BPS 412: How to Create a Compelling Documentary with Julie Cohen & Betsy West

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You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twelve.
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I Think every woman should have a blowtorch.
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Julia Child broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood
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when we really should be working on that next draft.
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It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
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business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
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screenplay bulletproof.
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And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
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Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.
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Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
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So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered
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by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys,
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Today on the show, we have Oscar nominated documentarians Julie
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Cohen and Betsy West. Now they are the creative force
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behind the new documentary Julia, which is about the legendary
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Julia Childs, and we discuss how they approach documentary, how
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they work the story, how they get the interviews, all
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the kind of creative story points of how they approach
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dealing with a legend. They had some experience with that
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because they also did the Oscar nominated the Notorious RBG,
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which is of course Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Great
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Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we talked a
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little bit about how that project got off the ground
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and how they were able to put that whole thing
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together because she'd been very private most of her life,
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and we just get into the weeds of documentary in
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this episode, So without any further ado, please enjoy my
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conversation with Julie Cohen and Betsy West. I'd like to
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welcome to the show, Julie Cohen and Betsy West. How
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you guys doing.
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We're great, Alex.
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We've just been having a lot of lasts before we
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started recording, so I do appreciate you guys coming on.
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I did have the chance to watch your amazing new
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doc Julia about Julia Childs, who I am a huge
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fan of, a fan of, and I've loved your past
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work as well, which were going to get into, but
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let's just jump in. How did you guys get how
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did you guys team up and how did you get
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started in documentary?
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Well, big question, big question.
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We teamed up through a project called The Maker's Project,
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which was possibly not so surprising given us some of
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the work that we've done subsequently about the history of
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the modern women's rights movement.
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Oh, very cool.
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Yeah, that was like ten or so years ago, and
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then you know, we went our separate ways more or less.
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And then in twenty fifteen, as Justice Ginsburg was kind
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of blowing up on the internet for the sense she
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was writing, and we had I both interviewed her. Prior
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to that, we came up with the idea of doing
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that documentary, and then subsequent to that, we've been working
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on a few films together.
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Now, what was it about a documentary for each of
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you that made you want to go? I went to
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this side of storytelling, the side of the industry.
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You know, when I look back on it, I always
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loved documentaries, and you know, I loved as a kid.
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I will now date myself watching the world at war
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and you know, just longer storytelling. But you know, I
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became a broadcast network news producer and behind the scenes producer,
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working on shorter format and then magazine pieces. Julie and
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I have sort of a similar background. But I always
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loved documentaries back in the day, even when they were
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kind of it was kind of the D word, you know,
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documentaries weren't so hot back then. But that's really what
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I wanted to do.
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Yeah, I mean, similar deal for me, also came from
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the broadcast news world.
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Also just love documentaries like I like movies, like movie movies.
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So doing tell real stories in the format of movies
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is really fun. Like my favorite art is always true
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story art. I love photography, I even love music that's
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kind of documentary, as you know, the Bruce Springsteen's like
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Ghost of Tom Joad album that's really sort of like
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a documentary in an album.
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Like anything that's anything.
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That's real feels like kind of some of the coolest
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stories to tell.
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Now, how do you guys choose the subject matter that
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you guys tackle, Because it doesn't take you know, six months,
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three months to make one of these things. It generally
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takes a few years. And but how do you guys
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choose and then how do you stay stay interested in
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it for so long?
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Well, I mean you put your finger on it, Alex. Really,
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you have to choose things that you want to spend
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two or three or four years on or else you know,
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you'll go nuts. And I think, you know, with Justice Ginsburg,
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it was kind of one of those light bulb ideas
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of oh my goodness, what an amazing story, a current story,
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a backstory, a love story. I mean, you just couldn't
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have anything better than working on that.
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You know.
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After that film, we started looking around for other projects
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and thinking about other women who perhaps had not been
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appreciated so much, and you know, had had really been groundbreakers,
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had really changed our world, and that's when we landed
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on the idea of doing Julia.
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Yeah. I mean, there's definitely not a formula that we have.
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It's the main decision point is like do we want
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to delve into this because it is otherwise, like you know,
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making a documentary. As you're in the film, audiences probably
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know like it's it's it's just it's a lot of work,
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it's a lot of time, a lot of the process
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is a big pain in the butt. So the reward
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side is feeling like you really love the subject matter,
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and we just realized like, oh, this one could really
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be fun.
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It's so different than.
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The other stories that we've worked on in our careers,
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and there was just like so much joy involved in
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kind of deliciousness, and it seems like subject matter that
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we really really might kind of groove on you No.
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I think it also was a kind of filming challenge
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for us to do something different. Yes, Julia has archive,
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but also the opportunity to do some high end food photography,
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which neither of us had really done before, and to
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really dig into that we thought would be would be
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super fun.
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Now, going back to RPG, what was what was it
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like working with her, interviewing her, being in the room
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with her. I mean, I have to ask, because she's
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essentially an icon at this point, and she wasn't icon
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while she was a living icon when she was with us.
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What was that like? And how did you even approach that?
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When did did you just call up I would like
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to make this film about you? How did the whole
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process come to be.
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You know, step by step? Basically, we approached Justice Ginsberg
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pretty carefully and strategically. And initially when we went to
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her with the idea of doing a documentary, she said,
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you know, not yet, I'm not ready. This was, you know,
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when she was in her early eighties. We're thinking, okay,
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but we she didn't say no to us. So then
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we came back a couple of months later with the
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idea of, oh, well, we're just going to start to
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interview people with your friends and colleagues and whatever, you know,
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to kind of get her approval for that, and then
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we took it from there. So it was we didn't
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go in saying, oh, yeah, we want to do a
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documentary and can we go with you to the gym?
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By the way, like we didn't start out with that
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ask even though in our minds we were thinking it
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would be fun to go with her to the gym,
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but it was a slow building of trust.
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It was a step by step. So when you're approaching
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a subject, a subject like that who is so high profile,
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you can't walk in with guns of blarin You have
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to really kind of really baby step your way in
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to that kind of stuff.
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Yeah, I mean, I think you're always trying to.
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Ask questions to which you can get the answer yes,
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So those need to be small questions.
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First.
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You don't come at some you have to think of
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it from their perspective, Like you don't come at someone
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with like a really like, oh, we're going to impose
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on you.
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So much, We're going to take up so much of
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your time.
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We're going to you know, pick apart every aspect of
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your career. No, it's not like that, You're like, I mean,
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the way to get the process going is to try
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to start to get it going, So trying to come
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up with things that you think that your subject might
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agree to.
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And in this case, as.
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Betsy says, we'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor out back to the show.
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You know, the initial thing wasn't even about us interviewing
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or even filming the justices herself. It was about like, oh,
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is it okay with you if we start to interview
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some of the people who you've worked with in earlier
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phases of your career, just so that the project, so
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that she starts to get the sense that this project
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is moving forward. And here back from people that we interviewed, like, oh,
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you know, these women were pretty serious about what they
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were doing, and they seemed like they'd done some research,
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and you know, they seemed like they came in with
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this amazing you know, woman cinematographer who had like greater
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like this is like a real production happening here.
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So then you get that sense.
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And then at that stage, Justice Gisberg let us start
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filming some of you know, some public events that she
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was doing, and then later some more intimate or private events,
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and then the actual interview didn't happen until you know,
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to near the end of the process, actually two years
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into filming.
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Now I have to ask, I mean, how nervous were
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you to show it to her?
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Well, you know, amazingly, Justice Ginsburg never asked to see
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the film ahead of the screening at Sundance and which
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we thought was a real act of trust, or maybe
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she was just too busy or who don't but you
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can't ask. She agreed to go to the Sundance Film Festival,
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so we had both our major first premiere at Sundance
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there with Justice Ginsburg sitting across the aisle from us,
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and it was completely totally nerve wracking, and you know,
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we were kind of watching her the sock of our
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eyes the entire time, as opposed to watching the film.
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And you know, she started laughing right at the beginning
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because there is sort of a kind of funny opening
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sequence with statues saying mean things about her, and then
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you know, just a little ways in she pulled had
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a tissue and wiped her eye and it was it
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was incredible. I can't even tell you what it was
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like to experience that and to have her like like
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the film and appreciate it. I mean, it just meant
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everything to us.
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And you guys, would did you guys premiere at the
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eCos at Sundance or was it that the Egyptian.
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Give us the other I try to remember, but it was.
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The Egyptian, the big one, Mark, Okay, it was just
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I was just trying to visualize it.
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Yeah, about five hundred people that had like a sort
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of bleachery, right, there's sort of bleacher seats and yeah.
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That must have been And then and then with the
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whole oscar stuff going around, what was that like when
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you got that call?
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Well, you know, you don't get a call and you
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watch it on watch what you watch everyone else? The
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nominations being announced, and certainly it was fun.
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But we had our we our husbands made us breakfast.
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So we're at my house and we had a really
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nice breakfast that we sat there. And actually our name,
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the RBG name, was the last one in the list
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of the nominees, so we actually thought when they named
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the fourth one and it wasn't us, we thought, okay,
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that's it. You know. We didn't so that that accounted
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for our rather exuberant reaction, and it was more a
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reaction like you're kidding.
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We were really we were quite surprised.
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So so as the inaudacious were being an nice we're
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like just past the hash Browns. It's like it's over already.
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We weren't that casual. We had eaten already.
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Okay, good, I got you.
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That's because we were the last one to be announced
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as the other.
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You know, as the other.
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Films are being named, you sort of start to get
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the that you're not gonna.
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Be No, what was the biggest lesson you learned from
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working on RBG?
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Hi? The biggest lesson from art working on RBG? I mean,
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I guess persistence. You know, slow and steady wins the game.
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I mean, that's what RBG did in her life. Lots
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of setbacks, lots of discouragement, you know, for a super
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smart person who gets out of law school and can't
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get the kind of job that she really deserved, and
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then you know, just started finding this opportunity to challenge
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not only the discrimination that she faced, but the discrimination
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that all American women faced, and a world that people
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took for granted where women were second class citizens. I mean,
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kind of an extraordinary thing that really came out of
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the obstacles in front of her. So I guess it's
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a lesson of persistence and don't let anger get the
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best of you. Think strategically, Okay, you're up against a wall.
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How am I going to get past that? That was
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her approach.
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Now, when you guys are laying out a film, how
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do you lay out the story. Do you discover the
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story along the way? Is there an outline? What is
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the actual documentary process as far as you guys are concerned, Yeah.
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The process is sort of like continually organizing and outlining
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the story and changing that as you go along. Like
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certainly at various stages we have a rough idea of
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thoughts of what you want the structure of the film
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to be. Then at a certain point in the process,
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our editor gets involved.
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And in the case of both RBG and Jewel, oh yeah,
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are the same.
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Brilliant editor Carla Gucierrez was part of that process with us.
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So you sort of, you know, we sort of you have.
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Very you know, you're very tentative outlines in mind, but
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often what works the best, I mean, we we like to.
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Start, you know, in the.
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Same way that I was saying, you're trying to get
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to it, yes, pretty or you know, we try to
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start with some scenes that we really think are going
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to work, not worry about like the whole thing in
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one in one sitting, but just like you know, take
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a bite of it, take a small slice of what
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the story might be, and like once there's a really
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beautiful scene, then that gives you the optimism that you
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need to push to the next level and sort of
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piece things together and if they're working, keep going in
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the direction that things are working, and if they're not working,
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make revisions to the parts that aren't working.
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Yeah, I mean, we do use, you know, the sort
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of modern method of the little post its on a wall,
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which filmmakers know where you have you write the scenes
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and the things that you expect you're going to have
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to cover, and you put them on a wall. Only
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we do it digitally now with this thing called jamboard,
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which you can use to just move scenes around and
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as Julie said, we start cutting scenes. I mean, in
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the case of Julia, one idea we had was, Okay,
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people have seen this archive of Julia, you know, the
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her cooking lessons have been repeated thousands of times and
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you know, people love watching them. But how fun to
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deconstruct the making of that show of the French Chef
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from the very beginning. And we have the opportunity to
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do that because the producer Russ Morash is still around,
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and we found the stage manager Alex Pirie, and you know,
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sat them down and had them take us through what
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it was like to put together this show, this groundbreaking
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show in nineteen six, and it was so fun, you know,
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to get the scenes of the kind of makeshift studio
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that they had and the photographs that Julia's husband took
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behind the scenes. I mean, I think people going to
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a documentary they want to experience a world, you know,
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they want to be immersed in a world that they
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didn't necessarily know. They may know the characterization of Julia,
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they may cook some of Julia's food, but do they
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really understand Julia's world and what it took to become
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Julia child. And that's what we were trying to get at.
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Yeah, what I was, what I found so wonderful about
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the film was that, you know, my experience with Julia's obviously,
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I know her growing got my mom had the book
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and everything. I probably saw her on TV once or twice,
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but it was Julia, and it was Julie Julia, Julia
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that the midl Street Julia, Yeah, Yeah, which was a
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fantastic film, but that was the introduction to her story,
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and it kind of skims over a lot of stuff
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because it's you know, it's a it's a movie. But
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what you guys did was you went so deep into
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it and I really didn't realize how groundbreaking she truly was.
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I mean she she changed how America cooked it was,
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uh and also was you know, a women's rights icon
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as well. But before we keep going, what did how
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did Julia come? How did you decide on Julia and
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and said, Okay, we're going to spend three four years
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with Julia? And how long did it take?
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Yeah, I mean you could say it took it.
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It was three years from the time that we sort
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of first considered maybe doing it and the time the
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film came out. But like the first year of that
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is just trying to make the whole thing happen and
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trying to get someone who's going to fund it, and
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trying to get the various entities, mainly the Julia Child
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Foundation as well as WGBH, the the Boston PBS station
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that had you know, rights to so much of that archive.
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We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
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and now back to the show.
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Like getting everyone on board kind of took a year
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and then two years basically to make the film, and
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like the decision was as for the reasons that you said,
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because because Julia was groundbreaking and groundbreaking in ways that
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we're going to let us in our film show the
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context of like what was the crappy food that Americans
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were eating in the pre Julia era? What was the
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vision of women on television that was being that we're
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you know, being elevated before Julia came on the scene. Like,
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in order to understand how big a leap she made,
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you had to know what the world was before, and
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that gave us the opportunity in our film to like
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set those contexts.
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And we knew because we know those worlds, like we
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know about food.
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And we know about sexism, So we understood that we
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would be able so that it would actually be pretty
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entertaining to lay that stuff out into film form.
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Yeah. And what I loved also is that you you
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really focused on the love story, like her love story
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with her husband is it's just beautiful. On what he
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did was groundbreaking as well, a man of his generation
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to just push her in the into the spotlight and
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he was happy in the background. Is so it was,
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like you said it in the documentaries, like that just
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doesn't that that didn't happen at those guys.
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Yeah, yeah, no, I mean we are attracted to story
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to subjects who have a good love story, and certainly
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the Paul and Julia's story is fantastic because it starts
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out with Paul being the one who is opening up
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Julia to the world. You know, she had lived a
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rather privileged and sheltered life until she volunteered for World
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War Two and met Paul in the in Salon where
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they were both posted. And you know, he was a
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worldly guy ten years old, knew about art culture, knew
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about food, you know. So when they married and moved
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to France for his job with the State Department, that's
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when Julia just blossomed and discovered her passion for food
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and started cooking for Paul, which was really good for him.
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And we have, you know, a scene in the film
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kind of illustrating some of the benefits that Paul and
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Julia's love affair in France. And then, as you said,
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something unusual happened. Paul's career was in decline, he had
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left the State Department. He really didn't have anything to do.
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They'd moved back to the United States, and Julia suddenly
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her cookbook after twelve years, is published, and she goes
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on television and becomes a kind of superstar, and Paul's
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reaction to that was just to help her every step
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of the way, to believe in her, believe even her
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when she was writing the book that nobody else thought
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was a good idea, and to believe in her when
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she became a superstar, and to continue to help her
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for the next three decades. It's kind of extraordinary.
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It's extremely extraordinary. And the other thing I found that
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watching the documentary is that she was absolutely fearless, like
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she threw herself into whatever, and she didn't care what
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anyone else said. How old was she when she started
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in this stage of her life. Wasn't she in her
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early fifty as.
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She was fifty years old when she first showed up
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on television, Like Julia was not famous until she was fifty,
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which truthfully is another part of the story that we
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really loved, and you know, just like a good reminder
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for audiences and particularly kind of young women in the
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audience to see, like, no, you actually don't have to
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have had it all together and be ready to break
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out when you're twenty two. There are all kinds of
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different paths people can take.
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And you know, so that that was.
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You mean, you didn't have it all figured out at
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twenty two. I mean, I obviously, I mean.
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Yeah, I mean I think I think there's something about
431
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the fact that Julia did have this later in life
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success that gave her the sort of confidence that she had,
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you know, and once once she got there, she really
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she really was pretty strong in her beliefs about how
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to carry on in her life, just in all aspects,
436
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and yet also someone who evolved and who changed. And
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we love that part of the story as well. It's
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not just like, oh, Julia went on television in the
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early sixties, it became famous and that was it. I mean,
440
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there were there were many more chapters and some challenges
441
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when she was kind of being pushed off the air
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by PBS, and how she met that challenge, and and
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how she evolved in her thinking on social issues like homosexuality,
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which was you know, pretty major in the nineteen eighties,
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and and she really changed her thinking and her prejudice
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frankly about homosexuals. So those parts, those aspects of the
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story of Julia's ongoing evolution, you know, really appealed to us.
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The persistence that Julia had is absolutely remarkable to be
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on a book for twelve years. I mean many filmmakers
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listening and writers listening could really feel that because I said, yeah,
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we were on the book for twelve to sit and
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to do anything for twelve years, and to keep going
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and to keep going no matter what when there was
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no hope. There was really no There was no there
455
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was no signpost anywhere that said this was a good idea.
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It's not like you're making a movie and they're like, well,
457
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other movies have been made before and made money or
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were successful. There was nothing like it, and she's just
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kept trying until finally someone opened the do it for her.
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It was just it was just so inspiring to see that.
461
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Yeah, I mean I think that Julia and the French
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colleagues that she was working with to develop that book
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really felt strongly that what they were doing was a
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good idea and would be valuable for home cooks. And
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that was that was the deep impetus, as you say,
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there was there was nobody saying this is.
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A fantastic idea.
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They had gotten an extremely small advance money that would
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have long run out, but in the first year, let
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alone the twelfth year, it wasn't like there was you know,
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nobody was chomping at the bit waiting for this book.
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They would just like had this vision like, oh, this would.
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Be amazing, And I think they felt like they would
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get some real fulfillment out of putting on you know,
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putting down on paper, like some of the amazing French
476
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techniques of cooking that you know that are well known
477
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in France and very much not known in the US.
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Like they thought it would be a worthwhile thing to do.
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And that's where it started. Not so much.
480
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I mean like, yes, of course they want commercial success.
481
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As the twelve years go on, that is seeming less
482
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and less likely you want.
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And I think that's that's a lesson that everyone listening
484
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needs to take on. It's like, if you believe in
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your stuff is something that's just so believed and the
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world hasn't caught up to that idea. It took the
487
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.279
world twelve years to catch up to that idea essentially,
488
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.480
and then it took another It took a little bit
489
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.680
longer for them to catch up with her being a
490
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:26.799
fifty year old TV star on PB I mean, it's
491
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:31.200
just insane. It's like a PBS in Boston somewhere. It's
492
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:33.359
like she makes an omelet and then all of a
493
00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:35.960
sudden like, hey, you want to show. Okay, we don't
494
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:37.599
know how to do a show, let's just do this.
495
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.480
And it just it's like if you would write it
496
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:43.039
in a screenplay, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense.
497
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:45.680
Well, you know the part of that that I just
498
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.559
love is that, you know, Julia just connected with the
499
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:53.839
audience immediately. It wasn't like the executive said, oh, we've
500
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.720
got a potential star here, let's invest in this Julia
501
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:01.359
child person. Let's bring her along. You know, No, they said, okay,
502
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.960
we'll do three shows. Well, you know, we'll pay you
503
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:07.599
a minimal amount of money. And you know, she was
504
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:13.160
instantly just memorable. You know, people were like, who is
505
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:18.599
that woman? That crazy voice? But she's funny, but and
506
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.720
she knows a lot and we loved watching her. So
507
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.680
to me, it's this example of going direct to the audience,
508
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:30.039
and you know that that's how it happened. It was
509
00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:32.079
not the TV execs who were doing it.
510
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.839
And what I loved also that you mentioned in the
511
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.960
documentary was the SNL skit by Dan Aykroyd, which I
512
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.240
always wondered. I'm like, I wonder if she actually got
513
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.200
a kick out of that or not? And it's and
514
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:46.559
the answer is in the documentary you were like, oh, okay,
515
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.960
she brought it out constantly and constantly bringing it out
516
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.599
to show people. That must have been I mean, she
517
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.240
was an icon. She was even in the seventy five.
518
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.240
Was that seventy five?
519
00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:57.559
Yes?
520
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.599
And remember, I mean remember what you know what SNL
521
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.240
in the seventies was what a huge big deal.
522
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:05.720
It was just like, you know, one.
523
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.880
Of our characters mentions that, Like in the early days
524
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:11.640
of Julia's show in the mid sixties, everyone would be like,
525
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.400
did you see Julia Child? You know this week, have
526
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.359
you seen Julia's episode? And of course that's what SNL
527
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:20.079
was by the mid seventies, like every Sunday, I mean
528
00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:23.240
I was a kid at that point and every Sunday
529
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.039
it was just like breaking down what happened on SNL
530
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.599
the night before. And I think that Julia understood that
531
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:34.039
having dan Aykroyd impersonate her was a real sign of
532
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:35.880
you know, cultural.
533
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:39.920
So she appreciated that.
534
00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.440
But like, you know, the problem, I mean, at the time,
535
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.079
I think it's so fantastic. The problem is the decades
536
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.960
have gone on that Betsy and I kind of came
537
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:51.480
to discover that people who are familiar with Julia vaguely
538
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.119
like that's what they remember that, you know, a caricature
539
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:00.640
of a completely zany, completely off the rails.
540
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:04.599
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
541
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.799
and now back to the show.
542
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.759
Like drunk lady, you know, with the chicken, and like
543
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:17.000
you know.
544
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:20.000
Judi Child actually was a lot more than that. Not
545
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:23.920
only was she a true expert in food and bringing
546
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.519
that expertise to Americans like in a way that mattered.
547
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.440
So we are amused by that, as Julia was, but
548
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.960
we also wanted to, you know, the whole point of
549
00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:33.640
the film is kind of to tell you what the
550
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.519
real story is behind that caricature.
551
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.839
Yeah. Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job doing that.
552
00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:43.319
Now did you learn what life lessons did you learn
553
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:45.519
from Julia? I mean, because you I mean, when you
554
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.279
go into when you go into a subject matter like this,
555
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:49.839
like with RPG, that you you have to something has
556
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:52.359
to rub off on you. So what was that one?
557
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.000
I'll tell you one. You know, I like to cook,
558
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.799
but often weeks go by before I really do cook,
559
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.480
and and sometimes my ambition gets the better of me,
560
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:04.960
like I think I can create some great thing, and
561
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:08.319
it's like it's ten of seven and the guests are
562
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.920
coming soon, and I'm like doing four different dishes, and
563
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:14.920
often I'll be disappointed with how one or the other
564
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:21.279
came out, and I in the past would apologize, oh,
565
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.079
you know, like this corn thing, it was supposed to
566
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:29.480
rise more or whatever. I am never ever apologizing again
567
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.079
for a dish that I serve to people, I mean,
568
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:36.160
and I love that attitude. Julia's hall point was, Oh,
569
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.079
you make a mistake, you make the best of it.
570
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:42.599
You turn the potato soup flee into something else, and
571
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.960
you just serve it. You know. So you turn the
572
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.960
dessert that flopped into a soup and you serve it
573
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:51.160
and you not apologize. So that's my life lesson. And I,
574
00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:54.480
once the pandemic and the shutdown is over and I
575
00:31:54.559 --> 00:32:02.480
actually am entertaining regularly again, I plan to implement that advice.
576
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:09.359
And again a before her time feminist message, because like apologizing.
577
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:12.000
For one right, it's a big lady problem.
578
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.559
Like it just you know, you do have an inclination
579
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:19.400
when you're presenting what you've done to a room full
580
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.960
of people to start pre telling them like everything that's.
581
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:24.640
Wrong with what you did.
582
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:28.160
Oh, this was actually supposed to be that I used
583
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.240
baking flower when I was supposed to.
584
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:32.240
Use fell on the floor.
585
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.240
Just serve the book like, and Julia was like, you know,
586
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:40.440
we all make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, but
587
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.279
that said, don't like apologize for them, just like you know,
588
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.319
say that's what you know, say you meant this to be.
589
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:46.119
That kind of dish.
590
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.680
It's like everyone like, if you, if you did it,
591
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.440
if you give it a little hype like the boys
592
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.920
often do, that's gonna that's gonna change people's perception of
593
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.640
it and of you, and it's a great it's a
594
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:57.720
great Julia Lesson.
595
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.440
Yeah, as you know, I mean, I was I was
596
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.720
raised surrounded by women. So I have no brothers or sisters,
597
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:05.799
but I was just women, very strong women around me
598
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.960
at all times. And now with my family, my daughters
599
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.440
and my wife, I have no testosterone at all in
600
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.519
my life, just the cat, and the cat got fixed.
601
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.640
So I feel that And as a young man, you
602
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:24.400
never ever taught to apologize for anything. You just go
603
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.440
with it, you roll with it. And as I'm teaching
604
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.720
my girls that, I'm like, no, no, I'm teaching them
605
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.480
to be strong women, and to teach them from a
606
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:35.799
male side point of view and also from a female
607
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.400
side point of view with my wife of like, no,
608
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:40.720
this is the world and this is what you're going
609
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.960
to be walking into. And my god, I can't even
610
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.599
imagine walking into the world that she walked into or
611
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.599
she lived in, you know, it's such a different world.
612
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:51.640
Yeah, and then imagine the world in France. I mean,
613
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.559
we love that part of the film in France to
614
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:59.240
kind of create how what kitchens were like there, I mean,
615
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:06.599
talk about a macho, sexist environment Julia Child walked into,
616
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:12.159
you know, going to the cord Umbleau with the master chef,
617
00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:16.440
and the students were all male gis from the US
618
00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:20.039
who were using the gi build to further their education
619
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.320
before they went back to cooking restaurants in the United States.
620
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.760
And Julia is the only woman. We love that. And
621
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:30.760
she seemed to have a kind of confidence about her,
622
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.199
which I think was you know, just part of her makeup.
623
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.920
You know that she she didn't mind being six foot two.
624
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:44.119
Some women really don't like being so tall. Didn't seem
625
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.239
to bother her. She married a man who was shorter
626
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:51.400
than she was. I mean, she didn't have that self consciousness.
627
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:54.960
And I think also in breaking into a male world
628
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.239
that she found herself in France, she was just very
629
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.440
matter of fact about it. I want to learn how
630
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.840
to cook. This is the best place to do it,
631
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:04.079
and please, you know, let me into this class, and
632
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:05.880
of course impress them all.
633
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.400
And again that fearlessness and what she said, because she
634
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:13.039
towered over most men, I mean easily. I think that's
635
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.400
also probably a little bit where the confidence came from,
636
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.760
because she'd always towered over over men's in many ways.
637
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.880
I mean, this is just me, my my psychoanalysis of it,
638
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.880
but you know, she does feel that that kind of vibe.
639
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:27.480
And you see these pictures of her in the in
640
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.559
the documentary where she's these guys are just so small,
641
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.519
She's just towering over and it's just the confidence to
642
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.119
do whatever she wants.
643
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:39.159
It's it's pretty interesting, is even though all of the
644
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.800
ways that you know, we're kind of socialized as women
645
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.000
sometimes to be a little apologetic or a little demure
646
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.159
or not show yourself, you know, off into the world.
647
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:53.360
And Julia's self self confidence and the feelness and the
648
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:58.599
and and the being her selfness is exactly what the
649
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.960
audience has responded to. They completely got that this was
650
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:06.119
an authentic person. They saw that they're seeing the real Julia.
651
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.800
They liked that she was fearless, They liked that she
652
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:12.360
wasn't apologizing, they liked that she was loud, even like
653
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.960
everything that was real about Juia, which is a lot
654
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.000
of things that girls actually aren't taught to be even still,
655
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:21.719
is actually what the public really responded to, and not
656
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.760
just women like guys liked her too.
657
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.360
Yeah, And that's the thing. I love the word to use,
658
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.079
authentic because that's exactly what she was RBG is that
659
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.760
they were who they were, and they were comfortable in
660
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:36.159
their own skin and weren't trying to impress. They weren't
661
00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.119
trying to be something they're not. They weren't putting an
662
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:42.360
Instagram filter on themselves in many ways, and that's what
663
00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:45.239
people are drawn to. I mean, in all of your work,
664
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:49.320
even doing news and other things throughout your career, have
665
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:51.440
you noticed the same thing I have is that the
666
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:55.000
people who get the attention some not all the times,
667
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.639
but they are who they are and they're not trying
668
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.760
to be something they're not. Generally speaking, especially the important
669
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:04.400
people meaning important people, meaning that people who are changing
670
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.519
the world, people are being of service to the world,
671
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:11.039
like RBG, like Julia, because I mean, you can't fake
672
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.079
Julie like that was that's a hell of a performance.
673
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:16.039
If she's pulled that off for so many years, that's
674
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:18.880
who she was. Do you find that that's one of
675
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:20.840
those common factors in all the work that you've done
676
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.519
over the years.
677
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.119
It's an interesting question. I'm not sure that I would
678
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.119
want to make that generalization across the board.
679
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.360
No, it's case by case, right, I.
680
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:35.320
Think it's somewhat case by case. I mean, look, people
681
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.960
are very different. There's such a huge variety of people,
682
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:44.639
and sometimes you know, you'll what was so and so, like, Oh,
683
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.559
they're exactly like what they are, you know, what you
684
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:49.920
would imagine on television, and you know, you know, you
685
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.559
can say that, but that's not always the case. There
686
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.880
are certainly people who have a pretty good public and
687
00:37:57.199 --> 00:38:00.239
I think that's you know, sometimes there are interests of
688
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.159
introverted people who then get in front of a camera
689
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.920
and they kind of transform into something else. And I'm
690
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.480
not saying I'm gonna call that phony. I'm just saying
691
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.719
that's the way they are, and then they get off
692
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.440
camera and Okay, that's it. You know, they're moving on
693
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.599
to something else. I mean that was not the case
694
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:24.639
with Julia. I mean, Julia was an extremely outgoing people person,
695
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.199
loved being on television and loved meeting people in the
696
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.880
grocery store. It didn't really matter to her. So I
697
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.639
would say it's true of her, and it's and it's
698
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.480
you know, I think Justice Ginsberg a very different character
699
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.840
of you know, really was an introvert who later in
700
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:47.079
life had this amazing celebrity. But she was pretty true
701
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:54.119
to her personality I think throughout and was very much
702
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:57.760
the same, you know, off and on camera, I think
703
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:00.440
in a way. But I wouldn't want to un realize
704
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.519
it to everybody, do you agree, Julie.
705
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.320
Yeah, yeah, well it was when it was when Alex
706
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:08.039
brought in our broadcast news careers.
707
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:08.360
That we were both like.
708
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:13.920
Some people that were I mean, you know, look, there
709
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.920
are people that have gotten called out in recent you're
710
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:23.360
being the same nice guy on television that they in
711
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.360
real life that they might have appeared.
712
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.199
To be on your morning television show. So I'm just.
713
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.199
Saying there is there's that, Yes, there was this, Yes,
714
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:32.920
Juliu had a nice smile on her face as you
715
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:35.199
were talking back. She's like, Okay, I got yep, it's
716
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:40.159
in my head. I know it is. Now I have
717
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:42.679
to ask you, what do you think Julia would do
718
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:47.719
with today's technology of social media, of all of that stuff.
719
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:49.960
Do you think she would have Would she have an
720
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.519
Instagram account even in the later the years of her life,
721
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.079
would she be out there really kind of connecting with
722
00:39:56.119 --> 00:40:00.000
her audience in that way. We'll be right back after
723
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.760
or a word from our sponsor and now back to
724
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:06.840
the show.
725
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.639
In your opinion, well, there's an interesting mixed thing like
726
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:12.119
of Jua.
727
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:14.119
My husband actually always likes to talk about it.
728
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:16.840
There's there's some uh, there's some hypothetical about like what
729
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:18.039
Napoleon had had.
730
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.840
To be fifty two? And like, well, of course this
731
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:22.679
is sort of cellar.
732
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.400
What if Julia had had I think I think even
733
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:28.280
might be an esnl skin, But what if Julia had
734
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:29.400
had Instagram?
735
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.159
There's sort of there's sort of a two part answer.
736
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:35.599
One is that the whole love of food on Instagram
737
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:38.920
is really the world that Julia created, that like, food
738
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:41.199
is this amazing thing that so much it's not just
739
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.760
what we get to nourish ourselves, but you know, it's
740
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.599
like to be celebrated and shown off and like so
741
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:49.880
that's like really validation of who Julia was.
742
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.679
On the other hand, Julia had a role. We mentioned
743
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.440
it in the film.
744
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:56.039
She called it French rules, which is when your food
745
00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:58.719
is served and still hot, you eat it immediately. You
746
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.679
do not stop what you're doing to take the most
747
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.599
glomorous overhead. Food is meant to be eaten, not photographs.
748
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.920
So on both sides of that, Now, did you guys
749
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:15.639
find yourself eating more? Why do you mean this thing?
750
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:18.840
Because I found myself wanting to eat, Whereas those beautiful
751
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.679
food footage that you guys were shooting I knew were
752
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.840
an archival because I was looking like, oh that's fresh.
753
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.599
Did you find yourself like, I mean, did you find
754
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.239
a new respect for food? Did you find a new uh?
755
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.159
Just you know all of that while making.
756
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:36.880
This Yeah, I mean we have to say that we
757
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.800
filmed most of it before the shutdown. We filmed a
758
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.320
lot of it in twenty and nineteen, including an amazing
759
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:49.320
trip to France that was really so much fun to
760
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:53.159
be to visit Julius haunts and to eat some great food.
761
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:58.199
But you know, I think when the shutdown happened, all
762
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.039
of us changed our relationship and chip to food and
763
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:06.480
to cooking, and you know, I found myself going to
764
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.800
the farmer's market, you know, shopping outside and thinking more
765
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:15.639
about fresh food. And definitely, you know, both my husband
766
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:19.360
and I were just cooking for each other every single night.
767
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.239
And one night we've made like a list of all
768
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.639
of our regular dishes that we liked, you know, that
769
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:28.400
we're in our rotation, and they were like about I
770
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.079
don't know, forty five of them that were in our
771
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.239
now in our rotation, and I think so we really
772
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:39.039
expanded our possibilities. And I guess that was partly about
773
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.480
the pandemic, and I think partly because all day long,
774
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:46.599
you know, I was being immersed in this world of food.
775
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.159
In the middle of the pandemic. We managed to do
776
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.440
the high end cinematography that you see throughout the film
777
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:58.719
that which was last summer that we filmed under somewhat
778
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:03.039
difficult circums dances with everybody masked or whatever, and created
779
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:11.960
a studio down in Chelsea and replicated Julia's kitchen. Our producer,
780
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:17.639
Holly Siegel, did an incredible job basically having a shop
781
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.639
construct Julia's kitchen and sourced all the copper pots and
782
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.320
the Garland stove and everything else, and then filmed for
783
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.280
about a week with our cinematographer, Claudi Rashki, And then
784
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.880
similarly in France, we were filming with a photographer using
785
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:41.239
macro technology, really tight shooting and slow mo of the
786
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:45.719
food that was Nanda Brettelard in Paris. We'd intended for
787
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.559
the two of them to be together or to but
788
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.440
because of the pandemic that was not possible, so we
789
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:55.079
did the parachute remotely. So there was a lot of
790
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.119
thinking about food, and I guess it did influence us.
791
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:04.719
Yeah, And we brought in a fruit food stylist and
792
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:09.000
cook Susan Spungen, who not only prepared all the film
793
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.360
and actually you prepared all the food and you actually
794
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:13.159
see her in the film sometimes because it's kind of
795
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.039
her hands that are rolling out the dough and that
796
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:19.960
sort of thing, but helped us in the substantive quest
797
00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:23.760
of figuring out which Julia Child recipes would work well
798
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.440
with which scenes. Like one example is we wanted to
799
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:30.800
show something kind of messing up during the phase that
800
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:33.519
they're experimenting with all different recipes and we talked to
801
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.519
Susan about like, oh, what could we show that would
802
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:37.800
like screw up all the time. She came up with
803
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.159
hollandaiy sauce and how it breaks and looks all curdly
804
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.679
and disgusting, and then you know, for looking for the
805
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:48.880
sort of love in the afternoon sensual scene, we asked
806
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.000
her and we had a number of discussions. You know,
807
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.800
what is the So what dessert is like the sexiest,
808
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.880
like what do you think? And we went in thinking
809
00:44:57.920 --> 00:44:59.519
it was going to be chocolate, because when you think
810
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:01.880
desserts like chocolate is the first in your mind. But
811
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.679
then she described to us that pair of tart and
812
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:09.159
every step, all the rolling the dough and the poaching
813
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:13.920
the pears in red wine and that custard. Now I'm
814
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.119
going to have to go anyt But so when you
815
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:18.039
talk about like were we in, I mean, you know,
816
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:25.159
just the enthusiasm for even certain certain food groups definitely
817
00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:27.559
grew during the production of this film.
818
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:30.000
Yeah, that tart. When I was watching it is it
819
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:35.679
is a fairly sensual tart. I had no idea tart
820
00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:37.920
could be sensual. I was watching I was like, Wow,
821
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:39.360
I want to, I want to, I want to have
822
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:45.000
a slice of that right now. Now, where can people
823
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:47.280
watch the film? And when?
824
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.960
As we released, Yes, people can see Julia in theaters
825
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:57.239
in New York and Los Angeles starting November twelfth, and
826
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:00.679
then it will be rolled out in many minut theaters
827
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:05.920
in cities around the country in the subsequent weeks. Uh
828
00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:12.280
So by Thanksgiving, uh it should be available. You want
829
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:16.119
to see it before your Thanksgiving meal. You might want
830
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.320
to have a snack just beforehand so you're not too
831
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:24.400
hungry during it or whatever. I think it's a good
832
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.480
it's it's potential good Thanksgiving fair.
833
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.840
Now, And what advice would you give a filmmaker who
834
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.360
wants to get into the documentary game?
835
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.519
WHOA hard It's a hard question.
836
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:42.440
I mean, I think you know there's On the one hand,
837
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.679
technology is such that people could be experimenting with making
838
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:51.440
short films on their own. That probably doesn't mean that
839
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.639
that's something that's going to be headed for distribution. The
840
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.800
other thing is to just you know, get there. There
841
00:46:56.840 --> 00:47:01.320
are a lot of documentary production companies all around, and
842
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:05.920
getting in on the ground floor in the interning in
843
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:10.880
production assistant mode is kind of always the way to start.
844
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.039
But like learning learning, some technical skills is kind of important.
845
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:18.360
Some shooting and editing skills is great these days, as
846
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.239
well as sort of some substantive knowledge. We always try
847
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:23.559
to tell people it's actually good to know, like when
848
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:27.639
people ask, oh, should I major in film or communications
849
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.559
in my undergraduate college? Like maybe, but also it's actually
850
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:33.559
good to learn some things about the world and to
851
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.599
understand something about business or science or politics or history,
852
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:41.320
like you know, especially for documentaries, like you need to
853
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.840
have some grounding in the real world before you're maybe
854
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:48.719
going out and trying to say something about the world,
855
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:51.239
which at its heart is what may be a documentary
856
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:53.679
is all about.
857
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:56.840
Now, I'm going to ask you a couple questions, ask
858
00:47:56.920 --> 00:47:59.079
all of my guests, what is the lesson that took
859
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:00.880
you the longest to learn learn, whether in the film
860
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:05.480
business or in life.
861
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:08.480
Thank you so much, Calex.
862
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:16.119
Let me go, I think of one while you got one,
863
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.679
but you go ahead, you go back, Okay. I was
864
00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:21.760
just gonna say, to not worry too I mean, in
865
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:23.519
some ways it fits in with the messages we were
866
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:26.440
saying earlier to not worry too much about things that
867
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:27.960
go wrong, Like.
868
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.679
When something goes a little wrong, that's all right.
869
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.639
Things have gone wrong in every film that we've made,
870
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.880
and you it comes round like the biggest problem is
871
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:40.840
what happens after the thing goes wrong, where everyone is
872
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:43.880
so panicked about the thing that went wrong and trying
873
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.119
to convince themselves and the others that it is not
874
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.400
their fault. But then a cascade of things begin to
875
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.239
go wrong from there. So like things go wrong, forgive
876
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.159
yourself and move on.
877
00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:02.639
Yeah, I mean I took the heart are Rbg's advice
878
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:08.000
which she got from her mother, basically that don't waste
879
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:13.079
your time on anger, you know, try to move past it.
880
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:15.679
And yes, it doesn't mean you're not going to be angry.
881
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.199
Of course you're going to get angry, you're a human being,
882
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:22.840
but try not to get consumed by anger and just
883
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.719
find the way around it because it's a waste of
884
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:28.360
your energy.
885
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:31.719
Now, in any of your projects, there must have been
886
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.039
a day that the whole world came crashing down around you.
887
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.000
What was that event and how did you get past
888
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.280
it and what did you use to get past it?
889
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:48.440
Well, I would say my whole world came crashing down
890
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:50.840
around me when I lost a job in a very
891
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:54.480
high profile way in two thousand and five, when I
892
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:59.000
was at CBS News, and you know, it was kind
893
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.800
of a wake up for me.
894
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:06.039
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
895
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:10.960
and now back to the show.
896
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.679
But opened up doors to a whole new life because
897
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:20.320
I had been an executive, and you know, executive jobs
898
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:26.480
are risky. You know, you're always you're always the person
899
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.920
you know that gets blamed when something goes wrong underneath
900
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:33.039
you when you know. That's sort of what happened to me.
901
00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:37.039
But in general, I think executive jobs are tough. And
902
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:44.239
I realized that I so loved making stories. Telling stories.
903
00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:47.519
That's what I really love more than I loved being
904
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:49.840
an executive, although you know, I think it was okay
905
00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:52.760
at it, but I really loved doing that and so
906
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:56.159
that allowed me to pivot back to what I love
907
00:50:56.239 --> 00:51:07.480
doing the most. And Julie, yeah, crash, she's never crashed. Clashing.
908
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:11.360
The crashing experience, to me, the thing that I associate.
909
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:15.960
Most with that is like when you know something that.
910
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:19.440
You thought was gonna happen like doesn't happen, And that
911
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:21.519
actually happens a lot in a world, like where you
912
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:23.639
thought you had to shoot and then you didn't, and
913
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.199
the person cancels or you thought you had a booking
914
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:28.559
and someone was going to cooperate with something and they didn't.
915
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:30.519
And sort of similar to what back to be saying,
916
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:32.960
like in the end you I.
917
00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:35.360
Almost think almost everything that happens, there's a way in
918
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:35.960
the end takeing like.
919
00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:37.760
Oh, it was good that that did. It was great
920
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:38.920
that we didn't actually.
921
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:40.400
Get that personal because it would have best, it wouldn't
922
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:41.440
have let the next thing.
923
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:42.400
It was so amazing.
924
00:51:42.519 --> 00:51:49.880
So and last question, uh, Three documentaries that all documentarian
925
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:50.480
should watch.
926
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:56.039
Oh my god, all right, Hoop Dreams, Yes to my mind.
927
00:51:56.119 --> 00:52:00.480
And I saw the re mastering of Hoop Dreams, thinking
928
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:02.480
oh my god, this thing is so long. You know,
929
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.599
I think it's like three hours or something, and I
930
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:08.280
was thinking maybe it's too long. It is it's just masterful.
931
00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:13.679
It's unbelievable and was so lucky to see it again recently.
932
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.000
All right, that's one documentary.
933
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:21.119
See I think I'm going to say Waltz with Basher.
934
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:26.079
I really recommend that to everyone. It's an animated doc
935
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.599
that came out probably around two thousand and eight something
936
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:32.320
like that. That's like just telling a story in a
937
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:38.920
really new way, but that feels really emotionally profound.
938
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:42.119
So that's one that I think.
939
00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:45.559
Of and one more. Any of any of you, I
940
00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:47.880
won't put you on the on the spot for three each.
941
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:59.320
Okay, there's so many, like what have I like?
942
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:03.119
For me, it was like searching for Sugarman? Uh? Which
943
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:05.880
was that was a great one? And Walking the is
944
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:07.880
it walking the line or the one with about the
945
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.760
type rope guy? Between the twin Hours.
946
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:16.599
We both loved Raoul Pex I Am not your Negro.
947
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:17.599
I Am not your Negro.
948
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:22.760
Really different take on an archival. It's like an ray,
949
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.639
it's an archival film. It tells me something about American history.
950
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:31.719
I really like stories. Stories we tell you know that
951
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:37.000
Sarah poly film, which I thought was just really pushing
952
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:40.400
the boundaries of storytelling in a way that works like
953
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:43.519
sometimes I think the boundaries get pushed in a way
954
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:48.519
that concuse me. I thought that was Wow, what an
955
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:52.159
interesting way to tell a first person film. I don't know,
956
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.039
I like that one.
957
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.000
Betsy and Julie so many But thank you guys again
958
00:53:57.079 --> 00:53:59.239
so much for being on the show. I truly appreciated it,
959
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.840
and I hope everybody goes out and sees Julia And
960
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:04.119
if you haven't seen RBG you have to go see
961
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:06.280
RBG as well. So thank you guys for doing what
962
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.320
you're doing, and please continue making amazing documentary. So thank you.
963
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:11.800
We will thank you.
964
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:15.119
I want to thank Julian Betsy for coming on the
965
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.920
show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive today.
966
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:20.400
Thank you so much. If you want to get links
967
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.119
to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how
968
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:25.760
to watch their new film Julia, head over to the
969
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:30.039
show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash for twelve.
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Thank you so much for listening guys, as always, keep
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on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
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Screenwriting dot tv.