Why Engineers Struggle as Tech Leads

Jack Cole: and I've seen people really struggle to become a multiplayer. I can actually think of one person who I'd hired as an engineering
Pat Kua: And I've seen people really struggle to become a multiplayer, right? I can actually think of one person who I'd hired and, you know, as an engineering manager.
Jack Cole: and they literally couldn't get rid of coding.
Pat Kua: And they literally couldn't get rid of coding. And I was pretty clear in terms of like, okay, that's not what I expect. That's not what the organization needs. And it was something that they couldn't let go. And, you know, they were really experienced person in the industry, but part of their pool was wanting to be a maker because it was fun because it was comfortable.
Jack Cole: I was pretty clear in terms of like, okay, that's not what I expect, that's not what the organization needs. And was something that they couldn't let go. And, you know, they were really experienced people in the industry, but part of their... was wanting to be a maker because it was fun, because it was comfortable.
Pat Kua: But I think one of the challenges as a maker is that sometimes you sort of do things that you think are helping your team, but it's not really being a multiplayer.
Jack Cole: But I think one of the challenges as a baker is that sometimes you sort of do things that you think are helping your team, but it's not really being a multiplayer. break. And literally when I was coming back at the airport on Sunday to London, staff had called me and they're like, please don't go back to this project, we'd like you to go to this project and we'd like you to lead the team. And like probably a lot of...
Pat Kua: And literally when I was coming back at the airport on Sunday to London, staffing called me and they're like, you know, please don't go back to this project. We'd like you to go to this project and we'd like you to lead the team. And like probably a lot of people who experienced that transition from being a builder maker to leading technical teams. was like, what do I do now?
Jack Cole: who experienced that transition from being a builder, maker, to leading technical teams. I was like, what do I do now?
Pat Kua: I have no idea.
Jack Cole: I have no idea. Hello everyone. And welcome back to this week's episode on the build reg podcast. I'm your host Jack Cole. And today we're talking about one of the most dangerous promotions in tech, which is the moment you stop being the person who builds and start being the person responsible for the people who do the building and joining me today is Pat Kua. So Pat, welcome to the show.
Pat Kua: Hi Jack, thanks for having me, pleasure to be here.
Jack Cole: Pat, the first time I heard your name, I was speaking to an engineering director and he referenced your work and described you as a bit of a legend. I guess for anyone who's not heard of your name, would you mind just giving us like a little bit of an introduction so people got context to who you are and what you're all about.
Pat Kua: Sure. Firstly, that's very kind of you, and thank you very much. I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a legend, but standing on the top of lots of shoulders of giants and hopefully contributing some value there as well. Yeah, so my name is Pacqua, and I'm based in Berlin, Germany these days, and worked in technology for about 25 years. I've been on that path of being a developer.
Jack Cole: started. I ended up working as a consultant for about 14 years with ThoughtWorks. I ended up leading technical teams. I started helping a lot of CTOs and VPs in engineering transform their organizations, platforms and technology.
Pat Kua: I ended up working as a consultant for a good 14 years with ThoughtWorks, ended up leading technical teams, started helping a lot of CTOs and VPs at engineering transform their organizations, platforms and technology. And yeah, also became a CTO myself. Informally, I've been helping technical leaders and managers grow over the last say 12, 13 years.
Jack Cole: Yeah, I also became a CTO myself. Informally, I've been helping technical leaders and managers grow over the last, say, 12, 13 years.
Pat Kua: but now I've been doing that more full-time independently, with my own company and
Jack Cole: But now I've been doing that more full-time independently, helping my own company.
Pat Kua: the tech lead Academy where I do training for technical leaders and managers as they transition into this challenging role. And then I also do one-to-one coaching with CTOs and VPs engineering these days.
Jack Cole: Tech Lead Academy where I do training for technical leaders and managers as they transition into this challenging world. And then I also do one-to-one coaching with CTOs and engineers these days.
Pat Kua: And I still remember my first time leading a technical team officially, because I was actually in the UK at that time.
Jack Cole: I still remember my first time leading a technical team officially because I was actually in the UK at that time
Pat Kua: staffing called me and they're like, you know, please don't go back to this project. We'd like you to go to this project and we'd like you to lead the team. And like probably a lot of people
Jack Cole: staff had called me and they're like, please don't go back to this project, we'd like you to go to this project and we'd like you to lead the team. And like probably a lot of...
Pat Kua: who experienced that transition from being a builder maker to leading technical teams. was like, what do I do now?
Jack Cole: who experienced that transition from being a builder, maker, to leading technical teams. I was like, what do I do now?
Pat Kua: I have no idea. There's no, there was no rule book or guidebook at the time. and I realized a lot of people struggled with that transition and you know, I also struggled with that transition.
Jack Cole: I have no idea. There was no rule booker or guidebook at time. And I realized a lot of people struggled with that transition. And I also struggled with that transition.
Pat Kua: you know, trying to do the right thing, but I certainly fell into some common anti-patterns. and today I like to help people through that transition because I know what those experiences like, and I know some of the challenges, what it means from being that builder and then suddenly being responsible for a team of builders.
Jack Cole: you know, tried to do the right thing, but I certainly fell into some common antipendence. And today I like to help people through that transition because I know what those experiences like and I know some of the challenges, it means for being that builder and then suddenly being responsible for a team of builders and some of the stresses that you can experience. Class. And then after the stint at ThoughtWorks, you then went to N26 as CTOs who've gone from the consulting world advising to then actually then building.
Pat Kua: and some of the stresses that you're going to experience.
Jack Cole: something more, I guess, like customer face inside. Like how did you find that transition within your career?
Pat Kua: And so I thought it'd be a great opportunity to actually sort of own and live with the consequences of the decisions that's going to have to make. And also to add a lot of value in helping N26 grow, you know, which I feel that we were able to do quite well. grew the technical team from about 55 people to about 300 and I think 70, 80 by the time I left two and a half, three years later. And we were
Jack Cole: And so I thought it'd be a great opportunity to actually sort of own and live with the consequences of the decisions that's gonna have to be. And also to add a lot of value in helping N26 grow, which I feel that we were able to do quite well. I grew the technical team from about 55 people to about 370, 80 by the time I left two and a half, three years later. And we were working really, really well, right? And a lot of companies who scale struggle and...
Pat Kua: working really, really well, right? And a lot of companies who scale struggle. And I think
Jack Cole: think a lot of the experience with consulting helped with that because I was able to understand some of the normal scaling challenges and having a toolkit to understand what might be useful at the time. I'm really also proud to build a really good product. And so that experience was really good and I treasure a lot of the memories and people that I worked with and brought us lot of things that
Pat Kua: a lot of the experience with consulting helped with that because I was able to understand some of the normal scaling challenges and having a toolkit to understand what might be useful at the time. And, you know, really also proud to build a really good product. And so, you know, that experience was really good. And, you know, I treasure a lot of the memories and the people that I worked with and proud of some of the things that we did.
Jack Cole: I did.
Pat Kua: and yeah, always enjoy learning from the experiences I have.
Jack Cole: Yeah, always enjoy learning from the experiences. And then 26 also become a huge success story that I think a lot of people like reference and would love to work for if they're in the local German market. Well, look, Pat, thanks for the context. I feel it was important for people to, guess, like, understand who you are, what you're all about. So using that as a nice segue. So today's theme is transitioning from maker to multiplier. So can you just elaborate what does that actually mean?
Pat Kua: Yeah. So it's a phrase that, I wish I had had when I first started leading technical teams. And, I think one of the challenges of this is it's more about a mindset than it is about like who you are. Right. And so as an example, you know, as a maker, this is why I got into tech is I loved building solutions, like solving a problem, typing some random stuff into a computer.
Jack Cole: So as an example, as a maker, is why I got into tech, is I loved building solutions, like solving a problem, typing some random stuff into a computer
Pat Kua: as a program and then sort of seeing something come to life. And I think this is something that fuels a lot of people in technology. I think it's interesting today with AI tools, because that's challenging that a little bit and that
Jack Cole: as program, and then seeing something come to life. And I think this is something that fuels a lot of people in technology. I think it's interesting today with AI tools, because that's challenging that a little bit.
Pat Kua: programmers in specific are less about like programming the steps and now driving programs that then generate the output. But the idea is still that you're creating something, you're making something. And that's kind of the mode that you work in as an individual contributor, developer, programmer.
Jack Cole: is specific, less about programming the steps and now driving programs that generate the output. But the idea is still that you're creating something, you're making something. And that's kind of the mode that you work in as an individual contributor, developer, programmer.
Pat Kua: what's different about a multiplier is suddenly you're say responsible for a team. So you have different roles for this, like a tech lead, engineering manager, some staff engineers are expected to be a leader. and, you know, the mindset that those people need to have is a multiplayer, but nobody tells people that when you step into that role. And so a lot of the behaviors and habits that you had in your previous role, which were all about making.
Jack Cole: What's different about a multiplayer is suddenly you're responsible for a team. So you have different roles for this, the tech lead, engineering manager, some staff engineers are expected to be a leader. the mindset that those people need to have is a multiplayer, but nobody tells people that when you step into that role. And so a lot of the behaviors and habits that you had in your previous role were all about making you. People think, well, I need to do more
Pat Kua: people think, well, I need to do more of that
Jack Cole: of that and I need to be the best maker and that can actually be counterproductive to being a multiplier. So that's why I kind of talk about this transition of making to multiplier is that when you do find yourself in a leadership role, the right mindset now to really be thinking about is what am I doing to multiply the effectiveness of the people I'm leading.
Pat Kua: and I need to be the best maker. And that can actually be counterproductive to being a multiplier. And so that's why I kind of talk about this transition of maker to multiplier is that when you do find yourself in a say leadership or management role, the right mindset now to really be thinking about is what am I doing to multiply the effectiveness of the people I'm leading or managing? And sometimes, often.
Jack Cole: Sometimes, often,
Pat Kua: It means that you're not going to be a maker. And that's a real sort of identity struggle for a lot of people.
Jack Cole: it means that you're not going to be a maker. And that's a real identity struggle for a lot of people. Yeah, So when you recruit exclusively in this space is the conversation I have more frequently than the most in the transition from IC into tech lead and tech lead into manager is arguably the hardest leap, I think, that you can make, largely just down to the expectations are often completely wild from the the employer that you're being employed by. And actually they frequently change too often as well. So, so if I'm listening to this show and I'm trying to identify myself, like who would you say is like your ideal customer profile tuning into this that will get the most value from, from, from listening to it? Is it a senior engineer that is an individual contributor? Is it a tech lead? Is it someone who's an engineering manager who is still like hands on coding, maybe labeled as a bit more of like a glorified senior engineer or is it something else?
Pat Kua: I think the right audience for this episode, for instance, would be anybody who is technical, who would like to have a lot more impact. Because there's only so much impact you can have as an individual. And one of the reasons why organizations have, and there's different titles for this, as you mentioned, like a tech lead or a manager, is that there's different ways to have more impact, but that's typically by growing other people, by aligning people and having more impact. And typically that's really hard to do by yourself. That's why we work in teams and have different teams to do more effectively. And that really requires that multiplier. So you could still think like a multiplier, even as a senior individual contributor. You know, as an example, I've seen really good senior engineers who do really great mentoring. I was really beneficial with some of my early sort of senior engineers that I worked with. They were really generous with their knowledge.
Jack Cole: And typically that's really how to do by yourself. That's why we work with teams and have different teams to do more effectively. And that really requires that multiplier. So you can still think like a multiplier even as a senior individual contributor. As an example, I've seen really good senior engineers who do really great mentoring. I was really beneficial with some of my early senior engineers that I worked with. They were really generous with their knowledge. And that's a really great way of being a multiplier. And so anybody who wants to have more impact, I think, in the technical world would...
Pat Kua: And that's a really great way of being a multiplayer. so anybody who wants to have more impact, I think, in the technical world would definitely benefit from this episode.
Jack Cole: Definitely better for people's health. So you're saying if someone is a bit more generalist in their skill that they actually start to fall into more of a multiplier mindset? Interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think a lot of people describe their skills as leadership skills.
Pat Kua: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, because I think a lot of people describe these skills as leadership skills. But if you break them down into various specific skills, they often end up being what I like to describe sort of core skills, foundational skills, because they're useful, often, regardless of what role you're in, right? So, you know, be it about influencing, communicating about mediation, so helping people to resolve a disagreement and conflict.
Jack Cole: But if you bring them down into various specific skills, often end up being what I like to describe as core skills, foundational skills, because they're useful often regardless of what role you're in, right? So, you know, be it about influencing, communicating, about mediation, so helping people to resolve a disagreement conflict.
Pat Kua: You can think of all
Jack Cole: You can think...
Pat Kua: roles benefiting from lot of these skills. It's just that as a leader, you're expected to have these skills.
Jack Cole: Yeah, yeah. I don't want to like maybe define or put people into boxes too, too clearly, but do you find that there is maybe a level of like maturity in terms of like, where you are within your career or you defined by a number of years of experience where you normally see that like, multiplier mindset starts to start to shift?
Pat Kua: Interestingly, I don't find that there's a correlation here. Like if I think about examples of my career, I've found people who've been really good, what you might describe as natural born leaders, right? And a of the times it might be that they can motivate people, they can make sure that everyone has an opportunity to contribute their opinion. And also then based on all these diverse opinions, come up with a better decision for the team. You know, they're people who can coach.
Jack Cole: No? Yeah Also then, based on all these diverse opinions, come up a better decision for the team. You know, there people who can coach,
Pat Kua: not always being the person who needs to be the center of attention and have all the answers. And so I can think of examples where, you know, sometimes that's not necessarily dictated by a number of years experienced. On the flip side, I've also can think of other examples of people who have had
Jack Cole: not always being the person who needs to the center of attention and have all the answers. And so I can think of examples where, you know, sometimes that's not necessarily determined by the number of years of experience. On the flip side, I've also been thinking of other examples of people who... I've had formal leadership management roles and I've seen people really struggle to become a multiplayer. I can actually think of one person who I'd hired as an engineering manager
Pat Kua: formal leadership management roles. And I've seen people really struggle to become a multiplayer, right? I can actually think of one person who I'd hired and, you know, as an engineering manager.
Jack Cole: and they literally couldn't get rid of coding.
Pat Kua: And they literally couldn't get rid of coding. And I was pretty clear in terms of like, okay, that's not what I expect. That's not what the organization needs. And it was something that they couldn't let go. And, you know, they were really experienced person in the industry, but part of their pool was wanting to be a maker because it was fun because it was comfortable. And so, I don't think there is a real correlation. think that's the hard thing about mindset.
Jack Cole: I was pretty clear in terms of like, okay, that's not what I expect, that's not what the organization needs. And was something that they couldn't let go. And, you know, they were really experienced people in the industry, but part of their... was wanting to be a maker because it was fun, because it was comfortable. And so I don't think there is a real correlation. think that's hard thing about mindset is there's a whole bunch of factors that can contribute to that. What I will say is I think it's hard to become a formal technical leader or manager without some experience being a individual contributor.
Pat Kua: is there's a whole bunch of factors that can contribute to that. What I will say is I think it's hard to become a formal technical leader or manager without some experience being a individual contributor. Right. Is that I've seen other people who come in from other disciplines as a leader or manager and then be responsible for managing a team in, let's say software engineers, but they don't really understand the work.
Jack Cole: is that I've seen other people who come in from other disciplines as a leader manager and then be responsible for managing a team in, let's say, software engineers, but they don't really understand the work. And then it's hard for them to really act as a multiplier effectively because they're like, well, I can't participate in conversations. Like, I don't really know how to judge risk. Sometimes the official multiplier is supposed to be the mentor and you've direction advice and they can't.
Pat Kua: And then it's hard for them to really act as a multiplier effectively because they're like, well, I can't participate in conversations. Like I don't really know how to judge risk. sometimes the official multiplier is supposed to be the mentor and give direction advice and they can't. And so having that experience as an individual contributor is I think still essential. How much it's very hard to sort of say I've seen people, you know,
Jack Cole: And so having that experience as an individual contributor is, I think, still essential. How much? It's very hard to say. I've seen people
Pat Kua: moved pretty quickly, but they've had a number of years as an individual contributor first, because then they understand the nature of how building systems and software works.
Jack Cole: move pretty quickly, but they've had number of years as an individual contributor first, because then they understand the nature of how building systems and software works. You've obviously worked in the consulting world more often working with big enterprise customers. You've then worked in the startup space and I'm just like trying to maybe piece together where I maybe start to see patterns myself. And that's maybe the way that my brain works is that often when I speak to those that have like started their career or spent a significant amount of time in that early startup world, they are more generalist. They're exposed to way more. And therefore more than likely that multiplier mindset might be amplified versus someone who's maybe spent a lifetime with their career in bigger tech where maybe the promotional career path is extremely well defined and you are put in a box and so to speak. So have you identified maybe a similar pattern like yourself, Pat?
Pat Kua: I think you're right. Is that if you're working as startup, for instance, you're often expected to be more versatile. and that means you have to do things that maybe you're not supposed to do. And then if you're in a larger company, yeah, it's more rigid in terms of like your team's mission, your role, what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. And so it constrains perhaps, people. If I think about that, and I think one of the lucky things that I worked, I was lucky enough to work as a consultant is to see a
Jack Cole: startup for instance you're often expected to be more versed in and that means you have to do things that maybe you're not supposed to do and then if you're in a larger company it's more rigid in terms of like your team's mission, your role, what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do and so constrains perhaps people. If I think about that and I think one of the lucky things that I worked on
Pat Kua: big breadth of those different companies, like from small, tiny to like mid-sized enterprises. And for me, I think it really comes down to the individual and the mindset side. it's very hard for me to like put a correlation to it really.
Jack Cole: Yeah. Okay. So someone who's listening in today, they might be an enterprise, they might be in a startup, they might already start to identify that actually I'm already in maybe the multiplier mindset already, but let's just work on the basis that they are yet to define whether they are maker or multiplier. And they take your advice on board, like, what can they expect to change for them over a time period? Let's just say 30 days, is there something that they can expect to in a particular time period.
Pat Kua: So if you're transitioning from being a maker role to a multiplier role, there's a couple of things that will change. So firstly, you're going to have a lot of meetings and this annoys a lot of makers, right? So I know this because like when I'm focused creating something, I hate interruptions. I know it's like, what are my triggers? And, you know, meetings are normally one of the things that will interrupt your flow.
Jack Cole: Yeah
Pat Kua: As a maker, often talk about flow. You know, want to be deep in your problem. You want to be creative in how you solve it. And a meeting is going to interrupt that. So that's definitely one of the things that's going to change. There's going to be more meetings. The second thing for a lot of makers, and this is what I see a lot of people struggle with, is you're to have to interact with a whole bunch of other people. And typically these are people from other teams and departments. And so...
Jack Cole: So that's definitely one of the things that's gonna change. There's gonna be more meetings. The second thing for lot of makers, and this is what I see a lot of people struggling with, is you're have to interact with a whole bunch of other people. And typically these are people from other teams and departments. And so...
Pat Kua: Communication
Jack Cole: Communication skills is like an underdeveloped skills for lot of makers, right? A lot of makers are used to say, talk from tech and we talk about tools like Kubernetes and Docker or like frameworks and acronyms. But when you're talking to somebody from say, finance or marketing, they'll just lose it, right? They won't understand what they're saying. And...
Pat Kua: skills is like an underdeveloped skills for a lot of makers, right? A lot of makers are used to say talking tech. And we talk about tools like Kubernetes and Docker or like frameworks and acronyms. But when you're talking to somebody from say finance or marketing, they'll just lose it, right? They won't understand what you're saying. And I see a lot of people struggle with this. So the good example is in the technical world, people often talk about technical debt.
Jack Cole: see a lot of people struggling with this. The good example is in the technical world, people often talk about technical debt. And then they say to somebody like a product person or a marketing person, yeah, we can't do this because of technical debt. But like in a business world, like debt is actually a good thing, right? It's like, so, okay, we have some interest to pay a bit later, but it means we can do more now than later, right? And so this is where like the same phrase creates this communication. And so when you're dealing with a lot of other people...
Pat Kua: And then they say to somebody like a product person or a marketing person, yeah, we can't do this because of technical debt. but like in a business world, like debt is actually a good thing, right? It's like, so, okay, we have some interest to pay a bit later, but it means we can do more now than later. Right. And so this is where like the same phrase creates a miscommunication. And so when you're dealing with a lot of other people, a firstly, a lot of people from other departments and teams are often.
Jack Cole: A, firstly, lot of people from other departments and teams are often
Pat Kua: incentivize or motivated by different things than makers. and then B, the way that you need to communicate with them is going to be really, really different as well. So I think dealing with a wide variety of people, that's probably the second big shift that's going to change there as well. I'll, mean, I can talk about more, but like, I'll talk about maybe one more point. And I think this has to do with dealing with uncertainty.
Jack Cole: incentivized or motivated by different things, makers. And then B, the way that you need to communicate with them is going be really, really different as well. So I think dealing with a wide variety of people, that's probably the second big shift that's going to change there as well. I mean, I could talk about more, but I'll talk about one more point. And I think this has to do with dealing with uncertainty.
Pat Kua: And, you know, I hear this a lot from a lot of makers.
Jack Cole: I hear this a lot from lot of makers.
Pat Kua: You know, we just need somebody to make an assumption, to make a decision. And then I can engineer this perfect like solution, right? Like I need somebody to come up and this is the term that people use requirements. And this word bugs me so much because there is no real requirements often. Like a lot of these are just hypotheses or desires or wants. And it's one of the reasons why a lot of agile
Jack Cole: We just need somebody to make an assumption, to make a decision. And then I can engineer this perfect solution. I need somebody to come up with, and this is the term that we use, requirements. And this won't bug me so much because there is no real requirements often. A lot of these are just hypotheses or desires or wants. And it's one of the reasons why a lot of agile...
Pat Kua: methods talk about user stories.
Jack Cole: methods of user stories rather than requirements because it's more about an outcome that somebody is trying to achieve, not really a hard requirement. But as a maker, you're often used to a whole bunch of certainty. So typically, maybe a product manager and maybe the entry manager have worked to create these set of stories, tickets or features, and they're pretty certain to a certain degree. But suddenly, as a ten-league or entry manager,
Pat Kua: rather than requirements, because it's more about an outcome that somebody is trying to achieve, not really a hard requirement. But as a maker, you're often used to a whole bunch of certainty. So typically, maybe a product manager and maybe the entry manager have worked to create a set of stories or tickets or features, and they're pretty certain to a certain degree. But suddenly, as a TetLeader entry manager, there's a whole bunch of uncertain.
Jack Cole: There's a whole bunch of them.
Pat Kua: Right. You don't really know what the business wants to do in Q3. You don't really know what other departments are going to do. and
Jack Cole: You don't really know what the business wants to do in Q3. You don't really know what other departments are going to do. and you have to deal with a whole bunch of uncertainty. And for a lot of makers, it makes them very, very uncomfortable. And I recognize this myself as well, is that I had to get used to this level of uncertainty as well. Is that you want people to have made decisions, but
Pat Kua: you have to deal with a whole bunch of uncertainty. And for a lot of makers, it makes them very, very uncomfortable. And I recognize this in myself as well, is that I had to get used to this level of uncertainty as well is that you want people to have made decisions, but Again, technical leaders can't really influence a decision if the decision's already been made. And so a lot of multipliers will with that uncertainty.
Jack Cole: again, technical leaders can't really influence a decision if the decisions are being made. So a lot of multipliers will struggle with that uncertainty. So some people will be listening and tuning into this and maybe recognizing some of these things that you're mentioning and understanding. Maybe that's where they are at the moment, but let's just say that like they take the feedback on board and they start to like, what does the work feel like when things start to change and they start to get it right? And almost what does that future state look like? Yeah. So I think one thing is firstly being a little bit
Pat Kua: Yeah. so I think one thing is firstly being a little bit more. patient, because as a maker, you're often taught you want fast feedback loops. You put some code into your source code repository. It gets shipped into production today, hopefully, in an hour or two. You see those results really, really quickly. But I think this is one of the struggles for leaders or multipliers, is those feedback loops are a lot longer. And so I think you have to be a lot more patient.
Jack Cole: Okay Yeah those results really, really quickly. But I think this is one of the struggles for leaders or multipliers is those feedback loops are a lot longer. And so I think you have to be a lot more patient.
Pat Kua: so one thing that I would, for instance, look at is ask yourself, how is your team performing today or this week? And then the next week, how much more effectively are they performing because of the things that you did? Right. If you're acting truly as a multiplier, for example, maybe you've removed a blockage dependency and so work got shipped quicker as a result.
Jack Cole: So one thing that I would, for instance, look at is asking yourself, how is your team performing today or this week? And then the next week, how much more effectively are they performing because of the things that you did? Right? If you're acting truly as a multiplier, for example, maybe you've removed a blockage dependency and so work got shipped quicker as a result. Or maybe...
Pat Kua: or maybe you helped deal with a technical decision with another team. And so they could actually complete some more impactful work in the same amount of time. And so that sort of multiplier mentality again comes back down to sort of thinking about, rather than focus on you and your individual output, what are the outcomes that my team or the group that I'm what are they currently achieving? And therefore, what are they doing more of?
Jack Cole: deal with a technical decision with another team. And so they could actually complete some more impactful work in the same amount of time. And so that sort of multiplier mentality again comes back down to sort of the key about, okay, rather than focus on you and your individual output, what are the outcomes that my team, or the group that I'm leading, what are they currently achieving? And therefore, what are they doing for all of, and having a great impact on some of the
Pat Kua: and having a greater impact as a result.
Jack Cole: I can obviously maybe think about, I, yeah, I run a very small recruitment company. I'm in meetings a lot of the time and I can sometimes just float from week to week thinking, what have I actually done? What have I achieved today? So, um, you know, if I'm an engineer and I've been all of sudden I'm in all of these meetings and it comes to the end of the week. Um, how's the even sought to measure maybe some of the impacts is, is there a coping net mechanism? Is there something that like a system that you've created that helps to maybe measure some of these? multiplier like effects.
Pat Kua: I haven't created a system as such, but I have a couple of questions I like to ask people. As an example, one activity that I sometimes work with early experienced technical leaders and managers is as you go back through your to-do list that you did or your calendar last week, classify those activities into make-up, so things that I'm doing for me and
Jack Cole: Yeah, okay And so as an example, one activity that I sometimes work with early experienced technical leaders managers is as you go back through your to do list that you did or your calendar last week, classify those activities into make up, so things that I'm doing for me.
Pat Kua: multiplier type activities, things that are helping people in my organization or my team that I'm responsible for. There's probably going to be a third category for formal leaders and managers, which is, you know, those meetings that don't really add a lot of value. And so firstly, I try to minimize and reduce that. So ask myself, do I really need these meetings or is there an alternative way to achieve the same outcome with less time?
Jack Cole: multiply and type back to these things that are helping people in my organization or my team that I'm responsible for. There's probably going to be a third category for formal leaders and managers, which is those meetings that don't really have a lot of time. And so firstly, I try to minimize and reduce that. asking myself, do I really need these meetings? is there an alternative way to achieve the same outcome with less time?
Pat Kua: and then looking at the, say ratio of maker to multiplier work is that okay. Right. So for instance, if I am a formal tech leader manager and like, I'm almost a hundred percent producing work for myself, there's probably some things I'm neglecting. if I'm a manager, I should be doing some multiplier work.
Jack Cole: looking at the ratio of making it a multiplier work is that okay, right? So for instance, if I am a formal technical manager and I'm almost 100 % producing work for myself, there's probably some things I'm neglecting. If I'm a manager, I should be doing some multiplier work.
Pat Kua: And this kind of depends on the expectations. Like you alluded to the engineering manager archetypes article that I talked about. in some organizations, you know, manager isn't supposed to be hands-on. That was the like team lead engineering manager archetype. Whereas if you are a tech lead engineering manager archetype, you're kind of half maker, half multiplier. And so some of your week should probably be about still making to a certain degree because you're expected to be doing that as well. And so.
Jack Cole: this kind of depends on the expectations. Like you alluded to the Entry Manager Archetypes article that I talked about. In some organizations, a manager isn't supposed to be hands-on. That was the team lead Entry Manager Archetypes. Whereas if you are a tech lead Entry Manager Archetypes, you kind of half-maker, half-player. And so some of your week should probably be about making it to a certain degree. you're expected to be doing that as well. So
Pat Kua: But that's a simple heuristic, which is to go back through your to do list, go back through your calendar, classify your activities into three categories. Like are they making things? Are they multiplier activities? Or are they effectively organizational waste or bureaucracy? And what can I do to reduce that?
Jack Cole: that's a simple heuristic, is to go back through your to-do list, go back through your calendar, classify your activities into three categories. Like, are they making things? Are they multiplier activities? Or are they effectively organisational waste of bureaucracy? And what can I do to reduce that? I feel like we shifted the conversation a little bit left because I think that's number five on your digital asset that you've created, I'm not incorrect.
Pat Kua: Yeah.
Jack Cole: I'm sure we'll obviously go into maybe some other examples, but if we were like maybe getting it like really practical and maybe in the context of maybe someone who is a senior engineer and maybe when something breaks, for example, in production, what does like a maker's mindset do and like how do they respond?
Pat Kua: So a maker would be like, let me find the problem. Let me fix it. I fixed it. Celebrate.
Jack Cole: and celebrate. pistols in the air. And like, I guess maybe as a contrast then, so like, would a like multipliers like mindset, how was like, when something breaks, like, how would they, like, what would their mindset be? And like, how, would that be evident? So, for multiplayer, then you still want to fix it, but then what you might be doing is what can I do to either make sure that other people can fix it? So I'm reducing the dependency of me, maybe I'm the bottleneck of I'm the only person that...
Pat Kua: Yeah? So for multiplayer, then you still want to fix it. But then what you might be doing is, what can I do to either make sure that other people can fix it? So I'm reducing dependency on me. Maybe I'm the bottleneck of I'm the only person that can solve
Jack Cole: and maybe I can take somebody with me and we can work together on fixing this problem so that in the future other people are
Pat Kua: this problem. And so maybe I can take somebody with me, and we can work together on fixing this problem so that in the future, other people are possible.
Jack Cole: possible, I can solve this problem as well and then learn a little bit more about how to diagnose and support the system. Another multiplayer mindset behaviour you can think about is, okay, we had this problem.
Pat Kua: I can solve this problem as well. And they've learned a little bit more about how to diagnose and support the system. Another multiplier mindset behavior you can think about is, okay, we had this problem. Why did we have this problem? And what can we do to prevent this class of problem happening again and again? And so in software, we often formalize this as that you have incident management, which is actually we need to fix it quick, quick fix, whatever.
Jack Cole: Why did we have this problem? And what can we do to prevent this class problem happening again and again? so in software, we often formalize this as that you have incident management, which is actually we need to fix it quick, quick fix, whatever.
Pat Kua: But then we should be doing, if we have healthy organizations, a postmortem. So the root cause analysis to try to understand what contributed to this and to make sure that we have some preventative actions to reduce the likelihood of these things from happening again in the future. And that mindset
Jack Cole: But then we should be doing, if we have healthy organizations, a post-mortem. So the root cause analysis to try to understand what we contribute in this and to make sure that we have some preventative actions to reduce the likelihood of these things from happening again in the future. And that's...
Pat Kua: is the multiplier mindset.
Jack Cole: Do you feel like the organization structure and design of some businesses kind of like really like protect companies or protect individuals from like getting exposed to that type of stuff because you know the I guess the thing over the last few years is that like software engineers, they now own quality, they own the incident management. So they feel the pain of all of their decisions within the team. that's been a shift I've seen over the last few years, but there's still a lot of organizations that have a separate incident management team, have a separate QA team, they have a separate development team. to those that maybe have those separate incident management teams full file of not getting exposure to some of these things, would you say?
Pat Kua: Yeah, absolutely. mean, your, your observations are correct in that, like the industry has trended towards sort of adding more responsibility to the same sort of person. But a different way of how I like to think about that is what we've done as an industry is really decrease feedback loops a lot more. Right. So, I mean, when I started work, you know, with waterfall type stuff is used to have complete different departments and teams with complete handoffs. And one of the things that the agile.
Jack Cole: Yeah. So, I mean, when I started work, know, waterfall type stuff is used to have complete different departments and teams, complete handoffs. And one of the things that the agile...
Pat Kua: movement brought in was kind of this lean thinking of how do we reduce these feedback loops so that people can make better decisions with better context and information. And so you're absolutely right is that organizations sometimes have processes that prevent people from learning. I mean, you probably work a lot with perhaps hiring DevOps or SRE type people.
Jack Cole: was kind of this lean thinking of how do we reduce these feedback loops so that people can make better decisions with better context and information. And so you're absolutely right, that organizations sometimes have processes that prevent people from learning. I mean, you probably work a lot with perhaps hiring DevOps or SRE type people.
Pat Kua: And that buzzword is another good example of problems sometimes, because, you know, for me, DevOps is this cultural thing that was really about reducing the sort of feedback loop between we're building something to how does this work in production and some organizations, they might still have an SRE or a DevOps team. And it's like a third handoff, right? You still have your developers, you have your ops, and then suddenly you have this SRE and DevOps team.
Jack Cole: Hard word is another good example of problems sometimes because for me DevOps is this cultural thing that was really about reducing the... feedback loop between we're building something to how does this work in production. And some organizations, they might still have an SRE or a DevOps team. And it's like a third handoff, right? You still have your developers, you have your ops, and then suddenly you have this SRE and DevOps team.
Pat Kua: And, know, it's the question about are they slowing the feedback loop or are they helping to increase the transparency and information? And so
Jack Cole: And it's the question about are they slowing the feedback loop or are they helping to increase transparency and information?
Pat Kua: that structure doesn't guarantee it, but it is something that I tend to look for to see if there's any smells around there because it can prevent more of that feedback loop and therefore prevent this like learning and multiply mindset.
Jack Cole: And so that structure doesn't guarantee it, but it is something that I tend to look for to see if there's any spells around there because it can prevent more of that feedback loop and therefore prevent this learning and multiply mindset. So if I was to maybe walk into like a, like a new team and there is a, like a multiplier leader in the business, like what, what potentially feels different. Um, and what maybe like changes internally for the leader is there more confidence, is there less pressure, is there more clarity? Like, could you like some, some of those things may be intangible to maybe acknowledge, but like, yeah, what, would, what would you say that feels different if I was to walk into that type of team? Because if I may be listening to it, I might then start to identify it. that actually my leader is one of these multiplier types. And actually, if I buy into their vision, their strategy, then actually is going to help me with my overall career growth and career journey. And actually, it might allow me to be the person I want to be in the next three to five years. But equally, if they're identifying their leader as maybe not one of those individuals, they might start to think, actually, I might need to look at maybe my other career prospects outside of the business I'm already working with.
Pat Kua: Mm. You
Jack Cole: of this episode all of a sudden have like an influx of about 100 CVs landed on my desk but yeah what does what does that look like and feel like?
Pat Kua: You So let me talk about two different examples. So one which I think has that multiplayer mindset. And one thing that you notice about a good multiplayer when they come into a new team is they don't try to change everything at once. One of the first things any good multiplayer will do is to listen to people. And I think part of this is trying to understand, if I'm that leader or manager, my goal is to help my team.
Jack Cole: Yeah, love that.
Pat Kua: And to help my team, need to understand what are the struggles or challenges they have. And for me to understand that, I need to talk to them. need to hear and listen to some of the things that they're struggling with. And each team is going to be different. There's the famous Fred Brooks paper, No Silver Bullet, right? Is that there's many different solutions or problems, but which problems that your team are currently facing, you have to talk to them and work out what are the things that they're struggling with.
Jack Cole: Yeah There's many different solutions to problems, but which problems that your team are currently facing, you have to talk to them and work out what are the things that they're struggling with. So as an example,
Pat Kua: Right? So as an example, one team could be struggling with a couple of people who don't get along and every technical discussion blows up and there's no clear path forward because they can't agree. Other teams don't have that problem. Instead, their problems might lie a little bit more outside of the organization in that maybe they're trying to get something done from another team, but they don't have any good relationships to influence their product roadmap.
Jack Cole: One team could be struggling with a couple of people who don't get along and every technical discussion blows up and there's no clear path forward because they can't agree. Other teams don't have that problem. Instead, their problems might apply a little bit more outside of their organization in that maybe they're trying to get something done from another team, but they don't have any good relationships to influence their product roadmap. And so they never get their dependency in the right time.
Pat Kua: And so they never get their dependency in the right time. Their plans get thrown out as a result and they under deliver according to the, what their plans are. So a good multiplier will be talking to each person, trying to listen carefully to really understand what are opportunities for them to be a multiplayer and to listen to them. So if you're trying to work out if your new leader or manager is a good person, I would ask myself.
Jack Cole: their plans get thrown out as a result and they deliver according to what their plans are. So the good multiplier will be talking to each person, trying to listen carefully to really understand what are opportunities for them to be a multiplier and to listen to them. So if you're trying to work out if your new leader or venture is a good person, I would ask myself,
Pat Kua: Are they talking to me? Are they listening to me? And how is
Jack Cole: are they talking to me? Are they listening to me?
Pat Kua: that going? The counter example I want to give you is sometimes, and it's this pattern that I see quite a lot, somebody who comes from big tech firm, and you've probably seen a lot of these. So anyone from the fangs, they go into a small startup and they start to go, here's how we did it at Amazon. Here's how we did it at Google. Right? We needed to use this process. We need to use this practice. What you're doing is.
Jack Cole: How was that going? The counter example I want to give you is sometimes, and this is a that I see quite a lot, somebody who comes from a big tech firm, and you've probably seen one of these. if anyone from the FAANGs, they go into a small startup, and they start to go, here's how we do do how much, here's how we do do do, right? We need to use this process, we need to use this practice. What you're doing is
Pat Kua: Terrible, right? It's completely wrong.
Jack Cole: terrible, right? It's completely wrong.
Pat Kua: They're not really contextualizing it in what is useful. And I see this as a coach to CTOs, you know, when people have hired somebody and they hope for the best based on just the brand, but often it's incorrect because they're not really thinking like a multiplier. They're thinking about copy and paste structures, which don't work in a new environment because they're not really listening to what is necessary in their current environment to help multiply them. So they're the two examples that I would be thinking of.
Jack Cole: So there are two examples that I would be... Yeah, it's an interesting one, Pat, because I'm having a lot of conversations with some companies at the moment who have gone to the AWS Summit and AWS have saying this is how we're to be structuring our teams. And as you've got a product leader that is leading the strategy, you've got then a business analyst, they're saying you need two senior engineers, more likely a multiplier senior engineer. two data engineers, two data scientists, and then a principal engineer that looks after the DevOps orchestration. And then there's a team of 15 to 20 agentic AIs, but you know, Amazon is saying this is what we're doing. Now you guys should go and go and do exactly the same, but actually like you come in and start making like almost a copy and paste of what someone else is doing. I guess there's maybe big risks. risk that like, for anyone that is maybe signed to, and I think that there'll be a lot of this may be happening in the industry, should people just buy into that straight away? Or it should be like, what should people think and feel in those types of scenarios when those types of organisational changes are happening, particularly if they are that multiplier mindset themselves?
Pat Kua: Absolutely. I think one of the hardest things in our industry is, um, you know, it's a very human nature is that we follow trends, follow what's popular and the harder thing. And this is I think true for a good maker as well as a multiplier is sort of ask ourselves, what's the core problem we're trying to solve. This is something that I see from really, really good makers, right? Before they come up with a brilliant solution. They spend a lot of time trying to do sort of diagnosis or to articulate.
Jack Cole: Yeah. This is something that I see from really, really good makers right before they come up with a brilliant solution. They spend a lot of time trying to do sort of diagnosis, what to articulate,
Pat Kua: What's the problem? So for a feature, it's like, what is the user really trying to achieve? What's the job to be done? What's the qualities that we need to achieve?
Jack Cole: what's the problem. So for a feature, it's like, what is the user really trying to achieve? What's the job to be done? What's the qualities that we need to achieve?
Pat Kua: And in this sort of example, it's kind of like, well, okay, if we're to do something, why? What's the value that's going to bring us? Well, do we have that challenge? Right. And again, there's many different solutions to solve that. And so I think we should be open to hearing how other companies do things because it gives us ideas.
Jack Cole: this sort of example, it's kind of like, well, okay, do something. Why? What's the value that's gonna bring us all? Do we have that challenge? And again, there's many different solutions to solve that. And so I think we should be open to hearing how other companies do things because it gives us ideas.
Pat Kua: But we first have to do that homework. And that's the hard part of sort of working out what's our current priorities in our environment here that we care about.
Jack Cole: But we first have to do that homework. That's the hard part of sort of working out what's our current priorities in our environment here that we care about.
Pat Kua: And nobody can tell you that, right? That's the hard part. This is not an external thing. This is something that you have to make decisions on, dealing with uncertainty, because there's lots of different things. But also, again, listening to people about what's the current challenges in your current environment.
Jack Cole: And nobody can tell you that, right? That's the hard part. This is not an external thing. This is something that you have to make decisions on, dealing with uncertainty, because that's not taking things. But also, again, listening to people about what's the current challenges in your current environment. Okay. And like there's, there's always a commercial and business impact to any level of change. Whether it's maker or multiplier, or maybe the organizational structural change, but in the maker multiplier scenario, like what sort of, what sort of like commercial or business impacts can we expect to see from a maybe like from like from a monetization or from like a revenue point of view?
Pat Kua: it's a good question because I think the interesting thing about being a multiplayer, it's a little bit like AI. the recent Dora report talks about AI being an amplifier and leadership management roles are a multiplier. So they're also an amplifier, but it can go in both directions, right? If you have a bad multiplier, then you'll end up with worse results. And this is often.
Jack Cole: It's good question because I think the interesting thing about being a multiplayer, it's a little bit like AI. The recent Dora report talks about AI being amplified. And leadership electric roles are multiplying, so they're also an amplifier. This is often
Pat Kua: one of the challenges when a lot of organizations throw makers into multiplier roles, assuming they'll be good multipliers. And then they find out actually their team delivers half of what the
Jack Cole: one of the challenges when lot of organizations throw makers into multiplier roles, assuming they'll be good multipliers, and then they find out actually their team delivers half of what the...
Pat Kua: outputs that they're planning do. They don't meet their customer, commitments. If you're in a B2B business, maybe they don't ship the right features that mean that you can't close certain deals. and so.
Jack Cole: that they're planning to, they don't meet their customer commitments. If you're in a B2B business, maybe they don't ship the right features that mean that you can't close certain deals. And so
Pat Kua: If you have a appropriate multiplier, what that typically means is better quality, better predictability, and
Jack Cole: if you have an appropriate multiplayer, what that typically means is better quality, better predictability.
Pat Kua: often your team can produce more impactful outcomes. Of course, how to measure that would be depending on the company and aspects. But one of the reasons why often a lot of organizations do invest in training leaders and managers is again, to solve these problems, to make sure that they're a good multiplier.
Jack Cole: often your team can produce more impactful outcomes. Of course, how to measure that would be depending on the company and aspects, but one of the reasons why often a lot of organizations do invest in training leaders and managers is again to solve these problems to make sure that they're a good multiplier
Pat Kua: And that will translate typically into better quality, predictability, and more impactful outcomes.
Jack Cole: and that will translate typically into better quality and predictability and more impactful outcomes. I think it would maybe bring it back to your own career journey, Pat. Like, did you find that yourself sticking within a maker mode for too long and it was a case that you had to intentionally get out of it or did it was a natural transition from maker into, into multiplier for you? Do you the mindset or the role? Well, the mindset.
Pat Kua: do you mean the mindset or the role? I don't think I really thought about the mindset thing until I started teaching other people how to do this. I mean, I think I instinctively was like, okay, my goal here is to help my team. But I think one of the challenges as a maker is that sometimes you sort of do things that you think are helping your team, but it's not really being a multiplayer. So let me give you a concrete example. you know, I think if I go back to one of my earlier teams.
Jack Cole: I think I instinctively was like, okay, my goal here is to help my team. But I think one of the challenges as a baker is that sometimes you sort of do things that you think are helping your team, but it's not really being a multiplayer. So let me give you a concrete example. I think if I go back to one of my earlier teams.
Pat Kua: I would often take on maybe some complex work because I'm like, okay, I've solved this a billion times before I know how to do this and I'll save my team time. So I think I'm kind of being a multiplier, but I'm like having fun making and solving a problem that I've solved a million times before. only years later did I realize I'm actually limiting the growth of my team because I'm doing this thing, but my team has not grown as a result. And so the next time that we ended up with.
Jack Cole: I would often take on maybe some complex work because I'm like, okay, I've solved this a billion times before, I know how to do this, and I'll save my team time. So I think I'm kind of being a multiplier, but I'm like having fun making and solving a problem that I've solved a billion times before.
Pat Kua: a similar business problem. I'm like, okay, I have to go and implement this thing again. I'll save my team time. And I just end up in sort of groundhog day repetitive, right? And so a good leader is thinking about systems that grow their team over time. And so it's hard for me to sort of think about what I switched over. But I feel it was like when I started to teach other people how to be more effective leaders. Yeah.
Jack Cole: Yeah I'll save my team time. And I just end up in sort of groundhog day, very repetitive, right? And so a good leader is looking about, sort of thinking about systems that grow their team over time. And so it's hard for me to sort of... think about what I switched over. But I feel it was like when I started to teach other people how to be more effective leaders. Yeah. I think maybe I've like can resonate a little bit for my own growth journey of like being a founder is almost like to be able to like scale others or you need to be able to almost strip things back and then like look at your like your week, your structure, reduce what is within your control and what isn't within your control and then be able to then scale yourself. So I can, yeah, I can definitely resonate with that. Would you be comfortable like sharing obviously through your own coaching services? Would you be comfortable sharing like a good successful like coaching journey where you've helped someone go from that maker into multiplier mindset and like what essentially changed for them or what behaviors like shifted. Yeah. Would you be comfortable in sharing maybe an example?
Pat Kua: Sure. mean, a recent example, I can't talk about who, but I think one of the challenges that they were facing in our coaching sessions was they had a lot of time or sorry, they didn't have a lot of time because they were busy getting involved in everything. Right. They were driving all activities. And, you know, one of the first things I typically do with a lot of new clients that I work with is I ask them to sort of walk me through how they.
Jack Cole: Yeah, of course. Sorry, they didn't have a lot of time because they were busy getting involved in everything. They were driving all activities. And, you know, one of the first things I typically do with a lot of new clients that I work with is I ask them to sort of walk me through how they
Pat Kua: run themselves. So how do they think about their time? How do they prioritize their work?
Jack Cole: run themselves. So how do they think about their time? How do they prioritize their work?
Pat Kua: And I found with this particular person, this was a person who wanted to sort of make everyone happy. And so this was the natural say yes to everything, sign up for everything, try to be as helpful as possible. And as a result, their calendar was more than maxed out, you know, like
Jack Cole: this particular person, this was a person who wanted to make everyone happy. So this was the natural, yes to everything, sign up for everything, try to be as helpful as possible. And as a result, their calendar was more than maxed out.
Pat Kua: Probably like yourself, you probably have like multiple bookings of the same slot sometimes. And their calendar was a mess. If I looked at their to-do list and I asked them, okay, what are some of the things you want to do? They never got prioritized
Jack Cole: Probably like yourself, you probably had multiple bookings of the same slots on two meetings. And their calendar was the best. If I looked at their to-do list and I asked them, okay, what are some of the things you want to do? They never got part of it.
Pat Kua: because they were always saying yes to everyone else. Right. And I think this is one of the hard things about being a multiplier is again, recognizing you have constraints in time and attention and you have to be really deliberate about prioritizing that. And so.
Jack Cole: So
Pat Kua: Through the coaching journey, was sort of asking them, okay, so why aren't you getting to the things that you want to do yourself? What's stopping you from doing that? And they started to realize this habit of saying yes to everything meant that they didn't have time to take care of the things they should be taking care of for themselves, which they kind of just absorbed into their evenings and weekends, which was one of the core problems that they had talked about, right? Is that they don't want to be spending their time, their partner was complaining about them always working and not actually like...
Jack Cole: through the coaching journey, sort of asking them, okay, so why aren't you getting to the things that you want to do yourself? What's stopping you from doing that? They started to realize this habit of saying yes to everything meant that they didn't have time to take care of the things they should be taking care of themselves. Which they kind of just absorbed into their evenings and weekends, which is one of the core problems that they had talking about. They don't want to be spending their time, their partners complaining about them always working. like
Pat Kua: doing the things that they should be doing in a relationship because they kind of kept deprioritizing themselves. And so I think through this journey, part of this was the recognition for themselves to say, okay, well, this is in the scope of something I can control, but I'm going to have to learn to behave differently. And so we worked with them on coming up with a percentage of their week that they should spend working on their own activities. and then.
Jack Cole: doing the things that they should be doing in a relationship because they kind of kept de-paratizing themselves. And so I think through this journey, part of this was the recognition for themselves to say, okay, well, this isn't the scope of something I control, but I'm going to have to learn to behave differently. And so we worked with them on coming up with a percentage of their week that they should spend working on their own activities.
Pat Kua: you know, got them to review how they were progressing to that. And when they weren't, what was causing them to not spend time on the things that they wanted to do and what behaviors could they, could they have? So as an example, one thing might be asking somebody, okay, you sent this meeting invite here instead of this time, can we do it in the next free time, which is next Tuesday? Right. So not saying no, but more of a no, not yet kind of thing.
Jack Cole: got them to review how they were progressing to that, and when they weren't, what was causing them to not spend time on the things that they wanted to do, and what behaviors could they have. So as an example, one thing might be asking somebody, okay, you sent this meeting invite here, instead of this time, can we do it the next free time, which is next Tuesday, right? So not saying no, but more of a no, not yet kind of thing.
Pat Kua: And through that process, they recognized, okay, they need to be more active at managing their calendar, protecting time for thinking time, and not just simply doing, and to actually start thinking about things that would help them be more effective to start acting like a multiplier. And what I'm really happy about this is, you know, sometimes my coaching engagements don't last for a long time because of budget reasons, not cheap.
Jack Cole: through that process, they recognize that they need to be more active in managing their calendar, protecting time for thinking and time. that would help them be more effective to start acting like a multiplayer. And what I'm really happy about this is, you know, sometimes my coaching agents don't last for a long time because of budget reasons, not cheap. And, you know, I got some feedback from them quite recently, in the year on, and...
Pat Kua: And, you know, I got some feedback from them quite recently, a year on, and they're still using that to keep their calendar sort of clear, working on their, you know, top most priorities as well. And they feel they can be a lot more effective as a multiplayer because they're actually properly prioritizing some of the things that they need to.
Jack Cole: still using that to keep the calendars clear, working on their top-most priorities as well. And I feel like it'd be a lot more effective as a multiplier because they're properly prioritizing some of things that they need. Yeah, I love that scenario. I guess, like, is there other things like... I'm I feel victim to myself of like over over promising and saying yes to everything. I've got two children, I run a business, we're doing events, we're doing podcasts, and all of a sudden is like, flipping neck, we only got X amount of like, hours in the week. And then you then have to start cutting things down. So saying yes to everything is definitely something I can resonate with. Is there things like ego, insecurities, other things that maybe start to get in the way? Similar sort of traits to that that you see?
Pat Kua: It's natural. I can imagine. Yes. I mean, I let people know that I'm a bit more, you have lots of different coaches out there. And I'm not a qualified psychotherapist or psychologist. And so I don't pretend that I can say here's what I think is happening in the background. I can play back some of my observations, but that's not really the type of coaching that I sort of provide to people.
Jack Cole: I I love people who know that. Yeah. No. And so I don't pretend that I can say, here's what I think is happening in the background. I can play back some of my observations, but that's not really the type of encryption that I see.
Pat Kua: what I have noticed though is, for instance, safety is one of the things that sometimes determines whether somebody is going to be coachable or not. so as an example, I've had some clients where the HR or people team have said, we want this person to have coaching. And I can normally say they haven't worked out to be great because they don't really recognize they need the coaching and they're not open to it.
Jack Cole: What I have noticed though is, for instance, safety is one of the things that sometimes determines whether somebody is going to be coachable or not. So as an example, I've had some clients where the HR or people team have said, we want this person to have coaching. And I can normally say they haven't worked out to be great. they don't really recognize that you need the coaching and they're not open to it. And so for instance, it's very hard for them to talk about current situations because even though as an external person, there's probably more safety than talking to their manager who's going to do their performance reviews and assess if they're able or not. Often there's that sort of thing in the back of their head which is like, am I being assessed and are they going to get rid of me as a result? So I think definitely it's a human thing where safety
Pat Kua: And so for instance, it's very hard for them to talk about current situations because even though as an external person, there's probably more safety than talking to their manager who's going to do their performance reviews and assess if they're good or not. Often there's that sort of thing in the back of their head, which is like, am I being assessed and are they going to get rid of me as a result? Right. So I think definitely it's a human thing where safety, I definitely recognize plays a role. Another role that typically, or another situation that typically affects it is what you talked about is, you know, when somebody has a lot of stuff going on in their life, it's natural, for instance, to be really tired. And then you come into work, you're probably not the sharpest. You're a little bit like moody.
Jack Cole: Yeah, that's right.
Pat Kua: And it comes through, right? It comes through in what you say, it comes through in like maybe not right decisions or like priorities. You say yes again to all the things.
Jack Cole: Yeah
Pat Kua: and that is a natural human thing. And, know, I, work with leaders and that's one of the functions that I can talk about. say, Hey, you know, like. Seem a bit different this week than last week, right? Like what's going on.
Jack Cole: I work with leaders and that's one of functions that I can talk about. say, hey, you seem a bit different this week than last week. What's going on? Okay. Dokey. I think that's why I'm really, I've maybe labored the point or over labored the point in this podcast is just almost try and get that identity layer because if they hate our department or a manager is maybe encourage someone to go down a particular path and they're only hearing it from one voice, but actually maybe they're tuning into this and then they're hearing it from maybe another voice and they might start to maybe think slightly differently around actually maybe I need to start listening and maybe I might need to be a little bit more intentful with how I start to change my time to make sure that I'm actually starting to maybe shift into that multiplier mindset and actually get the promotion that I want to get to and achieve all of the aspirations that I have within my career over the next 12 months. So, but like, do you, why do you think that this is maybe not part of formal? like one-to-ones or promotional conversations or, or is it? Cause I've obviously, I've never been an engineer. I've never wrote a code in my life. So I'm an absolute fraud in that respect, but I'm working on the assumption that they're not part of like one-to-ones and promotional criteria. But, but why is that?
Pat Kua: what I would say is firstly, it depends on your manager because some people don't get great managers. Again, it might be a first time manager and they're really struggling. as an example, a lot of first time managers will use one-to-ones as status updates, right? Like tell me how your project's going. What are you working on? and that's not really what a good one-to-one is because as a manager, there should be tools like
Jack Cole: and some people don't get great managers. Again. status updates, right? Tell me how your project's going, what are you working on, and that's not really what a one-to-one is because as a manager there should be tools like
Pat Kua: Jira or whatever tracking tools that you have for knowing what people are working on. It's not just about that. So some people get it because, or they don't get it in their one-to-ones because they have a perhaps inexperienced manager or an ineffective manager.
Jack Cole: JIRA or whatever tracking tools that you have for knowing what people are working on. It's not just about that. So some people get it because, well they don't get it in their one-to-ones because they have a perhaps inexperienced manager or an ineffective manager.
Pat Kua: Another thing that affects that is dynamics, right? Because sometimes as a say maker or an individual contributor, you're thinking, well, if I tell my manager, I'm struggling with this thing, they might think I'm underperforming.
Jack Cole: that is dynamic, right? Because sometimes as a, say, maker or an individual contributor, you're thinking, if I tell my manager I'm struggling with this thing, they might think I'm underperforming.
Pat Kua: And, know, there's a safety element there as well because of the power dynamic. And so that's one, probably two reasons why people don't get the information and feedback during one-to-ones. If I was to give anyone some concrete advice, I think one
Jack Cole: And, you know, there's a safety element there as well because of the power dynamic. So that's one, probably two reasons why people don't get the information and feedback during one-to-ones. If I was to give anyone some concrete advice, I think...
Pat Kua: important thing, regardless of your role, is to find people in your organization who you can build up trust with, and you can be open to that they can give you very direct feedback.
Jack Cole: One important thing regardless of your role is to find people in your organization who you can build up trust with and you can be open to that they can give you very direct feedback about what you thought shouldn't just come from your manager. So as an example, could be a peer, somebody on your team that you work with, it could be another person from another team who's like spotting how you're
Pat Kua: about your performance. It shouldn't just come from your manager. Right. So as an example, could be a peer, somebody on your team that you're working with. could be another person from another team who's like spotting how you're writing things inappropriately on Slack or your messaging app and saying, Hey, why are you behaving like this? Like, why are you setting this out? Right. But like places, because I think as a person, it's very, I know this myself is that it's hard to
Jack Cole: Okay Why are behaving like this? Why are you setting this up? But like, places, because I think as a person, it's very, I know this myself, it's hard to
Pat Kua: reflect on your own actions when you, particularly if you're like not feeling safe or you're, you're tired. you need that external feedback that you
Jack Cole: reflect on your own actions, you're afraid of not feeling safe, or you're tired, and you need that external feedback.
Pat Kua: mentioned and it's not always going to come from your manager. And so that's why I think it's really important that whoever you are in whatever role you have, you think about sort of your support network or people who you can build up trust with and feel open to that they can, you know, invite them to tell you, to give you feedback.
Jack Cole: So that's why I think it's really important that whoever you are, whatever role you have, you think about sort of support network or people you trust with, feel open to, that they can invite them to tell you, to give you feedback about how you perform because it's very hard to spot the sometimes to yourself. Okay, okay. Should we get into your digital asset because I guess like that's where maybe people can like download it.
Pat Kua: about how you're performing because it's very hard to spot that sometimes for yourself.
Jack Cole: use this on a practical level where they like starts to make maybe a bit more sense to them. So, you've got five key questions. Do you want to go through each question and like how you maybe expect someone to maybe answer it, from maybe a multiplier, but also then, like a maker's mindset.
Pat Kua: Sure, yeah, we can go through that.
Jack Cole: Cool, do you wanna go through the first question?
Pat Kua: Sure. So the first question that I put on the asset here was think back to last week and think about how did you add value to your team? And so if you're a maker, you're probably like, OK, I shipped a lot of tickets, closed a lot of PRs or reviewed a lot of PRs for my team, came up with a nice, simple technical solution to this customer problem.
Jack Cole: So the first question I've got on the ad set here was, think back to last week. Okay. Yeah.
Pat Kua: maybe fixed for incidents that were going on if we have quality problems. That's very maker, like doing. If I was a multiplier, some of this might be, for instance, you know, I unblock somebody's work, right? So I noticed that somebody wasn't asking for help. They, you the ticket was on the board for most of the week and every standup was like, still working on it all good.
Jack Cole: Yep. Yep. If I was a multiplier, some of this might be, instance, I blocked somebody's work. So I noticed that somebody wasn't asking for help. The ticket was on the board for most of the week and every stand-up was still working at it all good.
Pat Kua: And I approached them and said, hey, what's going on? And how can I help you? And they were maybe waiting for a dependency that we could resolve with another team. Maybe some of that multiplying work was clearing the path.
Jack Cole: And I approached them and said, hey, what's going on and how can I help you? And they were maybe waiting for a dependency that we could solve. Maybe some of that multiplying work was clearing the path.
Pat Kua: So looking upstream and thinking about the next couple of weeks and to sort of work with other parts of the business to make decisions and come up with clear assumptions to help your team then scope their work a lot clearer.
Jack Cole: So looking upstream and thinking about the next couple of weeks and to sort of work with other parts of the business to make decisions and come up with clear assumptions to help your team then scope their work lot clearer so that they can actually get things done.
Pat Kua: and so that they could actually get some things done. use the question. So there's no number of them. think use the questions if they bring you value. So we don't have to go through all of them because I think, I mean, the audience can download the asset and go through this as well.
Jack Cole: use the question. So there's no, I think can use the questions if they bring good value. you can download the SN-PROFERENCE as well.
Pat Kua: Then I am going to perhaps take number three, which is the middle question here, which is if you're away for two weeks from your team, what would slow down or break?
Jack Cole: which is if you're away for two weeks from your team, what would slow down and what break you? Okay, yeah, I love that question. I'm now thinking, if I my own business, if I was to take two weeks away, what would actually happen? carry on, mate. So if it was a maker's mindset, what would maybe the expectation be there? So if it was a maker mindset,
Pat Kua: So if it was a maker mindset, one thing would probably be, know, the team is waiting for me to get back. So there's certain things that got started when I left and things have not progressed in the meantime, because people are waiting for me to approve things or waiting for me to do something for the team. Right.
Jack Cole: Yeah. It sounds like you're, it sounds like you're, like the conversations I'm all too used to, Pat is that, we got to wait two weeks until the manager's back to make a decision on an offer, that we've been waiting on. welcome to my world.
Pat Kua: Yeah. Yep. Indeed, indeed. And if you're a multiplier, then one thing in that example would be thinking about, if there is something that if I step away that can't be done, who could I delegate that to in the meantime? So your example of who could approve the hire in the meantime. Maybe it's like two senior engineers from my team, and I sit down with them before I go away for two weeks and make sure that they're clear as part of that. And so thinking about processes or structures that allow the tasks that you do as a leader to be repeatable. And so you always have a plan when you're not there.
Jack Cole: Okey dokey class. And if there was one thing that someone was to remember from this episode, like what would be the one thing that you would want to maybe get them to at least like remember from from actually listening and even if they didn't go and then actually download the asset, which hopefully they will.
Pat Kua: If there was anything I'd like people to remember is that if you are a formal leader manager or you would like to be, what does your multiplier mindset look like? What are you doing to multiply the effectiveness of your team, the organization and people around you?
Jack Cole: Okay, class. And if someone was to want to take a step further into their journey, and they've done that, and they wanted to connect with you, Pat, like, where can they find you? How can they connect with you? I presume LinkedIn, is there any other like ways that they could connect with you?
Pat Kua: Yeah, definitely reach out to me on LinkedIn. You're also welcome to shoot me an email at patquarr.com. I am officially on the Twitter X thing, but I've stopped using that actively. LinkedIn or email is probably the best platform.
Jack Cole: Perfect. Well, look, guys, if you've enjoyed today's show, then please like, comment, share, download the digital asset. used it on a practical level and it's benefited you, then please share that with your peers. The whole philosophy for us here at Build Your Edge is that if you are just a passenger and you're listening to an episode, statistically, one week later, you've lost 90 % of that knowledge. So if you're just listening to it one week from now, you're more than likely to have got everything you've just listening to, potentially wasting an hour of your time. Whereas if you download something, you use it on a practical level, and then you share it with someone else, then the knowledge retention increases between 70 to 90%, which is the whole reason why Build Your Edge exists is the area that we wanted to play in that makes us maybe a little bit different from some of the other podcasts that exist out there, the whole 7 million in the UK that you can tune into. But if you've made it this far and you are at the end, then thank you for tuning in and a big thank you to Pat for coming on the show and for giving up your time.
Pat Kua: Thank you very much Jack, it's been a pleasure.