1
00:00:00,670.0000166893 --> 00:00:05,629.9996376038
Good afternoon everyone Welcome to Common Ground this is the mediate.com
2
00:00:05,629.9996376038 --> 00:00:52,114.004322529
podcast where we talk about all things dispute resolution-oriented mostly mediation but arbitration peacemaking negotiation and really the human work of finding our way through conflict I am your new host Mo Tregenza and today is a really big day for the show because I'm joined by the person who's been your host for the past several years and one of the most consequential voices in modern dispute resolution who I lovingly refer to as the godfather of ODR Colin Rule Colin you're passing the baton to me today which is really wonderful and I'm so excited I couldn't be more thrilled to take over from your very big and wonderful shoes so I wanna just give you the floor for a second and then hop into our discussion Colin welcome Mo, thank you so much.
3
00:00:52,144.004293919 --> 00:00:59,984.003731251
I am delighted that you're gonna be taking this on, and, we've been discussing some of your plans and all the cool people you're gonna talk to, and I can't wait to listen to your episodes.
4
00:00:59,984.003731251 --> 00:01:01,114.002892017
running the mediate.com
5
00:01:01,114.002892017 --> 00:01:02,964.003273487
podcast has been just a joy.
6
00:01:03,134.003540516 --> 00:01:07,524.002930164
it's such a pleasure to talk to everyone in the field and learn about all the good work that's going on.
7
00:01:07,864.003082752 --> 00:01:08,944.003006458
But, you bring...
8
00:01:08,944.003006458 --> 00:01:14,904.00323534
And your passion for mediation and your enthusiasm for the practice is gonna bring a whole new layer to it.
9
00:01:14,904.00323534 --> 00:01:18,604.002090931
So thank you so much for taking this on, and I'm really delighted to be here with you today.
10
00:01:18,970.002753735 --> 00:02:10,63.99830484
thank you so much I really appreciate your kind words and I know how much fun you and I have talking about this topic because when we get on calls that are supposed to be thirty minutes I feel like they could go for hours So really thrilled to chat today when we started this conversation an idea that I threw out to you was you know are we as mediators leveraging our profession in the field in the way that we can and especially going forward And you have this fantastic history with mediation and you're working on some thinking which I've read recently but you said something recently which I think is so profound and I really wanna dive into this So to quote you We've gotten too comfortable being a part of the establishment So I wanna start there Tell me where that comes from Yeah, you know, it's funny, I did send some thoughts to you before this, and they've been sort of percolating in my mind.
11
00:02:10,483.99838114 --> 00:02:26,183.99799967
You know, I was first trained in the late '80s, by the American Friends Services Committee, which is the service committee of the Quakers in Philadelphia, and I went to a formerly Quaker school, and they had something called the Friends Suburban Project, where they went around and they trained people, in Philadelphia in conflict resolution.
12
00:02:26,183.99799967 --> 00:02:33,343.99784708
And I was lucky enough in the late '80s to get into one of those trainings, and it was such an exciting time in the dispute resolution field.
13
00:02:33,633.99876261 --> 00:02:38,513.99601603
I mean, there were so many organizations that were cropping up to promote dispute resolution.
14
00:02:38,513.99601603 --> 00:02:40,343.99784708
There was the National Institute for Dispute Resolution.
15
00:02:40,573.99738932 --> 00:02:42,823.99738932
There was the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution.
16
00:02:43,203.99769449 --> 00:02:44,213.99983072
I could go on and on.
17
00:02:44,313.99830484 --> 00:02:50,573.99698877
And there were maybe a dozen conferences a year Focused on promoting conflict resolution, promoting dispute resolution.
18
00:02:50,903.99710321 --> 00:02:53,23.99698877
and, there'd be thousands of people that went to these conferences.
19
00:02:53,23.99698877 --> 00:03:05,133.99712229
So me as a young person who first learned about mediation and got passionate about it, and then I became the head of the campus mediation program at my college at Haverford, or the co-chair, and then I wrote my thesis on it, and then I got a job at Nider.
20
00:03:05,133.99712229 --> 00:03:10,973.99841928
So I was, just swept into this movement, and, it just felt like we were coming together.
21
00:03:11,253.99719858 --> 00:03:13,693.99773264
People were saying, "There's a better way to do this."
22
00:03:13,933.99750376 --> 00:03:17,53.99834299
And I had wanted to be a peacemaker when I was in high school, but I didn't really...
23
00:03:17,223.995749 --> 00:03:20,13.99666452
what does that even mean to be a peacemaker? But then I got trained in mediation.
24
00:03:20,13.99666452 --> 00:03:22,713.99742746
I'm like, "Aha, this is the science of peacemaking.
25
00:03:23,53.99758005 --> 00:03:24,983.99407053
I am going to do this, what I want to do with my life."
26
00:03:25,293.99544382 --> 00:03:33,53.99758005
So to look back on those days and see how the culture was changing, how organizations were growing, how young people were being swept up.
27
00:03:33,163.99437571 --> 00:03:38,603.99681711
We even were doing peer mediation trainings, in elementary schools and middle schools and getting people at an early age.
28
00:03:38,823.99727488 --> 00:03:44,773.99376535
that was such a wonderful, heady time in the field, and I contrast it with kind of where we are now.
29
00:03:45,263.99544382 --> 00:03:53,763.99544382
And I find that a lot of the young people that I meet who are passionate about dispute resolution, you know, they're also dispirited by the current environment that we're in.
30
00:03:53,763.99544382 --> 00:04:15,313.99849558
It seems like a lot of the values of dispute resolution, you know, empathy and collaboration, expanding the pie, looking for win-win opportunities, a lot of that stuff is just being overwhelmed with this message, this broader message of bare knuckles negotiation, zero sum, you know, aggregate power and force the other side to do what you want them to do.
31
00:04:15,663.99788523 --> 00:04:27,83.99605417
I really feel that we need to bring back some of that sense of mission, that sense of the movement that I felt in the '80s, because the reality is we need dispute resolution more than ever, and people are hungry for it.
32
00:04:27,273.99849558 --> 00:04:37,903.99330759
I can just see that people feel in their soul they want to be able to talk to people that they disagree with and find a way to coexist and find a way to collaborate and work together.
33
00:04:38,153.99330759 --> 00:04:40,3.99483347
So that's kind of what I...
34
00:04:40,113.99544382 --> 00:04:44,933.99513865
You know, when you said to me too, we've become a little bit too complacent, I think that's true.
35
00:04:44,933.99513865 --> 00:04:51,203.99941111
I think, you know, back in the '80s and even in the '90s, there were this community mediation movement.
36
00:04:51,203.99941111 --> 00:04:52,453.99941111
People were volunteering.
37
00:04:52,723.98842478 --> 00:04:59,174.00063181
You know, students in colleges were petitioning the dean's office to start mediation programs, and now we have those.
38
00:04:59,263.9969697 --> 00:05:00,383.99208689
We did change the culture.
39
00:05:00,843.99880075 --> 00:05:03,293.995749
And now there is mandatory mediation in family courts.
40
00:05:03,293.995749 --> 00:05:10,793.98049021
There is, roommate mediation, but it's been absorbed into the housing office, or it's been absorbed into the courts, and now it's just another administrative step.
41
00:05:11,53.99025583 --> 00:05:19,563.98171091
And I think the novelty and the innovation and the values that undergird the work that we do has been lost a little bit because now we're just part of the way things work.
42
00:05:19,603.97499704 --> 00:05:28,98.97975588
And yeah, there are other innovations too that, I think about like the first time I zipped through a toll booth with an EZ Pass or, the first time I did my taxes online.
43
00:05:28,98.97975588 --> 00:05:29,628.97996569
The first time it was like, "Wow, this is cool.
44
00:05:29,628.97996569 --> 00:05:30,148.97946978
This is amazing.
45
00:05:30,148.97946978 --> 00:05:30,888.98019457
We should promote this."
46
00:05:31,68.97954607 --> 00:05:32,118.9797368
And now it's just normal.
47
00:05:32,158.97969866 --> 00:05:33,748.97985125
It's just the way things are.
48
00:05:33,968.98011827 --> 00:05:38,48.97908831
And the younger generation, it's just always been around, so it's not something they get particularly excited about.
49
00:05:38,378.97901201 --> 00:05:54,98.97756243
So this is-- I wanna inject some of that mission aspect Mm-hmm when I first joined the field, I think is a little bit of an antidote to this kind of complacency or the malaise that I kinda feel has settled over the field in the face of the current environment we're in.
50
00:05:54,318.97878313 --> 00:05:57,108.97588396
So I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but I just feel passionately about this.
51
00:05:57,108.97588396 --> 00:06:58,18.97651339
So yeah, tell me, what are your thoughts? No I love your rant and this is why I think it's so interesting especially as you know I'm like building a company and I agree with you in the way of like I think of mediation as almost like it like being like yoga and so when I was growing up my mom's friends down at the library did yoga for free and I knew like it was important and valuable but for some reason like it wasn't prolific like we know it today And there's a part of me that's like, Someone needs to like make yoga or mediation you know sexy or Hollywood like you know yoga was and now it's like everybody's willing to wear you know buy expensive you know yoga pants and yoga is a part of every exercise So I really agree with you in this sentiment of we've gotta make it exciting because it is and I totally agree When we talk about some of the language around mediation even within our team and our exploring like what do we call ourselves Is neutral a good word Empathy Right.
52
00:06:58,128.97641802 --> 00:07:03,462.97605562
Like being empathetic has turned into a bad thing and wanting That's right.
53
00:07:03,558.97367144 --> 00:07:37,377.96679544
And on the other side I couldn't agree more that one of my biggest fears is if mediation and dispute resolution proliferates in a way that we want it to does it become rote Does it become a part of the process, and then people don't take it seriously and that's what worries me So I love this thinking and I couldn't agree more Like moment of magic in mediation and having a meaningful discussion and conversation when you feel it when you see your parties feel it there's nothing like it right And it Absolutely.
54
00:07:38,33.96730089 --> 00:07:48,817.9666357
where you go from there I love the yoga metaphor, because I think I see people walking around in their Lululemon yoga pants all the time, and I think, "Are these people really doing yoga?" I mean, yoga is similar to mediation.
55
00:07:49,87.96709347 --> 00:07:57,317.96686459
It's existed since time immemorial, and when I go to India, you know, they yoga is a discipline, it's a lifestyle, it's connected to diet, it's connected...
56
00:07:57,567.96686459 --> 00:07:59,207.96816158
But it's a long-term practice.
57
00:07:59,237.96694088 --> 00:08:05,997.96716976
It's something that you put a lot of yourself into, and you get better, and better, and better over time, and I think that is similar to mediation.
58
00:08:06,57.96686459 --> 00:08:10,547.9666357
those of us who've really done it and who are passionate about it, we know the value that can come out of it.
59
00:08:10,877.96846676 --> 00:08:23,537.96831417
But if it just becomes, you know, stretching, and, you do it for five minutes, every other week when your back starts to get tight, are you really doing yoga, you know? Are you really embracing the full range? And I think the same is true with mediation.
60
00:08:23,837.96846676 --> 00:08:34,757.96968746
I actually have worked in some programs, some courts where, they absorbed an external mediation program, and they brought it inside the courts, and now it's staffed with court employees.
61
00:08:35,97.96984005 --> 00:08:47,407.96449947
And, you're working with divorcing couples, and it's kind of a little bit like the DMV, the couples come in, and they sit down with a court employee who has a clipboard, and they just go through, and they check boxes.
62
00:08:47,717.96968746 --> 00:08:49,647.96999264
And then they say, "Okay, well, that's your mediation.
63
00:08:49,647.96999264 --> 00:08:51,67.96816158
Now you can go in front of the judge."
64
00:08:51,97.96694088 --> 00:08:55,187.97090816
And I look at that and say, "Is that really mediation?" I mean, it's, it's, that's not really...
65
00:08:55,427.96877193 --> 00:09:11,167.9666357
When we first made th-these tools, a lot of it was animated by the practice, the discipline of active listening, and reflective practice and, confidentiality and all of these things that were core to the concept of what we were putting in place.
66
00:09:11,367.97121334 --> 00:09:14,103.96845245
Now I feel like it's just becoming a checkbox, Yeah.
67
00:09:14,657.96907711 --> 00:09:17,797.96846676
And, it, it, when you take the heart out of it, I'm not sure it works as well.
68
00:09:18,207.96449947 --> 00:09:30,667.9666357
So that's why I'm saying I, I was so inspired by these practitioners that saw this as a movement when I first joined the field, and I love what you guys are doing at Levelheaded because I think you are reinventing mediation for the younger generation.
69
00:09:30,667.9666357 --> 00:09:31,617.96358395
You're resuscitating it.
70
00:09:31,787.96938229 --> 00:09:37,417.96358395
This isn't just something that, in the '80s, people did, and now you can sort of follow this checklist, and you can do it.
71
00:09:37,707.97212887 --> 00:09:38,827.96724606
It's like, no, this is a whole...
72
00:09:38,857.96602535 --> 00:09:40,57.96297359
It's, as you say, it's like yoga.
73
00:09:40,57.96297359 --> 00:09:40,817.95748043
It's a discipline.
74
00:09:40,977.96114254 --> 00:09:49,57.96297359
What you get out of it is what you put into it, and we should inspire people with the values that undergird this work, as opposed to just say, "Okay, well, here's a checklist.
75
00:09:49,57.96297359 --> 00:09:51,567.97273922
Go do this," and, then you've started your mediation program.
76
00:09:51,768.97333527 --> 00:11:15,448.97102261
Yeah No I I totally I love the idea of the cultural shift and I know this is bold but I I really do have a mission to disrupt the legal system because not not in a nefarious or like evil way My grandfather was a judge and I have a lot of respect for what the legal system means but because I truly know that there is a better way And I think when people experience that like you said it becomes something that you want to be disciplined about It's funny because I just did I worked with the first mediation practicum at CU Boulder So their law school did a class and they worked with Levelheaded in a court that we're working with here and then they worked with another court and I had no idea that they were working together but you're right They that the other court had brought in mediation into the courthouse They now have court administrators watching over the mediation and it is a really stark difference of what is the mediation results in that courtroom where it's been absorbed and really Right and qui a totally different process versus what we do and I think really honoring mediation Absolutely.
77
00:11:15,449.97434139 --> 00:11:33,258.97019768
more about a discipline and realizing how much the thought and the concept of mediation is more than just the practice right It is like it's almost like a cultural shift that needs to happen And when you talk about, your grandfather who was a judge, you might know this, I'm a descendant of Oliver Wendell Holmes, actually, the Supreme Court justice.
78
00:11:33,528.9698925 --> 00:11:34,548.96939659
I'm not a lawyer.
79
00:11:34,668.97023582 --> 00:11:39,178.97046471
My background's in public policy and dispute resolution, but I've read a lot of Holmes because of the connection.
80
00:11:39,608.97076988 --> 00:11:41,828.97008324
And, he talks a lot about the beauty of the law.
81
00:11:41,828.97008324 --> 00:11:51,138.96954918
This is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, that we built this system and we have this evolving series of rules and guidelines that can help us build peace within society.
82
00:11:51,438.97069359 --> 00:11:57,628.97122765
I think that we as mediators deeply respect that, and we often talk about how mediation lives in the shadow of the law.
83
00:11:57,998.97015953 --> 00:11:59,538.97107506
But there's also, I...
84
00:11:59,578.96817589 --> 00:12:05,458.969244
There was a book called The Bramble Bush, which was intended for, you know, first-year law students back in the 1920s.
85
00:12:05,868.96909142 --> 00:12:13,528.96512413
And, the author, Llewellyn, he says, "What is the law really about? Fundamentally, the law is about preventing and resolving disputes."
86
00:12:13,528.96512413 --> 00:12:15,208.96542931
That's why the law exists.
87
00:12:15,358.96695518 --> 00:12:20,258.96848106
It's a very complicated dispute resolution process, but it's only one of many processes.
88
00:12:20,298.96558189 --> 00:12:26,78.96436119
And, you know, many of us have the Abraham Lincoln quote on our walls, you know, as mediators, "Discourage litigation," you know.
89
00:12:26,128.96436119 --> 00:12:28,398.96100426
help your neighbors understand that they can work these things out.
90
00:12:28,688.95734215 --> 00:12:47,858.96314049
I think, you know, I was-- When I came into the field, it was part of this big upswing of dispute resolution, and I just got caught up in it, and I was so proud of all the changes that were happening in society, and that's what makes me sad to see that, you know, hey, I feel like the values that undergird dispute resolution are kind of falling out of favor.
91
00:12:48,198.96253014 --> 00:12:55,238.96344566
And when I, when I get, you know, anxious about current events, I often look to history because it contextualizes our experience.
92
00:12:55,618.96222019 --> 00:13:05,338.96260643
And then I realized, you know, this has been a struggle since time immemorial to fight for these values of peacemaking and empathy and connection and dialogue.
93
00:13:05,768.96195793 --> 00:13:09,768.96195793
And we're celebrating at the American Arbitration Association, we're celebrating our 100th anniversary.
94
00:13:10,258.96172905 --> 00:13:16,658.96134758
And the founder of AAA, Francis Keller, when she first put together the organization, she was part of this movement too.
95
00:13:16,658.96134758 --> 00:13:20,668.96157646
You can read her writings, and it sounds just like the writings from the 1980s.
96
00:13:20,948.96226311 --> 00:13:23,148.96302605
And it was this idea of, we can work this out.
97
00:13:23,148.96302605 --> 00:13:24,578.96142387
We can collaborate with each other.
98
00:13:24,778.96218681 --> 00:13:29,818.96310234
We can resolve problems in a smarter way that doesn't require the scorched earth techniques.
99
00:13:29,988.96127129 --> 00:13:30,918.96157646
And it wasn't just her.
100
00:13:31,98.96188164 --> 00:13:32,398.9611187
It was Mary Parker Follett.
101
00:13:32,398.9611187 --> 00:13:33,678.96371269
It was Jane Addams.
102
00:13:33,678.96371269 --> 00:13:39,228.96676445
There was a whole movement in the '20s and '30s to do this, and, I realize it stretches even before them.
103
00:13:39,478.96676445 --> 00:13:41,518.96310234
So this is a constant fight.
104
00:13:41,748.96264458 --> 00:13:51,48.96417046
There is always the temptation to slide into, prejudice and, judgment and otherism and in-group versus out-group.
105
00:13:51,274.96267319 --> 00:13:54,888.96432304
嗯 This is just part of human psychology, and it has been around time immemorial.
106
00:13:55,178.96523857 --> 00:13:58,608.96172905
But that's why it's so important that we keep fighting this fight.
107
00:13:58,818.96844292 --> 00:14:26,478.959898
And even in a time where it doesn't feel like our values are in ascendance, maybe they're a little bit in retreat, we have to preserve this flame of the work that we do because there's gonna come a time when the pendulum swings back the other way, and we have to use that flame and go and light all the lanterns again and remind people how coexistence can operate and how we can resolve disputes in a peaceful way that builds relationships, builds trust, builds empathy and connection, as opposed to the division that I think we see all around us these days.
108
00:14:26,709.96110439 --> 00:15:36,918.95440483
Yeah I absolutely agree and I also think maybe we're at the cusp of sort of a seismic shift again much like when you were developing your love for mediation There were political and outside things happening that really bore into that sort of cultural mindset and shift and I almost feel like we're getting there right And this need to say Hey you know we are all humans and we can sit down at the same table is becoming more put in the spotlight And I This just made me think of a few years ago there was this really compelling I think it was on Colorado CPR Colorado Public Radio it may have been national But they went around the country and identified different individuals who had really opposite viewpoints of controversial issues So abortion diversity in school Gun issues and they brought people with very different ends of the spectrum to the same table and we were involved with it because mediation right So they did this tour and brought people to the same room and had these open dialogues and it was absolutely magical what came out of it Absolutely.
109
00:15:36,949.95657921 --> 00:16:01,18.95504379
they could share their differences of opinion but they realized their humanity in one another and what they came out of it from that was a totally different sense of how they saw the world And I think that right now we're so in need of that mindset shift and that's where the practice of mediation and dispute resolution really demonstrates that Well, I think that there are conflict resolvers, and I think that there are conflict exacerbators.
110
00:16:01,368.95494843 --> 00:16:07,148.95515823
And, you know, Bernie Mayer has written very persuasively about this in his many books about how we are conflict specialists.
111
00:16:07,148.95515823 --> 00:16:09,828.95546341
We're not just about resolve everything, resolve everything.
112
00:16:10,28.95527267 --> 00:16:14,108.95424271
Sometimes there are times when you do have to escalate a conflict in order to make progress.
113
00:16:14,468.95485306 --> 00:16:19,628.95470047
And, you know, again, I am not averse to fighting, you know? Like getting out in the streets and making your...
114
00:16:19,668.955616 --> 00:16:24,328.95737076
As long as you follow the rules, you know? Like, look, we have an obligation to speak up for what we believe.
115
00:16:24,708.95653152 --> 00:16:29,598.95782852
But yes, dialogue is possible even in these most divisive of civil issues.
116
00:16:29,708.95752335 --> 00:16:36,408.95447159
I grew up in Texas, and I now live in California, and many of my friends from the two places, they see the world in very different ways.
117
00:16:36,678.95492935 --> 00:16:46,68.954319
But I love them equally, and I think this idea that we can coexist, our self-interest, our worldviews may contradict, but we can disagree without being disagreeable.
118
00:16:46,108.9552345 --> 00:16:56,908.9561501
I think, right now there's just a sense that that's, "Oh, that's weakness," you know? That's, you just don't really care enough about your beliefs that you're not willing to go out and fight the other side about them.
119
00:16:56,948.9494362 --> 00:16:58,478.9558449
And I don't think that's what this is at all.
120
00:16:58,648.9540138 --> 00:17:12,658.9476051
I think we all hunger for our ability to coexist even when we disagree, and it's not that we have to take these issues that are most polarizing and push them to the front of the conversation and use it to delegitimi- de- de- delegitimize the viewpoints of the other side.
121
00:17:12,878.9497414 --> 00:17:16,628.9451637
I sense that hunger and I'm mainly talking about the United States.
122
00:17:16,628.9451637 --> 00:17:52,298.9418068
having traveled to other countries, many other countries are in a very different head space than the US, and I think they look at what's going on in the United States with dismay, saying, "Wow, how did this happen?" But I do think that, especially with all of the disruption being introduced by technological change, I think it's been an opportunity for the conflict exacerbators to get an upper hand, and now it's time for the conflict resolvers to push back because that's really the way that this works, is we learn how to live together and even disagree, but, learn to coexist and understand what we share in common exceeds the things that we disagree about.
123
00:17:52,519.9421048 --> 00:18:49,589.9416375
our common humanity is so beautiful and I want to touch on this because I think it's so important and something good for our listeners I have also just repeatedly been sort of asked like Why the United States And when I go abroad to different conferences it is just almost the difference of the appetite for mediation and dispute resolution and how people embrace it in other cultures almost makes the US look like we're in the Dark Ages and I think the current political narrative it really exacerbates that And I think you know this that's why this moment for sort of this seismic shift is so so important Right Absolutely.
124
00:18:50,575.9436212 --> 00:19:06,619.9445367
Most of those people don't have lawyers and it really affects people and we really don't have a good way to to deal with that What what are your thoughts on that and how dispute resolution comes in I mean, the irony is dispute resolution is more needed now than ever.
125
00:19:06,869.9442506 --> 00:19:12,29.9438119
I think back to my heroes from the '80s, they didn't have all the tools that we have at our disposal.
126
00:19:12,239.94385 --> 00:19:15,29.9438119
They didn't have AI, they didn't have mobile phones, they didn't have Zoom.
127
00:19:15,399.9438882 --> 00:19:25,309.9437356
the constraints of geography were way more of a burden on their ability to try and expand access to dispute resolution services than we're freed now that we have these tools in our toolbox.
128
00:19:25,619.9432015 --> 00:19:50,449.9427438
So the goals that they had of ex- of fast and fair resolutions for all, they did the best they could in their era, but now we can utilize these tools, and that's why I'm excited about online dispute resolution as well, because, my friend Richard Susskind, who's the chief IT advisor to the Lord Chief Justice in the UK, he's written in many of his books about 50% of people on Earth don't have meaningful access to a justice system, to...
129
00:19:50,449.9427438 --> 00:19:57,659.9418283
And he calls, they're kind of like the unjusticed, right? Mm-hmm Peace Corps in rural Africa, in Eritrea, and I saw that.
130
00:19:57,789.9428964 --> 00:20:04,209.94488
There was not a meaningful redress system, a justice system was available to most of my neighbors in Dekemhare in Eritrea.
131
00:20:04,639.9451852 --> 00:20:15,84.9457717
But how can we solve that problem? You know, I think the tools that we had before, it just was prohibitively complicated to try and figure out how do we expand- meaningful redress around the world.
132
00:20:15,334.9457717 --> 00:20:29,524.9452806
Well, if dispute resolution is a service, it's not a place, and we can deliver it through technology, well, then suddenly we have a way to reach that other 50% of people on the planet that don't have a way to get a fair resolution to a problem when they encounter it.
133
00:20:29,904.9463487 --> 00:20:39,854.9466538
And I think y- you know, the irony of our moment is that while the values of dispute resolution seem to be kind of under pressure, the need for dispute resolution is greater than ever before.
134
00:20:39,854.9466538 --> 00:20:48,64.9476457
And when you talk about the crisis of self-represented pro se litigants, you know, 80% of civil cases in the United States have one party that's unrepresented.
135
00:20:48,444.9448991 --> 00:20:50,364.9468827
You know, we need to think outside the box.
136
00:20:50,364.9468827 --> 00:20:55,934.9465775
We need to think in creative ways, and that was the reason why we called the field ADR initially, 'cause it was an alternative.
137
00:20:55,934.9465775 --> 00:20:58,294.9471879
It was an alternative to what? It was an alternative to the courts.
138
00:20:58,834.9442887 --> 00:21:02,954.9470353
and the other thing is, you know, dispute resolution has been around s- as long as humanity has been around.
139
00:21:03,4.9470353 --> 00:21:12,744.9448991
I've got, images on my computer of disputes from ancient Mesopotamia, where people are arguing about, you know, the quality of the copper ingots, that were sold from one merchant to another.
140
00:21:12,984.9458146 --> 00:21:22,324.9467301
and, you know, there's arbitration awards in ancient Rome and in England at the time of the Magna Carta and even in-- There's an arbitration clause in George Washington's will.
141
00:21:22,584.9488664 --> 00:21:23,944.9494767
So none of this is new.
142
00:21:24,234.9503922 --> 00:21:26,894.9510026
That's what I'm saying, is sometimes we can be a little...
143
00:21:26,894.9510026 --> 00:21:28,154.9531388
We have a recency bias.
144
00:21:28,424.9497819 --> 00:21:31,153.9497461
got some visitors Excuse the interrupt I got a dog here too.
145
00:21:31,443.949708 --> 00:21:31,893.9495173
But, I, I...
146
00:21:31,893.9495173 --> 00:21:35,873.9495363
My point is, this has been going on as long as there have been people.
147
00:21:35,913.9494982 --> 00:21:42,3.9498415
Our self-interests, overlap, and they, they can come into conflict, and we have to figure out how to work it out.
148
00:21:42,33.9495745 --> 00:21:46,463.948926
And every society has figured out how to provide fast and fair resolutions.
149
00:21:46,723.9491549 --> 00:22:10,83.9512148
And that's why we in the dispute resolution field, we have to maintain that push, maintain that activism, speak out, train new people, expose people to the values of the field, share what we've learned in terms of our practices with, new practitioners, because that's the only way that we can continue, you know, to ensure that these values are active, vital, and alive in our society.
150
00:22:11,34.9507642 --> 00:22:23,283.9504232
Yeah I mean I always tell people Look like problems are a part of life Much like taxes nobody's going to avoid them And I always go back to the history of mediation and to your point like Right.
151
00:22:23,394.9505281 --> 00:22:32,463.9495554
how old it is because the power of people being able to resolve conflicts through conversation is as old as language itself probably Exactly.
152
00:22:32,604.9488497 --> 00:23:04,58.947052
basic and useful tool and I think its ability to turn to turn people's cultures and mindset into something that really sinks into the rest of how you operate is just so so important And again problems are a part of life and if you have a better mindset and way to think of and address them not only do you and I both know that you will have a more durable resolution you will have a higher satisfactory of your dispute resolution experience all the things that follow along with that are just so so imperative For sure.
153
00:23:04,198.9470377 --> 00:23:06,978.9472475
I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I love the framing of Levelheaded.
154
00:23:07,664.9471021 --> 00:23:10,248.9470377
Yeah it's reinventing it for a younger generation.
155
00:23:10,248.9470377 --> 00:23:15,688.9475718
It's packaging it in a way it doesn't feel like some dusty training book, you know, from decades ago.
156
00:23:15,718.9473047 --> 00:23:17,68.9476862
It's like, no, this is vital.
157
00:23:17,68.9476862 --> 00:23:17,698.9478006
This is real.
158
00:23:17,698.9478006 --> 00:23:20,718.9473047
This is a part of the life that you experience every day.
159
00:23:21,228.9475336 --> 00:23:22,718.9473047
Bring this in to your life.
160
00:23:22,748.9479914 --> 00:23:24,38.9469996
And it's a discipline, as you say.
161
00:23:24,38.9469996 --> 00:23:25,628.9471521
I think mediation is one of those things.
162
00:23:25,858.9478388 --> 00:23:31,168.9480677
it's equal part science and, art, and I think you get out of it what you put into it.
163
00:23:31,168.9480677 --> 00:23:37,878.9471521
So i- it's not just expressing, "Okay, hey, we have a mediation program, and it's down here, and you click this button, and you can file a case."
164
00:23:38,78.9479151 --> 00:23:38,778.948678
It's more than that.
165
00:23:38,778.948678 --> 00:23:39,898.9476099
It's a whole value system.
166
00:23:39,898.9476099 --> 00:23:51,548.9491358
It's a whole paradigm, and I think that's what we as a field need to reclaim and not feel like, "Well, you know, we did get these things integrated into the establishment, so we're done."
167
00:23:51,908.9497461 --> 00:23:55,398.9476099
It's like, no, we have to continue to fight and continue to advance on all fronts.
168
00:23:55,634.9482036 --> 00:24:18,328.9482512
I think that's what's really exciting about the younger generations and talked about mediation being taught in schools We're seeing it more at universities here and there's such an appetite for it younger people and even children's ability to engage with meaningful dispute resolution is so compelling and they have that capacity and desire almost more than adults Yeah.
169
00:24:18,328.9482512 --> 00:24:22,878.948442
You know, my first entree, as I said, I ran the campus mediation program, and I wrote a thesis on it.
170
00:24:23,278.9487281 --> 00:24:35,478.9487281
but I got involved with this organization, the National Association for Mediation in Education, and it was interesting 'cause I was interested in the higher ed side, but lots of the people who ran NAME, were elementary school teachers, middle school teachers.
171
00:24:35,918.9492621 --> 00:24:45,78.9491096
And I think it was in the '70s that the community boards, which is one of the first conflict resolution organizations that worked with kids, came up and created training materials to teach this in schools.
172
00:24:45,428.949491 --> 00:24:58,48.9484229
And they, they had studies, there's actually some really interesting videos about this, where they would train elementary school kids to, you know, in basic peacemaking skills, and then they would hand out every recess, one kid would get the mediator shirt.
173
00:24:58,344.9478698 --> 00:25:05,318.9488807
Oh T-shirt, and their job during recess was to go around and, you know, look for conflicts and see if they could play a role.
174
00:25:05,688.9478126 --> 00:25:13,488.9470496
And it, the, the videos are so compelling to see students who really took this seriously and wanted to be a force for good and wanted to engage.
175
00:25:13,858.946897 --> 00:25:19,368.9490333
and then there was also Children's Creative Response to Conflict, which was a similar organization that worked with elementary school kids.
176
00:25:19,638.9456763 --> 00:25:25,773.9452567
And then when I was at the National Institute for Dispute Resolution, we had something called CRENET Which was the Conflict Resolution and Education Network.
177
00:25:26,123.9453998 --> 00:25:31,703.9455619
So even Clara Fowler, who's on my team, I mean, she's got a PhD in this and she edits mediate.com,
178
00:25:31,923.9458289 --> 00:25:34,663.9456
she was first trained as a peer mediator in school.
179
00:25:35,54.9453783 --> 00:25:35,734.9453855
Oh.
180
00:25:36,193.945333 --> 00:25:46,843.9459052
out here in California at their public elementary school, they had something called the Peacebuilders Pledge, and every day the kids would stand up, say the Pledge of Allegiance, and then they would recite the Peacebuilders Pledge, which was on every wall.
181
00:25:47,153.9453712 --> 00:26:06,273.9375129
So on the one hand, it's exciting that these things happened and that they were built in to our culture, but if it just becomes something that you say and you don't really think about it and you're not doing these trainings and people aren't getting inspired, they don't understand the value to themselves in learning these skills and bringing it into their lives, then we're losing something.
182
00:26:06,273.9375129 --> 00:26:14,743.9387336
We're losing a spark that I think made this uniquely effective because it's, important to have that passion to animate your practice.
183
00:26:15,143.9402595 --> 00:26:23,503.9408698
And if you just get somebody says, "Hey, do you wanna do this job you don't know anything about? You've not been trained, you've not read anything about it," it can feel a little administrative, and it loses some of the magic.
184
00:26:23,833.9427009 --> 00:26:29,323.9405646
So, that's what I love about the work that we do, Mo, is we get to try and reinject some of that magic.
185
00:26:29,323.9405646 --> 00:26:35,253.9408698
And I'm inspired by the leaders in the '80s whose shoulders I stood upon when I was building my practice.
186
00:26:35,453.9454474 --> 00:26:45,213.9323249
And now I wanna say to people, "Climb on my back," you know? let me show you because I remember how vital this practice can be and we need to inspire the next generation the same way that I was inspired.
187
00:26:45,879.9338365 --> 00:27:19,283.9353766
Oh yeah Well I'm right there climbing on your back screaming from the rooftops people are climbing on your backs too, I think that it's so interesting I love I think being a parent almost like invites your capacity to think more critically about disputes and like your love and like simplicity for a child And I think of when I was in elementary school it wasn't for my class but another one of the teachers was getting married and they asked the class to come up with what love was and what marriage was And it was like kindergartners or you know very young Sure.
188
00:27:19,699.9364781 --> 00:28:38,498.9386048
their recommendations were so pure and innocent and lovely and true right It was like rub their feet or you know give them a hug or draw them pictures that they like and it seemed so rudimentary but was so true And the book you know was these little scribbling drawings of this class but it kind of blew up as like oh yeah this is this is what love and marriage is about And I think in so many ways like mediation really has that opportunity too for people to realize like you know problems are a part of life and yet you absolutely inherently as a human have the capacity to solve them given just a little bit of empowerment and love what you say because it's really exciting I think when people meet me for a mediation they're almost like blown away that I come in there and I'm like Yes we get to do this And you're in this moment of conflict but like I can't wait to talk about this and I can't wait to help you get through it and see that there is another side that you know surprising to you is actually gonna feel really different And I think sharing in that fervor and that excitement is one of my absolute favorite things about this podcast really but also what I get to share with people is like it it this can be a really good thing And I don't wanna minimize disputes right Sometimes they are very heavy and very difficult For sure.
189
00:28:38,634.9373937 --> 00:28:57,548.9385381
but I think so much of what we do in life is about your mindset and how you think you're gonna tackle it And it can be serious right But I think we can inject so much goodness into it if we look at it in a different framework Well, I think one of your greatest superpowers is your enthusiasm and your excitement about the field.
190
00:28:57,598.9387288 --> 00:29:04,668.9384236
And, you know, people don't invite us into the negotiation room with them because, you know, we have the experts, we have all the answers.
191
00:29:04,674.9386287 --> 00:29:08,608.9393773
Mm-hmm they bring us in because, we can help them get disputes resolved.
192
00:29:08,638.940064 --> 00:29:14,778.9375463
And I don't like the word neutral because it just makes you seem like you're just completely, you don't have any opinions about anything.
193
00:29:14,778.9375463 --> 00:29:15,828.9386907
You're totally removed.
194
00:29:15,828.9386907 --> 00:29:17,158.9386144
You're unemotional.
195
00:29:17,438.9380803 --> 00:29:25,718.9368596
I love that Ken Cloke talks about omnipartiality, right? Where I am an advocate for everybody in this room, and I don't have a bias towards party A or party B.
196
00:29:25,718.9368596 --> 00:29:30,278.9382329
I do have a bias towards resolution, and I think there is a, there's an element of faith to that.
197
00:29:30,278.9382329 --> 00:29:31,818.9391484
There's an, an element of passion.
198
00:29:32,48.9386907 --> 00:29:34,578.93747
You have to be interested in people to do this work.
199
00:29:34,968.9368596 --> 00:29:37,748.9394536
And I love when you talk about, families and young people.
200
00:29:37,778.9382329 --> 00:29:48,788.9396062
I think, you know, if you see the world as a hostile place with a lot of people that are coming to take advantage of you and you're just a solo actor, well then the temptation is fight, fight, fight, and push everybody back.
201
00:29:49,88.9388433 --> 00:30:01,38.9434209
But once you get into a family, once you get into a community, once you get into a workplace, once you get into, you know, a church or a temple or a mosque, you start to see, well, wait a minute, there are opportunities for us to work together.
202
00:30:01,328.9431157 --> 00:30:05,238.9391484
and really, I mean, at least for me, the thing that animates me is love.
203
00:30:05,268.9379277 --> 00:30:19,93.943974
And so I think we need to remember that love is at the heart of so much of what we do, and I think communicating that and creating that environment Makes people want to invite you into the room because mediators hold the calm, mediators hold the possibility of a solution.
204
00:30:19,543.9442601 --> 00:30:22,463.9433827
And you have to believe that in order for the parties to believe that.
205
00:30:22,513.9433827 --> 00:30:24,163.9430013
so that's what I love about the work that I do.
206
00:30:24,163.9430013 --> 00:30:26,213.943192
It's why I feel this kinship with mediators.
207
00:30:26,243.942925 --> 00:30:30,893.9434972
I love hanging around mediators 'cause we all have this faith that we can find solutions.
208
00:30:31,173.9434209 --> 00:30:32,103.9437261
we can work it out.
209
00:30:32,383.9444127 --> 00:30:33,543.9442601
That's the way that I feel.
210
00:30:33,543.9442601 --> 00:30:37,333.9402165
So that's the energy that you bring into the room, Mo, and that's why you're so good at what you do.
211
00:30:37,633.941361 --> 00:30:37,833.9402165
Yeah.
212
00:30:37,974.9410605 --> 00:31:04,343.9397683
Thank you I really think that what you just said too is is really important and it's something that I remember when I first started you know like this concept of neutrality was so difficult right And also because like we hear we're biased and I hear people often talk about you know resolution rates You can't talk about that because then you're not biased and there was something someone else said to me I think it was last week as you know I went to the Harvard Advanced Mediation course Right.
213
00:31:04,369.9400306 --> 00:31:47,763.938581
one of the professors said something so profound about you know a mediator's desire or need to solve the problem And I think what he said and I won't quote anyone here because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong was something along the lines of like of course we want people to get to a resolution and that means that you know we care about it and you you can't be neutral And I think that's what's really interesting about a lot of mediation terms right We put ourselves in the neutral level or you know we can't be too resolution-oriented But at the end of the day what our mission is at the end to have these meaningful dialogues is really that and I love that you brought this up Like we're we're not neutral What did you say Omni Omnipartial.
214
00:31:47,763.938581 --> 00:31:55,878.9388766
It's not my idea, that's Ken Cloke's idea, but I love that idea because it's like I'm not neutral Yeah am biased towards resolution.
215
00:31:55,878.9388766 --> 00:32:01,388.9389148
you want me here because I have that bias, Yes I do believe that we can find a zone of agreement.
216
00:32:01,388.9389148 --> 00:32:02,388.9389148
We can put together.
217
00:32:02,668.9386477 --> 00:32:05,88.938724
And even if the parties don't believe it, I believe it.
218
00:32:05,88.938724 --> 00:32:09,638.9379611
So, and that's the value that we bring as third parties, as mediators in these negotiations.
219
00:32:09,978.9381137 --> 00:32:27,248.9385715
And, you know, again, there's so many styles of mediation, right? Everything from evaluative, kind of table-banging, you know, you think about mediation with a gavel that some ex-judges do, all the way to transformative, which is very relationship-focused, and counseling, and nurturing, and talking about the context outside of the individual dispute.
220
00:32:27,528.9373508 --> 00:32:41,808.9429965
I myself am a facilitative mediator, but, I feel like all of those elements are in the work that we do, and everybody needs to find their spot in the field where they feel like they can provide value, and it syncs with their, unique kind of emotional intelligence and their skills.
221
00:32:42,158.9414706 --> 00:33:07,838.9379611
So again, I just have gotten so much out of this field, and I don't want to sound like an evangelist, like saying, "Well, everybody's gotta take the medicine and sign up," you know? but I really do feel when I look around, at so much dismay and so many people who are just so depressed about where we are, and I'm like, "Look, I feel like I know a way back," you know? and eventually the pendulum is gonna swing back and hopefully all the things that we care about in the dispute resolution field, will come to the fore.
222
00:33:08,259.9361372 --> 00:34:03,788.9375033
Yeah So we've been talking a lot about something that I can't help but wanna ask you You know we've become too built into the establishment and there's something so like I think fundamentally organic and real about mediation that like there's this tension of like you can't be in the establishment because of like the true humanity of it And so my question to you is and this is honestly something I struggle with is I really feel like as a profession we sort of do ourselves a disfavor by not having more I oh I don't like this word it's a big word but like regulation and framework about what we are and how we practice and what we do But by the nature of doing that right we kind of become like pro-establishment so there's tension there me what you think about that Yeah, you know, th- this is something that I've wrestled with over the course of my career.
223
00:34:04,168.9376178 --> 00:34:09,748.9380755
You know, I, I, you know, when I first learned about mediation, I'm like, "This is amazing," you know? "I have a hammer and everything is a nail."
224
00:34:10,18.938221 --> 00:34:14,338.9382138
and I wrote my thesis on it, and my advisor at Bryn Mawr, he was an anthropologist.
225
00:34:14,668.9381375 --> 00:34:17,658.9379087
And he said, "Okay, I can see you're very enthusiastic about this.
226
00:34:17,938.9376416 --> 00:34:23,878.9374127
Why don't you go read some of the critics of dispute resolution?" and I read Loren Nader, who was Ralph Nader's sister.
227
00:34:23,908.9380994 --> 00:34:32,478.9351239
She was an anthropologist at Berkeley, and she was critical of dispute resolution in some nuanced ways, and there were some other articles from the, procedural side.
228
00:34:32,478.9351239 --> 00:34:44,688.9368787
But one of the things that Loren Nader talked about is dispute resolution, it personalizes disputes, if we have a systemic issue that's generating conflict, it's generating injustice, if you personalize it down to two people...
229
00:34:44,688.9368787 --> 00:34:53,548.9336743
Think about, like, if you're on a college campus and there's a dispute between a white student and a Black student in a dorm, and there may be a racial element to that dispute.
230
00:34:53,948.9352002 --> 00:35:06,728.9352002
Well, the housing office can start a mediation program and bring in those two students, and they can sit down with a mediator, and they can work it out between the two of them and come up with an agreement that, you know, resolves the issue and maybe reestablishes some of the trust between them.
231
00:35:07,8.9339795 --> 00:35:24,358.9362683
But what about the whole environments on their hall that they were in or the dorm that they were in or the campus writ large? That mediation, by taking it into a confidential process and saying, "This is about these two people," you're missing the forest for the trees, because there are broader issues that may create more disputes over time that are being unaddressed.
232
00:35:24,708.9347425 --> 00:35:35,818.9210095
So that still resonates with me a little bit, you know? Yes Bernie Mayer, m- my good friend Bernie Mayer I mentioned before, and Jackie Funk Guzman, they came up with this, they wrote a, an amazing book called "The Neutrality Trap."
233
00:35:36,308.9188733 --> 00:35:39,788.9222302
And they were talking about, again, as we're not conflict resolvers.
234
00:35:39,788.9222302 --> 00:35:44,348.9197888
It's not like every conflict needs to be resolved, and there's not some ideal state where we have no conflict.
235
00:35:44,688.9237561 --> 00:35:46,898.9228406
Conflict is an inevitable part of the human condition.
236
00:35:47,298.9243665 --> 00:35:50,338.925282
But, you know, there is a time when it's appropriate to protest.
237
00:35:50,338.925282 --> 00:36:03,988.9268079
It's a t- there's a time when it's appropriate to escalate a dispute because there's a systemic change that needs to happen, and the only way that that systemic change can be triggered is if the contradiction is illuminated, and sometimes protest is a way to do that.
238
00:36:04,168.9271131 --> 00:36:14,398.9228406
Now, they also make the point that dispute resolution is intimately tied to protest, because every protest, to be effective, is gonna end in a negotiation at some point to establish the change.
239
00:36:15,358.9295735 --> 00:36:28,548.9298024
So this isn't about we all just become angels, and we erase all the need, and we achieve some sort of zen state where, all of our individual needs are washed away, and we just can, neutrally examine every issue and try and figure out how to restore the balance.
240
00:36:28,818.9294972 --> 00:36:30,228.9293447
I think you can be passionate.
241
00:36:30,378.9289632 --> 00:36:40,598.9280477
You can go in, have a perspective, fight for what you think is right, but also maintain the ability to talk with the other side, walk a mile in the other person's shoes, look at the situation through their eyes.
242
00:36:40,798.9288106 --> 00:36:42,558.9290395
It doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.
243
00:36:42,558.9290395 --> 00:36:47,258.9278951
It doesn't mean that everything that we're passionate about, we have to throw out in order to achieve peace.
244
00:36:47,258.9278951 --> 00:36:48,178.9298787
No, that's not the case.
245
00:36:48,448.9303365 --> 00:37:02,698.9303365
We can find our common humanity, our common shared underlying interests, and we can build a connection on the basis of that, and then still, that's fine, live in a world where we disagree about some of the individual positions that we may have.
246
00:37:03,38.9304891 --> 00:37:20,558.9271321
So again, if there's any faith that I have as a mediator, is that our common connection to each other outweighs our narrow territorial positions, and we shouldn't focus on these individual difficult issues where we might strongly disagree to the exclusion of that deeper connection we share.
247
00:37:20,824.9286532 --> 00:37:55,388.9278927
Yeah I think your point is really great too because I see the tension there but it's also like your ability to see common ground or that common connection with someone on an individual capacity also translate into the importance of it in a greater sense right And how that means when we're operating you know as a society as a culture as we're thinking of even you know smaller communities or a college campus and that is really telling of the impact of that right And sometimes you need to see that for yourself to see the significance of that for the greater purpose Yeah, and there's a lot of...
248
00:37:55,418.9281025 --> 00:38:07,8.9284935
I learned my dispute resolution graduate work was with social psychologists, so they spent a lot of time talking about fundamental attribution error and, you know, just cognitive weaknesses that humans have.
249
00:38:07,38.9282265 --> 00:38:13,698.9288368
And there's even a basis in neuroscience for why we can get caught in some of these traps that repeat conflict over and over again.
250
00:38:13,738.927845 --> 00:38:17,988.927845
But that's why I think we as conflict resolvers need to maintain that frame.
251
00:38:17,988.927845 --> 00:38:19,58.9275398
We need to hold the calm.
252
00:38:19,108.9275398 --> 00:38:26,838.927845
Because we can get into an individual dispute, and then we lose sight of perspective, and then we just go further and further down the rabbit hole of escalation.
253
00:38:27,128.9287605 --> 00:38:31,128.9279976
And I think mediators and dispute resolution can help pull us out of that, which is a gift.
254
00:38:31,158.9267769 --> 00:38:33,438.9255562
I think people say to me, "What a terrible job.
255
00:38:33,438.9255562 --> 00:38:34,908.9267769
You're just with fighting people all day."
256
00:38:35,208.9260139 --> 00:38:37,418.9250984
It's like, "No, no, I get to help them stop fighting."
257
00:38:37,418.9250984 --> 00:38:41,428.9272347
That's the best thing that you can do, you know, the best job you can have.
258
00:38:41,468.9272347 --> 00:38:48,778.927845
anyway, you can tell I'm passionate about this, and I know we share that passion, and I wanna spark that passion in more people because I, I sense there's a hunger for it.
259
00:38:49,384.9267602 --> 00:38:55,494.9267769
I agree with everything you're there's I share also a you the enthusiasm for this technology.
260
00:38:55,494.9267769 --> 00:38:58,164.9267769
I think it can be some game-changer.
261
00:38:58,164.9267769 --> 00:39:09,184.9270272
Some of the platforms that we have seen, like ChatGPT, right There is a better way and there is thinking and process And not that we've touched on it create but I think answers very quickly.
262
00:39:09,214.9269986 --> 00:39:16,604.9270439
And I want to ask about speed and accuracy.
263
00:39:16,654.9272347 --> 00:39:43,958.9248505
How do you balance those two things? have the ability to to access more people to provide access of mediation to more people but also you know to spread education and awareness about ODR and mediation I wanna ask you just because we're coming to the top of our time here if people are interested in learning more about how they can use technology in mediation what are what are some of the things that you point them to Well, it's, this is the hottest topic.
264
00:39:43,958.9248505 --> 00:39:48,418.9254131
95% of my presentations these days Mm-hmm You know, mediate.com
265
00:39:48,418.9254131 --> 00:39:49,508.9255657
is a great resource.
266
00:39:49,538.9252987 --> 00:39:51,278.9250698
obviously, it's been around for 30 years.
267
00:39:51,578.9252605 --> 00:39:54,18.9248409
We have lots and lots of trainings and articles.
268
00:39:54,18.9248409 --> 00:39:54,868.9252224
We have webinars.
269
00:39:55,108.9249935 --> 00:39:58,738.9241543
We have a series that we're doing now, which is freely, anybody can join at no cost.
270
00:39:58,738.9241543 --> 00:40:00,158.9242306
It's called Dive Into AI.
271
00:40:00,478.9258328 --> 00:40:03,178.9265957
And, you know, we show the latest AI tools.
272
00:40:03,178.9265957 --> 00:40:05,668.9263668
We talk about how they can be used in dispute resolution practice.
273
00:40:05,968.9256039 --> 00:40:08,168.9263668
We've got another meeting coming up first week of June.
274
00:40:08,448.9270535 --> 00:40:10,128.9254513
So if anybody wants to come to mediate.com.
275
00:40:10,128.9254513 --> 00:40:12,88.9283505
But we also have trainings at mediateuniversity.com.
276
00:40:12,88.9283505 --> 00:40:14,398.925909
We have a lot of writings.
277
00:40:14,578.9262142 --> 00:40:21,908.9234676
We're doing a conference on AI and mediation, at Harvard University in mid-June at ODR2026.org.
278
00:40:22,248.9228573 --> 00:40:24,608.9234676
so, you know, I, I feel like you're right.
279
00:40:25,208.9219418 --> 00:40:33,668.9248409
Our objectives as dispute resolvers have not changed, but our toolbox is changing all the time because we have all these powerful tools that are put into it.
280
00:40:33,668.9248409 --> 00:40:48,68.9256039
So same goals, new tools, but how do we get people fast and fair resolutions to their disputes? The same question that animated Francis Keller, 100 years ago, that animated Frank Sander here on my wall.
281
00:40:48,228.929266 --> 00:40:55,548.9320126
I always ask myself, WWFSD, what would Frank Sander do? you know, he didn't have access to artificial intelligence, but this is a powerful tool.
282
00:40:55,848.9350643 --> 00:41:08,338.9329281
How can we expand the reach of what we do with these tools? So if anybody wants to learn more about this, be part of the conversation as we reinvent the field and we welcome in these fourth parties, these AIs, to our mediation rooms, please come to mediate.com,
283
00:41:08,428.929266 --> 00:41:10,128.9338436
come to odr.info,
284
00:41:10,338.9329281 --> 00:41:12,548.9320126
the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution.
285
00:41:12,868.9317074 --> 00:41:13,878.9338436
come join the discussion.
286
00:41:14,258.9341488 --> 00:41:20,468.9378109
but I think, certainly there's some challenges, there's some risks in these tools, but I think the opportunities outweigh the risk.
287
00:41:20,468.9378109 --> 00:41:27,598.9350643
and we're gonna be able to leverage these tools to expand the reach of quality dispute resolution beyond anything our, forefathers and foremothers could have imagined.
288
00:41:27,598.9350643 --> 00:41:27,658.9326229
Right.
289
00:41:27,658.9326229 --> 00:41:28,458.9356747
I think this is such an exciting topic.
290
00:41:29,319.9344802 --> 00:42:18,555.9397278
Yeah and I I just wanna There have been on too I was talking great good leaps in AI in new friend John Land the last- Absolutely yeah on a podcast soon And John Land and I and another gal Renee Jackson are gonna be at the ODR AI Conference in June which you're so wonderfully hosting But I will say one thing that is just so poignant to me is you know technology and AI they're happening right And that gives mediation an opportunity to help grow and I think proliferate build awareness build access to the things that we really believe in And in order to really leverage that we have to embrace it We have to be part of the narrative We have to be using it We have to be figuring out how it can be applied in these areas not only for I think our profession but for the greater sense of right I think what we do is so important Mm-hmm.
291
00:42:18,611.9379063 --> 00:42:34,945.9387026
You and I know that so much And if we can insert and inject ourselves into this growth and what is happening then that means we will be a part of it in a more meaningful way and I hope that people really see that as an opportunity and not something to be fearful of Amen.
292
00:42:35,425.9387217 --> 00:42:36,5.9387646
Amen, Mo.
293
00:42:36,385.9385929 --> 00:42:38,515.9386597
you're, you are singing from my hymnal.
294
00:42:38,845.9382973 --> 00:42:40,915.9379921
as they say, from your mouth to God's ears.
295
00:42:40,915.9379921 --> 00:42:42,615.9382782
So I think that's great.
296
00:42:42,615.9382782 --> 00:42:45,775.9402237
you're doing at Levelheaded and, and, and running this podcast.
297
00:42:45,775.9402237 --> 00:42:46,795.9387741
It helps to get the word out.
298
00:42:46,795.9387741 --> 00:42:48,155.9393845
So, onward.
299
00:42:48,430.9403143 --> 00:42:54,990.9404955
Well thank you so much It has been a pleasure speaking with you today I couldn't be more excited about taking the mediate.com
300
00:42:54,990.9404955 --> 00:43:11,300.9401522
podcast and building off of all the wonderful conversations that you've had as Colin and I mentioned watch out or look out for the ODR AI Conference coming up here in June We'd love to see you all there and don't hesitate to reach out to Colin or myself if you have wonderful mediate.com
301
00:43:11,600.9412966 --> 00:43:16,955.9406385
ideas or podcast guests that you'd like to share Thank you so much Colin Thank you, Mo.
302
00:43:17,800.941386 --> 00:43:19,410.9414301
Hey, this is Morgan.
303
00:43:19,750.9412966 --> 00:43:23,860.9409533
I get so much feedback from it- that I've had to record it in Zoom.
304
00:43:24,630.941411 --> 00:43:24,980.9408388
Okay.
305
00:43:25,150.9411058 --> 00:43:26,630.9396944
do you wanna test it? Yeah.
306
00:43:26,630.9396944 --> 00:43:27,640.9399233
Why don't you...
307
00:43:27,840.9397326 --> 00:43:31,390.940877
I'm gonna send this to you and join, and then you can help me.
308
00:43:31,430.9398851 --> 00:43:33,640.940877
Yeah, I mean, that's a new tool for me.
309
00:43:34,20.9400377 --> 00:43:34,320.9411821
Okay.
310
00:43:34,320.9411821 --> 00:43:38,160.9413347
You could definitely use Zoom, or Colin may even have a better way to record it.
311
00:43:38,390.940877 --> 00:43:39,680.9398851
He uses Descript.
312
00:43:39,930.9398851 --> 00:43:40,700.9403429
Oh, he does? Yeah.
313
00:43:41,320.9411821 --> 00:43:44,980.9391222
So, I mean, he could record it too and give it to us if he has a setup that's good.
314
00:43:45,960.9424791 --> 00:43:49,480.9386644
Well, I'm kind of trying to make it look like I know what I'm doing.
315
00:43:49,800.9383593 --> 00:43:50,150.9406481
Sure.
316
00:43:50,440.9377489 --> 00:43:52,660.9397326
Okay, so where did you send that link? Okay.
317
00:43:53,380.9409533 --> 00:43:57,290.9415636
All right, I'm gonna kinda go downstairs so it doesn't sound really weird.
318
00:43:57,400.942174 --> 00:44:17,40.9421287
Let us know when you begin.
319
00:44:37,140.9421477 --> 00:44:38,610.9421763
Okay, hold on.
320
00:44:41,890.9421668 --> 00:44:42,60.9421239
I'm...
321
00:44:43,37.9421477 --> 00:44:45,97.9420905
Okay.
322
00:44:45,680.9422526 --> 00:44:48,970.9419761
See? There's a really bad feedback loop.
323
00:44:50,796.9421644 --> 00:44:52,820.942162
Hi, can you hear me I can hear you good.
324
00:44:54,186.9421549 --> 00:44:55,376.942162
Yeah, You sound fine to me.
325
00:44:55,630.9420834 --> 00:44:56,140.9421334
Okay.
326
00:44:57,186.9421048 --> 00:44:58,226.9420667
Hi, this is Rob.
327
00:44:58,226.9420667 --> 00:45:00,270.9419713
Hi, who are you? I'm Morgan Tregenza.
328
00:45:00,270.9419713 --> 00:45:04,786.9419999
You can't hear the feedback loop? Sounds totally clean and good on my end.
329
00:45:05,140.9420738 --> 00:45:05,650.9421239
Okay.
330
00:45:06,376.9421048 --> 00:45:09,476.9420094
Hey, hey, the-- we're gonna talk about a podcast today, about Level Headed.
331
00:45:09,476.9420094 --> 00:45:10,136.9418569
Hi, Colin.
332
00:45:10,166.9425435 --> 00:45:11,750.9421
You talk? Hi there.
333
00:45:11,890.9420857 --> 00:45:14,50.9419332
And I am Morgan.
334
00:45:14,50.9419332 --> 00:45:19,646.9419332
Can you hear any feedback? Can you hear any feedback? No.
335
00:45:19,790.9419117 --> 00:45:20,140.9419355
okay.
336
00:45:20,240.9419594 --> 00:45:20,490.9419594
Okay.
337
00:45:20,490.9419594 --> 00:45:26,26.9419403
Well, then I'll just use this, and I'm gonna stop the recording Okay.
00:00:00,670.0000166893 --> 00:00:05,629.9996376038
Good afternoon everyone Welcome to Common Ground this is the mediate.com
2
00:00:05,629.9996376038 --> 00:00:52,114.004322529
podcast where we talk about all things dispute resolution-oriented mostly mediation but arbitration peacemaking negotiation and really the human work of finding our way through conflict I am your new host Mo Tregenza and today is a really big day for the show because I'm joined by the person who's been your host for the past several years and one of the most consequential voices in modern dispute resolution who I lovingly refer to as the godfather of ODR Colin Rule Colin you're passing the baton to me today which is really wonderful and I'm so excited I couldn't be more thrilled to take over from your very big and wonderful shoes so I wanna just give you the floor for a second and then hop into our discussion Colin welcome Mo, thank you so much.
3
00:00:52,144.004293919 --> 00:00:59,984.003731251
I am delighted that you're gonna be taking this on, and, we've been discussing some of your plans and all the cool people you're gonna talk to, and I can't wait to listen to your episodes.
4
00:00:59,984.003731251 --> 00:01:01,114.002892017
running the mediate.com
5
00:01:01,114.002892017 --> 00:01:02,964.003273487
podcast has been just a joy.
6
00:01:03,134.003540516 --> 00:01:07,524.002930164
it's such a pleasure to talk to everyone in the field and learn about all the good work that's going on.
7
00:01:07,864.003082752 --> 00:01:08,944.003006458
But, you bring...
8
00:01:08,944.003006458 --> 00:01:14,904.00323534
And your passion for mediation and your enthusiasm for the practice is gonna bring a whole new layer to it.
9
00:01:14,904.00323534 --> 00:01:18,604.002090931
So thank you so much for taking this on, and I'm really delighted to be here with you today.
10
00:01:18,970.002753735 --> 00:02:10,63.99830484
thank you so much I really appreciate your kind words and I know how much fun you and I have talking about this topic because when we get on calls that are supposed to be thirty minutes I feel like they could go for hours So really thrilled to chat today when we started this conversation an idea that I threw out to you was you know are we as mediators leveraging our profession in the field in the way that we can and especially going forward And you have this fantastic history with mediation and you're working on some thinking which I've read recently but you said something recently which I think is so profound and I really wanna dive into this So to quote you We've gotten too comfortable being a part of the establishment So I wanna start there Tell me where that comes from Yeah, you know, it's funny, I did send some thoughts to you before this, and they've been sort of percolating in my mind.
11
00:02:10,483.99838114 --> 00:02:26,183.99799967
You know, I was first trained in the late '80s, by the American Friends Services Committee, which is the service committee of the Quakers in Philadelphia, and I went to a formerly Quaker school, and they had something called the Friends Suburban Project, where they went around and they trained people, in Philadelphia in conflict resolution.
12
00:02:26,183.99799967 --> 00:02:33,343.99784708
And I was lucky enough in the late '80s to get into one of those trainings, and it was such an exciting time in the dispute resolution field.
13
00:02:33,633.99876261 --> 00:02:38,513.99601603
I mean, there were so many organizations that were cropping up to promote dispute resolution.
14
00:02:38,513.99601603 --> 00:02:40,343.99784708
There was the National Institute for Dispute Resolution.
15
00:02:40,573.99738932 --> 00:02:42,823.99738932
There was the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution.
16
00:02:43,203.99769449 --> 00:02:44,213.99983072
I could go on and on.
17
00:02:44,313.99830484 --> 00:02:50,573.99698877
And there were maybe a dozen conferences a year Focused on promoting conflict resolution, promoting dispute resolution.
18
00:02:50,903.99710321 --> 00:02:53,23.99698877
and, there'd be thousands of people that went to these conferences.
19
00:02:53,23.99698877 --> 00:03:05,133.99712229
So me as a young person who first learned about mediation and got passionate about it, and then I became the head of the campus mediation program at my college at Haverford, or the co-chair, and then I wrote my thesis on it, and then I got a job at Nider.
20
00:03:05,133.99712229 --> 00:03:10,973.99841928
So I was, just swept into this movement, and, it just felt like we were coming together.
21
00:03:11,253.99719858 --> 00:03:13,693.99773264
People were saying, "There's a better way to do this."
22
00:03:13,933.99750376 --> 00:03:17,53.99834299
And I had wanted to be a peacemaker when I was in high school, but I didn't really...
23
00:03:17,223.995749 --> 00:03:20,13.99666452
what does that even mean to be a peacemaker? But then I got trained in mediation.
24
00:03:20,13.99666452 --> 00:03:22,713.99742746
I'm like, "Aha, this is the science of peacemaking.
25
00:03:23,53.99758005 --> 00:03:24,983.99407053
I am going to do this, what I want to do with my life."
26
00:03:25,293.99544382 --> 00:03:33,53.99758005
So to look back on those days and see how the culture was changing, how organizations were growing, how young people were being swept up.
27
00:03:33,163.99437571 --> 00:03:38,603.99681711
We even were doing peer mediation trainings, in elementary schools and middle schools and getting people at an early age.
28
00:03:38,823.99727488 --> 00:03:44,773.99376535
that was such a wonderful, heady time in the field, and I contrast it with kind of where we are now.
29
00:03:45,263.99544382 --> 00:03:53,763.99544382
And I find that a lot of the young people that I meet who are passionate about dispute resolution, you know, they're also dispirited by the current environment that we're in.
30
00:03:53,763.99544382 --> 00:04:15,313.99849558
It seems like a lot of the values of dispute resolution, you know, empathy and collaboration, expanding the pie, looking for win-win opportunities, a lot of that stuff is just being overwhelmed with this message, this broader message of bare knuckles negotiation, zero sum, you know, aggregate power and force the other side to do what you want them to do.
31
00:04:15,663.99788523 --> 00:04:27,83.99605417
I really feel that we need to bring back some of that sense of mission, that sense of the movement that I felt in the '80s, because the reality is we need dispute resolution more than ever, and people are hungry for it.
32
00:04:27,273.99849558 --> 00:04:37,903.99330759
I can just see that people feel in their soul they want to be able to talk to people that they disagree with and find a way to coexist and find a way to collaborate and work together.
33
00:04:38,153.99330759 --> 00:04:40,3.99483347
So that's kind of what I...
34
00:04:40,113.99544382 --> 00:04:44,933.99513865
You know, when you said to me too, we've become a little bit too complacent, I think that's true.
35
00:04:44,933.99513865 --> 00:04:51,203.99941111
I think, you know, back in the '80s and even in the '90s, there were this community mediation movement.
36
00:04:51,203.99941111 --> 00:04:52,453.99941111
People were volunteering.
37
00:04:52,723.98842478 --> 00:04:59,174.00063181
You know, students in colleges were petitioning the dean's office to start mediation programs, and now we have those.
38
00:04:59,263.9969697 --> 00:05:00,383.99208689
We did change the culture.
39
00:05:00,843.99880075 --> 00:05:03,293.995749
And now there is mandatory mediation in family courts.
40
00:05:03,293.995749 --> 00:05:10,793.98049021
There is, roommate mediation, but it's been absorbed into the housing office, or it's been absorbed into the courts, and now it's just another administrative step.
41
00:05:11,53.99025583 --> 00:05:19,563.98171091
And I think the novelty and the innovation and the values that undergird the work that we do has been lost a little bit because now we're just part of the way things work.
42
00:05:19,603.97499704 --> 00:05:28,98.97975588
And yeah, there are other innovations too that, I think about like the first time I zipped through a toll booth with an EZ Pass or, the first time I did my taxes online.
43
00:05:28,98.97975588 --> 00:05:29,628.97996569
The first time it was like, "Wow, this is cool.
44
00:05:29,628.97996569 --> 00:05:30,148.97946978
This is amazing.
45
00:05:30,148.97946978 --> 00:05:30,888.98019457
We should promote this."
46
00:05:31,68.97954607 --> 00:05:32,118.9797368
And now it's just normal.
47
00:05:32,158.97969866 --> 00:05:33,748.97985125
It's just the way things are.
48
00:05:33,968.98011827 --> 00:05:38,48.97908831
And the younger generation, it's just always been around, so it's not something they get particularly excited about.
49
00:05:38,378.97901201 --> 00:05:54,98.97756243
So this is-- I wanna inject some of that mission aspect Mm-hmm when I first joined the field, I think is a little bit of an antidote to this kind of complacency or the malaise that I kinda feel has settled over the field in the face of the current environment we're in.
50
00:05:54,318.97878313 --> 00:05:57,108.97588396
So I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but I just feel passionately about this.
51
00:05:57,108.97588396 --> 00:06:58,18.97651339
So yeah, tell me, what are your thoughts? No I love your rant and this is why I think it's so interesting especially as you know I'm like building a company and I agree with you in the way of like I think of mediation as almost like it like being like yoga and so when I was growing up my mom's friends down at the library did yoga for free and I knew like it was important and valuable but for some reason like it wasn't prolific like we know it today And there's a part of me that's like, Someone needs to like make yoga or mediation you know sexy or Hollywood like you know yoga was and now it's like everybody's willing to wear you know buy expensive you know yoga pants and yoga is a part of every exercise So I really agree with you in this sentiment of we've gotta make it exciting because it is and I totally agree When we talk about some of the language around mediation even within our team and our exploring like what do we call ourselves Is neutral a good word Empathy Right.
52
00:06:58,128.97641802 --> 00:07:03,462.97605562
Like being empathetic has turned into a bad thing and wanting That's right.
53
00:07:03,558.97367144 --> 00:07:37,377.96679544
And on the other side I couldn't agree more that one of my biggest fears is if mediation and dispute resolution proliferates in a way that we want it to does it become rote Does it become a part of the process, and then people don't take it seriously and that's what worries me So I love this thinking and I couldn't agree more Like moment of magic in mediation and having a meaningful discussion and conversation when you feel it when you see your parties feel it there's nothing like it right And it Absolutely.
54
00:07:38,33.96730089 --> 00:07:48,817.9666357
where you go from there I love the yoga metaphor, because I think I see people walking around in their Lululemon yoga pants all the time, and I think, "Are these people really doing yoga?" I mean, yoga is similar to mediation.
55
00:07:49,87.96709347 --> 00:07:57,317.96686459
It's existed since time immemorial, and when I go to India, you know, they yoga is a discipline, it's a lifestyle, it's connected to diet, it's connected...
56
00:07:57,567.96686459 --> 00:07:59,207.96816158
But it's a long-term practice.
57
00:07:59,237.96694088 --> 00:08:05,997.96716976
It's something that you put a lot of yourself into, and you get better, and better, and better over time, and I think that is similar to mediation.
58
00:08:06,57.96686459 --> 00:08:10,547.9666357
those of us who've really done it and who are passionate about it, we know the value that can come out of it.
59
00:08:10,877.96846676 --> 00:08:23,537.96831417
But if it just becomes, you know, stretching, and, you do it for five minutes, every other week when your back starts to get tight, are you really doing yoga, you know? Are you really embracing the full range? And I think the same is true with mediation.
60
00:08:23,837.96846676 --> 00:08:34,757.96968746
I actually have worked in some programs, some courts where, they absorbed an external mediation program, and they brought it inside the courts, and now it's staffed with court employees.
61
00:08:35,97.96984005 --> 00:08:47,407.96449947
And, you're working with divorcing couples, and it's kind of a little bit like the DMV, the couples come in, and they sit down with a court employee who has a clipboard, and they just go through, and they check boxes.
62
00:08:47,717.96968746 --> 00:08:49,647.96999264
And then they say, "Okay, well, that's your mediation.
63
00:08:49,647.96999264 --> 00:08:51,67.96816158
Now you can go in front of the judge."
64
00:08:51,97.96694088 --> 00:08:55,187.97090816
And I look at that and say, "Is that really mediation?" I mean, it's, it's, that's not really...
65
00:08:55,427.96877193 --> 00:09:11,167.9666357
When we first made th-these tools, a lot of it was animated by the practice, the discipline of active listening, and reflective practice and, confidentiality and all of these things that were core to the concept of what we were putting in place.
66
00:09:11,367.97121334 --> 00:09:14,103.96845245
Now I feel like it's just becoming a checkbox, Yeah.
67
00:09:14,657.96907711 --> 00:09:17,797.96846676
And, it, it, when you take the heart out of it, I'm not sure it works as well.
68
00:09:18,207.96449947 --> 00:09:30,667.9666357
So that's why I'm saying I, I was so inspired by these practitioners that saw this as a movement when I first joined the field, and I love what you guys are doing at Levelheaded because I think you are reinventing mediation for the younger generation.
69
00:09:30,667.9666357 --> 00:09:31,617.96358395
You're resuscitating it.
70
00:09:31,787.96938229 --> 00:09:37,417.96358395
This isn't just something that, in the '80s, people did, and now you can sort of follow this checklist, and you can do it.
71
00:09:37,707.97212887 --> 00:09:38,827.96724606
It's like, no, this is a whole...
72
00:09:38,857.96602535 --> 00:09:40,57.96297359
It's, as you say, it's like yoga.
73
00:09:40,57.96297359 --> 00:09:40,817.95748043
It's a discipline.
74
00:09:40,977.96114254 --> 00:09:49,57.96297359
What you get out of it is what you put into it, and we should inspire people with the values that undergird this work, as opposed to just say, "Okay, well, here's a checklist.
75
00:09:49,57.96297359 --> 00:09:51,567.97273922
Go do this," and, then you've started your mediation program.
76
00:09:51,768.97333527 --> 00:11:15,448.97102261
Yeah No I I totally I love the idea of the cultural shift and I know this is bold but I I really do have a mission to disrupt the legal system because not not in a nefarious or like evil way My grandfather was a judge and I have a lot of respect for what the legal system means but because I truly know that there is a better way And I think when people experience that like you said it becomes something that you want to be disciplined about It's funny because I just did I worked with the first mediation practicum at CU Boulder So their law school did a class and they worked with Levelheaded in a court that we're working with here and then they worked with another court and I had no idea that they were working together but you're right They that the other court had brought in mediation into the courthouse They now have court administrators watching over the mediation and it is a really stark difference of what is the mediation results in that courtroom where it's been absorbed and really Right and qui a totally different process versus what we do and I think really honoring mediation Absolutely.
77
00:11:15,449.97434139 --> 00:11:33,258.97019768
more about a discipline and realizing how much the thought and the concept of mediation is more than just the practice right It is like it's almost like a cultural shift that needs to happen And when you talk about, your grandfather who was a judge, you might know this, I'm a descendant of Oliver Wendell Holmes, actually, the Supreme Court justice.
78
00:11:33,528.9698925 --> 00:11:34,548.96939659
I'm not a lawyer.
79
00:11:34,668.97023582 --> 00:11:39,178.97046471
My background's in public policy and dispute resolution, but I've read a lot of Holmes because of the connection.
80
00:11:39,608.97076988 --> 00:11:41,828.97008324
And, he talks a lot about the beauty of the law.
81
00:11:41,828.97008324 --> 00:11:51,138.96954918
This is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, that we built this system and we have this evolving series of rules and guidelines that can help us build peace within society.
82
00:11:51,438.97069359 --> 00:11:57,628.97122765
I think that we as mediators deeply respect that, and we often talk about how mediation lives in the shadow of the law.
83
00:11:57,998.97015953 --> 00:11:59,538.97107506
But there's also, I...
84
00:11:59,578.96817589 --> 00:12:05,458.969244
There was a book called The Bramble Bush, which was intended for, you know, first-year law students back in the 1920s.
85
00:12:05,868.96909142 --> 00:12:13,528.96512413
And, the author, Llewellyn, he says, "What is the law really about? Fundamentally, the law is about preventing and resolving disputes."
86
00:12:13,528.96512413 --> 00:12:15,208.96542931
That's why the law exists.
87
00:12:15,358.96695518 --> 00:12:20,258.96848106
It's a very complicated dispute resolution process, but it's only one of many processes.
88
00:12:20,298.96558189 --> 00:12:26,78.96436119
And, you know, many of us have the Abraham Lincoln quote on our walls, you know, as mediators, "Discourage litigation," you know.
89
00:12:26,128.96436119 --> 00:12:28,398.96100426
help your neighbors understand that they can work these things out.
90
00:12:28,688.95734215 --> 00:12:47,858.96314049
I think, you know, I was-- When I came into the field, it was part of this big upswing of dispute resolution, and I just got caught up in it, and I was so proud of all the changes that were happening in society, and that's what makes me sad to see that, you know, hey, I feel like the values that undergird dispute resolution are kind of falling out of favor.
91
00:12:48,198.96253014 --> 00:12:55,238.96344566
And when I, when I get, you know, anxious about current events, I often look to history because it contextualizes our experience.
92
00:12:55,618.96222019 --> 00:13:05,338.96260643
And then I realized, you know, this has been a struggle since time immemorial to fight for these values of peacemaking and empathy and connection and dialogue.
93
00:13:05,768.96195793 --> 00:13:09,768.96195793
And we're celebrating at the American Arbitration Association, we're celebrating our 100th anniversary.
94
00:13:10,258.96172905 --> 00:13:16,658.96134758
And the founder of AAA, Francis Keller, when she first put together the organization, she was part of this movement too.
95
00:13:16,658.96134758 --> 00:13:20,668.96157646
You can read her writings, and it sounds just like the writings from the 1980s.
96
00:13:20,948.96226311 --> 00:13:23,148.96302605
And it was this idea of, we can work this out.
97
00:13:23,148.96302605 --> 00:13:24,578.96142387
We can collaborate with each other.
98
00:13:24,778.96218681 --> 00:13:29,818.96310234
We can resolve problems in a smarter way that doesn't require the scorched earth techniques.
99
00:13:29,988.96127129 --> 00:13:30,918.96157646
And it wasn't just her.
100
00:13:31,98.96188164 --> 00:13:32,398.9611187
It was Mary Parker Follett.
101
00:13:32,398.9611187 --> 00:13:33,678.96371269
It was Jane Addams.
102
00:13:33,678.96371269 --> 00:13:39,228.96676445
There was a whole movement in the '20s and '30s to do this, and, I realize it stretches even before them.
103
00:13:39,478.96676445 --> 00:13:41,518.96310234
So this is a constant fight.
104
00:13:41,748.96264458 --> 00:13:51,48.96417046
There is always the temptation to slide into, prejudice and, judgment and otherism and in-group versus out-group.
105
00:13:51,274.96267319 --> 00:13:54,888.96432304
嗯 This is just part of human psychology, and it has been around time immemorial.
106
00:13:55,178.96523857 --> 00:13:58,608.96172905
But that's why it's so important that we keep fighting this fight.
107
00:13:58,818.96844292 --> 00:14:26,478.959898
And even in a time where it doesn't feel like our values are in ascendance, maybe they're a little bit in retreat, we have to preserve this flame of the work that we do because there's gonna come a time when the pendulum swings back the other way, and we have to use that flame and go and light all the lanterns again and remind people how coexistence can operate and how we can resolve disputes in a peaceful way that builds relationships, builds trust, builds empathy and connection, as opposed to the division that I think we see all around us these days.
108
00:14:26,709.96110439 --> 00:15:36,918.95440483
Yeah I absolutely agree and I also think maybe we're at the cusp of sort of a seismic shift again much like when you were developing your love for mediation There were political and outside things happening that really bore into that sort of cultural mindset and shift and I almost feel like we're getting there right And this need to say Hey you know we are all humans and we can sit down at the same table is becoming more put in the spotlight And I This just made me think of a few years ago there was this really compelling I think it was on Colorado CPR Colorado Public Radio it may have been national But they went around the country and identified different individuals who had really opposite viewpoints of controversial issues So abortion diversity in school Gun issues and they brought people with very different ends of the spectrum to the same table and we were involved with it because mediation right So they did this tour and brought people to the same room and had these open dialogues and it was absolutely magical what came out of it Absolutely.
109
00:15:36,949.95657921 --> 00:16:01,18.95504379
they could share their differences of opinion but they realized their humanity in one another and what they came out of it from that was a totally different sense of how they saw the world And I think that right now we're so in need of that mindset shift and that's where the practice of mediation and dispute resolution really demonstrates that Well, I think that there are conflict resolvers, and I think that there are conflict exacerbators.
110
00:16:01,368.95494843 --> 00:16:07,148.95515823
And, you know, Bernie Mayer has written very persuasively about this in his many books about how we are conflict specialists.
111
00:16:07,148.95515823 --> 00:16:09,828.95546341
We're not just about resolve everything, resolve everything.
112
00:16:10,28.95527267 --> 00:16:14,108.95424271
Sometimes there are times when you do have to escalate a conflict in order to make progress.
113
00:16:14,468.95485306 --> 00:16:19,628.95470047
And, you know, again, I am not averse to fighting, you know? Like getting out in the streets and making your...
114
00:16:19,668.955616 --> 00:16:24,328.95737076
As long as you follow the rules, you know? Like, look, we have an obligation to speak up for what we believe.
115
00:16:24,708.95653152 --> 00:16:29,598.95782852
But yes, dialogue is possible even in these most divisive of civil issues.
116
00:16:29,708.95752335 --> 00:16:36,408.95447159
I grew up in Texas, and I now live in California, and many of my friends from the two places, they see the world in very different ways.
117
00:16:36,678.95492935 --> 00:16:46,68.954319
But I love them equally, and I think this idea that we can coexist, our self-interest, our worldviews may contradict, but we can disagree without being disagreeable.
118
00:16:46,108.9552345 --> 00:16:56,908.9561501
I think, right now there's just a sense that that's, "Oh, that's weakness," you know? That's, you just don't really care enough about your beliefs that you're not willing to go out and fight the other side about them.
119
00:16:56,948.9494362 --> 00:16:58,478.9558449
And I don't think that's what this is at all.
120
00:16:58,648.9540138 --> 00:17:12,658.9476051
I think we all hunger for our ability to coexist even when we disagree, and it's not that we have to take these issues that are most polarizing and push them to the front of the conversation and use it to delegitimi- de- de- delegitimize the viewpoints of the other side.
121
00:17:12,878.9497414 --> 00:17:16,628.9451637
I sense that hunger and I'm mainly talking about the United States.
122
00:17:16,628.9451637 --> 00:17:52,298.9418068
having traveled to other countries, many other countries are in a very different head space than the US, and I think they look at what's going on in the United States with dismay, saying, "Wow, how did this happen?" But I do think that, especially with all of the disruption being introduced by technological change, I think it's been an opportunity for the conflict exacerbators to get an upper hand, and now it's time for the conflict resolvers to push back because that's really the way that this works, is we learn how to live together and even disagree, but, learn to coexist and understand what we share in common exceeds the things that we disagree about.
123
00:17:52,519.9421048 --> 00:18:49,589.9416375
our common humanity is so beautiful and I want to touch on this because I think it's so important and something good for our listeners I have also just repeatedly been sort of asked like Why the United States And when I go abroad to different conferences it is just almost the difference of the appetite for mediation and dispute resolution and how people embrace it in other cultures almost makes the US look like we're in the Dark Ages and I think the current political narrative it really exacerbates that And I think you know this that's why this moment for sort of this seismic shift is so so important Right Absolutely.
124
00:18:50,575.9436212 --> 00:19:06,619.9445367
Most of those people don't have lawyers and it really affects people and we really don't have a good way to to deal with that What what are your thoughts on that and how dispute resolution comes in I mean, the irony is dispute resolution is more needed now than ever.
125
00:19:06,869.9442506 --> 00:19:12,29.9438119
I think back to my heroes from the '80s, they didn't have all the tools that we have at our disposal.
126
00:19:12,239.94385 --> 00:19:15,29.9438119
They didn't have AI, they didn't have mobile phones, they didn't have Zoom.
127
00:19:15,399.9438882 --> 00:19:25,309.9437356
the constraints of geography were way more of a burden on their ability to try and expand access to dispute resolution services than we're freed now that we have these tools in our toolbox.
128
00:19:25,619.9432015 --> 00:19:50,449.9427438
So the goals that they had of ex- of fast and fair resolutions for all, they did the best they could in their era, but now we can utilize these tools, and that's why I'm excited about online dispute resolution as well, because, my friend Richard Susskind, who's the chief IT advisor to the Lord Chief Justice in the UK, he's written in many of his books about 50% of people on Earth don't have meaningful access to a justice system, to...
129
00:19:50,449.9427438 --> 00:19:57,659.9418283
And he calls, they're kind of like the unjusticed, right? Mm-hmm Peace Corps in rural Africa, in Eritrea, and I saw that.
130
00:19:57,789.9428964 --> 00:20:04,209.94488
There was not a meaningful redress system, a justice system was available to most of my neighbors in Dekemhare in Eritrea.
131
00:20:04,639.9451852 --> 00:20:15,84.9457717
But how can we solve that problem? You know, I think the tools that we had before, it just was prohibitively complicated to try and figure out how do we expand- meaningful redress around the world.
132
00:20:15,334.9457717 --> 00:20:29,524.9452806
Well, if dispute resolution is a service, it's not a place, and we can deliver it through technology, well, then suddenly we have a way to reach that other 50% of people on the planet that don't have a way to get a fair resolution to a problem when they encounter it.
133
00:20:29,904.9463487 --> 00:20:39,854.9466538
And I think y- you know, the irony of our moment is that while the values of dispute resolution seem to be kind of under pressure, the need for dispute resolution is greater than ever before.
134
00:20:39,854.9466538 --> 00:20:48,64.9476457
And when you talk about the crisis of self-represented pro se litigants, you know, 80% of civil cases in the United States have one party that's unrepresented.
135
00:20:48,444.9448991 --> 00:20:50,364.9468827
You know, we need to think outside the box.
136
00:20:50,364.9468827 --> 00:20:55,934.9465775
We need to think in creative ways, and that was the reason why we called the field ADR initially, 'cause it was an alternative.
137
00:20:55,934.9465775 --> 00:20:58,294.9471879
It was an alternative to what? It was an alternative to the courts.
138
00:20:58,834.9442887 --> 00:21:02,954.9470353
and the other thing is, you know, dispute resolution has been around s- as long as humanity has been around.
139
00:21:03,4.9470353 --> 00:21:12,744.9448991
I've got, images on my computer of disputes from ancient Mesopotamia, where people are arguing about, you know, the quality of the copper ingots, that were sold from one merchant to another.
140
00:21:12,984.9458146 --> 00:21:22,324.9467301
and, you know, there's arbitration awards in ancient Rome and in England at the time of the Magna Carta and even in-- There's an arbitration clause in George Washington's will.
141
00:21:22,584.9488664 --> 00:21:23,944.9494767
So none of this is new.
142
00:21:24,234.9503922 --> 00:21:26,894.9510026
That's what I'm saying, is sometimes we can be a little...
143
00:21:26,894.9510026 --> 00:21:28,154.9531388
We have a recency bias.
144
00:21:28,424.9497819 --> 00:21:31,153.9497461
got some visitors Excuse the interrupt I got a dog here too.
145
00:21:31,443.949708 --> 00:21:31,893.9495173
But, I, I...
146
00:21:31,893.9495173 --> 00:21:35,873.9495363
My point is, this has been going on as long as there have been people.
147
00:21:35,913.9494982 --> 00:21:42,3.9498415
Our self-interests, overlap, and they, they can come into conflict, and we have to figure out how to work it out.
148
00:21:42,33.9495745 --> 00:21:46,463.948926
And every society has figured out how to provide fast and fair resolutions.
149
00:21:46,723.9491549 --> 00:22:10,83.9512148
And that's why we in the dispute resolution field, we have to maintain that push, maintain that activism, speak out, train new people, expose people to the values of the field, share what we've learned in terms of our practices with, new practitioners, because that's the only way that we can continue, you know, to ensure that these values are active, vital, and alive in our society.
150
00:22:11,34.9507642 --> 00:22:23,283.9504232
Yeah I mean I always tell people Look like problems are a part of life Much like taxes nobody's going to avoid them And I always go back to the history of mediation and to your point like Right.
151
00:22:23,394.9505281 --> 00:22:32,463.9495554
how old it is because the power of people being able to resolve conflicts through conversation is as old as language itself probably Exactly.
152
00:22:32,604.9488497 --> 00:23:04,58.947052
basic and useful tool and I think its ability to turn to turn people's cultures and mindset into something that really sinks into the rest of how you operate is just so so important And again problems are a part of life and if you have a better mindset and way to think of and address them not only do you and I both know that you will have a more durable resolution you will have a higher satisfactory of your dispute resolution experience all the things that follow along with that are just so so imperative For sure.
153
00:23:04,198.9470377 --> 00:23:06,978.9472475
I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I love the framing of Levelheaded.
154
00:23:07,664.9471021 --> 00:23:10,248.9470377
Yeah it's reinventing it for a younger generation.
155
00:23:10,248.9470377 --> 00:23:15,688.9475718
It's packaging it in a way it doesn't feel like some dusty training book, you know, from decades ago.
156
00:23:15,718.9473047 --> 00:23:17,68.9476862
It's like, no, this is vital.
157
00:23:17,68.9476862 --> 00:23:17,698.9478006
This is real.
158
00:23:17,698.9478006 --> 00:23:20,718.9473047
This is a part of the life that you experience every day.
159
00:23:21,228.9475336 --> 00:23:22,718.9473047
Bring this in to your life.
160
00:23:22,748.9479914 --> 00:23:24,38.9469996
And it's a discipline, as you say.
161
00:23:24,38.9469996 --> 00:23:25,628.9471521
I think mediation is one of those things.
162
00:23:25,858.9478388 --> 00:23:31,168.9480677
it's equal part science and, art, and I think you get out of it what you put into it.
163
00:23:31,168.9480677 --> 00:23:37,878.9471521
So i- it's not just expressing, "Okay, hey, we have a mediation program, and it's down here, and you click this button, and you can file a case."
164
00:23:38,78.9479151 --> 00:23:38,778.948678
It's more than that.
165
00:23:38,778.948678 --> 00:23:39,898.9476099
It's a whole value system.
166
00:23:39,898.9476099 --> 00:23:51,548.9491358
It's a whole paradigm, and I think that's what we as a field need to reclaim and not feel like, "Well, you know, we did get these things integrated into the establishment, so we're done."
167
00:23:51,908.9497461 --> 00:23:55,398.9476099
It's like, no, we have to continue to fight and continue to advance on all fronts.
168
00:23:55,634.9482036 --> 00:24:18,328.9482512
I think that's what's really exciting about the younger generations and talked about mediation being taught in schools We're seeing it more at universities here and there's such an appetite for it younger people and even children's ability to engage with meaningful dispute resolution is so compelling and they have that capacity and desire almost more than adults Yeah.
169
00:24:18,328.9482512 --> 00:24:22,878.948442
You know, my first entree, as I said, I ran the campus mediation program, and I wrote a thesis on it.
170
00:24:23,278.9487281 --> 00:24:35,478.9487281
but I got involved with this organization, the National Association for Mediation in Education, and it was interesting 'cause I was interested in the higher ed side, but lots of the people who ran NAME, were elementary school teachers, middle school teachers.
171
00:24:35,918.9492621 --> 00:24:45,78.9491096
And I think it was in the '70s that the community boards, which is one of the first conflict resolution organizations that worked with kids, came up and created training materials to teach this in schools.
172
00:24:45,428.949491 --> 00:24:58,48.9484229
And they, they had studies, there's actually some really interesting videos about this, where they would train elementary school kids to, you know, in basic peacemaking skills, and then they would hand out every recess, one kid would get the mediator shirt.
173
00:24:58,344.9478698 --> 00:25:05,318.9488807
Oh T-shirt, and their job during recess was to go around and, you know, look for conflicts and see if they could play a role.
174
00:25:05,688.9478126 --> 00:25:13,488.9470496
And it, the, the videos are so compelling to see students who really took this seriously and wanted to be a force for good and wanted to engage.
175
00:25:13,858.946897 --> 00:25:19,368.9490333
and then there was also Children's Creative Response to Conflict, which was a similar organization that worked with elementary school kids.
176
00:25:19,638.9456763 --> 00:25:25,773.9452567
And then when I was at the National Institute for Dispute Resolution, we had something called CRENET Which was the Conflict Resolution and Education Network.
177
00:25:26,123.9453998 --> 00:25:31,703.9455619
So even Clara Fowler, who's on my team, I mean, she's got a PhD in this and she edits mediate.com,
178
00:25:31,923.9458289 --> 00:25:34,663.9456
she was first trained as a peer mediator in school.
179
00:25:35,54.9453783 --> 00:25:35,734.9453855
Oh.
180
00:25:36,193.945333 --> 00:25:46,843.9459052
out here in California at their public elementary school, they had something called the Peacebuilders Pledge, and every day the kids would stand up, say the Pledge of Allegiance, and then they would recite the Peacebuilders Pledge, which was on every wall.
181
00:25:47,153.9453712 --> 00:26:06,273.9375129
So on the one hand, it's exciting that these things happened and that they were built in to our culture, but if it just becomes something that you say and you don't really think about it and you're not doing these trainings and people aren't getting inspired, they don't understand the value to themselves in learning these skills and bringing it into their lives, then we're losing something.
182
00:26:06,273.9375129 --> 00:26:14,743.9387336
We're losing a spark that I think made this uniquely effective because it's, important to have that passion to animate your practice.
183
00:26:15,143.9402595 --> 00:26:23,503.9408698
And if you just get somebody says, "Hey, do you wanna do this job you don't know anything about? You've not been trained, you've not read anything about it," it can feel a little administrative, and it loses some of the magic.
184
00:26:23,833.9427009 --> 00:26:29,323.9405646
So, that's what I love about the work that we do, Mo, is we get to try and reinject some of that magic.
185
00:26:29,323.9405646 --> 00:26:35,253.9408698
And I'm inspired by the leaders in the '80s whose shoulders I stood upon when I was building my practice.
186
00:26:35,453.9454474 --> 00:26:45,213.9323249
And now I wanna say to people, "Climb on my back," you know? let me show you because I remember how vital this practice can be and we need to inspire the next generation the same way that I was inspired.
187
00:26:45,879.9338365 --> 00:27:19,283.9353766
Oh yeah Well I'm right there climbing on your back screaming from the rooftops people are climbing on your backs too, I think that it's so interesting I love I think being a parent almost like invites your capacity to think more critically about disputes and like your love and like simplicity for a child And I think of when I was in elementary school it wasn't for my class but another one of the teachers was getting married and they asked the class to come up with what love was and what marriage was And it was like kindergartners or you know very young Sure.
188
00:27:19,699.9364781 --> 00:28:38,498.9386048
their recommendations were so pure and innocent and lovely and true right It was like rub their feet or you know give them a hug or draw them pictures that they like and it seemed so rudimentary but was so true And the book you know was these little scribbling drawings of this class but it kind of blew up as like oh yeah this is this is what love and marriage is about And I think in so many ways like mediation really has that opportunity too for people to realize like you know problems are a part of life and yet you absolutely inherently as a human have the capacity to solve them given just a little bit of empowerment and love what you say because it's really exciting I think when people meet me for a mediation they're almost like blown away that I come in there and I'm like Yes we get to do this And you're in this moment of conflict but like I can't wait to talk about this and I can't wait to help you get through it and see that there is another side that you know surprising to you is actually gonna feel really different And I think sharing in that fervor and that excitement is one of my absolute favorite things about this podcast really but also what I get to share with people is like it it this can be a really good thing And I don't wanna minimize disputes right Sometimes they are very heavy and very difficult For sure.
189
00:28:38,634.9373937 --> 00:28:57,548.9385381
but I think so much of what we do in life is about your mindset and how you think you're gonna tackle it And it can be serious right But I think we can inject so much goodness into it if we look at it in a different framework Well, I think one of your greatest superpowers is your enthusiasm and your excitement about the field.
190
00:28:57,598.9387288 --> 00:29:04,668.9384236
And, you know, people don't invite us into the negotiation room with them because, you know, we have the experts, we have all the answers.
191
00:29:04,674.9386287 --> 00:29:08,608.9393773
Mm-hmm they bring us in because, we can help them get disputes resolved.
192
00:29:08,638.940064 --> 00:29:14,778.9375463
And I don't like the word neutral because it just makes you seem like you're just completely, you don't have any opinions about anything.
193
00:29:14,778.9375463 --> 00:29:15,828.9386907
You're totally removed.
194
00:29:15,828.9386907 --> 00:29:17,158.9386144
You're unemotional.
195
00:29:17,438.9380803 --> 00:29:25,718.9368596
I love that Ken Cloke talks about omnipartiality, right? Where I am an advocate for everybody in this room, and I don't have a bias towards party A or party B.
196
00:29:25,718.9368596 --> 00:29:30,278.9382329
I do have a bias towards resolution, and I think there is a, there's an element of faith to that.
197
00:29:30,278.9382329 --> 00:29:31,818.9391484
There's an, an element of passion.
198
00:29:32,48.9386907 --> 00:29:34,578.93747
You have to be interested in people to do this work.
199
00:29:34,968.9368596 --> 00:29:37,748.9394536
And I love when you talk about, families and young people.
200
00:29:37,778.9382329 --> 00:29:48,788.9396062
I think, you know, if you see the world as a hostile place with a lot of people that are coming to take advantage of you and you're just a solo actor, well then the temptation is fight, fight, fight, and push everybody back.
201
00:29:49,88.9388433 --> 00:30:01,38.9434209
But once you get into a family, once you get into a community, once you get into a workplace, once you get into, you know, a church or a temple or a mosque, you start to see, well, wait a minute, there are opportunities for us to work together.
202
00:30:01,328.9431157 --> 00:30:05,238.9391484
and really, I mean, at least for me, the thing that animates me is love.
203
00:30:05,268.9379277 --> 00:30:19,93.943974
And so I think we need to remember that love is at the heart of so much of what we do, and I think communicating that and creating that environment Makes people want to invite you into the room because mediators hold the calm, mediators hold the possibility of a solution.
204
00:30:19,543.9442601 --> 00:30:22,463.9433827
And you have to believe that in order for the parties to believe that.
205
00:30:22,513.9433827 --> 00:30:24,163.9430013
so that's what I love about the work that I do.
206
00:30:24,163.9430013 --> 00:30:26,213.943192
It's why I feel this kinship with mediators.
207
00:30:26,243.942925 --> 00:30:30,893.9434972
I love hanging around mediators 'cause we all have this faith that we can find solutions.
208
00:30:31,173.9434209 --> 00:30:32,103.9437261
we can work it out.
209
00:30:32,383.9444127 --> 00:30:33,543.9442601
That's the way that I feel.
210
00:30:33,543.9442601 --> 00:30:37,333.9402165
So that's the energy that you bring into the room, Mo, and that's why you're so good at what you do.
211
00:30:37,633.941361 --> 00:30:37,833.9402165
Yeah.
212
00:30:37,974.9410605 --> 00:31:04,343.9397683
Thank you I really think that what you just said too is is really important and it's something that I remember when I first started you know like this concept of neutrality was so difficult right And also because like we hear we're biased and I hear people often talk about you know resolution rates You can't talk about that because then you're not biased and there was something someone else said to me I think it was last week as you know I went to the Harvard Advanced Mediation course Right.
213
00:31:04,369.9400306 --> 00:31:47,763.938581
one of the professors said something so profound about you know a mediator's desire or need to solve the problem And I think what he said and I won't quote anyone here because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong was something along the lines of like of course we want people to get to a resolution and that means that you know we care about it and you you can't be neutral And I think that's what's really interesting about a lot of mediation terms right We put ourselves in the neutral level or you know we can't be too resolution-oriented But at the end of the day what our mission is at the end to have these meaningful dialogues is really that and I love that you brought this up Like we're we're not neutral What did you say Omni Omnipartial.
214
00:31:47,763.938581 --> 00:31:55,878.9388766
It's not my idea, that's Ken Cloke's idea, but I love that idea because it's like I'm not neutral Yeah am biased towards resolution.
215
00:31:55,878.9388766 --> 00:32:01,388.9389148
you want me here because I have that bias, Yes I do believe that we can find a zone of agreement.
216
00:32:01,388.9389148 --> 00:32:02,388.9389148
We can put together.
217
00:32:02,668.9386477 --> 00:32:05,88.938724
And even if the parties don't believe it, I believe it.
218
00:32:05,88.938724 --> 00:32:09,638.9379611
So, and that's the value that we bring as third parties, as mediators in these negotiations.
219
00:32:09,978.9381137 --> 00:32:27,248.9385715
And, you know, again, there's so many styles of mediation, right? Everything from evaluative, kind of table-banging, you know, you think about mediation with a gavel that some ex-judges do, all the way to transformative, which is very relationship-focused, and counseling, and nurturing, and talking about the context outside of the individual dispute.
220
00:32:27,528.9373508 --> 00:32:41,808.9429965
I myself am a facilitative mediator, but, I feel like all of those elements are in the work that we do, and everybody needs to find their spot in the field where they feel like they can provide value, and it syncs with their, unique kind of emotional intelligence and their skills.
221
00:32:42,158.9414706 --> 00:33:07,838.9379611
So again, I just have gotten so much out of this field, and I don't want to sound like an evangelist, like saying, "Well, everybody's gotta take the medicine and sign up," you know? but I really do feel when I look around, at so much dismay and so many people who are just so depressed about where we are, and I'm like, "Look, I feel like I know a way back," you know? and eventually the pendulum is gonna swing back and hopefully all the things that we care about in the dispute resolution field, will come to the fore.
222
00:33:08,259.9361372 --> 00:34:03,788.9375033
Yeah So we've been talking a lot about something that I can't help but wanna ask you You know we've become too built into the establishment and there's something so like I think fundamentally organic and real about mediation that like there's this tension of like you can't be in the establishment because of like the true humanity of it And so my question to you is and this is honestly something I struggle with is I really feel like as a profession we sort of do ourselves a disfavor by not having more I oh I don't like this word it's a big word but like regulation and framework about what we are and how we practice and what we do But by the nature of doing that right we kind of become like pro-establishment so there's tension there me what you think about that Yeah, you know, th- this is something that I've wrestled with over the course of my career.
223
00:34:04,168.9376178 --> 00:34:09,748.9380755
You know, I, I, you know, when I first learned about mediation, I'm like, "This is amazing," you know? "I have a hammer and everything is a nail."
224
00:34:10,18.938221 --> 00:34:14,338.9382138
and I wrote my thesis on it, and my advisor at Bryn Mawr, he was an anthropologist.
225
00:34:14,668.9381375 --> 00:34:17,658.9379087
And he said, "Okay, I can see you're very enthusiastic about this.
226
00:34:17,938.9376416 --> 00:34:23,878.9374127
Why don't you go read some of the critics of dispute resolution?" and I read Loren Nader, who was Ralph Nader's sister.
227
00:34:23,908.9380994 --> 00:34:32,478.9351239
She was an anthropologist at Berkeley, and she was critical of dispute resolution in some nuanced ways, and there were some other articles from the, procedural side.
228
00:34:32,478.9351239 --> 00:34:44,688.9368787
But one of the things that Loren Nader talked about is dispute resolution, it personalizes disputes, if we have a systemic issue that's generating conflict, it's generating injustice, if you personalize it down to two people...
229
00:34:44,688.9368787 --> 00:34:53,548.9336743
Think about, like, if you're on a college campus and there's a dispute between a white student and a Black student in a dorm, and there may be a racial element to that dispute.
230
00:34:53,948.9352002 --> 00:35:06,728.9352002
Well, the housing office can start a mediation program and bring in those two students, and they can sit down with a mediator, and they can work it out between the two of them and come up with an agreement that, you know, resolves the issue and maybe reestablishes some of the trust between them.
231
00:35:07,8.9339795 --> 00:35:24,358.9362683
But what about the whole environments on their hall that they were in or the dorm that they were in or the campus writ large? That mediation, by taking it into a confidential process and saying, "This is about these two people," you're missing the forest for the trees, because there are broader issues that may create more disputes over time that are being unaddressed.
232
00:35:24,708.9347425 --> 00:35:35,818.9210095
So that still resonates with me a little bit, you know? Yes Bernie Mayer, m- my good friend Bernie Mayer I mentioned before, and Jackie Funk Guzman, they came up with this, they wrote a, an amazing book called "The Neutrality Trap."
233
00:35:36,308.9188733 --> 00:35:39,788.9222302
And they were talking about, again, as we're not conflict resolvers.
234
00:35:39,788.9222302 --> 00:35:44,348.9197888
It's not like every conflict needs to be resolved, and there's not some ideal state where we have no conflict.
235
00:35:44,688.9237561 --> 00:35:46,898.9228406
Conflict is an inevitable part of the human condition.
236
00:35:47,298.9243665 --> 00:35:50,338.925282
But, you know, there is a time when it's appropriate to protest.
237
00:35:50,338.925282 --> 00:36:03,988.9268079
It's a t- there's a time when it's appropriate to escalate a dispute because there's a systemic change that needs to happen, and the only way that that systemic change can be triggered is if the contradiction is illuminated, and sometimes protest is a way to do that.
238
00:36:04,168.9271131 --> 00:36:14,398.9228406
Now, they also make the point that dispute resolution is intimately tied to protest, because every protest, to be effective, is gonna end in a negotiation at some point to establish the change.
239
00:36:15,358.9295735 --> 00:36:28,548.9298024
So this isn't about we all just become angels, and we erase all the need, and we achieve some sort of zen state where, all of our individual needs are washed away, and we just can, neutrally examine every issue and try and figure out how to restore the balance.
240
00:36:28,818.9294972 --> 00:36:30,228.9293447
I think you can be passionate.
241
00:36:30,378.9289632 --> 00:36:40,598.9280477
You can go in, have a perspective, fight for what you think is right, but also maintain the ability to talk with the other side, walk a mile in the other person's shoes, look at the situation through their eyes.
242
00:36:40,798.9288106 --> 00:36:42,558.9290395
It doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.
243
00:36:42,558.9290395 --> 00:36:47,258.9278951
It doesn't mean that everything that we're passionate about, we have to throw out in order to achieve peace.
244
00:36:47,258.9278951 --> 00:36:48,178.9298787
No, that's not the case.
245
00:36:48,448.9303365 --> 00:37:02,698.9303365
We can find our common humanity, our common shared underlying interests, and we can build a connection on the basis of that, and then still, that's fine, live in a world where we disagree about some of the individual positions that we may have.
246
00:37:03,38.9304891 --> 00:37:20,558.9271321
So again, if there's any faith that I have as a mediator, is that our common connection to each other outweighs our narrow territorial positions, and we shouldn't focus on these individual difficult issues where we might strongly disagree to the exclusion of that deeper connection we share.
247
00:37:20,824.9286532 --> 00:37:55,388.9278927
Yeah I think your point is really great too because I see the tension there but it's also like your ability to see common ground or that common connection with someone on an individual capacity also translate into the importance of it in a greater sense right And how that means when we're operating you know as a society as a culture as we're thinking of even you know smaller communities or a college campus and that is really telling of the impact of that right And sometimes you need to see that for yourself to see the significance of that for the greater purpose Yeah, and there's a lot of...
248
00:37:55,418.9281025 --> 00:38:07,8.9284935
I learned my dispute resolution graduate work was with social psychologists, so they spent a lot of time talking about fundamental attribution error and, you know, just cognitive weaknesses that humans have.
249
00:38:07,38.9282265 --> 00:38:13,698.9288368
And there's even a basis in neuroscience for why we can get caught in some of these traps that repeat conflict over and over again.
250
00:38:13,738.927845 --> 00:38:17,988.927845
But that's why I think we as conflict resolvers need to maintain that frame.
251
00:38:17,988.927845 --> 00:38:19,58.9275398
We need to hold the calm.
252
00:38:19,108.9275398 --> 00:38:26,838.927845
Because we can get into an individual dispute, and then we lose sight of perspective, and then we just go further and further down the rabbit hole of escalation.
253
00:38:27,128.9287605 --> 00:38:31,128.9279976
And I think mediators and dispute resolution can help pull us out of that, which is a gift.
254
00:38:31,158.9267769 --> 00:38:33,438.9255562
I think people say to me, "What a terrible job.
255
00:38:33,438.9255562 --> 00:38:34,908.9267769
You're just with fighting people all day."
256
00:38:35,208.9260139 --> 00:38:37,418.9250984
It's like, "No, no, I get to help them stop fighting."
257
00:38:37,418.9250984 --> 00:38:41,428.9272347
That's the best thing that you can do, you know, the best job you can have.
258
00:38:41,468.9272347 --> 00:38:48,778.927845
anyway, you can tell I'm passionate about this, and I know we share that passion, and I wanna spark that passion in more people because I, I sense there's a hunger for it.
259
00:38:49,384.9267602 --> 00:38:55,494.9267769
I agree with everything you're there's I share also a you the enthusiasm for this technology.
260
00:38:55,494.9267769 --> 00:38:58,164.9267769
I think it can be some game-changer.
261
00:38:58,164.9267769 --> 00:39:09,184.9270272
Some of the platforms that we have seen, like ChatGPT, right There is a better way and there is thinking and process And not that we've touched on it create but I think answers very quickly.
262
00:39:09,214.9269986 --> 00:39:16,604.9270439
And I want to ask about speed and accuracy.
263
00:39:16,654.9272347 --> 00:39:43,958.9248505
How do you balance those two things? have the ability to to access more people to provide access of mediation to more people but also you know to spread education and awareness about ODR and mediation I wanna ask you just because we're coming to the top of our time here if people are interested in learning more about how they can use technology in mediation what are what are some of the things that you point them to Well, it's, this is the hottest topic.
264
00:39:43,958.9248505 --> 00:39:48,418.9254131
95% of my presentations these days Mm-hmm You know, mediate.com
265
00:39:48,418.9254131 --> 00:39:49,508.9255657
is a great resource.
266
00:39:49,538.9252987 --> 00:39:51,278.9250698
obviously, it's been around for 30 years.
267
00:39:51,578.9252605 --> 00:39:54,18.9248409
We have lots and lots of trainings and articles.
268
00:39:54,18.9248409 --> 00:39:54,868.9252224
We have webinars.
269
00:39:55,108.9249935 --> 00:39:58,738.9241543
We have a series that we're doing now, which is freely, anybody can join at no cost.
270
00:39:58,738.9241543 --> 00:40:00,158.9242306
It's called Dive Into AI.
271
00:40:00,478.9258328 --> 00:40:03,178.9265957
And, you know, we show the latest AI tools.
272
00:40:03,178.9265957 --> 00:40:05,668.9263668
We talk about how they can be used in dispute resolution practice.
273
00:40:05,968.9256039 --> 00:40:08,168.9263668
We've got another meeting coming up first week of June.
274
00:40:08,448.9270535 --> 00:40:10,128.9254513
So if anybody wants to come to mediate.com.
275
00:40:10,128.9254513 --> 00:40:12,88.9283505
But we also have trainings at mediateuniversity.com.
276
00:40:12,88.9283505 --> 00:40:14,398.925909
We have a lot of writings.
277
00:40:14,578.9262142 --> 00:40:21,908.9234676
We're doing a conference on AI and mediation, at Harvard University in mid-June at ODR2026.org.
278
00:40:22,248.9228573 --> 00:40:24,608.9234676
so, you know, I, I feel like you're right.
279
00:40:25,208.9219418 --> 00:40:33,668.9248409
Our objectives as dispute resolvers have not changed, but our toolbox is changing all the time because we have all these powerful tools that are put into it.
280
00:40:33,668.9248409 --> 00:40:48,68.9256039
So same goals, new tools, but how do we get people fast and fair resolutions to their disputes? The same question that animated Francis Keller, 100 years ago, that animated Frank Sander here on my wall.
281
00:40:48,228.929266 --> 00:40:55,548.9320126
I always ask myself, WWFSD, what would Frank Sander do? you know, he didn't have access to artificial intelligence, but this is a powerful tool.
282
00:40:55,848.9350643 --> 00:41:08,338.9329281
How can we expand the reach of what we do with these tools? So if anybody wants to learn more about this, be part of the conversation as we reinvent the field and we welcome in these fourth parties, these AIs, to our mediation rooms, please come to mediate.com,
283
00:41:08,428.929266 --> 00:41:10,128.9338436
come to odr.info,
284
00:41:10,338.9329281 --> 00:41:12,548.9320126
the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution.
285
00:41:12,868.9317074 --> 00:41:13,878.9338436
come join the discussion.
286
00:41:14,258.9341488 --> 00:41:20,468.9378109
but I think, certainly there's some challenges, there's some risks in these tools, but I think the opportunities outweigh the risk.
287
00:41:20,468.9378109 --> 00:41:27,598.9350643
and we're gonna be able to leverage these tools to expand the reach of quality dispute resolution beyond anything our, forefathers and foremothers could have imagined.
288
00:41:27,598.9350643 --> 00:41:27,658.9326229
Right.
289
00:41:27,658.9326229 --> 00:41:28,458.9356747
I think this is such an exciting topic.
290
00:41:29,319.9344802 --> 00:42:18,555.9397278
Yeah and I I just wanna There have been on too I was talking great good leaps in AI in new friend John Land the last- Absolutely yeah on a podcast soon And John Land and I and another gal Renee Jackson are gonna be at the ODR AI Conference in June which you're so wonderfully hosting But I will say one thing that is just so poignant to me is you know technology and AI they're happening right And that gives mediation an opportunity to help grow and I think proliferate build awareness build access to the things that we really believe in And in order to really leverage that we have to embrace it We have to be part of the narrative We have to be using it We have to be figuring out how it can be applied in these areas not only for I think our profession but for the greater sense of right I think what we do is so important Mm-hmm.
291
00:42:18,611.9379063 --> 00:42:34,945.9387026
You and I know that so much And if we can insert and inject ourselves into this growth and what is happening then that means we will be a part of it in a more meaningful way and I hope that people really see that as an opportunity and not something to be fearful of Amen.
292
00:42:35,425.9387217 --> 00:42:36,5.9387646
Amen, Mo.
293
00:42:36,385.9385929 --> 00:42:38,515.9386597
you're, you are singing from my hymnal.
294
00:42:38,845.9382973 --> 00:42:40,915.9379921
as they say, from your mouth to God's ears.
295
00:42:40,915.9379921 --> 00:42:42,615.9382782
So I think that's great.
296
00:42:42,615.9382782 --> 00:42:45,775.9402237
you're doing at Levelheaded and, and, and running this podcast.
297
00:42:45,775.9402237 --> 00:42:46,795.9387741
It helps to get the word out.
298
00:42:46,795.9387741 --> 00:42:48,155.9393845
So, onward.
299
00:42:48,430.9403143 --> 00:42:54,990.9404955
Well thank you so much It has been a pleasure speaking with you today I couldn't be more excited about taking the mediate.com
300
00:42:54,990.9404955 --> 00:43:11,300.9401522
podcast and building off of all the wonderful conversations that you've had as Colin and I mentioned watch out or look out for the ODR AI Conference coming up here in June We'd love to see you all there and don't hesitate to reach out to Colin or myself if you have wonderful mediate.com
301
00:43:11,600.9412966 --> 00:43:16,955.9406385
ideas or podcast guests that you'd like to share Thank you so much Colin Thank you, Mo.
302
00:43:17,800.941386 --> 00:43:19,410.9414301
Hey, this is Morgan.
303
00:43:19,750.9412966 --> 00:43:23,860.9409533
I get so much feedback from it- that I've had to record it in Zoom.
304
00:43:24,630.941411 --> 00:43:24,980.9408388
Okay.
305
00:43:25,150.9411058 --> 00:43:26,630.9396944
do you wanna test it? Yeah.
306
00:43:26,630.9396944 --> 00:43:27,640.9399233
Why don't you...
307
00:43:27,840.9397326 --> 00:43:31,390.940877
I'm gonna send this to you and join, and then you can help me.
308
00:43:31,430.9398851 --> 00:43:33,640.940877
Yeah, I mean, that's a new tool for me.
309
00:43:34,20.9400377 --> 00:43:34,320.9411821
Okay.
310
00:43:34,320.9411821 --> 00:43:38,160.9413347
You could definitely use Zoom, or Colin may even have a better way to record it.
311
00:43:38,390.940877 --> 00:43:39,680.9398851
He uses Descript.
312
00:43:39,930.9398851 --> 00:43:40,700.9403429
Oh, he does? Yeah.
313
00:43:41,320.9411821 --> 00:43:44,980.9391222
So, I mean, he could record it too and give it to us if he has a setup that's good.
314
00:43:45,960.9424791 --> 00:43:49,480.9386644
Well, I'm kind of trying to make it look like I know what I'm doing.
315
00:43:49,800.9383593 --> 00:43:50,150.9406481
Sure.
316
00:43:50,440.9377489 --> 00:43:52,660.9397326
Okay, so where did you send that link? Okay.
317
00:43:53,380.9409533 --> 00:43:57,290.9415636
All right, I'm gonna kinda go downstairs so it doesn't sound really weird.
318
00:43:57,400.942174 --> 00:44:17,40.9421287
Let us know when you begin.
319
00:44:37,140.9421477 --> 00:44:38,610.9421763
Okay, hold on.
320
00:44:41,890.9421668 --> 00:44:42,60.9421239
I'm...
321
00:44:43,37.9421477 --> 00:44:45,97.9420905
Okay.
322
00:44:45,680.9422526 --> 00:44:48,970.9419761
See? There's a really bad feedback loop.
323
00:44:50,796.9421644 --> 00:44:52,820.942162
Hi, can you hear me I can hear you good.
324
00:44:54,186.9421549 --> 00:44:55,376.942162
Yeah, You sound fine to me.
325
00:44:55,630.9420834 --> 00:44:56,140.9421334
Okay.
326
00:44:57,186.9421048 --> 00:44:58,226.9420667
Hi, this is Rob.
327
00:44:58,226.9420667 --> 00:45:00,270.9419713
Hi, who are you? I'm Morgan Tregenza.
328
00:45:00,270.9419713 --> 00:45:04,786.9419999
You can't hear the feedback loop? Sounds totally clean and good on my end.
329
00:45:05,140.9420738 --> 00:45:05,650.9421239
Okay.
330
00:45:06,376.9421048 --> 00:45:09,476.9420094
Hey, hey, the-- we're gonna talk about a podcast today, about Level Headed.
331
00:45:09,476.9420094 --> 00:45:10,136.9418569
Hi, Colin.
332
00:45:10,166.9425435 --> 00:45:11,750.9421
You talk? Hi there.
333
00:45:11,890.9420857 --> 00:45:14,50.9419332
And I am Morgan.
334
00:45:14,50.9419332 --> 00:45:19,646.9419332
Can you hear any feedback? Can you hear any feedback? No.
335
00:45:19,790.9419117 --> 00:45:20,140.9419355
okay.
336
00:45:20,240.9419594 --> 00:45:20,490.9419594
Okay.
337
00:45:20,490.9419594 --> 00:45:26,26.9419403
Well, then I'll just use this, and I'm gonna stop the recording Okay.
