She Wrote Her Own Eulogy - Windrush 75

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Welcome to this podcast series
asking the question Can art save
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us? I'm starting the first
national and international
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conversation about courage and
curiosity. What do these
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qualities really mean? And why
does it make a big difference to
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our mental, societal and
democratic health? I talk to
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award winning and diverse
artists across the arts to
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explore these qualities in their
lives and work, both to inspire
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and for us all to learn. I'm
exploring why we need these
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qualities to help change the
global epidemic of mental
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illness, loneliness,
polarization of our communities,
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and even global conflicts. If
the arts cultivate courage and
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curiosity, I'm asking the
question Can art save us? And my
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guest today is Shirley May, a
highly acclaimed poet, writer,
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CEO and Artistic Director of
Young Identity, Manchester's
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premier spoken word collective
here in the UK. In 2006, Shirley
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founded the Inner Voice, a
voluntary Youth Arts Project,
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and 16 dedicated years later,
this has become Young Identity
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a literature and performance arts
charity, experimenting in
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combined arts. Now in 2023, Young
Identity has the prestigious
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status of being a national
portfolio organisation with the
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UK Arts Council. In other words,
Young Identity is recognized as
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a leader both in their field
and in our collective national
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arts. Shirley is an Honorary
Fellow of the Royal Society of
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Literature. And her work is
described as "blazing with
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emotion, challenging all the
senses." She documents pain and
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pride in the experience of
migration, her Jamaican heritage
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and African history. She
understands how to cultivate
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voice and working with
marginalized youth, she develops
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their "risk of excellence." Hello,
Shirley, and a very warm welcome
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to Can Art Save Us?
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Hi, Paula, it's nice to be with
you today.
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I'm so pleased. Well, thank you
again for making the time. All
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sorts of things to talk about.
And I thought a starting place
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Shirley might be something I
learned from you when we were
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both at the recent Going Places
conference at Cambridge
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University, which was exploring
the work of poetry and spoken
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word artists. And that is, the
word came first. And that really
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stood out to me, because my
Biblical education, if you like,
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was very much about God created
heaven and the earth. But of
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course, there are other
translations and one being the
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King James Version, saying, in
the beginning was the Word. And
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this is something I've only just
learned from you. And I wondered
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if you'd like to talk around
that a bit more.
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Yeah, I suppose for me, the word
is really important. And it
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features a lot when I am writing
anything on my Instagram or
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Twitter, you know, that we wake
up with the word, Good morning,
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we wake up with the word, or go
to bed with the word good night.
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And it all begins with the
voice. And then language
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happens. And then also,
linguistics, all all the stuff
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around learning to write and
calligraphy, then happens after
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the word. You know, the learning
process comes much, much later
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on, you learn the word. At the
moment, we're teaching my
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granddaughter how to speak. And
then and that's what comes
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first. You know, and so for me,
in terms of using it through
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poetry, as a narrative, the word
the word for me means that it's
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embedded in you. The poetry is
embedded, you knew the stories
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are embedded in you. You're a
part of the story. I learned
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recently, that when a mother
becomes pregnant, that her cells
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start to change, that the
baby cells also impact the
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mother cells. And if the mother
is unwell, the baby cells comes
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and protects the parent. And I
thought, wow, how, how we are
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intertwined as human beings,
when we're giving birth when
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we're when we're speaking. And
when we're talking and it all
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begins with the word. That's
where it comes from for me, and
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it's not necessarily around
biblical stories. It was just
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that as I've worked with so many
poets over the years, I've seen
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different people deliver the
word in different ways.
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Yeah, I mean, what a
fascinating revelation. I hadn't
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come across that at all about
the cells between mother
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and baby during pregnancy. But
it is really interesting, this
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emphasis on the word and what
stood out to me was, just by
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having that emphasis on the word
was first, it kind of helped
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build the gravitas, if you like
in terms of the defense against
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spoken word, being somehow less
acknowledged than the written
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word or page poetry, for
example. Would you say that's
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where that emphasis is useful?
That the word, the word was
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first?
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I think most definitely. Because
there is this kind of snobbery
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around, you know, it's the way
it's constructed on the page.
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And that somehow speaking a poem
or performing a poem has a
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lesser value. I mean, I think
it's less now than when I first
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started writing, where it became
a thing that you needed to
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understand what form was all
about. And at young identity,
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it's one of the things that we
teach. So we teach the sonnet,
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the cinquain, the Haiku all of
the forms that have been
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created. And we also encourage
our young people to create
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forms, but the word does come
first, that first connection
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between mother and child, that
first connection between
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father and child, I think that
it all starts with that, the
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pouring out of love, the
questioning, the the answering.
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And so for me, in terms of
poetry, and poetry, being
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underpinned by the voice, the
voice, and the cadence that
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someone speaks. And, and in many
way, great preachers actually do
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use the voice as a means to be
emotive and to draw people in,
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via the word by whether whether
or not it's the Koran, or the
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Bible, or the Torah, or the some
other holy book, The poetry
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within those pages, is often
about drawing people into a
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better and greater understanding
of something that is spiritual,
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that starts with the voice and
starts with the word.
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Yeah, and this is really
interesting, because I wondered
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whether poetry is a spiritual
relationship for you, because I
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understand you were 35, when
poetry became an active part of
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your life, and you've said, you
woke up with a poem in your
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mouth. And I have those lines of
that poetry here. And unless this
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is embedded on your own your own
mind, I can quote it, I can
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quote those lines, if you like?
Yes, quote it, quote it.
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Because I love this idea that
you woke up with a poem in your
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mouth, and I'll quote you. "The
heart is the organ that
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encounters pain, the place that
always peace should reign. It's
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the place that makes the father
stand up to provide and a mother
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hearing a distant child's cry,
the heart is the organ that
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encounters pain, the place where
always peace should reign." And
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you said, you've never finished
it. But of course, you've never
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stopped writing since.
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That's right. And for me, when I
say is never finished, I suppose
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it is, it is finished, because
that's where it ended. You know,
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that's what I woke up with. I've
never felt like it needed to be
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elongated, or anything else
added to that. But that's what I
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woke up with. And that's what
sparked me into writing other
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things, and whether or not the
very serious things about, you
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know, the current situation in
in, in Ukraine or whether or not
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it's something more personal.
The word has become a part and
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parcel of who I am. Yeah, and I
think that I never knew that I
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was going to work up at 35 and
start writing it was something
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that I tried to avoid as a
child. I think I mentioned at
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the conference, that I was
extremely dyslexic. I didn't
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really start reading properly
until I was 11 and 12. And, you
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know, it was on the having a
good teacher that recognize that
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something wasn't quite right.
But at the same time, you know,
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being intelligent and being able
to articulate myself was
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something that I was always able
to do. But when it came to
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reading something, I always
stumbled over the words and it
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wasn't something that I, I ran
after, after, in fact, I became
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more creative thing. You know,
I'm a painter, I make, I make
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things, you know, I am a
clothing designer. That's how I
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started off at Manchester
Metropolitan University. So I
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went down the route of creating
with my hands so that I didn't
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have to do anything that
actually, I had a lot of reading
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to do. And so it's really funny
that, you know, I've just had a
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set of bookshelves built in my
home, for the hundreds of
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hundreds of books that are in
bags everywhere. And the bulk of
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what I've purchased and bought
over the years is poetry. You
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know, you know, and I love
poetry. My daughter always says
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to me, I live and breathe it.
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There was a lovely phrase
where you said, "poetry is like
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an occupying army in my life."
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Absolutely, absolutely. You
know, and that's not just about
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the poetry but about the young
people who, who I worked with
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who I encouraged to write, and
not necessarily stay with
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poetry, because not every single
person is a poet. They're, you
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know, you know, at the heart of
writing is prose, and all
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different kinds of writing,
academic writing, there's all
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sorts that you can go down and
delve into as writers. My
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springboard is poetry. I love to
share that with young people. I
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love to see young people open up
and discover language and words
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for themselves and to create to
create stories from the language
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that is actually inside of them.
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Yeah, and just prior to
understanding more of that work
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your role as a as a mentor,
educator, working with the
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Young Identity poets, I'm
interested in your own formative
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experience at school. And
perhaps that struggle, if you
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like, with, with dyslexia,
because I wonder how that feeds
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into your work with Young
Identity today, because you will
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have been experiencing, perhaps
feeling othered by some of the
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confusion that maybe dyslexia
was creating for you, or even
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classist or racist undertones
that that may have been within
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the education system at that
time.
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For me, in terms of my, the
neuro-diverse elements of who I
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am it was never an issue at
school because I was a gobby
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get, I always had something to say.
And I think that when you're
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quite outspoken, and I remember
a teacher from MMU that lived
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near me, and I used to love to
go to her house, she had a color
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television, and we didn't have
one. And she also had a library
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in her house. And she had so
many books, as a child, I would
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just sort of like, pick them up,
put them back down. And she she
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did an IQ test with me as part
of a project that she was doing.
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And then I came out of high
scoring high functioning in that
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high IQ test. And yet when I
came to pick up something to
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read, I struggled. Now I think I
was able to disguise a lot of it
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because I would always be that
kid that was going to the toilet
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the minute the teacher went,
right, it's your turn to read. I
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would always have an excuse or
be disruptive because I didn't
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want to stumble over the words
of something that I felt that I
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knew. I love storytelling. I
used to have a teacher that was
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called Mrs Doody and she was my
junior school teacher. And she
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read to me Alice in Wonderland.
Charlie and the Chocolate
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Factory. And we she just read
these amazing stories and we'd
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take trips through so it was always,
I was being fed stories and I
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was fascinated by the stories
that I was being fed through
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music, the oprah, the the very
popular, I want to say the name,
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but I can't... something cart
orchestra. I can't say the word.
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Anyway. She was just this
amazing teacher that made books
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come alive and I could not wait
to listen. And so as a child, I
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used to listen to stories.
Jackanory, that was on TV. I
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don't feel like my race was,
anyway, in my school life, I
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think when I first moved to the
area that I lived in, people
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noticed who I was, because it
was a predominantly white area,
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my mother moved from mosside, to
Wilmington. And when I moved
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there, it was a predominantly
white area. And for a few weeks,
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I was seen as being black, but
not by the schools, I never
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felt. I never felt
disenfranchised. I don't think
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at school. Maybe later on, as I
got older, I thought about my
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school experience in Merseyside,
but not in Wilmington, as being
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Oh, you can go to the domestic
area, it used to be called a
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Wendy Corner. And I felt like I
spent an awful lot of time
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pretending to iron and wash up
and clean up in that corner. But
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when I went to Wilmington, and
experienced this teacher, she
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tried to pull out the very best
image she you know, like I said,
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it was at school that it was
recognized by her by another
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teacher, in my high school, and
later on, actually even in my
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college. So there were always
people who recognize that there
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was something that wasn't there
was this intelligent person able
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to articulate themselves but not
able to write anything down? And
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yeah, it became a thing for a
little while, but then it
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didn't.
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It's amazing, isn't it that the
life chances that were dealt so
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when you say I could have spent
a lot of time as a child
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pretending to iron and clean up
such as was sexist education,
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agenda defined play? That along
comes a teacher that actually
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completely changes that emphasis
and introduces you to books and
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opera. It's such a significant
moment, isn't it in the life
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chances that we are dealt?
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Absolutely. If I hadn't had
Alice in Wonderland, read to me
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and Charlie and the Chocolate
Factory, and the new books
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that this particular teacher
just read to us. And she read
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them quickly as well, you know,
so we were eager for the next
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one that she was going to read.
And she just planted the seeds
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of stories into my life. And I
think that when I got to high
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school, and the first poem that
really kind of resonated with me
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was we were doing more poems,
and we did Wilfred Owen's,
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the Quran of Patreon,
you know, I never forgot it.
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And it was, you know, it was
that poem that was like that we
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are fodder we are cannon fodder
for a war that we're nothing
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to do with, you know, and
I love that poem, and it just
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spoke to my spirit. And then we
go back to the word, the word
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speaking something to you. I
think I read that poem when I
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was about 13. You know, when
you're moving into what's it
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called annotating, annotating
poetry. And I just loved Wilfred
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Owen's work. And so I started to
seek out things that sounded
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like his work, as well. So yeah,
as a poet, there has been many
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people who have influenced me,
and I think that probably
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hearing the Wilfred Owen's poem,
and then learning the learning
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of it by rote, as you did back
then, and then discovering Maya
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Angelou, as an adult was just
amazing. I am a woman,
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phenomenally phenomenal woman.
That's me, how wonderful. She
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spoke to my spirit again, and
Still I Rise and, you know, up
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through the annals of slavery, I
rise, I rise, I rise. Really
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poignant things touching on
things like class and racism and
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prejudice, but saying that you
don't have to be bound by those
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things. And you can rise out of
those things into become
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something quite, quite unique
and quite different. That's how
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my is poetry spoke to me.
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Yeah, and it is very
interesting the relationship
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poetry can have and often with
people in times of trauma, where
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there's almost a call for a
deeper spiritual connection to
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understand their lives, and I
read that you've you've spoken
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about this before. And you've
noted people don't necessarily
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intend for what you called
spiritual exuberance to underpin
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the poetry, but nevertheless a
spiritual experience can be
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gained through connecting with
words.
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When I first started writing, I
was... an Adventist, not an
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Adventist, why am I saying that,
I would say that I was a staunch
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Born Again Christian. And I
remember writing quite a lot of
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poetry that felt quite
religious. But I would see the
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audience turn off, though, Oh,
somebody's preaching at me here
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through their poetry, you know,
you should you must be saved,
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you must be this, you must be
that assume learn that if I was
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going to express myself as a
poet, that wasn't necessarily
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the way that I ought to do it.
So I would say that my
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spirituality within my work
comes from the work itself,
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rather than me trying to
evangelize an audience. I don't
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really go to church anymore, or
anything like that. It doesn't
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mean to say that I'm not a woman
of faith, I will still say that
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the very things that I was
taught as a child still underpin
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who I am. But I'm, I wouldn't
say that I was a banger on my
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drum now going, you must, you
must, you must. So, you know,
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I'm trying to think of a poem
now that I comes from my mom.
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She used to say that that
Massa holds the handle, and you
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hold the blade, and I went, what
does that mean? I don't
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understand. I'm a first
generation, didn't grow up in the
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Caribbean, but had Caribbean
parents that were bringing some
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of what they'd seen as injustices
here in the UK, and even back
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home, you know, because they
were economic migrants that made
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them come to the UK. And she
would say, always, Massa holds
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the handle, and you hold the
blame. And I wrote a poem that
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goes, "The boy had dreams of
orange songs and darker days, he
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laughs at the light that's in
your eye. Because as sure as
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death, he knows it will fade
away. In the morning of the
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Midnight dream and the dawning
of a new day. His laughter is
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like a whip on the back, because
he knows that Massa holds the
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00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:19,560
handle, and he holds the blade,
and his blood will fall like
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crimson rain. My mother said,
Life is too short to sit around,
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00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:28,080
hoping it will change for you
will be like a memory that
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00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,700
fades, crushed on the foot, like
the autumn leaves discarded by
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00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:37,890
the seasons change. So Sister,
you need to get up and seize the
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00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:43,050
dawning of every new day, the
boy had dreams of orange suns,
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and lived in darker days." Yeah,
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that's beautiful. You know, but
coming from terrible
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legacies. But but a beautiful
reflection. And and I'm also
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thinking beautiful, because your
work has really shown itself to
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00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:11,250
be a lovely and important
testimony to memories, and to
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00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:18,030
advice, and especially from your
mother. And of course, your
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00:23:18,030 --> 00:23:26,820
book, She Wrote Her Own Eulogy,
it seems to be an absolute
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gift, really, to everything your
mother passed down to you, or
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wisdoms she shared and I
wondered if you'd like to talk a
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00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:41,550
bit more about that it feels
very much like a testament to
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your mom.
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I would say that the book
is in three parts. I will say
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that the book is a testimony to
her it was written because she
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00:23:52,590 --> 00:24:00,360
was 100 in 2018, she would have
been 100 years of age. And it
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00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:05,400
highlights her life in in
Moss Side. So from from the
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00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:09,810
Caribbean to Moss Side and has a
lot of different people in that
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00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:14,070
section of the book. And then in
the final section its my
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learning, I always say to my
children, what is your learning,
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you know, when something has
happened to them? Or, you know,
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00:24:22,590 --> 00:24:24,900
how are you going to do
something different because
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you've learned something from
that situation? And so the book
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the book is, I would say
is a three part book but again,
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I suppose you could call it's a
three part being you know, you
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know, it's about life, it's
about flesh and it's about
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00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:49,290
death. You know, it's called She
Wrote Her Own Eulogy. But within
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00:24:49,290 --> 00:24:54,330
that pages of it is also about
what my mother taught me on how
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to survive so that I get old
like she did you know, I always
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00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:04,950
laugh with my children and say
my mother got to 60 and all she
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00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:08,970
talked about was death. And then
she didn't die until she was 85.
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00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:17,340
And so it's, it's this constant
reminder that actually her
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00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:22,650
teaching was a tool to survive
in what sometimes can be hostile
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00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:26,100
terrain. Now, this morning, I've
just found out that somebody
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that as a part of the founding
movement of Black Lives Matter,
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00:25:34,110 --> 00:25:38,340
a cousin has been killed, but
while being arrested, and so the
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teachings within my mother's
book is about surviving that,
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and also not holding on to those
types of trauma that don't allow
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you to move forward, you know,
but to leave them once they are
334
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written out of me to leave them
where they are, you know,
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sometimes I don't read some of
the poetry. There's a one poem
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00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:06,120
in the book that I don't read at
all, when I perform, because
337
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:13,530
it's so traumatic. And, you
know, it's about rape, and it's
338
00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:18,330
the results of that. And,
but it's a poem that I don't
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00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:24,000
read, but felt that I needed to
write. Because so often, we
340
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don't talk about these things,
we hide them away. And, and no
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00:26:30,540 --> 00:26:33,690
one knows that they've been a
part of your history, you know,
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00:26:33,690 --> 00:26:38,070
they've been a part of your
trauma. But how do you overcome?
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How do you stand in something
that is really terrible, you
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know, and so, and then there are
all the poems in the book that I
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00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:54,750
love this one that's dedicated
to my godmother, whom was a
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00:26:54,750 --> 00:27:02,730
hermaphrodite and it's all about
her. It was about her death, her
347
00:27:02,730 --> 00:27:08,010
untimely death in the way that
actually, the hospitals did not
348
00:27:08,010 --> 00:27:12,060
take care of me, who was taking
care of her when delivering bad
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00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:18,510
news that she had cancer. And,
but the story is about life and
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love and honor. You know? Yeah,
sorry, I've gone on a bit.
351
00:27:24,390 --> 00:27:28,020
No, not at all. No, there, there
is nothing that will be in
352
00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:31,260
excess, in terms of what you're
sharing. I mean, these are
353
00:27:31,260 --> 00:27:37,980
really significant histories and
legacies. And, and actually, for
354
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:44,010
the listeners benefit, I'll just
share a review of your book. She
355
00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:47,970
Wrote Her Own Eulogy. And this
is a review by Sue Roberts, a
356
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:53,490
BBC producer, who describes your
work as "blazing with emotion,
357
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,690
challenging all the senses, this
life affirming collection
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00:27:57,690 --> 00:28:02,100
demands to be read, charting a
journey from Jamaica, these
359
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:07,440
beautifully crafted poems offer
a fresh, detailed insights into
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00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,240
the experience of migration." I
imagine Shirley that means you
361
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:18,630
have lots to say, and lots of
very important detail to share
362
00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:22,770
that reflects on humanity and
life experience.
363
00:28:24,030 --> 00:28:29,610
I feel that it's really
important that things happen to
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us in life. And some of them are
beautiful things, and some of
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00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:40,950
them are tragic things. And
sometimes we ourselves can be
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00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:45,510
encompassed in things that are
tragic and ugly and horrid. But
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00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:53,430
how do we, how do we heal? How
do we grow? How do we take even
368
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:57,480
sometimes mistakes that we might
have made as a young person and
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00:28:57,510 --> 00:29:02,760
make that different? You know,
for somebody else who's coming
370
00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:08,490
up behind to my experience that
so writing that poem, about my
371
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:13,170
grandmother's experience was
really important for the women
372
00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:17,490
in my family. And there are a
lot of strong women in our
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00:29:17,490 --> 00:29:21,930
family that have experienced
terrible trauma. And if there
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00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:25,770
isn't any of the pages in the
books that also say there is
375
00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:31,530
light, there is there is change.
You know, one of the one of the
376
00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:34,860
poems that makes me laugh is you
know, it talks about how
377
00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:40,380
sometimes we're attracted to bad
men, you know, and it's quite
378
00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:42,960
funny. You know, some of your
short poems, I can't even
379
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,450
remember it off the top of my
head, but it said that some of
380
00:29:45,450 --> 00:29:50,010
us love to take love to a
bad man's bed, something like
381
00:29:50,010 --> 00:29:55,350
that. And so the poetry
book is about navigating a life
382
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:58,650
that is difficult and the poetry
that I write is also about
383
00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:04,170
navigating life. That's
difficult. And, yeah, recently,
384
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:09,660
I was asked to write a poem that
I absolutely loved the challenge
385
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:13,920
and of it was for an organization
that's called The World
386
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,730
Reimagined. And they've been
looking at transatlantic,
387
00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:22,110
transatlantic slave trade. And
they asked and challenged
388
00:30:22,110 --> 00:30:27,930
writers to think about how they
would tell the stories of the
389
00:30:27,930 --> 00:30:33,270
people who have traveled to the
UK, the people who experienced
390
00:30:33,270 --> 00:30:39,930
slavery, but also pre slavery.
And so that's the poem that I
391
00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:44,250
grabbed on to rather than, that's
the story that I grabbed on to
392
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:53,160
so I wrote from the point of
view of Mansa Musa and I wrote a
393
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
poem and I'll read a small
portion of it and it's called
394
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:04,770
Where Kings Live. Then it goes.
"Emperor pilgrim seeker,
395
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,930
benevolent gift giver guide,
history maker, romantic
396
00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:15,330
Stargazer, under serious
celestial skies, architects of
397
00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:21,480
wisdom, a propagator, Egypt's
economy breaker, Monarch of Mali
398
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,990
Caravan leader.. keeper, great
man of power and prestige,
399
00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:32,760
journey through the Sahara
Desert. Destination Mecca's
400
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:39,690
Kaaba, goal depositor, royalty,
famed ruler, Nubian king
401
00:31:39,690 --> 00:31:44,040
cartographer amongst this
cartedge tens of thousands,
402
00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:49,800
infrastructure developer,
university creator from Senegal
403
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,380
to timber to economy maker,
sovereign antiquity builder,
404
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:01,440
salt and gold miner, Legacy
creator father of the people,
405
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:07,860
quest of divinity, richest man
in history, Mansa Musa." And then
406
00:32:07,860 --> 00:32:12,660
it goes on to talk about the
Imperial experience of
407
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:18,900
colonialism, and then ends on
him being this wonderful king
408
00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:21,510
created.
409
00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:26,700
Yeah, wow, thank you very much
for reading is fantastic
410
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:31,620
to hear more of your work,
because that really is an
411
00:32:31,620 --> 00:32:37,890
example, isn't it of dignity,
and status and stories that
412
00:32:37,890 --> 00:32:45,180
perhaps we don't hear enough of,
particularly as you refer to,
413
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:50,250
when we have an education system
that's in the context of
414
00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:51,870
colonial history?
415
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:55,110
That's right. And that's why
this book is one of the
416
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:59,820
most important books that I
think has come out in in 2022.
417
00:33:00,810 --> 00:33:05,370
And it's just a poetic journey
of actually, these experiences,
418
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,270
it was a part of, you know, I
don't know if you heard about
419
00:33:09,270 --> 00:33:12,000
it, but there were all these
globes, that were commissioned
420
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,550
by artists to create stories and
tell stories. And then we were
421
00:33:17,550 --> 00:33:21,660
asked as poets to respond to the
globes, or to respond to the
422
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:25,320
same themes through poetry. And
I think it's really important
423
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,420
that a story that is a hidden
history is also now being told.
424
00:33:30,540 --> 00:33:36,180
So that actually, you know, with
the our commonality, as humans
425
00:33:36,450 --> 00:33:44,520
are, is more than just skin
deep. You know, and we have a
426
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,790
joint history, some of it not
nice and some of it extremely
427
00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:51,930
beautiful, you know, and it's
about bringing out the beauty as
428
00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:53,430
well as the ugliness
429
00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:57,360
Yeah, absolutely. And I saw
photographs actually of the of
430
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,070
the globes you described. And it
was it was really impressive.
431
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:06,420
And it was also really welcome
to have such a different
432
00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:12,660
perspective on histories.
Clearly, not just a colonial
433
00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:13,680
perspective.
434
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,930
Exactly. And that's why I chose
that particular King Mansa Musa,
435
00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:22,890
because he was the richest man
in in in the world. I think he
436
00:34:22,890 --> 00:34:27,720
was born 1220 1212 I can't
remember the date. I've got it
437
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:30,480
written down somewhere in my
research notes, but I know it's
438
00:34:30,870 --> 00:34:36,060
in the 12th century is that
439
00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:39,810
right? Is it the 12th or
is it 13? Anyway
440
00:34:41,519 --> 00:34:42,509
a long time ago.
441
00:34:45,180 --> 00:34:50,160
And they made a comparison
recently to Elon Musk, and his
442
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,110
wealth, and they said that his
wealth outstripped Elon Musk's
443
00:34:55,710 --> 00:35:00,360
trivia, but I just thought, here
we are. This is a black man on,
444
00:35:00,510 --> 00:35:03,420
who was the wealthiest man in
the world, and lots of black
445
00:35:03,420 --> 00:35:06,810
children don't even know that,
you know, what's pushed down
446
00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:13,620
their throats is poverty and
deprivation, challenging,
447
00:35:13,890 --> 00:35:17,670
challenging, told that they've
got challenging behavior, all of
448
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:21,060
those kinds of things. And part
of what Young Identity is about
449
00:35:21,210 --> 00:35:26,070
is to say, actually, your voice
is your weapon. And your voice
450
00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:31,800
is also where you can speak out
your truths. And to say, not
451
00:35:31,830 --> 00:35:37,050
allow your word to be muted. So
one of the things that we say to
452
00:35:37,050 --> 00:35:45,270
Young Identity is that we don't
really, what's the word, we don't
453
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:50,970
really censor. So there may be
politics that you particularly
454
00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:56,250
stand in that I absolutely
disagree with. But I'm not going
455
00:35:56,250 --> 00:35:59,520
to mute you. But I will
challenge you, as you write that
456
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,930
stuff, to write it to the best
of its ability, but you will be
457
00:36:03,930 --> 00:36:08,550
challenged by others because of
what you've written. But it's
458
00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:15,210
okay to have a voice and to say
what you're saying. Yeah, so I
459
00:36:15,210 --> 00:36:19,440
can be controversial in that
way, that I try not to influence
460
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,860
people by saying, You must not
write that you cannot write that
461
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:28,980
I remember, a poet that's was a
part of Inner Voice, a poem
462
00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:33,120
called Touching You All. And he
came from an an atheist
463
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,590
background. And he picked a
photograph to draw his
464
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:42,030
inspiration to write from, and
it looked like the Madonna and
465
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:46,020
child. And he wrote this poem,
and it was, for me as a
466
00:36:46,020 --> 00:36:50,790
Christian at the time, quite
blasphemous. And, and he read
467
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:53,490
it, and he was like, looking at
me to see what I would say, and
468
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:58,110
I went, this is well crafted.
This is a good poem. This is
469
00:36:58,110 --> 00:37:01,740
excellent. I don't agree with
any of the sentiment of it. But
470
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:06,090
however, I can see what you were
trying to do. And if you were to
471
00:37:06,090 --> 00:37:08,880
take that into script writing,
or you were describing a
472
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,920
character, or it was a villain
in a piece, that'd be a great
473
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:14,760
piece of writing.
474
00:37:15,870 --> 00:37:21,390
Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting.
Everything you're saying and the
475
00:37:21,390 --> 00:37:27,510
approach that you take at Young
Identity, because it also is
476
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:30,900
very courageous. I don't know if
you agree with that statement.
477
00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:33,780
But for example, it's a
challenge to yourself, for
478
00:37:33,780 --> 00:37:36,780
example, you're not in the
business of censorship, with
479
00:37:36,780 --> 00:37:40,560
things that you disagree with,
but you have the courage to
480
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:47,310
still encourage those young
poets to exercise their right to
481
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:55,350
have a voice. Absolutely. And,
and also, as you went on to say,
482
00:37:55,980 --> 00:38:02,970
to recognize that, in fact, a
major risk that young people
483
00:38:02,970 --> 00:38:08,640
face, and that stands outside of
perhaps stereotypical
484
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:12,570
associations of what risk is, is
excellence.
485
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:17,670
That's right. That's absolutely
right. You know, I say, in one
486
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:21,870
of my statements, and we used to
have it up on our website, give
487
00:38:21,870 --> 00:38:25,260
me some money for those young
people who are at risk of being
488
00:38:25,290 --> 00:38:30,330
excellent, rather than actually
giving me money because you want
489
00:38:30,330 --> 00:38:33,060
me to stop gun crime, or you
want me to stop teenage
490
00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:38,520
pregnancy. All of those things,
I hope that my project and the
491
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,830
work that we the charity, I
should say, does, is about
492
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:48,270
supporting people to make better
choices, but allowing them to
493
00:38:48,270 --> 00:38:53,670
find and discover those choices
for themselves. Whether it be
494
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:57,150
that, you know, you end up with
somebody who, you know, I don't
495
00:38:57,150 --> 00:39:03,330
know, becomes an offender on or
not, though they were given
496
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,160
routes to make the right choices
for themselves. So in the end,
497
00:39:08,340 --> 00:39:12,660
even as young people, we have to
be accountable to ourselves for
498
00:39:12,660 --> 00:39:17,160
the things that we say that the
way that we behave and and who
499
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,630
we are as individuals in a
society where there are rules
500
00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:27,210
and there are regulations that
you need to follow. But we start
501
00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:32,280
with the premises of where those
young people are at. And hope
502
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,790
that actually another saying
that my mother had is iron
503
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,630
sharpens iron. And I used to
think What's she talking about?
504
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:44,880
Because my mom uses sharps and
she was a chef. And she used as
505
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,120
well as being a nanny she ended
up owning one of the first
506
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:53,970
Caribbean food places in in
Moss Side in her house, where she
507
00:39:53,970 --> 00:39:57,330
rented rooms and she used to
have a stone that
508
00:39:57,330 --> 00:40:02,220
sharpens the knife,
Flintstone to sharpen the knife.
509
00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:05,250
And I was like, but but you've
just said iron sharpens iron
510
00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:09,360
that's stone. And then she showed
me within the stone, that there
511
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,400
was metal. And that it was the
metal within the stone that was
512
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,930
actually sharpening the knife,
the iron sharpens iron. And so
513
00:40:18,930 --> 00:40:22,230
therefore, when those young
people are together, as writers
514
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:25,170
and as poets, they are
influencing one another.
515
00:40:26,370 --> 00:40:30,150
changing perspectives, we've had
people who never voted that
516
00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:34,290
after being in a writing
session, registered to vote.
517
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:40,530
You know, so it's about how we
work with what we have got at
518
00:40:40,530 --> 00:40:43,350
the point of when those young
people come to us, but who they
519
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:46,740
are, when they leave, is
completely different people and
520
00:40:46,740 --> 00:40:51,180
different writers, with all
individual voices. Yeah, I
521
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:56,400
love this, because it's such
significant work, and you've
522
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:02,850
made such a fantastic dedication
with your own life, you know,
523
00:41:02,850 --> 00:41:07,890
to, to establish Young Identity.
So successfully, you know, as I
524
00:41:07,890 --> 00:41:10,920
said, in the introduction, you
know, 16 years of dedication to
525
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,190
get it to this point. And what
you're really highlighting, I
526
00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:20,100
think, is something that's
really revolutionary, in the
527
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:24,360
most positive sense. You know,
you previously mentioned the
528
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,200
idea of a weapon, and I'm
interested in poetry as a as a
529
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,180
cultural weapon in terms of its,
again, it's the right to have a
530
00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:38,670
voice and surely the power of
change comes with the word it
531
00:41:38,670 --> 00:41:43,830
comes back to the word is first.
The word is first. Because it's
532
00:41:43,830 --> 00:41:47,760
about self expression. It's
about how we think and how we
533
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,650
broaden our thinking that we
don't just fall into stereotypes
534
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:56,640
and ritualistic thinking,
because, as you say, raising
535
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,490
money for example, for for
campaigns, it could be a
536
00:41:59,490 --> 00:42:02,910
campaign against knife crime.
That's one thing, but surely
537
00:42:02,910 --> 00:42:06,330
change is deeper than that. And
the word is first,
538
00:42:06,660 --> 00:42:09,510
and the word is first. And
that's, you know, and that's
539
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:12,480
where, you know, Nicole, who was
going to be interviewed today,
540
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,130
as well comes in, because she's
been a principal person behind
541
00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:22,560
us becoming national portfolio,
she drove that. Because, you
542
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,050
know, I was like, I don't know
if I want to be a national
543
00:42:25,050 --> 00:42:29,040
portfolio. And she was like, but
it's where we ought to be with
544
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,090
the work that we've done so far.
And so and she came up through
545
00:42:33,090 --> 00:42:37,830
the same program, she was in, in
a voice and the founding member
546
00:42:38,130 --> 00:42:43,260
of the organization, the charity
is run, predominantly by family
547
00:42:43,260 --> 00:42:49,020
members. My Board of Trustees is
no member of my family. You
548
00:42:49,020 --> 00:42:51,840
know, so the scrutiny comes
through the Board of Trustees.
549
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:56,430
But actually, we started off as
a family, because we believed
550
00:42:56,460 --> 00:43:00,750
and they believed in, in me as a
writer, that you know, that my
551
00:43:00,750 --> 00:43:03,660
voice was important. And the
work that we were doing was
552
00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:08,640
important as well. So it's been
wonderful. Watching the changes
553
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,750
happen, not only in the lives of
the poets who work with us and
554
00:43:12,750 --> 00:43:18,270
work for us and work with us,
but also the impact that we've
555
00:43:18,270 --> 00:43:20,730
actually had on the city that is
Manchester.
556
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,670
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's
lovely, this relationship
557
00:43:26,670 --> 00:43:30,750
between you and your daughter,
Nicole, sharing this space and
558
00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:35,910
sharing poetry because, you
know, we've been talking about
559
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:38,460
the wisdoms of your mother. And
then of course, there's the
560
00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:41,730
wisdom that you pass down as a
mother and of course, Nicole
561
00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:45,510
herself is a young mum now, you
know, there's this lovely, yeah,
562
00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:50,640
there's this lovely lineage of
wisdoms. And actually, in your
563
00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:59,280
prior reading, you mentioned
cartography, and there's a poem
564
00:43:59,310 --> 00:44:04,620
that you've dedicated to Nicole
and Alexander May, and it's
565
00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:08,520
titled, You must become a cartographer?
566
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,050
Would you like to talk about
that?
567
00:44:11,250 --> 00:44:14,760
Yeah, actually, you wouldn't
believe it. It was commissioned
568
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:22,500
by Nationwide. And it didn't
make an advertisement. And they
569
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:31,320
wanted me to talk about passing
on passing on your inheritance
570
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,890
to your children, but not
blatantly saying, Oh, go buy your
571
00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:40,590
house. And so, for me, it became
about actually what would I what
572
00:44:40,590 --> 00:44:46,170
would I want to pass on to my
two children, my son, who's my
573
00:44:46,170 --> 00:44:50,700
oldest child and my youngest
child, and it was about actually
574
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:53,580
all of these things are
important. You know, you know,
575
00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:57,150
having a home having having
but your home, is your family.
576
00:44:58,470 --> 00:45:04,710
And also don't be afraid of
experiencing the world in a way
577
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:11,070
that is not in the micro, but in
the, in the wider sense of
578
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:15,810
actually go and be a discoverer
within your own life and make a
579
00:45:15,810 --> 00:45:19,530
map so that there is a so that
there is a lineage and an
580
00:45:19,530 --> 00:45:23,310
inheritance for your children to
come that you were actually
581
00:45:23,310 --> 00:45:26,970
mapmakers as well, as you know,
you lived it, you lived in a
582
00:45:26,970 --> 00:45:31,170
little corner of Old Trafford in
Manchester. But actually, you
583
00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:35,160
belong to a global world. So
even with Young Identity, we
584
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:40,740
write from a local, a personal,
local global perspective. So
585
00:45:40,740 --> 00:45:44,310
that poem encompasses all of
that. They should have used it.
586
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:49,470
Of course, they should talk
about miss a trick, my word, my
587
00:45:49,470 --> 00:45:56,970
word transformative. Would you
say that becoming a map maker
588
00:45:57,390 --> 00:45:59,970
you know, whether you're talking
about the wisdom you pass on to
589
00:45:59,970 --> 00:46:03,450
your own children, but also,
through the mentoring you do
590
00:46:03,690 --> 00:46:10,590
at Young Identity is the same as
instilling the courage to be
591
00:46:10,650 --> 00:46:12,330
your own map maker?
592
00:46:12,810 --> 00:46:17,550
Absolutely. One of the things
that we try to encourage at
593
00:46:17,550 --> 00:46:23,220
Young Identity is to become
writers who are not just
594
00:46:23,220 --> 00:46:28,230
writing, and I'll say it, you
know, copying the work of dead
595
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:34,170
white men, you know, but how do
you write your own poetry, and
596
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,710
in a way that you are
formulating it yourself, you
597
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:40,800
know, creating your own form.
And that's one of the things
598
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,850
that I have really pushed with
Young Identity is that we must
599
00:46:44,850 --> 00:46:52,260
know form to break from, and I
always remember going to, we went
600
00:46:52,260 --> 00:46:57,090
to a place in
in Spain, and we went off on a
601
00:46:57,090 --> 00:47:02,700
train journey to Pablo Picasso's
house. I can't remember where it
602
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:06,960
was, it was in I think it was I
can't remember which city it was
603
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,070
in, but it was, it was about
an hour's drive, or an hour's
604
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:15,120
train ride away. And we went to
Picasso's house and you walk
605
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,920
in and you see that Picasso is
a draftsman, he can make you
606
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,650
look exactly like yourself. He
is, you know, there's pictures
607
00:47:25,650 --> 00:47:31,320
of him drawing sailing boats and
and his uncle in the
608
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,610
garden, you know, he, he drew
from, and then as you travel
609
00:47:35,610 --> 00:47:38,640
through the house, you see him,
you see him starting to break
610
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:44,010
the rules and the conventions of
the way that, you know, a lot of
611
00:47:44,010 --> 00:47:48,540
artists can paint and draw
exactly what they see. But how
612
00:47:48,540 --> 00:47:53,160
do you create something new, and
you watch him knowing the craft
613
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:55,860
to break the craft into
something that is quite genius
614
00:47:55,860 --> 00:47:59,280
and different. And that's what I
try to also teach within Young
615
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,270
Identity to know your craft to
know your form to know a cinquain
616
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:09,810
a sestina. As I've mentioned
before, a haiku, a loon, a
617
00:48:09,810 --> 00:48:14,640
quatraine, all of those
things are really important to
618
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:20,370
know. But how do you make a
Shirley or an Isiaah
619
00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:26,040
you met Ari, who
was one of the poets that I
620
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,050
think is in this series, Arinola
Princess Arinola. P.A. Bitez.
621
00:48:31,380 --> 00:48:34,440
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So for
the listeners, I'll just quickly
622
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,270
interject for the listeners
point of view. I did have the
623
00:48:36,270 --> 00:48:40,890
pleasure to talk to Princess
Arinola, who is a Young
624
00:48:40,890 --> 00:48:46,170
Identity poet who works closely
with Shirley. And listeners can
625
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:50,430
also find that interview in
season three. But do carry
626
00:48:50,430 --> 00:48:51,060
on Shirley.
627
00:48:51,389 --> 00:48:57,029
So it's about actually
not just receiving a thing but
628
00:48:57,029 --> 00:48:58,949
how do you make anything
different so you know, you've
629
00:48:58,949 --> 00:49:01,859
got all the different genres of
music. So you've got dubstep,
630
00:49:01,889 --> 00:49:06,959
you've got rock'n'roll. You've
got r&b, you've got the New
631
00:49:06,959 --> 00:49:09,719
Romantics, that's, that's an
area that I like the New
632
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:15,449
Romantics. I like Spandau
Ballet. And so it was, it was
633
00:49:15,479 --> 00:49:18,359
when I was doing this, when I
started this, I was like, You
634
00:49:18,359 --> 00:49:21,839
know what, we're going to break
convention as well. You know,
635
00:49:21,839 --> 00:49:28,769
it's not about just coming in,
and just recreating, because how
636
00:49:28,769 --> 00:49:33,479
does poetry change? How does it
encompass new generations and
637
00:49:33,479 --> 00:49:38,609
also making it accessible to the
everyday person? It's all right,
638
00:49:38,639 --> 00:49:41,729
knowing all those wonderful
forms, but sometimes when you
639
00:49:41,729 --> 00:49:44,849
read a poem that was written in
form, you come away and you
640
00:49:44,849 --> 00:49:50,759
don't I'm not sure what that was
about, but it sounds great. For
641
00:49:50,759 --> 00:49:55,289
me as a poet, I connect with
anything you know, with form and
642
00:49:55,289 --> 00:50:00,359
also freestyle and free free
writing, but equally So I
643
00:50:00,359 --> 00:50:08,279
connect with the word, the hip
hop, random reference, you know,
644
00:50:09,029 --> 00:50:12,509
lists, poems, that kind of
stuff. It's about going forward
645
00:50:12,509 --> 00:50:16,079
and creating new things and
trying new things on the page,
646
00:50:16,229 --> 00:50:21,149
as well as the stage. And then
performance. I feel like I write
647
00:50:21,149 --> 00:50:27,479
very traditionally, you know, a
narrative poet, I write stories,
648
00:50:27,929 --> 00:50:33,539
I probably have a novel inside
of me and this screen
649
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,189
you know, a film or
whatever. But I don't have any
650
00:50:38,189 --> 00:50:41,069
time because I'm spending all my
time nurturing all of the young
651
00:50:41,069 --> 00:50:44,519
people, I think when I retire,
I'll write my great masterpiece,
652
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:49,949
then hopefully. But I write in a
narrative way. But it's not
653
00:50:49,949 --> 00:50:53,789
conventional, either. You know,
it's, it doesn't follow a
654
00:50:53,789 --> 00:50:57,119
particular form, it is free,
right. And it is very much a
655
00:50:57,509 --> 00:51:04,439
spoken word. But it's on the
page. And that's okay. And
656
00:51:04,439 --> 00:51:08,759
that's great. Because people can
read my spoken word and know how
657
00:51:08,759 --> 00:51:12,599
I was feeling when I wrote it.
And that, and then that's what
658
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:16,469
I'm saying to young people go
forth and create your own form.
659
00:51:17,429 --> 00:51:21,389
There's a thing that's called a
loon. And the pattern of the
660
00:51:21,389 --> 00:51:28,499
loon is if I get this right, is
I want to say it's three words,
661
00:51:28,619 --> 00:51:33,389
five words, three words. And on
the turning point, there has to
662
00:51:33,389 --> 00:51:38,909
be a turning point on the third,
third word in the what makes up
663
00:51:38,909 --> 00:51:44,699
the third words. And it's not,
it's not a haiku. So it's not,
664
00:51:44,939 --> 00:51:50,489
it is words. And I was like, Oh,
I'm gonna write myself some
665
00:51:50,489 --> 00:51:54,479
loons. And I'm gonna write loads
of them. And I didn't follow the
666
00:51:54,479 --> 00:51:58,649
form I'd missed, I've done it,
two words, four
667
00:51:58,649 --> 00:52:01,709
words, two words. And I went
I've written some loons, and they
668
00:52:01,709 --> 00:52:09,269
were like, No, you haven't, you've
made a mistake its 353. And I went,
669
00:52:09,299 --> 00:52:11,069
well, it's called a Shirl now.
670
00:52:12,030 --> 00:52:16,620
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's
it's asserting your right to
671
00:52:16,620 --> 00:52:23,940
have a voice, isn't it? And it's
actually, from what you were
672
00:52:23,940 --> 00:52:27,540
just saying, in terms of how you
encourage, you know, the poet's
673
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:34,710
you work with at Young Identity
and, and really inspire that
674
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:42,450
engagement. Would you say, trust
is a critical part of being
675
00:52:42,780 --> 00:52:46,200
brave enough to go forward, as
you say, to push the boundaries
676
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,610
to discover your voice? Is it
also about trusting yourself to
677
00:52:50,610 --> 00:52:54,120
do that, and knowing you are
entitled to do that?
678
00:52:54,599 --> 00:53:01,019
I think it is about trust. But
trust is something that often
679
00:53:01,019 --> 00:53:06,479
we're told that we have to earn.
And sometimes, you know, I mean,
680
00:53:06,479 --> 00:53:08,399
last week, we were talking to
some young people, and they were
681
00:53:08,399 --> 00:53:13,169
saying, Oh, we feel that, then
the newest thing that seems to
682
00:53:13,169 --> 00:53:19,379
have come out. What's the word?
When you don't feel like you're?
683
00:53:20,879 --> 00:53:23,399
Oh, can't remember, it's just
going out of my head. Sorry, I
684
00:53:23,399 --> 00:53:24,989
have had COVID four times.
685
00:53:25,710 --> 00:53:29,070
You're choking me four times!
Four times I
686
00:53:29,070 --> 00:53:32,310
have an autoimmune illness and
every time I've tested I've had
687
00:53:32,310 --> 00:53:35,640
it when I've been really poorly.
And so I've had it four times,
688
00:53:35,850 --> 00:53:38,160
but I'm here still, but
sometimes my brain gets a little
689
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:43,650
bit mashed. What I will say is
that syndrome, imposter
690
00:53:43,650 --> 00:53:45,510
syndrome. So some of them were
saying that they had the
691
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:49,710
imposter syndrome. And it's, you
know, no one can say that
692
00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:52,620
they've not felt like that in
their in their life. Can I do
693
00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:56,400
this job? Am I capable of
passing this? Yeah, to answer
694
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,630
it going back to the question.
That I probably nead you to
695
00:54:00,630 --> 00:54:02,190
rephrase. Yeah,
696
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:07,980
no. Yeah, you are acknowledging
the question. It's in terms of
697
00:54:08,430 --> 00:54:13,860
how trust is part of someone's
courage in a way in terms of
698
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:18,810
trusting yourself, as you say,
to to not feel like an imposter
699
00:54:18,810 --> 00:54:21,150
but to have the right to be.
700
00:54:21,570 --> 00:54:24,600
That's right. And that's what I
was trying to say to them that
701
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,720
actually, we've all felt like
that I felt like that, but
702
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:31,800
that's okay to feel like that.
But it's also important to put
703
00:54:31,980 --> 00:54:35,610
those feelings to one side and
trust you and trust your voice.
704
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:40,710
And as I mentioned all of the
genres before in music, that
705
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:44,220
actually you might like rock and
roll or classic. My son loves
706
00:54:44,220 --> 00:54:49,950
classic music. absolutely adores
it. My, I can remember Nicole
707
00:54:49,950 --> 00:54:53,790
loving a band that was cool. I
think they're called Some 42 or
708
00:54:53,790 --> 00:54:56,430
something like that. And she
went out and bought all the
709
00:54:56,430 --> 00:55:01,800
clothes and her brother was like
No sister of mine, no. But I
710
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,520
went no, she has a right to
have those views and those
711
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,360
points. And if you say no, you
break that, you know, allow it
712
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,660
to be her in the same way you
love classical music, which is
713
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:18,150
actually what people will say,
as a black man is not, you know,
714
00:55:18,180 --> 00:55:24,030
not usual, you know. So
actually, to get to the place of
715
00:55:24,030 --> 00:55:29,850
trust, I think is, is much more
difficult. But it's something
716
00:55:29,850 --> 00:55:32,820
that I've done with Young
Identity, I trust the young
717
00:55:32,820 --> 00:55:36,510
people's voice, I trust that we,
you know, we train them up to
718
00:55:36,510 --> 00:55:40,290
actually teach each other to be
peer mentors. At the moment, we
719
00:55:40,290 --> 00:55:43,380
have a book coming out, it's
young people, I have not read a
720
00:55:43,380 --> 00:55:49,470
poem, I will read it when it's,
it's finally in, you know,
721
00:55:49,470 --> 00:55:53,940
it's in the book form. And I get
sent the first copy to read,
722
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,960
it's been looked over by other
Young Identity members, edited
723
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,780
by other younger Identity
members laid out by Young
724
00:56:00,780 --> 00:56:05,130
Identity members, the book cover
will be designed jointly by two
725
00:56:05,130 --> 00:56:08,550
Young Identity members and
that's how, that's the trust.
726
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,770
And, and it's something that I
saw in Denmark, pre COVID, there
727
00:56:13,770 --> 00:56:19,230
was a group of artists that were
given a property by their
728
00:56:19,260 --> 00:56:24,870
principality by their
city council. And it was an
729
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:28,920
artist, if you like an artist
enclave, and they basically
730
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,130
said, one of the kids are
basically, the city council, our
731
00:56:32,130 --> 00:56:35,010
mom and dad's we pay no gas, and
we pay no electric, and they've
732
00:56:35,010 --> 00:56:38,100
given us this building. But
every time they're doing a
733
00:56:38,100 --> 00:56:42,540
building around the city, one of
our sprayers, our street
734
00:56:42,540 --> 00:56:45,540
sprayers goes and paints a
beautiful mural on that,
735
00:56:45,540 --> 00:56:48,030
and we do that for free, because
we get the space for free.
736
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,140
That's trust, that's trust
between, you know, the
737
00:56:52,140 --> 00:56:54,900
government and the young artists
to produce something that's
738
00:56:54,900 --> 00:56:58,590
going to look beautiful in the
city, while a beautiful building
739
00:56:58,590 --> 00:57:02,910
is being created, we try to do
the same, it's the pillars in
740
00:57:02,910 --> 00:57:07,530
which Younf Identity stands on is
to trust the people who we know,
741
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:13,680
within our organization. And
sometimes you can become unstuck
742
00:57:13,740 --> 00:57:16,350
with that when you trust
somebody, you know, somebody
743
00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:19,770
might go off and not do a piece
of work in the best way that you
744
00:57:19,770 --> 00:57:24,840
would have hoped for. But it's
also we've given them the, the,
745
00:57:25,710 --> 00:57:29,460
the mechanisms to go out and see
whether or not they're going to
746
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,840
work well as a, as a
facilitator, we've not we've
747
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,990
never really had any complaints
about any of our facilitators in
748
00:57:36,990 --> 00:57:41,790
saying that. But we have had
people turn up late, you know,
749
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,230
and we'll say, okay, maybe you
can't do that job in the
750
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:48,690
morning. It doesn't mean to say
we don't give them another job,
751
00:57:48,990 --> 00:57:51,480
we just make sure that they're,
we know they're an evening
752
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,960
person, and they'll turn up a
three o'clock workshop. And
753
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,080
we'll get somebody who will turn
up at a morning workshop, and
754
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,310
run that workshop on their
behalf. And so it's learning who
755
00:58:02,310 --> 00:58:05,520
your team is learning about the
young people that you work with.
756
00:58:06,570 --> 00:58:10,650
It feels a little bit less like
that now that I'm a CEO of this
757
00:58:10,650 --> 00:58:14,850
company, because I was teaching
everyone that was lots of
758
00:58:14,850 --> 00:58:18,660
different workshops. And
sometimes when you start to do
759
00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:21,510
the management side, you get
less of that hands on feel. But
760
00:58:21,810 --> 00:58:25,500
I promised myself when we got
NPO that I would make sure that
761
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:29,010
I did a masterclass in all the
sessions every month.
762
00:58:29,369 --> 00:58:33,029
Yeah, yeah. Because the
principles clearly remain
763
00:58:33,029 --> 00:58:36,299
because what you seem to be
describing is how the
764
00:58:36,299 --> 00:58:41,549
importance of trust in terms of
the people you're working with
765
00:58:41,549 --> 00:58:44,999
and you know, that the young
poets that you're working with,
766
00:58:45,029 --> 00:58:48,629
is that they are integral to the
process. They're integral to how
767
00:58:48,629 --> 00:58:53,849
your your books are created, for
example. So what I love is this
768
00:58:53,879 --> 00:59:00,419
isn't a box ticking inclusion
exercise, because would you
769
00:59:00,419 --> 00:59:07,979
agree that there are far too
many box ticking schemes that
770
00:59:07,979 --> 00:59:12,839
pay lip service to diversity,
which is which is an instant
771
00:59:12,869 --> 00:59:20,699
issue in itself? Because that
may well cultivate imposter
772
00:59:20,699 --> 00:59:27,089
syndrome. It's throwing carrots,
it's not actually offering
773
00:59:27,089 --> 00:59:30,689
inclusion in a way that's
integral as you describe.
774
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,400
I think that that was one of the,
I never wanted to be an NPO. I'm
775
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:41,460
going to be honest, because I
had, we worked really hard. And
776
00:59:41,460 --> 00:59:44,340
we worked extremely hard, but we
didn't have anybody to report
777
00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:49,170
to. In that we report it to
ourselves. We made sure that we
778
00:59:49,170 --> 00:59:51,810
have stats we have the numbers
we have things like that because
779
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,420
if you are going to go for a
grant, you have to prove that
780
00:59:54,420 --> 00:59:57,120
your project is actually doing
some of the work or your
781
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,000
charities doing some of the
work it claims it's doing so we
782
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,440
did keep records but I was
really kind of scared about
783
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:09,690
really being fully, you know, we
would go for Grants for the
784
01:00:09,690 --> 01:00:13,860
Arts, but fully being managed,
really, I now work for the
785
01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:18,540
country, I work for the Arts
Council. And but when they put
786
01:00:18,570 --> 01:00:23,730
out that new arts council
document for the application
787
01:00:23,730 --> 01:00:29,520
form, we were everything that
was in that document. You know,
788
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,210
we were diverse, we were working
with our young people that our
789
01:00:33,210 --> 01:00:35,670
young people are a part, you
know, we have a steering group
790
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:40,380
committee, we have, we have
young facilitators group, we
791
01:00:40,380 --> 01:00:46,620
have a young producers group,
young people run the office. And
792
01:00:46,620 --> 01:00:48,900
all of those young people who
run the office were people who
793
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:52,560
were finding it difficult to
find employment elsewhere, you
794
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,580
know, and we took a chance on
them, and basically, they took a
795
01:00:56,580 --> 01:00:59,310
chance on us because we have no
money to pay them. So the
796
01:00:59,310 --> 01:01:02,670
majority of the people who
worked with us, at the beginning
797
01:01:02,670 --> 01:01:05,820
were people who were
volunteering, and then small
798
01:01:05,820 --> 01:01:09,390
pockets of funding, we would pay
somebody for the hours of work
799
01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:15,840
that they might have produced a
particular project on. On so for
800
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:22,650
us, it, the new Arts Council
application form, couldn't have
801
01:01:22,650 --> 01:01:26,010
been lip service for us. But I
know that people have, you know,
802
01:01:26,010 --> 01:01:28,710
and I will be controversial,
have said that they're going to
803
01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:33,330
change and I hope that they are
going to change and that, you
804
01:01:33,330 --> 01:01:40,170
know, a part of the principles
around the new. The new NPO is
805
01:01:40,170 --> 01:01:45,570
about being more diverse and
inclusive, and, and the
806
01:01:45,570 --> 01:01:50,280
programming being reflective of
multicultural Britain, as it
807
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,450
stands today. And I do hope that
the organizations who have
808
01:01:54,450 --> 01:01:59,190
signed up for these changes that
we actually see this, not only
809
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:04,260
on the ground, but in senior
management, you know, as well,
810
01:02:04,260 --> 01:02:10,860
because a lot of organizations
are still very much I would say
811
01:02:10,860 --> 01:02:13,920
reflective of the majority of
the people who live here in the
812
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:19,080
UK, but it doesn't give any room
for anybody else to move up the
813
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:24,120
ladder or stand on, you know,
stand in the annals of I don't
814
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:30,540
know, organizations that
predominantly are white, you
815
01:02:30,540 --> 01:02:34,530
know, and don't have any brown
or black people or global
816
01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:39,270
majority people working in their
organizations. This new NPO is a
817
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:44,220
challenge to that. And I look
with bated breath to see what
818
01:02:44,220 --> 01:02:48,390
happens to organizations when
they are recruiting. One of the
819
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:52,980
biggest things I hear all the
time, nobody applied for
820
01:02:52,980 --> 01:02:58,710
the position, it was only these
people that applied. It was only
821
01:02:58,710 --> 01:03:03,060
white people that applied or,
but when you speak to community,
822
01:03:03,300 --> 01:03:06,930
they go well, I never heard
about it. I never saw it. No one
823
01:03:06,930 --> 01:03:10,110
came to my university, and I was
the only one black guy on that
824
01:03:10,110 --> 01:03:16,620
course to recruit me, that did
not happen. You know. And so I
825
01:03:16,620 --> 01:03:21,420
think it's really it's gonna be
a challenging three years for a
826
01:03:21,420 --> 01:03:24,750
lot of organizations who have
said that they are going to be
827
01:03:24,750 --> 01:03:29,580
more inclusive. That that that
grant was made for us because we
828
01:03:29,580 --> 01:03:32,910
were doing everything in there.
It was like, what we have to say
829
01:03:32,910 --> 01:03:34,140
is that we were going to do
more.
830
01:03:35,130 --> 01:03:43,950
Yeah. Yeah. And so much of this
is overdue, that there's so much
831
01:03:43,950 --> 01:03:48,990
that's been overlooked for
decades. And it's interesting
832
01:03:49,020 --> 01:03:55,380
how you're framing, you know,
the obvious challenge because a
833
01:03:55,380 --> 01:03:59,220
poet, who you may be aware of,
and who was referenced, actually
834
01:03:59,220 --> 01:04:04,050
Shirley at the Cambridge
University conference, exploring
835
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:10,920
poetry is was Audrey Lorde, born
in 1934, and American writer,
836
01:04:12,060 --> 01:04:17,190
you know, well known as a civil
rights activist, a womanist,
837
01:04:17,250 --> 01:04:23,640
radical, a radical feminist. And
she was dedicated to those
838
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:28,830
challenges of confronting
injustice, racism, sexism,
839
01:04:28,830 --> 01:04:35,400
classism, homophobia, that
follow us around today. And the
840
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:42,600
point she made in terms of the
power of poetry, or the word is
841
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:47,280
poetry is not a luxury and I
wonder if I can just share a
842
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,600
quote with you, Shirley from from
Audrey, because I'm sure you will
843
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:55,770
have really insightful things to
say so I'll quote Audrey Lorde.
844
01:04:56,370 --> 01:05:00,690
"Poetry is not a luxury, it is a
vital necessity. It's a bit of
845
01:05:00,690 --> 01:05:05,130
our existence, it forms the
quality of the life within which
846
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,970
we predicate our hopes and
dreams towards survival and
847
01:05:08,970 --> 01:05:14,430
change, first made into
language, then into idea, then
848
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,350
into more tangible action.
Poetry is the way we help give
849
01:05:19,350 --> 01:05:23,160
name to the nameless, so it can
be thought."
850
01:05:23,699 --> 01:05:29,159
Absolutely beautiful quote. And
I've got my book open on a poem
851
01:05:30,299 --> 01:05:36,989
that I feel that actually sums
up what Audrey is trying to say,
852
01:05:37,019 --> 01:05:43,859
or is saying, not trying, saying
that actually, it is about how
853
01:05:43,889 --> 01:05:51,479
it changes your life, how, you
know, that happens at poignant
854
01:05:51,509 --> 01:05:56,459
times at weddings, at funerals,
at christenings, special
855
01:05:56,459 --> 01:06:03,119
occasions. It responds to, you
know, the pavement lynching of
856
01:06:03,119 --> 01:06:08,549
George Floyd, just in the middle
of COVID. It responds to the now
857
01:06:09,839 --> 01:06:13,589
you know, and that's not just
through poetry, but it's music
858
01:06:13,589 --> 01:06:22,379
as well. You know, I think Woody,
I can't say his name. Who are you
859
01:06:22,379 --> 01:06:30,959
thinking of? A 1930s American
folk singer. Oh
860
01:06:30,959 --> 01:06:31,679
Woody
861
01:06:31,679 --> 01:06:34,739
Guthrie? Yeah, Woody Guthrie.
Yeah.
862
01:06:35,159 --> 01:06:42,269
That was challenging.
Prohibition. The state of the
863
01:06:42,269 --> 01:06:46,889
economy, where human beings
found themselves at that time,
864
01:06:47,069 --> 01:06:51,629
that did the same
thing you know, so, I have this
865
01:06:51,629 --> 01:06:55,709
poem. It's called Tomorrow and
it goes, "We stand in all our
866
01:06:55,709 --> 01:06:59,129
yesterday's where the valiant
one stood where heroes now
867
01:06:59,129 --> 01:07:03,719
stand, I will not flinch nor
fall, for we have come too far.
868
01:07:03,719 --> 01:07:08,429
So I battle like a queen should.
Mother's call to combat like the
869
01:07:08,429 --> 01:07:12,629
battalions of our families, or
those who did not lie down,
870
01:07:12,839 --> 01:07:16,829
while others took possession of
their rise and fall. Spirited
871
01:07:16,829 --> 01:07:20,579
like my mother's mother and her
mother before. We did not yield
872
01:07:20,579 --> 01:07:24,599
ground but braced ourselves for
the journey in the holes of tall
873
01:07:24,599 --> 01:07:30,059
ships to distant shores. A
bejeweled cargo of victor's
874
01:07:30,179 --> 01:07:34,409
and brave women. We are the jet
black fabulous jazz of
875
01:07:34,409 --> 01:07:38,399
Isosceles. We stand in all of
our yesterday's, where the
876
01:07:38,399 --> 01:07:42,869
valiant once stood, where heroes
now stand you set a path for us
877
01:07:42,869 --> 01:07:47,459
to ascend to find the very best
in us. As we enter the city
878
01:07:47,459 --> 01:07:52,739
gates. We are a people that have
battled against those who will
879
01:07:52,739 --> 01:07:57,419
try to defeat us. You made us
strong you gave us your voice.
880
01:07:57,449 --> 01:08:02,399
You left us your song told us to
rise on the dawn and overstand
881
01:08:02,399 --> 01:08:08,099
the storm you made a spirited
for we are Kenya and Egypt,
882
01:08:08,099 --> 01:08:14,369
Senegal and Rwanda, Mali and
Libya, Madagascar and Nigeria
883
01:08:14,369 --> 01:08:21,179
Jamaica, Barbados we are Trinidad we
are people call to arm a people
884
01:08:21,209 --> 01:08:24,839
not afraid. So we stand in all
of our yesterday's where the
885
01:08:24,839 --> 01:08:29,609
valiant had once stood. And we
claim all of our tomorrows in
886
01:08:29,609 --> 01:08:31,919
this victory song."
887
01:08:34,380 --> 01:08:40,230
That's really beautiful. That's
such a affirming, affirming
888
01:08:40,230 --> 01:08:44,640
piece of writing. And it
certainly picks up would you say
889
01:08:46,140 --> 01:08:51,210
on a theme really, that you you
work with in terms of
890
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:59,970
acknowledging the future, not
not not only carrying a sense of
891
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:05,610
betrayal or injustice, and not
denying the significance of
892
01:09:05,610 --> 01:09:10,890
betrayal and injustice. But
embracing the future? In fact, I
893
01:09:10,890 --> 01:09:14,580
think another one of your poems
is called Are we still betrayed?
894
01:09:18,299 --> 01:09:21,869
And yes, Are we still betrayed?
It's a it's a question I've just
895
01:09:21,869 --> 01:09:27,149
put on my Instagram. You know,
another young man, as I
896
01:09:27,149 --> 01:09:32,459
mentioned before, has been
killed. And you know, in the
897
01:09:32,459 --> 01:09:37,679
United States, where racism and
prevalent prejudice, although
898
01:09:37,739 --> 01:09:42,269
it's trying to be better, is
still prevalent. And, and I
899
01:09:42,269 --> 01:09:50,129
write, literally, I write when
will we stop being
900
01:09:50,129 --> 01:09:55,049
collaborators, anxiety and a
taser does not work together.
901
01:09:56,219 --> 01:10:02,429
Another son dead. Why are we so
expendable? And I think that
902
01:10:02,429 --> 01:10:09,389
it's important to know that in a
world where there is still color
903
01:10:09,389 --> 01:10:15,269
difference, and people make
color it into an issue that
904
01:10:15,329 --> 01:10:21,449
ultimately, we are human, and
all of us on this planet, if we
905
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:28,169
don't get the message soon, we
will not exist. Because it's not
906
01:10:28,169 --> 01:10:35,999
about this border or this line
of, oh, you know, I'm from
907
01:10:35,999 --> 01:10:39,239
Afghanistan, you're from
Pakistan, I'm from Bangladesh,
908
01:10:39,239 --> 01:10:43,259
you're from Jamaica, or Trinidad
it's not about those borders,
909
01:10:43,259 --> 01:10:46,289
we need to get rid of them. We
need to just get rid of them and
910
01:10:46,289 --> 01:10:50,279
go, we are a part of a human
race. Because you know, what, if
911
01:10:50,279 --> 01:10:53,789
we get invaded, and they are
human eating, they're not going
912
01:10:53,789 --> 01:10:56,489
to say which border do you belong
to? They're going to eat you.
913
01:10:56,489 --> 01:11:01,259
Yeah. You know, so actually, we
need to find a way to work
914
01:11:01,259 --> 01:11:04,769
better together so that our
future for our children and our
915
01:11:04,769 --> 01:11:11,279
grandchildren, and ourselves is
just better than it is now. You
916
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:14,999
know, and we have to find
forgiveness. Because if we don't
917
01:11:14,999 --> 01:11:19,679
find forgiveness, we're just
going to be always steeped in
918
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:24,569
looking at your neighbor, and
say, Mr. Mr. Brown's got better
919
01:11:24,569 --> 01:11:28,079
than me. So I need to be better
than him, rather than embrace
920
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:32,099
that he's done well, and how can
I support him? And how can he
921
01:11:32,099 --> 01:11:35,249
support me, because that's where
that's where we should be by
922
01:11:35,249 --> 01:11:39,719
now, as a human, the human race,
the human condition should be in
923
01:11:39,719 --> 01:11:43,379
a better place with all of the
technology that we have the all
924
01:11:43,379 --> 01:11:48,269
of the information that we have,
you know, these little petty
925
01:11:48,269 --> 01:11:55,799
divisions that that others fuel,
we need to stop listening to, to
926
01:11:55,799 --> 01:11:56,549
be honest.
927
01:11:56,790 --> 01:12:03,330
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't
agree more and hate and forms of
928
01:12:03,330 --> 01:12:09,150
discrimination are ultimately
artificial constructs that are
929
01:12:09,150 --> 01:12:17,880
taught, and it is astonishing
that the world continues to turn
930
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:22,170
in so much cruelty. But as you
acknowledged earlier, there is
931
01:12:22,170 --> 01:12:26,190
still a lot of opportunity for
for compassion and beauty. And,
932
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,970
and actually, as you were
talking, I thought, this really
933
01:12:29,970 --> 01:12:33,990
resonated with your current
album, Rainfall, because that
934
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:38,190
has an emphasis, not only on
family in terms of one's
935
01:12:38,190 --> 01:12:42,210
immediate family, but perhaps
the idea of a global or
936
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:43,800
universal family.
937
01:12:44,460 --> 01:12:48,840
That's right. And that's what
we're, that's what I'm striving
938
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,370
for. I know, it's what my team
strives for, is this global
939
01:12:53,490 --> 01:12:57,660
family, Young Identity is a
global family. It's not just a
940
01:12:57,660 --> 01:13:02,970
black organization, led by no
black women. It's an
941
01:13:02,970 --> 01:13:06,360
organization that encompasses
everyone, and everyone is
942
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:11,640
welcomed, as has an open door
policy. And then, and, yeah,
943
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:19,500
it's about making sure that we
as humans, be more human. Or are
944
01:13:19,500 --> 01:13:23,670
we being what we are, you know,
I've just created a dilemma that
945
01:13:23,700 --> 01:13:27,390
are we being who we are, and we
can't change? Am I looking for a
946
01:13:27,390 --> 01:13:32,790
utopia? I hope so. I hope I'm
looking for something where, you
947
01:13:32,790 --> 01:13:39,150
know, we are challenged as human
beings, but we can see the good
948
01:13:39,150 --> 01:13:42,870
things that we've created, you
know, the paintings that really
949
01:13:42,870 --> 01:13:46,320
changed people's lives just by
sitting in a gallery and looking
950
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:49,260
at them, you know, the books
that people have written that
951
01:13:49,260 --> 01:13:55,890
have just absolutely changed
one's thought processes and how
952
01:13:55,890 --> 01:14:00,450
you perceive life. You know, all
of those good things that happen
953
01:14:00,630 --> 01:14:04,440
that that can make the world
better, I want more of.
954
01:14:05,430 --> 01:14:09,300
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll just
signpost the listeners to the
955
01:14:09,300 --> 01:14:14,010
fact that your album Shirley May's
album Rainfall you can find on
956
01:14:14,010 --> 01:14:18,510
Spotify, but I will be including
a link on Shirley's episode page
957
01:14:18,510 --> 01:14:24,060
so you can discover more of her
work. And Shirley, Rainfall to me
958
01:14:24,090 --> 01:14:27,570
almost felt like it's a sort
of an invented phrase, really,
959
01:14:27,570 --> 01:14:32,100
it felt like soft prayers. And I
suppose what I mean by that is
960
01:14:32,100 --> 01:14:37,200
it's not in any way preachy, and
I was interested in your
961
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:42,060
dedication to your daughter,
Nicole, Gather, Gather Unto Me,
962
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:43,080
I say.
963
01:14:44,460 --> 01:14:51,480
So, that poem came from, we have
a tradition that is called Nine
964
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:57,390
Nights and you to stay with the
family of a deceased person for
965
01:14:57,390 --> 01:15:02,730
nine days and nine nights
putting them through the first
966
01:15:02,730 --> 01:15:08,880
stages of grief, and
bereavement. And then after the
967
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:13,710
nine, nine, he leaves them on
their own. The person is buried
968
01:15:13,740 --> 01:15:18,000
by them. And some people do it
traditionally different ways.
969
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,440
Some, some islands and countries
do it that the nine days after
970
01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:26,070
the death, and some do it before
the death, but there is a point
971
01:15:26,070 --> 01:15:31,110
when the person who's bereaved
is on their own. And my friend
972
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:34,500
of mine passed away, he was
quite a well known chef, black
973
01:15:34,500 --> 01:15:39,120
chef in Manchester, and His
funeral was standing room only
974
01:15:39,390 --> 01:15:47,940
our church, a local church that
we sometimes go to. And anyway,
975
01:15:48,210 --> 01:15:51,510
she just said to me, do you
think we would continue this
976
01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:57,060
tradition after you guys have
gone, and it was, and that poem
977
01:15:57,060 --> 01:16:02,100
was my hope that it would
continue. Because it is a it's
978
01:16:02,100 --> 01:16:06,750
the worst time in anyone's life
when you lose somebody. And to
979
01:16:06,750 --> 01:16:10,860
be left on your own, to do
everything by yourself, and
980
01:16:10,860 --> 01:16:14,010
cannot be easy. And that's the
one thing I love about the
981
01:16:14,010 --> 01:16:17,400
Caribbean African
tradition is we just don't leave
982
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:20,670
you on your own. We chat you to
death, we make you cry, we make
983
01:16:20,670 --> 01:16:26,310
you laugh, we look at old
photographs. We discuss stories
984
01:16:26,310 --> 01:16:30,330
that we shouldn't discuss. We do
everything in those nine nights
985
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:34,740
and isn't it is underpinned by
the church, and the and what we
986
01:16:34,740 --> 01:16:38,100
call the roadmap, you know, so
the man playing the dominoes and
987
01:16:38,100 --> 01:16:42,540
smoking a cigar or a spliff on
drinking too much rum, with the
988
01:16:42,540 --> 01:16:46,320
woman in the next room. Track,
there's almost a battle between
989
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:52,110
these two groups of people. And
I love it, I love it, I think
990
01:16:52,110 --> 01:16:56,970
it's really important for
diaspora people to hang on to
991
01:16:56,970 --> 01:17:00,210
some of their traditions. And
that's what that piece is about.
992
01:17:00,630 --> 01:17:04,620
And it's really funny, because I
have no intentions of making
993
01:17:04,620 --> 01:17:09,150
this album, it was on my bucket
lists to do, and I have a friend
994
01:17:09,150 --> 01:17:13,350
called Clive and he lost his
mum. And it was Clive who in
995
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:17,910
COVID, said, I would love to put
set some of your poetry to
996
01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:23,610
music. And I don't really want
to do it. So it's an r&b album,
997
01:17:23,610 --> 01:17:27,330
or a broken beat, sell them more
this kind of album, I just want
998
01:17:27,330 --> 01:17:33,600
it to be how the word, so we're
back at that beginning, leads me
999
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:38,550
with my music. And that's what's
happened with this collection.
1000
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:43,650
The actual label said to me,
what do you want to call it, and
1001
01:17:43,650 --> 01:17:46,920
I said, I really want to call it
Bits and Pieces, and they went
1002
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:55,620
no. They just went no. So
there was a couple of names, you
1003
01:17:55,620 --> 01:17:59,970
know, Through the Eyes of a
Woman, and then Rainfall and I
1004
01:17:59,970 --> 01:18:04,890
think Rainfall, because it is
about crying. It's about what
1005
01:18:05,220 --> 01:18:09,150
what we were currently going
through. And he he, Clive,
1006
01:18:09,150 --> 01:18:13,470
Busherman, the person who has written
all of the music said to me,
1007
01:18:13,470 --> 01:18:16,500
that was a part of his healing
process, where he grieved his
1008
01:18:16,500 --> 01:18:22,020
mom while he was in lockdown.
You know, and so, you know, I'm
1009
01:18:22,020 --> 01:18:25,170
really privileged to have people
who want to work with me in that
1010
01:18:25,170 --> 01:18:28,710
way. And to encourage me as an
artist, because I spend all my
1011
01:18:28,710 --> 01:18:32,550
time encouraging everybody else,
helping them to fundraise for
1012
01:18:32,550 --> 01:18:36,090
their projects and the things
that they're interested in doing
1013
01:18:36,330 --> 01:18:40,200
that sometimes you neglect your
craft, because you're helping
1014
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:44,310
somebody else create their
craft. And so it was really nice
1015
01:18:44,310 --> 01:18:50,130
for someone to say, actually
stop and take a moment with
1016
01:18:50,130 --> 01:18:54,660
yourself and what what sounds do
you want to this? And then I was
1017
01:18:54,660 --> 01:18:59,250
like, I don't know. And so I
really did just record the
1018
01:18:59,250 --> 01:19:02,880
stuff. And there was one time in
my bedroom where he took over my
1019
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:08,970
computer. I was like, how are
you doing this? Recorded me from
1020
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:13,110
his, you know, his studio back
in his house. And I was like,
1021
01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:19,830
this is amazing, but scary. So
it's a wonderful, wonderful
1022
01:19:19,830 --> 01:19:23,670
piece of work to have been
involved in. And I really do
1023
01:19:23,670 --> 01:19:28,200
thank the people who have really
pushed it like Johnny Jay, who
1024
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:33,660
is the the record label that
it's come out on the and and
1025
01:19:33,660 --> 01:19:36,690
Busherman productions because
they're the ones who were like,
1026
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:40,980
come on, come on, get on with
it. And it was nice. It was
1027
01:19:40,980 --> 01:19:42,690
lovely to do it. I really like
it.
1028
01:19:43,350 --> 01:19:47,730
So surely just as I'm thinking
we'll have to draw to close
1029
01:19:47,730 --> 01:19:52,740
unfortunately it is it is so
wonderful talking to you. In
1030
01:19:52,740 --> 01:19:57,090
terms of everything we've shared
I'm interested in of course the
1031
01:19:57,090 --> 01:20:00,720
series question Can Art Save Us?
Which has lots of mixed
1032
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:04,500
responses there's no right or
wrong answer, of course, I'm
1033
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:08,370
really interested in what your
responses and we've we've also
1034
01:20:08,370 --> 01:20:12,180
been talking a lot about the
wisdoms of your mother and what
1035
01:20:12,180 --> 01:20:16,440
she shared with you. And one of
the poems that stood out to me
1036
01:20:17,700 --> 01:20:23,040
in your in your book is Judge
Not Lest Ye Be Judged. And it
1037
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:30,000
really felt like is that one of
the ways art saves us? Because
1038
01:20:30,690 --> 01:20:34,980
it's really acknowledging
justice and how justice comes
1039
01:20:34,980 --> 01:20:38,220
about. I just wondered what your
thoughts were.
1040
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:46,290
For me, the sentiment came about,
it's a biblical sentiment,
1041
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:50,790
judge, judge, not lest you be
judged, is a biblical statement,
1042
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:55,230
that's, you know, that come from
my mother's Baptist background.
1043
01:20:57,030 --> 01:21:04,080
And I think one of my pastors,
in my early years at church used
1044
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:07,980
to say, as you point a finger at
someone else, there's three fingers
1045
01:21:07,980 --> 01:21:14,040
pointing back at you, and, and
so therefore, can I be anybody's
1046
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:19,170
judge or jury? Probably not, can
art save, I definitely believe
1047
01:21:19,170 --> 01:21:25,230
that art is something that saves
and you know, earlier on, you
1048
01:21:25,230 --> 01:21:29,370
had your camera off, and I
actually threw my arms back and
1049
01:21:29,370 --> 01:21:32,490
through my head, but when you
said, does art save us, and I've
1050
01:21:32,490 --> 01:21:38,190
just thought that actually, it
saved me, you know, you know,
1051
01:21:38,220 --> 01:21:43,500
poetry, and, and what are
subsequently happened, you know,
1052
01:21:43,500 --> 01:21:46,530
my love of drawing, my love of
painting, my love of
1053
01:21:46,830 --> 01:21:51,960
architecture, all of that has
encompassed who I am as an
1054
01:21:51,990 --> 01:21:56,670
artist, and I do believe it can
save. And then I remember going
1055
01:21:56,670 --> 01:22:03,150
to America as to an organization
called Brave New Voices. And
1056
01:22:03,150 --> 01:22:09,360
there was a really renowned poet
and Professor now. And he had
1057
01:22:09,570 --> 01:22:14,490
hitched hiked across the country
to get to Chicago. Because he
1058
01:22:14,490 --> 01:22:18,600
really wanted to take part in
this poetry called Brave New
1059
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,120
Voices. And it's, and they
always profess that they, you
1060
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:24,090
know, they touch every nation in
the world, but they do because
1061
01:22:24,090 --> 01:22:27,630
America is a dichotomy isn't it,
a melting pot of people from
1062
01:22:27,660 --> 01:22:32,250
everywhere, and also they have
the World Series, and this guy,
1063
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:37,350
and it's only them that plays
that, there was this guy that
1064
01:22:37,350 --> 01:22:39,780
just went, you know, he was
talking to our group, and he
1065
01:22:39,780 --> 01:22:44,490
went, this has really saved my life.
And I had to be here, to be a
1066
01:22:44,490 --> 01:22:48,690
part of this and to meet you
and, and to meet this team, and
1067
01:22:48,690 --> 01:22:51,930
to meet all the different teams
that were taking part. And this
1068
01:22:51,930 --> 01:22:58,890
was poetry. This is spoken word
this is this is the go back to
1069
01:22:58,890 --> 01:23:02,700
the beginning, the word and what
the word means to young people,
1070
01:23:02,730 --> 01:23:05,940
and how it connects and touches,
whether or not you're talking
1071
01:23:05,940 --> 01:23:08,760
about your gender, whether or
not you're talking about color,
1072
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:13,830
or discrimination, or the state,
the world is in with the, with
1073
01:23:13,860 --> 01:23:18,840
the issues around climate
change. Poetry, speaks to all of
1074
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,860
those things. And then also, in
turn speaks to your spirit in
1075
01:23:22,860 --> 01:23:27,870
your soul. So I do believe that
art changes you, I do believe
1076
01:23:27,870 --> 01:23:32,070
poetry changes you. That's my
particular art form. And, you
1077
01:23:32,070 --> 01:23:38,040
know, my son in law is a
director. And he was a part of a
1078
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,820
group of people that met at,
I think it was Stratford,
1079
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:45,780
Stratford, south or north, I
don't know the theaters in
1080
01:23:45,780 --> 01:23:49,380
London, but it was a theatre in
London in Stratford, and where
1081
01:23:49,380 --> 01:23:52,950
he was getting in and out of
trouble, but he just got pulled
1082
01:23:52,950 --> 01:23:57,420
into a community program. That
now he's one of the leading, I
1083
01:23:57,420 --> 01:24:01,080
think he's in the 100 list of
leading directors in the
1084
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:06,270
country. And that is how art
changes you. You know, Matthew
1085
01:24:06,270 --> 01:24:10,950
Zia, who's was, not
Contact Theatre, Royal Exchange,
1086
01:24:12,090 --> 01:24:16,170
is doing marvelous things. He
was a part of that group of
1087
01:24:16,770 --> 01:24:20,850
young people who were pulled
into this community program, and
1088
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:24,900
that has given them a new
perspective on life. I know that
1089
01:24:25,500 --> 01:24:28,860
I never thought that I was going
to be a poet, as you know, 35
1090
01:24:28,860 --> 01:24:33,990
When I started, I'm going to be
60 this year. Quite a turning
1091
01:24:33,990 --> 01:24:42,390
point for me. And, you know, to
know that without art, where
1092
01:24:42,390 --> 01:24:43,020
would I be?
1093
01:24:44,850 --> 01:24:50,520
Yeah, this it's it's such. It's
such powerful stuff. And your
1094
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:57,180
examples are so profound and
even just mentioning then, you
1095
01:24:57,180 --> 01:25:01,890
know, how you actually became a
poet at the 35 and in 2020,
1096
01:25:01,890 --> 01:25:05,640
you became an Honorary Fellow of
the Royal Society of literature.
1097
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:11,580
And I think you're such an
important a hugely important
1098
01:25:12,390 --> 01:25:16,230
example to so many people. And
of course, especially all of the
1099
01:25:16,590 --> 01:25:20,700
youth you work with through
Young Identity, the legacy
1100
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:24,000
you're creating is immense.
1101
01:25:24,450 --> 01:25:29,550
Thank you. It's been a,
it's an interesting discovery.
1102
01:25:29,730 --> 01:25:32,970
You know, I'm, I'm part of, I
always say, I'm a part of a
1103
01:25:32,970 --> 01:25:35,730
collective, you know, I've been
a part of Common Word, I've been
1104
01:25:35,730 --> 01:25:40,680
a part of Speakeasy, as a part
of a group that called Sisters
1105
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:44,310
Talk, I've always been a part of
a collective, I'm a part of a
1106
01:25:44,310 --> 01:25:49,020
collective, really, with Young
Identity. And all of those,
1107
01:25:49,500 --> 01:25:52,800
those people, those people that
I've encountered have all had an
1108
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:56,730
impact, and that impact that
they've had on me, I hope I paid
1109
01:25:56,730 --> 01:26:01,410
it forward to other people. And
that that impact is about, you
1110
01:26:01,410 --> 01:26:07,050
know, like I said, none of us
are perfect. You know, there are
1111
01:26:07,050 --> 01:26:11,220
failures and failures that we,
we all experienced, but
1112
01:26:11,220 --> 01:26:14,760
actually, the bigger picture is
the bigger impact that you've
1113
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:19,680
had on someone's life. And
they've had an impact on mine.
1114
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:24,480
And art has definitely changed
me and changed, changed my
1115
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:30,480
family's life. You know, it's
how I earn my living. Yeah, it's
1116
01:26:30,480 --> 01:26:33,690
changed everything for us. And
it's been good.
1117
01:26:34,710 --> 01:26:38,190
Absolutely, Shirley, I can't thank
you enough for how generous
1118
01:26:38,190 --> 01:26:42,780
you've been with your time
today. I'm so glad I crossed
1119
01:26:42,780 --> 01:26:45,300
paths with you and your
daughter, Nicole at the
1120
01:26:45,300 --> 01:26:51,720
Cambridge University conference.
Poets have so much to teach us
1121
01:26:51,750 --> 01:26:55,620
and to encourage us with in
terms of having our own our own
1122
01:26:55,620 --> 01:26:58,890
voices. Thank you so much,
Shirley. I really, really do
1123
01:26:58,890 --> 01:27:00,630
appreciate talking to you today.
1124
01:27:01,050 --> 01:27:03,960
Absolutely. Wonderful. Paula,
thank you for inviting me to the
1125
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:04,620
podcast.
1126
01:27:05,010 --> 01:27:07,500
You're very welcome. Thank you,
Shirley.