, which he gets for panic attacks.
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He trades the pills for some ecstasy and is invited to a mid-afternoon house party, where Emily just so happens to be sitting in a front yard tree swing.
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She notices he's rolling immediately.
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Why is that?
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Um, because I like you a lot.
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Shut up.
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I really do.
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And you're jacked, it's really cool.
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Whoa.
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And um what?
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Oh, I was thinking, what are you thinking?
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Just thinking that you're shady.
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So he's just rolling balls in the middle of the day, apparently?
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I mean, the sun was shining outside.
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That was my thought too when I was watching this, because there's like a party going on.
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So not only is he rolling in the middle of the day, people are partying.
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What I told myself is maybe it's the end of daylight savings time, so maybe it's like seven o'clock.
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I don't know.
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Suspend belief.
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People do have parties during the day in college, but taking ecstasy during the day seems like a strange choice.
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Emily and Cherry do spend the evening together, and their relationship quickly blossoms, portrayed by a series of clips of them together all around town.
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One night, Emily tells Cherry how she discovered her dad was having an affair, which has caused her to question if love truly exists.
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He decides this is the most opportune moment to declare his love for her.
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She rebuts with a heartfelt thank you.
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Not long after, Emily breaks up with him because she plans to transfer to a school in Canada at the end of the semester.
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I really want to go to school in Canada.
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What?
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Since when there's this uh this really great school in Montreal.
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In Montreal?
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Yeah, Paris of Canada.
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Yeah, I know what it fucking is.
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Please tell me that you're kidding.
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This isn't funny.
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Why would I be kidding you?
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So what that's it.
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We're just supposed to break up just like that.
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Well, we can't exactly be together when we live in two different countries.
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So Emily, what the fuck?
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I know nothing about Canada, much less Montreal.
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Is it really the Paris of the country?
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I have been to Montreal, and no offense to Canada, but I would definitely not call it the Paris of Canada.
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A devastated Cherry decides to enlist in the army, searching for something good to do with his life.
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Back home, James once again tries to convince Cousin Joe not to deploy.
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Emily calls, asking Cherry if she can say goodbye before she leaves for Canada.
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He tells her to come by the restaurant he works at while he's bartending an event that night.
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He's throned when she arrives with a guy from Ghana and tells her to just leave.
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Sidebar, Cherry's boss in this scene is played by co-director Joe Russo.
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He pops up in a lot of the films.
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I know he had a brief part at the beginning of Avengers Endgame as well.
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Emily is waiting in Cherry's room when he gets home that night.
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She apologizes for the breakup and has decided to stay.
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The only reason she wanted to leave in the first place because she was in love with him and afraid.
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Her bubble is burst when Cherry informs her he enlisted in the army because he was sad about the breakup.
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He encourages her to go to Montreal while he's away.
00:21:47.349 --> 00:21:50.949
After that, they can spend the rest of their lives together.
00:21:50.949 --> 00:21:55.029
They marry at the courthouse before he leaves for basic training.
00:21:55.029 --> 00:21:59.029
Part 2 BASIC 2003.
00:21:59.029 --> 00:22:05.589
At Basic Training, all the incoming recruits get their heads shaved, vaccines, and medical screenings.
00:22:05.589 --> 00:22:12.629
During the latter, Cherry learns he's colorblind, but that doesn't disqualify him from becoming a medic.
00:22:12.629 --> 00:22:23.990
Sidebar, Tom Holland's head was shaved throughout the duration of filming, so whenever he has hair in prior and later scenes, he's actually wearing a toupee that he kept.
00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:26.949
Objection withholding information.
00:22:26.949 --> 00:22:35.669
You completely skipped over the scene where it's a POV shot from Tom Holland's butthole when he is getting checked out by the doctors for his physical.
00:22:35.669 --> 00:22:39.189
That is a scene that is permanently burned into my brain.
00:22:39.189 --> 00:22:41.750
And you wanted to just skip right on over it?
00:22:41.750 --> 00:22:42.389
No.
00:22:42.389 --> 00:22:46.789
We need to at least acknowledge that scene exists in this movie.
00:22:47.109 --> 00:23:02.069
Moving on! After getting his uniform, Cherry befriends fellow medic in training Jimenez, played by Jeff Wahlberg, who enlisted after learning his girlfriend was pregnant to try to get money to support his soon-to-be family.
00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:18.869
What follows is a series of scenes of drill sergeants verbally and at times physically accosting the recruits while they are put through a variety of strenuous athletic drills, causing Cherry to become increasingly disillusioned with his newfound career path.
00:23:18.869 --> 00:23:27.669
And just so you all know, in the clip I'm about to play, there's gonna be some pauses, and that's because YouTube has edited out all of the swears.
00:23:28.949 --> 00:23:33.829
Look at you, you fing weak flip! You ain't shit!
00:23:35.589 --> 00:23:36.389
There's a lot of you!
00:23:37.669 --> 00:23:51.990
Move! Move! Let's go! They call his names like you f with! Our hands were Those are goddamn skinners!
00:23:52.389 --> 00:23:54.389
Our mouths were COLCH!
00:23:54.629 --> 00:23:56.869
You shut down the COFCER!
00:23:57.269 --> 00:24:09.269
Okay, does anyone else think that it's sorta weird that they allowed the words fuck and shit and pisshole, but the only words that they bleeped out in that was the word dick.
00:24:09.269 --> 00:24:10.710
And cock.
00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:16.710
Yeah, but still, seems kinda weird that that is where the line is drawn on YouTube.
00:24:17.109 --> 00:24:22.149
I didn't even realize that, and I watched that scene I think two times before this.
00:24:22.149 --> 00:24:23.509
Yeah, I didn't notice.
00:24:23.509 --> 00:24:24.549
Good point.
00:24:24.549 --> 00:24:35.509
Part three Cherry In Iraq, Cherry and Jimenez are riding along in a Humvee squad trailing a slew of helicopters.
00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:42.230
A frenzied voice comes on the radio requesting immediate assistance during a coordinated enemy attack.
00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:45.269
The war zone is absolute chaos.
00:24:45.269 --> 00:24:49.750
Humvees on fire, bullets flying from all angles.
00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:56.629
Another soldier instructs Cherry and Jimenez to follow him through heavy fire towards two wounded men.
00:24:56.629 --> 00:25:07.189
Once there, Cherry is ordered to quote, get his guts back in and helps carry the man to a helicopter as the sound of gunfire fades away.
00:25:07.189 --> 00:25:15.990
Back at the base, Cherry showers off the dust, grime, and blood from the day while Jimenez debriefs with his fellow soldiers.
00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:24.470
Cherry asks Sergeant Green, played by Adam Long, if it's true that the man he tried so desperately to save died.
00:25:24.470 --> 00:25:30.549
Sergeant Green doesn't confirm or deny the news, instead telling him to not worry about it.
00:25:30.549 --> 00:25:37.589
Through voiceover, Cherry tells us he's stationed in and assigned to patrol the triangle of death.
00:25:37.589 --> 00:25:47.750
Despite the ominous name, most days he feels like a quote, glorified scarecrow, not really having anything to do other than look busy.
00:25:47.750 --> 00:25:55.669
Their patrol route often takes them through a small Iraqi village where kids run up to the trucks trying to get whatever they can.
00:25:55.669 --> 00:26:09.509
The day-to-day monotony is interrupted by a Christmas Day performance from the Denver Mustang cheerleaders, whose uniforms look exactly like the outfits from the Jingle Bell Rock Diddy and Mingrols.
00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:17.029
Sometime later, Cherry gets a call from Emily and learns his parents have offered to help them buy a house.
00:26:17.029 --> 00:26:24.789
Another duty of Cherry's squad is to provide emergency medical care to the Iraqi residents stationed around the area.
00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:30.789
In the background, his fellow soldiers shout racist remarks I dare not repeat.
00:26:30.789 --> 00:26:38.949
An older man shows Cherry his severely damaged hand, which the interpreter says happened two days ago while he was zip tied.
00:26:38.949 --> 00:26:49.269
Cherry takes the man to Sergeant North, played by Theo Barlin Biggs, and asks how he can help the man since they are out of antibiotics.
00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:51.269
Sergeant North's advice?
00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:53.750
Tell him to go eat shit and die.
00:26:53.750 --> 00:27:02.230
Cherry carefully wraps the man's hand and counsels the interpreter on the importance of getting him to a hospital with antibiotics.
00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:10.389
On the way home, Cherry's squad drives through the same village of little children, one of which he nicknames Pebbles because of her outfit.
00:27:10.710 --> 00:27:12.789
Like Pebbles from the Flintstones.
00:27:13.029 --> 00:27:17.509
He hands her a package that is immediately stolen by the other children.
00:27:17.509 --> 00:27:25.109
That night, Cherry bonds with Jimenez through jokes and longing stories of the women waiting for them back home.
00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:36.710
On a drive through the desert sometime later, Cherry advises Sergeant North that they probably should stay on the assigned road rather than taking the shorter, less explored route.
00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:42.549
Sergeant North ignores this advice, causing one of the vehicles to get stuck in the mud.
00:27:42.549 --> 00:27:49.509
He once again ignores Cherry's advice to just wait for help, since that would take several hours.
00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:57.029
Instead, he sends a group, which includes Cherry's buddy Jimenez, back to the base to get the supplies they need.
00:27:57.029 --> 00:28:03.750
Almost immediately, the vehicle drives over an IED, instantly killing everyone inside.
00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:11.029
Cherry sprints to the truck, collapses in a daze, and stares at his burned friends.
00:28:11.029 --> 00:28:18.869
Sidebar, Tom Holland pulled a Tom Cruise during this scene and ran so fast that he injured his ankle.
00:28:19.189 --> 00:28:21.750
Do you know if that's the take that they used on screen?
00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:29.189
I know it's like an unwritten Hollywood rule that if you injure yourself and still finish the scene and it looks good enough, they try to keep it.
00:28:29.429 --> 00:28:30.230
I'm not sure.
00:28:30.230 --> 00:28:43.189
I learned this fact because there is an interview on YouTube, a GQ interview where Tom Holland watches scenes and talks about the movie, and he said that he injured his ankle during that scene, so I assume so.
00:28:43.189 --> 00:28:55.429
Once a much kinder superior arrives, Cherry tells him the names of each of his comrades and helps carry them into body bags, even when his gloves start melting.
00:28:55.429 --> 00:29:02.629
Pebbles tries to get his attention on the way back to the base, but he's unable to give her a second glance.
00:29:02.629 --> 00:29:11.189
He tries to hold it together on the phone with Emily, a scene of which is interspersed with numerous battle sequences.
00:29:11.189 --> 00:29:13.909
He sobs the second he hangs up.
00:29:13.909 --> 00:29:16.549
This scene is really, really heart-wrenching.
00:29:16.549 --> 00:29:22.949
She's just talking to him and he is just trying to put off a facade that it's all okay.
00:29:22.949 --> 00:29:26.789
And Tom Holland is remarkable in this part.
00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:35.509
He is trying so hard to not completely break down, and then it's kind of one of those scenes where it's a quick hang up and he just lets it all out.
00:29:35.509 --> 00:29:37.509
It is really moving.
00:29:37.509 --> 00:29:41.669
Part four Home 2005.
00:29:41.669 --> 00:29:50.389
Cherry arrives home to a crowded gym, cheers, and the Medal of Valor, a commendation he doesn't think he's earned.
00:29:50.389 --> 00:29:55.829
After two years apart, Emily enthusiastically jumps into his arms.
00:29:55.829 --> 00:30:00.789
They drive to their home in Ohio, and Cherry starts taking night classes.
00:30:00.789 --> 00:30:09.990
During the day, he works construction with Cousin Joe, who is also having a hard time adjusting back to normal life after his time in the Marine Corps.
00:30:09.990 --> 00:30:21.909
During an argument with his girlfriend about his drinking habits, of which Emily and Cherry were in the backseat, Cousin Joe opens the door and flings himself out of the vehicle.
00:30:21.909 --> 00:30:24.549
He has a smile on his face as he dies.
00:30:24.549 --> 00:30:25.589
He dies?
00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:29.509
It's not explicitly stated in the movie.
00:30:29.509 --> 00:30:31.909
It just kind of zooms in on his face.
00:30:31.909 --> 00:30:34.069
His eyes are open and he has a smile.
00:30:34.069 --> 00:30:41.990
But when I was looking at a summary of the movie on Wikipedia, it says he dies and he's not in the movie again after this.
00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:44.309
That is unexpected.
00:30:44.629 --> 00:30:46.789
And Cherry isn't boating much better.
00:30:46.789 --> 00:30:56.389
He can't sleep, has extreme nightmares, and becomes extremely irate at the most minor inconvenience, like burnt toast.
00:30:56.389 --> 00:31:01.990
Before date night with Emily, he takes a handful of Xanax and starts drinking.
00:31:01.990 --> 00:31:09.189
At the theater, he becomes enraged at a group of men he thinks are dressed too casually.
00:31:10.629 --> 00:31:12.069
Are we the only ones dressed up?
00:31:14.549 --> 00:31:15.429
Doesn't matter.
00:31:15.429 --> 00:31:17.750
Didn't notice.
00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:27.109
Yeah, I'm talking to you.
00:31:27.109 --> 00:31:28.149
What's your problem, dude?
00:31:28.149 --> 00:31:29.029
Dude, what's your problem?
00:31:29.029 --> 00:31:33.750
My problem's the fact you didn't even have the decency to take off your LL bean before you came from the fucking golf.
00:31:34.629 --> 00:31:35.269
Please be quiet.
00:31:35.750 --> 00:31:36.549
Fuck that motherfucker.
00:31:36.549 --> 00:31:37.750
I'd really like to go back.
00:31:37.750 --> 00:31:38.949
No, babe, we're not going anywhere.
00:31:39.269 --> 00:31:40.949
I would really like to leave.
00:31:41.589 --> 00:31:43.829
I have something to add to this.
00:31:43.829 --> 00:31:56.149
Having researched the real Nico Walker, his mother actually instilled in him at a very, very young age that dressing nice was really something that you were supposed to do.
00:31:56.149 --> 00:32:01.990
So he took pride in how he dressed, especially later in life after he got off drugs.
00:32:01.990 --> 00:32:09.109
But this is something that was really important to his mother, and clearly that's how it's being represented in the film.
00:32:09.429 --> 00:32:19.109
Cherry retreats to the bathroom, punches the mirror, quickly escorts Emily out with his bleeding hand, and takes more Xanax at home.
00:32:19.429 --> 00:32:23.109
I have one question that I forgot to ask during the army portion.
00:32:23.109 --> 00:32:26.149
Was he using drugs while he was in the military?
00:32:26.149 --> 00:32:27.750
Did it show that at all?
00:32:28.069 --> 00:32:28.389
No.
00:32:28.389 --> 00:32:30.710
He starts taking Xanax when he gets home.
00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:36.629
He already had that prescription, and we're about to get into his oxycontin addiction.
00:32:36.949 --> 00:32:39.109
Okay, just wanted to make sure.
00:32:39.349 --> 00:32:42.470
I don't even think he took Xanax when he was in the military, right?
00:32:42.470 --> 00:32:54.710
He had the prescription before he went, and then he comes back clearly with PTSD and still has his prescription and just starts taking it to numb himself, basically, and to be able to sleep.
00:32:54.710 --> 00:33:05.269
We then learn that on the same night of the disastrous date, Cherry's pal James Lightfoot, tried to welcome him home by sneaking into his house.
00:33:05.269 --> 00:33:08.389
Unfortunately for James, he got the address wrong.
00:33:08.389 --> 00:33:17.109
He's arrested for breaking and entering with a large bag of oxycontin, a drug he's become addicted to since Cherry was away.
00:33:17.509 --> 00:33:24.710
So he just wandered into some random person's home with a pocket full of drugs and got arrested?
00:33:25.029 --> 00:33:27.109
He broke in through the window.
00:33:27.429 --> 00:33:31.909
I don't think any surprise is worth breaking somebody's window.
00:33:32.230 --> 00:33:33.829
I don't think he broke the window.
00:33:33.829 --> 00:33:35.829
He just entered in through the window.
00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:39.349
But yeah, like knock on the front door to say hi to your friend, dude.
00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:43.349
I'd be pissed if my friend broke in by opening my window.
00:33:43.669 --> 00:33:45.750
And he's living with his wife at this point.
00:33:45.750 --> 00:33:52.789
He could have actually probably arranged this with the person's partner before just taking it upon himself to do so.
00:33:53.109 --> 00:33:55.990
I chalk it up to drug addict logic.
00:33:55.990 --> 00:34:03.669
After Cherry bails James out of jail, he starts spending a lot of time at Cherry's house.
00:34:03.669 --> 00:34:09.269
To help soothe Cherry's Xanax withdrawal, James offers him a pain pill.
00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:15.909
Not long after, Cherry goes to psychiatrist, Doctor Womever at Emily's urging.
00:34:16.230 --> 00:34:18.869
This is a recurring thing that happens in the movie, right?
00:34:18.869 --> 00:34:23.909
Whenever it's a doctor, it just kind of says doctor whatever, doctor so-and-so, stuff like that.
00:34:24.230 --> 00:34:32.549
This is the only doctor, but yes, a lot of the bank names, which I'll get into, are like Bank Fucks America.
00:34:32.549 --> 00:34:35.670
It's all like really sarcastic names.
00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:46.389
A couple of the sergeants that are in that scene when they're screaming at the recruits' faces, they also have sarcastic names like that.
00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:54.549
Cherry rates his pain as a nine out of ten and walks out of the appointment with his own Oxycon prescription.
00:34:54.549 --> 00:35:00.230
What a great psychiatrist! And really not doing anything about this guy's PTSD.
00:35:00.230 --> 00:35:02.469
And Cherry is not hiding his PTSD.
00:35:02.469 --> 00:35:11.750
He is saying he's having all these symptoms and also pain because he is withdrawing from Xanax because he is overusing his prescription.
00:35:11.989 --> 00:35:17.509
It does seem odd that they would prescribe him oxycotton for this situation.
00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:19.429
So he just said he was in pain.
00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:21.909
And remember, this is like 2007.
00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:27.029
This is at the height or the beginning of when oxycontin was really on the market.
00:35:27.029 --> 00:35:32.949
So doctors were prescribing that shit left and right because they were getting kickbacks from Big Pharma to do so.
00:35:32.949 --> 00:35:34.869
So Cherry said he's in pain.
00:35:34.869 --> 00:35:36.469
They have a magic pill for that.
00:35:36.789 --> 00:35:40.389
So this was during the making of the opioid crisis.
00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:41.269
Exactly.
00:35:41.269 --> 00:35:46.789
Which is kind of again why the Russo brothers really gravitated towards making the film.
00:35:46.789 --> 00:35:51.590
As Cherry's addiction escalates, so too does Emily's frustration.
00:35:51.590 --> 00:36:00.630
During a heated argument, she takes a handful of his pills, later telling him she wishes she never told him she was going to Montreal.
00:36:01.509 --> 00:36:02.069
Fine.
00:36:02.069 --> 00:36:05.590
These are for me now.
00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:15.110
Because I would love, I would love a break from all of this shit.
00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:19.829
Fuck! Yeah.
00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:26.869
And this, Cherry tells us, is how they became addicts.
00:36:27.190 --> 00:36:37.750
I gotta say, I don't think I've seen this actress, Sierra Bravo, in anything else, but she is really, really good in this scene you just showed me.
00:36:38.069 --> 00:36:39.829
She is good throughout this movie.
00:36:39.829 --> 00:36:44.549
There is a scene that I'm gonna play next where she is great in it.
00:36:44.549 --> 00:36:58.150
And whoever this consultant Brian was that was teaching Holland and Bravo how to believably go through withdrawal and shakes and stuff like that, that guy deserves an Oscar.
00:36:58.150 --> 00:37:02.069
These two do a really, really great job in this movie.
00:37:02.069 --> 00:37:06.389
And it was really cute watching the interviews of Tom Holland.
00:37:06.389 --> 00:37:17.349
He just sings her praises, basically saying they became very close and he couldn't have given the performance he did or even have survived during the filming of this movie without her.
00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:25.750
When you're going through really emotional, intense scenes like this, it helps to have a great supportive scene partner there with you.
00:37:26.069 --> 00:37:33.269
Part 5 Dope Life Emily and Cherry tumble quickly into the throes of addiction.
00:37:33.269 --> 00:37:43.670
Emily shoots up before class and tells Cherry it's imperative he get to campus at 5 o'clock with her next fix since she has to stay late on Tuesdays.
00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:52.389
Now out of money, Cherry asks his dealer, Pills and Coke, played by Midsummer's Jack Reiner, for a loan.
00:37:52.389 --> 00:38:02.150
He agrees to loan him 80 bucks if he picks up a safe with unknown contents from a guy named Buckeye and stores it at his house for a little bit.
00:38:02.549 --> 00:38:04.869
That's not shady at all.
00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:14.469
Cherry shoots up immediately after getting home and 15 minutes later calls James to come over to try to crack the code to the safe.
00:38:14.469 --> 00:38:17.989
When that doesn't work, they try other methods.
00:38:17.989 --> 00:38:30.630
Throwing it out the second story window, attaching it to the bumper of his truck, and speeding down the road, and repeatedly hitting it with a crowbar, the latter of which proves successful.
00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:33.269
Hitting it with a crowbar worked?
00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:41.750
My only guess is it had already been damaged from the other means that the crowbar was enough to just finish it off.
00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:43.590
Well, what was inside?
00:38:43.989 --> 00:38:46.869
A treasure trove of drugs.
00:38:46.869 --> 00:38:52.230
That's not good because I don't think Cherry has a lot of self-control.
00:38:52.710 --> 00:38:54.630
No, he doesn't.
00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:57.190
Neither does Emily and James.
00:38:57.190 --> 00:39:05.750
The trio is passed out when they are awoken to pounding on the door by someone shouting, This is the police.
00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:17.190
Cherry and Emily frantically flush everything down the toilet, only to realize the unexpected visitor is Pills and Coke messing with them.
00:39:17.509 --> 00:39:21.269
Oh my god, I would fucking kill those guys.
00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:22.789
That's not a funny joke.
00:39:23.110 --> 00:39:25.670
Uh, Remy, I think we have a little confusion here.
00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:27.590
Pills and Coke is one person.
00:39:27.590 --> 00:39:28.549
That's Midsummer.
00:39:29.029 --> 00:39:33.029
Wait, so his full street name is Pills and Coke?
00:39:33.029 --> 00:39:35.429
I thought there was a guy named Pills and a guy named Coke.
00:39:35.429 --> 00:39:36.389
They're the same guy?
00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:37.590
It's the same guy.
00:39:37.590 --> 00:39:44.469
That's what he's named in the movie, going off of the sarcastic names that we discussed earlier.
00:39:44.949 --> 00:39:47.429
That is not his name in the book.
00:39:47.750 --> 00:39:53.590
Well, Pills and Coke is in good spirits until he sees the busted empty safe.
00:39:53.590 --> 00:40:06.469
Turns out the safe was owned by a much more ominous drug dealer named Black, who's going to kill all four of them unless they quickly come up with a lot of cash.
00:40:06.469 --> 00:40:08.069
Cherry has a plan.
00:40:08.869 --> 00:40:10.869
How much cash did he need to get together?
00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:16.469
It didn't say, but this is a standard size safe, and when they open it, it was filled with drugs.
00:40:16.469 --> 00:40:20.150
And they did a bunch and then flushed everything down the toilet.
00:40:20.150 --> 00:40:21.750
So a lot.
00:40:21.750 --> 00:40:24.230
Cherry's plan is this.
00:40:24.230 --> 00:40:37.989
Without any sort of disguise, he walks into a bank and sets down a one dollar bill with the words I have a gun written on one side and this is a robbery on the other.
00:40:37.989 --> 00:40:47.750
He walks out with a lot of money and hands two large stacks of cash to Pills and Coke and celebrates with Emily over Subway.
00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:52.309
This is actually common protocol for most banks during a robbery.
00:40:52.309 --> 00:41:03.269
If someone comes in, asks for the money and saying it's a robbery, even through a note, they are instructed to hand them the cash and not really make it into a big scene so nobody gets hurt.
00:41:03.670 --> 00:41:05.509
And it's all insured anyway.
00:41:05.829 --> 00:41:08.869
And this is the most common form of bank robberies.
00:41:08.869 --> 00:41:14.869
Literally, people walking in and handing the teller a note saying, I have a gun, give me the cash.
00:41:15.190 --> 00:41:25.590
Later that night, James calls to ask Cherry if he robbed a bank because there's a story online, and it has a sketch that looks eerily similar to him.
00:41:25.909 --> 00:41:27.909
It's a police sketch in the film.
00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:36.949
I think there might also be some video surveillance footage of him, but it's not like of his face straight on, it's kind of of him looking down.
00:41:36.949 --> 00:41:42.869
But the website had those kind of side footages and a police sketch.
00:41:42.869 --> 00:41:47.750
After this, Cherry decides it would be best to lay low for a while.
00:41:47.750 --> 00:41:51.670
Well, until he and Emily start going through withdrawal.
00:41:58.150 --> 00:42:01.590
Until the money's gone, and when the dope's gone, you get sick.
00:42:01.590 --> 00:42:04.230
At which point you need to find more money.
00:42:04.469 --> 00:42:06.949
Go rob another fucking bag.
00:42:09.029 --> 00:42:13.269
In the book, this is the exact cycle that they are going through.
00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:19.269
Literally, they will get high, it'll last a couple hours, and they'll need to go get more.
00:42:19.269 --> 00:42:23.509
And it just keeps on going like that, day after day after day.
00:42:23.509 --> 00:42:25.909
I cannot imagine living like this.
00:42:26.230 --> 00:42:33.429
Cherry repeats the same method, this time wearing sunglasses, and thanks to the teller for her cooperation.
00:42:33.750 --> 00:42:36.069
Well, that's nice, at least he's being hospitable.
00:42:36.309 --> 00:42:38.150
He's a very polite bank robber.
00:42:38.469 --> 00:42:42.630
He's even more polite in real life than he is in the film, but I'll get into that.
00:42:42.949 --> 00:42:48.630
Several more robberies follow, none of which is ever enough to get Cherry out of debt.
00:42:48.630 --> 00:42:54.469
During one of the runs, Pills and Coke reluctantly agrees to be the getaway driver.
00:42:54.469 --> 00:43:00.549
That night, an irate Emily storms in saying she had to leave class early.
00:43:00.549 --> 00:43:04.389
She shot herself because Cherry wasn't there at 5 p.m.
00:43:04.389 --> 00:43:05.429
as usual.
00:43:05.829 --> 00:43:12.710
Wait, so this is implying that if she doesn't get her fix, she will defecate on herself immediately.
00:43:13.029 --> 00:43:21.590
So remember earlier how she said you have to come to campus at 5 because I have to stay late on Tuesdays.
00:43:21.590 --> 00:43:23.190
It was Tuesday.
00:43:23.190 --> 00:43:28.789
She was going through withdrawal so heavily that she shot herself and had to leave.
00:43:28.789 --> 00:43:34.710
Cherry comforts her by injecting her with heroin since she is too shaky to do it herself.
00:43:35.029 --> 00:43:38.389
Something he learned how to do in the army in the book.
00:43:38.389 --> 00:43:44.389
He learned how to inject other people with morphine and things like that if they were injured.
00:43:44.869 --> 00:43:47.190
Okay, that would make sense, because yes, he was a medic.
00:43:47.190 --> 00:43:49.909
They didn't show that, but that tracks.
00:43:49.909 --> 00:43:55.349
Well, unfortunately, that night Emily overdoses and is rushed to the hospital.
00:43:55.349 --> 00:44:01.590
Once stabilized, her mother says if he truly loves her, he'll walk away.
00:44:01.590 --> 00:44:05.670
Cherry retreats to the parking lot to shoot up and starts violently.
00:44:05.670 --> 00:44:11.750
Violently stabbing himself in the thigh over and over and over again.
00:44:11.750 --> 00:44:13.029
With what?
00:44:13.029 --> 00:44:15.590
The needle he used to shoot up with.
00:44:15.590 --> 00:44:17.029
Oh my God.
00:44:17.029 --> 00:44:22.469
It's another like crazy performance by Tom Holland and sidebar.
00:44:22.469 --> 00:44:27.269
He actually banged his nose during the scene, so the blood on his face is real.
00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:29.029
He insisted they keep filming.
00:44:29.349 --> 00:44:30.630
That's dedication, man.
00:44:30.630 --> 00:44:36.069
I always admire actors when they injure themselves and they finish the scene anyway.
00:44:36.069 --> 00:44:37.909
It's usually the best take.
00:44:38.150 --> 00:44:42.069
Emily is sent to rehab after she is discharged from the hospital.
00:44:42.069 --> 00:44:49.190
Cherry is waiting for her at the bus station when she returns and urges her to go back because he's not good for her.
00:44:49.190 --> 00:44:50.549
She refuses.
00:44:50.549 --> 00:44:53.909
She's gonna get high with or without him.
00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:57.829
So the two return home and resume life as normal.
00:44:57.829 --> 00:45:04.069
When it comes time for another robbery, Cherry tries to get James to help him for 10%.
00:45:04.069 --> 00:45:13.190
He enters the bank and immediately shoots into the ceiling, causing James to turn around and immediately flee.
00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:14.869
Cherry follows.
00:45:15.269 --> 00:45:21.750
Wait, so he just unloaded a couple of rounds into the ceiling, his friend left, and he left too?
00:45:21.989 --> 00:45:26.309
He did one shot into the ceiling, James books it, and Cherry follows.
00:45:26.710 --> 00:45:31.509
Leaving everyone in the bank staring at one another, thinking, What the fuck was that?
00:45:32.150 --> 00:45:38.710
And in the car, Pills and Coke agrees to swap places with James if he can get the gun.
00:45:38.710 --> 00:45:52.549
Immediately after walking into Bank Fucks America, unclear if this is the same bank or a different one, Pills and Coke fires the gun at a glass window and walks out after flipping Cherry the bird.
00:45:52.549 --> 00:45:53.509
Why?
00:45:53.509 --> 00:46:01.750
So he was getting second thoughts as they were walking in because he took a Kalana pin before, which is a benzo, because he was anxious.
00:46:01.750 --> 00:46:10.230
So I think after he fired the gun and it just shattered this window, he was just like, I'm not in the right state to do this, and walks out.
00:46:10.549 --> 00:46:13.349
Yeah, but he flipped off Cherry on his way out.
00:46:13.349 --> 00:46:15.590
That's kind of a dick move as well.
00:46:15.829 --> 00:46:18.150
Cherry's yelling at him like, What the fuck are you doing?
00:46:18.150 --> 00:46:18.789
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:18.789 --> 00:46:20.069
So he does that.
00:46:20.069 --> 00:46:24.710
There might be another reason why he walked out, which I'll get to in a second.
00:46:24.710 --> 00:46:31.509
Either way, Cherry finishes the robbery and races back to the car as money is falling out of his pants.
00:46:31.509 --> 00:46:40.230
And despite the police already being on the way, he convinces James to go back for Pills and Coke out of fear that if he's caught, he'll rat them out.
00:46:40.230 --> 00:46:46.389
They find Pills and Coke slowly walking down the sidewalk and pull him into the car.
00:46:46.389 --> 00:46:52.069
Inside, he shows Cherry an entry gunshot wound in his stomach.
00:46:52.069 --> 00:46:53.750
There is no exit wound.
00:46:53.750 --> 00:46:58.789
Cherry briefly tells James to drive to the hospital, but James won't.
00:46:58.789 --> 00:46:59.989
He's too scared.
00:46:59.989 --> 00:47:05.670
Pills and Coke starts to fade, quietly pleading to be taken to the hospital.
00:47:05.670 --> 00:47:11.509
Cherry's quiet while James just cries and repeatedly apologizes.
00:47:11.509 --> 00:47:20.630
They dump his body under an overpass, taking his drugs, watch, shoes, and socks before driving away.
00:47:20.630 --> 00:47:23.110
We never learn how he was shot.
00:47:23.110 --> 00:47:30.949
My theory is that he shot the window and it ricocheted off something, hit him in the stomach, and that's why he left.
00:47:30.949 --> 00:47:32.869
That's really the only thing that makes sense.
00:47:32.869 --> 00:47:37.349
If he was shot by a police officer, he would have been arrested.
00:47:37.349 --> 00:47:41.829
I don't think a random bystander would have shot him and he would have just kept sauntering down.
00:47:41.829 --> 00:47:43.349
It had to have been that.
00:47:43.349 --> 00:47:50.069
Also in this scene, I get why they take the drugs and the watch, maybe even the shoes if they're nice, but his socks?
00:47:50.309 --> 00:47:51.029
Thank you.
00:47:51.029 --> 00:47:53.909
I was going to say the exact same thing.
00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:57.190
Why the hell would you need his socks?
00:47:57.429 --> 00:48:02.949
And they don't show him taking his wallet, which he would want to take for identification purposes.
00:48:02.949 --> 00:48:05.029
It was really weird to me, but whatever.
00:48:05.029 --> 00:48:07.429
Drug logic again, I guess.
00:48:07.429 --> 00:48:13.110
Sometime later, Cherry wakes up on a park bench with a needle still in his arm.
00:48:13.110 --> 00:48:20.549
While walking home with Emily and their dog, he spots the same ominous black car from the opening scene.
00:48:20.549 --> 00:48:27.509
After ushering Emily inside, he asks the man if they can go somewhere else if the plan is to shoot him.
00:48:27.509 --> 00:48:32.630
The heavily tatted guy says, Why would I shoot you?
00:48:32.630 --> 00:48:35.429
That would prevent me from getting my money back.
00:48:35.429 --> 00:48:41.909
It becomes clear that this is Black, the drug dealer Cherry still owes money to.
00:48:41.909 --> 00:48:51.269
Cherry says he can't go on like this anymore, but after Emily is mentioned, he agrees to go along with the plan after he gets his fix.
00:48:51.269 --> 00:48:58.230
Inside, he lays next to an incoherent Emily and tells her Black is gonna drive him to the next job.
00:48:58.230 --> 00:49:03.190
Barely conscious, she asks if he'll shoot her up before he leaves.
00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:07.670
He covers her with a blanket and agrees to do so when he returns.
00:49:07.670 --> 00:49:15.509
Cherry drives to Credit None Bank and notices the fear in the teller's eyes once she slides him the money.
00:49:15.509 --> 00:49:19.670
He removes the scarf covering from his face and asks for a favor.
00:49:19.670 --> 00:49:21.670
Hit the silent alarm.
00:49:21.670 --> 00:49:37.590
He thanks her, walks out holding the money, throws it at Black at their designated meeting spot, fires his gun in the middle of the street, tosses it aside, and injects drugs into a vein in his foot while seated on the curb.
00:49:37.590 --> 00:49:41.750
Two cop cars pull up, but he's too high to notice.
00:49:42.069 --> 00:49:43.829
So he had just had enough.
00:49:44.309 --> 00:49:47.190
I think he viewed it as his only way out.
00:49:47.190 --> 00:49:54.309
I think he saw this woman and for the first time realized like, what am I doing?
00:49:54.309 --> 00:49:58.309
I am causing so much psychological pain to all these people.
00:49:58.309 --> 00:50:00.230
I'm never gonna get out of this.
00:50:00.230 --> 00:50:02.150
I just gotta stop.
00:50:02.949 --> 00:50:09.029
He realized he wasn't the person he wanted to be and he wasn't living the life he wanted to live.
00:50:09.349 --> 00:50:14.069
Epilogue 2007 to 2021.
00:50:14.069 --> 00:50:18.389
Cherry is a violently withdrawing in a holding cell.
00:50:18.389 --> 00:50:22.230
The next scenes show his daily prison routine.
00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:34.389
The passage of time is illustrated by the growing length of his hair and his participation in a drug and alcohol class, changing from one of a quiet observer to the group leader.
00:50:34.389 --> 00:50:37.909
In 2021, he's granted parole.
00:50:37.909 --> 00:50:45.429
After walking through the prison gate, he stops, twirling his wedding ring as he watches it slowly close.
00:50:45.429 --> 00:50:51.349
He's alone for a moment with nothing but his thoughts until Emily steps out of the car.
00:50:51.349 --> 00:50:55.190
And that is the Russo Brothers Cherry.
00:50:55.190 --> 00:50:56.309
What'd you think, Remy?
00:50:57.190 --> 00:51:21.750
There was definitely a lot about this film that I had completely forgotten about, but it seems like the main focus of the story is really a love story and about addiction, and less so about his time in prison and his time in the army, while a substantial amount of the book is spent on his time in the military.
00:51:21.750 --> 00:51:26.469
I'd say 75-80% of the book is him in the army.
00:51:26.469 --> 00:51:30.710
But that is not the focus of this film, and rightfully so.
00:51:30.710 --> 00:51:38.469
I think that the focus being shifted to a love story for this really works well for the story.
00:51:38.469 --> 00:52:04.789
And from all of the clips that you showed me, it seems like the actors were all bringing their A game, but I don't know if the Russo brothers had spent just too much time making big Hollywood system type films, that they kind of overindulged in this and spent too much money, made the movie a little too long, or a little too creative with some of the things they were doing, like the bank names and the camera angles and stuff.
00:52:04.789 --> 00:52:11.590
But I think that this is a solid film, and I think it is something that people should take a second glance at.
00:52:11.590 --> 00:52:22.789
I won't reveal if it's an accurate version of the true story yet, but I do think that it is a good Hollywood version of the true story.
00:52:23.110 --> 00:52:24.469
I like this movie.
00:52:24.469 --> 00:52:39.029
It deals with some really, really tough subject matter, but what I do respect is one of the questions Tom Holland asked the Russo brothers is if in any way this movie was gonna glorify drug use.
00:52:39.029 --> 00:52:42.069
And the Russo brothers were like, absolutely not.
00:52:42.069 --> 00:52:43.349
And it did not.
00:52:43.349 --> 00:52:49.509
It makes opioids and heroin look as awful as they are.
00:52:49.509 --> 00:52:56.710
The performances by all of the actors in this movie are really, really impressive, very convincing.
00:52:56.710 --> 00:53:09.670
The Russo brothers, I think, did try to do a lot of artsy stuff, which is probably a consequence of them being in the Marvel Disney box for so long.
00:53:09.670 --> 00:53:23.509
There's the voiceover, there's the intro scenes against the red backdrop, there's the eerie piano music that's played throughout, there's the silly names, there's cutscenes in between cutscenes.
00:53:23.509 --> 00:53:28.869
It's a lot, so it really might not be for everyone, and it also is long.
00:53:28.869 --> 00:53:33.110
But I thought it was a good film and I enjoyed watching it again.
00:53:33.429 --> 00:53:46.469
There is another movie that kept popping up in my mind while we were preparing for this podcast, partly because I kept accidentally calling Cherry Candy, and that is the film Candy.
00:53:46.469 --> 00:53:55.029
It is a Australian film starring Heath Ledger, and it is about a young couple who are addicted to heroin.
00:53:55.029 --> 00:54:01.110
And I think it's one of Heath Ledger's best performances he has ever done, and that is saying a lot.
00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:05.509
Yeah, you showed me that movie, and it is devastating.
00:54:05.829 --> 00:54:08.469
It is truly a tearjerker.
00:54:08.469 --> 00:54:11.829
It gets me choked up every time, especially the ending.
00:54:11.829 --> 00:54:25.989
And I feel like the grounded approach that was taken in that film would serve a story like this much better than the fancy camera work and little nuances they were putting into this.
00:54:25.989 --> 00:54:29.269
This seems like it should have been a really grounded story.
00:54:29.269 --> 00:54:32.869
Like you feel like you're a fly in the wall in the room.
00:54:32.869 --> 00:54:41.509
All of the camera work and the additional stuff put in there, it's creative, but I think it takes away from this story.
00:54:41.509 --> 00:54:49.509
This should be a grounded, realistic, gritty story, and it seems like it does have a bit of that Hollywood shine.
00:54:49.509 --> 00:54:53.590
Sort of like when Peter Jackson tried to make the lovely bones.
00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:54.710
It just didn't work.
00:54:54.710 --> 00:54:58.469
He put too much of his Hollywood thing into it at that point.
00:54:58.469 --> 00:55:01.829
Too much money, too long, and it needed to be a grounded story.
00:55:01.829 --> 00:55:04.949
And I feel the same way about Cherry.
00:55:05.349 --> 00:55:07.989
And also all the comedic elements.
00:55:07.989 --> 00:55:16.150
I mean, you don't name a drug dealer Pills and Coke and name banks Bank Fucks America if you're not trying to at least get a chuckle.
00:55:16.549 --> 00:55:19.750
That sort of thing just seems immature to me.
00:55:19.750 --> 00:55:24.309
I don't know anyone who's gonna see that and be like, oh, Bank Fucks America.
00:55:24.309 --> 00:55:25.429
Clever.
00:55:25.829 --> 00:55:36.150
So the reason why they did it is because they were trying to illustrate that this story could be anyone and could take place anywhere.
00:55:36.150 --> 00:55:40.630
So it didn't need a specific drug dealer name or a specific bank name.
00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:47.429
It is just a general problem across America, but it didn't really translate like that on screen, in my opinion.
00:55:47.750 --> 00:55:50.789
And stuff like that is more of a distraction in the scene.
00:55:50.789 --> 00:55:59.190
The scene should be focusing on him going in and robbing the bank, but it has the audience looking at the wall and saying, Does that say bank fucks America?
00:55:59.190 --> 00:56:05.190
It's like inserting a naked gun joke in the middle of a serious drama.
00:56:05.509 --> 00:56:10.949
Well, let's get into the single paragraph I have about post-production.
00:56:11.349 --> 00:56:13.829
Wow, that's unbelievably short.
00:56:14.150 --> 00:56:23.750
In September 2020, Apple TV acquired the distribution rights to Cherry for 40 million, the reported budget of the production.
00:56:23.750 --> 00:56:32.069
So this movie was released right when streaming was really replacing theaters because of the pandemic.
00:56:32.389 --> 00:56:34.230
I know that's how we saw the film.
00:56:34.469 --> 00:56:45.829
It did release in Select Theaters on February 26, 2021, with a very limited theatrical release before it started streaming on March 12th.
00:56:45.829 --> 00:56:50.949
The worldwide box office gross was just 140,000.
00:56:50.949 --> 00:56:51.750
Oof.
00:56:51.750 --> 00:56:56.150
I don't think that that says anything about the movie.
00:56:56.150 --> 00:57:02.389
It was released at a time when really the big discord was our theater's dead.
00:57:02.389 --> 00:57:07.989
And this is not a movie that people are gonna be flocking to the theaters to see.
00:57:07.989 --> 00:57:10.949
And it was only in a few theaters for like two weeks.
00:57:10.949 --> 00:57:15.989
I couldn't find any information other than Box Office.
00:57:15.989 --> 00:57:19.750
So, I mean, it's really Apple TV's fault.
00:57:19.750 --> 00:57:24.389
They bought this movie when they were trying to up the amount of content they had.
00:57:24.389 --> 00:57:30.309
So it kind of was doomed to be a budget failure.
00:57:30.630 --> 00:57:38.789
I definitely think if this film was released in pre-COVID times, it would have done a lot better than it did.
00:57:38.789 --> 00:57:40.389
And you're absolutely right.
00:57:40.389 --> 00:57:47.829
When this film came out, any movie that came out that entire year was basically doomed if it was being released in a cinema.
00:57:48.150 --> 00:58:02.630
Despite the Russo Brothers and Tom Holland's pride in the film, it currently has a 37% critical approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, but a 70% won by audiences.
00:58:02.630 --> 00:58:04.710
I'm gonna go with the audiences here on that.
00:58:04.710 --> 00:58:08.869
37% is very, very, very unfair.
00:58:08.869 --> 00:58:23.909
The critical consensus reads: It's certainly stylish and it offers Tom Holland a welcome opportunity to branch out, but Cherry's woes stem from a story that's too formulaic to bowl anyone over.
00:58:23.909 --> 00:58:29.590
And believe it or not, that's all that's available about post-production.
00:58:29.590 --> 00:58:31.909
So, Remy, it is now time.
00:58:31.909 --> 00:58:35.989
I want to know the true story behind Cherry.
00:58:35.989 --> 00:58:37.750
Who is Nigo Walker?
00:58:37.750 --> 00:58:42.069
What happened to him, and why in the hell did he write this book?
00:58:42.389 --> 00:58:47.829
All right, from prison manuscript to $40 million Russo Brothers production.
00:58:47.829 --> 00:58:50.309
Let's get into the truth of it.
00:58:50.309 --> 00:59:11.509
Nicholas Nico Walker was born April nineteenth, nineteen eighty-five in Cleveland, Ohio.
00:59:11.829 --> 00:59:13.509
Wow, he is young.
00:59:13.829 --> 00:59:15.429
Yeah, younger than me.
00:59:15.429 --> 00:59:28.069
His mother, Liliana Dalfara Walker, was born in nineteen fifty-seven in occupied Saarland, Germany, or possibly Alsace, depending on the source.
00:59:28.069 --> 00:59:34.869
Her biological father, Vittorio Dalfara, died of throat cancer in Paris when she was still a baby.
00:59:34.869 --> 00:59:43.590
Her mother Erna later remarried an American army sergeant named Jack, so Liliana spent much of her childhood as an army brat.
00:59:43.590 --> 00:59:53.110
After college and spending some time living in New York City, Liliana eventually settled in Atlanta, where she met Nico's father, Tim Walker.
00:59:53.110 --> 01:00:00.549
The two got married and later moved to Cleveland, where they raised three sons together, with Nico being the youngest.
01:00:00.549 --> 01:00:09.750
Tim Walker eventually became very successful supplying parts to the nuclear industry, and the family became financially very well off.
01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:17.670
Nico grew up in wealthy suburbs, attended private schools, and by most accounts had a very stable upbringing.
01:00:17.670 --> 01:00:21.670
Walker was also heavily into music from a young age.
01:00:21.670 --> 01:00:30.230
His parents bought him guitars and eventually even a Steinway baby grand piano, after realizing how talented he was musically.
01:00:30.549 --> 01:00:34.069
Oh my god, they bought him a baby grand piano.
01:00:34.069 --> 01:00:35.989
One, that is a lot of money.
01:00:35.989 --> 01:00:39.110
Two, that takes up a lot of space.
01:00:39.429 --> 01:00:46.789
And I also just want to point out that the song that played at the beginning of my section is from Nico's band.
01:00:46.789 --> 01:01:01.909
Nico was especially close with his maternal grandfather, who had been an infantry veteran during World War II, and that relationship reportedly became a major influence on Walker's fascination with war and military service later in life.
01:01:01.909 --> 01:01:10.069
Walker attended John Carroll University, but during his first year there he became increasingly obsessed with the Iraq war.
01:01:10.069 --> 01:01:20.389
According to Walker, he grew frustrated with civilian life while constantly seeing stories about wounded and disfigured young soldiers returning home from Iraq.
01:01:20.710 --> 01:01:22.710
Man, it's like Edward Snowden.
01:01:23.190 --> 01:01:29.110
There are a lot of similarities at the beginning here, but the similarities end pretty quickly.
01:01:29.110 --> 01:01:34.230
Walker later enlisted because he quote wanted to help people.
01:01:34.230 --> 01:01:41.029
At 19 years old, despite his parents being strongly against it, he dropped out of college and joined the U.S.
01:01:41.029 --> 01:01:41.829
Army.
01:01:41.829 --> 01:01:47.029
Before deployment, Walker quietly eloped with his girlfriend Kara.
01:01:47.509 --> 01:01:51.989
And it is reported everywhere that Emily is based on Kara Walker.
01:01:52.309 --> 01:01:58.630
In February 2005, Nico shipped out to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood.
01:01:58.630 --> 01:02:07.829
On November 28th, 2005, Walker left for Kuwait and roughly two weeks later arrived in Iraq at just 19 years old.
01:02:08.150 --> 01:02:21.750
It's crazy to think about that when the US was at the height of the war with the Middle East, that most of the people on the front lines there were between the ages of like 19 and 23.
01:02:22.389 --> 01:02:26.469
It's where the Army gets most of their new recruits.
01:02:26.469 --> 01:02:51.829
Walker served as a combat medic during Operation Iraqi Freedom with the 167th Armored Regime, 4th Infantry Division, a unit that referred to themselves as the Death Dealers.
01:02:51.829 --> 01:03:02.789
Most of his deployment took place south of Baghdad in the area known as the Triangle of Death, which was considered one of the deadliest regions in Iraq at the time.
01:03:03.110 --> 01:03:04.630
Similar to the movie.
01:03:04.869 --> 01:03:17.909
Over the course of roughly a year, Walker participated in around 250 combat missions, which is an unusually high number even for infantry soldiers, let alone a medic.
01:03:17.909 --> 01:03:30.309
According to multiple soldiers from his unit, infantry platoons specifically requested Walker on dangerous missions because they trusted him and believed he was exceptionally good at his job.
01:03:30.309 --> 01:03:40.949
Early in deployment, another medic was wounded and sent home, leaving Walker as the sole medic responsible for roughly 100 soldiers across two platoons.
01:03:41.269 --> 01:03:45.989
Wow, that is a lot of pressure for a 19-year-old child.
01:03:46.309 --> 01:04:00.309
And I also want to point out that in the book Cherry, which is, I know, loosely based on his experiences, basically all he knew how to do was give people morphine to temporarily stop the pain and maybe bandage a wound.
01:04:00.309 --> 01:04:04.710
Beyond that, he said he did not know how to do anything else.
01:04:05.110 --> 01:04:14.630
And I know you have said this to me off mic a couple times about how the book is, what did you say, like 80% about his time in the military?
01:04:14.869 --> 01:04:18.469
It spends a long time in the military.
01:04:18.789 --> 01:04:20.230
I understand why.
01:04:20.230 --> 01:04:30.150
This clearly played a huge role on his life and the person he became and is something that changed him.
01:04:30.549 --> 01:04:46.069
Walker later described constantly leaving the wire, sometimes up to three times a day, and occasionally remaining outside the base for nearly a week at a time, conducting patrols, raids, reconnaissance missions, and responding to bombings.
01:04:46.069 --> 01:04:49.349
Leaving the wire means leaving base, basically.
01:04:49.349 --> 01:04:53.590
A massive part of his deployment involved IEDs.
01:04:53.590 --> 01:05:03.349
Walker became so familiar with explosions that he later claimed he could distinguish between near misses and direct hits entirely by sound.
01:05:03.349 --> 01:05:06.710
A missed blast sounded sharp and cracking.
01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:15.750
A direct hit made what he described as a heavy womp sound.
01:05:21.190 --> 01:05:32.469
Okay, yeah, the first one kind of sounds like heavy gravel hitting a car window, with the second one having a distinct sound of metal on metal.
01:05:32.869 --> 01:05:36.949
Much of Walker's job involved recovering bodies after bombings.
01:05:36.949 --> 01:05:48.309
In one especially traumatic incident in April 2006, Walker responded to a destroyed vehicle and helped recover severely burned remains from inside.
01:05:48.309 --> 01:05:57.110
He later described melted intestines, faces burned completely away, and strips of human fat stuck to the inside of the vehicle.
01:05:57.110 --> 01:06:03.269
Walker later referred to the entire experience as moral anti-gravity.
01:06:03.750 --> 01:06:23.829
This is clearly the scene in the Movie where Jimenez and several of Cherry's other comrades get bombed by the IUD and he is carrying the bodies out and he has to stop because his gloves are being burned because the bodies are so hot.
01:06:24.309 --> 01:06:33.909
Another incident that reportedly haunted Walker involved an Iraqi man, his unit shot before dawn after the man ran from them in a field.
01:06:33.909 --> 01:06:39.269
Walker attempted to save him after he was hit, but the man eventually died.
01:06:39.590 --> 01:06:40.949
Jesus Christ.
01:06:40.949 --> 01:06:44.869
Just like one traumatic experience after another.
01:06:45.429 --> 01:06:52.630
Two things I have always said that I never want to experience in life is war and prison.
01:06:52.869 --> 01:06:55.670
And Nico Walker experiences both.
01:06:55.909 --> 01:07:04.389
While Walker's unit was attempting to recover the body, family members appeared, screaming while the soldiers came under AK-47 fire.
01:07:04.389 --> 01:07:13.029
Walker dragged the body through a sewage canal while bullets were coming in, and during the chaos an elderly Iraqi woman was killed.
01:07:13.029 --> 01:07:21.590
Walker later said that the incident stayed with him more than almost anything else from Iraq because the man had been unarmed.
01:07:21.590 --> 01:07:32.869
By mid-2006, Walker reportedly believed he probably would not survive deployment.
01:07:32.869 --> 01:07:43.429
During leave in June 2006, he told his father how bad conditions had become, and even discussed where he wanted to be buried if he died in Iraq.
01:07:43.429 --> 01:07:48.469
As deployment continued, Walker became increasingly numb to the danger.
01:07:48.469 --> 01:07:55.029
Mortar attacks became so routine that he often slept through them simply by pulling blankets over his head.
01:07:55.029 --> 01:08:00.869
For his service in Iraq, Walker ultimately received seven medals and accommodations.
01:08:00.869 --> 01:08:06.949
And I also just want to point out because I thought I had included it in my notes, but apparently didn't.
01:08:06.949 --> 01:08:12.789
Cherry is actually a name given to new recruits in the army.
01:08:12.789 --> 01:08:19.350
They're people who have just arrived after basic training and they're referred to as cherries.
01:08:19.350 --> 01:08:23.029
In the book, Nico Walker's character has no name.
01:08:23.029 --> 01:08:24.949
He is never referred to by name.
01:08:24.949 --> 01:08:29.670
But in the movie, for some reason, they made his name Cherry.
01:08:29.670 --> 01:08:31.269
Interesting choice.
01:08:31.590 --> 01:08:40.630
It is interesting because in the movie, his time in the army is such a small part of the overall film.
01:08:40.630 --> 01:08:48.949
It's maybe over by the first 40 or 50 minutes, and a lot of that at the beginning is even before he enters the army.
01:08:48.949 --> 01:08:53.029
And yet it's the name of the film and the name of his character.
01:08:53.029 --> 01:09:08.789
It is illustrated that his drug addiction is caused by untreated PTSD from the army, but all of the overall army scenes are not as heavy as a focus as it is in the book.
01:09:09.189 --> 01:09:13.750
They're very truncated in the film, the entire army experience.
01:09:13.750 --> 01:09:18.630
And the book spends so much time with him in the army.
01:09:18.630 --> 01:09:24.309
And I must say, I was not really into the sections of the book where he was in the army.
01:09:24.630 --> 01:09:33.829
Do you think you would have had a different experience reading the book if you were reading this for pleasure, like the Russo brothers, versus for a podcast research?
01:09:34.390 --> 01:09:37.189
I definitely think that I would.
01:09:37.189 --> 01:09:45.989
I was expecting the book to play out similarly to the film where the army was maybe just a couple of chapters.
01:09:45.989 --> 01:09:54.149
However, in retrospect, these are the experiences that shaped who he was when he came back.
01:09:54.149 --> 01:10:00.949
And I do think it's a bit of a disservice to gloss over the army section in the film like that.
01:10:00.949 --> 01:10:07.109
Like him being in the army is why he became the person he was and did the things he did.
01:10:07.109 --> 01:10:15.510
These experiences that he went through in the army were the most impactful experiences that he went through.
01:10:15.510 --> 01:10:24.470
Beyond the robberies, beyond the drug addictions, this time in his life was by far the most traumatic for him.
01:10:24.869 --> 01:10:26.229
Understandably so.
01:10:26.229 --> 01:10:28.630
They're in literal hell.
01:10:28.949 --> 01:10:42.229
Walker returned home from Iraq in late 2006, but still had several months remaining on his military obligation and remained in Texas before finally returning to Ohio in March 2007.
01:10:42.229 --> 01:10:44.229
I didn't realize this was a thing.
01:10:44.229 --> 01:10:49.510
It's sort of like a halfway house in between getting out of military life.
01:10:50.069 --> 01:10:55.750
They should be receiving a lot of care during this time.
01:10:55.750 --> 01:11:05.510
They should be receiving case management services, being hooked up with their vet benefits, being given job training, crafting a resume.
01:11:05.510 --> 01:11:09.029
They should also be expected to undergo therapy.
01:11:09.029 --> 01:11:13.510
They need a lot more services than they are getting.
01:11:13.510 --> 01:11:19.829
I will say the VA system is very robust, but it's like any healthcare system.
01:11:19.829 --> 01:11:21.750
You have to know how to navigate it.
01:11:21.750 --> 01:11:24.550
You have to be motivated to navigate it.
01:11:24.949 --> 01:11:31.510
Returning to our story, not long after coming back home, Cora divorced Nico.
01:11:31.750 --> 01:11:32.550
Wait, what?
01:11:32.869 --> 01:11:35.269
Yep, like right away as soon as he got back.
01:11:35.590 --> 01:11:39.189
So she's not with him through the throes of his addiction and robberies?
01:11:39.510 --> 01:11:40.470
She comes back.
01:11:40.470 --> 01:11:42.949
But they are divorced at this point.
01:11:42.949 --> 01:12:00.789
Walker attempted to reintegrate into civilian life by going back to school, played music with his band Safari, whom you heard at the beginning of my segment, and growing his hair out, but according to the people around him, Iraq had already profoundly changed him.
01:12:00.789 --> 01:12:05.189
His mother, Liliana, noticed the change in him immediately.
01:12:05.189 --> 01:12:23.510
The military had given the family a pamphlet titled Homecoming After Deployment Tips for Reunion, which she later described as essentially useless, leading her to begin researching PTSD and reading books on the subject herself.
01:12:23.510 --> 01:12:29.350
Walker was also suffering from extreme insomnia and recurring nightmares.
01:12:29.350 --> 01:12:36.229
One recurring nightmare involved insurgents executing one of his friends before eventually killing him as well.
01:12:36.229 --> 01:12:44.309
And Walker later claimed that there was a period where he stayed awake for twenty one consecutive days.
01:12:44.869 --> 01:12:54.069
Um that's physically impossible, so I'm going to conclude that Walker was at least getting some sort of cat naps here and then.
01:12:54.390 --> 01:12:54.869
Agreed.
01:12:54.869 --> 01:13:07.109
I think the record is something like seven days, so he was probably passing out every now and again, but not getting enough sleep to sustain him regularly.
01:13:07.109 --> 01:13:14.149
And by summer two thousand seven, Walker had begun taking oxycottin in order to sleep.
01:13:14.149 --> 01:13:27.109
Around this same period, he enrolled at Cleveland State University and briefly reconciled with Kara in 2008, but according to the people around him, his condition continued to deteriorate.
01:13:27.109 --> 01:13:34.229
During nightmares, Walker would scream, thrash violently, and sometimes even struck Kara in his sleep.
01:13:34.229 --> 01:13:47.029
Walker also became consumed with guilt over a young soldier in Iraq whose bloody nose he had dismissed shortly before the soldier was killed in an explosion later that same day.
01:13:47.029 --> 01:13:57.670
Walker later stated that after returning from Iraq, he constantly entered rooms automatically thinking about how he would kill everyone inside if necessary.
01:13:57.670 --> 01:14:06.149
Well, they have a pamphlet for that.
01:14:06.149 --> 01:14:10.229
Eventually, Walker sought treatment through the VA system.
01:14:10.229 --> 01:14:20.869
Doctors prescribed antidepressants, but according to later psychiatric evaluations, he never really received consistent PTSD treatment.
01:14:21.269 --> 01:14:30.949
And what I will say, any treatment for anxiety or depression is very different from PTSD treatment.
01:14:30.949 --> 01:14:51.909
Both can involve a combination of medication and talk therapy, but there are several very specific evidence-based treatments for people with PTSD that involve a skilled clinician really walking the person through in a safe environment their traumatic experiences.
01:14:51.909 --> 01:15:00.869
And it is a combination of this talk therapy and medication as appropriate that helps someone with PTSD.
01:15:00.869 --> 01:15:09.670
Prescribing someone oxycontin who is clearly having PTSD symptoms is going to do them no good.
01:15:09.989 --> 01:15:11.829
Well, funny you should mention that.
01:15:11.829 --> 01:15:21.670
One psychiatrist diagnosed him with anxiety disorder, while another diagnosed him with bipolar disorder instead of PTSD.
01:15:21.670 --> 01:15:30.309
Walker later claimed the psychiatrist barely listened to him and mostly just checked boxes during his appointments.
01:15:30.309 --> 01:15:38.869
As Walker's mental state continued deteriorating, his behavior became increasingly reckless and self-destructive.
01:15:38.869 --> 01:15:52.149
He reportedly drove over 120 miles per hour, intentionally ran red lights, drove on the wrong side of the road, and regularly extinguished cigarettes on his own arms.
01:15:52.149 --> 01:15:57.989
So a lot of classic risk-taking behavior going on with Nico.
01:15:58.470 --> 01:15:59.989
Yeah, he doesn't care at this point.
01:15:59.989 --> 01:16:01.909
He doesn't care what happens to him.
01:16:02.229 --> 01:16:07.430
In fall of 2007, Walker injected heroin for the first time.
01:16:07.430 --> 01:16:22.149
In September 2008, Liliana took Walker on a trip to Washington, D.C., where during dinner at a bar, Walker reportedly became enraged after overhearing a Marine loudly bragging about Iraq.
01:16:22.550 --> 01:16:27.109
I wonder if this is supposed to be the scene where he's freaking out in the theater.
01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:29.829
I 100% think that it is.
01:16:29.829 --> 01:16:46.470
It's clear that in the film they swapped out Nico's mother for Emily, but they kept Nico's mother's influence in him with the whole being upset about the man's dress code at the theater.
01:16:46.470 --> 01:16:57.590
So it seems like they were combining a couple of different aspects from his life into one while also making the love story more cohesive and front and center.
01:16:57.989 --> 01:17:05.829
They wanted something else to focus on other than a single character who's going through turmoil through the whole movie.
01:17:06.229 --> 01:17:20.869
I do think it's interesting that they chose not to put Nico's mother or father in the film, but it especially seems that his mother had a really, really powerful influence on him and how he saw the world.
01:17:21.109 --> 01:17:24.789
I'm also surprised they don't even mention his parents at all.
01:17:24.789 --> 01:17:32.710
The only time they are mentioned is when he is in Iraq and Emily calls him and said, Your parents are buying us a house.
01:17:32.710 --> 01:17:35.029
Otherwise, they're not mentioned ever.
01:17:35.029 --> 01:17:40.069
We have a scene with Emily's parents when she had overdose at the hospital.
01:17:40.390 --> 01:17:50.630
Nico's mother was definitely the closest relationship that he had in his life at the time, and it is strange that it is omitted.
01:17:50.630 --> 01:17:56.869
Around this same period, Walker's behavior became increasingly erratic and violent.
01:17:56.869 --> 01:18:08.470
Safari bandmate Chris Hoke later described him as totally out of control, and by late 2008, Walker was deeply addicted to heroin.
01:18:08.470 --> 01:18:17.189
Safari eventually broke up because the other band members no longer believed he was capable of continuing with the group.
01:18:17.189 --> 01:18:23.590
In spring twenty ten, the Walker family traveled to rural Italy for a vacation.
01:18:23.590 --> 01:18:38.069
During heroin withdrawal, Walker hallucinated what he described as Filipino pirates surrounding him with knives, while Liliana physically held him in a bathtub as he went through withdrawal symptoms.
01:18:38.069 --> 01:18:44.390
In July 2010, another psychiatrist again noted signs of PTSD.
01:18:44.390 --> 01:18:55.109
The following month, Walker met with a substance abuse specialist at the University of Ohio, although accounts suggest the meeting itself went poorly.
01:18:55.109 --> 01:19:03.670
By late 2010, Walker had become obsessed with watching Iraq combat footage and memorial videos on YouTube.
01:19:03.670 --> 01:19:16.470
He later admitted that there was even a night where he was sitting around high on heroin, holding a pistol while watching Don't Forget the Lyrics and seriously contemplated suicide.
01:19:16.470 --> 01:19:24.630
On December 10th, 2010, Walker woke up already knowing he was going to rob a bank that day.
01:19:24.949 --> 01:19:25.909
Wait, why?
01:19:25.909 --> 01:19:29.189
He wasn't in debt to a drug dealer for stealing drugs.
01:19:29.189 --> 01:19:34.789
He just woke up and said, It's winter and it smells like a good day to rob a bank.
01:19:35.189 --> 01:19:45.590
I would assume that the rapidly escalating addiction that he was going through definitely played a part in this decision making.
01:19:45.590 --> 01:19:58.229
But like I said at the beginning of my section, he came from a family that was well off, and a loving mother who probably would have been more than glad to give him some money if he needed it.
01:19:58.229 --> 01:20:04.789
So this was much more his choice than a situational choice for him.
01:20:05.109 --> 01:20:11.909
And so he's not doing this for the money, he's just doing it to basically feel something?
01:20:12.309 --> 01:20:13.350
To feel alive.
01:20:13.350 --> 01:20:15.989
He's doing it for the sensation it gives him.
01:20:15.989 --> 01:20:18.869
Like an adrenaline rush or something like that.
01:20:19.350 --> 01:20:23.350
And that's because emotional numbing is a symptom of PTSD.
01:20:23.350 --> 01:20:29.269
So he normally feels nothing, and doing this reckless behavior causes him to feel something.
01:20:29.590 --> 01:20:36.229
According to Walker, bank robbery felt psychologically similar to combat in Iraq.
01:20:36.229 --> 01:20:52.949
He later compared handing a teller a robbery note to what he called the bang in combat, which is the moment after violence begins when all the tension suddenly disappears and gets replaced with a strange sense of calm.
01:20:52.949 --> 01:21:01.670
Walker's first robbery targeted a Huntington bank.
01:21:01.670 --> 01:21:08.149
He passed the teller a note claiming he was armed and walked out with $1,998.
01:21:08.149 --> 01:21:13.590
Walker later described the feeling afterwards as giddy.
01:21:13.590 --> 01:21:27.350
Between December 2010 and April 2011, Walker robbed 10 banks around Cleveland, with an 11th attempted robbery ending unsuccessfully.
01:21:27.350 --> 01:21:32.149
Some of the robberies appeared to be almost entirely impulsive.
01:21:32.149 --> 01:21:43.590
In one instance, Walker robbed a bank while waiting to pick up Cara from school, and another time, he decided to rob a nearby bank just while he had stopped for gas.
01:21:43.590 --> 01:21:59.029
As the robberies continued and Walker sank deeper into heroin addiction, he became increasingly involved with criminals and drug dealers around Cleveland, eventually bringing accomplices into several of the robberies.
01:21:59.029 --> 01:22:03.029
In total, five of the robberies involved other people.
01:22:03.029 --> 01:22:13.109
Most of the early robberies involved Walker simply passing demand notes and taking money, but the crimes gradually escalated over time.
01:22:13.109 --> 01:22:21.029
During one robbery, Walker reportedly threatened a teller by saying, Faster before I have to come back there and do it myself.
01:22:21.510 --> 01:22:25.750
This is depicted in the film during one of the robberies.
01:22:25.750 --> 01:22:30.390
A teller gives him money and he counts it and he's like, That's it.
01:22:30.390 --> 01:22:32.149
And she's like, That's all I got.
01:22:32.149 --> 01:22:34.309
And he's like, Bullshit, no, it's not.
01:22:34.309 --> 01:22:37.590
So he basically accosts her until she gives him more.
01:22:37.989 --> 01:22:42.229
Well, here is something that I don't think is depicted in the film.
01:22:42.229 --> 01:22:47.269
Only two of the robberies involved a firearm.
01:22:47.750 --> 01:22:51.909
Most of the robberies in the film didn't involve a firearm.
01:22:51.909 --> 01:22:57.350
It was really only the ones that he did bring accomplices with that showed them.
01:22:57.350 --> 01:23:02.470
I don't know the exact amount, but it is shown that most of them he does not have a gun.
01:23:02.470 --> 01:23:10.789
It's kind of as it's later down the line and he's getting more desperate because the severity of his withdrawals are increasing.
01:23:11.189 --> 01:23:20.710
Walker repeatedly emphasized that no shots were ever fired during any of the robberies, and that nobody was physically harmed.
01:23:20.710 --> 01:23:28.949
And I just want to point out that in the book, he uses guns very regularly in his robberies, but again, he never fires them.
01:23:28.949 --> 01:23:33.029
They're just used to threaten people and for intimidation.
01:23:33.029 --> 01:23:43.829
According to investigators and interviews conducted after his arrest, Walker gave away large amounts of the stolen money to drug dealers, addicts, and friends.
01:23:43.829 --> 01:23:47.590
Because as we have discussed, he didn't really need this money.
01:23:47.590 --> 01:23:54.630
He also admitted that at times he literally burned stolen cash in his kitchen sink.
01:23:54.949 --> 01:24:01.189
Honestly, I think in the back of his mind, he is begging to be caught.
01:24:25.510 --> 01:24:34.789
Walker approached teller Rosa Foster, who was pregnant at the time, briefly pointing the gun at her through the glass and demanding money.
01:24:34.789 --> 01:24:39.909
Foster handed over $7,426 in cash.
01:24:39.909 --> 01:24:45.189
Walker then fled the scene in a black Ford F-150.
01:24:45.829 --> 01:24:51.430
Eric in Riverside said, I got a bee for my five-year-old who won't eat her chicken nuggets.
01:24:51.430 --> 01:24:54.949
And I'm like, who under the age of eight has anything against a chicken nugget?
01:24:55.269 --> 01:25:04.229
During the getaway, Walker listened to the Jim Rome show while attempting to change clothes inside the truck to avoid being identified.
01:25:04.470 --> 01:25:12.309
I would expect some very intense Screamo music to be playing, maybe even something from this guy's band.
01:25:12.630 --> 01:25:14.789
Nico is clearly a sports fan.
01:25:14.789 --> 01:25:21.350
Maybe he was trying to get the latest scores on a few games or something on his way home from the robbery.
01:25:21.590 --> 01:25:23.989
That guy was talking about chicken nuggets.
01:25:24.309 --> 01:25:35.829
Yeah, maybe that wasn't the best clip for me to pick as a representation of the Jim Rome show, but I just found that clip personally amusing.
01:25:35.829 --> 01:25:50.149
Walker believed multiple police departments were already watching for him before he even left the bank that morning, which would explain why several police cruisers were already trailing him shortly after the robbery.
01:25:50.149 --> 01:26:23.269
The police pursued Walker through heavy traffic near Legacy Village as he swerved through intersections, collided with multiple vehicles, drove across parking lots, and eventually launched the truck off an embankment near a Burger King while attempting to escape and breaking his back in the process.
01:26:23.269 --> 01:26:29.430
The police ultimately surrounded Walker at gunpoint and arrested him at the scene.
01:26:29.430 --> 01:26:39.590
Federal prosecutor Art Hernandez later described Walker as one of the most prolific solo bank robbers in Ohio history.
01:26:39.590 --> 01:26:53.109
After his arrest, Walker spent time in the regional jail in Youngstown awaiting trial.
01:26:53.109 --> 01:27:00.710
According to Walker, his parents were among the only people who consistently came to visit him during this time.
01:27:00.710 --> 01:27:17.590
As the case moved forward, psychiatrists Pablo Stewart and John Fabian evaluated Walker and both concluded that he was suffering from severe PTSD connected to his combat experience in Iraq.
01:27:17.590 --> 01:27:23.750
Fabian administered the CAPS PTSD assessment.
01:27:23.989 --> 01:27:24.869
The caps.
01:27:25.109 --> 01:27:26.710
Do you know what that stands for?
01:27:27.189 --> 01:27:39.989
Not off the top of my head, but it's a standardized questionnaire that includes all of the criteria for PTSD as well as a generalized background interview.
01:27:39.989 --> 01:27:41.829
It's very comprehensive.
01:27:42.229 --> 01:27:49.029
Well, Walker scored a 101 on his CAPS PTSD assessment.
01:27:49.029 --> 01:27:57.430
And for comparison, a score of 65 is considered the clinical threshold for PTSD.
01:27:57.829 --> 01:28:05.510
Typically, hearing about a case like this where someone was robbing banks and tried to claim PTSD, my alarm.
01:28:05.510 --> 01:28:10.229
Alarm radars would be going off as this is bullshit.
01:28:10.229 --> 01:28:17.430
But after hearing this guy's case, I do truly think PTSD did have some sort of involvement.
01:28:17.430 --> 01:28:20.869
He wasn't robbing banks because he wanted money.
01:28:20.869 --> 01:28:31.510
He was robbing banks because he could see no other way to deal with his PTSD symptoms, and this is the only thing that caused him to feel something.
01:28:31.829 --> 01:28:43.430
Well, his psychiatrist, Pablo Stewart, described Walker's condition as one of the worst PTSD cases he had ever personally encountered.
01:28:43.430 --> 01:28:59.590
Despite these expert opinions, if Walker lost at trial, the firearm charges alone would trigger a mandatory 32-year sentence, leading Walker to ultimately accept a plea agreement instead.
01:28:59.909 --> 01:29:01.029
I think that's wise.
01:29:01.029 --> 01:29:05.989
I don't think any jury would have been sympathetic to a PTSD defense.
01:29:05.989 --> 01:29:10.069
People just don't understand, and this is very nuanced.
01:29:10.069 --> 01:29:13.989
And in the end, he made the decision to rob these banks.
01:29:13.989 --> 01:29:17.430
He knew what he was doing, he knew what he was doing was wrong.
01:29:17.750 --> 01:29:32.229
On June 1st, 2012, Walker appeared in federal court for sentencing, where he publicly apologized to the bank tellers, employees, drivers, passengers, and even family members who were affected by his crimes.
01:29:32.229 --> 01:29:37.350
The judge ultimately sentenced Walker to 11 years in federal prison.
01:29:37.350 --> 01:29:48.470
Following the sentencing, prosecutor Art Hernandez, who was also an Iraq war veteran, visited Walker in prison and spoke to him soldier to soldier.
01:29:48.470 --> 01:29:58.630
According to Walker, Hernandez told him he believed Walker was fundamentally a good person, and encouraged him to not give up on his life.
01:29:58.630 --> 01:30:05.029
Walker served his sentence at the Federal Correctional Institution in Ashland, Kentucky.
01:30:05.029 --> 01:30:17.189
During his years in prison, Walker worked as a GED tutor for other inmates, studied Latin, listened heavily to classical music, and read books like War and Peace.
01:30:17.189 --> 01:30:24.869
Walker also began writing seriously while incarcerated, and wrote his debut novel on a typewriter.
01:30:24.869 --> 01:30:37.590
Throughout this time, his mother, Liliana, regularly mailed him books, dictionaries, Latin texts, works by James Joyce and William Blake, along with detective novels by Philip Kerr.
01:30:37.590 --> 01:30:46.229
In 2013, BuzzFeed published a major profile on Walker while he was still incarcerated in federal prison.
01:30:46.229 --> 01:30:55.909
And this article is actually one of the primary resources I used to research for this episode, and it's very informative.
01:30:55.909 --> 01:31:07.750
The BuzzFeed article ended up dramatically changing the course of his life after it caught the attention of Matthew Johnson, co-owner of Tyrant Books.
01:31:08.149 --> 01:31:13.269
Wait, how did BuzzFeed even learn about Nico Walker?
01:31:13.670 --> 01:31:20.869
I assume that initial interest came from his notoriety as a bank robber.
01:31:20.869 --> 01:31:33.189
Matthew Johnson from Tyrant Books began corresponding with Walker in prison and encouraged him to take writing seriously and began regularly mailing him books.
01:31:33.189 --> 01:31:45.269
Over the next several years, Walker began writing what would eventually become Cherry, repeatedly rewriting and revising the manuscript over the course of nearly four years.
01:31:47.829 --> 01:31:57.189
It was something that he was doing, you know, was locked up something as something that didn't play.
01:31:57.189 --> 01:32:04.309
You know, one of the great things about being in prison for some reason.
01:32:09.590 --> 01:32:23.029
Originally, Matthew Johnson did intend to publish the novel through tyrant books, but the manuscript eventually attracted major industry attention and instead was sold to Alfred A.
01:32:23.029 --> 01:32:23.909
Knopf.
01:32:23.909 --> 01:32:29.590
So Matthew Johnson was really the man who made Cherry into a thing.
01:32:29.590 --> 01:32:40.949
He was the person who encouraged Nico to write his story down, and he was the one who got it out there and got the press's attention as well.
01:32:40.949 --> 01:32:52.630
So this man, Matthew Johnson, read this Buzzfeed article, said this guy sounds interesting, and started a relationship with him that led to the book Cherry.
01:32:52.869 --> 01:32:54.229
This is so wild.
01:32:54.229 --> 01:32:56.869
Just, oh, you have an interesting story?
01:32:57.189 --> 01:33:02.309
It is impressive that his story caught this much attention.
01:33:02.309 --> 01:33:10.869
I would imagine there are a lot of inmates who have written their stories out and never got this kind of acknowledgement.
01:33:10.869 --> 01:33:16.949
So Nico's story is very unusual in that regard.
01:33:16.949 --> 01:33:27.829
And Cherry became a major success and reached number fourteen on the New York Times bestseller list while Walker was still incarcerated.
01:33:27.829 --> 01:33:36.390
Walker also stated that he used money earned from the novel to help repay restitution connected to the bank robberies.
01:33:36.390 --> 01:33:44.149
The novel was additionally shortlisted for the 2019 Hemingway Foundation Penn Award.
01:33:44.149 --> 01:33:55.350
Walker was released from federal prison in October 2019 after serving roughly eight and a half years, followed by six months in a halfway house.
01:33:55.350 --> 01:34:03.829
Part of the reason Walker received compassionate early release was because his mother, Liliana, was dying from leukemia.
01:34:03.829 --> 01:34:12.710
Following his release, Walker was sent to a halfway house in Topello, Mississippi, while attempting to rebuild his life outside of prison.
01:34:13.350 --> 01:34:20.390
So my manager, uh, you know, Matthew Johnson, he lived in Oxford, uh, Mississippi.
01:34:20.390 --> 01:34:25.670
Uh he's got, you know, he's got this record label Fat Possum down here.
01:34:25.670 --> 01:34:34.229
So, you know, the idea was, you know, when I was in the halfway house, uh, I you know, I could work at the record label because you have to have a job and whatnot.
01:34:34.229 --> 01:34:37.750
So it was, you know, while I was in the halfway house, I was working there.
01:34:45.029 --> 01:34:52.229
What complicated things further was the fact that Liliana's condition became significantly worse.
01:34:52.229 --> 01:35:04.309
In addition to leukemia, she reportedly contracted Legionnaires disease while hospitalized and suffered severe neurological decline along with extremely high fevers.
01:35:04.309 --> 01:35:14.550
According to accounts from the family, Tim Walker, Liliana's husband, stayed beside his wife's hospital bed for weeks and rarely left the room.
01:35:14.550 --> 01:35:20.390
Nico was with his mother when she died on February 12, 2020.
01:35:20.390 --> 01:35:27.829
Almost immediately afterwards, the COVID-19 pandemic began sweeping across the globe.
01:35:27.829 --> 01:35:39.189
Funeral plans were repeatedly disrupted and delayed by lockdown restrictions, and Liliana ultimately never received a normal funeral service.
01:35:39.189 --> 01:35:53.430
As COVID lockdowns spread across Mississippi in 2020, Walker was also released from the halfway house earlier than expected as authorities attempted to reduce crowding throughout the prison system.
01:35:53.909 --> 01:35:59.750
This is another example of the system failing Nico Walker here.
01:35:59.750 --> 01:36:04.470
He is being released from a 11-year prison sentence.
01:36:04.470 --> 01:36:08.949
His mom, his primary support system, dies suddenly.
01:36:08.949 --> 01:36:15.750
He is in a halfway house and he gets released early into the COVID-19 pandemic.
01:36:16.149 --> 01:36:20.949
Could you imagine being locked up for eight years, not the full 11?
01:36:20.949 --> 01:36:29.430
But coming out after that amount of time behind bars, and you just walk straight into the COVID-19 pandemic?
01:36:29.670 --> 01:36:31.510
What is he supposed to do?
01:36:31.829 --> 01:36:50.869
Well, I do have to say something good did come of this because during the COVID lockdowns in April of 2020, poet Rachel Rabbit White ended up stranded near Walker in Mississippi after New York shut down shortly after she had traveled there.
01:36:50.869 --> 01:37:02.390
According to Walker, the two quarantined together for forty-seven days during lockdown, and he eventually summarized the outcome by simply saying, We are married now.
01:37:02.390 --> 01:37:07.590
And here is a brief clip of Nico's wedding vows to Rachel.
01:37:12.710 --> 01:37:20.710
The best thing that I could say about it is that it wasn't wasted because I was waiting on you.
01:37:20.710 --> 01:37:24.789
Everything was so dull before you.
01:37:24.789 --> 01:37:31.670
I can't explain it.
01:37:31.670 --> 01:37:33.670
Okay, you can't tell me.
01:37:43.189 --> 01:37:46.949
Nico Walker is high as fuck during these vows.
01:37:47.430 --> 01:37:52.869
He is absolutely on heroin in this clip, unfortunately.
01:37:52.869 --> 01:38:03.989
This was after his mother's passing, and as I'll get into in just a moment, he did end up relapsing after his mother died.
01:38:03.989 --> 01:38:18.069
Not long afterwards, Walker became involved in what he described as a hospital and police incident connected to his continued struggles adjusting to life after prison.
01:38:18.069 --> 01:38:30.470
Rather than sending him back to federal prison, Walker's parole officer instead ordered him into a rehab in Clarksdale, Mississippi in June of 2020.
01:38:30.470 --> 01:38:45.750
After leaving rehab, Walker donated money to a battered woman's shelter in honor of his mother, describing it as the funeral he never properly gave her because of the COVID-19 restrictions.
01:38:45.750 --> 01:38:58.949
Walker eventually settled in Oxford, Mississippi, and as of January 2022, he has reportedly been working on a second novel focused on incarceration and prison life.
01:38:59.510 --> 01:39:00.789
Yeah, I'm writing a book.
01:39:00.789 --> 01:39:06.949
I've been up to doing a lot of stuff, you know.
01:39:06.949 --> 01:39:08.470
I've been doing a lot of things.
01:39:08.470 --> 01:39:16.069
I got married, I've been I've moved a couple times, you know, other things have happened that are just, you know, I don't know.
01:39:16.069 --> 01:39:20.069
Fucking I was in a coma, went to rehab, I don't know.
01:39:20.069 --> 01:39:34.789
You know, my mom died, and it's like but somehow I've like managed to write, you know, hundreds of pages of stuff, and it's just so I'm at that part where you're just trying to turn it into something that's like that holds together as one one thing.
01:39:35.430 --> 01:39:39.189
And that was the Russo Brothers Cherry.
01:39:39.189 --> 01:39:47.189
Do you have any initial reactions before we jump into our other portions of the podcast?
01:39:47.590 --> 01:39:54.390
The episode actually reminds me of an episode we did, I think last season about Pamela Smart.
01:39:54.390 --> 01:39:57.829
It was to Die For, the movie featuring Nicole Kidnan.
01:39:58.390 --> 01:40:07.590
Yes, because the book was based off of Pamela Smart, but it wasn't directly retelling the story of her.
01:40:07.909 --> 01:40:16.710
In that case, I actually opted to not read the novel that the movie was based on because Pamela Smart is such a huge case.
01:40:16.710 --> 01:40:20.390
There was plentiful information otherwise.
01:40:20.390 --> 01:40:25.670
I definitely do not think I needed to read the novel to die for.
01:40:25.670 --> 01:40:32.149
So what I am curious is, Remy, you've told us the true story about Nigo Walker.
01:40:32.149 --> 01:40:36.069
How true is the movie to the book that you read?
01:40:36.470 --> 01:40:43.269
The movie is definitely based on the book and not the true story.
01:40:43.269 --> 01:40:51.829
Though I must add that the true story is not that far off from what is depicted in the book.
01:40:51.829 --> 01:41:00.309
The main difference that sticks out to me is the stuff with his girlfriend or his wife that he married before deploying.
01:41:00.309 --> 01:41:03.590
In the book, she is a pretty major character.
01:41:03.590 --> 01:41:09.109
However, it is not the loving romance that is depicted in the film.
01:41:09.109 --> 01:41:12.229
In the book, they get into a ton of arguments.
01:41:12.229 --> 01:41:16.949
In the book, he thinks that she is cheating on him all the time.
01:41:16.949 --> 01:41:24.710
So she is a bigger character in the book, but it definitely does not have this true love angle to it.
01:41:24.710 --> 01:41:32.309
In reality, Kara, who this Emily character is based on, was not a huge factor in Nico's life.
01:41:32.309 --> 01:41:39.590
But I do think that having that core relationship in the story is greatly beneficial to this story.
01:41:39.590 --> 01:41:53.430
I think that the focus in on the relationship and that being a driving force in his life is a smart decision, but it is not accurate.
01:41:53.829 --> 01:42:01.350
I definitely can see that they combined aspects of his relationship with Kara and his mom.
01:42:01.750 --> 01:42:07.590
If anything, in real life, his mother was the biggest female influence on his life.
01:42:07.909 --> 01:42:14.229
The other question I have is the drastic difference of the motivation of the robberies.
01:42:14.229 --> 01:42:23.670
In the book, he starts the robberies because he is in significant debt to a very dangerous drug dealer.
01:42:23.670 --> 01:42:26.470
In real life, he starts robbing banks.
01:42:26.789 --> 01:42:28.309
Just to feel alive.
01:42:28.550 --> 01:42:31.029
That is a huge difference.
01:42:31.510 --> 01:42:36.229
And I fully understand why that change was made.
01:42:36.229 --> 01:42:49.510
It is more difficult for people to relate to someone who is just doing something to feel something than it is to relate to someone who has an actual motivation behind it.
01:42:49.510 --> 01:42:56.630
All of his struggles seem to really be internal and they were not related to these external things.
01:42:56.630 --> 01:43:05.989
He had money, he had a family, he could have had a wife, he could have had all of these things, but he just was so self-destructive.
01:43:05.989 --> 01:43:11.430
And I think that's very difficult to capture on screen and make it relatable.
01:43:11.670 --> 01:43:19.989
I mean, in real life, this guy was robbing banks and then going home and burning money in the sink because he didn't care about the money.
01:43:19.989 --> 01:43:35.109
He was just trying to feel something, which I do agree, it is a very hard sell to have a random person on the street understand what this person was feeling and how much psychological pain they were feeling.
01:43:35.350 --> 01:43:37.829
And I think he knew that as well.
01:43:37.829 --> 01:43:45.029
In the story that he wrote, it was motivated by drug addiction and needing money and owing money.
01:43:45.029 --> 01:44:01.350
It was slightly different in the film, but I think even Nico realized that this is not something that people can relate to, just needing to feel something, anything, and resorting to these extreme measures.
01:44:01.350 --> 01:44:11.029
So making it an addiction or making it for love is something that I think that's a wise storytelling move.
01:44:11.350 --> 01:44:16.550
So since you read the book, how closely is the movie to the actual novel?
01:44:16.550 --> 01:44:22.309
Are you saying guilty, not guilty, or a mistrial from the original source material?
01:44:22.710 --> 01:44:32.869
Okay, if I were to give a verdict to the adaptation from book to movie, I would give this a mistrial.
01:44:32.869 --> 01:44:42.229
I think that the film definitely is much more sanitized in a lot of ways than the book version.
01:44:42.229 --> 01:44:47.989
But again, I guess the book version is a more sanitized version of the real events.
01:44:48.309 --> 01:44:49.989
That begs the next question.
01:44:49.989 --> 01:44:55.829
Based on the movie to the true story, which is not the novel, what's your verdict?
01:44:56.229 --> 01:45:01.590
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy.
01:45:01.590 --> 01:45:06.869
If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict.
01:45:06.869 --> 01:45:15.350
If the adaptation is mostly factual, but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial.
01:45:15.350 --> 01:45:23.029
But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.
01:45:24.229 --> 01:45:35.829
I will interject saying we are still going to do our objection of the week, but because we are already in a heated debate about the objection, it just makes sense to do it right now.
01:45:36.149 --> 01:45:47.430
So being put on the spot here, giving my verdict for the true story versus the film version, they do have a lot of the framework.
01:45:47.430 --> 01:45:51.829
I mean, it is the story, but God, so much is changed.
01:45:51.829 --> 01:45:57.350
I I'm gonna give this one a verdict of barely a guilty.
01:45:57.350 --> 01:46:00.309
It's barely a guilty on the side of mistrial.
01:46:00.309 --> 01:46:15.029
I think that all of the stories are very close to what Nico Walker actually experienced, but through each interpretation, the story shifts a little bit to make the narration more palatable.
01:46:15.029 --> 01:46:24.069
And in the end, it's kind of like a game of telephone where you're whispering in someone's ear and they're telling you something, and they're telling you something.
01:46:24.069 --> 01:46:28.309
And then by the end, it's, you know, it sounds like the same word, but it's not the same word.
01:46:28.309 --> 01:46:31.670
That's kind of how I feel about this film.
01:46:31.670 --> 01:46:38.149
It's kind of the same story, but it's not really the same story at the same time.
01:46:38.789 --> 01:46:45.989
So I agree with your guilty verdict, except this is not a barely guilty verdict for me.
01:46:45.989 --> 01:46:50.390
This is a very clear, obvious guilty verdict.
01:46:50.390 --> 01:46:54.869
Sure, it is a army vet who robbed banks.
01:46:55.189 --> 01:46:57.510
All the framework of the story is there.
01:46:57.510 --> 01:47:03.109
I'm tempted to tip this back into the mistrial category, but all of the main stuff is there.
01:47:03.109 --> 01:47:07.430
Just the characters and the motivation are different.
01:47:07.750 --> 01:47:15.510
And by the framework, you're saying it is a military veteran who got addicted to heroin and rob banks.
01:47:15.510 --> 01:47:19.189
Other than that, what similarities are there?
01:47:19.189 --> 01:47:21.029
Emily doesn't exist.
01:47:21.029 --> 01:47:24.710
I mean, she does, but their relationship ends so early.
01:47:24.710 --> 01:47:32.309
His mom is not in the movie at all, other than a quick cutout scene where he asks her for money and she says no.
01:47:32.309 --> 01:47:44.550
He starts robbing banks because he is in debt from impulsively doing a safe load of drugs, and that's the whole reason he starts robbing banks.
01:47:44.550 --> 01:47:52.710
In the real life story, it is because he was so psychologically disturbed that he was just looking to feel something.
01:47:52.710 --> 01:48:04.789
To me, that is a substantial difference from the real life story, and I take notes as I'm going through and hearing the true story from the movie.
01:48:04.789 --> 01:48:07.189
I'll read you the similarities.
01:48:07.189 --> 01:48:10.309
Medic, Triangle of Death.
01:48:10.309 --> 01:48:12.149
That's basically all I got.
01:48:12.470 --> 01:48:13.750
He robbed banks.
01:48:13.750 --> 01:48:18.309
You have to have bank robber on there at least and addicted the heroine.
01:48:18.630 --> 01:48:23.430
I don't think that's enough to even push me into a mistrial.
01:48:23.430 --> 01:48:25.989
This is a guilty verdict for me.
01:48:25.989 --> 01:48:27.989
No question, guilty.
01:48:28.229 --> 01:48:34.390
And I am giving this film a guilty verdict as well, but I think you're being kind of harsh.
01:48:34.390 --> 01:48:40.470
In this situation, the story is there, but they changed all the motivations.
01:48:40.470 --> 01:48:41.670
They changed characters.
01:48:41.670 --> 01:48:44.630
I don't think it's as guilty as you're giving it.
01:48:44.630 --> 01:48:46.309
As a matter of fact, you know what?
01:48:46.309 --> 01:48:48.550
I'm switching mine to a mistrial.
01:48:48.550 --> 01:49:00.069
Not that it makes any lick of difference at this point, but you have convinced me after reconsidering the evidence and looking it over again, I'm changing my vote to a mistrial.
01:49:00.470 --> 01:49:08.630
Too much was changed from the original story to pass it off as a reliable account of the event.
01:49:09.189 --> 01:49:18.630
I do want to just point out to our audiences that it is about midnight when we are recording this, and usually we record this much earlier in the day.
01:49:18.630 --> 01:49:23.189
And this is probably the most heated debate we've ever had on a verdict.
01:49:23.590 --> 01:49:30.229
There has been a couple other episodes where our verdicts have drastically differed.
01:49:30.229 --> 01:49:37.109
And so, summarizing this conversation, you changed your barely guilty verdict to Mistraw.
01:49:37.350 --> 01:49:37.909
Exactly.
01:49:37.909 --> 01:49:40.789
It's just like 12 angry men.
01:49:40.789 --> 01:49:43.430
You convinced me to change my vote.
01:49:43.430 --> 01:49:46.550
And I just gotta admit, I've never seen 12 Angry Men.
01:49:46.789 --> 01:49:47.989
It's a really good movie.
01:49:47.989 --> 01:49:59.510
So, what I say is we table this conversation and duke it out in the future because we really do need to figure out what our criteria is for each of these categories.
01:49:59.510 --> 01:50:04.869
And with that, let's scroll back and go to our objection of the week.
01:50:05.109 --> 01:50:05.510
You're right!
01:50:06.390 --> 01:50:08.390
I object! And why is that, Mr.
01:50:08.390 --> 01:50:08.949
Eden?
01:50:08.949 --> 01:50:11.829
Because it's devastating to my case! Overrule.
01:50:11.829 --> 01:50:13.029
Good call!
01:50:13.269 --> 01:50:21.909
Alright, Remy, because I threw you off with the surprise verdict before the objection, I will take the lead on this portion.
01:50:21.909 --> 01:50:29.350
My objection is that in the movie, Cherry had no band, no musical talent, nothing.
01:50:29.350 --> 01:50:35.029
It seemed like in the book and the real life story, music was a very big portion of his life.
01:50:35.029 --> 01:50:36.390
He had a band.
01:50:36.390 --> 01:50:43.829
It would have been super easy to just have a even a single scene of Cherry sitting there strumming on a guitar.
01:50:44.390 --> 01:50:48.229
Alright, it's time for my rebuttal.
01:50:48.229 --> 01:50:52.710
There were a lot of little things that I could have picked.
01:50:52.710 --> 01:51:01.750
For one, he never mentions Ecstasy in the book or in any of the research, despite meeting Emily on Ecstasy in the film.
01:51:01.750 --> 01:51:04.149
He does a lot of drugs and mentions them all by name.
01:51:04.149 --> 01:51:06.069
Ecstasy was never one of them.
01:51:06.069 --> 01:51:14.550
Another one would be that nobody jumps out of a car and, you know, randomly dies in the book or in real life.
01:51:14.550 --> 01:51:23.989
And in the movie, it seems like he didn't do any drugs in the army, which in the book it seems like that's where his problem actually started.
01:51:23.989 --> 01:51:32.710
However, none of those compare to my ultimate objection, which is the title of the film itself, Cherry.
01:51:32.710 --> 01:51:35.430
In the book, his character has no name.
01:51:35.430 --> 01:51:37.989
In real life, his name is Nico.
01:51:37.989 --> 01:51:46.949
In the book, and in I guess reality, Cherry means a new recruit, someone who has just gotten in from basic training.
01:51:46.949 --> 01:51:51.510
In the movie, his name is Cherry.
01:51:51.510 --> 01:51:56.309
Has anybody ever met a man named Cherry?
01:51:56.309 --> 01:51:57.670
I would bet not.
01:51:57.670 --> 01:52:00.149
So that is my objection.
01:52:00.149 --> 01:52:02.869
Why not name Emily Cherry?
01:52:02.869 --> 01:52:07.109
Why would you have Tom Holland's character be named Cherry?
01:52:07.109 --> 01:52:08.309
That's ridiculous.
01:52:08.710 --> 01:52:10.390
I have a rebuttal for that.
01:52:10.390 --> 01:52:17.430
Cherry's life was pretty stable until he enlisted in the army.
01:52:17.430 --> 01:52:22.710
And I think that is kind of when his life started to spiral.
01:52:23.269 --> 01:52:27.829
You are giving the Russo brothers too much credit on this one.
01:52:28.149 --> 01:52:35.269
The Russo brothers also named Banks Bank Fuck America and like credit bomb.
01:52:35.269 --> 01:52:42.710
And they named a drug dealer as Pills and Coke, and they named the psychiatrist as Doctor Womever.
01:52:43.029 --> 01:52:47.829
And you're proving my point that they're really bad at picking names for things.
01:52:47.829 --> 01:52:51.430
They should not have called Tom Holland's character Cherry.
01:52:51.430 --> 01:52:52.789
It's a love story.
01:52:52.789 --> 01:52:57.189
He was doing a lot of his stuff motivated by love for Emily.
01:52:57.189 --> 01:53:00.470
Why not have Emily's name be Cherry?
01:53:00.470 --> 01:53:05.189
Like, why would you not do that instead of having him be Nico?
01:53:05.670 --> 01:53:11.590
Because they were going off the title of the book, and you said in the book he had no name.
01:53:11.590 --> 01:53:14.069
I under the name Cherry.
01:53:14.069 --> 01:53:16.069
I understand your point.
01:53:16.069 --> 01:53:17.269
I think mine is better.
01:53:17.269 --> 01:53:21.430
They could have given him a scene where he was strumming away on a guitar and they didn't.
01:53:21.909 --> 01:53:33.350
I will let our audience decide which one of us is correct in this instance because I think that naming the character Cherry is a way more useless change.
01:53:33.350 --> 01:53:40.069
Again, for anyone who's not familiar with how the objections work, we're not objecting to like the biggest change.
01:53:40.069 --> 01:53:43.989
We're objecting to the most like unnecessary, stupid.
01:53:43.989 --> 01:53:45.989
Like, why would you even do that?
01:53:45.989 --> 01:53:47.590
That doesn't really help anything.
01:53:47.909 --> 01:53:55.829
So your solution would have been to just have your title character for two and a half hours, Tom Holland, have no name?
01:53:55.829 --> 01:53:57.989
No, I'd have him be named Nico.
01:53:57.989 --> 01:54:00.949
And I'd have Emily be named Cherry.
01:54:00.949 --> 01:54:10.550
I would also have Cherry just sit strung out on drugs, strumming on a guitar, because he likes music.
01:54:11.029 --> 01:54:12.470
That's an omission.
01:54:12.470 --> 01:54:18.229
That's like saying you didn't show someone's yo-yoing hobby in a movie.
01:54:18.229 --> 01:54:21.109
It's not a fig thing to like include.
01:54:21.109 --> 01:54:22.630
It's just like a side thing.
01:54:22.789 --> 01:54:23.189
You're right.
01:54:23.430 --> 01:54:25.510
Mine's more of a major change.
01:54:25.750 --> 01:54:26.470
Pause Remy.
01:54:26.470 --> 01:54:31.989
You just said your selection was more of a major thing.
01:54:31.989 --> 01:54:36.630
And you said mine was a small omission.
01:54:36.630 --> 01:54:41.590
So by the definition of objection of the week, who wins?
01:54:41.909 --> 01:54:49.350
I think changing the whole meaning behind Cherry into a character's name because no one is named Cherry.
01:54:49.350 --> 01:54:52.949
No one is named Pills and Dope or whatever his name was.
01:54:52.949 --> 01:54:55.109
No bank is Banks Fuck America.
01:54:55.109 --> 01:54:56.309
They made a dumb choice.
01:54:56.309 --> 01:54:57.430
They named him Cherry.
01:54:57.430 --> 01:54:58.470
That was dumb.
01:54:58.470 --> 01:54:59.909
That's my objection.
01:55:00.149 --> 01:55:10.869
And you think changing the whole name of the whole movie is a smaller change than just having Cherry play the guitar in one scene?
01:55:10.869 --> 01:55:14.630
But I guess we will just agree to disagree in this.
01:55:14.630 --> 01:55:17.189
What would be the smaller change?
01:55:17.189 --> 01:55:23.430
Changing the name of the book and the title character, or having him play guitar in a scene.
01:55:23.430 --> 01:55:25.269
We will revisit this later.
01:55:29.109 --> 01:55:32.949
All of our objections are usually over in like three minutes.
01:55:32.949 --> 01:55:38.470
Because I am very so passionate about this movie and the true story.
01:55:38.470 --> 01:55:44.069
Clearly, this was impactful because we are very driven to get our points across.
01:55:44.309 --> 01:55:50.710
So we will just choose to agree and disagree, and maybe we will revisit it in the future.
01:55:51.029 --> 01:55:52.309
Alright, it's late.
01:55:52.309 --> 01:55:54.069
We have had a couple drinks.
01:55:54.069 --> 01:55:57.909
I think it's time to take this podcast home.
01:55:57.909 --> 01:56:02.789
What do we have on the horizon two weeks from now, Ashley?
01:56:03.029 --> 01:56:05.350
We are covering the conjuring.
01:56:05.350 --> 01:56:23.750
A case with actually the first and I think only case in the United States where a murder occurred and someone tried to claim self-defense by devil possession.
01:56:24.309 --> 01:56:26.710
Yeah, he said the devil made him do it.
01:56:26.710 --> 01:56:30.710
I saw this movie way back when it came out in theaters.
01:56:30.710 --> 01:56:40.390
I remember being pretty bored in the theater when I watched it, but I am pretty familiar with the real case in this instance.
01:56:40.390 --> 01:56:42.949
So I look forward to our discussion.
01:56:42.949 --> 01:56:47.750
Will it be as impassioned as our carry discussion was tonight?
01:56:47.750 --> 01:56:48.710
Who knows?
01:56:48.710 --> 01:56:52.470
But I think it will be a good chat, regardless.
01:56:52.789 --> 01:56:58.949
It's actually funny because I'm pretty sure the Warrens were also involved in the Amityville horror case.
01:56:58.949 --> 01:57:01.670
So it's kind of weird we're not doing that before.
01:57:01.670 --> 01:57:13.029
But Lorraine and Ed Warren, they were back, I guess, in the 80s, prolific demonologists and really made a name for themselves.
01:57:13.029 --> 01:57:17.029
Maybe you believe what they said and what they experienced.
01:57:17.029 --> 01:57:17.989
Maybe you don't.
01:57:17.989 --> 01:57:21.269
Maybe you need to tune in next week to decide.
01:57:21.590 --> 01:57:25.829
Yes, and thank you all for joining us per usual.
01:57:25.829 --> 01:57:28.390
I hope you enjoyed our banter.
01:57:28.390 --> 01:57:31.029
A lot more fiery than normal tonight.
01:57:31.029 --> 01:57:34.550
I wouldn't have thought this for Cherry, out of all things.
01:57:34.550 --> 01:57:39.430
But I am looking forward to our Devil Made Me Do It episode.
01:57:39.430 --> 01:57:46.229
We have been uploading a lot of stuff on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube.
01:57:46.229 --> 01:57:50.949
We got a YouTube channel now, so check that out at criminal adaptations.
01:57:50.949 --> 01:57:58.149
But until next time, thank you all for joining us, and court is adjourned.
01:58:04.710 --> 01:58:05.350
Hey.
01:58:05.350 --> 01:58:08.309
Okay there?
01:58:09.829 --> 01:58:10.789
Jesus.
01:58:10.789 --> 01:58:14.470
I think I heard someone.
01:58:14.470 --> 01:58:18.149
This is Ed Warren here with Lorraine.
01:58:18.149 --> 01:58:20.069
All right, let's get started.
01:58:23.029 --> 01:58:28.390
Residents of Brookfield were shocked this afternoon by the broad daylight murder of Bruno Sol.
01:58:31.350 --> 01:58:36.550
The court accepts the existence of God every time a witness swears to tell the truth.
01:58:36.550 --> 01:58:43.029
I think it's about time they accept the existence of the devil.
01:58:44.789 --> 01:58:49.829
Whatever was going on, whatever happened that day.
01:58:50.949 --> 01:58:52.470
That was a barney.
01:58:57.909 --> 01:59:00.069
We think your family was cursed.
01:59:00.869 --> 01:59:02.949
And that connection's still open.