Todd Deatherage: All right. Well, tonight or today we're re we're turning the tables and I get to ask Senator Hutchinson questions. ⁓ and we have the I have the privilege and the pleasure of talking about his new book that I have ⁓ been waiting for for a long time and encouraging for many years and so was so glad to see it out and now actually ⁓ got an advanced copy to be able to read it and I read it with ⁓ a lot of joy and enthusiasm and learned a few things but knew a lot of the stories that you told. But I I'm just excited to talk to you about it tonight, Senator, and I'm glad we have this opportunity and I'm just eager for others to know about your book and get to get it out into the world. We need we need more good stories like this right now. So thank you. Thanks for thanks for writing it. It's I know that's not an easy thing to do.
Tim Hutchinson: Well, thank you, Todd, and thanks for ⁓ visiting with me tonight about the book. It releases June twenty third, so we're we're coming right up on it and we wanted to tell folks about it. And I can't think of anybody I'd rather have interview me or talk with me and visit with me about this memoir than you, who served with me my entire time in the house and in the Senate, who campaigned with me and I'm so grateful for what you mean. ⁓ to me in this journey that that I've written about in in ⁓ from Spavidaw to DC.
Todd Deatherage: Wow. Well thank you. Yeah, I I have known you at least thirty-six years. ⁓ and so it's been ⁓ the thirty-six of the formative years of my life. So I'm sitting ⁓ speaking to you tonight from ⁓ the basement of my home in in Northern Virginia, just outside Washington DC. I wouldn't live here except for you. So there's just a lot that you have shaped ⁓ in in not just how I live in the world, but where I live in the world. So ⁓ it it great influence on my life and I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
Tim Hutchinson: I
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ when I first met you, you were a state representative. You were in the Arkansas General Assembly representing ⁓ a district in the very northwest corner of the state. And your kids were students of mine at Child of Christian School in Springdale, Arkansas. And you were one of ⁓ nine, as I recall it, nine legislat ⁓ la letters who were Republican and there were ninety-one Democrats. So ⁓ is that the right do I have do I have the num my memory right on that?
Tim Hutchinson: You you got it exactly right. We reached our high point with thirteen and we could never have envisioned ⁓ how red Arkansas is today.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. Yeah, it was a very different world back then. And so I think it's it's very safe to say ⁓ that you have always been a trailblazer. That's just one of the stories. But you were blazing a trail, ⁓ one of only nine out of a hundred Republican legislators way back in the eighties and early nineties. ⁓ and so I I was thinking about that theme as I'm reading your book, and you know, you gave up ⁓ a safe seat in Congress to become the first elected Republican senator from Arkansas. and There's just a lot in your story I think that may suggest wha how that came to be. But what did you discover in writing this book about your beginnings on Spavan Creek and Benton County that that you think gave you such a ma a pioneering spirit?
Tim Hutchinson: Well, first of all, I ought to say I g I'm amused by by people who struggle to figure out this title of this book, from Spavanaugh to and most folks have never heard of Spavanaugh, nor do they know how to say it, but Spavanaugh Creek is a creek that ran through our farm, three and a half miles west of Gravit, Arkansas, just a few miles from the Missouri line. And Dad always said ⁓ son, we've got 19 springs on this ⁓ on this farm and they all flow into Spavinaw Creek. That was where I spent the first 13, 14 years of my life. And ⁓ it gave us I I was always amazed at how how extr how much extraordinary freedom mom and dad gave us. We had a 250-acre farm, we had caves everywhere, we've had places to roam and hunt and explore. And we did all of that and and and it gave us ⁓ first of all a sense of adventure and I think also a willingness to kind of take risks. We we we weren't afraid. We'd hitchhike to school, we would walk the ⁓ we we we we just were had were given a great deal of freedom. I cannot believe I don't know that I would want to be as free with my kids as they were with us. We would explore in the caves, ⁓ if we'd have broke a leg in there. I don't know. They'd known where we were. But it was that ⁓ that freedom and that sense of adventure and a willingness to take risks that really, I think, prepared me for later in life. when I mean no one goes too far in the political world if you're not willing to take a risk. And ⁓ as you mentioned, I I served in the Arkansas legislature. I had eight years in Two more years I was gonna be vested for retirement. And ⁓ we jumped off and left the state legislature to run for Congress. And it was no cinch that year because Bill Clinton was the head of the ticket and it was an open seat and whatnot. And then 96. So we can talk about all of that. But I really think the Spavanaugh Creek, you know, I ⁓ the the Hendron and Hutchinson families, which I write about in the memoir. We've we've had Family members in the state legislature elected office or federal government for over fifty years now. ⁓ and that that marriage of families, the Hutchinsons and the Hendron, started on Spavanaugh Creek. My sister Mary Lee's been married to Kim Hendron now for sixty some odd years. I'm not sure exactly. But they were boyfriend, girlfriend back in elementary school in Gravit. And they did their courting there on the farm on Spavanaugh Creek. I remember one time, this is not in the book, this is just family folklore. Asa and I were always bugging them. They Kim was getting serious about his courtship, and we were always getting in the way. And one day he said, Why don't you boys take your wagon and ride it over the hill? Well, we did exactly that. Asa split his head open and ended up in the hospital and
Todd Deatherage: Bonus.
Tim Hutchinson: We've never let Kim forget it. But they got married and ⁓ that was the beginning of this ⁓ political merger of families that ⁓ the Hendrons are many of their their families buried there in Bethel Cemetery, overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. My mom and dad are buried at Bethel Cemetery overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. And my story starts there and someday it'll probably End I'll be buried there, overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. So that's where it all started. That's how I got the name for the for the memoir.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, you and you really be you wrote really beautiful about about that place. About the creek, about the cemetery, about the farm, all those things in in different parts of the book and especially at the end very poignantly. That was really beautiful. So your parents were not helicopter parents, and they they did they had this beautiful farm in this place to to let you roam free, but they made the decision too. Maybe they were tired 'cause they w they had older ⁓ you were the young guys. So that may have factored in as a as a parent of four kids. I g I I know that that may have been factoring in too.
Tim Hutchinson: I think they were a little freer with ⁓ Ace and I.
Todd Deatherage: That's not unusual, right? But that that that made for ⁓ yeah, a really am amazing childhood. But that sense of adventure, I think that was one of the things that I ⁓ immediately kind of noticed about you as I was getting to know you, just how adventurous you were. And that other thing about you mentioned about, you know, leaving the state legislature before you're vested and ⁓ the ⁓ leaving your safe house seat and and Congress to run for the Senate and all those sorts of things and how how the sort of financial aspect ⁓ of what you should do. Never weighed in on in all the time I worked with you or for you, that was never a a calculation. You were you were trying to do the right thing. ⁓ and so I think this book is really good at kind of giving a foundation of how you how how that how you were shaped in that way to just to see the world as a place you wanted to bring change to, much more than you wanted to to just, you know, make a living and profit from ⁓ as you went along and and play it play it safe.
Tim Hutchinson: Well Todd this might be the this might be the place I oughta say. I was talking to my wonderful wife Randy and I said, you know, Randy, I started a Christian school on a shoestring budget. And and we started a Christian my brother and I started a Christian radio station on a shoestring budget. I was always outspent in every election. ⁓ way outspent when I ran for Congress. We ran that on a shoestring budget. ⁓ when when I finally got to the Senate We had to file the s financial disclosure ⁓ every year, and I was the poorest US senator. And I said, Randy, now I'm writing a book on a s shoestring budget. And she said, It's your brand. So my brand
Todd Deatherage: It's very it's very on brand. Yes, that is true. It did make our job easier in dealing with the media and the press and campaigning too when you were the poorest member of the United States Senate. That wasn't a a thing we had to fight charges against. ⁓ one of the questions I wanted to ask is just what was your favorite part about the book? ⁓ or ⁓ what what is your favorite part about the book itself now that it's written, or what was your favorite part about writing it? Because I know it's hard work. It's not an easy thing to write a book.
Tim Hutchinson: Well it it is hard work. But boy, I've really come to have a new appreciation for authors and writers. It it is hard work. But it was very rewarding in the research. I tried to the best I could to corroborate and get my facts straight and and I learned a lot when I did that. I learned I learned that I had a great grandfather who was a colonel in the Confederate ⁓ army. Who's buried in Nashville, Arkansas? And ⁓ he was my father's grandfather, and that he was a businessman who was greatly admired in the community. I didn't know any of that. I learned, I I talk about in the memoir about ⁓ the times of prayer we had in the Capitol Chapel. and it's a little chapel that is just off the rotunda. I'd been there many times, and it's a beautiful little thing. Most tourists never see it. And ⁓ I learned that that was established by legislation sponsored by a senator from Oklahoma, Moroni, and a congressman from Arkansas, Brooks Hayes. Now I knew Brooks Hayes was a ⁓ committed Christian, but I didn't know that they were the ones who established that capital child. I learned all kinds of things. And but writing the book was at times painful. at times very introspective and but also lots of joyful memories. And ⁓ one of those one of those really joyful memories is when I'd been elected to the Senate. My brother Asa had been elected to the House. That was a pretty rare event. It only happened f I think four times were brothers, one in the House, one in the Senate. It was very rare. And my mom had never been to Washington. So I write a chapter about Mrs. Hutchinson going to our nation's capital to see her sons sworn in. That was a great memory and a lot of fun to write about, and her meeting her meeting with Bill Clinton.
Todd Deatherage: That yeah. That was a That was a great story. I mean, the whole setup for that is a great story. But yeah, and her in the White House was amazing too. Being charmed by President Clinton, ⁓ which was w with its own great story. I I remember when you guys were both elected, and that's you know, I was in DC and we all lived in the same building in our in in Pentagon City. And ⁓ and I had a car some days of the week. Neither of you guys had a car, and we had one car between us, and when Judy didn't need it, I could drive it to work. So I would drive the three of us to work. And somebody said one day, you realize if you have an accident and go and drive off the Fourteenth Street Bridge, you're taking a third of the Arkansas congressional delegation with you. So so I try to be really careful after that. Well, I the one of the questions I had and you've sort of answered it, but is did you learn anything about yourself? And you talked about your family history, but did you learn anything else about yourself from writing this book? I g you kind of doing research on your own life, right?
Tim Hutchinson: Lots of great memories. Yeah, you know, I think it's not in my case, it wasn't learning about myself so much as being reminded of God's grace and the gratitude that that that I should have. No no politician reaches the US Senate, US House, high high places in government without scores of people helping them along the way. And such it and it brought back a lot of the when I ran for Congress, the little coffees that we would have, which turned into little prayer meetings. And ⁓ the time I walked into the headquarters and saw all of these volunteers circling around these these mailbags and I didn't know what was going on. They had a big fundraising letter that they had worked on and about twenty thousand letters ready to go out. And they were all holding hands and they were saying I said, What are you doing? We're we're asking God's blessing on this fundraiser. But I I I I have so much to be grateful for for my parents, for my family, but for all of the people, my staff. What would I I could never have done what I did without ⁓ such dedicated staff. That's what ⁓ whatn it wasn't that I didn't know it, but I have a new appreciation for it.
Todd Deatherage: Well, you always built a good team too. You always drew you always drew people to you because you had an energy, you had an intellect. Well, he he was your weakest link for sure, at least the one in the Senate. But ⁓ but you you definitely drew people to you because you you had this you were you were super smart and you also were super committed and you were there to make a difference and not just to have this safe job and kinda do the thing everybody does, but you were literally trying to make a difference. And so
Tim Hutchinson: I had a good chief of staff who knew who to hire.
Todd Deatherage: People who wanted to make a difference, people who had energy and wanted to to join part of that, they they they love to work for you. So it was always ⁓ it was always easy to get people to come on the team and we had a lot of good folks on the team over the years. Yeah. Those years in Congress at least were really, really great years. ⁓ one of the things that struck me about reading the book was I it there was a ⁓ you know, I know you're a great Myer of Ronald Reagan's. We've talked we've ⁓ had these conversations for years. ⁓ but
Tim Hutchinson: We did. We really did.
Todd Deatherage: But there was a Reagan-esque quality to the whole book. ⁓ I think, you know, fear is a great motivator, and it's it's all too easy for politicians to motivate people by making them feel afraid or playing to their fears or even their prejudices. But you never did that. And you don't do that in this book. ⁓ and I there's a sunny optimism about this, but it's not like some disconnected from, you know, reality kind of optimism. ⁓ but it is this. It comes it you just a this this conviction comes across ⁓ that you you know the world as it is in all the messy and brokenness but you also have a belief in goodness and the way that things can be done differently to make the world better, in which we can all flourish better. And so I think that that is kind of a a a theme throughout the book. What advice do you have for younger folks interested in politics today, or just for all of us who are citizens and voters? ⁓ about how to be honest about the world in a way that's true to again the brokenness and the danger that's out there, but also to goodness and possibility.
Tim Hutchinson: that's a tough question, I think. But let me just say you you mentioned Ronald Reagan because he did have a enormous impact on my life. ⁓ nineteen sixty four when he made that speech a time for choosing. And I was a young teenager watching it on black and white television and and and when I didn't have the words to say what I believed he was saying it for me. And that really sparked my interest in politics and then I was in New Orleans. in nineteen eighty eight when he gave his farewell speech at the Republican convention and and I saw the arc of his his career and and it all impacted me and he had a a kind of optimism and a ⁓ a joyfulness about his conservatism. I remember ⁓ Governor Huckabee, our a dear dear friend Mike Huckabee, who's become a better friend through the years and and ⁓ Mike once said y he's a conservative, but I'm not a angry conservative. I'm not mad about it. And and I think ⁓ understanding that we live in a a sin-cursed world where where ⁓ we see corruption all around us, we see so many bad things. And and ⁓ since I started a podcast and I've been on social media, I've seen how ugly and how dirty the social media in our country can be. That that that the that we need to lift our eyes. maybe less time on the screen and more time in books would be good. But more than that, lifting our eyes to to the Lord and to the the the one who is sovereign and controls the universe, that that's the ultimate source of optimism that we're on the winning side and that that that we're here to help people and serve people and serve God in doing so. I hope that comes through in the book and and you encouraged me in saying you saw that.
Todd Deatherage: No, I definitely saw that and it that definitely comes through in the book. Another thing that comes through in the book for me ⁓ is the diversity of relationships that you have always had and maintained. And I think there's a f there another thing that that kind of strikes me about the contemporary political moment is that there's a lot of fear about having relationships with people who di we disagree with, as if maybe in being in relationship somebody is gonna be is gonna, I don't know, undermine our own views. I'm not sure. what what the actual fear is, but I I know that you had a lot of confidence in what you believed. And so in that co out of that confidence, you were able to have good friendships and deep relationships with people who have very different views than you. And I know like in a on a practical level, ⁓ you know, you worked across party lines on a number of a number of issues. ⁓ w you write in the book about your work on ⁓ human rights in China and, you know, you're closest collaborators were Russ Feingold and and ⁓ Paul Wellstone, the most liberal members of the Senate at the time, you were the most conservative, and yet doing this common purpose stuff gave me a vision for a way I wanted to live in the world. I mean literally that set me off on a whole different journey after we left the Senate ⁓ that took me into human rights and peacemaking and other things as well. But my point in that is that in this book, whether it's what things you did on the hill, whether it's ⁓ you your golf
Tim Hutchinson: Where we left this.
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ your your golf buddies or your cigar club or your work ⁓ you know in ⁓ in a law firm or in all the different aspects of your life, you always are just casually talking about the fact that you have these diverse set of relationships. And so I just wanna, you know, kind of lean into that and and talk to you about what what h what that has meant to you to have like, you know, people in your life that disagree with you about important things.
Tim Hutchinson: Yeah, well let me ⁓ take that this opportunity to say ⁓ i in politics you you make enemies and and you have people who you think wronged you. ⁓ and one of the temptations in writing a a memoir is that you want to score ⁓ settle scores. And I and this is not a score settling book and and I have I I I I I'm I have resisted as best I can that that that temptation. But a lot of my friends and and today ⁓ in in this political climate, of such a polarized country and such a hyper partisan country, it is easy to to ⁓ live in an echo chamber where you ⁓ listen to what you want to hear only and you talk to people who agree with you only. And I think that's a a terrible mistake. civility is not weakness. It's actually strength. And one thing that has underscored what I believed when I was in Congress, but but has I I wish I could go back. I I think I would be more ⁓ willing to work with people who disagree with me. But doing this podcast where I have t interviewed scores of public officials both sides of the party And I have I have seen all of these former colleagues in a new light. ⁓ I've seen their humanity, that they have the same challenges, the same heartaches, the same hopes and dreams that Republican but both that that human beings have. And ⁓ so I I hope that though I write this as a conservative and and and and I'm conveying my conservative convictions, whether it's on human rights in China or whether it's on balancing the budget. ⁓ I hope I don't come th through and I don't believe we convey a kind of partisanship that is characteristic so much of the of the writing today.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, not at all. No, that's certainly that's certainly not true with I mean, that is how y that's how your podcast is all w what it's all about and that all that comes through in this book. And again, I think sometimes people think if you are living in these diverse relationships, it's 'cause you don't believe anything. You're in some kind of mushy middle space and you don't even know what you believe you're or you don't have the courage of your own convictions. And I think you're just the the the counterexample to that in full. You ha you have deep convictions and that doesn't actually you know, that doesn't pr impede you from being able to work with people. when you find a common interest or just being in relationship with them, just having you know, having ⁓ social relationships with people that are different from you. And I think that that that's really good.
Tim Hutchinson: It's it's interesting. ⁓ I had a first time I've done a podcast where I had a Republican and a Democrat on the same podcast, side by side. And and we talked about the issue of civility, how what we could do to enhance the relationships that are so broken down in the Congress today. And and I pointed out to them that many of those that I have interviewed have said if they could go back, they wish that we could have a we do our Republican caucus, we do our Democratic caucus, we have our lunches in separate places and we talk about how we're gonna beat up on the other team. That if maybe just once a month we could do joint caucuses where we come together, ⁓ that that it would make a little bit of ⁓ headway toward the seeing each other as human beings and finding areas that we could find common ground and work together.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. No, I think on some level we're all gonna have to start doing more of that. I think that's really the it's a call for our time and the fact that you as a former senator and you know, ⁓ th with all of your kind of resume and history and platform, you are kinda you've you've modeled that and you're talking about that. I think that's one of the reasons I think this book and your podcast both are really important in this moment. We need to kind of a we need a vision of a world that was a little different. I remember ⁓ a few years ago I I stumbled across a campaign speech. was it what was it was an event that we were hosting in Little Rock when President Bush came in to do a fundraiser for your campaign. And ⁓ and this was back in two thousand two, early two thousand two I guess, and we just worked on No Child Left Behind, right? Or it just passed education reform in a very bipartisan way. And as you introduced Bush in two thousand two in Little Rock, you you you extolled the fact that he had spent all this time listening to all the different sides of this and bringing Republicans and Democrats together to create this bipartisan bill. And that was the that was the pitch and the selling point for who he was to a Republican fundraiser in Little Rock, right? And I'm just I I showed that to my I sent that to cut to my kids and I'm like, I'm not sure that that could happen today, that somebody would like would go to their party's fundraiser and tell people This guy's a good guy because he works with the other side. I don't I it's a it's a different world. So we need to remember, not even that long ago, we thought about these things differently and we need these stories. So
Tim Hutchinson: Right. I I yeah, I I when I interviewed ⁓ John Boehner, he told a little story about No Child Left Behind. I think who was the Democratic ⁓ chairman or ranking member on education? Was it Miller? ⁓ in the House.
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ in the house. It you may have been Miller, yeah. From California, yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: Anyway, he said that they were having this big confab down in at the ranch to talk about how they were gonna pass No Child Left Behind. I was invited and went down for that. And ⁓ and ⁓ Boehner said that when the White House called and invited him down, he said, is the ranking Democrat going down? And they said, Well we didn't think he'd fit in on this. He said he has a whole different view on and John said, He doesn't come, I don't come. And they brought him down and and ⁓ and
Todd Deatherage: Mm. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And George W. Bush, who who really was a very charming, engaging individual, they hit it off and and won each other over and he ended up supporting, as did Ted Kennedy. Now that may not be an endorsement of the bill, but it it does say an awful lot about how things oughta work.
Todd Deatherage: Yep, that's right. Yeah. No, it was good that that's great. Well, the other part that that comes clear in this, you know, in reading this through, ⁓ is besides your these kinds of relationships, are your family relationships. And so your boys make a lot of you get a lot of ⁓ airtime in this book, ⁓ and especially. And so it's just I don't w I wondered if you wanted to say anything about ⁓ your relationship with these three adult sons who are all ⁓ you know, ⁓ incredible men in their own right and also golfing buddies of yours and You wrote really movingly about some of that. So I didn't I just wanted to put that out there.
Tim Hutchinson: Well, I I'll tell you, ⁓ you're too polite to ask, but the the most painful thing to write and there were some painful parts. This is a it's raw and it's it's candid and it's personal. but the the hardest thing was writing about my son Jeremy and and his ⁓ indictment and conviction and spending two years in federal prison and that was one of the hardest chapters in the journey of my life.
Todd Deatherage: Very honest. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And I love all three of my sons. They're just wonderful sons and they gave so much to me and worked so hard at all my campaigns. I talk about some of that in the book and I dedicate the book to them. But the probably the hardest day in my life was when I flew to Little Rock and Jeremy was being sentenced and and I stood in the back of that courtroom and it was it was agonizing. It was it was as if you had experienced a death in a family.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And when when a member of your family goes to prison, and I write a whole chapter about this in the book, it's not just him going to prison, the whole family goes to prison. And it was it w it was a a terrible ordeal. But in the darkest places where you find the the God's grace the greatest, I quote Andre Crouch. I I learned to trust in Jesus. I learned to trust in God through it all. And ⁓ and that's that's was my experience. I just prayed that I would live long enough to see Jeremy released and and and I'm so thankful that he was part.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, and you wrote beautifully about that, about your own and Randy's struggles with with health issues, with cancer and ⁓ just other you you that's there's a lot of honesty, a lot of things are in here. ⁓ there they're great and funny stories, they're inspiring stories, they're difficult stories, and I think that's r it's a really admirable way that you just you tried to kind of lay it all out there and be yourself through all of it. and I it you know, it it made for a very interesting book all the way through. ⁓ So thank you for taking us on that journey and inviting so many people into it. I hope lots of people buy your book. ⁓ What do you hope people take away from reading this book?
Tim Hutchinson: I hope that that ⁓ that readers walk away with a sense that a life doesn't have to be perfect for it to be meaningful and that grace can meet you in places that you absolutely never expected. I hope that that that they see civility, that they see character, they see that second chances are real and they can change the trajectory of a life. ⁓ And maybe most of all I hope that they see the story of America. ⁓ America at its best, the story of ordinary people ⁓ trying to do the right thing and and ⁓ stumbling sometimes or getting back up and and carrying their values and their principles and their Christianity with them. And if someone closes the book and they say, Maybe maybe my story matters too, then I think ⁓ It will have I will have accomplished my purpose.
Todd Deatherage: That's great. I love that. That's really wonderful. Any any other ⁓ any other chapter you wanna highlight, any other part of the book or ⁓ any other story?
Tim Hutchinson: Well, this has been so much fun, Todd. I'm grateful that you take time to visit with me about it. And I hope folks will if they're interested, if it sounds interesting to them and more than interesting, ⁓ if they think that there's a lesson that would be worthwhile for them, check it out and ⁓ and I hope they enjoy it.
Todd Deatherage: No, or order it now. Pre orders matter. If it if you're getting from Amazon, the pre-orders actually matter. So go ahead and order it now and go ahead and order two because you're gonna want to give one away to somebody else. So put a couple of those orders in now. And if you if you ⁓ like to use independent bookstores, which I think is also a great idea, go to a small business owner, s an independent bookstore and get it there. That's actually even better than than Amazon. So ⁓ yes, please get the book. It's it's a great read. And thank you for taking the time to write it. ⁓ again.
Tim Hutchinson: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Todd Deatherage: There's some of us who worked for you who for a long time were encouraging you to do this. ⁓ and so I'm really glad that it finally happened. So thank you. I'm glad it's getting out into the world. All right.
Tim Hutchinson: Thanks, Todd.
Tim Hutchinson: Well, thank you, Todd, and thanks for ⁓ visiting with me tonight about the book. It releases June twenty third, so we're we're coming right up on it and we wanted to tell folks about it. And I can't think of anybody I'd rather have interview me or talk with me and visit with me about this memoir than you, who served with me my entire time in the house and in the Senate, who campaigned with me and I'm so grateful for what you mean. ⁓ to me in this journey that that I've written about in in ⁓ from Spavidaw to DC.
Todd Deatherage: Wow. Well thank you. Yeah, I I have known you at least thirty-six years. ⁓ and so it's been ⁓ the thirty-six of the formative years of my life. So I'm sitting ⁓ speaking to you tonight from ⁓ the basement of my home in in Northern Virginia, just outside Washington DC. I wouldn't live here except for you. So there's just a lot that you have shaped ⁓ in in not just how I live in the world, but where I live in the world. So ⁓ it it great influence on my life and I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
Tim Hutchinson: I
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ when I first met you, you were a state representative. You were in the Arkansas General Assembly representing ⁓ a district in the very northwest corner of the state. And your kids were students of mine at Child of Christian School in Springdale, Arkansas. And you were one of ⁓ nine, as I recall it, nine legislat ⁓ la letters who were Republican and there were ninety-one Democrats. So ⁓ is that the right do I have do I have the num my memory right on that?
Tim Hutchinson: You you got it exactly right. We reached our high point with thirteen and we could never have envisioned ⁓ how red Arkansas is today.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. Yeah, it was a very different world back then. And so I think it's it's very safe to say ⁓ that you have always been a trailblazer. That's just one of the stories. But you were blazing a trail, ⁓ one of only nine out of a hundred Republican legislators way back in the eighties and early nineties. ⁓ and so I I was thinking about that theme as I'm reading your book, and you know, you gave up ⁓ a safe seat in Congress to become the first elected Republican senator from Arkansas. and There's just a lot in your story I think that may suggest wha how that came to be. But what did you discover in writing this book about your beginnings on Spavan Creek and Benton County that that you think gave you such a ma a pioneering spirit?
Tim Hutchinson: Well, first of all, I ought to say I g I'm amused by by people who struggle to figure out this title of this book, from Spavanaugh to and most folks have never heard of Spavanaugh, nor do they know how to say it, but Spavanaugh Creek is a creek that ran through our farm, three and a half miles west of Gravit, Arkansas, just a few miles from the Missouri line. And Dad always said ⁓ son, we've got 19 springs on this ⁓ on this farm and they all flow into Spavinaw Creek. That was where I spent the first 13, 14 years of my life. And ⁓ it gave us I I was always amazed at how how extr how much extraordinary freedom mom and dad gave us. We had a 250-acre farm, we had caves everywhere, we've had places to roam and hunt and explore. And we did all of that and and and it gave us ⁓ first of all a sense of adventure and I think also a willingness to kind of take risks. We we we weren't afraid. We'd hitchhike to school, we would walk the ⁓ we we we we just were had were given a great deal of freedom. I cannot believe I don't know that I would want to be as free with my kids as they were with us. We would explore in the caves, ⁓ if we'd have broke a leg in there. I don't know. They'd known where we were. But it was that ⁓ that freedom and that sense of adventure and a willingness to take risks that really, I think, prepared me for later in life. when I mean no one goes too far in the political world if you're not willing to take a risk. And ⁓ as you mentioned, I I served in the Arkansas legislature. I had eight years in Two more years I was gonna be vested for retirement. And ⁓ we jumped off and left the state legislature to run for Congress. And it was no cinch that year because Bill Clinton was the head of the ticket and it was an open seat and whatnot. And then 96. So we can talk about all of that. But I really think the Spavanaugh Creek, you know, I ⁓ the the Hendron and Hutchinson families, which I write about in the memoir. We've we've had Family members in the state legislature elected office or federal government for over fifty years now. ⁓ and that that marriage of families, the Hutchinsons and the Hendron, started on Spavanaugh Creek. My sister Mary Lee's been married to Kim Hendron now for sixty some odd years. I'm not sure exactly. But they were boyfriend, girlfriend back in elementary school in Gravit. And they did their courting there on the farm on Spavanaugh Creek. I remember one time, this is not in the book, this is just family folklore. Asa and I were always bugging them. They Kim was getting serious about his courtship, and we were always getting in the way. And one day he said, Why don't you boys take your wagon and ride it over the hill? Well, we did exactly that. Asa split his head open and ended up in the hospital and
Todd Deatherage: Bonus.
Tim Hutchinson: We've never let Kim forget it. But they got married and ⁓ that was the beginning of this ⁓ political merger of families that ⁓ the Hendrons are many of their their families buried there in Bethel Cemetery, overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. My mom and dad are buried at Bethel Cemetery overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. And my story starts there and someday it'll probably End I'll be buried there, overlooking Spavanaugh Creek. So that's where it all started. That's how I got the name for the for the memoir.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, you and you really be you wrote really beautiful about about that place. About the creek, about the cemetery, about the farm, all those things in in different parts of the book and especially at the end very poignantly. That was really beautiful. So your parents were not helicopter parents, and they they did they had this beautiful farm in this place to to let you roam free, but they made the decision too. Maybe they were tired 'cause they w they had older ⁓ you were the young guys. So that may have factored in as a as a parent of four kids. I g I I know that that may have been factoring in too.
Tim Hutchinson: I think they were a little freer with ⁓ Ace and I.
Todd Deatherage: That's not unusual, right? But that that that made for ⁓ yeah, a really am amazing childhood. But that sense of adventure, I think that was one of the things that I ⁓ immediately kind of noticed about you as I was getting to know you, just how adventurous you were. And that other thing about you mentioned about, you know, leaving the state legislature before you're vested and ⁓ the ⁓ leaving your safe house seat and and Congress to run for the Senate and all those sorts of things and how how the sort of financial aspect ⁓ of what you should do. Never weighed in on in all the time I worked with you or for you, that was never a a calculation. You were you were trying to do the right thing. ⁓ and so I think this book is really good at kind of giving a foundation of how you how how that how you were shaped in that way to just to see the world as a place you wanted to bring change to, much more than you wanted to to just, you know, make a living and profit from ⁓ as you went along and and play it play it safe.
Tim Hutchinson: Well Todd this might be the this might be the place I oughta say. I was talking to my wonderful wife Randy and I said, you know, Randy, I started a Christian school on a shoestring budget. And and we started a Christian my brother and I started a Christian radio station on a shoestring budget. I was always outspent in every election. ⁓ way outspent when I ran for Congress. We ran that on a shoestring budget. ⁓ when when I finally got to the Senate We had to file the s financial disclosure ⁓ every year, and I was the poorest US senator. And I said, Randy, now I'm writing a book on a s shoestring budget. And she said, It's your brand. So my brand
Todd Deatherage: It's very it's very on brand. Yes, that is true. It did make our job easier in dealing with the media and the press and campaigning too when you were the poorest member of the United States Senate. That wasn't a a thing we had to fight charges against. ⁓ one of the questions I wanted to ask is just what was your favorite part about the book? ⁓ or ⁓ what what is your favorite part about the book itself now that it's written, or what was your favorite part about writing it? Because I know it's hard work. It's not an easy thing to write a book.
Tim Hutchinson: Well it it is hard work. But boy, I've really come to have a new appreciation for authors and writers. It it is hard work. But it was very rewarding in the research. I tried to the best I could to corroborate and get my facts straight and and I learned a lot when I did that. I learned I learned that I had a great grandfather who was a colonel in the Confederate ⁓ army. Who's buried in Nashville, Arkansas? And ⁓ he was my father's grandfather, and that he was a businessman who was greatly admired in the community. I didn't know any of that. I learned, I I talk about in the memoir about ⁓ the times of prayer we had in the Capitol Chapel. and it's a little chapel that is just off the rotunda. I'd been there many times, and it's a beautiful little thing. Most tourists never see it. And ⁓ I learned that that was established by legislation sponsored by a senator from Oklahoma, Moroni, and a congressman from Arkansas, Brooks Hayes. Now I knew Brooks Hayes was a ⁓ committed Christian, but I didn't know that they were the ones who established that capital child. I learned all kinds of things. And but writing the book was at times painful. at times very introspective and but also lots of joyful memories. And ⁓ one of those one of those really joyful memories is when I'd been elected to the Senate. My brother Asa had been elected to the House. That was a pretty rare event. It only happened f I think four times were brothers, one in the House, one in the Senate. It was very rare. And my mom had never been to Washington. So I write a chapter about Mrs. Hutchinson going to our nation's capital to see her sons sworn in. That was a great memory and a lot of fun to write about, and her meeting her meeting with Bill Clinton.
Todd Deatherage: That yeah. That was a That was a great story. I mean, the whole setup for that is a great story. But yeah, and her in the White House was amazing too. Being charmed by President Clinton, ⁓ which was w with its own great story. I I remember when you guys were both elected, and that's you know, I was in DC and we all lived in the same building in our in in Pentagon City. And ⁓ and I had a car some days of the week. Neither of you guys had a car, and we had one car between us, and when Judy didn't need it, I could drive it to work. So I would drive the three of us to work. And somebody said one day, you realize if you have an accident and go and drive off the Fourteenth Street Bridge, you're taking a third of the Arkansas congressional delegation with you. So so I try to be really careful after that. Well, I the one of the questions I had and you've sort of answered it, but is did you learn anything about yourself? And you talked about your family history, but did you learn anything else about yourself from writing this book? I g you kind of doing research on your own life, right?
Tim Hutchinson: Lots of great memories. Yeah, you know, I think it's not in my case, it wasn't learning about myself so much as being reminded of God's grace and the gratitude that that that I should have. No no politician reaches the US Senate, US House, high high places in government without scores of people helping them along the way. And such it and it brought back a lot of the when I ran for Congress, the little coffees that we would have, which turned into little prayer meetings. And ⁓ the time I walked into the headquarters and saw all of these volunteers circling around these these mailbags and I didn't know what was going on. They had a big fundraising letter that they had worked on and about twenty thousand letters ready to go out. And they were all holding hands and they were saying I said, What are you doing? We're we're asking God's blessing on this fundraiser. But I I I I have so much to be grateful for for my parents, for my family, but for all of the people, my staff. What would I I could never have done what I did without ⁓ such dedicated staff. That's what ⁓ whatn it wasn't that I didn't know it, but I have a new appreciation for it.
Todd Deatherage: Well, you always built a good team too. You always drew you always drew people to you because you had an energy, you had an intellect. Well, he he was your weakest link for sure, at least the one in the Senate. But ⁓ but you you definitely drew people to you because you you had this you were you were super smart and you also were super committed and you were there to make a difference and not just to have this safe job and kinda do the thing everybody does, but you were literally trying to make a difference. And so
Tim Hutchinson: I had a good chief of staff who knew who to hire.
Todd Deatherage: People who wanted to make a difference, people who had energy and wanted to to join part of that, they they they love to work for you. So it was always ⁓ it was always easy to get people to come on the team and we had a lot of good folks on the team over the years. Yeah. Those years in Congress at least were really, really great years. ⁓ one of the things that struck me about reading the book was I it there was a ⁓ you know, I know you're a great Myer of Ronald Reagan's. We've talked we've ⁓ had these conversations for years. ⁓ but
Tim Hutchinson: We did. We really did.
Todd Deatherage: But there was a Reagan-esque quality to the whole book. ⁓ I think, you know, fear is a great motivator, and it's it's all too easy for politicians to motivate people by making them feel afraid or playing to their fears or even their prejudices. But you never did that. And you don't do that in this book. ⁓ and I there's a sunny optimism about this, but it's not like some disconnected from, you know, reality kind of optimism. ⁓ but it is this. It comes it you just a this this conviction comes across ⁓ that you you know the world as it is in all the messy and brokenness but you also have a belief in goodness and the way that things can be done differently to make the world better, in which we can all flourish better. And so I think that that is kind of a a a theme throughout the book. What advice do you have for younger folks interested in politics today, or just for all of us who are citizens and voters? ⁓ about how to be honest about the world in a way that's true to again the brokenness and the danger that's out there, but also to goodness and possibility.
Tim Hutchinson: that's a tough question, I think. But let me just say you you mentioned Ronald Reagan because he did have a enormous impact on my life. ⁓ nineteen sixty four when he made that speech a time for choosing. And I was a young teenager watching it on black and white television and and and when I didn't have the words to say what I believed he was saying it for me. And that really sparked my interest in politics and then I was in New Orleans. in nineteen eighty eight when he gave his farewell speech at the Republican convention and and I saw the arc of his his career and and it all impacted me and he had a a kind of optimism and a ⁓ a joyfulness about his conservatism. I remember ⁓ Governor Huckabee, our a dear dear friend Mike Huckabee, who's become a better friend through the years and and ⁓ Mike once said y he's a conservative, but I'm not a angry conservative. I'm not mad about it. And and I think ⁓ understanding that we live in a a sin-cursed world where where ⁓ we see corruption all around us, we see so many bad things. And and ⁓ since I started a podcast and I've been on social media, I've seen how ugly and how dirty the social media in our country can be. That that that the that we need to lift our eyes. maybe less time on the screen and more time in books would be good. But more than that, lifting our eyes to to the Lord and to the the the one who is sovereign and controls the universe, that that's the ultimate source of optimism that we're on the winning side and that that that we're here to help people and serve people and serve God in doing so. I hope that comes through in the book and and you encouraged me in saying you saw that.
Todd Deatherage: No, I definitely saw that and it that definitely comes through in the book. Another thing that comes through in the book for me ⁓ is the diversity of relationships that you have always had and maintained. And I think there's a f there another thing that that kind of strikes me about the contemporary political moment is that there's a lot of fear about having relationships with people who di we disagree with, as if maybe in being in relationship somebody is gonna be is gonna, I don't know, undermine our own views. I'm not sure. what what the actual fear is, but I I know that you had a lot of confidence in what you believed. And so in that co out of that confidence, you were able to have good friendships and deep relationships with people who have very different views than you. And I know like in a on a practical level, ⁓ you know, you worked across party lines on a number of a number of issues. ⁓ w you write in the book about your work on ⁓ human rights in China and, you know, you're closest collaborators were Russ Feingold and and ⁓ Paul Wellstone, the most liberal members of the Senate at the time, you were the most conservative, and yet doing this common purpose stuff gave me a vision for a way I wanted to live in the world. I mean literally that set me off on a whole different journey after we left the Senate ⁓ that took me into human rights and peacemaking and other things as well. But my point in that is that in this book, whether it's what things you did on the hill, whether it's ⁓ you your golf
Tim Hutchinson: Where we left this.
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ your your golf buddies or your cigar club or your work ⁓ you know in ⁓ in a law firm or in all the different aspects of your life, you always are just casually talking about the fact that you have these diverse set of relationships. And so I just wanna, you know, kind of lean into that and and talk to you about what what h what that has meant to you to have like, you know, people in your life that disagree with you about important things.
Tim Hutchinson: Yeah, well let me ⁓ take that this opportunity to say ⁓ i in politics you you make enemies and and you have people who you think wronged you. ⁓ and one of the temptations in writing a a memoir is that you want to score ⁓ settle scores. And I and this is not a score settling book and and I have I I I I I'm I have resisted as best I can that that that temptation. But a lot of my friends and and today ⁓ in in this political climate, of such a polarized country and such a hyper partisan country, it is easy to to ⁓ live in an echo chamber where you ⁓ listen to what you want to hear only and you talk to people who agree with you only. And I think that's a a terrible mistake. civility is not weakness. It's actually strength. And one thing that has underscored what I believed when I was in Congress, but but has I I wish I could go back. I I think I would be more ⁓ willing to work with people who disagree with me. But doing this podcast where I have t interviewed scores of public officials both sides of the party And I have I have seen all of these former colleagues in a new light. ⁓ I've seen their humanity, that they have the same challenges, the same heartaches, the same hopes and dreams that Republican but both that that human beings have. And ⁓ so I I hope that though I write this as a conservative and and and and I'm conveying my conservative convictions, whether it's on human rights in China or whether it's on balancing the budget. ⁓ I hope I don't come th through and I don't believe we convey a kind of partisanship that is characteristic so much of the of the writing today.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, not at all. No, that's certainly that's certainly not true with I mean, that is how y that's how your podcast is all w what it's all about and that all that comes through in this book. And again, I think sometimes people think if you are living in these diverse relationships, it's 'cause you don't believe anything. You're in some kind of mushy middle space and you don't even know what you believe you're or you don't have the courage of your own convictions. And I think you're just the the the counterexample to that in full. You ha you have deep convictions and that doesn't actually you know, that doesn't pr impede you from being able to work with people. when you find a common interest or just being in relationship with them, just having you know, having ⁓ social relationships with people that are different from you. And I think that that that's really good.
Tim Hutchinson: It's it's interesting. ⁓ I had a first time I've done a podcast where I had a Republican and a Democrat on the same podcast, side by side. And and we talked about the issue of civility, how what we could do to enhance the relationships that are so broken down in the Congress today. And and I pointed out to them that many of those that I have interviewed have said if they could go back, they wish that we could have a we do our Republican caucus, we do our Democratic caucus, we have our lunches in separate places and we talk about how we're gonna beat up on the other team. That if maybe just once a month we could do joint caucuses where we come together, ⁓ that that it would make a little bit of ⁓ headway toward the seeing each other as human beings and finding areas that we could find common ground and work together.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. No, I think on some level we're all gonna have to start doing more of that. I think that's really the it's a call for our time and the fact that you as a former senator and you know, ⁓ th with all of your kind of resume and history and platform, you are kinda you've you've modeled that and you're talking about that. I think that's one of the reasons I think this book and your podcast both are really important in this moment. We need to kind of a we need a vision of a world that was a little different. I remember ⁓ a few years ago I I stumbled across a campaign speech. was it what was it was an event that we were hosting in Little Rock when President Bush came in to do a fundraiser for your campaign. And ⁓ and this was back in two thousand two, early two thousand two I guess, and we just worked on No Child Left Behind, right? Or it just passed education reform in a very bipartisan way. And as you introduced Bush in two thousand two in Little Rock, you you you extolled the fact that he had spent all this time listening to all the different sides of this and bringing Republicans and Democrats together to create this bipartisan bill. And that was the that was the pitch and the selling point for who he was to a Republican fundraiser in Little Rock, right? And I'm just I I showed that to my I sent that to cut to my kids and I'm like, I'm not sure that that could happen today, that somebody would like would go to their party's fundraiser and tell people This guy's a good guy because he works with the other side. I don't I it's a it's a different world. So we need to remember, not even that long ago, we thought about these things differently and we need these stories. So
Tim Hutchinson: Right. I I yeah, I I when I interviewed ⁓ John Boehner, he told a little story about No Child Left Behind. I think who was the Democratic ⁓ chairman or ranking member on education? Was it Miller? ⁓ in the House.
Todd Deatherage: ⁓ in the house. It you may have been Miller, yeah. From California, yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: Anyway, he said that they were having this big confab down in at the ranch to talk about how they were gonna pass No Child Left Behind. I was invited and went down for that. And ⁓ and ⁓ Boehner said that when the White House called and invited him down, he said, is the ranking Democrat going down? And they said, Well we didn't think he'd fit in on this. He said he has a whole different view on and John said, He doesn't come, I don't come. And they brought him down and and ⁓ and
Todd Deatherage: Mm. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And George W. Bush, who who really was a very charming, engaging individual, they hit it off and and won each other over and he ended up supporting, as did Ted Kennedy. Now that may not be an endorsement of the bill, but it it does say an awful lot about how things oughta work.
Todd Deatherage: Yep, that's right. Yeah. No, it was good that that's great. Well, the other part that that comes clear in this, you know, in reading this through, ⁓ is besides your these kinds of relationships, are your family relationships. And so your boys make a lot of you get a lot of ⁓ airtime in this book, ⁓ and especially. And so it's just I don't w I wondered if you wanted to say anything about ⁓ your relationship with these three adult sons who are all ⁓ you know, ⁓ incredible men in their own right and also golfing buddies of yours and You wrote really movingly about some of that. So I didn't I just wanted to put that out there.
Tim Hutchinson: Well, I I'll tell you, ⁓ you're too polite to ask, but the the most painful thing to write and there were some painful parts. This is a it's raw and it's it's candid and it's personal. but the the hardest thing was writing about my son Jeremy and and his ⁓ indictment and conviction and spending two years in federal prison and that was one of the hardest chapters in the journey of my life.
Todd Deatherage: Very honest. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And I love all three of my sons. They're just wonderful sons and they gave so much to me and worked so hard at all my campaigns. I talk about some of that in the book and I dedicate the book to them. But the probably the hardest day in my life was when I flew to Little Rock and Jeremy was being sentenced and and I stood in the back of that courtroom and it was it was agonizing. It was it was as if you had experienced a death in a family.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Hutchinson: And when when a member of your family goes to prison, and I write a whole chapter about this in the book, it's not just him going to prison, the whole family goes to prison. And it was it w it was a a terrible ordeal. But in the darkest places where you find the the God's grace the greatest, I quote Andre Crouch. I I learned to trust in Jesus. I learned to trust in God through it all. And ⁓ and that's that's was my experience. I just prayed that I would live long enough to see Jeremy released and and and I'm so thankful that he was part.
Todd Deatherage: Yeah, and you wrote beautifully about that, about your own and Randy's struggles with with health issues, with cancer and ⁓ just other you you that's there's a lot of honesty, a lot of things are in here. ⁓ there they're great and funny stories, they're inspiring stories, they're difficult stories, and I think that's r it's a really admirable way that you just you tried to kind of lay it all out there and be yourself through all of it. and I it you know, it it made for a very interesting book all the way through. ⁓ So thank you for taking us on that journey and inviting so many people into it. I hope lots of people buy your book. ⁓ What do you hope people take away from reading this book?
Tim Hutchinson: I hope that that ⁓ that readers walk away with a sense that a life doesn't have to be perfect for it to be meaningful and that grace can meet you in places that you absolutely never expected. I hope that that that they see civility, that they see character, they see that second chances are real and they can change the trajectory of a life. ⁓ And maybe most of all I hope that they see the story of America. ⁓ America at its best, the story of ordinary people ⁓ trying to do the right thing and and ⁓ stumbling sometimes or getting back up and and carrying their values and their principles and their Christianity with them. And if someone closes the book and they say, Maybe maybe my story matters too, then I think ⁓ It will have I will have accomplished my purpose.
Todd Deatherage: That's great. I love that. That's really wonderful. Any any other ⁓ any other chapter you wanna highlight, any other part of the book or ⁓ any other story?
Tim Hutchinson: Well, this has been so much fun, Todd. I'm grateful that you take time to visit with me about it. And I hope folks will if they're interested, if it sounds interesting to them and more than interesting, ⁓ if they think that there's a lesson that would be worthwhile for them, check it out and ⁓ and I hope they enjoy it.
Todd Deatherage: No, or order it now. Pre orders matter. If it if you're getting from Amazon, the pre-orders actually matter. So go ahead and order it now and go ahead and order two because you're gonna want to give one away to somebody else. So put a couple of those orders in now. And if you if you ⁓ like to use independent bookstores, which I think is also a great idea, go to a small business owner, s an independent bookstore and get it there. That's actually even better than than Amazon. So ⁓ yes, please get the book. It's it's a great read. And thank you for taking the time to write it. ⁓ again.
Tim Hutchinson: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Todd Deatherage: There's some of us who worked for you who for a long time were encouraging you to do this. ⁓ and so I'm really glad that it finally happened. So thank you. I'm glad it's getting out into the world. All right.
Tim Hutchinson: Thanks, Todd.
