Mike Williams: Hi everybody.
Kaley Clavell: Hello, good evening.
Margaret Boersma: Hello.
Mike Williams: Good evening. So, ⁓ this time we have a podcast name and so we're going to call this built by educators. So I want to say welcome to the second slash first episode of built by educators, a collab ed production. My name is Mike. I am a fifth grade teacher and the founder of collab ed. I'd like to do some introductions. So first, as I always do, I have to introduce the star of this salad. am genuinely green with envy every time she joins me on the mic. You're all lucky she continues to serve up bite-sized brilliance for us to chew on. She keeps this show crisp, keeps me from overdressing the conversation, and makes sure we don't wilt under the weight of big educational ideas. May introduce my good friend and co-host, Kaylee Clivell. Kaylee, welcome back.
Kaley Clavell: The kale salad. I'm happy to be here.
Mike Williams: And today, we're excited to welcome Margaret Boersma. Margaret has spent over three decades in education and now works globally through creative education in action, helping schools rethink creativity curriculum and the real life skills students need to thrive. In this episode, we're digging into technology, attention spans, testing cultures, essential life skills, and whether our classrooms reflect the world our students are actually living in. This conversation is rich. It's layered. It's going to challenge you. You might even say it's full of nutrients. Yes, that was intentional. Right, Kel? ⁓ We promise this will be a good episode for you, even if it takes a little chewing. Let's get into it. Margaret, welcome.
Margaret Boersma: Thank you.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, it is.
Mike Williams: Before we get started on the itinerary that we probably won't finish, could you tell us a little bit about your work and creative education in action?
Margaret Boersma: Okay, so thank you for having me first of all. This is very exciting. ⁓ My work. My work has evolved over the decades. I was ⁓ a teacher for many, many years from kindergarten to grade eight or eighth grade as you say. I'm Canadian. But I'm also Dutch-Canadian, so I also like to work internationally. I support leaders, entire schools, so that there's more capacity. So leadership capacity. And I'm just creating a roadmap for that, the leadership capacity roadmap. And it really deals with the real things that are going on in school. Very practical.
Kaley Clavell: it.
Margaret Boersma: I find that kids haven't really changed. It's the circumstances and the conditions that have changed. And we as educators and leaders in schools do not know how to handle that because, and it's not our fault, it's because we weren't equipped to deal with what the conditions are now. And they have, they're systemic, they're not one classroom oriented, and they are ⁓ They're also in our world. And so there's lots of alarms going off, not only in children who are, quote, misbehaving. There's a whole lot behind that we could unpack, but also in adults in the schools. And how do we deal with dysregulation? How do we deal with that lack of instructional time that happens because there's big emotions going off everywhere? And how do leaders... ⁓
Mike Williams: you
Kaley Clavell: you
Margaret Boersma: allow time to build the foundational skills so that students and adults can regulate and so that the academics are learned much faster. That's what I deal with and that's how I support schools.
Mike Williams: So that's really a great place to kind of, I think, start this conversation. ⁓ So for today's theme, I kind of put down, know, are we preparing students for the world they actually live in? And this conversation can go a couple of different ways. I think where I want to start is this. ⁓ I think that students... fundamentally haven't changed, if I heard you say that correctly, like, okay, but I do think that that something about the students has changed, right? And I think that a large play in that is this notion of social media and is this notion of really kind of attention span. So I think...
Margaret Boersma: Exactly.
Mike Williams: Yeah. I think the first question that I want to go after tonight, the first thing I'd like to talk about is how, or what are some of the things that we can do to modernize instruction without sacrificing depth and intellectual rigor? And listen, this was an easier first question than I asked last time. The first question I asked in the last podcast was how do we fix education? So I think, you know, you got off pretty easy here. So, so, I mean, you know, what, what do you think about, about that?
Margaret Boersma: Mmm.
Kaley Clavell: the
Margaret Boersma: You Can you just ask it one more time? Yes.
Mike Williams: Yeah, so like, I mean, what do we do in order to get the kids who are hardwired for 30 % or 30 second, 30 second videos, minute videos? How do we, what are some of the things we can do to get them educated and without sacrificing the depth or the rigor of what we do?
Margaret Boersma: Got it. Yeah, so what can we do about it when we have kids who seem to be the ones that have changed, when really it was the conditions that have changed the kids. So I'll unpack that a little bit and then get into the practical side of what can we do now, now that we have this, okay? So yes, you're right, the social media, ⁓ especially for slightly older children who have their own cell phones and their own devices, but babies have devices too, like parents give babies devices too. And so what ends up happening
Mike Williams: Guilty.
Margaret Boersma: So what ends up happening is the children are entertained a lot. They get addicted to the devices just like all their adult role models are, if I might be so blunt. And it's true, right? yeah, and so what ends up happening is they're used to instant gratification. They're used to quick snappy things and anything that requires deeper thought is they don't have the patience for it.
Kaley Clavell: It's true. Absolutely.
Margaret Boersma: Because it restructures their brain in some ways because teenagers have done research on this. ⁓ They can't read a book for an hour and a half, two hours at a time because it requires too much sustained concentration. ⁓ I think those are conditions and our children are reacting to the conditions. And so one thing that Hannah Beach and Tamara Stryjak say in their book, Reclaiming Our Students, which is an excellent book for dealing with all this stuff, is we have to make sure that our students are able to exhale. Because what happens when they get these devices is they're entertained. But it is not a way for children to work through their day and their emotions. and their relationships. That happens through free play and you can see it when you see children play. But when children are being entertained they're breathing in and in and in and they never have a chance to exhale. And so what ends up happening is their alarm systems start going off. And so in their book they really talk about what do you do with the bossy child, what do you do with the resistant child, what do you what causes it and then what What do you do with it? So I'll give you a real life example to get into the practical side of your question. I like to do projects in schools so that I continuously, I'm in the classroom. And that's really helpful for helping schools and the leaders in the schools because a lot of them don't get a chance to spend any amount of time in the classroom. And if you're just walking by a classroom or you do a walk through, it's not the same thing as trying to teach these kids who have this sort of an attention span and how do you get the academics across. So I did that with grade 7s a couple of months ago in January and I ended up putting a draft of a whole package together of how do you do this and I tested it on them.
Kaley Clavell: True. Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And it was amazing how they turned around. So I'll give you one practical example. ⁓ Well, I'll do it through games too. But this one example, a lot of us do sustained silent reading in class, at least a couple of times a week, hopefully. And ⁓ I said to them, instead of thinking about it like some people are interrupting me all the time, I can't concentrate. How about, I called it the concentration competition, how about you get a book, it's going to last, you know, for at least 20 minutes, so if you need to read it three times, fine, you're not going to get up and get another book, and you're not going to allow yourself to be interrupted by anyone. If someone comes to the door, you keep your eyes on your book. You don't look up. If the teacher calls someone to their desk, you don't look up. If somebody drops a pencil, you don't look up. Don't allow yourself to get interrupted. And then I was policing it ⁓ in the beginning. And ⁓ I said, OK, we're going to beat our own score and we're working as a class. And so I start the timer and three seconds later, somebody interrupts and everybody's out of it again. And I said, Nope, that was three seconds. We have to beat three seconds. Well, we got up to eight minutes and 17 seconds of sustained silent reading. And this is a class that couldn't focus for 30 seconds on anything. So, and we did that twice, two days in a row at the beginning of my half day class.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: and they ate out of the palm of my hand after that. It was such a 180. So in that exercise I was training them. I was training their impulse control. I was training their length of focusing and attention and their regulation. Bringing their regulation system down. And the whole unit that I was doing was called Notice Yourself Talk and I created it with them. And yeah, and so it's a very strong unit now. But we talk to ourselves all the time and it's the voice that means the most to us. And to be honest, what parents and teachers say when children are young, that becomes their self-talk. So we have to be very careful what we say.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. And Margaret, I'm, I'm glad for, well, a couple of things. ⁓ the building of the stamina is something that needs to be taught into. And I think that is, ⁓ just a teacher tip for teachers now of like, yeah, you have to retrain our brain now to not get that immediate validation that, that you were talking about. ⁓ I'm glad you said grade seven because sometimes in conversations about, you know, building the stamina and talking about attention span, we're really focusing on elementary school. And I think, you know, I made the transition from third grade to sixth grade this year. And a lot of these things still apply, right? Like, and even so a little more in middle school. And we, we tend to be taught or maybe just make an assumption that you know, games and ⁓ all of this type of like play with our minds is something that we do only in elementary schools. So it's refreshing to hear that, these things are, should apply to middle school. And guess what? They apply to high school too. Like kids are kids and these, ⁓ I mean, adults like game play as well, you know? So, I mean, I do, I would rather. spend time there, I teach a writing class and I do a game called We Will Write, which is like, we're all looking at the screen and different prompts are coming up and we're finding out different ways that we can write in different ways and we type it really fast and then we read each other's. It's like so much more engaging than ⁓ just some of this rote instruction. So I think what you're talking about right now is just really important on like. And the question Mike was asking before of like modernizing instruction. I think that's a great tangible way to modernize instruction is teaching, is being intentional about building stamina in students. Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: I call it proactive learning. We can't only be reactive. And in most of our teacher training, we are taught to be reactive in
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: in that type of training. if a child does something, ⁓ in the moment teaching, you know, and it doesn't work because the amygdala is engaged and anybody who witnessed somebody with a 10 per tantrum, nobody can, it's like they're part of it. So we're in our amygdala in that survival part of our brain when really if we could teach these lessons when they're in a state of calm, then they can access the thinking part of their brain, which is the prefrontal frontal cortex and that's what they need. So we need to teach these lessons proactively.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Mike Williams: You know, I'm listening to the two of you talk and, I'm curious to know where you both land on this subject. it seems as though we're talking about technology being a threat to the way education is. And, and I'm wondering if, because I happen to be on team tech. All right. And I'm going to say this. You know, not in a, and I told you, we would talk about things that we, so, so I happen to be on team tech because I think that, you know, where, look, I mean, I don't know where we're headed. Like, I don't know where this world is headed, but if you told me that I could have a personal assistant, that was entirely on a computer 10 years ago, I might've laughed at you. Right now, it is single-handedly helped me build this not-for-profit, right? So I tend to embrace technology and I tend to use screens a lot in my classroom. ⁓ So I'm wondering, do we... Do we continue down that road or do we, a way, and this is my opinion, take a step back and start removing some of the tech? Because I hear people say to me, and this is the law, I don't even know if there's a question in here, I ⁓ hear people say to me, well, it's important that kids pick up a book and read it. I hear people say to me, you know, it's important that they physically hold a pen and write pencil and write yet. The evidence suggests that these skills are not because all of our testing is going digital. All of our, all of our writing is essentially turning into typing. Right? So I'm curious to know.
Kaley Clavell: Digital. Yeah. Yep.
Mike Williams: Like, where's the balance? Where are we here? Like, yeah, there was a question in there somewhere. And if somebody wants to find it, I'll put it in there. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: I can respond if you like. Yes. Yeah, okay. All right. So I think, you know, in the last 30 years or so, ⁓ we have put such an emphasis on ⁓ computer, use of computers, use it, and we haven't really known, let alone taught boundaries.
Kaley Clavell: Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: And I think there's so much to be said about what's how the world has evolved because of tack in the last 30 years. It's astounding and it's miraculous. So I'm not saying You know, it's not all or nothing. I think we have to be aware of how it's impacting our children because they go from tech at school to tech at home to I had those grade sevens fill out maybe, I don't know, 30 or 40 little in three different columns skills that they would like to learn in their lives. And I said, only check three or three to five. Don't check all the boxes. And so they all had something they really wanted to and And so I said at the bottom of the sheet, said, what's stopping you? For example, is it time? Is it money? Is it other something else? And 98 % of them said it was time. And yet they can find the time if they wouldn't be on screen for whatever the statistic is, five to six hours a day. So also in a school I was in in December, some grade eight teachers had just taught a simple cooking lesson in the staff room. And so it was lunchtime and they were reflecting on this lesson and they said, these grade eights could not do the pouring action from a measuring cup to a bowl.
Kaley Clavell: ⁓ my gosh.
Margaret Boersma: So I'm saying there are many skills that we need in our everyday lives that we're missing out on because these kids are on screen all the time and they're not developing life skills.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Right. Mike, Mike just, ⁓ posted a picture recently of his kids playing in the dirt rather than playing ⁓ on their iPads. So I'm happy to say that Mike's moving in the right direction, but right. Listen though, like, and I hear it's a real life frustration of, ⁓ the balance between.
Margaret Boersma: Perfect. Perfect. They'll pick up the tag, don't worry.
Mike Williams: They were on their iPads tonight. was nice.
Kaley Clavell: the way, and I heard Mike say this before, like, yeah, we're required to test on a computer. But as a teacher, my mind always goes back to what is the purpose of this? Is this assignment to prepare them for this exam, or is this assignment to prepare them for the world, or is this assignment, is this tool a computer? useful for what we are doing right now and that's kind of the purpose why I'm using it, right? Like I think it's it requires a depth of a teacher to understand like
Margaret Boersma: be discerning for the purpose.
Kaley Clavell: Right. Is this a tool or is this to make it a little bit easier on me or easier on them or maybe it's quicker or like, and also making sure that we're giving things on paper as well. We can't lose that. And I hear parents all the time and through conversations, parents are always saying like, you know, I teach a writing class. So they're like, you know, but do you care about handwriting? And, and, and I feel like that's a lost art right now. And I'm like, you're right. Like, So there has to be some type of a balance of like, my class is we're writing it on paper, that is your draft, we're teaching you how to draft on paper, then we're going online and typing our final draft. And then the opposite the next time, right? So like there are different skills, like you're saying Margaret of like, need to know how to hold a pencil in my hand and write on paper. I needed to know how to organize my writing on paper as well. But I also need to know,
Mike Williams: All right.
Margaret Boersma: Good.
Kaley Clavell: how to open a Google Doc and type and know how to organize my thinking on there because that's the world that we live in. So I think right now teachers are just, that's a spiral in our minds constantly.
Mike Williams: So this is where.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: And this is where I'm going to break off with you, right? And not that we've ever disagreed on anything, you know, because, you know, let's go. You know, like, I hear you, but I also think that one of the things that we didn't get into was the fact that it's not only the kids right now that we're teaching that are tech driven, but it's also their parents. I am...
Kaley Clavell: Bring it Mike, bring it.
Mike Williams: I am at the age now where I think I just turned 43. I'm not really a hundred percent sure. And I'm starting to realize that I'm getting older and the parents who are coming in for conferences are not, right? And so I've read, know, I'm, I'm, I actually like to call it distinguished. Um, now this, um, this gray that's growing up the pride of my head. No, no, this is distinguished. Okay. Get it right. Um,
Margaret Boersma: They're getting younger.
Kaley Clavell: The balding that's happening. Right. There you go.
Mike Williams: But to your point, right, like if a parent challenges you and says, well, you really care about handwriting, right? I don't know how to justify that anymore because really the handwriting is something we could go the entire day without writing something. And when you were talking, Kaylee, I'm thinking to myself like,
Kaley Clavell: Yeah
Mike Williams: All right. What's something that I absolutely have to write? And the first thing that came to my mind was a grocery list. Yeah, no. ⁓ we have no tabs. Right. And so like I'm saying to myself, and here's where I get off the train of being difficult on this whole thing is I only think that like AI can be dangerous. Right. Every, every AI system comes with this disclaimer that
Margaret Boersma: Now you can have your notes in your...
Mike Williams: Anything I say could be wrong, right? Which is great because you have people going to AI for medical advice, for legal advice, like it's like going to Google, right? So, so like, I think that teaching these kids how to properly use these tools is going to propel them further in their world.
Kaley Clavell: I agree. But the problem is when the AI and these tools start to replace thinking and critical thinking and ⁓ problem solving. that's where, like, I gave an assignment today in my class. We were doing a short response, of course, preparing for our lovely state test. And one of my students used AI. It's a real thing. And I asked him, like, but do you
Mike Williams: you
Kaley Clavell: Do you, can you read back to me what you wrote? And he said, no. And I was like, so that's, that's where I have an issue. Like maybe we can use it for outlines. Maybe we can use it for, ⁓ coming up with a new word and learning that vocabulary. What I can't accept is that you're giving me something that you have no idea what it says. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Yep, no, I'm with you.
Margaret Boersma: And that's why I think it's important to think about how we ask students to show what they've learned. And I think the UDL, the Universal Design Learning is great because you get to give them different choices or their own choice. You could write a poem, you could do a dance, you could do a play, a scene from a play. You could do an art project, but I want to know the depth of your learning.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And then with that, they may need to be interviewed ⁓ because just sitting there or giving papers, especially at the university, that's all the way they do it. Most of them don't do anything else than we're assessing you by writing. And that's not really fair either because not everyone's a good writer, but they might have a great knowledge of what you've just taught the unit. So we do have to find other ways of
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: assessing but also other ways of getting the knowledge too. And I just, ⁓ sorry, I was just going to comment on your handwriting thing. I haven't looked it up but apparently there's research on why handwriting is important to learn especially when you're younger and it has to do with brain development. that's all I know about it but you might want to want to see if you can give an answer to your question.
Mike Williams: I am so, no, am stupid.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, I know. Sorry, Mike, let me. Mike, Mike's going to fight me after this.
Mike Williams: No, no. I'm used to stepping back. I'm married, so let's go.
Kaley Clavell: I know that there's research supporting that when you actually write something down, how it helps your memory and retention of the information. I know that, but yeah, I, that's something to.
Mike Williams: I'm not going to fight you on it because when I went through high school, ⁓ that's how I passed my final exams is I rewrote my notes. It was the only way I was remembering things. I understand that. I guess my comment was more towards, you know, if, if, if.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Mike Williams: If we're going to argue against testing culture, which all of us do, right? Then then the real purpose of school is to prepare the kids for the world that they're about to enter. But we don't, we're not fortune tellers. I mean, if you're an 11th and 12th grade teacher, you may have an easier job of this than you and I do. Kelly, cause we're fifth and sixth grade teachers. Right? So, so anyway, I, I, I just, I think it's a really good conversation. And I, and I think to the. you know the nine people that listen to this, ⁓ you know, I think that...
Kaley Clavell: Margaret, don't worry. think we're up to like maybe 12 and then we can hear if whoever's home with you. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Yeah, yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. This is a new venture. ⁓ you know, like I would just say that I think a careful balance is okay. And Margaret, you said something that really set my radar up, which is this, like this alternate way of assessing students. And if you're going to ask students to write a short response, then I don't really see the reason why. If you're going to give three short responses, two can be written and one can be, Hey, create a tick tock video with your friend explaining the answer. Right. I think that those things, I think that's the way I would like to embrace this stuff. Because I think when we go after what the kids really like, we're showing an interest in what they like. I mean, you know, I tell the kids all the time, I have a tick tock account and then I make up some wild name and tell them that I have nine followers and 26 likes and they all laugh at me and and it's probably true but the point is is that I've put myself in their world you know and and like I wish these kids put as much effort into other things as they do searching for me on tik-tok on account that I don't even know the name for but But I guess the point is, know, embracing the things that they like to bring what they actually know out, right? And that to me is important because, Kaley, you you you said about that AI example, it's the same thing I do. When a kid comes up to me and says, this is my answer, I say, great, what's this word mean? They're like, what word? I'm like, this word. I don't know, where did you find that? I said, I found it in your answer. Like, so let's talk about it, right? Let's move here.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. Perfect.
Mike Williams: to something because I think it's going to tie into what we're talking about now. And I really liked this. So Margaret, I'm going to ask you to unpack something for me, right? When you and I talked, right? Prior to this, you were talking a lot about, you know, soft skills and framing them as essential life skills. So I'm wondering if you could unpack that for
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Mike Williams: for the masses of people.
Margaret Boersma: Sure, and it picks up on what you were saying about teaching your students to be ready for life after school. Like actually they need to be ready for life today, not only after school. So I'll just say that. But ⁓ I think what we need to focus on is those soft skills because those are essential skills. You know, when children get out into the workplace, they don't lose their jobs because they don't have the tech skills or the knowledge of the industry. They lose it because they can't get along with their peers.
Kaley Clavell: Now, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: So those are soft skills and we have to train them right from kindergarten and before. Like it's so important. Children need to know how to self-regulate. A lot of children can't do that anymore. They let off big emotions, they throw dusts around, they're violent in schools. And teachers are leaving in droves as a result. It's really sad and appalling what's happening and it's not the children's fault and it's not the teacher's fault and it's not the leader's fault because we weren't equipped to teach what's happening right now because of the conditions in the world. And when I say that, mean, you know, we're not aware of what... ⁓ these devices that the kids are addicted to and the adult role models are addicted to, what is happening? This is the very first generation or two in the history of mankind where we've had this technology that's so pervasive, this thing that's so pervasive without having tested it and we're seeing the results. And so I think what we need to teach at the youngest ages are those soft skills. So those would include skills like cooperating, not just the attention span and the impulse control and the regulation, but really get into communication skills. How do you really listen to someone and make it clear to them that you heard them? You have to paraphrase and empathize, or summarize and empathize. And how do you do that?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: You know, when you've got your own opinion in your own head and you feel like if you're doing that, you're agreeing with them, which is not the case at all. And this is the kind of things that we need to teach when everyone is calm. This is proactive teaching of essential skills. And once people feel like you heard them, there's a space that's created where they can hear what you have to say.
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: But until that happens, they're just listening with, am I going to say next? And then I'll jump down their throat. And it's not good communication, and it does not work.
Kaley Clavell: Margaret, can you give any teachers who are listening ⁓ just ⁓ a quick lesson idea on how to model that type of communication?
Margaret Boersma: Okay, so here's an example. This is a very typical example. You're on recess duty and there's kids playing on the soccer field and one kid doesn't get invited in. In fact, every day at recess this 10-year-old asks, can I play soccer with you? No. And so they come to the teacher. What do they want from the teacher? They want the teacher to resolve the conflict. What do we normally teach our children who do that? We teach them to rely on adults to solve their emotional and social problems. Instead, we can recreate what they're saying so paraphrase and empathize so it sounds like you'd really like to play and they're saying no and that makes you feel horrible or just say that sucks whatever language the kid understands right and say it in a very empathetic way and it might set them into tears and that's okay come and walk with me for a bit and then when they're really reasonably calm and you might have to do it more than once but it's always the same response. Yes and then I've been there every day this week and they still say no. ⁓ my goodness you've been trying every day this week. That is so hard to take. It feels like rejection and you say this to the kid and you watch his emotional temperature come down. So only when it's down can you do the next step and that is what would you like to do about it?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Right.
Margaret Boersma: So you're leaving the...
Mike Williams: This is this sounds like a place where ⁓ we're modeling could also be a thing too, you know, ⁓ So so I know that we don't want to give kids the resolution but I also know that there are kids out there who Come from places where things are not often Shown
Margaret Boersma: No.
Mike Williams: This way right so i'm thinking of the example you gave and let's say there's nine kids Right, and it ends up being four on four as well. What do do with the extra kid? ⁓ you can't play your extra right then it's like all right as As an adult i'm dealing with younger kids Maybe i'll say you know what i'm gonna play now Right? So now we have what? We have five on five, right? So how can we solve this problem going forward? Right? You put yourself into the situation, you let the kids kind of work it out, you know, mentally. But I see what you're saying and I really like it. It makes me think about something that I read about ⁓ for younger students and the importance of play. Right? Like, cause play is something that teaches kids these different things. I am the father of twins. Right? So my kids went to school already a leg up on cooperation and collaboration. But when you have a kid who's a kindergartner on his first day of school, who never went to a daycare, never went to this and that, you're, you're going to see this child have a hard time. Right?
Margaret Boersma: The difference, yeah. Do want me to continue with my example?
Mike Williams: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: No, I'm hearing what you're saying, Mike, and that is one possibility, right? Like you're saying, you know, you could insert yourself into the game and then they'd have equal teams, but it wouldn't be equal because now it's like two people. ⁓ But I hear what you're saying, but I want to leave the ball in their court. So rather than me as a teacher saying, well, we could try this, I could come and play, leave the ball in the kids court and say, what would you like to do about it? And it's amazing when they're in a state of calm, how creative they can be. Well, The first thing they probably say is, could come and tell them that they have to let me play, because we still don't know the reason why they're not there. And that doesn't matter. The reason doesn't matter. What would you like to do about it? And so have them come up with two or three good suggestions and then ask them, which one would you like to try first? And then say, how would you like me to support you? You're not doing it for them.
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: Well, maybe you could come with me when I ask them again to play. Yeah, I could do that. So then you just stand there and you ask again. And you know, in the end, it could be that the kid wasn't a good enough player, that the kid needs to have a one-on-one with the person who keeps saying no, because they're likely the alpha in the group.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And so maybe outside of that situation, those two kids have a conversation and it's discovered that one can't play up to the caliber and the other one is losing face if they say, you can play. And then they have to problem solve that. So what are they going to do? Well, it could be that the one who's having a one-on-one and keep saying no says, I'll help you every day at lunchtime or after school for 15 minutes to get your skills up. It's amazing what happens. It's amazing.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: But you have to leave it in their court, otherwise they keep, they learn, kids are learning no matter what we intend for them to learn. And we are always teaching them that they need an adult to solve these problems and they don't.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, what I'm hearing is promoting advocacy within children from a young age and also waiting until we're not, it's not the heat of the moment to have those solving conversations. ⁓ I think that is where personally I used to go wrong as a...
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Kaley Clavell: first year teacher, second year teacher learning, right? it sometimes it's still, you mentioned before that a student's ⁓ answer was the reason why they're not able to do X, Y, and Z is because of time. And I think adults struggle with that too, because we have an agenda and we have a million students. And sometimes it just takes a second to sit back and listen to a student. And if you can't,
Margaret Boersma: May 2.
Kaley Clavell: in that moment and you can't give it that time, by you reacting is going to spark another reaction when they're in that red zone and that heat of the moment, right? So what are some strategies or skills you would say to a teacher of like, I'm constantly listening to problems and after recess, I'm getting bombarded with all of these problems. What can you say to a student that you
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Kaley Clavell: actually do not have time to solve that problem right away. What's some language that we could give teachers of, care about what you're saying, I can't handle that right now. Like what is it? Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well just that message, just say it with warmth. You know, I know that you need to talk to me right now and I have to get the class to work. Can you wait a few minutes? Like just have warmth in your voice when you acknowledge their presence and you realize, you tell them I know you want to talk to me right now and I'll get back to you.
Mike Williams: That goes such a long way. mean, just that, just that, because I think that brings your, your demeanor to I'm talking to you with respect. And I, and I always tell people, say, especially when I, when I teach the university students, I tell them, you know, just cause you're standing up in front of a classroom doesn't earn you respect.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: You know, and especially when you get to the kids that like, you know, Kaylee and I teach in the fifth and the sixth grade, they're starting to learn which teachers respect them and which don't. And that message goes a really long way. That tone that, yes, I'd love to help you, but now might not be the best time. You know, talking to kids about... ⁓ I don't know what you call it. Where we came up, we call it like take a break, know, like separate yourself from the situation. Even coaching kids at that point that, why, what did I do? That's not the right time. You know, I'd be happy to talk to you about this, but we'll talk about it later. Right? And I just keep thinking about what you said before ⁓ in the last section. along the lines of, of, of responding, right? Instead of being that reactive, right? It's about being thoughtful. It's all right. Let me think before I say, what did I do? Right? And how do I, how do I do that? So these skills, I, I, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. It only takes five seconds, sometimes just three. If you train your children to just pause. Mel Robbins wrote the five second rule. It's around this whole concept. Just if they could wait five seconds, they'll come out with a response rather than a reaction. And it will make all the difference to what happens. What? I know, I know. I know, I know. I work with them too. Yes, of course.
Kaley Clavell: Gosh, I don't need this to adults need this to Margaret. Right.
Mike Williams: That's a good lesson for people. That's a good lesson for teachers too. mean, even younger teachers is, know what? Before you want to respond, wait that five seconds. mean, look, I Kelly say something like, I make these mistakes as a new teacher, as a second year. I'm sitting here going, I make these mistakes as an 11 year veteran. You know, it...
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah, still, totally.
Margaret Boersma: You know, I'll give you an example. A friend of mine taught special ed, high school special ed, and he taught his kids, who were very reactive, right, to do this. Put their hand up and look away if they needed a moment. And so these kids in his class knew that. So one day, one of the kids was running down the hall because the announcements were on and another teacher stopped him and say, Hey, Michael, stop it. Stop running. And he went like this to the teacher, took a breath and the teacher knew that sign, even though she wasn't taught. Right. And then he responded rather than reacted. And it saved him from going to the principal's office.
Kaley Clavell: Thank God. Yeah. Right, right, And I'm glad.
Margaret Boersma: I think we should all teach our kids that.
Mike Williams: And ⁓ that's the importance of communication to all the teachers out there. Communicate your signals before somebody thinks otherwise.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think I'm glad you brought up, special education, just because I'm in a position now where I am teaching, we have a luxury in our school to have a program called the nest program, which is, ⁓ designed for students with autism. And what I've been learning is, you know, different ways to.
Margaret Boersma: Proactive teaching.
Kaley Clavell: ensure that my thoughts and my ideas are cared for and that although I cannot get to them immediately, something that we use as a tool is a parking lot, a physical parking lot for I'm parking my question here and when my teacher has a minute, that question will be removed from my parking lot, right? I'm parking my thought here and that visual of like, wrote down what I had to say or My ideas in my head and my car is parked here and my teacher knows that I have something to say right now that's very urgent to me. Those types of ⁓ that type of nonverbal communication is really essential. And even if you know had a student at the beginning of year that would immediately say like I'm not done. I'm not done like immediately when a timer went off or anything like that. So I you have to recognize those types of trigger points as a as a teacher and What worked for him was just this signal right here, just putting up a number one of, need another minute. So his hand goes up, I give him one of these and that's it, right? Like no problem, not even thinking about it. And so I said, sometimes I won't even do this, but you doing this tells me everything I need to know. And let's just keep moving on. So ⁓ I think Mike, what we talked about in the last episode was a lot ⁓ to do with relationships.
Margaret Boersma: Nice. Yeah. Beautiful.
Kaley Clavell: And I think that this also ties into this conversation of like understanding the needs within your classroom and also understanding that needs are ever changing. And I think maybe we can get into that type of conversation of like behaviors and what they tell us and what we can do as teachers. don't know if that's not a question, but Mike, I don't know if you had a question for that, but I think that's a, that kind of relates to what we're saying right now of like. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Kaley Clavell: what can we do as teachers ⁓ to understand changes in behaviors and what should our moves look like based on the changes of behaviors.
Margaret Boersma: So what can we do to understand behaviors and then change them?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. What can we do to under- yeah, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Okay. Behaviors is the...
Kaley Clavell: Or what is the story that behaviors tell us? Maybe that's kind of what I...
Margaret Boersma: Behaviors talk about unmet needs. Behaviors are communication and a chance for us as teachers to get information. This kid is throwing stuff around the room. What is that telling me? That their alarm system is going off. And then dig deeper. Why is their alarm system going off? What's happening in the classroom?
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: that maybe they're overly sensitive to the environment. Maybe, and that includes the walls and all the bright colored anchor charts and it's all like noise to them. It's nothing calming. And we live in a world right now where things are alarming. And if they're exposed to the news, that's alarming. And there's so many alarms going off. And so even for kids who are not over sensitive,
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, Great.
Margaret Boersma: they also need a place that calm. Routines are calming. When we say, surprise, we're doing this now, that's alarming. So it really is, especially to the sensitive kids, right? So calm walls, calm decor, calm demeanor, follow routines and understand that behavior is just communication.
Kaley Clavell: That's true.
Margaret Boersma: and a chance to get information. That's all it is. Children do not have the language and the verbiage and to be able to express themselves in moods. And so when we complain that our children have inappropriate behavior, stop inappropriate. Okay, their alarm system is going off. They're having a temper tantrum. That's information. It's an impulse. It's nothing they can do anything about because they haven't been taught to respond, to take that chill moment, to even recognize what their inner voices are telling them. You know, all have, here's a really good book. ⁓ A kindergarten teacher just wrote, I'm helping her develop curriculum for it. It's called Harmony Hair and Her Three Voices. It's a book about self-talk. And in that book, this little rabbit realizes she has three voices, and we all do. The victim, the villain, and the hero. The villain says, I can't do this. It's just way too much. I'm so overwhelmed. I'll never get this. The villain's It's not my fault, it's your fault or it's the government's fault. I mean, we all have this. So I'm thinking adults too, right? It's always someone else's fault and it's an aggressive kind of behavior that we have. other one, the is inward, the villain is outward, the victim is passive, the villain is aggressive. But then we all have a hero voice. What does the hero voice do? The hero voice is calm and confident.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: the hero voice can tap in on its inner wisdom. How do we do that? And how can we teach that proactively? And that my work that I did with grade three to fives in December and the same unit only at the grade seven level in January, I developed a ⁓ unit, cross-curricular unit for those ages on that book. Even though the grade sevens, I never read it to them.
Kaley Clavell: Wow.
Margaret Boersma: because it looks like a kindergarten book, but adults resonate with it big time. And so I think we need to teach which voice is coming out. And if we really want our hero voice, we need to be able to respond and not react. It's all tied together.
Kaley Clavell: So true. I love that.
Mike Williams: You said something interesting to me. ⁓ First off, I'm glad you said that thing about unmet needs. I think that one of those unmet needs, and I just want to reiterate this because you said it a couple of times, one of those unmet needs, Might be that they don't know how to handle what you're asking them and they're just default is to Do what they do when they're not getting their way Anywhere else right and I think that that's really important for people to understand I think all too often and I'll speak for myself here. I think we take We take behaviors personally
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: as teachers and I think that separating yourself from the child's actions is important. The kid is probably not doing it to aggravate you. The kid is probably not doing it. I mean, look, are there kids who are capable of it? Sure. But it's unlikely, right? And then the second thing you said, and this is more of like a, know, teaching grade five,
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: this concept of reading children's books to older kids, find they love it. I mean...
Margaret Boersma: They often do. I just didn't do it because of who they were.
Mike Williams: No, no, no, I just completely understand. I mean, as far as a method goes for really any kids, they don't hate being read to, you know?
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ yeah.
Kaley Clavell: No, read alouds, talk about calming. Read alouds are like everything. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Right. Yeah. And it's pretty cool too, because it's like, know, even... I don't want to say this the wrong way, but even like even when you read a kindergarten book with seventh graders like you might be reading it in like a different tone and it's like okay come on students let's everybody go to the rug right like but but the kids they still enjoy it and you can still get a lot out of that and and yeah I I I wrote down the name of that book and I'm gonna probably ask you you know you said it's still being developed or it's done yeah so i'm gonna ask i'm gonna make sure i got the right one because i think that that's pretty cool ⁓ just developing this this this this this voice for kids because you know
Margaret Boersma: No, it's done. You can get it on Amazon. Yeah. Notice Your Self-Talk is what I called the units that I developed.
Mike Williams: Yes, yeah, I think it's great. All right, so let's just do a couple more things. I am very sure we're close to an hour at this point. have no idea. wow, look at that. I want to go back to one thing about your soft skills, right?
Kaley Clavell: 52 minutes.
Mike Williams: The soft skills the the the the life skills because I happen to agree with you a lot on that I I love teaching those I think they're more important For some students we could talk day and night about differentiation, but I think differentiation Doesn't necessarily mean I'm teaching The same lesson to students different as I'm giving what this kid needs right and this kid needs soft skills and this child needs something totally different so anyway I'm thinking about just kind of maybe giving teachers some ideas of what practical ways we can build these skills inside of classrooms every day. Do you have any favorites?
Margaret Boersma: Yep. I put a whole ⁓ ebook together of games ⁓ that are interactive games, not board games, not computer games, but games that really apply these soft skills and then debrief. And the learning is in the debrief. How did you feel when someone didn't go along with your idea in your group? And what did you do? and you know what would you do another time differently that might bring a different result those are really key questions in a debrief of these games but the games are free and people can just write me and I'll send it to them yeah right
Mike Williams: I'll make sure to include that because I want that. That's important. and it's another thing that keeps coming to my mind is this notion of this almost sounds in a way like teaching social studies, right? Cause we, we, we, That was the reason I was hired at the university was to teach a course on social studies. It's what I like to do. It's what I really enjoy. And one of the biggest aha moments for the students at the university was that social studies is not history. It's not. Part of it's history, right? But part of it's also creating citizens, creating good citizens. And...
Margaret Boersma: Yes, I love using social studies themes for my ⁓ educational drama projects.
Mike Williams: And yeah, so like I think about the the
Kaley Clavell: ⁓
Mike Williams: So if a teacher looks and says, these guys are talking about all this, this, this stuff and where do we find the time? I would argue the times built into your schedule already. You know, you talk about social studies in a way that this is a place where we can insert these different lessons, these different. Cooperative learning things these different things because because at the end of the day What is a good citizen? It's a good citizen is somebody who works well with others who who listens who respects and and that starts day one of kindergarten, know, and and it ends Never it really just never ends so I love that. I I love the I I would love to, could I ask you just to talk real quickly about these educational dramas?
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Sure. Another word for it is process drama. So I have a specialist in that and it's not very well known in the US, but I have done a number of workshops with the American Alliance for Theatre Educators in different parts of the US on process drama. And basically I take a story, often a story book, but it could be a story that the kids make up from scratch, and we do it as a collective. rather than talking about a in third person, there it's in first person so they become a character in the story. So for example like you guys are a grade five so I'm just thinking of an example of something I might have done with grade five. Let's just say here's a grade two example because it comes to mind really fast. There's a book called The King's Fountain and the King
Mike Williams: Yeah, no, that's fine. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: loves to build a great big fountain on the top of his mountain and doesn't realize that all the money and resources take away from the water supply of the villagers down below. And so in grade two, it's a cross-curricular unit. We build it, we make a great big map on a piece of mural paper. What does it look like and what are we going to do about this? So there's a problem in the story. They're the villagers ⁓ and so they take on their own role and they improvise it and we bring it to life so that they really own it. And we have different tools that we use in the drama to do that. It's not theater. Just don't confuse it. But it's first-person literature, really. First-person story building. then they decide, inevitably, and it's student voice here all the time, because as an artist, I take what they say and move it in the direction that they go in and let them experience the consequences. So mostly in that story,
Kaley Clavell: Mm.
Margaret Boersma: The grade twos would say, I think we need to talk to the king because it's just not fair. And they're very livid about it too. So we can talk about emotions in that and learn from that. And I say, okay, so let's get together in partners, because you want small groups at that age, and make a plan. What are you going to say to the king? Write it down. And draw a picture, whatever you want. So they practice, and then we talk about... You can't talk to the king the way you talk to your dog. so this is built in, right? Like a lot of kids don't realize that when they're talking to the principal, it's not talking to an equal, you know, and how do you make that distinction? And so ⁓ there was guards there and I was, I think I was one of the guards. never the person in control. I mean, I'm in control of class. Like when we have a group, a town hall meeting or something, I'll be the chairperson, but someone else is the leader. and the rest of the class is all part of it. So they're always in role and I bring in different problems in the role, but in that particular example, at one point I had a student teacher who came in part way through the unit and so when we got to the point of, ⁓ you know, their presentations were passable for the guards and they were really good and everyone sitting in a row like this and listening to everyone else get, nope, go back, do it again, this isn't good enough, this isn't good enough and so So they learn, but in a fun way, right? It's not like your essay sucks, do it again. It's like, fix this! And so, and they have a motivation to do it because they want to get across to the king. So my student teacher put a chair on top of a table one day and sat there like the king and put a crown on and they were like, whoa, there's a king!
Kaley Clavell: Right. That's great.
Margaret Boersma: And so it was precious. And so then we have an ending for it and we wrap it all up and they include writing, often writing in roll. Because once they experience something, writing in roll is, the writing is so much richer because they've experienced it. So, you know, write a letter to the king. ⁓ you know what do you want to say to them and then from there they take the essence of what they actually say anyways all that to say it's it's amazing I teach five half days in one classroom at a time and I do it through demonstration lessons so when other teachers come in they watch this and they're like blown away can't wait to do it in their class and so I've developed a lot of these units myself but it's all social emotional learning in the end it's the foundation skills of being able to live in society. And that's what we need to teach.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, absolutely.
Mike Williams: I do have to disclaim that CollabEd cannot be responsible for anybody who puts a chair on top of a desk and falls. So just throwing that out there. Anyway. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: I love that idea though. I'm so performative in teaching and I love that. I have a, my old co-teacher, Ms. Clark, we used to do something called ⁓ the Clark Hell Theater and we would always do stuff like that and dress up. so I'm fully all for it. I will be sitting on a table as a ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Ha ha ha! Cool.
Kaley Clavell: as a king coming soon, Margaret, I'll send you a picture.
Margaret Boersma: Hahaha! ⁓
Mike Williams: not holding CollabEd responsible for it in any way, shape or form.
Margaret Boersma: But someone else has to be the king anyways. You want the kids to be in the power role and you are in the moderator role always. But you can get a kid to figure out how they're going to be in a safe position, a little elevated from the rest. Like one way to do it is to get them in a chair and everyone else sitting down on the floor. Mike's feeling better.
Kaley Clavell: Alright, fine, I'll give it up. I'll give it a s- I'll give you a s- All right.
Mike Williams: That's better. All right. We're good. Collab at indoors is that it? Kayla be sitting on the roof of her building. ⁓ Anyway ⁓ So so yeah, I mean look we could we could talk for hours clearly ⁓ and this is Been very informative, but I do want to respect people's time. So I'm looking at the last two things that we had down here that I kind of wanted to chat about and ironically they both
Kaley Clavell: I'm with the latter still. We'll figure it out. Yep. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Mike Williams: cover similar, similar type tasks, right? And so I guess I wanted to, to, to explore this question as kind of our last thing. How can teachers integrate creativity and choice without lowering standards? So you made mention before of universal design for learning, right? And then, and then that question, I looked at another question and it kind of said the same thing to me, which was how do we protect creativity and real world skill development inside the systems that prioritize scores? So when we put those two questions together, like, I mean, I know for me, and I'll, and I'll start by, by just putting a story out there, you know, New York state here in, in, the U S has put out a new science testing curriculum and the old science test used to be which of these is a living, breathing thing. The new science test is read this entire passage, analyze all these pieces of data and evidence and answer these questions. So we're talking about two totally different things, right? And I was initially very worried about how the kids would perform on it until I realized that... A lot of what we do pushes critical thinking skills, right? A lot of what we do pushes analysis. A lot of what we do just inherently, at least in where I am at, pushes these skills. So while I was worried about the new format, the kids actually did okay on it. I'm not going to say they did great, you know, because I don't think anybody did great, but I know that we were okay. ⁓ And so it tells me that there's a way to keep creativity and real world skill development even inside the reality that we all live in. And we all know that that reality is these scores and this. So I'd love to kind of just wrap up talking about what comes to mind when I, when I throw that out there.
Margaret Boersma: So I think you're asking like when we.
Mike Williams: Yeah, I'm not really good at asking questions. I'll get better at this, promise. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Well, I just wanted to make sure I hit it, hit the nail on the head. When it's a test culture, how do you keep creativity in there? Is that what you're asking?
Mike Williams: How do we keep the kids interested in test culture? I guess that's my overarching question.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Yeah, I would say, ⁓ first here's what I need to tell you. Here in Canada, we do not have the same test culture as you do in America. We have tests that are provincial tests and in grade three, six, nine and ten. and the rest of the time we don't have provincial tests. So the emphasis on testing is way higher in the U.S. So I want to address your question. I'll just say that here we look at a triangle for assessment. We look at observation. We look at final product and we look at conversation. When we have a conversation with the students we gain understanding of what they know and don't know. When we observe what they're doing in groups and outside of groups and with their time and that's another way of assessing and the final product. So the emphasis is not on the test or the final product. The emphasis is equally amongst those three in that triangle. When it comes to creativity, I'm wondering if, I don't even know if teachers know the test in advance. But if you know what kind of question it is, and you can extrapolate what it is they need to know and find a creative way to teach that, they're going to know it inside out and backwards. And just because they see it in another format on the test, they'll know it. If it's not engaging when they learn it, they won't remember it for the test.
Mike Williams: and I think this speaks to what we talked about earlier right ⁓ a kid if a kid knows what a main idea is then speaking it or writing it shouldn't make a difference right so like this is where I would I would throw out this this conversation and this this this advice to teachers is that
Margaret Boersma: Right.
Mike Williams: part of the hardest thing we do is trying to engage our students. And I think that the engagement really is just about finding different ways to let them do things. It's just about finding creative ways to let them do things. And we happen to be in a conversation with one of the people who I've never seen anybody be able to do this like.
Kaley Clavell: you
Mike Williams: Kaylee does, right? And it's the reason that she's so successful as a teacher is because she finds these ways to relate to the kids and to get them to bring out their best. I would just say that this is so important.
Kaley Clavell: Thanks Mike, that was the nicest thing you've said to me on this podcast. I appreciate you.
Mike Williams: You know, not for nothing, but I thought that that introduction was pretty nice too, all right? Like that was, I worked hard on that. I worked hard on that one, all right? Anyway, no, but I really, and I think it's important. And I think that the more you can do for the kids to help them understand these things.
Kaley Clavell: the tapping of your salad. Thank you.
Mike Williams: I I sat across from a classroom the other day. We're in a very unique building where ⁓ there's three different schools in our building. And so some of the rooms are shared. And this was a room for another school and they were doing test prep. it was test prep. was questioned. was test prep. was questioned. was test prep. was questioned. And we've all been there. We've all done it. We're all guilty. And my brain has just gone to the point where it's like, what are we doing?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, but if you do those things, Mike, I'm sorry I have to cut you off. if you do those things, there's ways to make it interesting. We used to play slash the trash kit ball, where if you have to learn this skill, this silly skill, and you can find a way to make it cool by like slashing the trash, crumbling up the trash answers, throwing them in the garbage, making, you know, there are some things that I feel like we're not going to change, unfortunately, right now. and that's standardized testing where we live. How can, I think it's really just the conversation of like, we gotta figure out the brains behind what are the skills really that these kids need to know? How do we build on that? Because like you said, like there are people that are gonna remain in the boring rote. Question, question, question, question. But. Does the data really support that those kids are improving in any way? Probably not.
Mike Williams: But it's kind of funny you said that because that that's kind of where I was going with this whole thing was that I think the challenge for us and the challenge coming off of this podcast becomes what am I as a teacher doing to engage those students? And, I think that the answer needs to be whatever interests them. Let's, let's, let's get there. Let's get there. Let's figure it out. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yep.
Mike Williams: And so that's really what I came off of here today. Kind of in this conversation with you guys, I think we talked about a lot of great stuff about behavior. ⁓ I, I really, really don't know of any better way to say it than you said it, Margaret about. you know, unmet needs. think that your points on these essential life skills are just so, it's so important to be able to, it's almost like the why behind what we do, right? Why do kids have to know what the main idea is? I could argue that it's an analysis thing. Right? You're analyzing, you're learning how to analyze and you're to analyze for the rest of your life. You're going to analyze decisions. Right? So I, I, I really am just blown away by this last hour plus at this point. Um, and I really, I don't know how many different ways I can say thank you for being here. Um, I, I know you mentioned that ebook, um,
Margaret Boersma: The Thriving Teacher Guide. It's called The Thriving Teacher Guide.
Mike Williams: what I will do. What is it? and that could be found where?
Margaret Boersma: They have to email me, mb at margaretborisma.com. That's B-O-E-R-S-M-A.
Mike Williams: Okay. Alright, so I'm going to put that on our platform. ⁓ You know what else I'm going to do is I'm also going to put a. ⁓ We're going to be rolling out a new section of this thing where we have ⁓ a resource sharing type thing and then what I'll do is I'll also include this in our research sharing saying hey, this is what it is. If you'd like a copy email. Margaret and I'll put your information in there because.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: That's really cool stuff. And I just want to say thank you. I don't know if you have anything you want to add before you go, or if you just want to go to bed. It's up to you. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ no, I've really enjoyed this conversation too. So thank you so much, Mike and Kaylee. It's just been such a pleasure. I'm happy to come back if you would want me to come back and talk.
Mike Williams: Well good, we're doing episode three tomorrow, so if you, you know.
Margaret Boersma: I could talk a little bit more about the novelty. Our brains love novel and novelty. And so that's how you make lessons engaging if you know it's novel to the kids. And I have so many ways that I do that. And because I'm a teaching artist, but also because... We have a specialty here. have ⁓ extra active courses that you can take after you become a teacher. You probably have that too. But we have part one, two and three of what's called a drama specialist and I have part three. So the specialist part of it and I have put it into practice for years and years already. And that's how I got on the roster as a teaching artist. And it's beautiful because we have five half days with one class in one school and five half days with another class in that school. really get to know the kids, you get to know their needs, and it keeps me grounded while I work with whole schools. I partner with schools because I really think that the leaders in the school also don't know what to do. And I would love to, if anybody's on this podcast hears me, just reach out and we'll have an initial conversation and see if it's something I can support you with.
Mike Williams: Great. Well, thank you. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: Thank you, Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: You're welcome.
Mike Williams: It's always a pleasure Margaret. Thank you and I yeah, we'll we'll we can set up a We'll call it like a reboot, you know and get back and continue this conversation because I think it would be worth it
Kaley Clavell: And I also think that what you have, just the tips that you've given have been really helpful. So maybe we can just do like some short little clips that people can click on and collab at. And if you like that idea and you're listening, comment below if you want to get some clips and tips from Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ Thank you. Happy to help. Perfect.
Mike Williams: That's on the horizon. We're working on that. ⁓ That's about it. That's all I can say. Guys, thank you. Appreciate you. Have a great night. until next time, folks, we'll see you then. All right, bye. Thanks.
Kaley Clavell: Cool. Until next time, see ya.
Margaret Boersma: Okay, bye bye.
Kaley Clavell: Hello, good evening.
Margaret Boersma: Hello.
Mike Williams: Good evening. So, ⁓ this time we have a podcast name and so we're going to call this built by educators. So I want to say welcome to the second slash first episode of built by educators, a collab ed production. My name is Mike. I am a fifth grade teacher and the founder of collab ed. I'd like to do some introductions. So first, as I always do, I have to introduce the star of this salad. am genuinely green with envy every time she joins me on the mic. You're all lucky she continues to serve up bite-sized brilliance for us to chew on. She keeps this show crisp, keeps me from overdressing the conversation, and makes sure we don't wilt under the weight of big educational ideas. May introduce my good friend and co-host, Kaylee Clivell. Kaylee, welcome back.
Kaley Clavell: The kale salad. I'm happy to be here.
Mike Williams: And today, we're excited to welcome Margaret Boersma. Margaret has spent over three decades in education and now works globally through creative education in action, helping schools rethink creativity curriculum and the real life skills students need to thrive. In this episode, we're digging into technology, attention spans, testing cultures, essential life skills, and whether our classrooms reflect the world our students are actually living in. This conversation is rich. It's layered. It's going to challenge you. You might even say it's full of nutrients. Yes, that was intentional. Right, Kel? ⁓ We promise this will be a good episode for you, even if it takes a little chewing. Let's get into it. Margaret, welcome.
Margaret Boersma: Thank you.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, it is.
Mike Williams: Before we get started on the itinerary that we probably won't finish, could you tell us a little bit about your work and creative education in action?
Margaret Boersma: Okay, so thank you for having me first of all. This is very exciting. ⁓ My work. My work has evolved over the decades. I was ⁓ a teacher for many, many years from kindergarten to grade eight or eighth grade as you say. I'm Canadian. But I'm also Dutch-Canadian, so I also like to work internationally. I support leaders, entire schools, so that there's more capacity. So leadership capacity. And I'm just creating a roadmap for that, the leadership capacity roadmap. And it really deals with the real things that are going on in school. Very practical.
Kaley Clavell: it.
Margaret Boersma: I find that kids haven't really changed. It's the circumstances and the conditions that have changed. And we as educators and leaders in schools do not know how to handle that because, and it's not our fault, it's because we weren't equipped to deal with what the conditions are now. And they have, they're systemic, they're not one classroom oriented, and they are ⁓ They're also in our world. And so there's lots of alarms going off, not only in children who are, quote, misbehaving. There's a whole lot behind that we could unpack, but also in adults in the schools. And how do we deal with dysregulation? How do we deal with that lack of instructional time that happens because there's big emotions going off everywhere? And how do leaders... ⁓
Mike Williams: you
Kaley Clavell: you
Margaret Boersma: allow time to build the foundational skills so that students and adults can regulate and so that the academics are learned much faster. That's what I deal with and that's how I support schools.
Mike Williams: So that's really a great place to kind of, I think, start this conversation. ⁓ So for today's theme, I kind of put down, know, are we preparing students for the world they actually live in? And this conversation can go a couple of different ways. I think where I want to start is this. ⁓ I think that students... fundamentally haven't changed, if I heard you say that correctly, like, okay, but I do think that that something about the students has changed, right? And I think that a large play in that is this notion of social media and is this notion of really kind of attention span. So I think...
Margaret Boersma: Exactly.
Mike Williams: Yeah. I think the first question that I want to go after tonight, the first thing I'd like to talk about is how, or what are some of the things that we can do to modernize instruction without sacrificing depth and intellectual rigor? And listen, this was an easier first question than I asked last time. The first question I asked in the last podcast was how do we fix education? So I think, you know, you got off pretty easy here. So, so, I mean, you know, what, what do you think about, about that?
Margaret Boersma: Mmm.
Kaley Clavell: the
Margaret Boersma: You Can you just ask it one more time? Yes.
Mike Williams: Yeah, so like, I mean, what do we do in order to get the kids who are hardwired for 30 % or 30 second, 30 second videos, minute videos? How do we, what are some of the things we can do to get them educated and without sacrificing the depth or the rigor of what we do?
Margaret Boersma: Got it. Yeah, so what can we do about it when we have kids who seem to be the ones that have changed, when really it was the conditions that have changed the kids. So I'll unpack that a little bit and then get into the practical side of what can we do now, now that we have this, okay? So yes, you're right, the social media, ⁓ especially for slightly older children who have their own cell phones and their own devices, but babies have devices too, like parents give babies devices too. And so what ends up happening
Mike Williams: Guilty.
Margaret Boersma: So what ends up happening is the children are entertained a lot. They get addicted to the devices just like all their adult role models are, if I might be so blunt. And it's true, right? yeah, and so what ends up happening is they're used to instant gratification. They're used to quick snappy things and anything that requires deeper thought is they don't have the patience for it.
Kaley Clavell: It's true. Absolutely.
Margaret Boersma: Because it restructures their brain in some ways because teenagers have done research on this. ⁓ They can't read a book for an hour and a half, two hours at a time because it requires too much sustained concentration. ⁓ I think those are conditions and our children are reacting to the conditions. And so one thing that Hannah Beach and Tamara Stryjak say in their book, Reclaiming Our Students, which is an excellent book for dealing with all this stuff, is we have to make sure that our students are able to exhale. Because what happens when they get these devices is they're entertained. But it is not a way for children to work through their day and their emotions. and their relationships. That happens through free play and you can see it when you see children play. But when children are being entertained they're breathing in and in and in and they never have a chance to exhale. And so what ends up happening is their alarm systems start going off. And so in their book they really talk about what do you do with the bossy child, what do you do with the resistant child, what do you what causes it and then what What do you do with it? So I'll give you a real life example to get into the practical side of your question. I like to do projects in schools so that I continuously, I'm in the classroom. And that's really helpful for helping schools and the leaders in the schools because a lot of them don't get a chance to spend any amount of time in the classroom. And if you're just walking by a classroom or you do a walk through, it's not the same thing as trying to teach these kids who have this sort of an attention span and how do you get the academics across. So I did that with grade 7s a couple of months ago in January and I ended up putting a draft of a whole package together of how do you do this and I tested it on them.
Kaley Clavell: True. Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And it was amazing how they turned around. So I'll give you one practical example. ⁓ Well, I'll do it through games too. But this one example, a lot of us do sustained silent reading in class, at least a couple of times a week, hopefully. And ⁓ I said to them, instead of thinking about it like some people are interrupting me all the time, I can't concentrate. How about, I called it the concentration competition, how about you get a book, it's going to last, you know, for at least 20 minutes, so if you need to read it three times, fine, you're not going to get up and get another book, and you're not going to allow yourself to be interrupted by anyone. If someone comes to the door, you keep your eyes on your book. You don't look up. If the teacher calls someone to their desk, you don't look up. If somebody drops a pencil, you don't look up. Don't allow yourself to get interrupted. And then I was policing it ⁓ in the beginning. And ⁓ I said, OK, we're going to beat our own score and we're working as a class. And so I start the timer and three seconds later, somebody interrupts and everybody's out of it again. And I said, Nope, that was three seconds. We have to beat three seconds. Well, we got up to eight minutes and 17 seconds of sustained silent reading. And this is a class that couldn't focus for 30 seconds on anything. So, and we did that twice, two days in a row at the beginning of my half day class.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: and they ate out of the palm of my hand after that. It was such a 180. So in that exercise I was training them. I was training their impulse control. I was training their length of focusing and attention and their regulation. Bringing their regulation system down. And the whole unit that I was doing was called Notice Yourself Talk and I created it with them. And yeah, and so it's a very strong unit now. But we talk to ourselves all the time and it's the voice that means the most to us. And to be honest, what parents and teachers say when children are young, that becomes their self-talk. So we have to be very careful what we say.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. And Margaret, I'm, I'm glad for, well, a couple of things. ⁓ the building of the stamina is something that needs to be taught into. And I think that is, ⁓ just a teacher tip for teachers now of like, yeah, you have to retrain our brain now to not get that immediate validation that, that you were talking about. ⁓ I'm glad you said grade seven because sometimes in conversations about, you know, building the stamina and talking about attention span, we're really focusing on elementary school. And I think, you know, I made the transition from third grade to sixth grade this year. And a lot of these things still apply, right? Like, and even so a little more in middle school. And we, we tend to be taught or maybe just make an assumption that you know, games and ⁓ all of this type of like play with our minds is something that we do only in elementary schools. So it's refreshing to hear that, these things are, should apply to middle school. And guess what? They apply to high school too. Like kids are kids and these, ⁓ I mean, adults like game play as well, you know? So, I mean, I do, I would rather. spend time there, I teach a writing class and I do a game called We Will Write, which is like, we're all looking at the screen and different prompts are coming up and we're finding out different ways that we can write in different ways and we type it really fast and then we read each other's. It's like so much more engaging than ⁓ just some of this rote instruction. So I think what you're talking about right now is just really important on like. And the question Mike was asking before of like modernizing instruction. I think that's a great tangible way to modernize instruction is teaching, is being intentional about building stamina in students. Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: I call it proactive learning. We can't only be reactive. And in most of our teacher training, we are taught to be reactive in
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: in that type of training. if a child does something, ⁓ in the moment teaching, you know, and it doesn't work because the amygdala is engaged and anybody who witnessed somebody with a 10 per tantrum, nobody can, it's like they're part of it. So we're in our amygdala in that survival part of our brain when really if we could teach these lessons when they're in a state of calm, then they can access the thinking part of their brain, which is the prefrontal frontal cortex and that's what they need. So we need to teach these lessons proactively.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Mike Williams: You know, I'm listening to the two of you talk and, I'm curious to know where you both land on this subject. it seems as though we're talking about technology being a threat to the way education is. And, and I'm wondering if, because I happen to be on team tech. All right. And I'm going to say this. You know, not in a, and I told you, we would talk about things that we, so, so I happen to be on team tech because I think that, you know, where, look, I mean, I don't know where we're headed. Like, I don't know where this world is headed, but if you told me that I could have a personal assistant, that was entirely on a computer 10 years ago, I might've laughed at you. Right now, it is single-handedly helped me build this not-for-profit, right? So I tend to embrace technology and I tend to use screens a lot in my classroom. ⁓ So I'm wondering, do we... Do we continue down that road or do we, a way, and this is my opinion, take a step back and start removing some of the tech? Because I hear people say to me, and this is the law, I don't even know if there's a question in here, I ⁓ hear people say to me, well, it's important that kids pick up a book and read it. I hear people say to me, you know, it's important that they physically hold a pen and write pencil and write yet. The evidence suggests that these skills are not because all of our testing is going digital. All of our, all of our writing is essentially turning into typing. Right? So I'm curious to know.
Kaley Clavell: Digital. Yeah. Yep.
Mike Williams: Like, where's the balance? Where are we here? Like, yeah, there was a question in there somewhere. And if somebody wants to find it, I'll put it in there. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: I can respond if you like. Yes. Yeah, okay. All right. So I think, you know, in the last 30 years or so, ⁓ we have put such an emphasis on ⁓ computer, use of computers, use it, and we haven't really known, let alone taught boundaries.
Kaley Clavell: Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: And I think there's so much to be said about what's how the world has evolved because of tack in the last 30 years. It's astounding and it's miraculous. So I'm not saying You know, it's not all or nothing. I think we have to be aware of how it's impacting our children because they go from tech at school to tech at home to I had those grade sevens fill out maybe, I don't know, 30 or 40 little in three different columns skills that they would like to learn in their lives. And I said, only check three or three to five. Don't check all the boxes. And so they all had something they really wanted to and And so I said at the bottom of the sheet, said, what's stopping you? For example, is it time? Is it money? Is it other something else? And 98 % of them said it was time. And yet they can find the time if they wouldn't be on screen for whatever the statistic is, five to six hours a day. So also in a school I was in in December, some grade eight teachers had just taught a simple cooking lesson in the staff room. And so it was lunchtime and they were reflecting on this lesson and they said, these grade eights could not do the pouring action from a measuring cup to a bowl.
Kaley Clavell: ⁓ my gosh.
Margaret Boersma: So I'm saying there are many skills that we need in our everyday lives that we're missing out on because these kids are on screen all the time and they're not developing life skills.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Right. Mike, Mike just, ⁓ posted a picture recently of his kids playing in the dirt rather than playing ⁓ on their iPads. So I'm happy to say that Mike's moving in the right direction, but right. Listen though, like, and I hear it's a real life frustration of, ⁓ the balance between.
Margaret Boersma: Perfect. Perfect. They'll pick up the tag, don't worry.
Mike Williams: They were on their iPads tonight. was nice.
Kaley Clavell: the way, and I heard Mike say this before, like, yeah, we're required to test on a computer. But as a teacher, my mind always goes back to what is the purpose of this? Is this assignment to prepare them for this exam, or is this assignment to prepare them for the world, or is this assignment, is this tool a computer? useful for what we are doing right now and that's kind of the purpose why I'm using it, right? Like I think it's it requires a depth of a teacher to understand like
Margaret Boersma: be discerning for the purpose.
Kaley Clavell: Right. Is this a tool or is this to make it a little bit easier on me or easier on them or maybe it's quicker or like, and also making sure that we're giving things on paper as well. We can't lose that. And I hear parents all the time and through conversations, parents are always saying like, you know, I teach a writing class. So they're like, you know, but do you care about handwriting? And, and, and I feel like that's a lost art right now. And I'm like, you're right. Like, So there has to be some type of a balance of like, my class is we're writing it on paper, that is your draft, we're teaching you how to draft on paper, then we're going online and typing our final draft. And then the opposite the next time, right? So like there are different skills, like you're saying Margaret of like, need to know how to hold a pencil in my hand and write on paper. I needed to know how to organize my writing on paper as well. But I also need to know,
Mike Williams: All right.
Margaret Boersma: Good.
Kaley Clavell: how to open a Google Doc and type and know how to organize my thinking on there because that's the world that we live in. So I think right now teachers are just, that's a spiral in our minds constantly.
Mike Williams: So this is where.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: And this is where I'm going to break off with you, right? And not that we've ever disagreed on anything, you know, because, you know, let's go. You know, like, I hear you, but I also think that one of the things that we didn't get into was the fact that it's not only the kids right now that we're teaching that are tech driven, but it's also their parents. I am...
Kaley Clavell: Bring it Mike, bring it.
Mike Williams: I am at the age now where I think I just turned 43. I'm not really a hundred percent sure. And I'm starting to realize that I'm getting older and the parents who are coming in for conferences are not, right? And so I've read, know, I'm, I'm, I actually like to call it distinguished. Um, now this, um, this gray that's growing up the pride of my head. No, no, this is distinguished. Okay. Get it right. Um,
Margaret Boersma: They're getting younger.
Kaley Clavell: The balding that's happening. Right. There you go.
Mike Williams: But to your point, right, like if a parent challenges you and says, well, you really care about handwriting, right? I don't know how to justify that anymore because really the handwriting is something we could go the entire day without writing something. And when you were talking, Kaylee, I'm thinking to myself like,
Kaley Clavell: Yeah
Mike Williams: All right. What's something that I absolutely have to write? And the first thing that came to my mind was a grocery list. Yeah, no. ⁓ we have no tabs. Right. And so like I'm saying to myself, and here's where I get off the train of being difficult on this whole thing is I only think that like AI can be dangerous. Right. Every, every AI system comes with this disclaimer that
Margaret Boersma: Now you can have your notes in your...
Mike Williams: Anything I say could be wrong, right? Which is great because you have people going to AI for medical advice, for legal advice, like it's like going to Google, right? So, so like, I think that teaching these kids how to properly use these tools is going to propel them further in their world.
Kaley Clavell: I agree. But the problem is when the AI and these tools start to replace thinking and critical thinking and ⁓ problem solving. that's where, like, I gave an assignment today in my class. We were doing a short response, of course, preparing for our lovely state test. And one of my students used AI. It's a real thing. And I asked him, like, but do you
Mike Williams: you
Kaley Clavell: Do you, can you read back to me what you wrote? And he said, no. And I was like, so that's, that's where I have an issue. Like maybe we can use it for outlines. Maybe we can use it for, ⁓ coming up with a new word and learning that vocabulary. What I can't accept is that you're giving me something that you have no idea what it says. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Yep, no, I'm with you.
Margaret Boersma: And that's why I think it's important to think about how we ask students to show what they've learned. And I think the UDL, the Universal Design Learning is great because you get to give them different choices or their own choice. You could write a poem, you could do a dance, you could do a play, a scene from a play. You could do an art project, but I want to know the depth of your learning.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And then with that, they may need to be interviewed ⁓ because just sitting there or giving papers, especially at the university, that's all the way they do it. Most of them don't do anything else than we're assessing you by writing. And that's not really fair either because not everyone's a good writer, but they might have a great knowledge of what you've just taught the unit. So we do have to find other ways of
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: assessing but also other ways of getting the knowledge too. And I just, ⁓ sorry, I was just going to comment on your handwriting thing. I haven't looked it up but apparently there's research on why handwriting is important to learn especially when you're younger and it has to do with brain development. that's all I know about it but you might want to want to see if you can give an answer to your question.
Mike Williams: I am so, no, am stupid.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, I know. Sorry, Mike, let me. Mike, Mike's going to fight me after this.
Mike Williams: No, no. I'm used to stepping back. I'm married, so let's go.
Kaley Clavell: I know that there's research supporting that when you actually write something down, how it helps your memory and retention of the information. I know that, but yeah, I, that's something to.
Mike Williams: I'm not going to fight you on it because when I went through high school, ⁓ that's how I passed my final exams is I rewrote my notes. It was the only way I was remembering things. I understand that. I guess my comment was more towards, you know, if, if, if.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Mike Williams: If we're going to argue against testing culture, which all of us do, right? Then then the real purpose of school is to prepare the kids for the world that they're about to enter. But we don't, we're not fortune tellers. I mean, if you're an 11th and 12th grade teacher, you may have an easier job of this than you and I do. Kelly, cause we're fifth and sixth grade teachers. Right? So, so anyway, I, I, I just, I think it's a really good conversation. And I, and I think to the. you know the nine people that listen to this, ⁓ you know, I think that...
Kaley Clavell: Margaret, don't worry. think we're up to like maybe 12 and then we can hear if whoever's home with you. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Yeah, yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. This is a new venture. ⁓ you know, like I would just say that I think a careful balance is okay. And Margaret, you said something that really set my radar up, which is this, like this alternate way of assessing students. And if you're going to ask students to write a short response, then I don't really see the reason why. If you're going to give three short responses, two can be written and one can be, Hey, create a tick tock video with your friend explaining the answer. Right. I think that those things, I think that's the way I would like to embrace this stuff. Because I think when we go after what the kids really like, we're showing an interest in what they like. I mean, you know, I tell the kids all the time, I have a tick tock account and then I make up some wild name and tell them that I have nine followers and 26 likes and they all laugh at me and and it's probably true but the point is is that I've put myself in their world you know and and like I wish these kids put as much effort into other things as they do searching for me on tik-tok on account that I don't even know the name for but But I guess the point is, know, embracing the things that they like to bring what they actually know out, right? And that to me is important because, Kaley, you you you said about that AI example, it's the same thing I do. When a kid comes up to me and says, this is my answer, I say, great, what's this word mean? They're like, what word? I'm like, this word. I don't know, where did you find that? I said, I found it in your answer. Like, so let's talk about it, right? Let's move here.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. Perfect.
Mike Williams: to something because I think it's going to tie into what we're talking about now. And I really liked this. So Margaret, I'm going to ask you to unpack something for me, right? When you and I talked, right? Prior to this, you were talking a lot about, you know, soft skills and framing them as essential life skills. So I'm wondering if you could unpack that for
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Mike Williams: for the masses of people.
Margaret Boersma: Sure, and it picks up on what you were saying about teaching your students to be ready for life after school. Like actually they need to be ready for life today, not only after school. So I'll just say that. But ⁓ I think what we need to focus on is those soft skills because those are essential skills. You know, when children get out into the workplace, they don't lose their jobs because they don't have the tech skills or the knowledge of the industry. They lose it because they can't get along with their peers.
Kaley Clavell: Now, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: So those are soft skills and we have to train them right from kindergarten and before. Like it's so important. Children need to know how to self-regulate. A lot of children can't do that anymore. They let off big emotions, they throw dusts around, they're violent in schools. And teachers are leaving in droves as a result. It's really sad and appalling what's happening and it's not the children's fault and it's not the teacher's fault and it's not the leader's fault because we weren't equipped to teach what's happening right now because of the conditions in the world. And when I say that, mean, you know, we're not aware of what... ⁓ these devices that the kids are addicted to and the adult role models are addicted to, what is happening? This is the very first generation or two in the history of mankind where we've had this technology that's so pervasive, this thing that's so pervasive without having tested it and we're seeing the results. And so I think what we need to teach at the youngest ages are those soft skills. So those would include skills like cooperating, not just the attention span and the impulse control and the regulation, but really get into communication skills. How do you really listen to someone and make it clear to them that you heard them? You have to paraphrase and empathize, or summarize and empathize. And how do you do that?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: You know, when you've got your own opinion in your own head and you feel like if you're doing that, you're agreeing with them, which is not the case at all. And this is the kind of things that we need to teach when everyone is calm. This is proactive teaching of essential skills. And once people feel like you heard them, there's a space that's created where they can hear what you have to say.
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: But until that happens, they're just listening with, am I going to say next? And then I'll jump down their throat. And it's not good communication, and it does not work.
Kaley Clavell: Margaret, can you give any teachers who are listening ⁓ just ⁓ a quick lesson idea on how to model that type of communication?
Margaret Boersma: Okay, so here's an example. This is a very typical example. You're on recess duty and there's kids playing on the soccer field and one kid doesn't get invited in. In fact, every day at recess this 10-year-old asks, can I play soccer with you? No. And so they come to the teacher. What do they want from the teacher? They want the teacher to resolve the conflict. What do we normally teach our children who do that? We teach them to rely on adults to solve their emotional and social problems. Instead, we can recreate what they're saying so paraphrase and empathize so it sounds like you'd really like to play and they're saying no and that makes you feel horrible or just say that sucks whatever language the kid understands right and say it in a very empathetic way and it might set them into tears and that's okay come and walk with me for a bit and then when they're really reasonably calm and you might have to do it more than once but it's always the same response. Yes and then I've been there every day this week and they still say no. ⁓ my goodness you've been trying every day this week. That is so hard to take. It feels like rejection and you say this to the kid and you watch his emotional temperature come down. So only when it's down can you do the next step and that is what would you like to do about it?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Right.
Margaret Boersma: So you're leaving the...
Mike Williams: This is this sounds like a place where ⁓ we're modeling could also be a thing too, you know, ⁓ So so I know that we don't want to give kids the resolution but I also know that there are kids out there who Come from places where things are not often Shown
Margaret Boersma: No.
Mike Williams: This way right so i'm thinking of the example you gave and let's say there's nine kids Right, and it ends up being four on four as well. What do do with the extra kid? ⁓ you can't play your extra right then it's like all right as As an adult i'm dealing with younger kids Maybe i'll say you know what i'm gonna play now Right? So now we have what? We have five on five, right? So how can we solve this problem going forward? Right? You put yourself into the situation, you let the kids kind of work it out, you know, mentally. But I see what you're saying and I really like it. It makes me think about something that I read about ⁓ for younger students and the importance of play. Right? Like, cause play is something that teaches kids these different things. I am the father of twins. Right? So my kids went to school already a leg up on cooperation and collaboration. But when you have a kid who's a kindergartner on his first day of school, who never went to a daycare, never went to this and that, you're, you're going to see this child have a hard time. Right?
Margaret Boersma: The difference, yeah. Do want me to continue with my example?
Mike Williams: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: No, I'm hearing what you're saying, Mike, and that is one possibility, right? Like you're saying, you know, you could insert yourself into the game and then they'd have equal teams, but it wouldn't be equal because now it's like two people. ⁓ But I hear what you're saying, but I want to leave the ball in their court. So rather than me as a teacher saying, well, we could try this, I could come and play, leave the ball in the kids court and say, what would you like to do about it? And it's amazing when they're in a state of calm, how creative they can be. Well, The first thing they probably say is, could come and tell them that they have to let me play, because we still don't know the reason why they're not there. And that doesn't matter. The reason doesn't matter. What would you like to do about it? And so have them come up with two or three good suggestions and then ask them, which one would you like to try first? And then say, how would you like me to support you? You're not doing it for them.
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: Well, maybe you could come with me when I ask them again to play. Yeah, I could do that. So then you just stand there and you ask again. And you know, in the end, it could be that the kid wasn't a good enough player, that the kid needs to have a one-on-one with the person who keeps saying no, because they're likely the alpha in the group.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: And so maybe outside of that situation, those two kids have a conversation and it's discovered that one can't play up to the caliber and the other one is losing face if they say, you can play. And then they have to problem solve that. So what are they going to do? Well, it could be that the one who's having a one-on-one and keep saying no says, I'll help you every day at lunchtime or after school for 15 minutes to get your skills up. It's amazing what happens. It's amazing.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: But you have to leave it in their court, otherwise they keep, they learn, kids are learning no matter what we intend for them to learn. And we are always teaching them that they need an adult to solve these problems and they don't.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, what I'm hearing is promoting advocacy within children from a young age and also waiting until we're not, it's not the heat of the moment to have those solving conversations. ⁓ I think that is where personally I used to go wrong as a...
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Kaley Clavell: first year teacher, second year teacher learning, right? it sometimes it's still, you mentioned before that a student's ⁓ answer was the reason why they're not able to do X, Y, and Z is because of time. And I think adults struggle with that too, because we have an agenda and we have a million students. And sometimes it just takes a second to sit back and listen to a student. And if you can't,
Margaret Boersma: May 2.
Kaley Clavell: in that moment and you can't give it that time, by you reacting is going to spark another reaction when they're in that red zone and that heat of the moment, right? So what are some strategies or skills you would say to a teacher of like, I'm constantly listening to problems and after recess, I'm getting bombarded with all of these problems. What can you say to a student that you
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Kaley Clavell: actually do not have time to solve that problem right away. What's some language that we could give teachers of, care about what you're saying, I can't handle that right now. Like what is it? Yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well just that message, just say it with warmth. You know, I know that you need to talk to me right now and I have to get the class to work. Can you wait a few minutes? Like just have warmth in your voice when you acknowledge their presence and you realize, you tell them I know you want to talk to me right now and I'll get back to you.
Mike Williams: That goes such a long way. mean, just that, just that, because I think that brings your, your demeanor to I'm talking to you with respect. And I, and I always tell people, say, especially when I, when I teach the university students, I tell them, you know, just cause you're standing up in front of a classroom doesn't earn you respect.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: You know, and especially when you get to the kids that like, you know, Kaylee and I teach in the fifth and the sixth grade, they're starting to learn which teachers respect them and which don't. And that message goes a really long way. That tone that, yes, I'd love to help you, but now might not be the best time. You know, talking to kids about... ⁓ I don't know what you call it. Where we came up, we call it like take a break, know, like separate yourself from the situation. Even coaching kids at that point that, why, what did I do? That's not the right time. You know, I'd be happy to talk to you about this, but we'll talk about it later. Right? And I just keep thinking about what you said before ⁓ in the last section. along the lines of, of, of responding, right? Instead of being that reactive, right? It's about being thoughtful. It's all right. Let me think before I say, what did I do? Right? And how do I, how do I do that? So these skills, I, I, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm. It only takes five seconds, sometimes just three. If you train your children to just pause. Mel Robbins wrote the five second rule. It's around this whole concept. Just if they could wait five seconds, they'll come out with a response rather than a reaction. And it will make all the difference to what happens. What? I know, I know. I know, I know. I work with them too. Yes, of course.
Kaley Clavell: Gosh, I don't need this to adults need this to Margaret. Right.
Mike Williams: That's a good lesson for people. That's a good lesson for teachers too. mean, even younger teachers is, know what? Before you want to respond, wait that five seconds. mean, look, I Kelly say something like, I make these mistakes as a new teacher, as a second year. I'm sitting here going, I make these mistakes as an 11 year veteran. You know, it...
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah, still, totally.
Margaret Boersma: You know, I'll give you an example. A friend of mine taught special ed, high school special ed, and he taught his kids, who were very reactive, right, to do this. Put their hand up and look away if they needed a moment. And so these kids in his class knew that. So one day, one of the kids was running down the hall because the announcements were on and another teacher stopped him and say, Hey, Michael, stop it. Stop running. And he went like this to the teacher, took a breath and the teacher knew that sign, even though she wasn't taught. Right. And then he responded rather than reacted. And it saved him from going to the principal's office.
Kaley Clavell: Thank God. Yeah. Right, right, And I'm glad.
Margaret Boersma: I think we should all teach our kids that.
Mike Williams: And ⁓ that's the importance of communication to all the teachers out there. Communicate your signals before somebody thinks otherwise.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think I'm glad you brought up, special education, just because I'm in a position now where I am teaching, we have a luxury in our school to have a program called the nest program, which is, ⁓ designed for students with autism. And what I've been learning is, you know, different ways to.
Margaret Boersma: Proactive teaching.
Kaley Clavell: ensure that my thoughts and my ideas are cared for and that although I cannot get to them immediately, something that we use as a tool is a parking lot, a physical parking lot for I'm parking my question here and when my teacher has a minute, that question will be removed from my parking lot, right? I'm parking my thought here and that visual of like, wrote down what I had to say or My ideas in my head and my car is parked here and my teacher knows that I have something to say right now that's very urgent to me. Those types of ⁓ that type of nonverbal communication is really essential. And even if you know had a student at the beginning of year that would immediately say like I'm not done. I'm not done like immediately when a timer went off or anything like that. So I you have to recognize those types of trigger points as a as a teacher and What worked for him was just this signal right here, just putting up a number one of, need another minute. So his hand goes up, I give him one of these and that's it, right? Like no problem, not even thinking about it. And so I said, sometimes I won't even do this, but you doing this tells me everything I need to know. And let's just keep moving on. So ⁓ I think Mike, what we talked about in the last episode was a lot ⁓ to do with relationships.
Margaret Boersma: Nice. Yeah. Beautiful.
Kaley Clavell: And I think that this also ties into this conversation of like understanding the needs within your classroom and also understanding that needs are ever changing. And I think maybe we can get into that type of conversation of like behaviors and what they tell us and what we can do as teachers. don't know if that's not a question, but Mike, I don't know if you had a question for that, but I think that's a, that kind of relates to what we're saying right now of like. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Kaley Clavell: what can we do as teachers ⁓ to understand changes in behaviors and what should our moves look like based on the changes of behaviors.
Margaret Boersma: So what can we do to understand behaviors and then change them?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. What can we do to under- yeah, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: Okay. Behaviors is the...
Kaley Clavell: Or what is the story that behaviors tell us? Maybe that's kind of what I...
Margaret Boersma: Behaviors talk about unmet needs. Behaviors are communication and a chance for us as teachers to get information. This kid is throwing stuff around the room. What is that telling me? That their alarm system is going off. And then dig deeper. Why is their alarm system going off? What's happening in the classroom?
Kaley Clavell: Right.
Margaret Boersma: that maybe they're overly sensitive to the environment. Maybe, and that includes the walls and all the bright colored anchor charts and it's all like noise to them. It's nothing calming. And we live in a world right now where things are alarming. And if they're exposed to the news, that's alarming. And there's so many alarms going off. And so even for kids who are not over sensitive,
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, Great.
Margaret Boersma: they also need a place that calm. Routines are calming. When we say, surprise, we're doing this now, that's alarming. So it really is, especially to the sensitive kids, right? So calm walls, calm decor, calm demeanor, follow routines and understand that behavior is just communication.
Kaley Clavell: That's true.
Margaret Boersma: and a chance to get information. That's all it is. Children do not have the language and the verbiage and to be able to express themselves in moods. And so when we complain that our children have inappropriate behavior, stop inappropriate. Okay, their alarm system is going off. They're having a temper tantrum. That's information. It's an impulse. It's nothing they can do anything about because they haven't been taught to respond, to take that chill moment, to even recognize what their inner voices are telling them. You know, all have, here's a really good book. ⁓ A kindergarten teacher just wrote, I'm helping her develop curriculum for it. It's called Harmony Hair and Her Three Voices. It's a book about self-talk. And in that book, this little rabbit realizes she has three voices, and we all do. The victim, the villain, and the hero. The villain says, I can't do this. It's just way too much. I'm so overwhelmed. I'll never get this. The villain's It's not my fault, it's your fault or it's the government's fault. I mean, we all have this. So I'm thinking adults too, right? It's always someone else's fault and it's an aggressive kind of behavior that we have. other one, the is inward, the villain is outward, the victim is passive, the villain is aggressive. But then we all have a hero voice. What does the hero voice do? The hero voice is calm and confident.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret Boersma: the hero voice can tap in on its inner wisdom. How do we do that? And how can we teach that proactively? And that my work that I did with grade three to fives in December and the same unit only at the grade seven level in January, I developed a ⁓ unit, cross-curricular unit for those ages on that book. Even though the grade sevens, I never read it to them.
Kaley Clavell: Wow.
Margaret Boersma: because it looks like a kindergarten book, but adults resonate with it big time. And so I think we need to teach which voice is coming out. And if we really want our hero voice, we need to be able to respond and not react. It's all tied together.
Kaley Clavell: So true. I love that.
Mike Williams: You said something interesting to me. ⁓ First off, I'm glad you said that thing about unmet needs. I think that one of those unmet needs, and I just want to reiterate this because you said it a couple of times, one of those unmet needs, Might be that they don't know how to handle what you're asking them and they're just default is to Do what they do when they're not getting their way Anywhere else right and I think that that's really important for people to understand I think all too often and I'll speak for myself here. I think we take We take behaviors personally
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: as teachers and I think that separating yourself from the child's actions is important. The kid is probably not doing it to aggravate you. The kid is probably not doing it. I mean, look, are there kids who are capable of it? Sure. But it's unlikely, right? And then the second thing you said, and this is more of like a, know, teaching grade five,
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: this concept of reading children's books to older kids, find they love it. I mean...
Margaret Boersma: They often do. I just didn't do it because of who they were.
Mike Williams: No, no, no, I just completely understand. I mean, as far as a method goes for really any kids, they don't hate being read to, you know?
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ yeah.
Kaley Clavell: No, read alouds, talk about calming. Read alouds are like everything. Yeah.
Mike Williams: Right. Yeah. And it's pretty cool too, because it's like, know, even... I don't want to say this the wrong way, but even like even when you read a kindergarten book with seventh graders like you might be reading it in like a different tone and it's like okay come on students let's everybody go to the rug right like but but the kids they still enjoy it and you can still get a lot out of that and and yeah I I I wrote down the name of that book and I'm gonna probably ask you you know you said it's still being developed or it's done yeah so i'm gonna ask i'm gonna make sure i got the right one because i think that that's pretty cool ⁓ just developing this this this this this voice for kids because you know
Margaret Boersma: No, it's done. You can get it on Amazon. Yeah. Notice Your Self-Talk is what I called the units that I developed.
Mike Williams: Yes, yeah, I think it's great. All right, so let's just do a couple more things. I am very sure we're close to an hour at this point. have no idea. wow, look at that. I want to go back to one thing about your soft skills, right?
Kaley Clavell: 52 minutes.
Mike Williams: The soft skills the the the the life skills because I happen to agree with you a lot on that I I love teaching those I think they're more important For some students we could talk day and night about differentiation, but I think differentiation Doesn't necessarily mean I'm teaching The same lesson to students different as I'm giving what this kid needs right and this kid needs soft skills and this child needs something totally different so anyway I'm thinking about just kind of maybe giving teachers some ideas of what practical ways we can build these skills inside of classrooms every day. Do you have any favorites?
Margaret Boersma: Yep. I put a whole ⁓ ebook together of games ⁓ that are interactive games, not board games, not computer games, but games that really apply these soft skills and then debrief. And the learning is in the debrief. How did you feel when someone didn't go along with your idea in your group? And what did you do? and you know what would you do another time differently that might bring a different result those are really key questions in a debrief of these games but the games are free and people can just write me and I'll send it to them yeah right
Mike Williams: I'll make sure to include that because I want that. That's important. and it's another thing that keeps coming to my mind is this notion of this almost sounds in a way like teaching social studies, right? Cause we, we, we, That was the reason I was hired at the university was to teach a course on social studies. It's what I like to do. It's what I really enjoy. And one of the biggest aha moments for the students at the university was that social studies is not history. It's not. Part of it's history, right? But part of it's also creating citizens, creating good citizens. And...
Margaret Boersma: Yes, I love using social studies themes for my ⁓ educational drama projects.
Mike Williams: And yeah, so like I think about the the
Kaley Clavell: ⁓
Mike Williams: So if a teacher looks and says, these guys are talking about all this, this, this stuff and where do we find the time? I would argue the times built into your schedule already. You know, you talk about social studies in a way that this is a place where we can insert these different lessons, these different. Cooperative learning things these different things because because at the end of the day What is a good citizen? It's a good citizen is somebody who works well with others who who listens who respects and and that starts day one of kindergarten, know, and and it ends Never it really just never ends so I love that. I I love the I I would love to, could I ask you just to talk real quickly about these educational dramas?
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Sure. Another word for it is process drama. So I have a specialist in that and it's not very well known in the US, but I have done a number of workshops with the American Alliance for Theatre Educators in different parts of the US on process drama. And basically I take a story, often a story book, but it could be a story that the kids make up from scratch, and we do it as a collective. rather than talking about a in third person, there it's in first person so they become a character in the story. So for example like you guys are a grade five so I'm just thinking of an example of something I might have done with grade five. Let's just say here's a grade two example because it comes to mind really fast. There's a book called The King's Fountain and the King
Mike Williams: Yeah, no, that's fine. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: loves to build a great big fountain on the top of his mountain and doesn't realize that all the money and resources take away from the water supply of the villagers down below. And so in grade two, it's a cross-curricular unit. We build it, we make a great big map on a piece of mural paper. What does it look like and what are we going to do about this? So there's a problem in the story. They're the villagers ⁓ and so they take on their own role and they improvise it and we bring it to life so that they really own it. And we have different tools that we use in the drama to do that. It's not theater. Just don't confuse it. But it's first-person literature, really. First-person story building. then they decide, inevitably, and it's student voice here all the time, because as an artist, I take what they say and move it in the direction that they go in and let them experience the consequences. So mostly in that story,
Kaley Clavell: Mm.
Margaret Boersma: The grade twos would say, I think we need to talk to the king because it's just not fair. And they're very livid about it too. So we can talk about emotions in that and learn from that. And I say, okay, so let's get together in partners, because you want small groups at that age, and make a plan. What are you going to say to the king? Write it down. And draw a picture, whatever you want. So they practice, and then we talk about... You can't talk to the king the way you talk to your dog. so this is built in, right? Like a lot of kids don't realize that when they're talking to the principal, it's not talking to an equal, you know, and how do you make that distinction? And so ⁓ there was guards there and I was, I think I was one of the guards. never the person in control. I mean, I'm in control of class. Like when we have a group, a town hall meeting or something, I'll be the chairperson, but someone else is the leader. and the rest of the class is all part of it. So they're always in role and I bring in different problems in the role, but in that particular example, at one point I had a student teacher who came in part way through the unit and so when we got to the point of, ⁓ you know, their presentations were passable for the guards and they were really good and everyone sitting in a row like this and listening to everyone else get, nope, go back, do it again, this isn't good enough, this isn't good enough and so So they learn, but in a fun way, right? It's not like your essay sucks, do it again. It's like, fix this! And so, and they have a motivation to do it because they want to get across to the king. So my student teacher put a chair on top of a table one day and sat there like the king and put a crown on and they were like, whoa, there's a king!
Kaley Clavell: Right. That's great.
Margaret Boersma: And so it was precious. And so then we have an ending for it and we wrap it all up and they include writing, often writing in roll. Because once they experience something, writing in roll is, the writing is so much richer because they've experienced it. So, you know, write a letter to the king. ⁓ you know what do you want to say to them and then from there they take the essence of what they actually say anyways all that to say it's it's amazing I teach five half days in one classroom at a time and I do it through demonstration lessons so when other teachers come in they watch this and they're like blown away can't wait to do it in their class and so I've developed a lot of these units myself but it's all social emotional learning in the end it's the foundation skills of being able to live in society. And that's what we need to teach.
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, absolutely.
Mike Williams: I do have to disclaim that CollabEd cannot be responsible for anybody who puts a chair on top of a desk and falls. So just throwing that out there. Anyway. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: I love that idea though. I'm so performative in teaching and I love that. I have a, my old co-teacher, Ms. Clark, we used to do something called ⁓ the Clark Hell Theater and we would always do stuff like that and dress up. so I'm fully all for it. I will be sitting on a table as a ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Ha ha ha! Cool.
Kaley Clavell: as a king coming soon, Margaret, I'll send you a picture.
Margaret Boersma: Hahaha! ⁓
Mike Williams: not holding CollabEd responsible for it in any way, shape or form.
Margaret Boersma: But someone else has to be the king anyways. You want the kids to be in the power role and you are in the moderator role always. But you can get a kid to figure out how they're going to be in a safe position, a little elevated from the rest. Like one way to do it is to get them in a chair and everyone else sitting down on the floor. Mike's feeling better.
Kaley Clavell: Alright, fine, I'll give it up. I'll give it a s- I'll give you a s- All right.
Mike Williams: That's better. All right. We're good. Collab at indoors is that it? Kayla be sitting on the roof of her building. ⁓ Anyway ⁓ So so yeah, I mean look we could we could talk for hours clearly ⁓ and this is Been very informative, but I do want to respect people's time. So I'm looking at the last two things that we had down here that I kind of wanted to chat about and ironically they both
Kaley Clavell: I'm with the latter still. We'll figure it out. Yep. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Mm-hmm.
Mike Williams: cover similar, similar type tasks, right? And so I guess I wanted to, to, to explore this question as kind of our last thing. How can teachers integrate creativity and choice without lowering standards? So you made mention before of universal design for learning, right? And then, and then that question, I looked at another question and it kind of said the same thing to me, which was how do we protect creativity and real world skill development inside the systems that prioritize scores? So when we put those two questions together, like, I mean, I know for me, and I'll, and I'll start by, by just putting a story out there, you know, New York state here in, in, the U S has put out a new science testing curriculum and the old science test used to be which of these is a living, breathing thing. The new science test is read this entire passage, analyze all these pieces of data and evidence and answer these questions. So we're talking about two totally different things, right? And I was initially very worried about how the kids would perform on it until I realized that... A lot of what we do pushes critical thinking skills, right? A lot of what we do pushes analysis. A lot of what we do just inherently, at least in where I am at, pushes these skills. So while I was worried about the new format, the kids actually did okay on it. I'm not going to say they did great, you know, because I don't think anybody did great, but I know that we were okay. ⁓ And so it tells me that there's a way to keep creativity and real world skill development even inside the reality that we all live in. And we all know that that reality is these scores and this. So I'd love to kind of just wrap up talking about what comes to mind when I, when I throw that out there.
Margaret Boersma: So I think you're asking like when we.
Mike Williams: Yeah, I'm not really good at asking questions. I'll get better at this, promise. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: Well, I just wanted to make sure I hit it, hit the nail on the head. When it's a test culture, how do you keep creativity in there? Is that what you're asking?
Mike Williams: How do we keep the kids interested in test culture? I guess that's my overarching question.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah. Yeah, I would say, ⁓ first here's what I need to tell you. Here in Canada, we do not have the same test culture as you do in America. We have tests that are provincial tests and in grade three, six, nine and ten. and the rest of the time we don't have provincial tests. So the emphasis on testing is way higher in the U.S. So I want to address your question. I'll just say that here we look at a triangle for assessment. We look at observation. We look at final product and we look at conversation. When we have a conversation with the students we gain understanding of what they know and don't know. When we observe what they're doing in groups and outside of groups and with their time and that's another way of assessing and the final product. So the emphasis is not on the test or the final product. The emphasis is equally amongst those three in that triangle. When it comes to creativity, I'm wondering if, I don't even know if teachers know the test in advance. But if you know what kind of question it is, and you can extrapolate what it is they need to know and find a creative way to teach that, they're going to know it inside out and backwards. And just because they see it in another format on the test, they'll know it. If it's not engaging when they learn it, they won't remember it for the test.
Mike Williams: and I think this speaks to what we talked about earlier right ⁓ a kid if a kid knows what a main idea is then speaking it or writing it shouldn't make a difference right so like this is where I would I would throw out this this conversation and this this this advice to teachers is that
Margaret Boersma: Right.
Mike Williams: part of the hardest thing we do is trying to engage our students. And I think that the engagement really is just about finding different ways to let them do things. It's just about finding creative ways to let them do things. And we happen to be in a conversation with one of the people who I've never seen anybody be able to do this like.
Kaley Clavell: you
Mike Williams: Kaylee does, right? And it's the reason that she's so successful as a teacher is because she finds these ways to relate to the kids and to get them to bring out their best. I would just say that this is so important.
Kaley Clavell: Thanks Mike, that was the nicest thing you've said to me on this podcast. I appreciate you.
Mike Williams: You know, not for nothing, but I thought that that introduction was pretty nice too, all right? Like that was, I worked hard on that. I worked hard on that one, all right? Anyway, no, but I really, and I think it's important. And I think that the more you can do for the kids to help them understand these things.
Kaley Clavell: the tapping of your salad. Thank you.
Mike Williams: I I sat across from a classroom the other day. We're in a very unique building where ⁓ there's three different schools in our building. And so some of the rooms are shared. And this was a room for another school and they were doing test prep. it was test prep. was questioned. was test prep. was questioned. was test prep. was questioned. And we've all been there. We've all done it. We're all guilty. And my brain has just gone to the point where it's like, what are we doing?
Kaley Clavell: Yeah, but if you do those things, Mike, I'm sorry I have to cut you off. if you do those things, there's ways to make it interesting. We used to play slash the trash kit ball, where if you have to learn this skill, this silly skill, and you can find a way to make it cool by like slashing the trash, crumbling up the trash answers, throwing them in the garbage, making, you know, there are some things that I feel like we're not going to change, unfortunately, right now. and that's standardized testing where we live. How can, I think it's really just the conversation of like, we gotta figure out the brains behind what are the skills really that these kids need to know? How do we build on that? Because like you said, like there are people that are gonna remain in the boring rote. Question, question, question, question. But. Does the data really support that those kids are improving in any way? Probably not.
Mike Williams: But it's kind of funny you said that because that that's kind of where I was going with this whole thing was that I think the challenge for us and the challenge coming off of this podcast becomes what am I as a teacher doing to engage those students? And, I think that the answer needs to be whatever interests them. Let's, let's, let's get there. Let's get there. Let's figure it out. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yep.
Mike Williams: And so that's really what I came off of here today. Kind of in this conversation with you guys, I think we talked about a lot of great stuff about behavior. ⁓ I, I really, really don't know of any better way to say it than you said it, Margaret about. you know, unmet needs. think that your points on these essential life skills are just so, it's so important to be able to, it's almost like the why behind what we do, right? Why do kids have to know what the main idea is? I could argue that it's an analysis thing. Right? You're analyzing, you're learning how to analyze and you're to analyze for the rest of your life. You're going to analyze decisions. Right? So I, I, I really am just blown away by this last hour plus at this point. Um, and I really, I don't know how many different ways I can say thank you for being here. Um, I, I know you mentioned that ebook, um,
Margaret Boersma: The Thriving Teacher Guide. It's called The Thriving Teacher Guide.
Mike Williams: what I will do. What is it? and that could be found where?
Margaret Boersma: They have to email me, mb at margaretborisma.com. That's B-O-E-R-S-M-A.
Mike Williams: Okay. Alright, so I'm going to put that on our platform. ⁓ You know what else I'm going to do is I'm also going to put a. ⁓ We're going to be rolling out a new section of this thing where we have ⁓ a resource sharing type thing and then what I'll do is I'll also include this in our research sharing saying hey, this is what it is. If you'd like a copy email. Margaret and I'll put your information in there because.
Margaret Boersma: Yeah.
Mike Williams: That's really cool stuff. And I just want to say thank you. I don't know if you have anything you want to add before you go, or if you just want to go to bed. It's up to you. ⁓
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ no, I've really enjoyed this conversation too. So thank you so much, Mike and Kaylee. It's just been such a pleasure. I'm happy to come back if you would want me to come back and talk.
Mike Williams: Well good, we're doing episode three tomorrow, so if you, you know.
Margaret Boersma: I could talk a little bit more about the novelty. Our brains love novel and novelty. And so that's how you make lessons engaging if you know it's novel to the kids. And I have so many ways that I do that. And because I'm a teaching artist, but also because... We have a specialty here. have ⁓ extra active courses that you can take after you become a teacher. You probably have that too. But we have part one, two and three of what's called a drama specialist and I have part three. So the specialist part of it and I have put it into practice for years and years already. And that's how I got on the roster as a teaching artist. And it's beautiful because we have five half days with one class in one school and five half days with another class in that school. really get to know the kids, you get to know their needs, and it keeps me grounded while I work with whole schools. I partner with schools because I really think that the leaders in the school also don't know what to do. And I would love to, if anybody's on this podcast hears me, just reach out and we'll have an initial conversation and see if it's something I can support you with.
Mike Williams: Great. Well, thank you. ⁓
Kaley Clavell: Thank you, Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: You're welcome.
Mike Williams: It's always a pleasure Margaret. Thank you and I yeah, we'll we'll we can set up a We'll call it like a reboot, you know and get back and continue this conversation because I think it would be worth it
Kaley Clavell: And I also think that what you have, just the tips that you've given have been really helpful. So maybe we can just do like some short little clips that people can click on and collab at. And if you like that idea and you're listening, comment below if you want to get some clips and tips from Margaret.
Margaret Boersma: ⁓ Thank you. Happy to help. Perfect.
Mike Williams: That's on the horizon. We're working on that. ⁓ That's about it. That's all I can say. Guys, thank you. Appreciate you. Have a great night. until next time, folks, we'll see you then. All right, bye. Thanks.
Kaley Clavell: Cool. Until next time, see ya.
Margaret Boersma: Okay, bye bye.
