Using Relationship To Become Our Best Self (Ep. 11)

Bryce Giron Mathern: Welcome to the Man For Real podcast. We are here to celebrate men, as well as talk about how all men can do better and lead our world to a healthier place. Get ready to get real. Hey everyone. Thanks for listening today. My guest today is Jeff Borkowski, the author of Better Man, Better Marriage. He's going to talk about how he used his divorce as a way to help himself grow and improve as a man. Jeff Borkowski, welcome to the podcast. Bryce, great to be here, man. Yeah. It's really good to have you here. I really appreciate you. You're the first person I've reached out to an author that I really appreciated. And you are so, so kind to get back to me so quickly and make the effort. So thanks for being here. Absolutely. So I'd like to just start getting a sense of, know, kind of your journey as a man. You know, you're kind of come to this place of being a, you know, a men's coach and you've written books about relationships and marriage and that sort of thing. And I just like to get a sense of like, you know, what happened in your life that kind of led you to this place. Man, it wasn't always this way, Bryce. You know, I grew up riddled with kind of debilitating insecurity. am the oldest of five born to a nurse and a Navy officer and Navy pilot and first born son. I think he wanted to shape. in his own image. My dad held physical fitness records in the Navy for years at a time. His firstborn son just wasn't that alpha aggressive guy and he just did it all wrong. His attempts to toughen me up, to condense a lot of years of my childhood, his attempts to toughen me up actually had the opposite impact. They crushed me, crushed my spirit. So I just grew up with this Am I enough or actually way beyond that actually, it wasn't a question. It was a certainty that I suck. Like I'll never measure up. I'll never be strong. I'll never be a real man. And sadly, you know, I brought that into my adulthood and I brought that into my marriage and let's see, guide me a little bit. I don't know how much to share, not to share. Yeah. Whatever feels comfortable. think, you know, you're speaking to, I think what a lot of men feel, which is that sense of shame. That sort of core sense of shame. And then they come into their relationships. And so I'm curious for you, as you've been on this journey, like how that shame showed up or impacted your relationship in your marriage. Yeah, definitely in a big way. And I see this a lot in my community and with the guys I work with, right? When my wife came with a criticism, not even a criticism, maybe a complaint, fairly innocuous complaint. What I heard was bad husband, bad, bad, right? Because that was the unconscious programming from my childhood. It's like, suck. You'll never be good enough. You'll never be strong enough. know, most interactions with my dad in my formative years ended with me like crying and feeling defeated and feeling like just, I suck. So I definitely brought that into my marriage, which, which is terrible if you think about it for a marriage, right? It means that we were never able to move toward greater connection and greater intimacy because as you know, you know, every complaint, every hard conversation in a marriage is also an invitation like, Hey, let's ratchet up the level of our connection and intimacy here. So, you know, my marriage stayed shallow for a lot of years because I was reactive guy. was defensive guy and I was also avoidant. I think they all kind of go together, right? Like I'm gonna react. I'm gonna tell you why you're crazy. I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. And then passive aggressively because you hurt me, you threatened my very fragile sense of self because you threaten that now I'm gonna hurt you back, you know? And I was sadly the king of, yeah, I'm just gonna disappear if not physically. didn't honestly, I didn't have the courage probably to be that guy. I would disappear emotionally. You know, for days at a time, just withdraw, withhold, ignore my wife. Just, yeah, didn't make for a good marriage, Bryce. And it only took her probably a handful of years, even though she left at the 14 or 15 year mark. I know that very early on it was, you know, looking back, my wife, and I think a lot of women do this, right? They start to create a life apart from the relationship and apart from the marriage and. For my wife, meant starting businesses. We lived in California at the time, buying properties, turning them into rentals. I don't even know if it was conscious, but there was definitely looking back, I can see that. Yeah. At some point she realized this guy is just a dud. Like we are never going to have the marriage I wanted. And so I'm going to start creating something I am excited about because this marriage certainly isn't in that column. Okay. So this all happened. And then you started to change or you started to have new ideas about how relationships can work. So I'm curious, like what happened to you? mean, obviously a divorce is a big wake up call. Yeah. But I wonder like, so from that point, then where did you go from there to sort of come to this place you are today? Down, Bryce. went down. crashed hard. She moved out and it was under the She wasn't trying to deceive me, but I think to soften the blow, was her saying, Hey, I'm having a bit of a midlife crisis. I just got to figure out, you know, so it was the coaching I received at the time was like, her space and it's okay. And as long as you guys put a plan in place, you know, for there to be reconciliation, you guys working on your relationship. within a few days, she made it clear she wanted no part of that. And then less than a week after she moved out, I got served divorce papers. So it was like, Whoa. So I crashed and burned. think I cried every day for six or seven months. Again, never in the presence of my kids, but I stepped away from my job at the time. I ended up taking 18 months off and just living on savings. Initially, I didn't know it was going to be 18 months, but I got up from that bottom and I write about this. I don't give a lot of detail, but in the book I do kind of mention it and it is a foundation of our community. In the community, we call it our sacred vow. But I got up from that place, not knowing what was going to happen with my wife and I, divorce had been filed, but it was four months away from being finalized. But I got up from that place of grief and just decided, you know what? I am going to learn and 100 % own my contribution to the sorry state of our marriage. Now, to be honest, at that time, I still thought she was mostly at fault. So, right, this was the very beginnings of my awakening, so to speak. But what we call in the community, our sacred vow, I've shared it and we do it every morning together, but it's simple. It's, have one goal to grow, evolve. Become a better man, a great man for me, for me first, for my family and for the world. So that vow and what it's led to was birthed in that dark. hit of despair and unofficially that's where kind of what I do today, right? That was 11 years ago, but that's in a sense, that's where it started. I didn't, I had no clue, no aspiration to write, to write anything or ever help other men in this regard. I certainly wouldn't have felt qualified back then, but that was the genesis of it. Okay. Okay. And where are you at now? Like in terms of your, are you single still? I am. Yeah. So if the idea of a relationship even entered my mind, was following quickly on the heels was I'm not going near that right now. Like I am, I already F'ed up my marriage. Like I'm in no condition to jump into a relationship. You know, the little I knew then I knew honestly with my own soul that yeah, that would just be a way to numb the pain and not actually move toward it. And I'm a big proponent of moved toward the pain. So I knew it would be a few years at least. And then as my youngest entered high school, I will just say this again, no blame cast in his mom's direction. If anything, I take ownership. I led us to that terrible place, right? She made some decisions that I wish she hadn't made, but I led us there through my passivity and through my avoidance. But my son was traumatized. Our youngest was really traumatized. And I knew as he entered high school a few years later, I'm a bit of a romantic and I knew if dad gets into a relationship, he will feel like he's been left twice. I just knew it because his sister was already out of the house. There are some years apart and I just knew, you know, coming out of that sacred vow, I knew I had two priorities. One was heal. and grow and become a better man. And the other was to shepherd my son's heart. So literally those 18 months that I took off, part of it was because it was like a rebirth and I was taking soul care classes and I was reading books and I was watching videos and I started journaling and I started breath work and I, you know, just the whole shebang, so to speak. But the other reason I took off 18 months was to be home every day. for my freshman in high school and to be there in the morning and to have breakfast with him and to be there at 2.30 when he got off the bus and to be able to watch a movie with him that night or play Xbox. So it was a lot of Jeff time, personal reflection and growth. And it was also a lot of me and my son time and just trying to help him walk through the pain and the trauma of the divorce and just, again, the way it all went down. So. I'm rambling a little bit, but that's my roundabout answer. And then as he approached graduation, and that's been a couple of years now, I've dated, I'm open, I'm looking, I've been on the apps and then off the apps. I asked a woman at the gym about a month ago for her phone number, didn't see the wedding ring on her finger. That didn't work out. Yeah, but those first eight or nine years, it was like, okay. I'm really clear on my priorities and dating is not one of them right now. And I have no regrets looking back. I've never even once thought, ⁓ was that the right call? No, I know for certainty it was the right call. Okay, great. Well, so you took these 18 months off. You did all this reflection and learning and I guess what, I wonder if there's like a specific moment or a specific insight where you started to realize like, oh, maybe it wasn't all my wife's fault. Maybe I had a part in this on some level or was there a specific book or training or something that like, I mean, I'm sure it was all, you know, all of these things together. It sort of helped you for lack of a better word, wake up. But I'm just curious, like that's such a, it sounds like such a rich time for you to sort of dive in and give yourself that space to really learn about these things that you were learning about. Agreed. And I'm still in it, which is cool. Right. I'm sure I'm still like you. Yeah. Yeah. Which I didn't understood, you know, for the first five decades of my life, you know, looking back, I don't know how, especially in the kind of community I was a part of and my, career was like, how did I go so long without personal evolution becoming a high value? It's still a bit baffling. Although the answer, which is the first lesson in my course, I think is most of us are on autopilot. Yeah. You know, we're just without a practice like journaling, taking time intentionally to reflect and to ask, you know, at the end of the day, what went well, what needs work, what will I do differently next time or tomorrow? I mean, without that, we're just, we're just not conscious, you know, we're just, so that journey of consciousness really, when I got up from the floor and said, I'm going to own 100 % own whatever my part is as it's revealed. Price, was supernatural, it was probably too strong of a word, but in my times of reflection, I'm so thankful for the habit and I continue it to this day about five or six nights a week. It was just during those times because there's still some grief mixed in there, right? We're not divorced yet. then even on the heels of the divorce being finalized. Bryce, was like I would have these moments where I would literally see in my mind's eye, I would see vignettes from the past exchanges between my wife and I and how I handled it and the guy I showed up as. again, whether it's God for some of the guys in your audience, whether it's the universe, whether it's higher intelligence, it was like, I guess my heart and soul were just in the right place of being receptive. And I think my desire to learn was genuine. And I started seeing these vignettes and having this deep sense of without reading books. I wasn't reading books at the time on relationships. I was reading mostly books and watching videos on personal evolution and growth and pushing our limits, getting outside of our comfort zone, learning new things, trying new things, getting uncomfortable, you know, all that stuff. And I would just. Instead of feeling the shame of that memory, would actually in my mind's eye and in my soul kind of know, ⁓ that's what she needed. I wish I could like explain it. And I'm certainly not trying to sound, you know, let's pat Jeff on the back and say, wow, you're amazing. But it just came to me. I wouldn't take credit for it. You know, even writing my books, there were times when I would get up from a chapter and I know you've experienced this, I'm sure with clients and with your work where you're like, Okay, I'm trained to do what I do, meaning you, Bryce, but like, wow, I don't know where that came from, but that was exactly what that person needed in that moment. Yeah. So I was just having those personally. And I was writing about it and reviewing those things. Yeah. Does that answer your question? That's really good. Yeah. One of the things I loved about your book that you did throughout it was this way you would translate. you would describe an action and then you would translate, this is what she's feeling inside. If you do that. Yes. I just loved how you did that because I think it really speaks to this understanding of the feminine experience. Like what's that like? I mean, I could give specifics, but it was just so helpful to read that and think, ⁓ that's not what I want her to think or feel. And yet I still, I can sort of see the behavior and be like, well, what's wrong with that? And then it's like, but if you do that, this is how she's going to experience it. And I thought that was just incredibly insightful and helpful. And I agreed with all of it. was like, ⁓ yeah, that's exactly how my wife feels when I do that. So I loved that. But it was almost like you were translating the feminine in this book in a really beautiful way. that's cool. Yeah. I try to keep it simple. And I know for us guys, right, just seeing it simply spelled out, I do a lot of that translating. And then also here's your wife said this, but let me translate. Here's what she was really. You know, and a lot of, all of that came again, not to take credit, but it just came intuitively. And before I wrote my first book or while I was writing my first book, I did have a group of 20 to 40 men and women, but a lot of women in there where I was sending chapters, emailing chapters to friends and saying, am I close? I missing it by a mile? You know, ladies, especially since I'm kind of speaking for you, help me. And I kept getting the kind of response I just got from you. you know, about your wife, meaning women just saying, how do you know this? Who taught, you know, this is spot on. And so that was my little encouragement just to like, okay, I'm onto something. I don't know how or why, or, somebody's tapping me on the shoulder and saying, keep going. So, and even the book idea for the first one, it came from the insistence of a friend. It was a lot of my journal entries and a close intimate friend from California. few times and we're talking on the phone and he's asking me about my journey. And sometimes I would read little passages from my journal. And one time he didn't know what I was reading from, cause I don't probably didn't announce it. He's like, wow, that is awesome. He said, what are you reading? Thinking, you know, it was a book. said, no, that's my journal. said, dude, he said, you've got to put that in writing. You got to get this stuff out there. And was really out of left field. was like, really? Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it started, honestly. And then I released the first book and I put my contact info in there. And guys started reaching out to me, Hey, do you coach? And I was like, I guess I could, you know? So, wow. That's wonderful. Yeah. That's literally how it started. Bryce. I was painting houses for 25 and 30 and $35 an hour, barely getting by. And I released the first book and yeah, guys started reaching out to me. Wow. That's so cool. Yeah. One of the things I was going to ask you about, I this sort of was interesting is, you you talk a lot about leadership, which I also talk a lot about it with my male clients, you know, taking the lead, you know, being in that masculine energy and taking the lead. One of the things that was really striking to me is this, it wasn't a lot of the book, but it was like a certain part of the book of like wanting more like excitement and novelty and how, and there was a part of the book where you were talking about how like women don't speak directly to what they need or want and that sort of thing. And I have this sense in myself and this is like very like psychological training that I've had of like You're an adult. Exactly. So you think what you need. It's actually very much. And what I loved about it was you were like, what's fun about that? It's so boring. And I was just like struck by that. was like, you're right. It is boring. It's like so much more fun to like give you a little bit of the thing. And then you had to figure it out. Let's say you have to work for it. And I was like, yeah, I want to work for it. And I'm still annoyed by that at times. I have to work for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still annoyed. I'm like, oh, why don't you just tell me that? But. I think there is something about that where it's almost like the feminine is saying, it's not like a test, that's not quite it. It's more just like, I'm gonna give you this and then I want you to work for it. Come work for this, lead me back into connection. And it just really struck me and it really realized like, I was wrong. I think you're right. I think that I need to work on the translation. I need to like take the effort and say, you were saying this and this is what I was getting and let's figure this out. or, you know, figure out myself, but also like not expect this like ease of translation. I think you spoke to that too of like how men, what the man's saying to the woman is like, yeah, I'm done working. I'm not trying anymore. I've got you. I figured out. Yeah. I've cracked the code. Yep. That was probably the quote. And it was like, I just, just tell me what you need and I'll do it, but I'm not going to work for this anymore. I'm not going to try for this anymore. And I just, it really hit me because I know I've done that to my wife. I'm like, Why didn't you tell me that? You didn't say that. You said this and I didn't know you meant that. And then she's just like, what? Why didn't you know? Like figure it out. And I'm just like, no, no, you're an adult. And now I'm like, ⁓ okay. Yeah. I'm going to work. I can keep working. I can't just start being, you know, just giving up and being like, I'm doing enough here. Just, you know, like phoning it in, so to speak. So I just really loved that. I thought that was wonderful. Make this easier for me. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think it is about the feminine that makes that part of their wiring? I mean, go ahead. Well, I think, you know, it's like almost like if you think about it more in an embodied sense, like the feminine shows up almost like in lingerie. Like I'm going to show you some of myself. I'm going to show all of myself. I like that. Yeah. Like I'm going to, I'm going to tease you. I'm going to give you some information, but I want you to work for it. Like you got to come over here and you got to get me excited. If you want this, you gotta work for it. that's what really came to me. was like, cause you know, I think in our physical intimacy, I get that. Like it's like, course, you know, I'm not just like, okay, let's go. It's like, you know, I gotta like bring a leader into that space and you know, we gotta start the whole process of, know, getting each other warmed up and all the beautiful things that go along with that. But it just started, struck me. like, oh, in this world, I feel like I shouldn't have to do that. And like, what's the difference? What's the difference? I'm not sure there's a difference. I am so glad I asked you that question. You just gave me an outline for the chapter in my next book, Bryce. Oh, great. That lingerie picture. I'm going to show you a little and yeah, it's do you care enough to keep pursuing me? Right? Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Are you going to keep pursuing me? Are you going to keep moving in my direction? That is so good. I wrote a post. I write for a men's app called live free. It's an app for men wanting to kick the porn habit. And one of the themes in my last book, right? It's in there a little bit, but we say it a lot in my community, which is stop playing the princess. Stop playing in the princess. playing the princess, like stop being in the role of the princess. Okay. And the woman wants to be in that role. Right. And so I just wrote a post, two story about a client. He and his wife had a little disagreement after putting the kids to bed. It was unsettling. wasn't a major fight, but it was unsettling. And he. Went downstairs to his man cave to play call of duty and just kind of like check out, right? Do the avoidant thing. And a few hours later, his wife came downstairs by this time it's probably, you know, 10 30, 10 45. And she asked him, are you coming to bed? That's all she said. And he said, no. And what I say in that post is he missed it. Right? So he missed a bid for connection. That's what Gottman calls a bid for connection. She wasn't looking for the information. Are you coming to bed now or in five minutes? Right. That was her repair attempt. And what she was really saying in that moment was, Hey, I hate feeling disconnected from you. Would you come upstairs? Even if we don't talk about the spat, you know, would you just cuddle with me? Would you hold me in your arms? I just need to know we're okay. And what I say in the post is, The uninitiated male asks, well, then why didn't she just say that? Right. And, what I say after that is no, that's the wrong question. Here's the right question. Why did she have to descend two flights of stairs into his dark lair? Why did she in the absence of true masculinity have to hastily play the hero and fight for their marriage? Cause that's what was happening. She was fighting for their marriage and you know, it was in a sense, it was very unfeminine of her. But what did he do? He was playing the princess, right? Think of his answer. No. What was he doing? He was playing hard to get, right? He was actually playing the princess and she had to go after him and he, anyway, you get the whole idea. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's part of it. That's part of her DNA, right? Like pursue me, come after me, show me you care, show me I matter. Mm-hmm. I wonder though, this is a thing that I'm curious about from your perspective is that I work with a lot of men who I want to say that they are the primary providers sometimes exclusively the providers. Yeah, they do well. They make you know, good money They take care of their family all that stuff and they often feel like a pretty deep sense of despair or like there's this kind of like emptiness in the side that they don't feel very seen in all of it. They don't feel very acknowledged in all the things that they do. And there's a wanting to, I guess the best word is appreciation or gratitude or something like that, that they rarely get in their life. It's shown up enough that I was like, huh, this seems like a thing. And I was sort of curious about it because I find that my female clients never talk about that. They never like actively looking for some sort of, you know, they want to be seen. But it's not like it's not the same thing. It's like, think in that sort of more male role in our culture of like provider, protector, there's almost like a wanting to be seen of like, you're doing a good job as a man. And I think there's something about that that's, I was gonna say natural. I don't know if that's the right word, but there's something about that that feels like I want to be seen in all that I do, all that I sacrifice, all that I get up every morning and work my ass off for this family and for you and for. making this all work. I just want to be seen in that sometimes. And I think the way they want to be seen, which is maybe different than the feminine is to be seen in their masculine glory. I'm not sure what the words are. Yeah. But I felt like in your book, you were saying, yeah, you really need that. You know, not say that we don't, but like, it was more like, is that what we're going for here? So I'm just curious what you think about that. It's a great question. I think it's one of the reasons it's so important. to be a part of a tribe of men, right? Because we get that from each other. You know, as you were asking your question and setting it up in my head, I was thinking there's probably two different scenarios that sound very similar. And in one case, the one you described, that guy is also, you know, doing the things we've talked about, pursuing her and making his marriage a priority. and walking in his leadership lane and owning the health of the marriage and being the one to plan date nights. I don't mean every time, right? But the one who's going first, as I say in my book. And then there's the guy, right? A lot of the guys that come to my community and I was one of them where it's a little bit like, hey, I do all of this and you should be happy and that should be enough. And why are you so freaking hard to please woman? Right. But it's not coming from a place of there's deep connection, there's intimacy, there's friendship. You know, it's, it's more just like, you're too demanding and I should be getting more from this and out of this, it's not, you know, it's like a victim kind of energy. It's not like, Hey, I want to lead us to a stronger place, better place. I want to get really clear on what your priorities are in this marriage. I'm going to do my best to be clear on what I need more of, yada yada. Yeah. So I think, gosh, I think it's, would you agree? It's like the same scenario, but it's like, really depends on how we're coming at that. Showing up. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think if you're, well, I think here's where the disconnect goes for men is like, they do the things that the culture has directed as swords. Yeah. I make the money, I pay the bills, make sure I lock the door at night, protect my family. What they're not doing though, is they're maybe not leading to connection, all the things you just spoke of. I'm not engaging with my kids, come home, I'm tired. I'm to go sit on my phone, read the newspaper, whatever. And so what they're seeing is that they're doing this thing. And why am I not getting all of this adoration for my efforts? And I've definitely had men in my couples work where the woman is just exasperated because she doesn't get much of anything from this guy. She doesn't get any sort of leadership connection, he just kind of is like, what? God, it's like more for me. And they don't really see how I think the way I try to sort of leverage it is like, this isn't about your wife. This isn't going to make her life better. This is going to make your life a lot better because she's going to feel connected and loved and sexy and fun and playful. It's like, you're not getting all these things because you're not doing these things. And for a lot of these guys, you know, I can sit here and complain about them, but it's not that it's like, they don't have no idea. It's like, that's how their dads were. So I don't really see it as like, there's like this big deficiency. I'm just like, they, they have no idea, but like, it's getting back to my, this is a long drawn out answer to your question, but I think what ends up happening is that when they're asking for that, it feels like this kind of like needy is giving me more instead of coming from this place of like, clarity and groundedness and like, maybe I really want you to see me in my power. I want you to, I want to feel that from you. want to see, you know, that's totally different if I think to sort of see how you're describing it. Yeah. Two things come to mind. If I was a women's coach, I would tell that woman, praise your man. Right. Like I would, I would coach her down that path. Obviously one of the things we say in the community is there comes a point Now I'm coaching guys and my community is for guys in marriage crisis, right? So very different from the books I write. The community and the course is for guys in separation, divorce is pending, yada, yada. But there comes a time on every guy's journey where I will say to that guy, hey, in a grounded, calm, I'm not upset way, but it's appropriate for you to say to your wife, hey, listen, you may not be proud of my changes, but I am. I am. And then walk away. Right. So it's because as you can imagine, right. In my community, the women who are separating from their husbands and the guys that find me, you know, these wives know that, Hey, just cause you put a good week or two together, doesn't mean you're, you're radically different. You know, I know my husband, if he sets a goal, if he's got a target, he'll go all in and he could impress anybody, you know, so it takes time. The average separation in the States is 10 to 15 months. And that's some of the first news my clients get, which they hate, right? They want this thing to be over in maybe two months. And I'm having to tell them upfront, no, we're playing the long game here. One of our little mantras in the community is we're turning a cruise ship, not a kayak, right? Like this is a long, slow turn. But to have that strong masculine sense of I'm owning my crap. And I'm two months in and you may not recognize my changes. You may not be proud of them. You don't need to be. I am. I love what's happening inside me. I love the man I'm becoming. And I think obviously, right, that strong. I think if we can live from that place and we were a part of a tribe of men where we get to acknowledge each other and our hard work and stuff that we're fighting through and the stuff that we're slaying. I think in marriage, the acknowledgement and the praise, yeah, it's important. And I think it should be kind of like the icing on the cake. Like I already have the cake. I already have a strong sense of I'm proud of me and I love it when you acknowledge it, but if you don't, I'm not going to collapse. I'm I'm okay. If you're not acknowledging it, maybe I could. do a better job of just extracting you from the house and the demands of kids and laundry and cooking dinner and packing lunches. Maybe we just need to, you know, maybe we need three or five days out of the house and maybe my wife will be able to show up differently and be like, you know what I haven't told you in a while? You're amazing. Right? Yeah. I like that idea of it being the icing on the cake. think there was like a part of me that could kind of like take care of myself. I have a very self-reliant part of me that's like really good at that. Yeah. As I've deepened in my relationship with my wife, one of the things that's come out though is like wanting more from her in a way, like more emotional, I don't know, depth or connection or something and wanting to be seen in some of these things. Whereas I think in the early part of my relationship with her, it was very much about, I got it, I'll just take care of myself. And that's just, that's my natural state. That's part of my developmental trauma was I just had to take care of myself a lot. And so I'm sort of bringing up as a personal question because I'm wondering about like, don't know if I deserve quite yet the icing on the cake. I think I got a few more, maybe decades of working on this shit. But I do think that there's something about the feminine seeing the masculine at that. I still haven't quite formulated. So that's kind of what I'm coming out of. like, what is that moment where, you know, I've done that in couples therapy where I've had the woman speak to the man. and say, you know, just like, see you, I see you, you're a good man. Stuff like that, like over and over again. And the shame and the pain and often tears come up. It's just like really powerful to be seen like that for men. And so, I don't know, I'm still working with this one. I'm still curious. I like what you said. I'm just like, hmm, what do I want from my wife? I'm not even sure exactly what it is. In your estimation, you know, the scenario just described in the tears and the emotion. You think that has more or less or equal to do with he's never heard it from her or it's been five years. And so this is washing him and, or do you think it's part of his broken record from the past? Right. Like mine is you suck. So for an adult, just to say, I see you, you matter. I appreciate you. This family is lucky to have you. What do you think? I'm just curious. Yeah. I mean, I think. It's definitely both. think what happens, and this is maybe leading to my next question, because I really appreciate this part of your book too, is that we are attached to our parents and we get wounded in that relationship. And we attach to our partners and we play out all the bullshit that we didn't work out with our parents. And so there's a definite a place of feeling that love and connection with our partners. that starts to heal the love and connection we maybe didn't get with our original attachment people. And so when that happens, I think it's, it's both like the longing to feel like I'm a good man. Like there's a longing to feel that on some level. And then also for a lot of these men, there's just a well of shame that has come out of their original, their family of origin and has led them to feel, you know, all the things that you talked about at the beginning of like why it was so hard to show up in your. in your marriage. So I think when that happens, just pokes all of that and it just, and it's so healing because it's like, ⁓ so really. Yeah, it's so healing. And just to say to your audience as a quick aside, I'm certainly not saying don't share your needs with your wife, right? If anything, me and the guys that come into my community, initially that's been an area where they have failed miserably, right? Just speaking up, speaking up for self and saying, Hey, when you, I, or, know, this is what I would really love more of this means a lot to me. It's actually initiating those conversations. So many guys just never do. And then we become that shook up Coke bottle of resentment, right? Yeah. Yeah. So just to say to your audience, yeah, listen, hey, everything Bryce is talking about is legitimate and real. And we do need that from our spouse. And if you need more, let her know, let her know. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So partly on that is this sense that I really loved. And you just, said it. here too, which I'm really appreciating is I bring this to my clients sometimes and they're a little bit like surprised by it. You know, it's a little question of like, what is the point of marriage? What is the point of like deep relationship? And for a lot of people, it's like, well, you know, companionship, we like each other, we hang out, we have sex, we have a family, we take, you know, we steward our kids through this world and it's all very practical. And I often say, oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, all that. That's true. But you guys picked each other because you're going to help each other grow. That's why you picked each other. And so it's actually quite, I want to say, I was going say astonishing, not astonishing, but like, they're like, whoa, I've never even thought of it like that. Yeah. And I'm like, that's why. And, you know, I talk about the sort of that, you know, alchemical kind of thing that happens where, you know, you bring these two people together and then all this conflict and differences and stuff goes on, creates all this heat and that creates change. Yeah. Right. And as that heat comes up, what happens is then we start to grow and we start to change and slowly all that trauma starts to get healed and all that waste starts to move out. And so that's really why we are in relationship. I was just, I was thinking of this one client, I was talking about all this and he was like, why hasn't anybody ever told me that I never knew any of this. I was like, well, you know, it's not like super new. This is like, you know, from the Imago, I don't know if you know the background of this kind of theory. It's this Imago theory that they came up with back in the day and probably in the sixties or seventies. But it is like, to me, it really sort of creates this notion of relationship as the, like the foundation or the way in which you are going to evolve to your best self. when you're pissed at this person, just remember. whatever she's doing to you is to help you become a better person. Now it doesn't seem like that in the moment. Sure as hell doesn't seem like that in the moment. ⁓ But that's why she's in your life. And that's why you picked her. And I just loved that. I love that idea because it's like, ⁓ you know, like I think about my relationship with my wife and I'm like, so incredibly grateful because nothing, no amount of meditation or therapy or breath work or anything could even come close to how much she has. opened me up to my core self and made me more and more of the, like the best person I can be. And like, I can never even imagine, there's no way could repay her for that. It's it's amazing. And so I think that that idea and I didn't get, there was definitely that was in your book. I think it just is so helpful for men to understand like, no, no, no, no, she's not fucking with you. She's helping you become your best self. That hit me years ago, like a ton of bricks. And I think it was crystallized with a quote that I included in the book. I believe I know it's in the community, Nate Bagley. He's a, okay. It's in the book. Yep. He's a Gottman disciple, but I remember seeing that quote, the point of marriage isn't happiness. It's growth. And that not only hit me personally, but I remember having this thought like universally, like, ⁓ my freaking like. That would change the world. That would change marriage across the board if I'm stepping into this relationship knowing it's way more than the good moments, the comfort, the predictability, the familiarity, the sex, the intimate. But it's like, yeah, all that's great. And the priority is I get to grow. Being my age and being single, It's not that I'm this amazing guy, but I say to the guys in our community all the time, you guys are part of the 1%. If you think of our world, it's rare that people are conscious. It's rare that people are leaning into pain and criticism and discomfort and have this high value to own everything they can own and to grow and to become better, more generous, kinder, more compassionate humans. We might all agree or subscribe to that as an idea, right? But it's a very small percentage of people, as you know, who are actually living that way. So in the same way I say to the guys in the community, you guys are part of the 1%. Like you invested in a course in community, not just to win your wife back, but to become the kind of man she would be attracted to again one day, right? That's very different than. Here's five things, do these and win your wife back, right? Here's a bunch of gimmicks. You know, the first thing they learn in the course is like, no, there's no gimmicks here. You're to learn some very practical things for your separation, what to say, what not to say, what to do, what not to do. But the long play is you're going to grow into the kind of man your wife will, all the words you've talked about, admire, respect and adore one day. So I tell those guys, you're the 1%. Most guys, the 99, They're playing video games. They're scrolling their phone. They're out there sleeping around. They're hooking up with divorced women, right? They're drinking. They're looking at porn. And so what you find out in the world is it's a very small group of people who are growth oriented. You know, I have a list of nine things that I kind of recite fairly often of what I'm looking for in a woman. And it goes like this warm, affectionate, kind, caring, beautiful, sexy, learning. Growing, Bryce, those last three were not on my list for the first 55 years of my life. Right. But now, now that I realize, ⁓ like as a single guy, you could give me the first six, warm, caring, kind, compassionate, beautiful, sexy. If she doesn't have those three learning, growing, evolving, committed to that beyond me, beyond meeting me, but this is already in place and a part of her MO. We're just not going to be a good fit. We're just not going to be a good fit because I am all about what you're talking about. I wasn't right for the first 50, 55 years of my life, but now it's like, you know what? I don't want to be single. I'm not like even choosing it. I would rather share my life with someone, but I would choose singleness over a relationship without this foundation. And I will also say as a single guy, it's the one thing I miss most. jealous of my clients when they bring me these friction moments. like, ⁓ man, even though I'm working on myself, even though I'm proud of my growth and I've come so far, ⁓ I'm not getting what they're getting and I really miss it. It's one of the reasons I moved back to New Jersey and I live close to my family. My four siblings and my mom are all close by and there's a lot of friction all the time. So I don't have the romantic relationship. And I do understand obviously that's a whole different level that I still don't have, but it is great having a family around because we're always pushing each other's buttons and there's always opportunities to grow. know, that's beautiful. Become better people. Yes. Yes. We are wounded in relationships and we heal. in relationships. That's it right there. Yeah. I'm curious as we're, got about eight more minutes here. I'm curious, like, what would you say to some men, you probably say this to some of your men, but if you, if you could pick just right now off the of your head, what's one thing that you would encourage men to do to start to move in the direction we've been speaking of today? It's one thing that really it's been helpful for you or something that really stands out for you. That's easy. You know, I referred to it at the outset. It's the thing that has changed my life, which is building the reflection habit. There is no long-term growth, substantial growth without that reflection habit. Sitting with a blank piece of paper, a journal or a notebook, you know, 15 minutes at the end of every day. Again, could be simple questions. We have the three that we ask in the community, but we're always changing it up depending on the season. We introduced two new questions this week. They're some of the best I've ever heard in my life. So I'll just share them with your audience. Here's the first one that we've all been sitting with as a community. If a third party were to observe you up close just for a week, what would they say your priorities are? It's a great one. That's the first one. And the second one is this. If you were starring in a movie of your life, what would the audience be screaming at you to do right now? Wow. Isn't that powerful? Right? know, in Notting Hill, it's go after her, right? What? You just told Julia Roberts to hit the road? What are you crazy? Go, go, go. Right. In the horror film, it's don't go down there. Right. Oh, those are powerful. Those are powerful. So we're always, you know, you want to keep it fresh. You don't want to answer the same three questions every night for 10 years. the You know, if you want to start the three that we use are I think powerful. We always start off with five minutes or so of gratitude. So just writing down from that, eh? five to 10 things from that day. I mean, if you think of one from a week ago, fine, but it could be the sun was out today. I live in New Jersey, right? It could be my niece texted me and invited me to her basketball game. It could be I'm grateful for just 10 minutes with my son in the kitchen when he was acting silly and we were laughing our asses off. So it's gratitude. And then it's looking back at the day and asking what went well, what needs work. And what will I do differently next time? Right. So it's in coaching. call it game film, right? Tom Brady's considered the greatest of all time because he watched more game film than anyone. It's looking objectively. It's not beating myself up. It's saying, you know what? I was really short with my son today. Where did that come from? ⁓ you know what? I was pissed because this client broke his appointment, whatever the case may be. Right. But it's just. It's practicing being conscious, which is where we started this podcast, right? So it's building that consciousness reflection habit. It's keeping autopilot at bay, knowing it's always there just to make us and keep us automatons going through the motions, not considering the important things, majoring on the minors, pushing aside the things that matter, right? I think I write about this in the book, maybe in my first book, but it's like, We were always going to have a vacation soon, right? Work was always going to slow down next month. And so I was that guy and most of us are that very kind of heads down. We don't take time just to look up and think and be conscious. So that's my five minute answer to your question. That's really good. It's actually inspiring me to take up journaling again. I haven't done it for awhile. I appreciate that. My gratitude practice. You know, one of the things that strikes me too, like I think sometimes these things we talk about can feel like just maybe to somebody like sort of insurmountable, know? Yeah. I think it's just like anything, you know, I often will say, you know, it's like, talk a lot about like nervous system regulation and like, you know, being aware of your body and things like, so you can regulate your body. I'm like, it's not that much different than hitting a tennis ball. You know, you just keep doing it and it gets easier. And I think, I think the other thing is that like with, you know, being more conscious, it gets this point. I think maybe you can agree. Like I don't, I can't check out. It's like, can't, I just can't like be like, ⁓ I don't need to deal with this. I mean, I could, like, I could do that, but it's so against my state now that it would be so difficult to do. you, so you get to this point where it's not like such an effort, you know, but in the beginning it is, there's a lot of effort, a lot of work. to kind of keep you in that state of awareness and reflection and understanding. But then you get to a place where I feel like, you know, I'm 53, I still got a lot of work to do. Don't trust me and don't, nobody should think that I've a lot of to do. But I do feel that there's like almost like a mechanism in me or I've reached some level of consciousness where I don't have to work as hard at it as I did in the early stages of my life. know? Totally agreed. It becomes our In the community, we say new second nature, right? Yeah. So if you're practicing generosity, stinginess used to come easy, right? Holding on tight to the little you have that came easy because you did it for years. was part of the automatic programming. But once you start kind of pushing your brain in new directions, in this case, generosity over time, generosity becomes your, your new default mode network. It's easier in the checkout line to pay someone a compliment. Be generous. It's just, does become easier over time. agree. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And the community you keep referencing, is that like the people you work with or is there like a group of people you meet with on a regular basis? Yeah. So we, about two years ago, I launched it. spent two years writing a course for men who are again in crisis and my books are for anybody, right? You can be in a pretty good marriage and still I think get a lot out of my books. But the course, the guys that were coming to me, which makes sense, are the ones in crisis. So for six or seven years, I'd been coaching men in crisis, coaching them through separation with the goal obviously to become better men and also to mend or heal and restore that marriage. And I reached the point where the demand just became too great. And so I spent kind of, you know, 18, 20, 22 months just compiling my notes from the last six years and saying, okay, let's have a lesson on this, a lesson on this. So I put it all online. So it's 38 lessons, a bunch of eBooks that support the lessons, a bunch of videos, and it's all housed with our community platform. And so it's a private app. Guys have it on their laptop and on their phone. It's just us. And the course is there. The videos are there. post new content regularly. The guys can post, hey, how to win this weekend, wanted to share it with the group. The next guy can say, really struggling with X, does anyone have advice? And so, yeah, it's going great. We do two group coaching calls a week with me. So they're getting a lot of bang for their buck. And every week, every month, we've got some awesome success stories. And the cool thing is about the community, I know you've seen this in men's work is, A lot of the guys that have seen what they would look back at and call a miracle, right? Cause they came home to a note on the kitchen counter and the wedding ring on top of the note. And you know, I've already met with an attorney. Those guys are having, it's not that they fixed their old marriage. They took it out back, shot it in the head. And now they've actually built something really wonderful in its place. A lot of those guys, not all of them, but a lot of them want to give back. So the cool thing is when it started, it was kind of just me, you know, coaching a lot of guys. And now it's me and you know, 10 or 15 others were staying in there and encouraging and sharing their stories. So it's cool. I love it. It's not the only community obviously of its kind. Sure. know it's yours, Tim Wade and those guys, they have something similar, but yeah. So that's kind of my main work that takes most of my time is that community, but I love it. So rewarding, so fulfilling. Well, I'll put all that in the show notes here. Cool. So if you guys want to check it out, please reach out to Jeff if you're interested. Jeff, I just want to thank you for your time and your thoughts and your reflections. I really think you're doing really amazing work in the world and I really appreciate everything you're doing. And I'm glad we got a chance to get this in a podcast so some people can listen to it and get some ideas about how to make changes in their own lives. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Bryce. I'm so glad we got to meet. I'm so glad I had this opportunity to speak to your audience. Hopefully there's some help and some takeaways here for the guys in your community. And I look forward to meeting you in person at the summit. Yeah, great. That's awesome. All right, man. Thank you so much. All right, brother. Thank you. Okay. See you. Thank you for listening today. Please take a moment to like and follow so we can continue to change the world by changing ourselves. Have a wonderful day.